Netanyahu Continues Vicious

by craig on April 24, 2014 6:27 pm in Uncategorized

I should start by saying that I deeply regret, and have always regretted, the support for Hamas amongst Palestinians.  I view Hamas as a nasty organization espousing an unpleasant and narrow version of Islam, and far too ready to turn to violence.  I regret the passing of the secular minded and sophisticated wide culture of the urbane Palestinian elite of my youth.

I understand that Palestinian willingness to embrace the limiting certainties of Hamas is due to the appalling pressure caused by decades of unspeakable violence and repression by Israel, the squeezing of Palestinians into ever-shrinking over-crowded reservations, the killings, the continual unrelenting humiliation, the deliberate destruction of all economic base.  I understand Hamas won support through social programmes.  I understand the extreme corruption of the Fatah leadership, where some seemed to do very nicely out of the disaster that repressed everybody else.  I understand the role of Israel and the US in promoting the initial growth of Hamas to weaken the Palestinian cause.  My regret is that they succeeded.

Personally I doubt that this latest Hamas/Fatah rapprochement will last any longer than the previous ones.  Even for a people in the direst situation, there will always be self-seeking sociopaths emerging as leaders.

But even with all that, the appalling smug reaction of Netanyahu is sickening.  Israel at no stage had the slightest intention of entering any meaningful peace process, stopping settlement building, or reducing the dispossession and discrimination suffered by Arabs of all sorts within Israel itself.  The World’s most vicious and unrelenting theological and racist state continues to be just that.  The United States was not in any sense genuinely involved in abetting a peace process; it was managing the process of genocide of the Palestinians, drawn out over decades, just conducted with enough disguise to allow the mainstream media to pretend it is not happening.

I do not like Hamas, but they remain morally superior to Netanyahu on every conceivable measure.

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  1. doug scorgie

    24 Apr, 2014 - 6:47 pm

    Not much hope of restarting “peace talks”

    “Israeli minister Bennett says Fatah-Hamas unity deal makes Palestinian Authority ‘largest terror group in the world’”

  2. Hamas are freedom fighters. If not for them the plague would have spread.

  3. Spot on Craig. The attempted slow motion extermination of the Palestinians. is one of the most disgusting crimes of the ‘modern’ world.

  4. lucythediclonius

    24 Apr, 2014 - 7:24 pm

    Subeditor needed for the first paragraph

  5. lucythediclonius

    24 Apr, 2014 - 7:40 pm

    I regret the (passing of) the secular minded and sophisticated wide culture of the urbane Palestinian elite of my youth.
    suggested amendment in brackets if I read your intention right

  6. Lucy

    I believe that what I wrote means what you said – perhaps I am using regret in a fashion now arcane. Anyway, have made the edit you helpfully suggest to be clear!

  7. lucythediclonius

    24 Apr, 2014 - 8:17 pm

    Tricky business subediting I can just about get that reading.Good sentiment though I was beginning to wonder if secular minded Palestinians were a figment of my imagination.

  8. Excellent post, Craig. At least on Palestine we can agree 100 per cent!

  9. Fantastic post – completely agree.

    What did John Kerry think he could ever achieve?

    Israel will never accept any peace settlement. Divest and sanctions are the only way.

  10. Meet Dave, Your Christian ‘Dyno-Rod’
    But don’t expect him to unblock the Holy Land sewer
    by Stuart Littlewood
    April 23rd, 2014

    Over the Easter holidays the UK’s prime minister, David Cameron, was on his knees “doing God” in the run-up to European elections. And he sparked a great commotion in the media by claiming Britain is “a Christian country”.

    Cameron wrote in the Church Times : “I believe we should be more confident about our status as a Christian country…. more evangelical about a faith that compels us to get out there and make a difference to people’s lives.” Belief in Christianity, he said, could inspire us to change people’s lives and improve both the spiritual, physical, and moral state of the world.

    He has certainly helped make a big difference to people’s lives across the globe. Cameron was among those who stupidly voted for war with Iraq, which caused mega-death and destruction, shredded the lives of everyone there and wrecked their ancient civilisation. He went on the prod in Libya with generally disastrous consequences for its people. He was itching to bomb Syria but, mercifully, Parliament stopped him. And he has inflicted vicious sanctions on the Iranians, with the intention of ruining their economy, for no reason except Israel and America wished it. Now he wants to mix it with the Russians without knowing the facts.


    The comments are good too.


    The opening of the 10pm News was unwatchable. Huw Edwards presenting, Jeremy Bowen with Netanyahu (with bits of film of Hamas and the IDF in action) and all the while the Americans being portrayed as the peacemakers who have failed in spite of all of Kerry’s efforts!

  11. Wonderfully written piece, Craig. Thank you. Hamas is indeed, not my first choice for leadership, and does, as you say, espouse a narrow view of Islam. But equally, had the Palestinians not been pushed, had the PLO not been made powerless there would have been no need for Hamas. So Israel has only itself to blame for their rise to power – the people saw them as a group that was prepared to stand up to Israel, even if they didn’t like the way they were doing it, as I’m sure they don’t.

    (And as for your comment on Lucy’s post – I agree with you both. I think that this particular use of “regret” is out of fashion & so misunderstood. I would have used the word “miss”)

  12. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Apr, 2014 - 11:42 pm

    Re Mary’s post at 22h11, two comments:

    1/. What exactly is wrong about Cameron saying that Britain is a Christian country and that we should feel more confident about our status as a Christian country? The majority of British people are, at least nominally, of the Christian faith and adherents of other religions are a minority (and not even a very large minority). Would Mary bother to write in and protest if the Presidents of, say, Iran or Pakistan said that Iran and Pakistan are Muslim countries? It would only be objectional if that statement were accompanied by political, economic, civic or religious discrimination against non-Christians.

    2/. I also happened to see The News at 10 this evening and fail to see why Mary is getting her knickers in a twist. The news story this evening is that Israel is apparently suspending/ending the current round of peace talks and therefore it is hardly surprising that the Israeli Prime Minister should have been interviewed. I suspect she found the news item “unwatchable” (but she nevertheless watched it) mainly because Bowen failed to condemn the Israeli action – which is not his or the BBC’s job. But she can of course correct me with more detailed analysis if she feels I dozed off for a crucual minute or two during the item.

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    24 Apr, 2014 - 11:45 pm

    By the way, I should have added that Dr Hanan Ashrafi – of whom I’m sure you’ve all heard – was also given airtime for the Palestinian reaction (and not much less time than was given to Netanyahu if memory serves.
    I note that Mary forgot to mention that in her very careful analysis!

  14. BrianFujisan

    25 Apr, 2014 - 1:26 am

    Well it’s deffo Netenyahu…

    i wonder what spy lip-reading translators are on per hour…

    Hab is that not an old thing of your’s… the Lady’s Under ware thing…. Give it a rest eh.

    Netenyahu was talking to a family in the West Bank settlement of Ofra. While he thought the cameras weren’t running he let his true colours really shine through and boasted about derailing the Oslo peace process, described American forieng policy as easily manipulated and said the only way to deal with the Palestinians was “beat them up, not once but repeatedly, beat them up so it hurts so badly, until it’s unbearable”

  15. Is it true that Israeli intellegence sources claim to run Hamas? Indeed, it might even have been Netanyahu who made such a claim. I ask in open enquiry, I genuinely don’t know. The world of the security services is strange indeed. I’m reading about Kim Philby just now, and the skullduggery is astounding.

    I still recall Natanyahu from Gulf War 1. Yup, he was an oft-quoted spokesman on the bbc, giving us his insights, if I recall correctly, on an almost daily basis. Interesting that he became so powerful isn’t it? One might say he was being fast-tracked from a very early age. He was – and is – hugely articulate and smart, of course, but that’s to be expected.

  16. Great post Craig.

    But be prepared for a Habba and Co induced troll inundation.


  17. Kelly ben Maimon

    25 Apr, 2014 - 3:52 am

    Have always enjoyed reading your commentary, on a number of topics. Your writing style is incredibly appealing, humourous and witty at times. However, wholeheartedly disagree with your views on Israel 110%, AND always will. As for Jives’ contribution “…be prepared for a Habba and co induced troll inundation. LOL.” Whatever old chap.. Incidentally, can you hurry up with tea, as I’m sure some of us would like a drink. Thanking you in advance, of course.

  18. @

    Here is the recording of last night’s 10pm News on BBC1 available until 10.30pm tonight.

    I did find the segment ‘unwatchable’ as I said and switched off. I had not seen the follow up with Bowen live in Jerusalem speaking to Edwards in the studio until seeing the recording just now.

    The whole segment, including opening headlines, lasted for over 6 minutes. I must have blinked when the Palestinian lady came on! That was all of 20 seconds.

    It was yet another ZBC ‘Israel Says’ production in which Netanyahu dominated. The only thing missing was the loquacious and lying Regev.

  19. Agree with you Craig. Netanyahu does not want peace. The peace process is a means of ethnic cleansing slowly but surely and making the facts on the ground what they are. There is no state left for the Palestinians. There are two open air prisons with the odd village still to be cleansed in between.
    Had there been the UN & TV around during the Indian wars in the early US , it would have been a similar situation.We’ve been watching it happen since 1947 and before.Instead of punishing Israel the EU give them special status.The only real Semites in Israel, the Bedouin, are also being dispossessed but Israel has the patent on “anti-semitism”.
    And with the Israeli mindset,(the Samson option)they’ll destroy the whole place rather than share or hand it back.
    And Blair,The White Hse and Congress support this fascist mafia that run the land of milk and honey.But there are glimmers of hope. People like Shlomo Sand, Gilad Atzmon and Ilan Pappe are a constant thorn reminding the Israeli’s that they’ve become what they hated most.

  20. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 7:39 am


    “But be prepared for a Habba and Co induced troll inundation.”

    Do grow up.

  21. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 7:55 am

    Mary (06h45)

    Yes, anyone who’s interested should watch the while of the BBC’s news item – it’s always a good idea to watch the whole of an item (and not just a “segment”)before commenting on its content and balance.

    For example, there were also shots of Israeli police manhandling Palestinian demonstrators, which I should hardly have thought constituted pro-Israel propaganda.

    Two further points:

    – Regev is a govt spokesman: spokesmen usually speak in the absence of their master. In the news item, Nehanyahu spoke so there hardly seems to have been a need for his spokesman to appear as well

    – how does Mary think such a news item should be run? Should every such item be preceded by a scholarly disquisition on the origins and history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

    Mary’s comments tend to suffer by often focussing on form rather than on content.

  22. Check back to what I said why don’t you.

    “(with bits of film of Hamas and the IDF in action)”

    I could have made much more of the ‘IDF in action’ but refrained.

    Regev is a motormouth and a useful tool who made aliyah from Australia and appears so often on ZBC radio and television, one could assume he is on the payroll. The lines never go down or go dead when he is on as I expect people have noticed. That is not the case with speakers opposing the mainstream line, often cut off in midstream. ‘Oh. We are sorry. We appear to be having trouble with the line there….! So transparent, it’s laughable.

    You are correct Jives about the trolling. Being told to ‘grow up’ by one of them is also laughable.

    ‘Habbabkuk’s comments tend to suffer by ALWAYS focussing on form rather than on content” LOL

  23. Broadly agree with what you say.

    However I hope you are wrong about the merger being ill-fated.

    Regarding the US it is possible to be quite a careful student of the Palestine situation and not realise the extent to which the US load the dice in favour of the Israelis. I’m not sure this applied to Carter but that was a long time ago.

    Clayton Swisher, part of the US team at the Clinton negotiations blew the gaff in his book ‘The Truth about Camp David’.

    Before I read this I had been inclined to agree with the widely accepted view that Arafat blew the negotiations by bad faith. Swisher suggests the Palestinians were put in an impossible situation.

  24. Kelly,

    Than you for the kind remarks. Commenters who disagree with me are always very welcome to express their views. It would be a dull blog otherwise! As I often say, I would worry deeply about anybody who agrees with me about everything, particularly as I, like all honest people, am continually trying to work out the correct response to the changing ethical dilemmas which the world poses.

  25. Zionists accuse the BBC of being pro-Arab (‘Al-Beebera’).

    Anti-Zionists accuse the BBC of being pro-Israel (‘ZBC’).

    What both sides want is a BBC that acts as a mouthpiece for their ‘side’.

    If the BBC upsets them both then it is probably balancing its reporting about right.


    Least common words, Build and create.

    Detrimentalist not fundamentalist.


  27. @Anon

    Yes, everybody will assume the BBC is biassed rather than they are wrong about something. Cogitative dissonance will mould reality to fit someone’s beliefs.

  28. Craig, what do you mean by “narrow version of Islam”?

    Islam is exactly what it says it is in all of the Qur’an and the Sunnah/Hadith. A “narrow version of Islam” implies that there are parts of the faith that are denied and this could lead to accusations of apostasy. I’d like to see some evidence of Hamas being a narrow branch of Islam. Are there any Muslim critics of Hamas in relation to their conformity with Islam?

    There is no prospect of peace for Palestinian people in a future Palestinian state while they are held in the grip of an intolerant belief system and under the thumb of a military aggressor that wishes to dispossess them of all their lands.

  29. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 10:35 am

    Any attempt at reunification of Hamas and Fatah must appal Israel. It’s been Israel’s consistent objective to keep the Palestinians as clearly divided as possible. I hope the Palestinians now realise that unity is strength (though, like Craig, I’m not optimistic and there will always be splinter groups to fire a bottle rocket into an Israeli field and be equated with Hamas in the Israeli subconscious.

    Israeli spite was manifested, as usual, after the announcement:
    They didn’t say who they were aiming at, though it would probably have been Hamas, and in any case they missed, killing civilians. Again.

    Where’s our Northern Ireland hero* when you need him? Wasn’t MEDIAtor Blair in favour of including the IRA in peace talks? No sign of that approach here.

    * No, I don’t mean Mo Mowlem. She just did the hard work and took the risks. I mean the pretty straight kinda guy who took all the credit.

  30. Unless someone has visited Gaza (well nigh impossible now unless you work for the media) or lived there, they can have no appreciation of what a physical hellhole it is where 1.7m people are imprisoned. Yet lives are lived somehow and the people possess ‘sumud’. Daily there are outages of power, undrinkable water and reliance on UNWRA for basic foodstuffs.

    How much longer Netanyahu before these ‘drugged cockroaches in a bottle’, as Eitan described them, are released?

    Rafael Eitan, 75, Ex-General and Chief of Staff in Israel, Dies

    So far in 2014, 18 Gaza Palestinians have been killed and 110 injured in Israeli attacks


    Wonder which government and relations with whom? Hope it’s not Kensington Green!

  32. Jemand – well, to give a single example, the punishment for adultery prescribed in the Koran is not death, it is a short period of confinement. The Koran is actually way in advance of its time in equality of women (remember Muhammad’s wife was an older woman and a merchant in her own right). What has happened to Islam is it has been overlain by practices which are purely tribal custom – just as David Cameron’s policies have bugger all to do with Christianity.

    In a wider sense, the great cosmopolitan culture in which Omar Khayyam, Rumi and Ibd Sinna worked (to name but three) which was way in advance of the West in its day, got crushed by the obscurantism of an uneducated clergy who gained tribal influence.

    A large topic. Forgive the cartoon description.

  33. A question for the particularly fervent Israel obsessives:

    I’ve had a quick look at the IHRRI country rankings by human rights record and there are about 154 countries below Israel on that list. I very seldom see any of you comment on any one of those countries, and never with the intense animosity you reserve for the Jewish homeland.

    Why do you single out Israel in this regard? I could understand were you Palestinian, but you live comfortable lives thousands of miles away in places like Surrey and yet of all the places in the world you could exercise your considerable spare time to admonish, you go for Israel, every time.

    Why is that?

  34. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 11:53 am

    there are about 154 countries below Israel on that list.

    And 55 above it, including China, and the Russian Federation. Only 1% behind is Venezuela… Indicating a pretty low bar, which Israel, though asserting its aspirations to join the EU, fails to clear. Perhaps if Israel didn’t make such a fuss about being a beacon of democracy and civilised values yadayada, it might be easier to overlook its private shooting range in Gaza, its thousands of prisoners held indefinitely without charge or access, or its clandestine nukes.

    And I note that many who deplore the dual standards on which Israel operates, and its creeping ethnic cleansing, are just as free with their criticism of inconsistencies in their own countries.

    You want to be judged as a pluralistic democracy? Be one. Meanwhile, here comes the cavalry to apply yet more pressure to the dispossessed. John Wayne meets fish in barrel.

  35. Anon

    I think you will find that ranking excludes what happens in Gaza and West Bank, where Israel makes life hell for the people. That might give you a clue.

  36. Craig

    Palestine is 87th.

  37. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 12:08 pm

    Palestine is 87th.

    Suddenly Palestine exists! If only as a sink for embarrassing statistics…

    Doesn’t address Craig’s point though, does it?

  38. “And 55 above it, including China, and the Russian Federation. Only 1% behind is Venezuela… Indicating a pretty low bar, which Israel, though asserting its aspirations to join the EU, fails to clear. Perhaps if Israel didn’t make such a fuss about being a beacon of democracy and civilised values yadayada, it might be easier to overlook its private shooting range in Gaza, its thousands of prisoners held indefinitely without charge or access, or its clandestine nukes.”

    China and Russia are marginally above Israel, and yet China receives no criticism here and of course the sun shines out of Putin’s arse. Venezuala is another fave and all 154 countries below Israel are barely ever touched upon by the Israel obsessives, excepting Uzbekistan which is of special interest to the blog. You are totally obsessed with Israel.

    Needless to say, Israel is a “beacon of democracy” when compared to the states surrounding it, all of which feature well below it in the rankings.

  39. Mhara Castello

    25 Apr, 2014 - 12:34 pm

    Anon-1st post; “Why do you single out Israel in this regard? I could understand were you Palestinian, but you live comfortable lives thousands of miles away in places like Surrey and yet of all the places in the world you could exercise your considerable spare time to admonish, you go for Israel, every time”.

    “Why is that?”

    Good God. I’m about to throw up. Seriously. No wonder you’re ‘Anon’.

  40. Well written Craig, Netanyahu will destroy his own base by refusing to talk about peace negotiations, his own supporters accuse him having wasted ten years with silence.
    The only thing I find dubious about Hamas is its inception and who was involved. That it now has morphed is also understandable, but who is pulling their strings?

    Now O/T a live ticker in German on the Spiegels website tells me that Kiev, since 11:47 this morning is preparing to blockade, what they call is the centre of the rightwing rebels, Slavajansk. They are also raising the sceptre of WW3 as Russia is trying to stop the rubel loosing value.

    Kiev has been warning Russia this morning that ‘any Russian border violations would be dealt with as a military invasion and the attackers will be destroyed’ Sergey Pashinski said in lieu for the Kiev president.

    The wall street journal paywall speaks of a Local politician who was tortured and murdered after raising the Ukrainian flag against the will of the rebels.

    This situation, with Russia’s economy in the dumps, is getting worse every moment and I’m acutely aware that I’m living downwind from the main US logistical hub for their nukes in the EU, at Mildenhall….;)

  41. Mhara Castello

    Re spare time, Surrey, and a fixation with Jews/Israel above all else, you’re probably not familiar with the reference.

    Why “throw up” when you have it pointed out to you that 154 countries below Israel on human rights receive next to no attention from the Israel obsessives here? Are you sick?”

  42. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 12:56 pm

    You are totally obsessed with Israel.

    So are you, by the look of it.

    But I don’t see Freedom ‘n Democracy, Inc, giving $3Bn of its taxpayers’ money to Russia, China, Venezuela et al annually, do you?* I don’t see a slavish regard by our leaders for the finer nuances of Venezuela’s suffering and the importance of ensuring that it becomes the regional superpower, do you? I don’t see the America Russia Public affairs Committee leaning on US congressmen and stuffing their campaign chests with money, do you?

    * Just Egypt, on condition that now that democratic nonsense has been forgotten, it helps Israel blockade Gaza…

    Israel is the closest festering sore we’ve got. Other problems come and go, but Israel has been poisoning the region for – at the kindest estimate – 50 years, and it is being propped up by MY government. I have a right to worry.

  43. Mhara Costello is not as sick as you appear to be, puppy anon.

    Read the thread, has it got anything to do with Kommunist rebels in India or the Phillipines? Does it speak of the forces that challenge Maduro, or of the 200 unfortunate hostages taken by a group of radicals in Nigeria, NO, it is about Netanyahu’s self destructive moves and the worlds arch conflict, not my term. I’d call it fascism.
    try and keep up.

  44. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 1:05 pm

    Israel is a “beacon of democracy” when compared to the states surrounding it, all of which feature well below it in the rankings.

    It’s a beacon of democracy compared to a collection of states which have never pretended to be democracies. Well done you. And it’s 5% ahead of Kazakhstan. Five. Per. Cent. Pfft. Think you’d better tell your boss the IHRRI is antisemitic…

  45. Nevermind

    “Read the thread”

    You’d have a point if every thread not about Israel wasn’t quickly diverted to the favourite hobby horse – Israel.

  46. Nevermind

    Anyone familiar with your dark, Germanic mutterings on these pages knows you are the one with the sick and twisted mind.

    Eg, I disagree with you on the West as the root of all evil and what do you do? Compare me with an American serial rapist and murderer.

    I mention that I have the odd flutter on the horses and what do you say? I will die.

    Just weird.

  47. Baal Zevul etc

    “It’s a beacon of democracy compared to a collection of states which have never pretended to be democracies.”

    Quite. It’s a beacon of democracy compared with the oppressive regimes surrounding it, few of which resemble anything close to a democracy and all of which feature well below Israel in the human rights index.

  48. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 1:33 pm

    Well, my favourite hobby horse is Tony Blair, and it looks as if he’s attracting adverse attention in Saudi Arabia*

    (new, female editor, btw. Can’t think of a mainstream UK paper with a lady boss, can you?)

    *#206 on the IHRRI index, one of our staunchest allies. And yours, Anon, and yours…

  49. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 1:37 pm

    Quite. It’s a beacon of democracy compared with the oppressive regimes surrounding it, few of which resemble anything close to a democracy and all of which feature well below Israel in the human rights index.

    Repeating yourself does not make your argument any better. However, if you are content to be judged by the standards of mediaeval theocracies with tribal traditions, that’s fine. And probably more appropriate. Now just stop pretending to be anything else, and we’ll see what we can do about rehabilitating you. We’ll have the 1.25 million guys in that giant prison camp of yours out and enjoying free enterprise with the rest of the world for a start, eh?

  50. grow up anon, my, what you call, dark twisted and sick mutterings, can’t possibly throw you off course.
    If you would stop wriggling when faced with the facts in Gaza, the westbank and East Jerusalem, you would not have to be downright rude to people.

  51. What is backrolling?

    Is it when you ask your unnamed mate as a “good source” for your blog?

  52. Iran 169th
    Syria 212th
    Iraq 184th
    Palestine 87th
    Lebanon 126th
    Turkey 91st

    Now get obsessing!

    Bye for now.

  53. Heard this coming home. Just 5 mins.

    Adie, who has a Tunisian father and who has inherited his mother’s wanderlust, decided that he wanted to see Gaza for himself and find out what was going on. He gives a very graphic account of his slow journey on an aid boat which, as it neared Gaza was suddenly surrounded by Israeli gunships. The usual followed. Then he was knocked about and imprisoned in Israel. The Israelis just hate anyone who tries to help the Palestinians in Gaza.

    ‘Adie and Ruth – Adventure in the Blood
    Duration: 5 minutes
    First broadcast:Friday 25 April 2014
    Fi Glover introduces Adie, who might not have been born if his mother hadn’t set off travelling, and Ruth, who might have had fewer worries if Adie hadn’t inherited her travel bug – another conversation in the series that proves it’s surprising what you hear when you listen.

    The Listening Project is a Radio 4 initiative that offers a snapshot of contemporary Britain in which people across the UK volunteer to have a conversation with someone close to them about a subject they’ve never discussed intimately before. The conversations are being gathered across the UK by teams of producers from local and national radio stations who facilitate each encounter. Every conversation – they’re not BBC interviews, and that’s an important difference – lasts up to an hour, and is then edited to extract the key moment of connection between the participants. Most of the unedited conversations are being archived by the British Library and used to build up a collection of voices capturing a unique portrait of the UK in the second decade of the millennium. You can upload your own conversations or just learn more about The Listening Project by visiting

    Producer: Marya Burgess

  54. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 2:00 pm

    He’s run out of ideas, Nevermind. Doesn’t take long, does it? Sort of like a kid who pisses himself in class: “But, Miss, Johnny did a poo in his trousers yesterday”.

    He could be proud of Israel if it lived up to its fine principles. But it doesn’t, So he blusters.

  55. I’m glad I’m not a Palestinian. What an unenviable fate. But I guess we should encourage the peacemakers in both camps, as best we can.

  56. Your comment above Baal reminded me of the current P Eye cover.

  57. Craig, thanks for your reply, but I’m puzzled. You’re an educated and intelligent man with a wealth of life experience. And you are a keen researcher for your causes and published writing.

    So how am I to make sense of the conflict between what you say about Islam (in this case in regard to adultery) and the many credible sources concerning severe punishments prescribed by Islamic teachings?

    Example 1 –

    Example 2 –

    Example 3 -Book 38, Number 4339:

    Of course, adultery is just one sin for which severe penalties apply. I’d suggest that you and others here browse through (when you have the time) and discover more about what Islam instructs Muslims to observe and how to conduct themselves.

    This subject needs to be broached and discussed openly some day if for no other reason than to educate non-Muslims in the cultural ways of their new neighbours. The sooner, the better.

  58. bib's morning nutri-loaf

    25 Apr, 2014 - 3:04 pm

    Great quote in that article, “considering all options” When the US says it, it merely means aggression and nukes. But when the Palestinians say it they really mean business.

    What’s the US government’s greatest fear? ICC accession for Palestine. The US has already got its tit caught in the impunity wringer. The Human Rights Committee is charging bad faith in treaty compliance extending to peremptory norms of international law. The UN special rapporteur on counter-terror and human rights has described the US secret death camps in the language of a crime against humanity. And US compliance review for the Convention Against Torture comes up in November. This is causing naked panic at CIA and JSOC with Obama just hiding, trying to survive:

    If the US has to make examples some scapegoats, it’s general quarters for Netanyahu. His personal safety always depended on his ability to blackmail the US, about breaches in the Nuclear Weapons Convention, about 9/11, about all sorts of regime-destoying dirt. What if he has to break the glass?

  59. Further tragic, is the necessity to embrace the less odious in this continuing travesty. Who will speak for the good of children, instead of abusing them?

  60. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 3:16 pm

    re Human Rights rankings

    Five posts from Anon and, within the hour (sometimes within minutes), five rejoinders from Ba’ar Zevul.

    I trust Hamas and/or the Palestinian Authority will pay you a bonus for your vigilance today, Ba’ar Zevul!

  61. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 3:22 pm

    “But I don’t see Freedom ‘n Democracy, Inc, giving $3Bn of its taxpayers’ money to Russia, China, Venezuela et al annually, do you?*”

    And if did, the freedom and human rights loving leaders of those countries would immediately start whining about “subversion” and put the legal clamps on it.

    As Russia and Venezuela have in fact done in the case of similar NGOs.

  62. Since the Oslo accords, settlements have increased from 110,000 to 500,000. Clearly Abbas is doing exactly what Netanyahoo wants him to do.

  63. Michelle Grant

    25 Apr, 2014 - 3:44 pm

    So you finally commented on Craig Murray’s blog Kelly? Can see what you mean, worth read.

  64. Ben-The Nazarene weeps

    25 Apr, 2014 - 3:49 pm

    Would Israeli fascism fail without ‘Christian’ support?

    “Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday stated that Zionism and the rebirth of the Jewish state would not have succeeded without the backing and support of Christian Zionism.”

  65. On reading the interviews of prof. Netanyahu, freely given without informing his sons press office, one gets an idea what the zionist wanted to achieve with their cradle to grave indoctrination.

    From a young age Bibi has been subjected to the ideas of Zev Jabotinsky because his father was an arch supporter, carved and polished by Zev’s views, one reason why he never got a teaching job at any of the universities.

    reading this blog shows what it means to indoctrinate children with hatred and fear for Palestinians, how dangerous this can be for the future when one’s child is hollowed out by the fascism/nationalism of their fathers. It results in long term intransigence and misunderstanding.

    This is why I believe that a two state solution is not a solution, but a receipe for a long term struggle, perpetuation of hatred. Unless all children learn to play, live and learn together, until they see adults behaving like equals, in one country and without being forced into defending their fathers ideals, this cursed land will tear itself apart.

    now there are some dark mutterings for you anon

  66. Jemand @ 2.58

    Religious instruction while it often has moral fibre sometimes belongs to a time gone by, or if not, ought to do. That does not mean that Muslims, Jews or Christians who are persecuted should not be protected against state or other abuse. There was a wise Jewish teacher 2000 years ago who when confronted with the old law of Moses regarding the stoning of a woman for adultery. He was asked for his advise and his answer, wise in my opinion, was to draw in the sand with a stick and as he did so to teach “If anyone is without sin let him cast the first stone.” Because all of them were sinners in one way or another the crowd that wanted to stone the woman dispersed. Had anybody cast a stone he would have been a sinner.

    The Qu’ran, Bible, Torah apply, though many would disagree, to history. There is much to be learnt from religious books but the law of a land today is, or should be, based on common sense and applied to the 21st century, where adultery is commonplace and should not meet with primitive punishment. What we need is some religious teaching about the evil empire that uses drones to kill and maim women, children, men and sometimes alleged terrorists, all of which have had no fair trial. I am almost sure you will agree with me on this.

    Remember, stoning for adultery was committed by Jews at one time, and only through education has a modern world moved forward on this issue. This is why I very much support enlightened Israeli groups, like anti-Zionist Israeli groups, and the recent advanced Israeli group calling for a halt to male circumcision posted by Doug Scorgie.

    I agree that countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and other places where outdated laws are used to condemn people to death, have not moved forward in this respect. It does not mean that all the things these countries do are wrong. But equally the UK, US and other NATO regimes are murdering people extra-judicially, and are therefore just as bad. As an educated man yourself I feel confident you will not take issue with this comparison of two evils: one based on religion, the other on secularism.

  67. Habbakuk Are these your own opinions or are you given subject matter to push ?
    Do you seriously believe the stuff you write ?

    The consistency I see ,is your omnipresence. A man with a word to say on everything and a bad word to aim at Mary.It is obviously a full time job as you are probably present more often than even Craig is. What do they pay you to disrupt blogs? Every now and again I begin to believe you are becoming civil,but then suddenly you revert back to the good old Habba we attempt to ignore.Almost like there is two of you. Do you work shifts perhaps ?

  68. Ba'al Zevul (Dark Artist)

    25 Apr, 2014 - 4:17 pm

    Kurtan -Is Habbabcuk still there? And Mary?


  69. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 4:33 pm


    “Habbakuk Are these your own opinions or are you given subject matter to push ?
    Do you seriously believe the stuff you write ?

    The consistency I see ,is your omnipresence. A man with a word to say on everything and a bad word to aim at Mary.It is obviously a full time job as you are probably present more often than even Craig is. What do they pay you to disrupt blogs? Every now and again I begin to believe you are becoming civil,but then suddenly you revert back to the good old Habba we attempt to ignore.Almost like there is two of you. Do you work shifts perhaps ?”

    1/. References to “full time job”, “pay”, work shifts” : I imagine that your post is meant to be a response to mine(at 15h16) regarding Ba’al Zevul. Perhaps you are Ba’al Zevul, or working for the same people?

    2/. “A word to say on everything” : not at all. There are far better candidates on here for that accolade.

    3/. Whether these are my opinions and do I believe what I write: certainly. And now ask yourself the same questionss about others.

    4/. More often present than Craig : yes, just like the other regulars. And that’s what usually happens on blogs with comment sections.

    5/. The Habba you try to ignore : feel free to do so. Try Habbabreak if it all gets too much, why don’t you.

    6/. Are there two of me : yes, sure. Salt and pepper, ying and yang, the rough and the smooth…whatever you wish!

    And now stop being so silly. :)


    La vita è bella, life is good!

  70. Some more ZBC propaganda on BBC News Channel at 3am this morning.

    BBC Jeremy Bowen vs Benjamin Netanyahu & BBC Mike Embley vs Khaled Elgindy from Brookings
    Posted by Gutenberg on April 25, 2014, 3:05 pm

    Khaled Elgindy

    Even in attempting to make the most basic of counter-arguments to Netanayhu, Bowen proves to be woefully inadequate.

    Are these people really journalists? During their exchange, Bowen charges that “The Palestinians say that you continue to take their land, to build and extend settlements…”

    Why didn’t Bowen mention that the issue goes far beyond the claims or accusations of the Palestinians and it’s actually the established opinion of the international community through countless resolutions and condemnations of the continued building and expansion of settlements as a violation of international law at the UN and within the EU for decades?

  71. In regard to my last comment about the faults of religion and secularism it is twelve months gone since Obama last talked about closing Guantanamo Bay. Shaker Aamer, an educated Muslim who with Moazzam Begg was running a charity school for boys and girls in Afghanistan, before their school and home was hit by the Yankie military, has been tortured and abused. Despite being cleared for release 6 years ago he is still in that hellhole in Cuba. He has a twelve year old son he has never seen. I urge all right-minded people to sign this petition, started today, for his release.

    Craig, please do another blog about Shaker.

  72. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 4:52 pm

    Mr Goss pleads

    “Craig, please do another blog about Shaker.”

    I’ve told you several times : you are a squatter on this blog, so please stop trying to give instructions to its owner!

    You have your own blog – Johngossip or something similar. Why don’t you post something about Shaker there if you can’t wait for Craig to get round to it when he pleases?

  73. Ben-This House has not be cleared

    25 Apr, 2014 - 4:57 pm

    I think we’ve discovered havasack’s identity.

  74. And have a nice weekend Baal. See you Monday!

  75. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 5:14 pm

    @ Eminences

    Given that no example of govt turpitude, however small, escapes the eagle eye of the Eminences on this blog, I’m all the more surprised that the govt’s splendid decision to stop RBS paying its executives bonuses amounting to double their annual pay has not given rise to a single comment here.

    I wonder what the reason for this strange silence could be?

  76. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella)!
    “Try Habbabreak if it all gets too much.”

    Thanks for that Habbaman!

    Habbabreak. For when it gets too much.

  77. Pro Russian seperatists have captured a bus with 7 OSCE observers, these are seven out of 160 for the whole of the Ukraine.

    Putin must know that he should stop this, he can’t be seen to support stop such blatant actions, not to speak of the murder of locally elected politicians. It negates his arguments because he has no beef with the OSCE, their reputation is good and they are usually well respected.

    I believe the OSCE is currently trying to recruit and dispatch some 500 observers to the Ukraine, now there is something usefull to do.

  78. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 6:42 pm

    Like Mary, I believe in cross-fertilization, including that of blogs.

    So here is the very latest (today!) offering from Mary on Squonk’s splendid blog:

    “I think the trolls on Craig are finding it quite difficult trying to keep up with all the comments on Craig’s multiple posts. Habb is in the lead, followed by Anon and the others bringing up the rear”


    Support the Pound sterling, the US dollar and the shekel – dump rubles, reals and renminbis!

  79. Mods There is a nasty mixture of dog dirt and ad hominems being left at the end of the previous threads going back to ‘UK Moves to Block US Senate Report to Protect Blair, Straw and Dearlove’. I think the sly t—-s believe nobody will notice.

  80. nevermind 25 Apr, 2014 – 5:57 pm

    The OSCE is a spin-off from NATO. Absolutely nothing impartial about it. Set up to counter Russian influence and convert former Soviet friendly countries to the good old western NATO way of killing everything that moves and stealing what’s left in the ground. Don’t believe its own historical blurb. Go to the academics.

  81. Surely the faction in Ukraine that wants to rejoin Russia are unionists. Why are they called seperatists?

  82. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 9:14 pm

    “The OSCE is a spin-off from NATO. Absolutely nothing impartial about it. Set up to counter Russian influence and convert former Soviet friendly countries to the good old western NATO way of killing everything that moves and stealing what’s left in the ground.”

    I believe that Russia belongs to this organization which rather makes nonsense of your claim, doesn’t it.

  83. Habbabkuk,

    I’m surprised you’re not praising this squonk contributor!

    The minimum age for internet use should be 14 and usage should be limited to 5 hours a week. This would help concentrate minds and free up time for healthier activities.

    No one under 45 and earning less than £50000 should be allowed to post anything. Posting only between 08h00 and 20h00 UCT.

  84. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 9:18 pm

    “Mods There is a nasty mixture of dog dirt and ad hominems being left at the end of the previous threads…”

    And how would you describe what you write about this blog and bloggers on other blogs (eg Squonk’s – cf my post at 18h42, above)?

  85. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    25 Apr, 2014 - 9:20 pm

    Squonk (21h17)


    I’m surprised you’re not praising this squonk contributor!”

    I’ll leave that agreeable task to others, dear Squonk :)

  86. Out of interest I googled Liam Fox News. The top 4 results –

    Liam Fox accuses Snowden of ‘treason’ – but ignores his own past (blog)-by Ian Dunt-17 Apr 2014
    Liam Fox during the Adam Werritty scandal. … Former defence secretary Liam Fox has been more prominent as a backbencher than he was as …

    Snowden leaks ‘criminally irresponsible’, MP Liam Fox says
    BBC News-16 Apr 2014
    Former CIA contractor Edward Snowden risked the lives of secret agents by leaking documents containing their names, ex-UK Defence …

    Liam Fox urges foreign states to help fight Scottish independence bid Apr 2014
    FORMER Defence Secretary Liam Fox has urged foreign governments to … Speaking in Washington last week, Dr Fox said he believed Alex …

    Liam Fox: Nato must speak up to save Union
    The Sunday Times-19 Apr 201
    FORMER defence secretary Liam Fox has urged foreign governments to break their silence and oppose Scottish independence in the interests

    Couldn’t make it up could you. I made the same search for Werritty but drew a blank other than connections to Fox in the context of the links above.

  87. In case there are any detractors to my view that the OCSE is a spin-off of NATO, and little different from the United Nations which started out as a reasonable International Organisation, but is now “New York, New York, New York”, one of its latest debates involved the Ukraine. I urge you to look at who the Chairman and co-chairman is and remember the debate is about Europe. WTF has Europe got to do with Yanks?,B&ContentRecordType=H&CFID=15489647&CFTOKEN=295d35a037013260-0A20B624-B92F-55D8-171ED53C1221E062

  88. BrianFujisan

    25 Apr, 2014 - 9:52 pm

    Check oot this Shit – Not Strictly O.T… i think

    Hello World. I’m Tony Blair, the highest-paid speaker in the world and the Middle East ‘Peace Envoy’ and I’d like to share my thoughts with you on how to combat the threat of ‘radical Islam….

    As most of you know will know, I have courageously and tenaciously set out to combat these dark forces for many years now, with considerable success. And I would like to share my thoughts with you on what ‘we’ can do to combat this menace:

    Take military action everywhere and anywhere in the world regardless of the risks and consequences, as I did when I took the decision to participate in the invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Both these actions have contributed enormously to reducing ‘extremist violence’ as anyone with even the most cursory knowledge of these countries can attest.
    Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to understand or define what ‘radical Islam’ actually is. Any attempts at such analysis can only undermine the moral clarity required for the struggle between ‘ pluralistic societies and open economies, where the attitudes and patterns of globalisation are embraced; and those who want to impose an ideology born out of a belief that there is one proper religion and one proper view of it.’ Do not consider the political and historical context that has given …

    The rest of thie piece…with this Video –


  89. Matthew Gould, old friend of Fox and Werritty, has been busy establishing and cementing UK/ Israel links.

    ‘The UK Jewish Film Festival was established 18 years ago; and on April 16-19, the Tel Aviv Cinematheque is presenting a selection of some of the most popular films the festival has screened.

    The festival is held in London, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester, as well as in Geneva and Hong Kong. The UK festival is three weeks long, and approximately 15,000 people attend it. It features movies about Jewish life from around the world and not necessarily from the UK.

    Matthew Gould, the British ambassador to Israel, will speak in Tel Aviv at the opening-night film, The Jewish Cardinal. Directed by Ilan Duran Cohen, the movie is a dramatization of the life of Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, the Jewish-born head of the French church and close confidant of Pope John Paul II.’

    ‘Many Israeli academics and students continue to visit, and to be made welcome, at UK universities. Israel and Great Britain.

    The British have been visiting Israel in large numbers.

    Following on the visit by British Prime Minister David Cameron, a few weeks ago Science Minister David Willets arrived with a delegation of heads of British universities to promote new Israel- UK scientific programs and to attend the second BIRAX (Britain Israel Research and Academic Exchange Partnership) sponsored conference on regenerative medicine held at the Technion in Haifa. A group of British parliamentarians left the country following a visit to Israel and the West Bank at the end of last week, and another delegation flew in for a three-day symposium on the peace process at Ma’aleh Hahamisha.

    The proactive British ambassador to Israel, Matthew Gould, didn’t have much time to relax, as between these visits he hosted a large group of guests to the annual British spring fair, which was held in the garden of his home in Ramat Gan last Friday morning.’

    followed by a lot of propaganda against British university students’ protests and the academic boycott.

    Liam Fox declares a visit to Israel (with a staff member) last July paid for by Conservative Friends of Israel. Many private and corporate donations, some large, are also declared as were trips to Bahrain and Azerbaijan.

  90. Resident Dissident

    25 Apr, 2014 - 10:04 pm

    “In case there are any detractors to my view that the OCSE is a spin-off of NATO, and little different from the United Nations which started out as a reasonable International Organisation, but is now “New York, New York, New York”,”

    Please stop trolling – some opinions are just so ridiculous as not to require any rebuttal, what can be stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

  91. Brian, if Blair had said it it would be the first honest mouthful to have passed over his forked tongue and into the public domain. Nice one!

  92. Just to confuse John we now have the OSCE which has its roots in the CSCE. These Wiki links might clarify. It’s all about global domination which the TTIP will extend.

    Wikileaks on TPP

    and Wikipedia on TTIP

    Remember the last acronym.

  93. Resident Dissident

    25 Apr, 2014 - 10:17 pm

    I’m surprised (well not really) that we haven’t heard even a pipsqueak of protest from those who have shown such an interest in defending the freedom of the internet in the past to Putin’s statement about the internet being a CIA project or to the founder of the Russian Facebook being forced out so that it could be taken over by the KGB

    Well at least the Putinistas might be a little quieter since they wouldn’t want to be seem participating in a CIA project would they?

  94. I might have guessed some prat would chirp in with denigrating nonsense, and who was it, Resident Dissident. Now there’s a surprise. OK watch US Senator Cardin’s speech for yourself. You’ll agree with every word I have no doubt. But it proves my point about there being no impartiality in the US led OCSE. Keep getting your nonsense from Wikipedia and you’ll end up like the other sheep. Baa. Baa. Baa. WTF has it got to do with Europe, or for that matter Iraq, or Afghanistan and all the other countries it thinks it has an inalienable right to which to dictate?

  95. I saw that too Brian. Very droll but see that the Guardian are promoting it without any irony. They promoted BLiar to perpetrate his war crimes and still promote him to this day. Remember Nick Cohen’s stuff in 2003?

  96. Thanks Mary for the links. But I do not need those. Senator Cardin speaks for himself and the rest of the Yankee-Doodle-Dandies trying to tell Europe what is or is not right for us.

  97. Robert Fisk in tomorrow’s Independent.

    Yet another betrayal of the Palestinians
    ‘Barack Obama becomes the latest US President effectively to give up on the peace process’

    Dead in the water. Just as the entire world predicted – with the exception of Messrs Barack Obama and John Kerry and, I suppose, our favourite “peace” envoy Tony Blair – the whole fandango of an Israeli-Palestinian “peace” has collapsed again. US President Obama, walking away from the car crash for which his own political cowardice is entirely to blame, says it’s time for a “pause”. Could there be a more chilling word for America’s impotence in the Middle East?

    Of course – lock-stepping with Israel as usual – Obama condemned Mahmoud Abbas for the “unhelpful” step of trying to form a unity government with Hamas, a skewed version of events that entirely chimes with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s predictable claim that the Palestinian President “formed an alliance with a murderous terrorist organisation that calls for Israel’s destruction”.

    Forget that Mr Abbas insists that this Palestinian unity would be founded on recognition of Israel, renunciation of violence and acceptance of previous agreements.


  98. Resident Dissident

    25 Apr, 2014 - 10:42 pm

    The OCSE is not US led

    No I don’t agree with every word of Senator Cardin’s speech.

    Boy do you old Soviets hate the old Helsinki Accord don’t you – biggest mistake you ever made to sign up and allow all those foreigners (and not a few dissidents) to ask awkward questions about human rights and try and enforce all those articles in the UN Charter (remember the one you were praising a few weeks back) that the good old USSR had been avoiding until then. And now they are trying to stop your latest hero going back to the good old days.

  99. Resident Dissident

    25 Apr, 2014 - 10:44 pm

    Still no boycott of the CIA internet project by the faithful?

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