The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
On timings, if we all had an estimate of when we think the murders(or in my case extractions) happened, I would go for between 2.00 and 2.30 I think most of the lies have been aiming to create a very small window that the incident happened. This small window is a persuading fact that you are likely to believe there is cleaning/playing with the facts of the scene that we see before 3.48pm.
Yes my belief means that I think BMs departure time is a lie, same goes for SM lying about his leaving home(was anyone even there to know). I dont believe the builders story and the story is laughable that we cant cope with seeing the happy photos of the family before their demise. Hide the faces, hide the whole family, just show the house and the time. Would that still upset us?
My guess is Saad did the same journey to the car park on a previous day when the photos were taken with altered time and date on the camera.
I can see no purpose other than the time the Al-Hillis left Martinet for the rest of their lives being before 3pm, they were well clear of the focus of the investigation.
James
24 Nov, 2012 – 11:47 “BUT MY QUESTION IS THIS….*threefold.
Why is it important that we understand that the shootings took place at this short timeframe (within 33 minutes or less) ?
If a witness cycling up the route saw the BMW pass, then the timeframe would have been even shorter.
Would that not be “better” (shorter) for the purpose of “short timeframe” scenario ?
But if Laurent Fillion-Robin stated he saw the BMW pass between 2.30pm and 3.00pm the timeframe of the shooting is increased.
Why is it important that we understand the shootings did not take place over a longer timeframe ?
Is this to do with the removal of a roof box / carrier of some type.”
It’s ALWAYS important to get an accurate timeframe James. Apart from anything else it subjects suggested evidence to an acid test of feasibility. For example for whatever reason, the police suggestion that the Al Hilli’s were actually at Arnaud at 3.15 is frankly IMPOSSIBLE. There just is not enough time to get from there to car park and be shot, even if Mollier was already there. It would also have meant that they would have had to have overtaken WBM to get there, something he would surely have mentioned if they had? Secondly I think it is important to distinguish between “the timeframe for the shootings” and the timeframe for the operation. It is likely that the shootings themselves took less than ten minutes from the time the 4 wheel drive took off from the top of the layby as indicated by the tyre tracks, to the time the assassination team it would appear of at least three, in 4×4 and on motor bike, set off, if WBM can be believed back down the Combe. How long the exercise had been in the planning is anybody’s guess but probably pre-dating the departure from England. If the location name is not co-incidence, the chosen location was as much the choice of the killers as it was the victims. The roof box question is one that must be solveable from ppl who saw the car. The implications of it being stolen as part of the operation are considerable.
Another thing, if this had been a state sponsored killing French or UK, the last thing they would do is rush to the scene.
Agreed Felix
24 Nov, 2012 – 3:52 pm. The behaviour of the French and circumstances confirms in my mind their deep involvement. The question remains whether this was as the assassinators or their facilitators. Britain’s total silence makes the nature of its involvement more problematic. Both Sunni and Israeli could both have motivation but the later greater viability in France and “previous” of assassination as state policy. America? Possible but less likely in France I’m thinking.
3.30 Gunfire -wasnt this continuous gunfire, certainly not 2 to each adult and occasional shots at windows around the car
This was the making of the scene before the phone call
Katie
24 Nov, 2012 – 4:07 pm. “Secondly , when I said about this pointing to AH being an asset I was thinking of an emergency call made by AH or one of the women direct to the Paris embassy, who also knew he was in France.” What’s this? Haven’t come across this before. I don’t think your suggestions start to explain why Maillaud (the VOICE OF FRANCE?) FULLY IN POSSESSION OF THE FACTS would announce Martin had made the initial call if it had been any of the Hillis. For you to be anywhere near right can you imagine the nature of the call from the Hillis under attack – revving car, shouting, screams, woman’s voices, multiple shots – how in the realms of all that is possible, could this be confused with a Martin call? You cannot be SERIOUS! As to Martin getting through without speaking to anyone or knowing it, do you really think this would have resulted in no less than five emergency vehicles within minutes? Come on pull the other one.
Katie
24 Nov, 2012 – 4:32 pm Fundamentally wrong Katie (again) I’m afraid. Think JFK! All that is required is sufficient time for the perpetrators to be clear of the scene. Anyway it’s still far from clear what the Sapeurs picked up on their radio. Was it the control room instruction of overheard communication on same wavelength. Is it significant that the police were the last to arrive?
Straw44berry
24 Nov, 2012 – 4:34 pm Now just imagine … 4×4 does the fast maneouvre from top of lay by, skids to halt possibly striking Mollier and Zainab. Man jumps out of passenger side … bam, bam, bam, bam … to the retreating Mollier, turning … bam bam bam …. bam (as SAH tries to get back into car … bam … bam through passenger front window as SAH manages to start car and reverse, as he does so shooter or accomplice moves down driver’s side bam ”’ bam through drivers window … now wheels spinning stuck in bank bam … bam … bam to rear passenger and bam… bam… bam into nearside rear passenger. How long would that take. Could it be reasonable for witnesses to describe it as “about 30 seconds of continuous fire”?
Tim I haven’t mentioned Martin other than ask about his phone.
Secondly we have ….I thought , established he & Maillaud are economical with the truth.
Why is it so impossible for AH to have a pre-set emergency number that needs no words simply an alarm through to the authorities who knew about the mission ?
You are thinking on mundane lines, IF, the guy was a spook & a clever one at that, surely this is not impossible to set up.
Likewise Maillaud would have been informed about who they were before he said anything to the press.
IF…. AH was on a mission for the state….which he could well have been, working with Mollier, to find possible smugglers or saboteurs within Cesus,it is also possible Mollier was keeping the authorities informed as to his whereabouts as he approached the carpark…he arrived at the scene was killed immediately, the Embassy picked up additional info over the wires,but were on standby anyway.
You’ve agreed they had received a message by then
There ‘has’ to be a connection between the two men.
There’s no way you can tell me I’m wrong Tim, as you have no idea what happened or what is right.
Dont forget :The Pajero mystery
http://www.breakingnews.com/item/ahZzfmJyZWFraW5nbmV3cy13d3ctaHJkcg0LEgRTZWVkGM3bjwoM/2012/09/13/sky-sources-car-owned-by-al-hilli-family-in-alps-shooting-being-looke
@SkyNewsBreak tweeted:
Sky Sources: French police are looking for a black Mitsubishi Pajero with British number plates in relation to shooting of family in Alps
Sep 14, 2012, 11:23 a.m. from twitter.com by editor
………
12:25 PM, FRI 14 SEP 2012
Report: Alps shootings police search for black 4×4 with UK number plates
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2012-09-05/five-shot-dead-in-uk-car-in-france/
12:25 PM, FRI 14 SEP 2012
Sky News is reporting that French police investigating the fatal shooting of a British family in the Alps are looking for a black Mitsubishi Pajero with British number plates.
Eyewitnesses told French police that the driver of the car looked “rather nervous”, according to the news channel.”
……
1:19 PM, FRI 14 SEP 2012
“Search for black 4×4 ‘not connected’ with Alps shootings
French prosecutors have told ITV News that the search for a black Mitsubishi Pajero with British number plates is “not connected at all” with the French Alps shootings.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9545251/Gun-in-Annecy-killing-may-be-connected-to-the-region.html
Saturday 24 November 2012
“There was also confusion after reports in France that police are looking for a black Mitsubishi Pajero with British number plates in relation to shooting were denied by officers.”
……..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9544571/Alps-shooting-British-schoolgirl-only-saw-one-gunman.html
Saturday 24 November 2012
“French police yesterday confirmed they are looking for a dark coloured Mitsubishi Pajero 4×4 Pajero vehicle with a tinted rear window.
A witness told police that a swarthy-skinned, “nervous” looking driver was speeding down the A39 motorway towards Lyon shortly after the crime took place.
However police denied initial reports that the vehicle was British-registered.”
Tim V
I think your shooting scenario works if you believe its a mad tourist hating gunman, but not if we believe that SAH had something they wanted.
If Zainab was injured and/or shot I believe that is only as a leverage for the …flash drive/papers/you choose. If they were willing to injure her why not kill her and stop her id’ing the shooter.
“Dial 112 from your cell phone if you still have no signal and cannot establish cell phone connection. The number 112 is an internationally recognized standard emergency number that when dialed can establishes an emergency signal where there is no signal. It is operational across the world including the United States and 27 European Union member countries.
Read more: How to Use a Cell Phone When You Have No Signal in an Emergency? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_7645479_use-cell-phone-signal-emergency.html#ixzz2DAHCyRmt“
With all the computers and laptops SAH had, there has been no mention of a laptop in the car or caravan has there?
“Satellite Phones
In areas with absolutely no service from any compatible service provider, your cellular phone will not be able to call 911. ……………If you are often in areas with no service and you are concerned about a potential emergency, you may want to invest in a satellite phone………………. Satellite phones use signals from orbital satellites rather than terrestrial cellular towers to provide service nearly anywhere in the world. However, satellite service is significantly more expensive than cellular service, and it does not provide any location-based information to a PSAP.”
Read more: Is it Possible to Use a Cellphone When You Have No Signal or Cell Towers in an Emergency? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_12146604_possible-use-cellphone-signal-cell-towers-emergency.html#ixzz2DAKVZCW4
Trohwbritge Foord
You are still typing Herskowitz wrong. What is your agenda?
I did present you the history of the Herskowitz family until back into the 15th century including their Iranian relatives.
You cannot even type their names correct after i gave you evidence.
What do you believe how serious you look like when you still insist on your own errors.
Why dont you start to investigate rather than presenting clueless sentences without any facts for a totally wrongly typed name?
I told you before that there is a chance that you are right.however, the weird way how you present your agenda here is making you look like a clown. Think about that!
Enough with the spelling of a surname which clearly has at least 3 versions thru its family tree:-
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.herskowitz/1.5.1.1/mb.ashx
@Strawberry 6.13
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19540445
“In France, police have recovered a laptop computer from the caravan in which the family was staying and are studying more video footage from around the crime site.”
@Katie:
“Another thing, if this had been a state sponsored killing French or UK, the last thing they would do is rush to the scene.”
Oh, rilly?
Thanks Pink
I dont think I would leave a laptop in my caravan if I was going out for a drive, prefer to leave it hidden in the boot of the car especially if I was concerned for my safety.
Are the police being sexist with the information they are releasing. Neither Iqbal or her mother are independent enough to have their own mobiles or laptops. I am assuming that SAH had his 2 mobiles in his door pocket.
Excerpt:
Now detailed analysis of a mobile phone belonging to Mr Al-Hilli has uncovered the message from a member of staff at the junior school that both girls attended in Claygate, Surrey.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2219539/Alps-murders-Al-Hilli-daughters-orphaned-Alp-massacre-school-permission-time-shooting.html#ixzz2DAV8oQ88
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Why didnt Iqbal get a message too? Again, were they separated?
@BB: Steilacoomb is near Fort Lewis/McChord AFB. Military families who work at Fort Lewis live there. Lots of news coming out of there. I wonder if the topless FBI agent comes from a military family. How did he end up in Ontario, Canada? Was his father working at a military base? There are military exchange programs, many having to do with NATO. Knowing which high school he attended in Ontario could reveal if he was near a military base. Total silence from the media about him on that point.
FWIW, Boeing was founded in Washington state.
The impeccable French and knowing the subtleties of an Algerian accent are most intriguing. Wasn’t Adlene Hicheur Algerian?
Topless FBI guy is always near the action, as you point out.
Hi All,
Just a few random thoughts.
The family were alert to dangers and had practised “hiding quietly and quickly” with their children. Hence the 4 year old hiding and not moving and maybe even falling asleep, as she knew not to move until told.
If they were at that site for specific though possibly dangerous rondevouz is it not likely they would have had a preset contact number in case of emergency.
As they were in foreign country their phone would have been set to roaming and able to connect to more networks than phones within country connected to specific network.
Also as 2 phones were found and Saad worked in satellite industry would he not very likely have had the latest technology in satellite mobile phones.
I believe when the killer struck one of the women shouted hide to the little one whilst the other pressed the precoded emergency number.
Straw
What you cite here is a different family. The family of william leo is spelled Herskowitz from the time they did emigrate to Budapest. Just check my links. We also need to consider how the family is spelling their own names and they are ALL spelling their name Herskowitz. There is no various spelling amongst that same family. None of that family branch had ever spelled their names Hershkovitz. That wrong spelling leads towards a different family who had nothing to do with william leo’s family.
We must follow the correct family, their Persian relatives and particularly we should find the reason about why the clean team removes internet sites regarding this family. And i want to find out whether that other iranian family whose daughter was killed and who had Budapest links, are somehow related to the real Herskowitz family or else to the iranian cousins of the late william leo.
Just discovered this little gem.
http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/spot-connect-makes-your-smartphone-a-satellite-communicator-20110111/
A long time ago we looked at the SPOT Satellite Messenger, a product designed to help people stay safe and in-touch with friends and loved ones if they were camping, off-roading, or traveling somewhere cellular signal or wireless Internet access weren’t necessarily available.
The SPOT Messenger allowed you to “check in” at a GPS location via the SPOT satellite network, and have your location and a short message posted to the service or sent directly to friends and family so they knew you were okay.
At ces this year, SPOT unveiled the SPOT Connect, a smartphone peripheral that pairs with your phone and gives you the same ability, even if you have no cellular signal. You simply download the SPOT app, pair the phone with the SPOT Connect device, and you can send short e-mail, SMS messages, even Twitter and Facebook updates via SPOT’s satellite network.
If there’s an emergency and you need to call for help, just press the SOS button and police and medical authorities in your vicinity will be notified, complete with your GPS coordinates so they can find you quickly. The SPOT Connect will be available later this year, although no specific release date was announced. It’ll set you back $169.99 retail, plus the cost of a SPOT subscription.
Tim V
The reason for taking the official views on the times, is to see if they (3.15pm and 3.48pm) could feasible place SAH passing WBM.
The problem with “reports” are that they often conflict.
The problem with offical releases, they also conflict !
However, using published statements (by WBM and/or The French police) questions can be tabled to french reporters so that they can table questions.
For example
WBM states SM is “ahead” of him.
Reports were that WBM was overtaken by SM at first.
A cinflict in “reports” and statements.
My aim is to try and piece together what “official” conflicts so that points can be made…if I can target a suitable reporter.
Whilst points can be made on forums or newspaper comments boxes, I think “The French” need a more active push !
Pink
24 Nov, 2012 – 5:50 pm Good example of the confusing rubbish emanating from the French. Can it be accidental?
Well said Juno. Exactly so.
The man Saad was a satellite whiz kid for goodness sake, it stands to reason he would want some ‘gadgets’.
Question re school absence: Schools keep contact information for both parents. They will leave messages on any and all phone numbers for parents when a child in junior school is absent without permission. This is a safety procedure. So yes, there probably were messages left on the al-Hillis home phone, any and all mobile phones, and even with the person(s) they had listed as an emergency contact. I don’t know who they would have listed. Most people list a family member in the same city, or a friend of the family who has children in the same school.
I guess Fred Humphries had a better French education than what many Canadians refer to as their “cereal box French”. It almost sounds like he was in a late-late-late immersion program that started in high school (do such things exist?). Maybe he lived in France, because it would be unusual for a person to become fluent enough in French to recognize the subtleties of various accents (i.e. Algerian-Montrealais) if they only started learning it at the high school level, and that was their only exposure.
So Q : 6-56, you think the special ‘military types ‘ would rush to the scene to incriminate themselves do you ?