The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Q
With all of France to choose, even though the area is beautiful, just why did they choose to live here?
Though their suitcases were packed. Interesting that all the hullabaloo of the Al-hilli murders didnt scare them off sooner.
—————————–
DOUSSARD, France — Fugitives Michael R. and Linda Mastro did not hide their identities from neighbors at their last home in France.
Their name is on the mailbox of the apartment they rented, one of 10 in a recently converted 1840 mansion in a hamlet called Marceau in the hills above the town of Doussard.
The Mastros were the first people to move into the complex — Résidence Domaine des Sources — this spring, said neighbor Dominique Maire.
The first time she spoke with Mastro, she said, was to ask him to stop his dog from relieving itself on her basement door.
Michael Mastro, 87, a former Seattle real-estate magnate, and his wife were arrested by French police at the FBI’s request Wednesday after 16 months on the lam.
They have been indicted by a federal grand jury in Seattle on 43 counts of bankruptcy fraud and money laundering stemming from the collapse of Mastro’s real-estate empire and his subsequent bankruptcy.
The couple are in custody in Lyon awaiting further court proceedings. Michael Mastro’s Seattle attorney has said the couple will fight extradition.
The first warrant for the Mastros’ arrest was issued by a Seattle bankruptcy judge in July 2011, after they failed to comply with a court order to turn over two enormous diamond rings valued at $1.4 million.
Their French attorney has said the Mastros were not aware they were wanted. But a source close to the case said their suitcases were packed and they were on the verge of moving when they were arrested.
(from mzt)
Mastro’s home in Doussard, http://www.foleydupont.com/en/real-estate-lake-annecy/doussard-domaine-des-sources.html
http://goo.gl/maps/3tLpS
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2012/11/19/french-police-seize-jewels-from-mastro.html
Other folks who lived in the same building as Mastro. Rocfort Aurelien worked for Ugitech back in 2006
3 résultats pour ” 115 Chappeliere Doussard”
Rocfort Aurélien
115 chemin de la Chapellière – 74210 Doussard
Sahli Mondher
115 chemin de la Chapellière – 74210 Doussard
Martel Catherine
115 Chemin De La Chapelliere – 74210 Doussard
On Google Satellite keep zooming in on the SE end of Route de Marceau Dessus and hey presto… STREETVIEW
Good find George, Google points to the end of the road where there isnt a building, but from where there are 2 large buildings, like the newspaper photo, it is 5km to the crime scene.
@ George 26 Nov, 2012 – 7:44 pm
@straw
“geographic proximity between the crime scene, Micheal Mastro’s apartment and the starting point of Brett’s ride came as a surprise to me, http://goo.gl/maps/3tLpS Doussard twice in the international headlines within 2 months.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Mastro
Don’t forget the New Zealand connections, BM having a “rental home” or maybe safe-house, in the area owned by his Silver Fern company, and the neighbours of the Mastros saying their were people from New Zealand living in the same complex.
The odd biz of the Mastro’s having their vehicle transported from US Washington state to France with much expense, supposedly to smuggle in jewels. Then the neighbor says they had visitors in cars (plural) with Washington state number plates. More expensive transport for people or they were military or diplomats who have autos moved free with them.
Why do the Mastro’s select that area when they speak almost no French? As did BM who spoke pidgin French though he lived there on and off some time.
A possible connection to shirtless FBI agent Humphries, who has connections to Washington state, speaks French well enough to interrogate terrorists and distinguish their Algerian accents from Quebecois. Who people say learned French in Ontario at a school nobody can locate. Also he appears in areas where terrorist things happen, and is now involved in Gens. P & A and Missus B & K affair and was whistle-blower to Congress when he thought FBI was sitting on story to protect Prez. O.
NR
yes its just 2.4 km from BMs rental to the Mastro house
Importing 1 car maybe especially for an elderly man, but from Washington state he wouldnt even be involved in getting the car out of Washington state.
But lots from Washington must point to a smuggling route, the proximity to Switzerland too and everybody has intel in Geneva.
NR,
do you think this is the ‘get out of jail card’ that BM flashed at the scene and was therefore believed immediately?
@ Q “Michael Mastro, 87, a former Seattle real-estate magnate, and his wife were arrested by French police at the FBI’s request Wednesday after 16 months on the lam.”
So they were driving around Europe in their vehicle transported from the US for some long time before they moved to the Annecy area, selling a jewel here and there along the way?
pdf re diamonds:-
http://seattletimes.com/ABPub/2012/11/19/2019714175.pdf
Tim
I still believe that wbm was rotoscoped. I think thst he wasn’t even close to that scene.
I believe that they did present a script as they had scripted JFK or 9/11.
Those scripts werent any better but there were different times. Would we have had the internet in 1963 as we have it today, then we would have uncovert the L.H.Oswald script within less than 2 days. And even 9/11 would have been uncovert in less than 2 weeks.
They simply were too lazy with their scripts because they do not know how we use the internet and they believe that all people are already brain washed and media believers.
However, some are still Winstons as the people on this blog are.
Their script was therefore unprepaired and amateurish without taking care for the little details. Change a script once the theatre had started and you’ll have chaos on the stage. Thats the same chaos that we discovered. They will try to brainwash us as they had done after 9/11 by presenting us a fool as the killer. That fool will commit suicide in jail or being shot dead like Mohammad Merah by police. Case closed.
NR
the new zealand connection mentioned in one of the mastro articles is probably M. Sahli Mondher. In reality Mondher is from Tunesia but is now a lecturer in New Zealand. He graduated from the Sorbonne. http://www.victoria.ac.nz/vms/about/staff/mondher-sahli He used to work for the University of Savoy some years ago.
@Straw: http://www.frenchentree.com/french-ski-property-chalets/displayarticle.asp?id=44617
http://www.privatejetscharter.net/airports/rhane-alpes/annecymeythet/ac4141/
Thanks Q – already lots of Brits there and now even more reason to be there
I am going to call it a night
taking a tiny sample from drimki.fr to see if Doussard has lots of foreigners in population
Chevaline – foreigners – v few Doussard – ?low ?low average
Compare with nearby/ with Annecy/ with random village/towns
Place / Income Avg. annual / Average age / Size Avg. home / Share (%) owner / Share (%) Single / Share of (%) foreign
Chevaline – 55 3 84 54 2
Saint-Jorioz € 45 930 41 3 70 34 3
Doussard – 45 3 65 33 5
Talloires (lakeside) – 43 3 74 35 4
Duingt (lakeside) – 40 3 68 31 6
Ugine – 39 3 45 38 7
Albertville 27 380 € 38 3 43 4 10
Annecy* 30 780 € 40 3 44 48 7
AnnecyleVieux*43 120 € 39 3 55 39 3
Seynod* 36 970 € 36 3 62 37 6
Cran-Gevrier* 29 860 € 36 3 55 43 10
(*Annecy distr)
La Roche-sur-Yon29 410 € 37 3 51 46 2
Saumur 26 590 € 38 3 46 44 2
Avallon 25 970 € 42 3 39 45 5
Cessey (village)- 41 3 85 25 2
Uzès – 45 3 47 48 8
Tim V 8:07PM As you often point out the 3:48PM phone call originally attributed by EM to WBM is the one point in time that keeps throwing every scenario off. That the attribution was changed later becomes all the more important since obviously someone figured out the problematic time line just as you had.
I still think that it would be a good exercise to lay out the possibilities between just 2 or 3 time events – ones in which there’s some independent corroboration – and see which ones conflict most with either logic (ie raise more questions than give answers) or some other fact that can be cited with a degree of confidence. You did a good job earlier debunking 2 of the 4 possibilities I saw, but maybe some of these are worth another look IF we take the 3;40PM call BY WBM as a key item of evidence.
The two fixed time points to my mind are then:
3:30PM Shots heard (which then allow us to surmise that SM has arrived at the martinet, though he could be there earlier)
3:48PM Phone call made BY WBM (meaning he must be there at that time, no matter what he says later)
I will also put greater confidence in the 2:50 PM time that the BMW was seen by the builders.
I would also take BB’s comments about careless scripting into consideration as I agree that there was ‘scripting” and that it was “careless”. It is however possible that either WBM and/or EM were not happy with the ‘script” and are providing a few hints that they are not quite willing to “play ball”, at least “not all the way”. In WBM’s case that would make sense if there was a deal gone sour and the massacre was not what he planned on or assumed he would be part of. IN EM’s case it would make even more sense as he may not like being led by the nose and made to look like a fool, so he drops a bit here and there like little crumbs for us – out yonder – and others -closer to the know – to pick up on.
In addition, I would also want to note that the one scenario that would fit all the facts AS WE KNOW THEM is the extraction scheme – partial or total – – advocated by Ferret and Straw. If SAH and family were there from 3:00PM or thereabouts there was plenty of time to make arrangements. SM could be or part of the extraction deal or actually shot whether an “innocent” party or not. WBM arrived earlier indeed – perhaps right about the time SM did and was part of the plot then staying behind to “clean up”. WBM’s call at 3:48PM makes sense (using for example a special satellite line) since by then the scene would have been “secured” – Zainab and Zeena taken care of – each placed where they were to be found – and things rearranged properly. PD can be part of the plot or not. The need to avoid any photos explained as is the need to keep the young girls under wraps in a secure location (rather than hand over to family).
So there’s the challenge – extraction fits the known facts rather well – BUT – a big BUT – the HOW remain unclear (due to the many people involved) as it does seem a rather complicated way of making people “disappear”. And we are no closer to the WHY than with any other scenario. However note that the way the killing was done raises similar questions: why so complicated? why so many? why there? why spare the kids? why the many inconsistencies and revisions? why the quieting of the media?
So yes, extraction is improbable but what was that Sehrlock Holmes saying? eliminate everything that’s impossible until what remains – no matter how improbable – must be the truth?
and Straw44berry
26 Nov, 2012 – 7:29 pm my point has ALWAYS been someone else made the 3.48 call. If Mailland was telling the truth, Martin lied or if Martin was telling the truth Maillaud lied. If phone reception at martinet was absent the call was either made by satellite phone or from somewhere else with reception. If the killings took place at 3.30 and killers set off at 3.35 this would allow them 13 minutes – enough time to get down the hill and to telephone reception. The killers could have raised the alarm when they knew they were well clear. Why might they do it? Could it be despite killing adults they took pity on the injured child Zainab and called the emergency services to get her attention?
Rather strangely I have had two telephone calls from unknown women recently and several unsolicited e mails also purporting to be women. Is someone trying to get to me? (I suppose it they are I’ve just confirmed they had the right person! Oops!)
Dubai’s role in the blood diamond trade:
http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/uae-free-to-release-zimbabwean-diamonds
Saddam Hussein and diamonds:
http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Saddam-Hussein-can-tap-billions-in-dollars-gold-2595431.php
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00947.html
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_10-3-2003_pg4_2
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/10026167/did-saddam-hussein-
deal-diamonds
Transnational CIA activities include tracking of money laundering via precious metals, diamonds, gold, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_transnational_anti-terrorism_activities
Note the reference to funding of terrorist groups via charities.
From late 2010:
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/uae-joins-ban-on-zimbabwe-s-blood-diamonds-369246.html
For your perusal in relation to the time line of Saad al-Hilli’s life.
Marlin
27 Nov, 2012 – 12:02 am we CAN’T rely on the 3.48 call as an indicator WBM was at the crime scene at that time as you suggest. The trouble is we only(!) have Maillaud’s word for the call and as I have pointed out many times, either he or Martin must be inaccurate/unreliable/lying.
It is of course possible that NO call was made at 3.48 and that it was initially made up to explain how the emergency services arrived so quickly after the event. If there was no call in the normal way the authorities might have been alerted by another route or source that would in some way be incriminating and need to be covered by a phantom 3.48 call.
I know this is just a hypothesis but it is not altogether fanciful. First is the fact that Maillaud is unreliable, second we have had absolutely no hard evidence about the call (as in Crimewatch playing the initial recorded conversation or even transcript) third the Sapeurs did not say they were officially ordered to attend but that “they picked it up on their radio” or some such, almost as if they overheard someone elses communication. This which resulted in them being the first to attend ahead of the Gendarme. Even a doctor, apparently got there before the police. We know nothing about him either.
So getting back to your post, if we accept for a moment Martin’s description is substantially correct, we have the shots at 3.30, him arriving very soon after as Zainab still standing before collapsing and going unconscious, and the times provided by him meeting Didierjean and the arrival of the first Sapeurs which must be logged somewhere “soon after 4″.
You say: ” It is however possible that either WBM and/or EM were not happy with the ‘script” and are providing a few hints that they are not quite willing to “play ball”, at least “not all the way”.”
I suggested this very thing many weeks ago. It is just not possible that after five days, Martin would not have had a story that conformed to Millauds, if he had wanted to. If Martin had tried to use his phone but couldnt, and knew by his Monday interview that Maillaud had announced to the press that he (Martin) had made the initial call, how easy it would have been for him to lie and support this version of events. None of us could have challenged it and the story would have worked.
This is why I think it was a deliberate move on the part of the British to put a “spanner in the (French) works” whilst holding back from public criticsm or confrontation. I believe WBM was genuinely shocked and surprised and this was either his personal way of torpedoing the official line, or on his government masters instructions.
Now as to the “extraction theory” sorry I can’t agree “it fits the facts rather well”. Do you think Mollier and Al Hilli families were prepared to go along with the funeral charades? Would not someone in the Grenoble hospital have spilt the beans that Zainab wasn’t injured or there at all? Why invent the story of Zeena being in the car for 8 hours the only result of which would be make the police look incompetent? Where would the blood have come from and the multiplicity of bullets. There are a host of initial attenders who apparently took video film from the start. The doctor on scene. All the forensics, the undertakers, the priests, the social workers etc. I just think that there are too many people involved to hold a great big lie together.
We must presume the bodies were identified and who would put children through such apparent trauma or parents not take them with them? And anyway why go to such a complicated process when a far more discrete disappearing trick could have been employed?
You say “So yes, extraction is improbable but what was that Sehrlock Holmes saying? eliminate everything that’s impossible until what remains – no matter how improbable – must be the truth?” I have quoted this one myself in the past and worked up an article around it. It leads me ineluctibly to believe this was indeed sadly a state killing and cover-up.
Tim V – I can’t take too much exception to your logic and frankly, I am not particularly wedded to one theory or another. was just mulling over possibilities in the hope that a hetherto hidden escape hutch might reveal itself just by looking at a wider scene from another angle. in It’s too much like poker though – making a supposition (or a bet) without being able to place much faith in any of the facts – or the body language – since even those that appear certain may be but a another layer of clever bluff.
II think though we are agreed that there are indications that WBM (on his own or per instructions) may well be chaffing under a burden they can’t reveal, but are not about to pretend that all is well either. Yet I also think t Milliaud may not be quite a happy puppy either. Why would either of them be happy with their script? – people who are used to being in control don’t like it when they are handed their lines and a pre-determined role and told there’s no choice but to be part of the play (cf the cover-up). Makes me wonder sometimes, how many people were told (in no uncertain terms) to do just that with regard to 9/11 or JFK?
So on another angle – seeing that we won’t be able to piece together the ‘how’ and have only a notion of the ‘when’ – it might still be worthwhile to speculate on elements of the ‘why”. If you are right, and WBM was indeed shocked at what happened (and his agency no doubt rate) then we must suppose that there was a double cross involved possible between not two but perhaps three agencies. One of my favorite small suppositions is that given that where the passports were found (and we have no reason to disbelieve that) there is a likelihood that SAH was prepared for an escape and/or an extraction – and brought them out to show whoever he was hoping will help. Perhaps in return for something which may or may not be connected with Mollier’s arrival. Again the likelihood is high that WBM was either shadowing Mollier or in on that part of the plot – there to make sure Mollier is arriving as agreed -n perhaps bringing something with him. But the other agency either was not who they pretended to be or had no intention of honoring their part of the transaction and figured they no longer need any of the individuals alive. That indicates that “they’ (the ‘killers’ agency) figured they got what they wanted and proceeded to exact ‘revenge’ (right on the Combe d’Ire) or revenge was the intent all along.
If that’s what happened, then we can surmise who those agencies may be based on hints and past MOs. Clearly, the brits (MI6 etc) would be one – potentially in collaboration with the French (that because they are both working so hard on a cover-up that keeps falling apart). The killers’ agency is less clear – but the MO suggests the Russian FSB (possibly working with or on behalf of another) or the Mossad – both would blink at killing kids IMO and both quite capable and hardly shy about a double cross. A mafia like organization is possible as well but it has to be a rather well-funded and connected one to justify such a deep cover-up. An Iranian agency or Iraqi one is another possibility(there were certainly a few motives potentially uncovered on these threads) but the MO is wrong and again there’s the question of a cover-up stretching over at least 2 countries – France and UK. Personally I am leaning to some Mossad involvement – but that’s purely a hunch. Who else can bring both the French and British intelligence agencies to heel (and I think they both did)?
But it’s a bit of an impasse now since it seems to me people here have gone as far as they could with logic and fact sifting alone. Maybe BB’s approach will yield some strange fruit as he/she goes hunting every which way.
Thanks again for your response (not to make light of the contributions of the other good commenters here – -I share the outrage that state agencies are allowed to just go about snuffing out people with no accountability or retribution).
@Marlin
27 Nov, 2012 – 3:36 am
Excellent post and I concur 100%. It is indeed a pity some commenters have chosen to leave, as everyone has something to contribute.
It is also fine to argue vociferously if necessary, as long as the arguments are backed up with some kind of evidence, even intuition and guesswork has its place. But please don’t resort to ad hominem attacks, it makes you look very childish. Please also reference your comments to make it easier to follow the thread.
Stick with it, any day now another snippet might emerge, one of the dramatis personae might break their silence, EM might even find a suspect.
If you do feel we have reached an impasse, go back and re-examine, check and double check, especially the earliest reports. See what we have missed, and above all, keep an eye on the global geopolitical situation, because in my opinion that is what this all about. Either that, or a lone vacationing mass murdering nutter.
@Marlin
27 Nov, 2012 – 3:36 am
PS My point about avoiding ad hominem is directed at others, not you!
Everyone doing so fine, I hate to see Sheloc go she really is like is a chocolate snowflake of purity. and I like her posts. let me say this. It is a fact women use both sides of their brains and we males only one. . .we let ego in way, and lose that kind of already demonstrated distributed processing or parallel thinking as it were..its a big drag on information sourcing and collating with the group..I’m serious..This is a multinational case..issues of resources, metals, minerals, diamonds as currency affect Germany and its PPK groups Not Just UK and France.tackling Turkey, and vice verse. She has perspective on that part of world..and its nuances..lose that, is like losing half a map. Don’t let dislike affect outcome.Save for people did this thing.no alpha and betas..
I don’t post much here not to get in your way..But reconsider that..we all flesh..have a heart and feel.words kill too.
Your house I’m guest.
Good night.
peace.
Thanks Mochyn. I agree that getting into tiffies is pointless, and as you said, everyone has something to contribute, even provocative or tactless ones. My own inclination is to just gloss over the personal jabs but I do understand that some people are more sensitive than others, in which case it’s for me to avoid a food fight. I do know that in past interactions on the nets I found to my surprise that sometimes I learn something from those I would first dismiss or consider adversaries. Someone said once that even the least of village idiots have their moments of insight (don’t mean to imply anyone here is such), so it behooves us to pay as much attention as we can muster. In any case, I prefer to believe that most of those who post here have been doing so not just because of interest in puzzle solving but also out of genuine revulsion at the ease with which an entire family of humans beings can be wiped out, and no one, certainly not the PTB, or the media at their service, behaves as if they owe us any answers. It’s the “move along, nothing to see here” part that’s so annoying.
Tim V
Why are you ignoring the Michael Mastro case, do you know something that I dont?
If the FBI have been watching him for some time then Chevaline will be liberally sprinkled with agents for this case.
BM may well be one of those agents and this will give him the ‘I’m not guilty card, believe me when I say they are all dead’
This ongoing case at the time also explains why Eric Maillaud had his hands tied and couldnt mention certain people for fear of jeopardizing their case.
All this yet Tim, you say nothing and ignore it all? I am confused by your lack of either dismissal or acknowledgement of how this alters everything about Chevaline in early September.