The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Ferret
The business name of frederique brun is in facr
Pollier Brun Frederique Josette
That did not exist in the files until recently. Her business was created in july 2012. Before that time, the business wss 100% Frederic Brun. With such a long name beginning with Pollier, a visual error is impossible.
It appears that Brun had sold his Ugine business to a family relative in july 2012.
It appears that he had moved from Ugine close to Chambery in 2012.
http://www.verif.com/societe/POLLIER-BRUN-FREDERIQUE-JOSETTE-752924191/
Brun himself created a new beauty business in a village near Chambery in March 2012.
His other address in 5 av Jules Bianco has disappeared, too.
When searching in september, all his businesses were still registered to his name. I had the impression that he had this second business near Chambery because of business success. However as we know today, he moved to Chambery in 2012, where his parents live. Perhaps he had moved because he became director of that best western hotel?
I dont understand why his brother Roland Brun who lives in Ugine, is not listed in the death notice. He was defined as the brother to press by the police or else by the mayor.
September the 25th ????
Why have they waited so long to tell us this ?
“A spokesman for Surrey Police said: “A 32-year-old man from the Greater Manchester area was arrested on September 25 in connection with an ongoing fraud investigation being carried out by Surrey Police.”
Well we shall hear more tomorrow, but I see a patsy here too !
Katie
155 notting hill gate did kadhims finances in spain and one of their business members, hussein alla muhammed, who is in charge of the malaga business of this company, even signed the death papers.
The link to those finances are within the two companies in 155 notting hill gate and in malaga. It would have been easy for saad to meet representatives in notting hill gate, london.
One African members name of the malaga branch already appears in a scam fraud.
There is a Josette Falcomata Pollier here in Annecy
http://www.trombi.com/Personnes/Annemasse/Marie-Noelle-Rigaud-P-CVCNG-P
See friends
Yes I knew that Alla Hussain signed the death certificate BB, but are you saying Kadhim had no control at all or spending money in Spain. ….. that was not agreed to in the UK ?
If so how dreadful & it explains why the sons didn’t rush overimmediately, tragic to think they were so callous.
@Bluebird
Thanks, that makes sense.
@Everyone
I heard that after the 7/7 atrocity someone stole the identity of one of the victims and gained access to their bank accounts.
This does not mean that the scammer is related to the murderer(s), it just means they saw the name in the papers and then did the dirty work.
These reports appearing are copied word for word. So this is another print this without alteration the ‘official line’ story.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/fraud-bid-on-alps-victim-account-16236770.html
But as Katie said he was arrested on 25 September and this has been kept secret until 3 hours ago. Bail hearing due tomorrow.
Perhaps the next article will be they arrested the murderer on September 7 and couldnt be arsed to tell anyone.
Ferret There may have been mention of SM as a metallutgiste but existing quotes are of “work/worker in the metallurgy industry” (only one report of un ouvrier métallurgiste) Daily Telegraph 4.11.12 “Impossible,” said one cousin, who refused to give his name. “Sylvain didn’t even have a degree. He was a welder, not a nuclear scientist. He wasn’t a mystery man; he’d not ever really travelled far from home.” The majority of reports concur.
As far as we know he wasn’t a hunter, he wasn’t anti-nuclear, he was an industrial worker, more likely a Communist supporter than S&P/Larouche.
What if….. Sylvain Mollier came upon a scene where person(s) unknown is bullying /threatening a small defenceless Arab man. Could he have attempted to intervene? A stuggle ensues in which he is overcome.
Sylvain Mollier would then be an incidental victim. This still leaves the reason for a rendez vous between Saad al Hilli and A N Other at Martinet. Wasn’t it said that he had been to the region a number of times before? Questions remain about the role of W B Martin and his links, plus the house at the start of the road also occupied by Brits, an “incredible coincidence”. Was this rendez vous under surveillance?
ITV news
arrested on suspicion of attempting to access the bank accounts of an engineer murdered in the French Alps….in connection with an ongoing fraud investigation being carried out by Surrey Police.
er fraud investigation????
http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2012-11-12/salford-man-arrested-on-suspicion-of-hacking-alps-victims-bank-accounts/
I thought it was a murder investigation? Perhaps the Nigerian man was just “thinking about attempting” to access the bank accounts.
What an irrelevance.
His name is used in nigerian scamming. I dont say that it was him, but his email got used along with his name. He is from Nigeria and a guy with his name writes in nigerian blogs regarding mosques.
http://www.microscopy.com/cgi-bin/ReadPrintEmailHTML.pl?filename=0308.txt
Serach the above website for “abiod” to find his entry.
Felix
Perhaps they investigated another scam fraud (see my link) and while doing that they came along this guy and found about whatelse he did. If i could only link him to 155 notting hill gate …
Katie
I did not say that. I meant that he aas old and needed care – due to media – and that there was this guy who did apperently care for him and therefore he must have done the financials, too. How good that he worked for a money transfer agency owned by notting hill gate 155.
Olifant
Protest!
LaRouche is NOT communist. They are nationalsocialist. And so is EAP. While the colour of communists is RED, the colour of Nationalsocialists is BROWN.
However, for the population it will always be the same in the end. There isnt much difference except that the communist pretend to say that everybody is the same. The brownies are more honest in that regards since they say that a few are better than all the rest. Other than that, it is the same.
I agree Felix, what a PR boo boo that is , fraud investigation ?
Four people murdered [ at least ] & they forget that !
Katie
Read my post above. I believe that they investigated another fraud. Tgey did not mean the annecy stuff with “fraud”. Apparently this guy was a scammer who did not only kne thing at once. Where did he get the account info fron? Malaga? I already linked one name of the Malaga branch of this office with Nigerian scammers last week. You can reread my post from back then if you dont believe me. Therefore i believe that this is unrelated except that there are perhaps scammers working for the 155 notting hill company. In malaga they should have known the SAH account info when he had transferred money for his father to that branch or else when that branch transferred money from the fathers remains to the UK.
Another question. I posted that photo already on icke. Some people told me that this is not SAH. Then i showed the photo to unrelated people in my personal environment and they said yes, that is him. We have only a confirmed photo with him holding his mouth closed. Here it is smiling mouth. Nose and chin and hairstyle and cheeks fit well. Please verify.
Second row standing. Fourth from the right smiling.
http://www.lockheedmartin.co.uk/uk/news/features/macmillan-cycle-ride.html
olifant
12 Nov, 2012 – 11:37 am
“… said one cousin, who refused to give his name. …”
If he didn’t give his name there was presumably no way of checking he was actually a cousin. To me it seems SM remains an almost total blank.
What is problematic with the location of the BMW Straw44berry 12 Nov, 2012 – 7:40 am. The car front wheels are quite straight. The car did not turn, it just reversed about 3 m. The engine might have been kept running (perhaps for the air conditioning?) whilst Mollier, Al Hilli and his daughter stood outside discussing something. Once they realised they were under attack a measurable amount of time will be taken up with SAH probably diving across the bonnet of the car, opening the drivers door semi crouching, getting into the driver’s seat, cetral locking the doors, starting the engine, engaging reverse, backing straight back into the bank. Meanwhile a gunman in this last element of the manoeuvre, comes along side, delivering the two shots to the head, whilst car remains revving and wheels turning. There is no need for a “drive down the road” which is anyway countered by the fact that Zainab was still in the car park. It is inconceivable he would have set off without her before he was aware of a threat.
Bluebird, from that photo I’d say it ‘could’ be him, but nothing definite, I get the impression that chap is a bit younger.
Sorry time is pressing, but I do believe you when you say something. 🙂
Bluebird Your link re SM pic was to Lockheed Martin Macmillan Cycle Ride. Was this correct? Is SM in that group in UK?
You maybe ‘right’ re S&P being on the’right’ but in Ugine it was part of the left. For some reason in Ugine in 2008 a left alliance formed. This included PCF which has long been part of Ugine politics. The mayor has been PCF and they have had about 10% of the vote there. The Molliers were probably in the Communist party as S&P seems to have been recent; maybe an umbrella group to draw together a wider alliance. Approx 13% voted for it in 2008. Agree that Larouche may be Right wing in places but in Ugine they thought it best to join with the left.
“since the public meeting we held last November 23, our Association Solidarity and Progress is committed to provide a list on the left for the 2008 Municipal Ugine. This will be based on a clear alliance between the leftist parties (a list of leftists, communists, socialists, environmentalists, progressive people, from the trade union movement or associations representing the left) in our city, without compromise with the right. It will be led by Louis Bertrand, councilor, former mayor from 1989 to 1995. A charter establishing the common base of candidates was adopted.The period since the election of N. Sarkozy has been marked by setbacks that affect citizens: social issues that play at local level, decline in the purchasing power of households, decline in public services, attacks against schools, health, lack of access to housing.”
Good points Bluebird, Bleb and Tim V.
Now, I have been mulling over a problem with my “no murders” scenario. Perhaps people here can help?
This is the theory which says that the Al Hilli’s (and perhaps SM too) were not murdered but were instead spirited away, and previously-murdered victims were substituted for them.
So far, I’ve considered that the only people who would have needed to know anything would have been (a) the team that carried out the operation, obviously, (b) DGSE who covered everything up and provided DNA samples, and (c) the pathologist who carried out the autopsies (if there were any), as s/he would undoubtedly have noticed that the corpses were embalmed.
(Unless of course they told him/her the bodies had been embalmed before autopsy at the request of the family or for national security or something like that.)
But this is not a big problem as to have a “tame” government pathologist, or one you can persuade, is not at all beyond the bounds of possibility.
And perhaps (d) Maillaud would be in on the plot too – but again, a public prosecutor working hand in glove with DGSE? Certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility.
No one else would have needed to know, as the scene was locked down for 8 hours and then dead bodies were carted away.
Now here’s the problem: WHAT ABOUT ZAINAB?
If she were wounded as reported later (not dead as reported at first) then she would have to have been treated in hospital, and we were told she was put into an induced coma to help her recovery, for example.
If this was real then it would have required doctors, nurses, surgeons, porters etc etc would have been witness to her injuries, which would kind of nix the theory.
But what if it was just a big lie, like so much else in this case? What if in reality she was alive and well (“playing with a sibling”?) What if staff at the hospital (where a relative visited her) were told to keep shtum and not talk to the media about her condition at all (patient confidentiality/national security), then only a very small number of people would have had to have known.
Or perhaps a specialist unit (doctor, nurse etc) could be flown in to “treat” her in a private room, and the unit were, in reality, DGSE? The rest of the staff at the hospital could have been given updates from this team so they didn’t really know anything…
But neither way is really satisfactory to me, and I’m hoping someone can come up with something better.
Any ideas?
@Bluebird
Re that pic and SAH, I can’t see any resemblance I’m afraid.
Ferret said:
Are you surmising that the families were told that they were killed (which would be very rude) or do you suggest that the families know of the plot and are able to visit them from time to time. Imagine the pressure on a 16 year old kid (on 26/11) like Leo Mollier [See a sombre looking Leo (which I take to be the most recent photo available, also because people in his age always want to portray themselves as grown up as possible) here ] in either of these scenarios, and imagine the risk of the truth getting out. The more people who knows about it the higher the risk of the whole story unravelling.
Ferret, it’s common practice in Islamic funerals for the next of kin or close family members to wash the bodies of the deceased. If they too hadn’t been in on the scheme I think they might’ve noticed something and what of the girls? Are they the real girls or substitutes like the bodies? If real why did the parents agree to go into exile without their children? If substitutes surely that represents an enormous risk. You can’t coach a four year old to be someone else with the necessary precision and again family and friends might notice.
No the whole extraction theory is too absurd and too complicated to work. It would be far easier and draw less attention to simply have the family die in a house fire. All that would be left then would be charred remains which could be anybody.
@Kenneth
Thanks for brining that up, this is precisely why I wrote “and perhaps SM too”.
Note the key word “PERHAPS”.
This is because SM is more problematic as he has close relatives not also “extracted”.
Whereas SAH & family would be extracted as one unit.
In any case I agree it would be cruel on remaining family eg SM’s children, and SAH’s brother Zaid, among others, to be told they were dead when they were not.
And as you say it would put a lot of pressure on relatives if they were told the truth, but told to keep quiet about it.
HOWEVER
It would be a lot less cruel than staying put in their Claygate home and waiting to get murdered by eg Mossad. Or the Iranians. Or the CIA. (Delete as appropriate.)
And, if the argument you raise is a valid reason to object to the theory out of principle, then witness protection programs would never work: either people would refuse to “disappear” because it would be too cruel for their brothers, sisters, etc left behind, or they would have to tell them secretly in which case the killers could torture the remaining family and get them to tell them where the relocated people were.
So (a) even though it might seem very cruel, it’s possible SM was also extracted. If so, I doubt they told his son. And (b) it’s possible SM was really murdered, but the Al Hilli’s were not.
If there is a problem of Israeli agents wanting to go somewhere to kill, then mount a machine gun at that place and wait til they appear.
@Kempe
Good points you raise too, but not incontrovertible:
a) Close family members washing bodies is why they had to have real bodies (and not fake ones), and why they had to more or less match in terms of skin colour and age, height and weight etc.
Facially they were sufficiently disfigured that they had to be identified by DNA. The only real problems would be very intimate details that only a husband/wife would know (so no problems there) or tattoos, but these are Haram (forbidden) in Islam, so no problem there either. http://www.muslimconverts.com/cosmetics/tattoos.htm
And normally Muslims wouldn’t suffer embalming of their dead but in this case we were told it was a French legal requirement which would be quite “lucky” for anyone wanting to substitute a body-double, n’est pas?
b) In this theory, the girls would be alive and well and are indeed going into exile with their family. I cannot conceive that the parents would leave them behind, unless absolutely forced to. (Kidnap? Not my first choice theory but not impossible.)
In any case, neither child has been seen since, apart from in the hospital in um, Grenoble was it? Now they are “in a safe location” in the UK. The “dead” Zainab at the scene could have been a fake too, either a real body double or a fake body.
c) I would agree with you that trying to get the girls to “pretend” anything would be a disaster. So far they haven’t had to yet, though – we’ve just heard comments from them via the prosecutor, who is being told by the debriefing team who must be security-related, so who knows what’s really going on.
d) So no, it’s not that complicated, and for my money it’s less complicated than most of the other murder theories out there and the myriad of unanswered questions. Particularly, why are there exactly 25 cartridges at the scene, all from the same gun? An Uzi has a 25-round mag, for example, but we’re told it wasn’t that.
So how is one person with a pistol supposed to have shot all the victims in the forehead, when none of the windows were broken through, and they were not shot through the windscreen, and the doors were locked from the inside?
And how then were the bodies so disfigured as to require DNA identification? It is *exit* wounds which cause disfiguration, not *entrance* wounds. So were they shot from the boot? If so, why say they were shot through the forehead?
Or, of these reports aren’t true, why make them up?
And why do three witnesses report hearing automatic gunfire, with one witness placing the shootings at 15h30? And why do no witnesses report hearing pistol fire, when several should have heard it?
All this and so much more, does not add up with any theory involving real murders, and points to a fake.
e) Finally re the alternative suggestions of methods of “killing” the family, one would indeed have to wonder why do it this way, when other ways would seem easier. Honestly, I don’t know, and I don’t have a great answer to this point. Perhaps it was done this way so it would seem really unlikely that it was staged, meaning that whoever was after them wouldn’t put too much effort into tracking them down?
@Kenneth
Quite. Obviously there are steps they could have taken to try and avoid being murdered actually at home, but they will go out to work, school, etc etc – and Britain is not a police state so they could not be protected all the time, even if they were being protected at all.
And apparently the Mossad are very good at getting into places undetected to move things around to scare their victims (=locks being changed in a hurry?)
Hence a need to “disappear”?
Tim V
The correct position of the BMW with sunken/flat tyre is not pointing at 90 degrees more like 120 it is angled towards Cevaline at the front. The aerial photo with the BMW at 90 degrees is after they started moving it for ease of getting on transporter. I have had disagreements with someone(cant remember who) in the past over this. But if you look at the various photos of the long twigs drivers side you will see that the BMW isnt parked parallel. I know Bluebird thinks it is parked in a position so that SAH can look down the road perhaps to see SM arriving, but I think it is so far back into the bank so unable to see anywhere. If I am right about this acute parking angle it is quite hard to get the car into such a position on purpose. Several manoevres if driving from Chevaline. But if they drove beyond the car park and came back it is easier. Far the most likely scenario is that they started driving beyond that area and had to reverse for some reason whether an agressive car/shooter on a motorbike maybe. If it was SM arriving in a bike he could reverse more leisurely. I think SAH almost turned too soon and put the rear wheels into the bushes and then at speed causes the rear wheel problem.
I never believed the semi-circular skid marks were from the BMW. See if with fresh eyes looking at the photos you think the BMW is parked at 10 o’clock angle rather than 9 o’clock if parked neatly.
@Bluebird
the Macmillan cycle ride is annual, but this particular photo was only taken at the end of October 2012
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10014868.Lockheed_staff_hit_the_roads_for_charity/
so it’s either not him or a very bold extraction which Surrey police haven’t got round to spotting as they are too busy chasing fraudsters.