The law is not blind in this country – “joint enterprise” is used almost exclusively against young black men. But I can see no reason why the principle of joint enterpirse should not apply equally to those who set the policy under which people were rendered to be tortured in Libya, rather than merely to the security service functionaries who carried out the policy. In my reading of joint enterprise, if Ministers can show they were not involved in signing off individual rendition permissions, they should still be guilty for having participated in the behaviour that made such results likely, indeed inevitable.
I have given evidence to parliament that I was told, officially, as a British Ambassador, that Jack Straw had initiated a policy of using intelligence obtained by torture. I also testified before parliament that this was an unacknowledged policy which I was told, officially, should not be discussed in writing. The government has at no stage attempted to deny the truth of my account. The government did not submit evidence to the Parliamentary committee to claim that my account was untrue. The government has nowhere stated that my evidence is untrue; they prefer to rely on private media briefings to claim, untruly, that I am mad and alcoholic.
I shall tell the police that those involved in rendering persons to be Libya to be tortured were doing so in keeping with a War on Terror torture intelligence programme authorised by Jack Straw. It is no secret what I will say; here I am saying it.
Of course, I realise that the Crown Prosecution Service and the Met will,three years hence, claim there were no grounds to prosecute anybody. I am not that naive. But the fact of a formal police investigation will force some attention on whether or not my account is true. Ignoring the facts and just being rude about me is less easy in a criminal investigation.
Like other posters I can’t see the point of torture. If the intent is merely to generate false evidence for a pre-determined course of action then surely bribery is a cheaper and more reliable method – note the substantial amount paid to Tony Gauci in order to win his testimony against Megrahi in the Lockerbie case. In certain circumstances I can see that torture might be used not to elicit information but to cow a community, such as in German occupied France. However this requires that there is such a community and people within it who can identify some behaviours and opinions which are dangerous. US/UK use of torture doesn’t fit with this – the victims as individuals seem random. I can only understand it as a deliberate strategy to offend and outrage the Muslim world.
@vronsky
There is one explanation. Muslims are the vanguard. Later, the same international extralegal installations can be used to process a wider range of clients.
Capacity-building. Diversification. A cure for all forms of dissent.
Redux. Extraordinary rendition. Build it and they will come.
Lysias said, “what was the purpose of the torture?” –
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We always portray a ‘window’ that reveals and indeed focuses on the wickedness, barbarity and nefariousness of physical torture.
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In reality this is only ‘stage one’ of the ‘softening-up’ process, making the tortured receptive to ‘suggestion.’ – ‘Part two’ is the ‘clean stage’ or ‘gentleman’ stage when for instance a British security agent(s) complete the compliance by quietly threatening the detainee or ‘illegal combatants’ with threats to murder/torture their families.
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Camp Delta has provided this evidence from those released ‘without charge’ – and now willing to talk knowing their families are safe.
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Here we witness the ‘gentleman’ stage with Omar Khadr, a child who repeatedly cried for his mother.
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An unclassified army manual called ‘Human Intelligence Collector Operations’ appears to legitimise the process in Chapter eight, Interrogation Techniques; we must however appreciate that the HUMINT collection strategy does NOT apply to the thugs in the British Secret Service ‘Kidon philosophy’ assassin group.
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Best remember under the Intelligence Services Act of 1994, MI6 officers have immunity from prosecution for crimes committed outside Great Britain.
The process of torture can even be started by a mere email.
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An email strangely routed through Pakistan to obfuscate the origin was sent to me warning that failure to reply would result in my execution if I left the house after 8pm in the evening.
Mark, I recall that once a woman (distant relative) who had been tortured in Iran, was telling me that each time she was sent to back to her cell, she would think about what she should tell them next time and would think about it over and over again, and practice it , repeat it in her mind so she would not contradict herself . She said she told them made up stuff and repeated that to them so many times that they believed her. She was beaten and electrocuted many times, maybe not as much as a man would be tortured (cultural sensibilities!), all the same what she went through was beyond endurance. Proof that lot of so called “information” obtained under torture are not reliable, a person who is tortured will tell the torturer anything they want to hear. We have heard that over and over again, yet torture is becoming more wide spread rather than less. One would think they just want to have someone to blame, it does not matter whether that someone is the right person or not.
The Bush/Cheney gang re-opened the door to a debate on the ‘usefulness’ and morality of torture, a door which had been firmly closed. And for that alone I despise every last one of them.
@ Nuid,
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“The Bush/Cheney gang re-opened the door to a debate on the ‘usefulness’ and morality of torture, a door which had been firmly closed. And for that alone I despise every last one of them.”
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Completely agree.Well said.
Cowper Coles and Fox of the Standard (nasty warmonger) discuss Karzai’s visit.
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Afghan drawdown ‘will be hard to manage’
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President Hamid Karzai will be in London today meeting David Cameron as the ten year mission in Afghanistan is drawing to an end.
Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, former British ambassador to Afghanistan, told Today presenter John Humphrys that Mr Cameron’s agenda should put a “political roof” on the house the military have started to build so successfully.
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Robert Fox, defence correspondent of the Evening Standard, believed that the security map of Afghanistan is very difficult to understand in military terms as there are many local conflicts. It will be very hard to manage a “smooth draw down” and David Cameron will pledge training and support, but the UK will not be left “holding the baby” in Helmand, he added.
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Sir Sherard believed that the UK is in the “foothills” of a political process with a “mountain to climb”. There remains an “enormous” amount to do but all the building blocks are being put in place, he explained.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9688000/9688615.stm
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Good Imperial stuff. Cowper Coles spoke of Cameron wanting to set up a military academy in Afghan. They have not the brain or the heart to see that a medical, nursing or good law school for district judges would be welcomed and would help. Pure evil.
PS China is the new bogey man btw.
Ingo
‘Maybe you would like to start with the ecclastical ranks within Opus Dei and how they are kept inline to keep the faith, explain were it is said in the bible that painfull self castigation will bring bliss to your mind and get you on to the righteous path.’
The doctrine of spiritual growth through self-deprivation is not part of Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Sufism refers to the wearing of souf/wool, which many of our medieval kings did in order to chastise themselves for the power they exercised through brutality and fear. Did Jesus pbuh not chastise his listeners for mistreating the weak, on the basis that God’s mercy would fall on those who themselves showed mercy. The Jews of his day were busy getting into polytheism, magic, POWER, sacrificial cults etc and when they complained about being subjected to Roman brutality he told them to reform themselves.
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Human beings have a tendency to dispose of guilt by blaming others. The doctrine of hell-fire of the divine scriptures has always been mis-used to increase persecution, when it is used by political minds in a political way to achieve political ends.
in the Qur’an we are told that it will lead many astray, and guide many, but it does not lead astray anyone who is not already an oppressor/wrongdoer.
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If you want a magic wand, or eat a bit of special food, or anything else which is a quick-fix formula, without having to reach into your conscience of right and wrong, or think what God would likeus to do, I suggest you buy an electronic pipe detector to decide where to drill your boreholes.
I use my conscience + the divine scriptures + the advice of knowleable scholars, including the hadith of the prophet, peace be upon him. I will never follow anything that my heart does not confirm. What’s the point of torturing someone, and drawing eternal hell-fire on oneself, for the sake of a seat in Parliament and a few bungs to buy houses, holidays and cars?
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That’s what was so unreal about the JCHR hearing, to witness the UK pariamentarians actually believing that talking politely, and wearing respectable clothes, in the veneer of Parliamentary tradition, would somehow absolve them from the horrendous crime of condoning torture. You could almost see the flames emanating from their bodies and clothes. Please don’t mock hell-fire. It is very real and very near.
Ingo and Guano, you are at crossed-purposes. Ingo, Guano was Anno. In his 28 Jan, 12:31 pm comment he wrote “because it details the oppression of Zionism”, by which he meant oppression performed by Zionism, rather than oppression inflicted upon Zionism.
Excellent letter to Ashton from Annette Groth, German MEP.
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To
Mrs. Catherine Ashton
High Representative of the European
Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy
European Commission
Rue de la Loi 200
B-1049 Brussels
Annette Groth, MdB
Menschenrechtspolitische Sprecherin
Platz der Republik 1
11011 Berlin
Berlin, 26.11.2011
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Madam High Representative,
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I’m writing to you to express my concern with regard to the next meeting of the council of the EU-Israel Association Agreement, which will discuss and decide upon the unfreeze of the upgrading of the EU-Israeli relations, and in particular about putting the ACAA protocol again on INTA’s agenda.
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As spokesperson for human rights of the left party in the German parliament I have closely followed the human rights situation in Israel over the past years. It seems clear to me that, according to Article 2 of the Association Agreement, the upgrading has to remain frozen. In fact, because of the human rights record of the Israeli government and the deteriorating situation for human rights organizations in Israel, the EU should consider to suspend the agreement.
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As you are aware, the EU has firmly condemned Israel’s policy of illegal settlements, the continuous blockade of Gaza and house demolitions in East Jerusalem on several occasions. You have yourself written several press releases, in which you condemn human rights abuses, in particular with regard to the violation of the rights of Israeli and Palestinian human rights defenders.
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By unfreezing the upgrading, the EU would send wrong signals to both the Israeli government and the international human rights community: Unfreezing the upgrading would mean to reward the Israeli government for its human rights violations instead of holding it accountable by enforcing article 2 of the agreement. By granting such an explicit support despite numerous and internationally recognized Israeli violations of international law, the EU finds itself complicit in those violations.
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Instead, the EU should play a much more active role in promoting the protection of human rights in all her relations with third states.
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I therefore urge you to put an end to the context of impunity that Israel enjoys and to advocate for the suspension of the EU-Israel Association Agreement and Israeli participation in EU programs as long as Israel does not comply with International Law, International Human Rights Law and the Association Agreement itself (article 2 and art. 83).
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I look forward to your reply and remain
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With kind regards
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Annette Groth, MdB
Menschenrechtspolitische Sprecherin
Platz der Republik 1
11011 Berlin
Guano – a thoughtful post – the ‘magic’ was of course the alliance between Basemath and King Abijah. The ‘spell’ survives to this day.
Mary,
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I heard Ashton rebuffed Annette’s concern, although I cannot find a source. Meanwhile this from ynet:
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British Ambassador to the UN Mark Grant accused Israel of employing violence in the territories and called on the Jewish state to halt all settlement construction, including in east Jerusalem.
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Germany’s UN ambassador, Peter Wittig, said Israel was attempting to detach east Jerusalem from the West Bank, a move he claimed would make the establishment of a Palestinian state impossible.
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In his response to the criticism, Israeli Ambassador Ron Prosor told the Security Council, “The primary obstacle to peace is not settlements. The primary obstacle to peace is the so-called ‘claim (right) of return.’ Let me repeat that: the major hurdle to peace is the Palestinian’s insistence on the so-called ‘claim of return.'”
Just a small organisational request, to think about.
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Would it be possible to put links to latest comments on the right, as in http://www.moonofalabama.org/?
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Yours is a blog where people are likely to add comments to previous posts at a later date. Nobody is going to read them, if not signalled in some way.
@Azra – I watched the David Duke video, and most of his points are in themselves quite correct. I think his analysis of the ‘Zionist media’ is wrong though – the quality of US/UK media output is poor because it is corporate, not because there are cabals of editors all nodding obediently at AIPAC. I subscribe to Herman and Chomsky’s Propaganda theory, which I find to be much more satisfying as an explanation.
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But that all aside, I wouldn’t posit David Duke as a spokesperson on anything. He is right on the Iran question but he is a racist nutter who barely commands respect outside of the American far right. Surely there is a better authority we can turn to? Juan Cole, for instance?
Jon, that is the point, he is a far right nutter, yet even a far right nutter has realized that what a disaster it is to attack Iran. I mean you expect liberals and lefties not support the war, but you expect a far right one to agree otherwise. don’t you think?
I see what you mean, but although most Republicans have extreme perspectives by any fair-minded definition of centre, nevertheless I imagine Duke to be a step too far for them. I don’t think his having an anti-war view will have any effect on the “mainstream” American Right at all. Maybe some of the tea-partiers, perhaps.
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I’d say Ron Paul is probably economically at the same position as Duke, but Paul’s never been a Wizard of the KKK. Still probably a racist, mind you, but one that stands a better chance of being listened to.
Ref Juan Cole. Wonder what he says now about Libya as it descends into anarchy and chaos? His defence of NATO was unforgivable.
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Libya
Cole supported the NATO/American intervention in Libya in 2011, and criticized those on the left that did not support it.
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and
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Writing for CounterPunch, John Walsh and editor/commentator Alexander Cockburn described Cole as being an advisor to the CIA and Walsh referred to Cole as a “humanitarian hawk.”
David North, writing on the World Socialist Web Site has strongly criticized Cole’s defense of the US/NATO Libyan intervention, claiming an inconsistency between Cole’s 2006 opposition to the “wholesale destruction of all of Lebananon by Israel and the US Pentagon” as part of a broader strategy to acquire control of the major sources of oil and natural gas, and Cole’s 2011 statement that “I haven’t seen the war-for-oil argument made for Libya in a manner that makes any sense at all.”
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Cole
“Aid agency Medecins Sans Frontieres has halted its work in detention centres in a Libyan city because it said its medical staff were being asked to patch up detainees mid-way through torture sessions so they could go back for more abuse.”
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0126/libya.html
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Where is Kouchner to raise the hell about this?
Jon: “I’d say Ron Paul is probably economically at the same position as Duke, but Paul’s never been a Wizard of the KKK. Still probably a racist, mind you, but one that stands a better chance of being listened to.”
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I just can’t believe what you (and other people) are dealing with. There is no evidence of RP’s racism, there is evidence (not sure if it’s conclusive) of racism of some of his supporters from two decades ago. And it’s astonishing that people can discuss alleged racism of a candidate disfavoured by the media when the main issue is whether the USA is going to survive, in fact.
Not only death, destruction and mayhem but polio too. Brought to Afghanistan by the US and the ‘coalition of the willing’. Who was it who said ‘Suffer little children to come unto me’?
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A Deadly Comeback
Polio in Afghanistan
by CATHERINE WILKERSON, MD
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Polio forever seared two images in my mind. That may account for my reaction to the story in the January 17th New York Times, “After Years of Decline, Polio Cases in Afghanistan Triple in a Year”.
[…]
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Where armed conflict exists, the strategy to combat polio, buttressed by muddled analysis such as that in the NY and LA Times articles, consists of calls for “Days of Tranquility” and safe corridors so that public health workers, often risking their lives for a pittance in compensation, can carry out vaccination campaigns. Are brief ceasefires the best we can hope for in the struggle to stop this completely preventable, devastating disease?
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The tripling of polio cases in Afghanistan and its spread to many countries previously polio-free are the consequences of over 10 years of war waged by the US and its allies against Afghanistan, and of the undeclared US war against Pakistan. The stricken children will sear their images in our country’s legacy.
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Dr. CATHERINE WILKERSON, MD, is a primary care physician in Michigan.
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PS The author is known to me and others who joined a petition to prevent a pro Zionist group on the board of the public health clinic where she worked who were trying to deprive her of her job. The story is told in brief here {http://arborwiki.org/city/Catherine_Wilkerson}
@Mark Golding,
“Thanks Courtenay – Tom Secker is always good with the grog – Here’s ‘Crime and Prejudice’ in lieu of a fee”
I watched it. Sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.
The video is worth its weight in glod. No fee note this time.
Cheers.
Courtenay
Thank-you Mary, so upsetting, it has compelled me to look again at Iraq although the UNICEF immunisation program gave hope to a *near polio free (*wild poliovirus) population.
don’t understand y the link 2 that simplistic fascist apologist cole. y not link 2 rick santorum 2 craig?
I appreciated the link to David Duke. Looking at his recent work he appears not to be a right-wing nutter but someone who – having been a figure in the KKK as a young man – has now recanted that early period of his life but has never been allowed to forget because of constant media pressure. Whether such media pressure is because of zionist or corporation control (as with the ZBC) might be open to debate, but the head of every major news organisation in the USA, other than the delightful Mr Murdoch, is Jewish. Duke’s interview with Wolf Blitzer was revealing. Blitzer introduced Duke as the former head of the KKK.Duke responded that Blitzer was a former lobbyist for AIPAC but, of course, that has never gained any traction. After listening to him, more people should be linking to his erudite videos without fear, and ignoring the constant propaganda that he is a racist, right wing nutter. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM9WBS1q6k8
Only 400 of us were outside the US Embassy yesterday.
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=27366
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The PM we never had, John McDonnell said:
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“This is a dangerous situation. We must not allow them to get away with starting more wars of destruction across the globe. We stand in solidarity with the people struggling for justice in these countries.”
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A bit of a get out in the last sentence though.
What a scandal. I saw one of those wrongfully imprisoned for Lynette White’s murder speaking the other day. He said that the faith he pnce had in British justice has been destroyed. The police involved will not go to trial again unless the principle of double jeopardy is resorted to.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/29/call-for-inquiry-into-south-wales-police
In December, the case was halted against eight former detectives accused of fabricating evidence and perverting the course of justice in a trial for the 1988 murder of Lynette White. It was halted after prosecutor Nicholas Dean told the court: “Deliberate destruction of documents by the senior investigating officer appears to have occurred.” The case cost an estimated £30m and took almost 10 years to come to court. Then, last week, the Independent Police Complaints Commission announced that the documents had not been shredded. It demanded to know why the South Wales police had claimed they had been.
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The South Wales police has form. For the past decade, it has been trying to regain a reputation for integrity and fairness after a shockingly high number of miscarriages of justice occurred on its patch over the previous 20 years. These include the wrongful convictions of Jonathan Jones, Annette Hewins, the Darvell brothers, and the so-called Cardiff Three – Stephen Miller, Yusef Abdullahi and Tony Paris – for White’s death. Some of those who were wrongly imprisoned will never put their lives back together; others remain free who have committed murder.
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/…
“others remain free who have committed murder.”
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This is one of the very strong arguments against capital punishment (I’ve a feeling we might be needing them again). The ‘justice’ system is extremely reluctant to admit error where people have been wrongfully imprisoned- they are even less inclined where an innocent person has been executed, and so the real guilty party roams forever free, or at least free of that particular indictment.
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Who really did 7/7? Who really did the Lockerbie Bombing? Who really killed David Kelly? Who really did 9/11? Despite the numerous accused, imprisoned, abducted, executed, tortured and disappeared, the true perpetrators remain at large, and that’s frightening. On reflection, maybe it’s supposed to be.
Anyone remember this from Not the Nine O’Clock News?
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All out superpower confrontation
All out superpower confrontation
If I had a bomb and a ‘plane to drop it from
I’d drop it on you, world leaders
I’ve had it up to here with your verbal diarrhoea
You power crazy bleeders
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All out superpower confrontation
All out superpower confrontation
Wouldn’t give a toss if a bit of chaos went your way
Wouldn’t feel remorse if a little holocaust got you
Wouldn’t it be nice if a nuclear device
Had landed on you all, at Tito’s funeral, procession
Jimmy Carter must’ve known – that’s why he stayed at home
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(clapping on off-beat begins)
If, I, had a bomb and a ‘plane, to, drop it from
I’d drop it on you, world leaders
Drop it on you, world leaders
If, I, had a bomb and a ‘plane, to, drop it from
(there’d be an)
all out superpower confrontation
All out superpower confrontation
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(song ends with the sound and image of a nuclear explosion)