After Project Fear, Expect Project Terror

by craig on September 3, 2014 9:24 am in Uncategorized

Delighted that the popular upsurge in Scotland has been reflected in the polls and the mainstream media have started to notice it is happening. There is no doubt that unless the No campaign can find a game-changer (and a curiously untraceable person throwing an egg at Jim Murphy isn’t it), then the people of Scotland are going to seize their chance to escape from neo-con domination and create their own society.

But I also have no doubt the establishment are not going to accept this lightly. They are not simply going to let Scotland’s people walk away with Scotland’s resources. They have yet to make serious use of their most frequent instrument of population control – the “War on Terror”.

The scene has already been set. Cameron has already told parliament that ISIS, or the Caliphate as it calls itself (I always think it is better to call people what they call themselves, rather than some made-up name) poses a major and imminent threat to the UK. Jack Straw is back on Radio 4 saying that Britain must bomb Iraq, as though the very cause of the Caliphate was not the last time he invaded Iraq. Saudi Arabia, which funded and still funds the Caliphate, is giving warnings to the security services of planned attacks in the UK.

The truth is that everybody who has ever carried out an actual Islamic terror attack in the UK (of which there have been very few indeed) has stated that they did so because of British bombings and invasions of Muslim countries – a fact which is very plainly true. The notion that the way to stop this is to bomb or invade Muslim countries is quite incredible.

I fear that we will shortly see arrests of young Muslims in Glasgow and Edinburgh. We will be told they were planning to detonate a dirty nuclear bomb in George Square, or convert the Scott Monument into a giant ballistic missile using fertiliser and Irn Bru. We will be told that only the UK security services have saved Scotland from destruction. The media hype will be on a par with the liquid bomb plot. Like the liquid bomb plot, when it turns out to have been non-existent the media will not tell you that. Anyway the referendum will be over by the time the story is debunked.

In truth, of course, an independent Scotland which does not invade other countries will be a safer place than the continually aggressive and murderous United Kingdom.

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152 Comments

  1. It has been reported that ‘Liquid Bomb Plot’ came out of confessions obtained by torture, with MI6 & Bangladeshi involvement.

  2. I’ve always thought that was the weakest part of the no campaign actually. The argument of security. If they focus on that I think it smells of desperation.

    The no campaign should stick to economics/lack of a plan to implement an independent scottish currency.

    Smells like the referendum is going to go to the wire.

  3. If Scots distance themselves from Westminster’s warmongering in Iraq, Syria and Libya by voting for Scottish independence, wouldn’t that make Scotland less of a target for terrorism?

    I wish I lived in Scotland and could vote for independence. The UK has limited independence as currently configured. Most of our important decisions are made by Washington or Brussels.

  4. ” In truth, of course, an independent Scotland which does not invade other countries will be a safer place than the continually aggressive and murderous United Kingdom. ”

    Strange, in the past you’ve argued that the threat from terrorists in the UK is close to non-exisratant so just how much more safer can Scotland be?

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/as-big-as-terrorism/

  5. if the yes campaign win the referendum you and the supporters of a so called free Scotland will have to confront the same problem that the system you will have operate in is still in tact .the laws of Capitol will still control the structure of the Scottish state the countries you interact with will be goverened with these laws so the future that has been projected for the Scottish peaple I predict will not happen.the small elite who have the wealth will retain their ill gotten gains while the majority will still compete with fellow workers in the race to the bottom.

  6. At least some good news. Hopefully very good news. Ceasefire in Ukraine announced by Poroshenko:

    http://rt.com/news/184716-poroshenko-ceasefire-ukraine-putin/

    Mainstream media must be in total disarray about this…

  7. Len Henderson

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:13 am

    Off the point, I know, but remembering all the fuss a few weeks ago about the start of the First World War – all the celebration of the start of a carnage. Today is the anniversary of the UK’s entry into WW2, but not a peep in the media! I know it’s not the centenary but just nothing after all the glory of WW1?

    Perhaps in an independent Scotland we’ll be close enough to our own movers and shakers to ensure a bit of consistency if not honesty!

  8. @Len: start of ww2 (exactly 75 years ago today…) obviously doesn’t fit the current agenda.

  9. And they’ve just other ordered a puckle tanks, ?why. Bairns suffering malnutrition and they squander billions, disgusting grrrr.
    I’ve been waiting for the last shoe to drop, scary

  10. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:42 am

    I wonder if the sudden readiness of the MSM to report a swing in favour of YES is a tactic. Until recently they have projected a comfortable win for NO with the implication that YES voters are losers. Perhaps Westminster recognise that this strategy is failing, is encouraging apathy in the NO vote. Perhaps they calculate now is the time to scare NO voters to the poll stations and encourage complacency in the YES vote.

  11. They are not simply going to let Scotland’s people walk away with Scotland’s resources.

    From the outset I have believed this, expressed in exactly those words. The way to understand the sense of Project Fear is to invert it: all the losses and dangers of separation are to rUK, not Scotland.

    There is much puzzlement that Westminster says it has made no contingency plans in the event of Scottish independence, while Cameron continues to preach from a distance but evade engagement in debate. One interpretation of this sang froid is that there is a determination that independence will simply not be permitted. The question arises as to how it will be prevented if the Scots vote for it, as now seems likely. There are a number of ways that this might be done.

    (1) Rig the poll so it turns out No anyway
    (2) Claim the poll is too small (retrospectively apply the 40% rule)
    (3) Renege on the Edinburgh Agreement (EA) immediately if it’s still a Yes vote
    (4) Make a muddle of independence negotiations, then renege on EA
    (5) Offer only a settlement which will be wholly unacceptable to Scots (e.g. Ireland, Serbia)
    (6) Manufacture a crisis and kick independence negotiations into the long grass

    There are plenty of options short of planting bombs in shopping malls and blaming the Caliphate – a strategy which could rebound badly, like the Kilmainham executions.

  12. Node, that is exactly what I thought. Seem to recall when New Labour first came to power in what was clearly going to be a landslide similar tactics were used to ensure the maximum majority

  13. “The truth is that everybody who has ever carried out an actual Islamic terror attack in the UK (of which there have been very few indeed) has stated that they did so because of British bombings and invasions of Muslim countries – a fact which is very plainly true.”

    Yes. But also true is that the greatest terrorist threats to the UK over the last 50 years have been domestic. I don’t see any great threat to an Independent Scotland from Islam but independence could well greatly increase the threat of sectarian terrorism.

  14. douglas clark

    3 Sep, 2014 - 11:06 am

    Fred,

    It actually surprised me that the NI situation did not really spill over into the West of Scotland. The fact that it didn’t makes me think that it is unlikely to suddenly explode if we vote ‘yes’ to independence. If there wasn’t enough emotional capital when the whole thing was at it’s peak, it is hardly likely to arise now.

  15. @node, Uzmark

    For a long time our canvass returns have been showing much higher support for Yes than the polls suggest (we almost never see No ahead) even allowing that we see unweighted raw data. There has been an even more marked surge in the last few days which no poll will have picked up. A strong factor in this has been the public debates: not so such the argument and counter-argument, but the half-consciously perceived difference between the protagonists: ambitious idealists on one side, most of them not politicians – drearily predictable careerists and apparatchiks on the other. The atmosphere around the No campaign is noxious and people are recoiling from it.

  16. Craig, can you prove that there has been a single incident of a real Islamic terror attack in the UK ever? Surely you don’t still believe the 7/7 bombings were not staged.

  17. A timely appearance by Fred to illustrate “drearily predictable careerists and apparatchiks”

  18. Well anything is possible, but The neocon Terrorists have just suffered the most Amazing Defeat in The Ukraine. Their credibility will be in tatters – and it is likely to only get worse for them as serious questions are asked.

    Tony

  19. “It actually surprised me that the NI situation did not really spill over into the West of Scotland.”

    If Scotland had been independent at the time it could well have. It spilled over into the Republic.

  20. Vronsky

    I should say 4 and 5 are certain. The others range from possible to probable.

  21. The British hostage referred to in the Sotloff video posted by ISIS is apparently Scottish, with a military background, and recently resident in Croatia (his wife’s homeland).

    http://www.vocativ.com/world/isis-2/david-cawthorne-haines-isis-threatens-kill-third-man/#!bOZ5fk

  22. Summerhead

    “Craig, can you prove that there has been a single incident of a real Islamic terror attack in the UK ever? Surely you don’t still believe the 7/7 bombings were not staged.”

    The bombers filmed themselves describing their intentions and their reasons for carrying out the attacks. I would have thought that alone proves they were responsible.

  23. Scotland’s great fortune is the peaceful nature of the debate. Any terrorist style incident thus has no plausible background. It will be seen as a secret service intervention by many – even, ironically, if it is genuine!

    As for the CIA – if independence wins in Scotland, it will have been thanks to the internet and personal conversations, the same method that has thoroughly exposed the CIA’s tactics over the last decade. They and Westminster may try something underhand, but it will be hard for them to do it in secret.

  24. Craig, not on UK soil but many Brits died – what do you believe to have been the justification for the 9/11 attacks?

  25. @Tony:

    I spoke too soon. Here’s the latest from the Ukranian PM:

    “Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk says Russia is a “terrorist state” and is waging war in eastern Ukraine, Reuters reports. Ukraine is planning to construct a wall, or “real state border”, between Ukraine and Russia, he adds.”

    BBC live updates 11:08

  26. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    3 Sep, 2014 - 11:44 am

    Project Terror: Military buildup in regional capital –

    here

  27. ‘A timely appearance by Fred to illustrate “drearily predictable careerists and apparatchiks”’

    Here come the Nationalist thugs with their personal attacks.

    The SNP may be wooing the Catholics now but in an independent Scotland after those Catholics realised they had been shafted things could turn nasty.

    In Ireland the Nationalists are Catholic and the Unionists Protestant. In Scotland the Unionists are Protestant and the Nationalists even more Protestant.
    George Galloway is Catholic, Alex Salmond is CoS.

    In 2001 16% of the population of Scotland were Catholic, 28% of the prison population. Social injustice is a motive for terrorist acts.

  28. Al Milliner

    Yes, they were led to make those martyrdom videos by Rashid Rauf, who was being run by the CIA and Pakistani intelligence agencies. No mention at all in the videos of liquid bombs, or airplanes. There is reference, as always, to western occupation of Muslim countries.

    It is perfectly possible for agents provocateurs or genuine militants to ramp up uneducated, misled and possibly unpleasant people to say all sorts of stupid things. In no sense do these videos prove the existence of a liquid bomb plot.

  29. Fred

    I fear you are losing the plot. Alex Salmond being a member of the Church of Scotland and George Galloway being a Catholic in no sense makes the independent movement a sectarian one. The idea that an independent Scotland would take some kind of action against Catholics is, frankly, absolutely bonkers.

  30. Fred,

    Normally I agree with your comments on this blog, especially when you are willing to put up with the vitriol hurled at you by supporters of independence for daring to voice your opposition to a Yes vote, but your post regarding the possibility of sectarian violence erupting as a result of a Yes vote is an extrapolation far.

    I don’t see how Catholics will be ‘shafted’ in the event of a Yes vote, could you explain what you mean? I speak as an Irish Catholic, and I have experienced very little in the way of sectarianism here in Scotland compared to back home in Northern Ireland. I would also point out that your sweeping statement that Nationalists are Catholic and Unionists are Protestant is no longer true.

  31. “In Ireland the Nationalists are Catholic and the Unionists Protestant. In Scotland the Unionists are Protestant and the Nationalists even more Protestant.
    George Galloway is Catholic, Alex Salmond is CoS.”

    Wow what kind of cul-de-sac do you live in? What Scotland is this that you talk off? It is certainly not the one I live in or WANT to live in. If you really hold opinions like this then I feel sorry for you. Open your eyes and come out into the light.

  32. “it’s obvious in advance where the biggest problem lies: it’s become impossible to express opposition to free market economics via the main Westminster parties.
    Some English and Welsh voters think they’re doing it by voting Ukip. But the referendum offered Scottish voters a way to do it by destroying the union. Whether you think that’s illusory or mistaken, it’s formed the narrative on the streets.”
    Paul Mason, Guardian, 3rd September 2014

    For me this is the reason I sent in my YES postal vote

    BTW toady is the 75th anniversary of the outbreak of WW2

  33. Al Milliner

    I didn’t delete it I replied to it (11.55 above). It would be pretty daft to reply to something deleted. And if you are banned, why are you here? You appear to be talking nonsense.

  34. “Some English and Welsh voters think they’re doing it by voting Ukip.”

    10% of Scots voters at the last European elections, too.

  35. I posted the facts to back up what I said. Galloway is Catholic, Salmond is CoS, the figures I gave were from the 2001 census returns.

  36. Well where is my post about the bomb plots you were replying to then, Craig???

    And yes, you or a moderator has attempted to ban me twice in the last few days.

  37. I’ve been thinking the same thoughts lately. The optimal time to make these terror arrests would be so that they divert attention from the Orange Order march on the 13th. So it makes sense to carry them out on the 12th September. We’ll see. I wouldn’t put it past this government at all.

  38. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    3 Sep, 2014 - 12:46 pm

    and the Nationalists even more Protestant.

    The Nationalists are obviously whatever the opposition propaganda says they are from day to day. In my time, they were slated (by Labour) for being Tartan Tories, (by Unionists) for having a Catholic bias, and (by the Tories) for being red revolutionaries. Take your pick. Though it’s hard to see how you could get “more protestant” (in terms of bellowing about it) than this:

    http://www.sconews.co.uk/news/18734/is-glasgow-planning-a-u-turn-on-orange-walks/

    Note: Labour council supporting this display of in-your-face ‘religious’ hatred

  39. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    3 Sep, 2014 - 12:47 pm

    Oh, and the Liberals called the SNP Tartan Tories as well. How bitterly ironic. Eh, Clegg?

  40. “I fear you are losing the plot. Alex Salmond being a member of the Church of Scotland and George Galloway being a Catholic in no sense makes the independent movement a sectarian one. The idea that an independent Scotland would take some kind of action against Catholics is, frankly, absolutely bonkers.”

    But I have seen a video of a Nationalist supporter saying he didn’t think we should be nice to each other or civilised and we should not be pleasant to the “traitors in our midst”.

    Nationalists do have quite a reputation throughout history and talk like that hardly instils confidence this time they are any different. You get people on blogs inciting sectarian hatred and then things like this happen.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13129139

  41. Fred,

    “I posted the facts to back up what I said. Galloway is Catholic, Salmond is CoS, the figures I gave were from the 2001 census returns.”

    Those two things are certianly facts but they don’t support in any way your claim that sectarian violence would result from a Yes vote. You also didn’t elaborate on what you meant that Scottish Catholics would be ‘shafted’?

    There are many legitimate reasons to reject independence without dragging in the remote prospect of sectarian strife.

  42. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 1:16 pm

    I see BBC News are moving this afternoon from Freeview channel 80 to channel 150. This appears to puts them between “Connect 4″ and “Adult Playboy”. Surrealism squared?

  43. Success has many fathers, and failure is an orphan.

    In a world of fear and fashion, confidence in the past decays; and cynicism ensures only the well-off can afford that historical decadence called ‘culture’.

    In a genuine crisis, appropriate radicalism is necessary. But when socialist subversives induce fear through bent propaganda, there can be no appropriate radical response, because the crisis is synthetic.

    It is an ironic tragedy that the independence movement invokes the history of Scottish psychological fortitude, by advocating ‘running away from the problem’. I hope the Scots wise up to the possibility that they are being lead by a stalking-horse:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10799027/Alex-Salmond-Rupert-Murdoch-is-a-remarkable-man.html

  44. YouKnowMyName

    3 Sep, 2014 - 1:40 pm

    I was just thinking that there’s someone who hasn’t yet spoken up in the Scottish independence vote ‘farewell fortnight,’ and blow me down (up?) he’s come out with a quote in the Jerusalem Post. He didn’t quite yet mention Hibernia – just focussed on the made-up ISIS mob…. you don’t need to read the article as the URL says it all

    http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Fidel-Castro-Israel-US-responsible-for-creating-Islamic-State-374317

  45. Fred: Didn’t one of Better Together’s poster girls tweet something along the lines of “Got out Xmas lights. Like taigs most of them don’t work and look better hanging from a tree”?

    Isn’t the Orange Order on the side of Better Together? The religious divide such as it is in Scotland seems not to be affiliated to one side in particular. (I wonder what Mr Murphy would make of her comments?)

    Frankly apart from a small number of people, I don’t think religion plays a major role in the life of Scotland. I personally have no idea what religion any of my friends follow. I’ve never seen a single person I know (apart from elderly relatives) go to church of any kind.

    Craig: Brilliant post and I’m pretty chuffed that this is what I have been saying for some long time.

    They simply can’t afford us to go. They never expected it to get this close, and if it looks like it’s going to happen they will do whatever it takes and hang the consequences.

    I await a grave announcement from Buckingham Palace, or a terrorist threat saved by the magnificent secret police of the UK (taking a day off from protecting weirdo members of the establishment from prosecution), or a war.

    Jack Straw is a right wee blood curdling warmonger isn’t he!

  46. Craig,

    I fear that the kind of fear mongering media backlash of the kind you described, is already happening. Check out yesterday’s London Evening Standard.

  47. “The bombers filmed themselves describing their intentions and their reasons for carrying out the attacks. I would have thought that alone proves they were responsible”

    Father Christmas always used to leave me a hand-written note.

  48. “I always think it is better to call people what they call themselves, rather than some made-up name”

    So you’d call a ‘Brother’ a “nigger”!?

  49. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    3 Sep, 2014 - 2:32 pm

    Mode

    “I wonder if the sudden readiness of the MSM to report a swing in favour of YES is a tactic. Until recently they have projected a comfortable win for NO with the implication that YES voters are losers. Perhaps Westminster recognise that this strategy is failing, is encouraging apathy in the NO vote. Perhaps they calculate now is the time to scare NO voters to the poll stations and encourage complacency in the YES vote.”
    ____________________

    The same thought had crossed my mind.

    But if the objective is to mobilise the (No) vote, that seems legitimate enough.

    After all, do not politicians and public alike frequently bemoan the mow turn-out in elections of various kinds?

    ******************

    Habbabkuk for a big turn-out.

  50. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    3 Sep, 2014 - 2:32 pm

    “the low turn-out” for God’s sake. :)

  51. @Tris

    I’m no great fan of Unionists either if their Unionism is based on nationalist sentiments.

  52. When is that vote again? “Hurry Sundown”

  53. YouKnowMyName

    3 Sep, 2014 - 2:44 pm

    How will NATO vote in the Scottish independence debate? Dame Mariot Leslie (UK Ambassador to Nato, Retd.) is voting YES

    Meanwhile, ahead of sanctions, Americans are panic buying AK-47’s

    I don’t suppose these facts are related?

  54. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    3 Sep, 2014 - 2:45 pm

    Craig says

    “Vronsky

    I should say 4 and 5 are certain. The others range from possible to probable.”
    ____________________

    Three points:

    1/. It is interesting to see how the focus has shifted on this blog. The first stage – on anticipation of a No vote – was to accuse the Better Together campaign of dirty tricks and dirty campaigning. The second and current stage – with the polls apparently showing a move towards Yes – is to predict how Westminster will stymie what may be the outcome of the referendum.

    I remain unconvinced by either of those two phobias.

    2/. Vronsky’s 4 and 5 are not discrete points, they are aspects of one single point.

    3/. The thought apparently underlying those two (sub)points is a curious one, because it seems to be another way of saying : if Westminster does not give the Scottish negotiators everything they ask for in the negotiations, that would be equivalent to Westminster attempting to nullify the outcome of the referendum.

    THat is not a reasonable or rational point of view and renders the whole notion of negotiations otiose.

  55. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    3 Sep, 2014 - 2:49 pm

    Al Milliner

    “The bombers filmed themselves describing their intentions and their reasons for carrying out the attacks. I would have thought that alone proves they were responsible.”
    _________________________

    I haven’t yet read the following comments, soi someone light already have made the point. But anyway:

    Some Excellence or other is bound to claim on all seriousness that the film you refer to was faked and that the people appearing were actors.

    Exactly as some Eminences claimed on this blog wrt the Boston marathon explosions.

    I’m afraid there is no limit to the loopiness that is allowed out to wander the streets of Britain.

  56. I’m not 100% convinced Westminster cares if Scotland leaves. If it was so important to them why has Cameron et al not been in Scotland being very vocal for pro union. It seems illogical to me. I don’t believe its because he thinks the Scots would reject him, his ego would never accept that ! So why is he not there, why is he not on the streets making a case for the No campaign.

    Why have they sent ( if they did send) a couple of idiots to front the No campaign by default causing a large upsurge in the Yes vote in the polls. I honestly believe that Westminster simply doesn’t care if Scotland leaves, and that should worry the Yes people, because if they don’t care… why don’t they care ?

    I also don’t understand the use of rUK. With or without Scotland we are still the UK. Its odd what folk can find insulting, but I find that phrase ( as an Englishman born and bred) pretty insulting. Is that a Yes term or a No term ? I don’t know where it came from.

    My honest view is that Scotland should go her own way, Devo max is a really bad solution for the UK and Scotland and we will just end up here again in 20 years time having the same discussion. I also cant help but feel that on the day, when it actually comes to putting a tick in a box the Yes campaign will lose because its one thing supporting an idea when stopped in the street, its another thing altogether when your decision is final and irreversible.

    Just for the record I would much rather Scotland played a full role within the framework of the UK but that can never ever happen now, too much water under the bridge.

    The thing that bothers me most however is that no matter which way it goes the telly debates have done huge harm to the views of the English in relation to the Scottish and visa versa. I had to turn the last one off half way through, the nationalist crap from both sides was making me angry and I have NO reason to dislike the Scottish people… is this a divide and conquer technique for something we don’t yet know about ?

  57. It seems the question for Indy Scots is ‘when’ not ‘if’ they join NATO.

    http://scotreferendum.com/questions/how-long-will-it-take-to-join-nato/

    Should they join Craig?

  58. “Seven warships are moving into Cardiff Bay and protesters from across the UK and from all over the world have moved into a park on the outskirts Newport and set up their peace camp there.”

    http://www.itv.com/news/2014-09-02/seven-warships-move-into-cardiff-bay-as-nato-leaders-convene-in-wales-for-summit/

    The Welsh are unimpressed.

    http://stopwar.org.uk/events/protest-the-nato-summit#.VAcg4SgcWFI

  59. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 3:14 pm

    The latest false flag beheading, by John the Jihadist also aka John from the Beatles,(Christ they may as well have called him Willy Wonka), it sounds more convincing, will give the green light for Cameron and Co to pound what’s left of Syria to a pulp.

    Of course the real reason to pound Syria is to break the Assad Putin tie, its got nothing to do with democracy and freedom, god forbid.

    The game-changer you mention Craig, for Westminster, is in my opinion the Scots held hostage,the emphasis will be put on the terrorist link, to try and frighten the living daylights out of Scots, in order to compel them to vote no. Effectively Westminster will be saying look don’t leave its not safe out there for you wee unarmed Scot’s stay in the union.

    In my opinion the first beheading of Foley by John the Jihadist, was a complete and utter hoax, unfortunately it will give the axis of evil the impetus for casus belli on anyone they see fit.

    I can only hope Scot’s don’t fall for the false flag beheadings’s.

  60. “Frankly apart from a small number of people, I don’t think religion plays a major role in the life of Scotland. I personally have no idea what religion any of my friends follow. ”

    Try telling that to Gail Sheridan.

  61. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 3:36 pm

    “Libya is in civil war, fundamentalist armies are building a self-declared caliphate across Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan’s young democracy is on the verge of paralysis. To these troubles are added a resurgence of tensions with Russia and a relationship with China divided between pledges of cooperation and public recrimination. The concept of order that has underpinned the modern era is in crisis.

    The international order thus faces a paradox: Its prosperity is dependent on the success of globalization, but the process produces a political reaction that often works counter to its aspirations.”

    From Henry Kissinger’s new book, A New World Order.

    The evil old Zionist Kissinger, already knows what the axis of evil indeed to do.
    ———————-

    I think that, NATO is itself, a war criminal.

    Harold Pinter.

  62. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 3:39 pm

    Habbabkuk

    It is notable that the non-Western world can do no wrong as far as many here are concerned. Either a terrorist attack is ‘faked’ or some combination of the US, UK and Israel forced them to do it. I don’t know how someone can get themselves into this sort of state of mind. Too much internet? A loathing of the West so deep-rooted that it allows no room for any other evil in the world?

    It’s quite useful from a debating point of view, of course, because no matter what amount of evidence you stack up everything can simply be dismissed as a ‘false-flag’, ‘faked’, etc. You can’t argue against it because it is totally irrational. I don’t think I have ever read about any atrocity comitted by Muslims that hasn’t been denied or excused on here. It either didn’t happen, or if incontestible evidence shows that it did happen then it was ‘staged’ in order to implicate innocent Muslims.

    So 9/11, 7/7, and every terrorist attack since, failed or successful, is a fake. Everything that is happening in the Mid East is at the very least caused but usually orchestrated by the West. All of it staged. How can you argue against that level of insanity?

  63. ” Everything that is happening in the Mid East is at the very least caused but usually orchestrated by the West. All of it staged. How can you argue against that level of insanity?”

    Hmm. Have you ever had the acquaintance who is a pathological liar? I have, and when I’m told the Sun will rise in the East, I get up in the morning to check.

    ‘Fool me once…..’

  64. ..an acquaintance….

  65. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 3:44 pm

    Anders Fogh Rasmussen
    The retiring Secretary General of NATO
    —————————-
    This was the former Prime Minister of Denmark, an undistinguished professional politician whose whole world has been nothing but words on paper. Currently Rasmussen represents NATO, as a puppet, in the world of politics which has become the step-child most noted for global criminal-activity around the planet. Rasmussen has been at the helm since August of 2009, which means he was there when Syria was first attacked and when Libya was publicly exterminated: Now he wants NATO to do the same thing to Russia.
    ————————–
    Rasmussen along with Obama & Israel ought to be on trial in the Hague for Warcrimes, Genocide and Crimes against Humanity ­but instead he’s racing around trying desperately to create another illegal first strike military capability, on the cheap, to start WWIII.
    ————————
    It should be pointed out that Rasmussen is not a general, not an expert on weaponry or global military strategy—he was not elected. He’s a puppet who represents NATO that serves the global-bankers as global corporate pirates. As such Rasmussen is just a mouthpiece for a criminal-mob with an agenda that is not equal to the scale of what he’s proposing, as NATO’s solution to a problem, that NATO has no business participating in at all.
    ————————

  66. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 3:44 pm

    RepublicOfScotland 3:14pm

    To be clear, you believe that the Scottish hostage is being held by ISIS at the behest of the UK intelligence agencies so that he can be beheaded in time for the referendum in the hope that the Scottish will be frightened into voting No?

  67. Anybody noticed how quiet Jack Straw was in the Rotherham furore, not a peeps to be heard from the then justice minister, in charge under nolabour.

    The first home office researcher was offered support from her superiors but nothing happened. Jack’s South Uorkshire police has a lot to answer for and to just assume that the same practises are not happening in other councils, because we have not heard anything, would now be the most naive reaction possible.

    Off course it is and Blackburn is no different, nor is Norfolk or Essex. South Yorkshire Police’s spat with the BBC, the latter now threatens to disclose the content of phone calls made to them on the day of the raid, is a strong indication that somebody does not want such cases come to court.

    I think the pre case publicity to the raid on Harry Webbs villa was designed to keep it out of court, I can’t imagine S.Y.P not taking legal advice beforehand.

  68. “because if they don’t care… why don’t they care ?”

    Perhaps because UK politicians are controlled by the banks, so if the banks don’t care Westminster won’t either.

    When the banksters look at Scotland they see oil, gas, renewables and water. They might welcome an “independent” Scotland under the hapless Salmond with his clueless, back of an envelope currency plans. Rich pickings to be had.

    “With or without Scotland we are still the UK”

    Not exactly. If Scotland retained the monarchy then the kingdom would no longer be united.

  69. “Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests; which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not local purposes, not local prejudices ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. You choose a member indeed; but when you have chosen him, he is not a member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament.” [Burke]

    “…then the people of Scotland are going to seize their chance to escape from neo-con domination and create their own society.” [Craig Thomas Paine Murray… or Craigspeirre to his friends]

  70. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 3:54 pm

    To be clear, you believe that the Scottish hostage is being held by ISIS at the behest of the UK intelligence agencies so that he can be beheaded in time for the referendum in the hope that the Scottish will be frightened into voting No?
    ———————
    You’ve got to look at this from all angles, Scottish independence would do serious damage to the UK’s war chest, I’d put nothing past Westminster and Whitehall.

  71. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 3:57 pm

    Two days till the circus hits Wales, and the lunatics take over the asylum.

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/nato-summit-2014-main-security-7708659

  72. The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.

    Thomas Paine

    ++++++++

    Nationalism is a terrible thing.

  73. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:03 pm

    Nevermind, I want to congratulate you on being perhaps the first person here to mention Rotherham. How quiet you have all been. Not a peep!

    Is it not the case that the authorities did everything possible to cover up the abuse of 1,400 girls by Pakistani rape gangs for fear of being labelled ‘racist’, that fathers of the victims were actually arrested for the crime of trying to find their own daughters, that one caseworker was ignored and sent on a diversity training course for using the words “Pakistani men” in her report, among many mkre shocking revelations?

    How does this square with the prevailing view on here that British Muslims are the perpetual victims of demonisation by the British state?

  74. Republicofscotland

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:09 pm

    Corrupt Agenda: UN Orders Troops to Surrender to Obama-Backed Syrian Rebels
    ——————–
    A United Nations’ peacekeeping commander ordered Filipino troops to surrender on Monday at the hands of Obama-backed Syrian rebels. Thankfully they disobeyed that order and fought bravely for their freedom.
    ——————
    The Philippine military said Monday that a U.N. peacekeeping commander in the Golan Heights should be investigated for allegedly asking Filipino troops to surrender to Syrian rebels who had attacked and surrounded their camp.
    ——————-

    Gen. Gregorio Pio Catapang said he advised the 40 Filipino peacekeepers not to lay down their arms, and they defied the U.N. peacekeeping commander’s order. Instead, they staged a daring escape from the Golan camp over the weekend, ending a tense, dayslong standoff.
    —————————

    The disagreement is another blow to a U.N. peacekeeping mission that has been threatened by an escalation of violence in a buffer zone it has been guarding between Israel and Syria. A number of countries have withdrawn their troops from the peacekeeping force due to rising rebel attacks.
    —————————

    Forty-five Fijian peacekeepers who surrendered their firearms to the rebels last week are still being held by the al-Qaida-linked insurgents.
    ————————
    The UN is complicit in to the atrocities carried out by the axis of evil,UK, Washington, The illegal state of Israel, Saudi Arabia and NATO.
    —————–

    http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/09/02/corrupt-agenda-un-orders-troops-surrender-obama-backed-syrian-rebels/

  75. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:09 pm

    RoS

    “You’ve got to look at this from all angles, Scottish independence would do serious damage to the UK’s war chest, I’d put nothing past Westminster and Whitehall.”

    RoS, you’ve been clear that you think all these beheadings are staged and you predict that the Scots man will be beheaded before the referendum in order to scare Scots into voting No (meaning that in your view the jihadists are controlled by the UK government).

    So why did you not just answer a simple “yes” to my question of 3:44pm?

  76. Al Milliner

    There are a very great many things happening in the world – and even in the news – which I haven’t commented on. I do not intend to select topics to fit your own interest in a racist agenda. If crimes were not investigated because of a desire not to harm community relations that is very wrong. If you wish to highlight the subject out of a desire to demonise Muslims that is still worse.

  77. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:14 pm

  78. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:17 pm

    @Ben: More rubbish from Obama about Russian aggression just before the summit in South Wales, following up on Ukraine’s application to join NATO. It looks like he is indeed shaping up to welcome Ukraine into NATO at this summit. No doubt, he’ll be fully backed up by Cameron, Merkel, and that monster from Denmark who knew Iraq had WMD.

    They really do seem to be pushing for war.

  79. Peacewisher; It seems membership only need one crucial vote.

    Article 10

    The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

  80. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:29 pm

    Looks Russia will be taking on the whole of NATO then, from next week, Ben.

    “Russia Invaded” is the new “Iraq has WMD”.

    Excellent article from seven former US intelligence officers led by Ray McGovern recalling the build-up to war with Iraq:

    http://rt.com/usa/184512-vips-memo-merkel-nato/

  81. Lady's hats, yeah right

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:32 pm

    Milliner, you gullible chump, don’t argue against the insanity, argue against the peer-reviewed, forensically probative facts. Start with these. http://www.consensus911.org/

  82. “In truth, of course, an independent Scotland which does not invade other countries will be a safer place than the continually aggressive and murderous United Kingdom.”

    Implying that if the Scots are the good guys, then it’s the other lot that are to blame… the bloody Welsh, they’re all a bunch of cyclepaths. I blame them for the Massacre of Amritsar… Brig. Gen. Reginald E.H. Dyer sounds Welsh to me.

  83. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:38 pm

    There you go. One post on the matter and it’s a “racist agenda” and “desire to demonise Muslims”!

    I was, of course, making the point that the authorities seem to have been pretty desperate to cover up the abuse at all costs and wondered how this fits with the prevailing idea down here in the comments that British Muslims are demonised by the state. I was not demanding that you post on the subject.

    Anyway, I’m glad you’ve replied as you never got back to me on how you arrived at the figure of 15,000 killed by NATO in Sirte. I’ve left a comment at the bottom of page 2 of the previous thread that might be of interest to you. It’s pretty important that if you are using this as an argument in support of Scottish independence and accuse the BBC of covering it up then you should be able to back it up with evidence.

  84. Fred: Unionism is Nationalism. Did you miss the Union Jacks they are flying ?
    Weren’t the Olympics where they married Sport, UK’s armed forces, and a few million Union Jacks fascist in their style ?Warships on the Thames, and missile batteries on blocks of flats ? That isn’t touching the hard right ?
    Don’t you find the very Nationalistic side of the Better Together campaign worrying ?
    Were the military parades on the same day as Bannockburn celebrations not scary for you ? Tornadoes thundering overhead.
    I think its okay for you to be anti fascist, but you seem to label the bus pass givers but not the corrupt Westminsters.The Yes campaign want to give up weapons, not the Unionists.
    It was Westminster that fought a colonial war in 1982.Not content with the Union Jack in the UK , we have to hammer it down the throats of Argentinians.
    I think you’re blinded by the buttocks of your sheep.

  85. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:41 pm

    The way things are going, Jimmy, it looks as if Wales will be the unwitting launch pad for a major escalation of global hostilities… who would have thought it, the day started so well!

  86. ” Dyer sounds Welsh to me.”

    Ouch. Do they still wear war-paint? Ho ye!

  87. And who would have thought, that Edmund Burke anticipated Mr. Murray:

    “Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites, — in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity, — in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption, — in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

    Infamy, infamy… they’ve all got it infamy. A free Scotland will abolish all bad things at he point of a claymore.

  88. Georgia to seek invitation to join NATO – president

    “Georgia will seek an invitation to join NATO at a summit of alliance leaders in Wales this week, President Georgy Margvelashvili announced on Wednesday. “We will shoot for an invitation for NATO membership. But we understand that… decisions are made in a much more complicated way,” Margvelashvili said in a speech at the Chatham House think-tank. NATO signaled earlier this year it would stop short of approving a formal step to membership for Georgia at the summit. The alliance was ready in principle to a “substantive package” of cooperation with Georgia that would help it move closer to the alliance, Reuters said.”

    Why the hesitation? I thought they just wanted Bear-baiting.

  89. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 4:57 pm

    @Ben: Just how stupid was Gorbachev to trust Maggie and the US of A?

  90. I wonder if they will delete this one..it is a bit heavy for the Telegraph..

    I Need To Have a Word With You David Blair…

    Well Done For Actually Turning Up In The Warzones and Writing What You Saw…

    I have Massive Respect For You…You Were There as a Journalist…and I don’t think You Lie

    but did it change your mind…all The War, Death and Destruction…

    Did You Go Back To The Guys Who Pay Your Salary and Your Airfare, and Say…

    Can You Please Stop This…

    You are Bombing Completely Innocent Men, Women, Grandmothers and Grandfathers and Children To Death..

    They haven’t done anything wrong – and their blood is splashed all over me…and I feel sick.

    Tony

  91. Lady's hats my ass

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:00 pm

    Will somebody please explain to Milliner how the world works? It’s clear he’s never been read into anything, he’s a total propaganda victim. It’s painful to see him flopping off the turnip truck with each new brain fart.

    Of course they didn’t lock up those chomo Pakis. White or brown, Britain loves pedos! Dominant-class Britons trade the fresh meat like beanie babies, that’s the monarchy’s raison d’être.

    And what’s this fixation with dead wogs? What’s a few thousand here or there when you’ve gotten clean away with the crime of aggression by overstepping the authorizing resolution (well, not clean away, there’s no statute of limitations, and the floppy-sphinctered pedo officer class probably worries that some Scottish jurist will condemn them in the ICC one day.)

  92. Yeah, they really punked Gorby, didn’t they? Then they kept Yeltsin drunk and oblivious. Revenge is always a benefit of wars cold or hot, Peacewisher.

  93. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:02 pm

    DonnyDarko

    “Did you miss the Union Jacks they are flying ?
    Weren’t the Olympics where they married Sport, UK’s armed forces, and a few million Union Jacks fascist in their style ?Warships on the Thames, and missile batteries on blocks of flats ? That isn’t touching the hard right ?”

    The missile battery was excessive but do you really believe the waving of the flag or the military parading during a major national event, fascist? Craig, where do you get these people from!

    “Not content with the Union Jack in the UK , we have to hammer it down the throats of Argentinians.”

    Islands entirely populated by Brits, where there were no natives displaced, that were British territory before Argentina even existed, that were invaded aggressively by Argentina against the unanimous will of the population – – to defend them is to hammer the Union Jack down the throats of Argentinians? Really?

  94. No one’s trying to demonise muslims just attribute to them the crimes for which they are responsible without being accused of having a racist agenda. What’s the problem with that?

    It would be nice if we could persuade the tin foil hat brigade that not everything that happens in the world is a false flag staged by the NWO but I fear they’re beyond help.

  95. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:09 pm

    Revenge for what, Ben? Acquiring a design for the atomic bomb, and ensuring that the US wouldn’t be the world’s only nuclear power?

  96. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:15 pm

  97. Lol; Peacewisher. I think the military- industrial complex would have to create the USSR if it didn’t exist. In the 80’s Reagan brought out these scary pics of ancient hydrogen fueled ICBM’s and compared them to smaller US solid-fuel SOTA missiles to scare the public into giving him his ‘Peacekeeper’. :)

  98. Lady's hats

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:15 pm

    Islands entirely populated by Brits, where there were no natives displaced? Sounds like Pitcairn Island. Well then, by all means, invade! If there’s no one but Britons there, in no time they’ll be fucking their kids into a troglodyte race of inbred mutants.

  99. ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:16 pm

    @ Anon, oops, Al Milliner

    Regarding your seeming outrage at the very notion of the West being complicit in ISIS executions, consider the experience of Yvonne Ridley when held captive by the Taliban:

    “In December 2001 Ridley released In the Hands of the Taliban, a memoir detailing the 10 days she was held captive. In it, she expressed worries that officers from Mossad, the Israeli secret service, or from other intelligence agencies, were plotting to have her killed in an effort to boost public support for the war in Afghanistan.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvonne_Ridley

  100. Al Milliner

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:17 pm

    LHMA

    You come across as a bit weird mate. Have you thought of doing a gig for Scottish independence on a no more paedo royal flesh trade and sloppy-sphinctered pedo officer class platform? Sure to go down a bomb.

  101. Lady's hats with feathers & spangles

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:27 pm

    No more paedo royal flesh trade and sloppy-sphinctered pedo officer class?

    Is that not how the referendum question reads? Then how the fuck are people going to know what they’re voting on?!

  102. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:32 pm

    @Ben: You can be sure the military-industrial complex will made a fast buck of two out of the fall out from Cardiff over the next couple of days. Hey… that’s probably the EU solution to the current problems with their members’ balance of payments.

    PS: I generally don’t have much regard for conspiracy theories, but have little doubt in ability to manipulate a situation after a shocking event has occurred.

  103. “Warships on the Thames, and missile batteries on blocks of flats ?”

    I think they were there in case someone stole a commercial airliner and tried to crash it into the Olympic arena.

  104. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 5:53 pm

    @Len Henderson 10:13

    Now you can see why the important matter that today is the 75th anniversary of the start of ww2 has not been mentioned on the mainstream media…

  105. Just think of the savings iScotland can make on the security state compared to the rUK? Our politicians do not need armed diplomatic protection officers etc up here. Yes, okay there was the Glasgow airport attack, foiled by technical incompetence and a Glaswegian baggage handler. But that was because we were part of the UK that invaded Iraq illegally.

    After Independence we will not be under such attacks anywhere near enough having separated ourselves from Westminster partly because we did not want that invasion in our name. I wonder if we can get Scottish units removed from war zones after a Yes vote or if it will have to wait until March 2016?

    Doing street politics in Dundee I was approached by a guy who said ‘give me a reason to vote Yes’. None of the usual things like the NHS, education, jobs, fairness etc moved him. However it turned out he had lost relatives and had another lose a body part in Iraq and the idea that we would not engage in such things post Independence swung it for him.

  106. Boots on the Ground

    Statement from Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Admiral John Kirby on Security Personnel in Iraq:

    http://www.defense.gov/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=16913

    Obama has no official strategy thus far to commence air-strikes on ISIS controlled territory in Eastern Syria.

    The syringe is nonetheless being loaded for a domestic and international shot in the arm to catalyse a strike on Syrian soil.

    The toxicant intended to contaminate minds is two-fold.

    The massacre of American soldiers in Iraq and more Hollywood style executions of innocent UK/US/Other journalists.

    I shall call it the modern Decius’ edict.

  107. Lady's hats indeed

    3 Sep, 2014 - 6:32 pm

    Milliner, I empathize with your uncertainty, I do. If Scotland breaks free, What is the new system to be? Used to be, you sent your boy away to get mounted nightly by spindle-shanked toffs and, if you raised him right, he’d come out rubbing his arse, none the worse for wear and ready to rule Brittania. Now, in a sovereign Scottish state, it’s all a blur. New worries you’ve never had before – merit, character, achievement. Integrity, for fuck’s sake. What if there’s a constitution with rights and rule of law? How will the boy make his way in the world?

    It will be all right.

  108. Huuuuum – those evil dudes at ISIS just beheaded an “innocent” Israeli Jewish journalist Steven Satloff they kidnapped last year while covering the uprising in Syria.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/09/03/isis-beheads-israeli-jew-journalist/

  109. Lady asshat wrote:

    “Islands entirely populated by Brits, where there were no natives displaced? Sounds like Pitcairn Island. Well then, by all means, invade! If there’s no one but Britons there, in no time they’ll be fucking their kids into a troglodyte race of inbred mutants.”

    So we finally did build a Jerusalem!

  110. ” Our politicians do not need armed diplomatic protection officers etc up here. ”

    No, you have enough armed police on the streets already.

  111. Peacewisher

    3 Sep, 2014 - 6:59 pm

    That letter from 7 US intelligence veterans:

    “Warning Merkel on Russian ‘Invasion’ Intel”
    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/01/warning-merkel-on-russian-invasion-intel/

  112. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    3 Sep, 2014 - 7:43 pm

    Al Milliner

    A good post, thank you.

    “I don’t know how someone can get themselves into this sort of state of mind. Too much internet? A loathing of the West so deep-rooted that it allows no room for any other evil in the world?”
    _______________________

    Certainly both of those, and probably a number of other factors also. The internet has a lot to answer for – any fool can post what he or she wants on any number of fora and blogs (especially if lightly moderated like this one) and give voice to their obsessions (cf “Mary”) and they can even start up a blog themselves (cf Mr John Goss). And of course weak-minded, inadequate people working off their personal frustrations or complexes are easily influenced by the fanatics running some of those sites and blogs (“Macky”, “Fedup” and “Passerby” are good examples of such easily influenced minds).

    Scribble down the first thing that comes into you silly little mind, press “send” and you have your couple of seconds of “fame”.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “So 9/11, 7/7, and every terrorist attack since, failed or successful, is a fake. Everything that is happening in the Mid East is at the very least caused but usually orchestrated by the West. All of it staged. How can you argue against that level of insanity?”

    Well, one can’t. As Schiller wrote, “Gegen die Dummheit kaempfen selbst die Goetter umsonst”. Or, if you prefer, “Si tous les cons avaient des ailes, on ne verrait plus jamais le ciel”.

  113. Not fake no, very real events of mass-murder; planes or trucks crashing into things though is just theatre, the resulting flash bang wallop, ineffectual cover for the mini-nukes in the basement. See both Lebanon UN Barrack explosions in October 1983, the mushroom clouds are textbook nuke, whilst the world fulminated over the immediately following Grenada ‘invasion’, embarked on as an urgently needed all-consuming distraction from suspicious events in Beirut. And in Bali and in New York in 2001 of course. First responder and ground zero workers death toll from cancers due to radiation exposure, including leukiemia, now by any standards a holocaust. Who could have done these things, certainly not ‘Islamic Jihad’, an absurd tautology, a fake terror group, existing mainly in the imagination of the western press.

    http://www.911-truth.net/9-11thology-third_truth_v4_full.zip

  114. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 8:47 pm

    @Peacewisher
    Just how stupid was Gorbachev to trust Maggie and the US of A?

    Must be very reassuring for you to have a KGB guy back in charge, especially one with a sound approach to the colonies (or Soviet republics as you might prefer to call them)

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/kazakhstan-russian-neighbour-putin-chilly-nationalist-rhetoric

  115. Is it just me or is the new Poster “Al Milliner” a horrid fusion of Resident Dissident and the Habba-Clown, or maybe even Resident Dissident on Dutch Courage ! Well he has been known to engage in sock-puppeting, as of course has the Habba-Clown; I think my money is on Resident Dissident, as his pet fake self-righteous hobby horse has already been aired by “Al Milliner” with his,” A loathing of the West so deep-rooted that it allows no room for any other evil in the world? “. Maybe I’m being too pre-judgement, as although “Al Milliner” is airing the same carbon copy views, he hasn’t resorted to full blown troll tactics as yet, but I’m watching ! :D

    Anyhow “Al Milliner” is justified in asking Craig for the source of his 15,000 killed iro Sirte, and Craig is being strangely evasive in not be forthcoming; a quick check google check may have provided the answer, as it gave a link to this Guardian article;

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/17/libyan-rebels-capture-bani-walid

    Which has this; “with a diehard group of about 15,000 residents and fighters holding out in several pockets of the city”

    So perhaps the thinking is that practically nobody got out alive, which is not so far-fetched really, as remember what happened to the inhabitants of Tawargha once it was over-run by the “Rebels”, and the NATO bombers literally handed what remained of Sirte to them.

  116. @RD: The world was more stable with two competing superpowers, with mutual respect for each other. Reagan & Thatcher set about changing all that, and Gorbachev was naïve enough to let them. Since the fall of the Soviet Union there has been aggression against Iraq (1991), Yugoslavia (1991), Bosnia (1994), Serbia (1999), Iraq again (1998, 2003), Afghanistan (2001), Libya (2011)… and probably others I can’t remember. What has Russia done outside its borders… nothing, except the recent matters of tiny provinces of Georgia, and of course Crimea!

  117. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:08 pm

    “he hasn’t resorted to full blown troll tactics as yet, but I’m watching !”

    You do rather like the Big Brother role don’t you.

    As for 15,000 killed in the Siege of Sirte – per Wikipedia (in the absence of anything better) your side only claimed between 2 and 3 thousand deaths so I have my doubts that the figure was anywhere near 15,000 as claimed. Of course noi one here is counting the deaths attributable to Ghadaffi

  118. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:17 pm

    “aggression against Iraq (1991), Yugoslavia (1991),”

    Funny how you don’t mention aggression by these countries against Kuwait, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kossovo that occurred first. Or what Russia used do within its borders to its own people and to those in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland and its other colonies where there were less well reported riots in Soviet times.

  119. @Resident Dissident, sorry to disappoint, but the only “side” I have is the one that is against people being murdered so that their natural resources & wealth can be stolen.

    I would of thought the 15,000 figure for people still holed up in Sirte at the end is very feasible, and if so, not many would have been left alive after NATO & the “Rebels” finished with Sirte.

  120. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:21 pm

    “Is it just me or is the new Poster “Al Milliner” a horrid fusion of Resident Dissident and the Habba-Clown, or maybe even Resident Dissident on Dutch Courage !”

    All sensible and sane people are probably a fusion in your mind.

    Al – Macky is just a Stalinist troll with nothing of substance to say if you haven’t worked that out already. Even Craig is rather too establishment for his tastes.

  121. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:23 pm

    “but the only “side” I have is the one that is against people being murdered so that their natural resources & wealth can be stolen.”

    Please point me to your posts against Putin, Assad and Ghadaffi who by that reckoning are not on your side – here or elsewhere will do.

  122. Talking to yourself ResDis? A sure sign of madness you know ! :D

  123. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:27 pm

    Re Sirte

    – I would have thought that if the rebels claimed 15,000 or something similar a sympathiser such as yourself would have posted such a claim on Wikipedia with appropriate support. You see no such reluctance with regard to other conflicts to post numbers for those ki9lled by the US/NATO.

  124. @RD: I agree about aggression by Iraq, and the factions that caused civil war in the previously peaceful Yugoslavia. However, you can’t say that Russia has been much of an aggressor, whilst US has had a free rein (I guess we should be glad there hasn’t been more bloodshed…)

  125. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:28 pm

    Macky

    What you don’t appreciate that for everyone holding your views there are at least 999 who don’t.

  126. Back to full on troll mode again ResDis; not really surprised as you’re too dim to realise it;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

  127. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:35 pm

    “However, you can’t say that Russia has been much of an aggressor,”

    Until Putin came to power perhaps – but to say that there was no aggression by either the US or the Soviet Union in the cold war days just isn’t true by any stretch of the imagination. I think you always forget that even when the US and Russia/USSR are involved there are always other factors/forces that lead to conflicts.

  128. Resident Dissident

    3 Sep, 2014 - 10:44 pm

    Macky

    I was stating a view as to why think all those opposing you are the same person – when you know what a tu quoque is then you can accuse me of using them.

  129. I’m sorry to have aroused the support of milliner with my off topic muses.
    Inadvertandly I have supported his desperate attempts to divert the issue by mentioning something important enough for him to crow and reverb to sidestep the independence debate, not my intention, I’m ready for a keelhauling…..

    please,……not a large containership

    leave you with todays Obama quote from his Estonian gladhanding/armsre-distribution service visit….’ armed conflict cannot be allowed to re-draw borders’….

    fukc me, how come he’s not telling Bibi who will be annexing the Jordanian Kings toilet soon?? and why is he calling the cease fire between Putin and Petroshenko speculative at this point in time when thousands have died in this useless conflict? Is he waiting for some Academi action? does he not want the fighting to stop? what a purile servant to the arms pushers he has become.

  130. I’m sorry to have aroused the support of milliner with my off topic muses.
    Inadvertandly I have supported his desperate attempts to divert the issue by mentioning something important enough for him to crow and reverb to sidestep the independence debate, not my intention, I’m ready for a keelhauling…..

    please,……not a large containership

    leave you with todays Obama quote from his Estonian gladhanding/armsre-distribution service visit….’ armed conflict cannot be allowed to re-draw borders’….

    fukc me, how come he’s not telling Bibi? who will be annexing the Jordanian Kings toilet soon?? and why is he calling the cease fire between Putin and Petroshenko speculative at this point in time when thousands have died in this useless conflict? Is he waiting for some Academi action? does he not want the fighting to stop? what a purile servant to the arms pushers he has become.

  131. @RD: In the days of US v USSR, yes… there was the obvious clash of ideologies.

    But in the post-Soviet era, Russia has been playing the capitalist game, so no reason to be seen as a threat in the same way. I’ve heard Richard Branston and various veterans of US intelligence say in recent days why shouldn’t Russia also be invited to join NATO… then that would solve the whole problem!

  132. @Nevermind: many thousands, it would seem. Incredible URL, but seems to work…

    http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/www.fssb.su/press-center/press-center-info/947-v-nuland-zam-gossekretarya-gosdepartamenta-ssha-dala-licenziyu-na-ubiystva-ukraincev-o.html

    And that doesn’t include civilian casualties!

  133. Also since the fall of the Soviet Union, capitalism has abandoned the moderation it had to adopt when it had communist and fascist competitors, and has revealed its true face. Thus, the fall of Communism has had effects both internationally and domestically within the capitalist countries.

  134. @@Resident Dissident; Oh dear, you really are more stupid than I thought;

    “when you know what a tu quoque is then you can accuse me of using them”

    you mean like this;

    “Please point me to your posts against Putin, Assad and Ghadaffi who by that reckoning are not on your side – here or elsewhere will do”

    Really too bored to be dealing with your moronic Whatabouteries, we were supposed to be discussing Sirte, but since you’ve switched to troll mode, I’ll leave you to play with Peacewisher, who obviously hasn’t learnt yet that trolls can’t engage in logical discussions, not even if their lives depended on it !

  135. September 1 marked 10 years since one of the most horrifying terrorist attacks in Russia, the Beslan school siege which saw over 300 people, 186 of them children, killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ng8GGKHerE

    As expected BBC – the British propaganda machine rudely paints a total lack of compassion, sympathy and sorrow; a total lack of tenderness, warmth and understanding for the tremendous loss to Russian families in Beslan still crying a river after ten years of mourning.

    BBC – YOU FUCKING BASTARDS! Shame on you.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29027981

  136. They are just sticking to the world affairs media narrative manual, Mark. In this case: “children good, Russia bad”.

  137. Very good article Craig. Nothing out of place, nothing contradictory or anything I can find fault with from where I’m standing. Wasn’t really looking for anything out of kilter anyway, just thought I’d offer that after seeing the wee bit indigestion you appear to have caused someone.

    As circumstances change and the context of previous sets or dichotomies shift then quite often so does an opinion that was mibbes a suitable position before. Doesn’t necessarily mean someone’s contradicting themselves. It means they’re moving and adapting with circumstance and setting.

    However, keep up the good work with your blog Craig, enjoying reading your articles.

  138. Ending, as I started, on a positive note. Pleasing to see this article (& comment) in The Guardian. Perhaps Obama has gone over the top this time:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/03/nato-peace-threat-ukraine-military-conflict?commentpage=3

  139. Excellent post Craig.

    Spot on.

  140. A year or two ago I was on a chat site, and mentioned that oil and resources would likely be an important issue in this referendum. Curiously, most posters gave me the internet blank stare, basically wondering what I was talking about. I thought this odd, and still don’t know what to make of it. Clearly oil is a vital issue here, and I’m surprised at their surprise. I didn’t think I was being even slightly controversial. Maybe people are more trusting than I am, and thought this would all be ironed out in post-indy negotiations. Well, possibly. I think it’s going to get rather nasty myself, before, during and even after negotiations. I too, alas, expect a ‘big surprise’ quite soon in Scotland. Keep safe, all.

    For me, the recent war-mongering has been entirely wearisome. The press pack just seem incapable of calling out the Government on their bullshit. ISIS aren’t farmers using home-made weapons. Someone is funding them, and most of us know who. Why does nobody ask Cameron about this? Very odd indeed. Personally I think the military planners in the US have entirely lost their mind. Scotland should leave NATO, and get on with what it’s good at.

  141. Former US presidential candidate and long-time congressman, Ron Paul, who has been accused of loving Jews but hating Israel by the organized Jewry, has denied the “official story” of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

    Last week, in a breaking interview Ron Paul told Charles Goyette, host of podcast ‘Money and Markets’ that Bush administration had the pre-knowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

    “I believe if we ever get the full truth, we will find out that over government had it in the records exactly what the plan were, or at least close to it,” Ron Paul said.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/09/04/ron-paul-911-was-an-inside-job/

  142. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:24 am

    Corporal Macky

    “Really too bored to be dealing with your moronic Whatabouteries, we were supposed to be discussing Sirte..”
    ________________

    Actually, we weren’t – the title of this thread is “After project fear expect project terror”. For fuller details please re-read Craig’s introductory post.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    There now, Corporal – I’ve given you your daily attention, hope you can get on with life now. Have a lovely day!

  143. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 9:28 am

    Illumination of Mr. Blair’s well-deserved award for services to globalisation behind a charitable mask-

    http://greenteeth.blog.co.uk/

    And looking back to the good old days of ‘sexing’ up documents, we also have to ask did Blair call up old chum, the spin doctor of spin doctors Alistair Campbell to ‘sex up’ his pitch for the award, old Al being a recently hired employee of GQ. You really couldn’t make it up, could you?

    Nope.

    http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/comment/articles/2014-01/14/alastair-campbell-joins-gq

  144. Habbu-Clown; “Actually, we weren’t – the title of this thread is”

    Why didn’t you address this to your fellow trolls as they have been going on about it for the last three threads ? It took me all of five minutes to find the answer on Google, and put an end to their ceaseless whining ! :D

    You really are a Clown ! :D :D :D

  145. Peacewisher- many thanks for the link to the Peter Hitchens article that properly admonishes Ben Judah (another hereditary mediacrat) for his relentless warmongering over Ukraine in the NYT.

  146. This is a good argument for an independent Scotland. But ISIS have also threatened to murder a British journalist they are holding. I am not at all sure that if he were a Scot, and the the Yes campaign were to win, that his life would be spared.

    At any rate, if ISIS do take his life, the UK government will have to take action to put them out of business, and that will mean helping the Americans to do it.

  147. John Thomas

    6 Sep, 2014 - 5:17 pm

    Blimey, I used to follow some conspiracy theories like Craig Murray, guess I must’ve grown up or something.

    AFAIK, listening to Cameron and Obama, neither is proposing invading anybody’s country. What kind of ex-ambassador regards another country as simply a “Muslim country” anyway? Guess he’s talking about countries where the majority are Muslims. Countries where populations of other minority religions have lived side-by-side with Muslims in peace for centuries.

    In some of those countries an organisation with some of the characteristics of a state have appeared, but a state which openly boasts of murdering its own citizens where they do not belong to its own narrow version of Islam.

    I could not ask any British soldier to die on my behalf to intervene in Iraq or Syria, but that is not in any case what is currently being proposed.

    Craig Murray appears to regard the only aim as being not enticing “Islamic terrorists ” in Scotland by “invading” “Muslim” countries. This appeasement has happened before. In the 1930’s. When an organisation that did not at the time appear to be as threatening, – as evil – as IS now seems was on the rise in Germany. Appeasement, as history shows, does not work.

    With modern transport and weapons capabilities, left to fester, IS will be blowing down Scottish doors in a very short time. Whether our armed forces are directly involved or not. In the interests of foreign non-Muslims, Muslims, and everybody else, NATO countries should be doing exactly what they are doing – seeking ways to assist local forces in disintegrating the Caliphate. Everyone seems to forget Kosovo. That wasn’t a neo-con conspiracy, there was no oil, just a large minority who needed help facing down Serbian aggression.

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