The Gould Werritty Investigation Continues

by craig on December 9, 2011 12:47 pm in Uncategorized

An MP has been refused by the Commons Table Office when they tried to table a question asking how many meetings Gould had held with Werritty and/or Fox. The Table Office say the question has already been answered – even though we know for certain that the answer given was untrue.

This was the untrue – or at the very least radically unfull – answer cited by the Table Office:

Adam Werritty
Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what meetings HM ambassador to Israel has had with the Secretary of State for Defence (a) in Israel, (b) in the UK and (c)
31 Oct 2011 : Column 374W
elsewhere since May 2010; whether Mr Adam Werritty was present on any such occasion; and which (i) other officials and (ii) other people were present on each occasion. [76970]
Alistair Burt: All meetings which our ambassador to Israel has had with the former Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) since May 2010 are set out in the Cabinet Secretary’s report of 18 October 2011. Our ambassador to Israel was also invited by the former Defence Secretary to a private social engagement in summer 2010 at which Adam Werritty was present.

It is remarkable rule of parliament that apparently once a minister lies about something, parliamentarians are never allowed to ask about it again.

Meantime I have submitted a Freedom of Information request about a Freedom of Information request! I have asked for any notes, minutes, emails or correspondence relating to the handling of my FOI request for the Gould-Werritty correspondence. You may recall that my request was declined on grounds of cost, and dealt with in the remarkable time of just 76 minutes, the answer ebing received at 11.31 pm!

Finally the editor of the Jewish Chronicle has declined to publish the following article, which I submitted to him as a comment piece covering the JC’s promotion of the charges of anti-semitism against Paul Flynn for pursuing the Gould/Werritty issue. This is a shame, because the JC used to give space to liberal views, and because I believe a serious percentage of their readership would have been interested in the other side of the story.

There is a genuine argument that it was not wise to appoint Matthew Gould as Ambassador to Israel, and the accusations of anti-Semitism levelled at MP Paul Flynn MP by Dennis McShane, and reported by Martin Bright in the JC, do not address that argument.

Of course being Jewish does not in any way disqualify Matthew Gould from being a British ambassador. We are fortunate in the UK to have many brilliant Jewish diplomats. Jon Benjamin in Santiago is an example of an absolutely first rate ambassador with whom I was once privileged to work.

But Israel/Palestine remains, beyond dispute, a scene of unresolved conflict. The Israeli government, for example, recognises that conflict by invoking the San Remo Agreement to justify its naval embargo of Gaza. The San Remo agreement only applies in times of armed conflict. The dispute is also witnessed not just by events on the ground, but in diplomatic terms by the whole paraphernalia of Middle East peace negotiation, including the post of Quartet envoy occupied by Tony Blair.

So the situation surrounding Israel is not normal and involves conflict. That is, of course, by no means unique. Nearby Cyprus is subject to a dispute that has many parallels. I was Head of the FCO Cyprus section for three years, and tried hard but failed to make progress in resolving the “Cyprus question”. Winning trust was extremely difficult; it would have been well nigh impossible had I been ethnically Greek or Turkish. For the Head of the FCO Cyprus section, or for our Ambassador in Nicosia, to be ethnically Greek, Turkish or either shade of Cypriot just would not be practically useful. I hope nobody will accuse me of being anti-Greek or anti-Turk for saying so.

Similarly, it is just not helpful to have an Ambassador in Tel-Aviv who is Jewish or Palestinian. It just isn’t practically wise. This is not a matter of high policy. There may be Jews or Palestinians of such exceptional personal qualities they could rise above any suspicion of partisanship and be effective. But Matthew Gould has proven himself not to be that talented.

Matthew’s frequent declarations to the Israeli media of his personal commitment to zionism are neither helpful nor necessary for a diplomat. Take for example this from the Jerusalem Post of 29 May:

“British Ambassador Matthew Gould declared his commitment to Israel and the principles of Zionism on Thursday”
That really is a very peculiar thing for a diplomat, who is supposed to have just the one national commitment, to say. I was dismissed as an Ambassador – by FCO ministers including Dennis McShane – for too strong a personal commitment to human rights. A personal commitment to zionism is by comparison a good thing, apparently.

We also cannot pretend that in 2011 to declare oneself a “zionist” in political terms merely has its 19th century meaning of somebody who believes in the existence of a state of Israel. The readership of the JC knows that the term “zionist” has accrued baggage of support for settlements and a greater Israel, for the annexation of the whole of Jerusalem, and of links with the non-Jewish foreign policy neo-Cons both sides of the Atlantic. who also declare themselves ardent zionists at every opportunity.

It is also worth noting that, of the entertained guests who have passed into Gould’s Tel Aviv residence, a disgruntled British Embassy source tells me that well less than 5% of invites have been to Israeli Arabs who constitute 20% of the population.

Finally, we have to consider the extraordinary relationship of Gould with Adam Fox and Liam Werritty. It has been shown that the trio met at least seven times, including several meetings before the election, according to Gus O’Donnell’s replies to Paul Flynn at the Public Administration Committee. The FCO refuses point-blank to say how many times Gould met Werritty without Fox, and refused within the hour (at nearly midnight!) my emailed Freedom of Information request for the Gould/Werritty correspondence.

No other official was ever present at any of the Fox-Gould-Werritty meetings – one of many strange facts about them. Gus O’Donnell’s report mentions only two of what we now know was a much larger series of meetings. We really need to know what Gould, the “committed zionist”, was doing with the two extreme Atlanticist neo-cons – and why the government is so anxious to hide it..

That is a genuine question, and to scream “anti-semite” at anyone who asks it devalues the term.

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  1. Another quality piece; succinct and to the point. Keep following this up please.

  2. Especially like this bit: “…Adam Fox and Liam Werritty”

  3. Jonangus Mackay

    9 Dec, 2011 - 1:23 pm

    What if Matthew Gould had announced, ‘You cannot do this job without being a passionate supporter of the PLO?’
    Preposterous? Not quite.
    He went so far as to tell the Jewish Telegraph, ‘You cannot do this job without being a passionate Zionist.’
    Diplomatic behaviour? By continuing to entertain this idiot savant, Her Majesty’s diplomatic service risks making itself at best a global laughing stock.

  4. The idea of a FoI request over an FoI response had me in stitches, I recon this one will be a long and ardeous wait. An excellent testing article the jewish cronicle did not pass, how long did it take them to say NO to it?

    Should one open a book?
    7/5 that A. Werritty met Gould more times than Liam Fox did, or
    11/12 that the three are innocent as charged here. Small print: bets depend on a prolonged FCO game called FoI ‘R’Us.

    Been to Famagusta and remember the borderline runing straight through it, there is no love lost between Cypriot Greeks and Turks, their conflict is as protracted, although its arguable that the excesses and restrains apparent on Israels relationship with the Palestinian people, if you can call the conflict a relationship, are far harsher and dictatorial than in the Cypriot conflict.

  5. Craig,
    “British Ambassador Matthew Gould declared his commitment to Israel and the principles of Zionism on Thursday”
    That really is a very peculiar thing for a diplomat, who is supposed to have just the one national commitment, to say. I was dismissed as an Ambassador – by FCO ministers including Dennis McShane – for too strong a personal commitment to human rights. A personal commitment to zionism is by comparison a good thing, apparently.”
    That statement encapsulates the complete argument. I personally would go further by transposing ‘peculiar’ with ‘intrinsically corrupt’ or ‘distinctly tactless’ in gracious terms.

  6. Another point, I think that your artcile will be published many times over, thanks to the JC’s ponderances. I’m sure that PEye will not leave this chance tethered.

  7. That looks like the product of enormous deliberation and care, Craig. Diplomatic, in the best sense, and wholly publishable. As you say, the JC is capable of printing views dissenting from its own: I cannot see why this was rejected.
    However, as a piece on R4 this morning mentioned, there is something of a turf war going on between British Liberal/Reform and Orthodox Jews at the moment, with Sachs’ successorship as the central issue. It might just be that the JC doesn’t want to give hostages to either side.
    (Unworthy thought: what if the BBC reflected the demographic of the country and gave ten times as much time to Muslim issues as Jewish ones? Only the Archers would be left)

  8. Craig,
    Seldom, I have enjoyed reading a piece, as I did reading your post. The refusal of JC to publish your contentions, clearly are indicative of their intent to carry on with their one sided, and unbalanced approach. In their failure to introduce some balance and coherence into the furore of their own making, less charitable souls could misinterpret the refusal to publish as an attempt to obfuscate the nature of actualities, through conflation of the remarks made by Paul Flynn, and charges of antisemitism. In an effort to hinder the processes of accountability and transparency, which are of vital importance to any kind of a society seeking to maintain a modicum of democratic checks and balances.
    On the lighter side, having found you are secret anti Greek, anti Turk, and anti both at the same time was amusing. Although the lessons therein, for those whom seek knowledge and education are invaluable, given the spirit of humanity that has offered these lessons so freely and without any expectation for any returns.
    Thanks for the read Craig.

  9. Craig, Great Article and Of course they would call you anti-Smite, after all they have managed to shut everyone else up by screaming anti-Smite, Holocaust denier!
    I sometime wonder if they realize that these words have passed their sell by dates!

  10. An FOI request about an FOI request?
    Joseph Heller eat your heart out!

  11. Indeed, Jives, pure Heller.
    I have left a copy of your article on the der Spiegel magazine’s newsdesk with a contact detail, who knows whether they bite.

  12. Passerby,
    You said, “In their failure to introduce some balance and coherence into the furore of their own making, less charitable souls could misinterpret the refusal to publish as an attempt to obfuscate the nature of actualities, through conflation of the remarks…”
    I have experienced the same obfuscation through conflation with ‘conspiracy theorist’ to create fallacy, illusion, ridicule and humiliation in my own and others attempts at unraveling and extricating the truth buried deep in the events surrounding the London bombings. Despite attempts at throttling his work, Tom Secker has produced a brand new investigative and analytical documentary which I link and also apologise for going off topic:

  13. Raquel Scotch

    9 Dec, 2011 - 2:45 pm

    Invite is a verb.
    The noun is invitation.

  14. Solute to British Briends of Israel. Paul Flynn M.P. apologised for doubting the British Ambassador to Israel Matthew Gould’s loyalty to Britain.

    However, Ben Obama has refused to fire his Jewish ambassador ro Belgium, Howard Gutman, for blaming Israel for fuelling anti-Semitism among Muslims – At least for the time being!

  15. Bit of a kick in the kishkes here (breaking)
    I wish I had the same PR team working on antidragonism.

  16. Raquel Scotch: good point; I missed that having already been derailed by the “less than” earlier in the same sentence ¹.

    Apart from that pedantry, excellent article. It’s funny but I don’t recall any election manifestos by any of the major parties promising support for Israel’s actions outside the borders which have been acknowledged over the last few decades.

    ¹ Yes, I have joined a longer queue in a supermarket rather than use the “Less than 10 items” till. “Fewer than 10 items” or “Less than 10 kg” would have been fine.

  17. Another brilliant blog Mr Murray. Why would an organ as powerful as the Jewish Chronicle refuse to publish such a well-argued and important letter? Why did Robert Halfon not allow my comments on his blog? Isn’t democracy about other people being able to argue their case, even if it is not in line with editorial policy?
    A listener from Suffolk was allowed to explain why it is necessary to remove Iran’s nuclear capability on George Galloway’s radio programme.
    I won’t spoil it for you.

  18. Just found this comment on CiF Seumas Milnes article, now closed. So the Guardianhas finally come to conclusion that its OK to publish what others have published before.

    ” DamePeggyMountJr
    8 December 2011 9:09AM
    All this in the context of the whitewash investigation into the Fox-Werrity scandal where Gus O’Donnell somehow managed to over-look a number of meetings they had with our ambassador to Israel, Matthew Gould.

    Some very serious accusations have been made about these meetings – notably that at least one took place with representatives of Mossad and specifically discussed preparations for military action against Iran. The government refuses to provide the correspondence that could shed light on the situation (namely correspondence between Gould and either Werrity or Fox – which ought to be easy enough, what with one of them being employed by the FCO).

    So in the light of the debacle in Iraq, we’ve got a government who chooses not to take seriously accusations of a minister of state and a serving ambassador possibly conspiring with a foreign power to ferment another war against a sovereign nation.

    Here we go again…

  19. I see (link above) that Sir Robert Atkins was induced to apologise for his observation that the Israelis’ treatment of Gaza was reminiscent of the persecution of Jews last century. And oh, the indignation!
    Here’s Stephen Pollard, editor of the Jewish Chronicale, in similar vein:
    “Writing about the disruption of an appearance by the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra on 1 September 2011 at the BBC Proms he asserted that the actions of pro-Palestinian activists had a “chilling air” reminiscent of “the way Nazi party members broke up meetings” in Weimar Germany.[8]”
    (Wikipedia: Stephen Pollard.)
    So Stephen doesn’t do irony, then.

  20. It’s odd – the Guardian have published an article by Marina Hyde criticising Nick Clegg

    Perhaps things are about to change there?

    On the other hand …

  21. No he does not Komodo. here is more proof that Israels ‘iron dome’ is an abject failure. Still the missiles are not intercepted making reprisals unecessarry, or, hang on, is this ongoing killing of civilians and alledged terrorists designed to stop Hamas and Fatah organising and uniting?

    Seumas Milne argues that the festive Iran war has already started, others say that a Syrian opposition would break links with Iran, war noises galore, I give it another week or two for something to break seriously.

  22. Is Werritty dead? One of the best things that could happen to Adam Werritty from the neocons point of view is a premature death. There have been no sightings of him for more than a month. He is under police investigation, but the Leveson Inquiry, in which the police are accused of being paid by the press for information about the whereabouts of certain individuals could not have come at a better time for him and his corrupt cronies. Perhaps we should raise our concerns about his whereabouts. The longer he is at liberty the more chance there is of him:
    a) being murdered like Dr David Kelly
    b) faking his death like John Stonehouse
    c) vanishing like Houdini or the Cheshire Cat
    Until I know different I can only assume they’ve done him in.

  23. Is Mary all right? Haven’t heard from her for a week, when she was off to hear a Palestinian speak the next day.

  24. @ John Goss,
    Mary posted earlier today or last night.

  25. Thanks Jives, must have missed it.

  26. Brilliant letter, Craig. It just demonstrates how very biased that specific media organ is that the editor cannot countenanace what is a very rational argument – and one which they ought to give their readers the opporuntunity to assess. Apart from anything else, they are patronising thir own readership. What a shame (in both sense of the word).

    On the broader canvas, unfortunately, in my experience, many (I hesitate to say, all) of these ‘mainstream’ media organs, self-appointed ‘representatives’ and projections of the Jewish community in the UK, seem simply to be uninterested in engaging in/allowing for any form of real dialogue or exposure to anything which exemplies the complexity of issues relating to the Levant, or to possible alternative and/or imaginative readings/writings of the Muslim/Jewish interaction, etc., let alone actual critique. I’m afraid I’ve given up trying with them. It’s a waste of time.

  27. Satan Clause

    9 Dec, 2011 - 6:44 pm

    “…accusations of anti-Semitism levelled at MP Paul Flynn MP by Dennis McShane”

    What, the Dennis McShane who also happens to be on the Policy Council for Labour Friends of Israel and just happens to be a corrupt snout-in-the-trough parasite? Paul Flynn is obviously a speaker of truth and integrity in that case.

    “On 14 October 2010, it was announced that the Parliamentary Labour Party had suspended the whip from MacShane while he is under criminal investigation in respect of his expenses claims.”

  28. Yes, MacShane is a neocon, an avid supporter of US/UK wars, etc.

  29. Apparently Argentine is mending ties with Iran and telling EU to get lost. Their Foreign Secretary in an interview with Iranian TV said ” the European Union, which is insisting on Buenos Aires to downgrade trade ties with Tehran, is Iran’s main trade partner followed by China, India and Japan. This is a clear case of double standard and do as say and not as I do”.
    On the other hand Japan is imposing new sanction in place yet refuses to curb Iranian crude oil imports! maybe Iran will stop exporting crude oil to Japan, plenty of other takers!

  30. Satan Clause

    9 Dec, 2011 - 6:56 pm

    “(Unworthy thought: what if the BBC reflected the demographic of the country and gave ten times as much time to Muslim issues as Jewish ones? Only the Archers would be left)”

    Someone should do a survey on how many times Jews get positively mentioned by R4 compared to all other religious groups.

    It’s beyond a joke considering Jews constitute less than 1/3 of 1 percent of the British population. What about the remaining 99.7% who are not Jews, do we really have to swallow their propaganda quietly and uncomplaining?

  31. Hi Suhayl, you were not around for a while..were you busy with writing another book or just had a break from the blog?? hope all is well.

  32. An excellent article. But anti-Semitic, as Jon Stewart remarked of the Fox News motto “Fair and Balanced.”
    You say: “It is remarkable rule of parliament that apparently once a minister lies about something, parliamentarians are never allowed to ask about it again.”
    But that is not true, surely, provided that someone is willing to indicate by some acceptable circumlocution that the minister lied. In that case, evidence must be presented leading either the the minister’s resignation or I am not sure what for the person making the false allegation.
    The only case in relatively recent times that I am aware of was of George Wigg who accused John Profumo of adultery with a call-girl, which led to the Minister’s resignation.
    When Winston Churchill was accused of a lie, he evaded the issue by admitting to a “terminological inexacctitude.” In the present case perhaps the minister will find refuge in the admission of a “numerical inexactitude.”

  33. Of course, I meant that George Wigg accused Profumo not of his adultery, but of lying to Parliament about his adultery with the rather nice looking Christine Keeler, though I actually preferred her friend the very nice looking Mandy Rice-Davies.

  34. FoI request on FoI request. Love it. There is no end to this reductio. A brilliant stroke.

    How much paperwork exists on the first refusal? On the second (one presumes) refusal?

    Sheer genius.

    Craig, your FCO education was not wasted. Not one whit.

    Also the JC story, which is irrefutable.

    Keep up the good work.

  35. I once received an apology from a reporter for messing me up unfairly in the course of my responding to his FoI request.

    My first reaction was to wonder about the apology as I realised that that too was subject to FoI.

    My second reaction was to get over the paranoia and I have since had great respect for that particular reporter.

  36. Thanks, Azra. Just work, work, work…

  37. Good to see Craig keeps up the pressure.
    Would like to ask the Israeli Government if they would be happy with a British Muslim ambassador. I reckon not. Doubt if UK Government would even consider appointing one.

  38. Israel releases photo of Iran mega-weapon that threatens Israel

  39. Can we not strike the word ‘anti-Semite’ from the dictionary?
    Given that the Ashkenazis occupying Palestine aren’t Semitic, and that the Palestinians whose genocide they relentlessly seek, are, surely it deserves some variety of banishment.
    As for ‘devalued’, too late!

  40. Only slightly off-thread: Are the BBC finally bothering to ask some very fundamental questions about democracy and justice in this country?

    You never know!

  41. United States is too going through its “Jewish Ambassador Scandal”. Howard Gutman, US ambassador to Belgium, is being chased by Israel Lobby for blaming Israel for fuelling ‘anti-Semitism’ in Europe and the Muslim world.

  42. Craig,

    As am ethnic Cypriot (what a mongrel race we are) I’d be fascinated to here mote of your days at the Cyprus FCO desk.

  43. Attack on freedom of speech at University of Surrey {} Laughable that Benny Morris is quoted.
    Reported on EI – “British campus watch organisation” Student Rights attacks Palestine solidarity
    By Ben White, 8 December 2011
    “British campus watch organisation” Student Rights attacks
    Palestine solidarity in name of ‘balance’. Group says it’s
    “non-ideologically aligned”, but intimately supported by
    right-wing think tank Henry Jackson Society.

    I reckon Israel knows it is going down hence the stance of the cornered snarling pitbull.

  44. Continuing with the theme of pitbulls and bulldogs, here is Rosindell who was exhorting Cameroon to show some bulldog spirit in Brussels. No doubt he was one of the cosy group having a celebratory dinner with Cameroon at Chequers last night.
    The bulldog with the bull terrier. He did nicely out of his expenses. Is that what is meant by the ‘bulldog spirit?

    I note from his register of interests which is a fertile area for investigation that he visited Uzbekistan:
    Name of donor:
    (7)Uzbekistan Airways
    (8)Oliy Majilis of Uzbekistan
    (9)CCC Group of Companies
    Address of donor:
    (7)1 Devonshire Street
    (8)100035, Tashkent, Uzbekistan, 1 Bunyodkor Street
    (9)11A West Halkin Street, London SW1 X8J
    Amount of donation (or estimate of the probable value):
    (7)Flight upgrade; value £1,095
    (8)Accommodation in Tashkent; value £745.20
    (9)£2,534.98 international and domestic flights to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan (£1,466.40), together with hotel subsistence in Tashkent (£220.35) and accommodation and subsistence in Kazakhstan (£236.12 – Almaty; £612.11-Astana).
    Destination of visit: Tashkent, Uzbekistan; Almaty and Astana, Kazakhstan.
    Date of visit: 21-30 September 2010
    Purpose of visit: to participate in visit of All-Party Parliamentary Group for Central Asia including the signing of a MOU with the Oliy Majilis of Uzbekistan and discussions with the Majilis of Kazakhstan.
    and this. Same sort of thing as the United and Cecil Club?
    Name of donor: The Westminster Club
    (b) Address of donor: private
    (b) Amount of donation or nature and value if donation in kind: reimbursement for local campaign literature and information, and political support; value £5,600
    (b) Date of receipt: 4 November 2011
    (b) Date of acceptance: 4 November 2011
    (b) Donor status: friendly society


    IT’S WAR, BABY !

    Robert Fisk has ripped the mask off the face of USUK Empire fascism, in the shape of both the governments and the criminal bankers.

    Read it before it gets censored, to, ER, ‘protect freedom and democracy,’ and, ER, USUK Empire Fascism. ; )

    Giving the USUK Empire some freedom and democracy, with both barrels! –

    – ‘Bankers are the Dictators of the West,’ by Robert Fisk – December 10, 2011 – UK Independent –

    Exciting times indeed, when a journalist gadfly, albeit with an Establishment establishment Muppet Stream Media organ, finally decides to hoist the Black flag, _and_ it gets printed! –

    “Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.” – HL Mencken

    And for Robert Fisk it appears that that time is now! ; ) –

    Because friends don’t let friends remain in ignorance of the USUK Empire fascists and their murderous psychopathic attacks on the mass of humanity?

  46. Jives,
    Interesting link – seems like agent Cameron and Mrs May are minions of Murdoch. I am still mindful of the way Vince Cable was booted sideways when he ‘declared war’ on Murdoch and the lacky brown-nose Jeremy Hunt, was installed to rule the Murdoch bid could go ahead. No wonder we still celebrate Guy Fawkes!

  47. British politicians have been bought and paid for by the Zionists.
    You would expect people who serve the parliament of one country would keep it a secret if their loyalties lie with another country, but here in the UK they wear their foreign loyalties as a badge of honour.
    They make no secret of the fact that they are the Conservative Friends of Israel, the Labour Friends of Israel and the Liberal Friends of Israel.
    The only question that arises is, are any of them Friends of Britain?
    I don’t think so?

  48. Arsalan,
    Friends of Britain is in place. The web-site and Facebook group will promote its twin aims of supporting Palestine’s bid for Statehood and promoting Britain as a country free from austerity, growing inequality, unemployment, tax injustice and a political elite who ignores its citizens.
    With 200 activists as potential members – alongside 20% of Coalition MPs – FOB is WILL BE active at every level of this Coalition and future new political parties. FOB will organise additional ‘Occupy’ events in and around the City of London, campaign for supporting the right candidates in target seats, and works to ensure that the British people’s concerns are properly represented in Parliament, the EU and the UN.
    Coming soon to your desktop, please join and express your views:

  49. Mary returns in some force, I see. :)
    The only Westminster Club I can find is in British Columbia – and I don’t think it;s a “friendly society”, Not in Westminster, London, England, anyway:
    Most mysterious. Well spotted.
    And Jives, good catch on Gingrich, winner of the Republican Crawler Of The Year (so far) Award, as he goes for the Christian Zionist vote and AIPAC’s blessing on his campaign.
    “Remember, there was no Israel as a state. It was part of the Persian/Roman//Arab/Byzantine/Ottoman Empire” until the early 20th century”, Gingrich didn’t say.

    “I think that we’ve had an invented Israeli people who are in fact mostly Europeans and who were historically part of the European community.”

  50. Mark Golding,
    Careful with that FOB campaign though…you might get an inundation of the EDL…:)

  51. Yes I wondered about that Jives (EDL, NF). However they do not have a monopoly on the word Britain. However I’ve liked the Facebook page, if it’s the one with the labrador. The link on your post Mark does not work, takes us to some Domain Search facility.
    What I do think needs to be clearly stated is that it supports Palestine’s, and other countries, right to be a free state, supports those who take on oppression, opposes financial greed and other ideals.

  52. Thanks John Goss – yes a ‘holding’ page for the domain until I get the artwork done for the site – all will be revealed sometime this Sunday. Good points John – anyone – please feel free to rewrite the ‘about’ or ‘what we do’ paragraphs – I think a strong effective statement is required – no prizes for the best except a satisfying, well pleased and gratifying permanent place online.

  53. From the same register of Rosindell’s interests
    Several £thousands from the Iman Foundation, chairman Ribal Al-Assad, in straight monetary donations and funding for a trip to Lebanon. Ribal Al-Assad is a nephew of President Assad and is seeking for ‘a united opposition to the Syrian government’. His father, who lives in luxury in London with the son next door, is described as a war criminal by Robert Fisk.
    . Chairman of Iman Foundation
    {} He calls for a ‘united Syrian opposition’ on Sky News
    On the list of other destinations for Rosindell are Qatar, Bahrain, Gibraltar, Switzerland, Guernsey. Turks and Caicos Islands, China, Syria, Malta, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Kuwait, Canada, Isle of Man, Cyprus, USA, Canada and St Kitts and Nevis. All these ‘visits’ took place over the last 9 years. Romford, his constituency, doesn’t get much of a look in.

  54. @ John Goss,
    They don’t have a monolpy on the word English either John but i don’t suppose they’ll care too much at what they appropriate if it serves them…

  55. @ Jives The NYT version of that unbelievable utterance from Newt Gingrich.


  56. Thanks Jives. I guess moderation might be needed if there is an attempt to circumvent the intented objectives. Also it might be a useful to carefully target supporters. But I’m up for the initiative!

  57. @ Mary;
    The Westminster Club is in Romford. Still funny, though: looks like a residence. 55 Crossways:,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=726&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=club+romford+crossways&fb=1&hq=club&hnear=0x47d8bb4437958047:0x29be2daa4c5c8263,Crossways,+Romford,+UK&ei=Z0_jTtiYKtOwhAfv_r3mAQ&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=image&sqi=2&ved=0CAUQtgM

  58. Not a very helpful link, sorry. I’ll try this:,0.204367&cbll=51.584209,0.204366&thumbpegman=1&w=300&h=118
    Note to mods; might it be possible to allow editing of posts by the poster?

  59. Welcome back Mary – Ben White’s post will be a great opener to the Palestine section of ‘Friends of Britain’ – Cheers!

  60. 55, Crossroads, Romford, is the home address of one Councillor Lynden Thorpe, female, and, unsurprisingly, Conservative. She is deputy mayor of Havering, and is listed as Rosindell’s PA. The house last changed hands for £580,000 in 2006. The Westminster Club does not appear to exist separately, and if the dour old bat whose house it is has anything to do with lapdancing I am not an evil old reptile.

  61. Here is Congressman Dennis Kucinich on that ‘lost’ drone –
    “We have to be very careful that we don’t stumble into a wider war
    here. If we are in Iran’s airspace with anything that belongs to
    the US, that’s a provocation,” said Congressman Dennis Kucinich.

  62. @ Mary,
    Thanks for that fascinating link.David A. Harris is absolutely correct;it doesn’t appear the Newt is ready for “prime time” if that is his “interpretation” of the situation.It’s almost as if the Newt doesn’t want a solution.Wouldn’t surprise me though.Welcome back Mary btw :)

  63. @Mary:
    Questions (for anyone interested): Why is Rosindell registering a donation from the Westminster Club (which does not exist except as a concept) at an address given as the residence of his PA? Did Thorpe give him the money? And if so, why did he not declare it as such? Did someone else give him the money? And if so, who? And why was this not declared as such?

  64. komodo
    Sacks is head of the Council for Christians and Jews in the UK.
    His recent reference to Dr Rowan Williams as a primate, was deliberately insulting, in my opinion.
    The archbishop reflected on whether Christianity was an import or an export to the Middle East. The truth is that the Emperor Constantine, decreed that the Trinity was the only doctrine which his church recognised, and he fought many wars in Africa against those Christians who took the Judaic and now Islamic doctrine of the Oneness of God. So if the Archbishop were to think a little deeper, which of course he is paid not to do, he would see that his C of E Christianity is indeed, verily, an import to the Middle East.

  65. Jives
    “He is also very hostile to the European Union. The reason for this is only the EU have to power to regulate his desire to obtain monopoly control of the media. British politicians are too frightened of his power to take him on.”

  66. [Brilliant article by Robert Fisk.Well worth a read.

    ‘Yes Fisk is on the ball yet again.

  67. “Vicious reader comments left on JPost article on Tamimi”
    Never doubt that Israel means well.
    Read the talkbacks to the Jerusalem Post story on Mustafa Tamimi’s critical injury, then death during Nabi Saleh demonstration from IDF tear gas cannister to the face, reportedly fired at close range. [yesterday – nuid]
    From just the first five:
    illiniwek: “The only thing the illegal alien arab moslem terrorist understands is brute force so therefore, the IDF should be using live rounds with shoot to kill orders for any rock thrower regardless of age and gender…”
    John DeLancy: “…the Arab Muslmis are trying to kill Jews and the IDF hits back. Only, Hashem is protecting His people, the Jews. And He is not protecting the enemies of His chosen. “
    AmIsraelchaielYahud: “Now with half his face gone he will only be half the trouble.”
    Viiit: “That’s the price we pay for having them within the Land of Israel. The[y] have to go”
    Joseph Dana (@ibnezra) who reports from the West Bank (‘primarily for the Mail & Guardian’) tweeted a few hours ago:
    “Army Spokeswoman @AvitalLeibovich rationalized her army’s behavior in Nabi Saleh yesterday with the following photo
    I’m so angry … look at the picture she posted.

  68. “Never doubt that Israel means well.”

  69. Nuid:
    Question (another) is, how long in microseconds would similar comments about Israelis, never mind Jews, last on the CiF?

  70. If you’re not signed into Twitter and can’t access the other link, try this one:
    Here’s the report from CNN:
    No point in them calling it an “illegal riot” since all demonstrations there are illegal, according to the Israelis.

  71. “how long in microseconds would similar comments about Israelis, never mind Jews, last on the CiF?”
    Exactly, Komodo. It’s a farce, what goes on on CiF.

  72. I wonder if you can get the Jewish chronicle to comment on this Mr Murray,or our government or any MP for that The Prop Masters,

  73. I suggest that before it is too late, all commenters here join:

    1. Stop the War Coalition:
    2. Palestine Solidarity Campaign:

    Today US Republican Presidential candidate Newt Gingrich described the Palestinians as an ‘invented people’ – the most active endorsement yet of Israel’s ongoing programme of ethnic cleansing of Palestine by any mainstream American politician:

    The campaign for war against Iran has almost nothing to do with Iran’s nuclear programme, and everything to do with Israel’s desire to aggravate tensions elsewhere in the Middle East, drawing attention away from its ongoing degradation and dispossession of the Palestinians.

  74. Little bit off topic but…

    Military to Gain Power of Indefinite Detention in Senate Bill

    Amendment to NDAA gives military the right to operate on American soil, detain people without trial for an indefinite period of time including US citizens.

  75. Nuid.It’s a farce, what goes on on CiF.

    I will second that now that I have to go thru moderation just to get anything posted there. Seems they take exception to any posts that criticise Israel whatsoever,jokers.

  76. Well dug up Komodo. Spade as sharp as ever I see. Why is Rosindell so coy about the address of the ‘Club’ if there’s nothing to hide. Do you too smell rotten fish?
    I laughed when I looked up the Cllr. Her photo here {} and her register of interests
    She’s fond of horses. Similar to Ann Widdecombe who likes donkeys but preferably only those in the ‘Holy Land’. The Israelis are so kind to donkeys but are not very kind to their owners. {}

    I note that two of the MEPs listed on that site are Charles Tannock Con who is vice chair of European Friends of Israel and Baroness Ludford a fervent member of LD Friends of Israel. Good Zionist support in the area.
    Thanks Jives and Mark. Just needed a break after the recent ‘flaming’.

  77. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements – off-topic]

  78. Let’s hope this idiot does not gain power in America in the next election. Already plans to help Israel attack Iran and wants to move the US embassy to Jerusalem. What a dick.

    Gingrich Calls For ‘Joint Operations’ With Israel To Attack Iran’s Nuclear Program

  79. Craig,
    One can only hope that this discussion is taking place within the foreign office and the best interests of Britain emerge as policy. What do you think? Is this the likely scenario or has the process become so subject to lobbyist influence that it it is corrupt.

  80. Rep. Ron Paul is the only GOP presidential hopeful, who is not competing with his opponents (Romney, Gingrich, Cain and Bachmann) to prove “who loves the Jews the most and hates Iran the most“.

    On Thursday, speaking at the Iowa State Campus in Ames, Iowa – Ron Paul claimed that Bush administration was happy after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

    “Think of what happened after 9/11, the minute before there was any assessment, there was glee in the administration because now we can invade Iraq and so the war drum beat. That’s exactly what they’re doing with Iran“.

  81. I agree Rehmat.
    Adding to Jives link it seems agent Cameron turned his back and was isolated in Europe. By alienating EU members he may have jeopardised and eroded investment in the City. Very unsubtle for an Eton education!

  82. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements – off-topic]

  83. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements – off-topic]

  84. @ Mary:
    Cllr. Thorpe’s fondness for horses is possibly the only point in her favour. I can’t fault her on that. There are areas where I am not a right-on Trot, and that is one of them. (incipient pun alert).
    Crab: the reason for the multiple posts is usually that you only get one link per post before the automoderator kicks in; you need to post twice to get two links.
    [Mod/jon – partly removing discussion about past disagreements – off-topic]

  85. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements – off-topic]

  86. “charges of anti-semitism against Paul Flynn for pursuing the Gould/Werritty issue.”

    This is the pathetic state of affairs we have now reached when anyone dares to suggest that a Jew or Israel might be wrong or unjustified in something they have said or done. Out comes the accusations from Zionists and their supporters of anti-semitism. No one is allowed to disagree or question anything about the Israeli policy on Palestine or Palestinians without being labelled an anti-semite. No one is allowed to question anything full stop. Do Zionists and Israel not realise how sick to death we liberals are of this stupid accusation. If liberals in 1930’s Germany had publicly criticised the policies and activities of the Nazis, would they have been anti-German, or anti-aryan. Hind sight has shown that had the liberals in 1930’s Germany had a forum and organisation to enable meaningful and effective opposition to the Nazi state activities the dreadful atrocities might, just might have never happened. It’s always the same with the right in any form and time in history, debate is not allowed, they have the monopoly on intelligent thinking, they have to be applauded and totally supported in everything they say or do, discussion, compromise, is not tolerated. Pathetic.

  87. Alec Ward…[charges of anti-semitism against Paul Flynn for pursuing the Gould/Werritty issue.”

    This is the pathetic state of affairs we have now reached when anyone dares to suggest that a Jew or Israel might be wrong or unjustified in something they have said or done. Out comes the accusations from Zionists and their supporters of anti-semitism. No one is allowed to disagree or question anything about the Israeli policy on Palestine or Palestinians without being labelled an anti-semite]

    Yes it certainly is pathetic and what is even more pathetic is that the Media never really questions it,like with Paul Flynn,there was no one commenting on what he said was right. It was just all bout demonising him and obviously it worked as he had to back down and apologise,which is sad because what he said is true.

  88. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements – off-topic]

  89. I agree Alec Ward and such accusations only serve to stifle and suffocate intelligent debate or weaken any argument based on reason, logic and humanitarian advancement. For the gutless press the strategy of avoidance is clear when addressing biased and discriminatory issues such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Which returns me to ‘Jives’ link in which Robert Fisk says:
    “It reminds me so much of the equally craven way that so many American reporters cover the Middle East, eerily avoiding any direct criticism of Israel, abetted by an army of pro-Likud lobbyists to explain to viewers why American “peacemaking” in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be trusted, why the good guys are “moderates”, the bad guys “terrorists”.
    That ridiculous and senseless bias can be observed in the flaky war criminal Antony Blair in his role as Middle East Peace Envoy. His ‘Bush’ imprint has cast an incredulous shadow over the position and even when we lob a cursory glance at this man’s history we immediately realise he was responsible for appointing Michael Abraham Levy (Lord Levy) as his own Special Envoy to The Middle East. This post lasted for nine year until Blair’s own appointment (!) and achieved absolutely zilch for the Palestinians. Remarkably or not Levy’s son Daniel has in fact served as an assistant to the former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, so he was in a post that could hardly be described as supportive of Palestinian aspirations! Lord Levy praised Blair in the Jerusalem Post for his “solid and committed support of the State of Israel.”
    Yes indeed pathetic and systemic or built into the system of modern British politics. It makes one want to set the heart on a sustained metamorphosis, an ‘about face’ away from 30 yrs of British foreign policy stagnation, corruption and deception. The British public have finally woken up to this ruse. Silence and obfuscation is no longer an option.

  90. Jusus Christ, Crab, will you let it go. This has been going on on another thread also, with multiple people attacking Ken. And then when he defends himself he’s told to “let it go.” Well, LET IT GO.

  91. It all makes sense now..

    It’s not the Twilight Zone.
    It’s not the Outer Limits.
    Nope, it’s not even the Bermuda Triangle.

    It’s much more (ha ha) existential than any of those.

    It was never born nor ever dies.

    It’s the Yehuda Triangle..

  92. Back on topic, -ish, The Russians are coming!
    Suppose he’s scared they’ll start mixing it with the Israelis already here….
    [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements – off-topic]

  93. In words of one syllable, Judaism, original Unitarian Christinity and Islam were all founded in the Middle East. Trinitarian Christianity and Zionism and many other false religions like Sikhism were invented in the West for dividing and ruling purposes.
    Why is this important? Because in the current heating conflict between Islam and the West you have to take into account that the West historically has been prepared to use religion as a weapon, for economic and political gain through its divisive force.
    Most of you here bury your heads in the sand and say that religion is irrelevant. That’s like saying tax is irrelevant even though we pay VAT at 20% on everything we purchase.
    Similarly we are paying a heavy price in human terms for the divisions that cynical politicians have created through religion.
    I banged my head on a pipe this week. I might just as well have banged it on a brick wall instead. 1/ It would have been blunter and 2/ nobody on this blog ever reads a word I write.

    all analysis of world politics that starts with the economics, the manoevering for power and resoiurces

  94. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements]

  95. Anno, I hate to disagree with you, but I often (not always) read your comments. Any hierarchical religion is constructed to give the lucky hierarchy power over mens’ minds, agreed. But whether they are founded with that in mind is perhaps another matter. Christianity beagn among a pretty powerless group of people, who were regarded as outcast heretics from Judaism – we can date the rot from St. Paul – and by the time of Claudius Christians had become a damn nuisance to the ruling class. Which was very tolerant of religious and racial differences, and very little else. Islam is not in itself hierarchical. Only when someone has the bright idea of having an Islamic Republic or a Wahhabi State does it become so; normally there is no Grand High Panjandrum Imam (unlike the small-c catholic Churches with their Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury), and the political effectiveness of modern Islam is perhaps better seen in the utterly ineffective Arab League than in the autocracy-with-a clerical face currently running Iran with a nod and a wink to what we call democracy.
    Sikhism, invented in the West? Wasn’t its intention to unify Hinduism and Islam? Pity it didn’t work, say I.

  96. Crab, please don’t feed it.

  97. Following on from the excellent Fisk article :- A prime example of the ability of banksters to seamlessly revolve around the spiv merry-go-round is Howard Davies, former director of the LSE who recently resigned after accepting donations from Libya into the LSE’s bank account. Prior to this Davies was a banker, a UK treasury advisor, a director of the CBI, even a foreign diplomat, then became the first chief of the Financial Services Authority at exactly the time the FSA drew up its NON regulation of the city which opened the floodgates of city corruption, fraud and bent mortgages, pensions, loans and derivatives. Under Davies’s watch (1997-2003) the FSA stood by while the banks, and with the approval of their pals the “ratings” agencies, conceived a plan to gamble the nation’s savings away on dodgy loans and sub prime mortgages, leading to the loss of hundreds of billions which now the tax payer is burdened with paying off for years to come.

    Davies’s reward for doing precisely NOTHING at the FSA to stem the tide of banking profligacy was a knighthood. He even had a stint at the Audit Commission. His circular route through every imaginable institution left largely a trail of either financial or morally corrupt destruction, yet earning greater salaries and more bonuses at each stage of a lamentable career that was high on ambition and exceedingly low on performance or of any perceivable use.

    He is a classic example of Fisk’s references to those men who spend a lifetime circulating around the exclusive clubs of insider spivs and who wander aimlessly between universities, government, banks, “regulation” and vested interests, sometimes doing two complete rounds of the whole funfair, and at each stop leaving chaos in their wake only to be re-employed at vast salaries to play repeated havoc without hindrance in yet another club branch of the inner circle of greed.

    Once any member of these societies for dysfunctional toads take hold, they seem to be imbude with an unstoppable ability to invade ANY area of public life without ever being held to account for their utter lack of self-reflection, regret or behaviour. Indeed, Mr Davies regularly appears in broadcasting and printed media for his respected “wisdom” and considered views on the debacles which currently afflict our economy, while somehow his own history of complete incompetence, and his direct influence on those disasters has been magically ignored.

    It would be unfair just to pick on him though. There are hundreds of MPs, peers, business tycoons, regulators and officials who have spent their entire careers doing the rounds of available institutions, and as they go, screwing up the economy or ruining formerly democratic institutions in their insatiable greed for cash, honours, power and influence, and whose legacy has left a long wake of disastrous consequences for those whom they have absolutely no regard, chiefly the naive and gullible electorate that is unwilling to take a properly sceptical view of their motives.

    And this is not helped by a press and broadcast media who parade these ghastly spivs onto their pages and studios, inviting their views, while ignoring those whose antennae are more critical and discerning, such as Craig’s or indeed anyone else who bothers to intelligently examine what is really going on. The result is a farcical and kafka-esque obsequious pandering to those very people who are actually destroying the very institutions they claim to be concerned about, and the principle sycophant in this regard is the BBC, whose news broadcasts on financial matters reaches a level of complicity, complacency, ignorance and sheer naivity that is breathtaking to behold.

  98. Komodo, the Mail is no longer taking messages on Fox’s claim that the Russians are going to use the Olympics as a cover to ‘import’ unsavoury characters. There can be none so unsavoury as those already here, who Fox is probably already acquainted with, but then they are super-rich: Berezovsky, Abramovich et al.

    Was Werritty there with him at Hammersmith and Fulham Conservative Party? Probably waiting in the car. How can anyone entertain such a nasty little man who is trying to take us into another war? Pass me the sick bucket!

  99. @ Leonard,
    Holy smoke my good man! That’s an even better post than Fisk’s!

  100. Rehmat, Mark_Golding, Komodo. Ron Paul, although a Tea-Party Republican, has consistently talked about how damaging US wars are to its economy. That he claims Bush was happy after 9/11 is no surprise. Everybody saw Bush use it as an excuse for invading Iraq, followed by other countries. There are many conspiracy theories about what happened with 9/11. I started watching this documentary about Dr Judy Cook’s analysis of what happened to the twin towers yesterday – and although the programme is 1 hour 40 minutes long watched it to the end. There were details in the documentary of which I was unaware. She has been threatened. But she took out proceedings against the government version of what happened to the twin towers and other buildings. But the Supreme Court would not hear the case. Who knew about the scorched cars not in the actual ground zero area? Who knew there was a hurricane off New York on that day. Whatever conclusion you reach if you watch this documentary it is unlikely to be the same as before you watched it.

  101. Also, that is a very poor quality nine-etc info link, and this is definitely not the time to get into.

    My apologies and thanks to the great readers and the amazing man.

  102. “She did not make any charges or defense to any past argument, only that she had been ‘flamed’.”
    Mary had already posted on 8 Dec, 2011 at 10:35 pm here:
    where she had her say about ‘the troll’ and ‘smears’. There was no need to bring it up again now, and anyway, she was not the only one who was “flamed”. The ‘group mauling’ that went on initially when Ken appeared here was reminiscent of the treatment I’ve received on Tea Party blogs, and I would hate to see that standard applied here.
    Komodo might be better engaged in using his ever-ready tongue to sniff out the ‘sockpuppets’ he hasn’t recognised yet, than pronouncing on who is a troll or who should be banned. I’d leave all that to Craig and/or Jon.
    I might add that there is a tendency on blogs for certain “long timers” to begin to think they own the comment section. They don’t. The only one who owns anything here is Craig Murray.
    Au revoir

  103. She posted that 2 days ago Nuid. You are blowing on too.

  104. John Goss – I’m not a believer in that everything which is against ‘official story’ (even Bible), is a ‘conspiracy theory’. However, I do believe in some ‘miracles’ – such as how a stranger saved the lives of NINE Jews on 9/11.

  105. Rehmat, your post is different from the interview with Dr Judy Cook, which relates to nothing but evidence and little in way of speculation about how the evidence came about. 4000 Jews never stayed away from work at the World Trade Centre, 130 Jews were killed in the attack, together with Christians, Muslims, other faiths, and people without faith.
    Dr Cook makes no conspiratorial theory as to who was behind the 9/11 attacks, just that great slabs of concrete disintegrated into dust, thousand of tons of steel girders vanished into thin air. Any conspiracy would evolve from speculation as to which power had the capability to do such a thing. She avoided that.

  106. Off topic. These phenomenal figures are on the National Debt.

    USA – Foreign debt $14 trillion (trillion = 1,000,000,000,000) and rising. They get away with it because they are armed to the teeth.
    The UK – Qw have our very stable sensible government with an impeccable financial services ‘industry’. You know, they make ‘products’ like HSBC selling of long term care insurance to poor old dears well past their likely longevity.
    Net debt including bailouts was £2266.3 billion (148.0 % of GDP) That is worse than Spain and Greece.
    Now when did we hear Peston and Landale telling us this?
    We are captive to terrible liars. We need to riot.

    The US debt is $14 trillion. 1 trillion = 1,000,000,000,000 They get away with it because they are armed to the teeth.

  107. Rob Roytston

    10 Dec, 2011 - 9:09 pm

    @ John Goss,

    The heroines name is Dr Judy Wood, not Cook. I’ve been reading her theories for some time and she is the only person who seems to have a joined up explanation of what actually happened, but even she cannot fully understand it all. I just struggle to believe that such power and technology could be kept secret for so long.

  108. David Beetham examines the growing dominance of unaccountable corporate and financial interests




    The dominance of private interests at the very heart of government, of which Rupert Murdoch has been only one example, seriously challenges the idea that we live under anything resembling democratic rule. Instead of the public sphere constituting an independent domain, with its distinctive values, relationships and ways of operating, it has become an extension of the private market, permeated by the market’s logic and interests.
    Instead of popular control we have subordination to interconnected groups of the wealthy and economically powerful. Instead of everyone counting for one, we have the easy purchase of political influence and the well-oiled revolving door between government and the corporate sector. In sum, we have more an unelected oligarchy than a true democracy.

  109. Rob Royston, thanks for the correction. It’s one of the problems when you’re getting older, if you rely too much on memory it will find you out. I have to check a lot more now in the short-term range. Still I got her first name right! Her observations make a lot of sense to me too. Of all the commentators on 9/11 she has been more convincing than any. Also she is a very brave woman. The judge who asked her if she had a death wish did so clandestinely, but I believe her account. Somebody, some of the powers that be, are covering something up.

  110. Leonard,
    Good comment – Thank-you.
    Maybe a valuable mission in life consists not in having great power and possessions, but in having few wants.
    Those who spend their entire life with an insatiable greed for cash, honours, power and influence really do end up with having miscarried on what life really has to offer.
    Tell that to a banker or politician and you will notice the lights are on however nobody is at home.

  111. oops.

    I think it is wanting for others Mark, the more you do that the less pointless and solitary life is. But wanting only for your closest, is only a little better than being entirely self involved.

    Lots of modern jobtypes -involving finance, trade, disproportionate care and neglect, oppose our finest instincts.

  112. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements]

  113. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements]

  114. John Goss,
    Highly secret as a weapon however reduction of the binding force holding the metal atoms together causes it to ‘jellify’ – experiments have shown this.

  115. In the past Israel was able to kill, torture and rape as many Arabs as they like free from the fear that anyone would say a word against them. Knowing for a fact that they would be able to stop all criticism by simple shouting it down with one word.
    Just one word, ‘anti-Semitism!’

    No Israel can freely spy on this country and openly manipulate the parliament, to use to use the British Army to fight its proxie wars.
    Knowing that if this fact is ever mentioned, all they need to do, is shout Anti Semitism.

  116. It isn’t just the British Army that is used to fight Israel’s wars.
    The British economy is also used to prop up Israel’s.
    That needs to be mentioned.
    Even though mentioning it will be shouted down by the word ‘Anti Semitism’!

  117. Mark
    I was saying some such thing to a customer in the back of the limo I used to drive a few years ago, adding that God would not accept the persecution of Islam without delivering a bit of punishment and that great wealth usually resulted in dysfunctional family life. He was a corporate director for a global construction company. Sometimes one can go too far, and get sacked for one’s pains. So following from that:
    If you get shot down for speaking your truth, you would be better changing the company you keep to people who agree with you. My bits of Jewish DNA, do not stop me from commenting on any behaviour I find gives me a problem, from any race or religion including Islam.
    An estate agent with wonky eyes told me my house wouldn’t sell because the outside wall was leaning out about 15 degrees. It was actually my neighbour’s retaining wall that was leaning in, not mine. I wanted to ask him which eye he was looking with, but politeness got the better of me. You can’t always be telling people that they are prejudiced against Islam, but many are, even in my own family. Nil bastardibus carborundum est.

  118. Fucking hell, more arguments about trolls on the blog, just what the site needs. It seems to be a variant of Godwin’s law, any on-line political discussion that isn’t a circle jerk, will inevitably result in cries of ‘troll’. I tell ya what, calling people trolls (whether they are or aren’t), never improves the discussion, it only makes it worse.
    Personally I think only the mods and Craig should be allowed to label others as trolls. Unless Craig or the mods are certain/willing to do this, everyone else should shut the fuck up. If someone else calls another user a troll, they should be banned for 1-3 days. Yeah I know it won’t happen, but I can dream.

  119. CheebaCow, I 100% agree with you, it seems we have more comments about trolls, than anything else. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion, the site does not ban the pro-Israels or Zionist or anyone else. We can respond to any comment in an adult way. We can agree to disagree but insulting others and name calling is childish and like you I wish there would be a penalty for it. Believe me there are times when all I want to do type few insults at someone whether it is this blog or elsewhere, but instead I just leave the site/computer alone for a little while and cool down!

  120. Mark_Golding, the twisted metals and experiments by the Canadian, Hutchinson would support what you say about ‘jellyfying’ but assume the ‘microwaving’, it’s about the best I can do to get my head round this, was increased to an intensity that ordinary scientists cannot yet produce? Could that not cause the girders to turn to dust?

  121. George Galloway!

    Don’t Attack Iran – Monday the 5th of December

  122. James Dickins

    11 Dec, 2011 - 12:09 pm

    US Republican Presidential candidate Newt Gingrich has just made the clearest statement yet by any US politician in support of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians:

    However, no mainstream British politician seems prepared to speak out against what is now a clear agenda for ethnic cleansing.

    In 2007, Ahmedinejad said: “Imam [Khomeini] said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time” (“Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from)”). There was massive condemnation from Western politicians, all of whom used the mistranslation “Israel must be wiped off the map”. Iran is a fairly weak state, riven by conflicts at centre of government, and poses no threat to Israel (despite the barrage of propaganda claiming it does).

    When a leading US politician – who may by 2012 be American President – makes remarks supporting the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, no Western politician says anything, despite the fact that the process of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from most of the West Bank is already well underway

  123. James Dickins: what did you expect when 80% of Conservative MPs have been purchased by Israel least on this instance the dogs are not biting he hand which feeds them!

    But regarding Iran being a weak state, depends what you mean, from military point Iran is very powerful, if you research the subject you will find out that Iran is well capable of defending itself as well as delivery blows to the attackers, but the government is weak as it is a government within a government!

  124. If Newt Gingrich is declaring Palestininas as cannon fodder for IDF guns, then Obama has risen to the new hight of global ex/determinator general. His utterance in Australia, not just for their fascist Government, but also for those Zionists he would like to vote for him again, at home.
    China and Asia isd next on his list of ‘evil countries’, all it needs is a false flag attack in Tokyo, or Shanghai, that would be enough to carry on this elf perpetuating show.

    It seems that war is now an established economic regulator, maybe it should be listed on the NYSE.

    Cheebacow, what should you call trolls instead? How would you deal with someone who uses your name to post their rubbish?

  125. Azra..[what did you expect when 80% of Conservative MPs have been purchased by Israel Lobby]

    You also have many MP’s from other parties who are in the pocket of the Israel lobby not just the Conservatives, which is even sadder.

  126. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements]

  127. James Dickins :
    Seems that Newt Gingrich was clutching at the last straws! his campaign is well and truly over!

    Ken: you are absolutely right, all 3 main parties are on the payroll of Israel..we should revolt!! change the party funding system (fat chance!)

  128. Azra..[we should revolt!! ]

    We should,as it is clear that the people who re supposed to represent us do not. I am all for a revolution.

  129. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements]
    Newt Gingrich should realise that he’s merely an interloper, a usurping foreigner in, what he calls, his country, before he opens his trap.
    There have never been white Caucasians living in North America until Leif Erikson took it upon himself to discover the continent. Since then the rape, pillage, murder and, of late, alcohol, has left the indigenous population ravaged and without much hope in their own country.

  130. [Mod/jon – removing discussion about past disagreements]

  131. Ingo: Yeah it’s tricky to deal with trolls. But in my many years wasting time on the net, I have never seen the label ‘troll’ stop anyone from trolling. If anything it encourages them because they can see people reacting to them. It also just leads to an argument about whether the person is a troll or not, in no way does it advance an interesting argument. The solutions to dedicated trolling that I have seen that work are:
    1 – Ignore them, but it usually fails because someone always takes the bait.
    2 – Slashdot style user voted moderation system.
    3 – Mods start banning.
    4 – Enforced courtesy, because it stops the worst of the trolling and the worst of the reactions to trolling.
    However personally, I see the term thrown around here so often it has become largely meaningless. Sure there are trolls here, but just as often it is simply people who don’t see eye to eye and can’t imagine that people could possibly reach a different conclusion to themselves.

  132. Azra,
    When in the West we are faced with multi-polarity of a government, ie a coalition government, or a government “elected” through proportional representation, then everyone lauds these as the ultimate expression of democracy, and the existence of checks an balances. In Iran it is a sign of “weak” government, or “government with a government”.
    Iran’s lot is to get denounced regardless of he actualities. Whilst we are debating the “selected” representatives, whom are based on a mysterious rites of passage are first tapped and then shoved into parliament, with clear instructions as to whom and what they should support, it is “democracy”, however when the same process although more transparently is carried out in Iran, well that is just the way dictators do things then in’it?

  133. I don’t like the term troll either, Cheebacow, still leaves oneself open to pisstakers though, thanks for your answer.

  134. Fedup, I agree with your sentiments regarding democracy, but unfortunately in Iran main power is not elected. The Assembly of experts are 5 so called religious leaders who yield more influence than the elected government, and that is one of the biggest challenges in Iran, there is split loyalties, which does not do us any good. I totally believe and from what I have heard from many, that the actual government has lot of support, but it is the big mullah (Khamenei), who is not willing to stay out of politics.
    “Iran’s lot is to get denounced regardless of the actualities”, you are absolutely right there, everything gets twisted in the media here, they report what they have been told to report otherwise there would be more of the “occupy movement” in the press, their numbers in USA is greater than the number people who were in Red Square, and they have been battered, sprayed at, yet our media is deaf and dumb.

  135. Crab at 1.46am – Since there is no recommend button round yer – just to say how much I loved your comment. A crustacean after my own heart.

  136. Thanks Rose, I was in two minds about expressing that so i really appreciate you like : )

  137. James Dickins: US Republican Presidential candidate Newt Gingrich has just made the clearest statement yet by any US politician in support of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians:
    Did you actually watch that video clip? It was hardly a blood-curdling appeal for ethnic cleansing. Rather he was just saying that it was only comparatively recently that the Arab population living in the area known as Palestine started to identify themselves as “Palestinians” rather than as “Arabs”. I don’t know if the claim is correct, although I have read recently that it wasn’t until the twentieth century that the first document written by someone identifying themself as a Palestinian appears.
    The claim made by Gingrich is one that can be backed up or falsified by looking at the historical record.
    That said, did you also get into a tizzy like this when Shlomo Sand produced his book, the Invention of the Jewish People? I think he appeared at the Frontline Club to promote his thesis hosted by the LRB.
    Azra: Seems that Newt Gingrich was clutching at the last straws! his campaign is well and truly over!
    Azra, that’s an old news story. His campaign did indeed seem dead and buried about six months ago, but he’s soaring in the polls now, unfortunately:

  138. ‘It was hardly a blood-curdling appeal for ethnic cleansing.’

    Just a blood chilling snipe on a violently occupied peoples’ historical right to their own name.

  139. Angrysoba:
    It seems like a very weak argument to me. For one it is just a slight variation on the position put forth by Joan Peters in ‘From Time Immemorial’, a book that any serious scholar accepts is utter trash.
    Secondly, it wasn’t until recently that anyone would identify as an Australian aboriginal. That doesn’t mean what the British did do Australia’s indigenous population is ok. Land was still stolen, people still killed. It’s just using semantics to minimise a terrible crime.

  140. Crab: Just a blood chilling snipe on a violently occupied peoples’ historical right to their own name.

    It doesn’t affect their right to their name at all.
    Cheebacow: It seems like a very weak argument to me. For one it is just a slight variation on the position put forth by Joan Peters in ‘From Time Immemorial’, a book that any serious scholar accepts is utter trash.

    I’m not sure what “argument” you are talking about and I’ve never read that book. If you are talking about my reference to the historical use of the term then I don’t see why that should be controversial. Of course, I suppose EVERYTHING Israel/Palestine-related is controversial, as we know. The Guardian suggests that the term came into use in 1834 during a revolt against the Ottomans and also says that historians generally agree on that. Even if this were true, it wouldn’t make the term any less “invented” would it? Looking into this, I discovered that I am in agreement with Rashid Khalidi who has written a book on the subject:
    By the way, I don’t mean by saying that a national identity is invented then that makes it any less real. It wouldn’t mean that the Palestinians have no right to statehood.
    I am in favour of a two state solution. Now, whether Newt Gingrich believes in this and whether he is in favour of a Palestinian state is something I don’t know and something that he probably should be questioned about.

  141. Oh, well, here in the GOP debates Gingrich really has jumped the shark as he says that Palestinian wasn’t a term until 1977 !!!

  142. Angry:
    The argument I was referring to was that because Palestinians are a ‘recent’ creation, it minimises their claims to the occupied territories and also the damage done to them when Israel was formed.
    “Even if this were true, it wouldn’t make the term any less “invented” would it?”
    No it wouldn’t, but then all national identities are equally ‘invented’. All states, especially powerful states, take great care to foster a national conciousness. Humans don’t naturally form national identities, they naturally form much more localised identities, it is only through the creation of state structures and the weakening of local structures that a national identity can be formed. England is no less invented than Israel or Palestine.
    “Now, whether Newt Gingrich believes in this and whether he is in favour of a Palestinian state is something I don’t know and something that he probably should be questioned about.”
    Whatever he really believes, I think his comments on the Palestinians were a pretty obvious example of dog-whistle politics. Even if Gingrich doesn’t believe what he said, the comments are still very damaging to the efforts to end the Israeli occupation.

  143. When embarrassing friends attack…
    “It’s not good for Israel to be a partisan issue,” says Mr. Rosner. “When something becomes a partisan issue then you cannot get the kind of votes that Israel is getting in Congress, where 300 Congressmen vote for Israel. If Israel wants to remain a powerful, agreed-upon asset for the US, something that is not debated, it cannot be satisfied with a situation in which the mentioning of Israel is a partisan issue in every election cycle.”

  144. Cheeba Cow, I agree with you completely on all counts especially the “dog-whistle” politics part. I agree that when anyone talks of an “invented” people there is usually an underlying meaning there. Anyway, at that Republican debate almost all of them were trying to outdo their opponents on how many times they can say “Our ally Israel”, “Shoulder to shoulder with Israel” and “Bibi”.

    P.S It’s amusing, in a way, that Michelle Bachmann’s big experience in Israel was living on a kibbutz considering that kibbutzim are generally organized on the farthest left system of economic organization there is.

  145. Just for interest, Angry, I note you support the idea of a two-state solution. Where would you like to see the Palestinians located?

  146. Komodo: Just for interest, Angry, I note you support the idea of a two-state solution. Where would you like to see the Palestinians located?

    Broadly speaking, where most self-identifying Palestinians currently live (except for those who live abroad), that is to say, the West Bank, Gaza and probably other areas. But I can only say “broadly” because there is no consensus on where those lands are. Generally speaking I don’t think of myself as someone who dictates where people live but I assume your question refers to where a Palestinian state should be.
    And yourself?

  147. Thanks, Angry. Must say I’ve rather despaired of the idea of a two-state solution as the West Bank has become increasingly (and strategically) fragmented. The single-state idea would require impossible restraint from both sides, and a genuine commitment to fully franchising the Palestinians. So, I don’t know. Relieved to see you don’t think the poor bastards would have to go to Jordan, though.

  148. *enfranchising*, of course.

  149. No, I don’t think the Palestinians should have to go to Jordan. Nor do I think the Jews should “get the Hell out of Palestine” and “go home” to Poland, Germany or where-ever.
    It’s a clusterfuck and I defy anyone to give a simple answer to the problem. In the meantime, I also oppose the Likud Platform, the Hamas Charter and the Proclamation of the Republic of Rainbows and Unicorns (i.e the binational state in which everyone lives happily together).

  150. I defy anyone to give a simple answer to the problem.
    End zionism, This supremacist ideology is at the root of all evil.

  151. Zionism is certainly a major factor in relation to the Middle East. And people like Miko Peled and others argue that Zionism is indeed the nub of the Palestine/Israel problem and the major barrier to a just, peaceful solution. But it’s not “the root of all evil”. That takes it into the realms of the theological nd numinous, sort of horror film, ‘Omen’-style. Unless, of course, you project backwards across time and outwards across space and lump all the bad things empires and others do/have done/will do in one bucket and stick a label on the side saying, ‘Zionism’. Which is exactly what the Islamist Supremacists tend to do. And then the Zionist Supremacists say the same thing about the Islamist Supremacists/ about Islam. And so, we have Monthy Python-with-real-blood. It is an evasion of analytical process. Zionism is a political/religious ideology with its origins and its effects and it ought to be suject to rational critique just like any other political ideology. To inflate it to the ludicruous serves no useful purpose. One might as well say, ‘tribalism’ is the root of all evil, or ‘greed’ – and one might be closer to the truth.

  152. @all – please try to avoid lengthy discussion regarding past disagreements. Rule #1 – if you want to say something inflammatory, have a cup of tea first. Suhayl will be pleased to put the kettle on – he makes a fine brew!
    @ken – as you know you’re welcome here, but as a mod I am finding your approach a touch aggressive for a new poster. Mary thinks she got a roasting, but I didn’t sense that was a dig at you (10 Dec, 2011 – 2:56 pm). You are of course free to disagree politely, but sometimes it is best not to “sweat the small stuff” and stick to the primary topic.

  153. Suhayl Saadi,
    How can anyone in the name of sanity Justify any kind of supremacist ideology? The almost inane propositions forwarded regardless of the grandiloquence deployed are an attempt in tenuous logic.
    The very basis of any supremacist doctrine is rooted in conflict and violence, hence to start putting a positive spin on such beastly bunkum is akin to attempts in searching for the inner goodness of Caligula.
    Finally, the use of Islamist Supremacists in the context of the Palestinians is a low punch trick and smacks of rationalisation of the unjustifiable violence of the Jewish Supremacists upon that beleaguered nation.
    The attempts in obfuscation and conflation, are only to afford time for the zombie ideology of Jewish Supremacy, for reasons of further transference/plunder of the lands, and natural resources of the Palestinians.
    The simple fact is ending the zionist ideology, would also end the conflict pretty darn quickly.

  154. @Jon..[– as you know you’re welcome here, but as a mod I am finding your approach a touch aggressive for a new poster.]

    I find your touch as a Mod one sided. This is the 2nd or 3rd time you have now singled me out whilst ignoring others. You as a mod are supposed to be impartial,you obviously are not.You dropped down on Mary’s side first off and now you have yet again singled me out when all I have been doing is defending myself from a torrent of insults. I got no respect for you as a mod,you are in their camp.

  155. “It’s a clusterfuck and I defy anyone to give a simple answer to the problem.”

    I dont think the answers are uniquely complex or unknown. There are many ways to fail and many to succeed. The science is Conflict Resolution. Announce peace, accept some of your guilt and state a new intent. Stop attacking, denigrating and repressing your historical foe, make as many reparations to those you harmed as you can, and endure whatever conflict remains.

  156. Saudi woman executed for practising sorcery.

    Saudi authorities have executed a woman convicted of practising magic and sorcery.

    The Saudi interior ministry said in a statement that the execution had taken place on Monday, but gave no details of the woman’s crime.

    The London-based al-Hayat daily, however, quoted Abdullah al-Mohsen, the chief of the religious police who arrested the woman, as saying she had tricked people into thinking she could treat illnesses, charging them $800 a session.

    Executing an old woman for what is basically fraud, you know that if this happened in Iran it would be front page news but it happened in Saudi and is thus relegated to the minor news. Disgraceful.

  157. @all – I’ve edited out some of the troll discussions as off-topic. Carry on with Gould/Werrity/Neocons/Israel/etc :-)
    @Suhayl – totally agree. `Zionism is the root of all evil` is an oversimplification – it is an offshoot of neo-conservatism and one of many different flavours of imperialism. Religion is involved, but there is a danger that even agnostics will paint this as a “religious war”. It is not, and should not be recognised as such – it is about money and power, same as it ever was.

  158. @crab, yes – conflict resolution with a strong and genuinely neutral third party. But the US would never accept that path – they see themselves in that role and, possibly, struggle to see their own bias towards the Israeli side. I think the conflict would come to an end quite quickly if there was an arbitrator who could wield some power.
    I suspect though that it would need to reduce US aid to Israel, and of course only the US has the power to do that. As @angry suggested on another thread, even Obama couldn’t do that unilaterally, and I don’t suspect he would even consider it.

  159. A very interesting article Iran, the revolution and the language of War in FPJ, worth reading.

  160. wtf – The Saudi’s have just executed a ‘witch’ ?!
    And they probably drowned a confession out of her too!

  161. Jon, Crab, wrt Palestine-Israel – absolutely.
    Passerby, not everybody – grandiloquent or delinquent – who attempts to expound on nuances of points you might make is necessarily a feral agent of Zionism. I am simply a wayfaring stranger. But the kettle is on! Do have a cuppa cha’…
    Saudi Arabia is emblematic of the maxim that truth is always stranger than fiction. Since around 1979, when it took a sharp turn towards the Fields of Nonsense, it has seemed like a country governed by the Id.

  162. Just seen a nice report on Channel 4 news about protests in Saudi,makes a change. The Shia are on the rise there,some protesters have been killed already. The Saudis are bringing in new terrorism laws which will basically give them the right to lock people up without trial/evidence etc and a statement from the Saudi embassy in London claims that they respect human rights,well tell it to that old woman you have just executed for fraud.Anyway nice to see the MSM reporting on Saudi.

  163. Jon, Suhayl Saadi,

    Neocons are a by-product of zionism (the corrosive fuckwitry that keeps on spawning more evil), and although zionism is a product of Imperialists, and colonialists. However this abhorrent and evil doctrine that is heavily influenced by the south African apartheid, due to the close friendship between the founders of both these supremacist ideologies (Apartheid and zionism), which conveniently use religion as a vehicle to sew hatred and discord, validating the cock and bull doctrines of separation and segregation of races. This facet was also true of the “National Socialist” notions that Hitler later came to espouse.
    Therefore to find any nuanced approach to the same bankrupt ideologies are at best aiding and abetting the racist scum bags, and at worst defending the lunatic evildoers bent on destruction of their perceived underclass, as reflected in all three supremacist notions; Kaffir for apartheid, Jude for National Socialists, and Palestinian for zionists.
    The fact that as yet we are debating as to whether zionism ought to be thrown onto the rubbish heap, is attesting to the degrees of distortion that our historical narratives have gone through to make racial segregation acceptable, although with the best of intentions and in the spirit of positive racial discrimination. Now how fuckedup is that?
    Notwithstanding the above, the trends are telling that no supremacist contention can withstand any close scrutiny, therefore the need of supremacists for a new and invented nomenclature, that in effect promotes this evil as an imperative due to sensitivities that are rooted in some other event. Kaffirs were black because they were the descendants of Cain, hence their black appearance. Arab nations as lying, thieving, barbarous, blood thirsty, suicide bombers, who push their children into the line of zionist soldiers fire, and under the tracks of their tanks. Forming the points of reference for zionists description of the Arabs, and by extension the “sub human” Palestinians.
    The current “conflict” is but a one sided conflict of Jewish supremacists, with the indigenous Palestinians, and the only solution to be found is ending the madness of supremacy, alas that is a far fetched probability given the current crazy dynamics, with regards to acceptability of the injustices, and inequity so prevalent in the mideast, due to the pressures on making acceptable the crazy notions of zionism, as a political philosophy.

  164. Jon: I suspect though that it would need to reduce US aid to Israel, and of course only the US has the power to do that. As @angry suggested on another thread, even Obama couldn’t do that unilaterally, and I don’t suspect he would even consider it.
    I think I was previously talking of other policies that Obama said he would implement which he hasn’t done so far and I was pointing out that he doesn’t get to rule by decree as he has to go through a hostile Congress and sometimes even convince his own hostile party, which is just bizarre.
    As for aid to Israel, the reason why he won’t consider it, at the moment is because the aid to Israel and to Egypt is part of the conditions of the cold peace between those two countries. The aid was, IIRC, given on the basis that Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt and also other conditions of the Camp David Accords. Cutting aid would effectively be signalling that the Camp David Accords are finished, so you can see why that’s a bit of a non-starter.

  165. But the Camp David Accords were a failure at the outset:

  166. If Iran is attacked, Shia’s in Saudi and Bahrain, dare I say everywhere, will go on the rampage, even Iraq might re ignite in another tit for tat period of religious animosities, a very unholy brew which could easily set the whole middle east alight.

  167. @angry, thanks – I didn’t know that about Camp David. I do wonder though whether reducing financial support for the Israeli state would be worth the risk – the Israelis appear to be holding the US by the balls, and an adjustment of that attitude could be forced by the US. Cutting military aid to Israel, plus reducing levels of automatic diplomatic support, might reduce Israel’s belligerence.
    Would “signalling the end of the Camp David Accords” make Israel automatically more hostile, do you think? My view is that they only breach international law so brazenly because they believe they can get away with it. But, I suppose that would require the US to support the concept of the ICC!

  168. All right thinking citizens will believe that a British Jew can serve as ambassador to Israel as anywhere else. By the same token the Jewish community should allow for legitimate questions in this particular case and with the same assumptions of integrity. Do as you would be done by.

  169. Komodo: But the Camp David Accords were a failure at the outset:

    That article refers to something completely different.
    The Camp David Accords:

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