Not Forgetting the al-Hillis 22278

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The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.

Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:

the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?

The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.

Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:

Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.

There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.

But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.

The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?

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22,278 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis”

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  • Q

    @Pink: The accident in Chamonix shows that the local hospital in Annecy is familiar with treating trauma patients from skiing accidents. Emily Watts was transferred to a specialist unit, but was it within the hospital, or was she taken elsewhere? If elsewhere, where? Consular staff is providing assistance, but there is no indication of anyone at all rushing to the scene of the accident, or even to the hospital.

    This brings us back to why the al-Hilli children were taken to Grenoble. Why was that decision made? Is Grenoble better able to handle shooting victims, due to a specialist in gunshot wounds and severe beathings, or was it a matter of better security? In an ordinary scenario, people from the same accident scene could be sent to different hospitals based on the severity of their injuries. Those decisions would be made at the scene by paramedics in consultation with emergency staff via radio. In other words, the most severely injured child would be taken to a hospital where she could get the type of specialist care she needed. The apparently-uninjured child would be taken to a local hospital for examination. That is my understanding of these things. But such was not the case in this atypical incident. Why?

  • olifant

    Here’s another version of Monsieur PD’s account: One of a number on searching temoin philippe chevaline. {http://www.leprogres.fr/france-monde/2012/09/12/philippe-d-on-a-eu-peur-que-le-tueur-soit-toujours-la}

    1 No mention of seeing BM carrying a bike in articles scanned today.

    2 A clear account of PD’s phone call: (Lets assume that police did hear some witness say this) BM stopped them – bloody hands – hadn’t been able to phone for help – PD made a call – then went up to the parking place to see what had happened. Some might want to find wriggle room but the order seems pretty clear. Phone call, then onwards and upwards. 15.48 being the time given elsewhere (as in le Parisien**). What does alors mean? Then, so, in that case. (PS what else would anyone do when told of such tidings, except ring for help then and there?)

    A week after the killing at Chevaline, Philip D., a Haut-Savoyard taking part in a hike with two women friends on the heights above the village last Wednesday, he still gets a shiver whenever he thinks about that afternoon.
    « We drove the car to go hiking in the Bauges, he recalls. Usually, we go up by the other side (Savoie). This is the first time we came to the valley of Ire. Ascending on the small forest road, we met a man who drew our attention. His hands were covered in blood. He made us realize that something serious had happened a little higher up. Obviously, he wanted to give the alarm, but he had no mobile phone or no network. The parking place at Martinet was not far away, SO we called the Fire Department and went up to see what could be done… ».
    The small place, they discover with horror. The BMW break is there. Inside, the bodies of three members of the al-Hilli family, with bullet holes in the head. Just to the side is the body of the cyclist Sylvain Mollier and Zainab, the eldest daughter of Saad al-Hilli.

    Une semaine après la tuerie de Chevaline, Philippe D., un Haut-Savoyard parti faire une randonnée avec deux amies sur les hauteurs du village mercredi dernier, a toujours un frisson lorsqu’il pense à cet après-midi.
    « Nous étions partis en voiture pour faire une randonnée dans les Bauges, se souvient-il. D’habitude, on monte par l’autre côté (Savoie). C’est la première fois que nous venions par la combe d’Ire. En montant sur la petite route forestière, nous avons croisé un homme qui a attiré notre attention. Il avait les mains couvertes de sang. Il nous a fait comprendre qu’il s’était passé quelque chose de grave un peu plus haut. Visiblement, il voulait donner l’alerte, mais il n’avait pas de téléphone mobile, ou pas de réseau. Le parking du Martinet n’était pas loin, ALORS nous avons appelé les pompiers et nous sommes montés voir ce qu’on pouvait faire… ».
    Sur le petit terrain, ils découvrent l’horreur. Le break BMW est là. À l’intérieur, les corps des trois membres de la famille al-Hilli, avec des impacts de balles dans la tête. Juste à côté, la dépouille du cycliste Sylvain Mollier et Zainab, la fille aînée de Saad al-Hilli.

    **The investigators then check travel times of each witness on the scene. “This work consists in putting witness statements in harmony with the suggested chronology, as it is reported to us,” (mettre en cohérence les témoignages avec la chronologie supposée) said a source familiar with the matter……… The hiker, accompanied by two friends had planned a night time circuit in the alpine slopes of the Bauges. The forest trail to the parking du Martinet is 3.3 km. A road with numerous curves, but above all in very poor condition with huge ruts. The drive takes ten to twelve minutes at most. Philippe, who made the call for emergency medical assistance is chronodaté at 15:48. A crucial witness
    { http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/la-tuerie-de-chevaline-a-l-epreuve-du-chronometre-13-09-2012-2162933.php}

  • bluebird

    Child seat in front? Did anybody see a child seat in the car? Of course it could have been removed by police before the photo was taken. However, I cannot see a child seat in the front (passenger side) and we have got a pretty good areal photo of that side of the car.

  • James

    Bluebird et Tim.

    If (IF) Martin arrived at the carpark 15.45.
    He would be leaving Chevaline and starting on the Combe D’Ire at 15.15

    The police are therefore saying that Martin is lying !

    Then again Martin could claim the police are mad.
    Their theory is that Al Hilli made his escape, leaving behind his daughter.

    If (IF) the car hadn’t hit the bank, Al Hilli would have been where ?
    I guess in hiding as the story and his “boat race” would be splashed across The Sun !

  • NR

    @ Tim V 13 Dec, 2012 – 12:49 pm
    “I agree NR 13 Dec, 2012 – 3:41 am that the reporting of PD’s account is fraught with apparent contradictions. However I still haven’t come across his reference to WBM “carrying his bike”. Do you have it?”

    I wan’t the one that mentioned that and I don’t recall hearing it. I think it was someone else, Bluebird maybe, that said it then agreed it was probably a mishearing or mistranslation.

    From your EM analysis: ” He claims the shooting lasted only a minute whilst the police apparently think it was 4 minutes… rapid gunfire. soon as the break BMW Saad al-Hilli stopped”

    It contradicts the earwitnesses who say 30 seconds of gunfire.

  • NR

    @ Q 13 Dec, 2012 – 3:34 pm
    “@Strw44berry: I see the official photo of the Kate hoax nurse has now been changed to a younger, different woman. So how are they explaining the “family” carrying a totally different photo of a totally different woman? No explanation at all from what I’ve seen. A fine example of media manipulation/gaping holes in stories/”facts” that make no sense.”

    You mean a pic of a completely different person or one of a younger, more attractive woman (she was plenty attractive in the original ones). Like all the media use the pic of a young, cute, 15 year old Trayvon Martin and as sinister a pic of Zimmerman as they can find in the Martin/Zimmerman shooting case in Florida.

    That would enhance the fund-raising. Considering it was the radio industry that started this, why hasn’t it enlisted the most celebrated rock stars for a global fund-raiser to assuage the global outrage over the induced suicide? They’re available now, having finished last night’s concert for victims of storm Sandy. How much of those proceeds will come into to the hands of actual victims, after Hollywood accounting and a string of intermediary charities?

  • Tim V

    thanks to Pink at 6.52 the le figaro item from 9th September @ http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2012/09/09/01016-20120909ARTFIG00123-eric-maillaud-un-procureur-tres-communicant.php:

    “Not confirm a leak without a sense of frustration at his interlocutor, avoid as far as possible subject to not give importance or even dare to answer “do not know” Eric Maillaud control quite naturally all these techniques. But “after a moment, turning round,” says the prosecutor. “The first 48 hours, all goes well, we described the facts, says former spokesman of the Ministry of Justice, Guillaume Didier, but after … This becomes more difficult and must be on time. And there is no worse than a prosecutor who talks too much! “Regulars know well: every word counts. The less experienced attorneys are often still surprised by the impact made through the press or media, they innocently spoken sentences.”

    What do we know of stated “Guillaume Didier” who appears to share at least part of Philippe Didierjean’s name which appears a couple of days later I believe?

  • Q

    @Bluebird: Everyone knows that a child car seat should not be used in the front seat, except under certain conditions. Did the al-Hilli vehicle have passenger side airbags? If so, the car seat probably should have been in the middle of the back seat. Did the vehicle have second generation airbags? Were the al-Hillis using an old car seat that wasn’t compatible with the anchor system of their vehicle? Again, more questions.

    I guess not quite “everyone” would know about child car seats, if they didn’t work with children, or have children of their own. But the al-Hillis would. I doubt that they’d be using an expired car seat, either. And if their vehicle wasn’t compatible with the new car seats, surely they could have afforded to retrofit it.

  • Pink

    http://www.vae-solis.com/actualites/index.php?post/2012/01/24/Guillaume-DIDIER-ex-porte-parole-du-ministere-de-la-Justice-rejoint-Vae-Solis

    “About Vae Solis Corporate
    Founded in 2002 by Arnaud Dupui-Castérès and operating under its current brand since 2007, Vae Solis Corporate is a strategy consulting firm information, reputation management and crisis communication that works with to private and public organizations, both French and international, to develop positioning strategies and corporate communications, public affairs, media relations and e-media, and crisis management.”

  • Q

    @Pink: Shouldn’t children be in the back seat until age 12?

    There are also hybrid booster seats, such as this one, that use the harness up to a certain height and weight. Some children don’t reach the upper weight and height limits until they are well into primary school.

  • Tim V

    Another useful quote Pink
    13 Dec, 2012 – 8:52 am from the Telegraph, if only to illustrate yet another contradiction.

    “Lt. Col Vinnemann said: “The main witness, a cyclist who discovered the grisly scene, said he was overtaken by another cyclist on the climb that leads to the parking lot where the shooting took place. Arriving there, he found the cyclist on the ground with gunshot wounds near a car. In the vehicle, a man and two women, has also been shot. On the OTHER SIDE OF THE CAR, a child of 6-8 years old was alive. He placed her in the recovery position until help arrived. She had been very badly beaten.””

    Contrast this with WBM’s account that after he had moved Mollier to safety “It seemed like a good idea to turn the engine off SO I WENT ROUND TO THE DRIVER’S SIDE”.

    So in the first account we have Zainab and Mollier on OPPOSITE sides, we presume meaning Mollier was on the RHS as all the graphics placed him, Zainab on the LHS. In the second account WBM clearly states from tending/moving Mollier he “goes around to the driver’s side” which can only mean Mollier was lying on the nearside (with Zainab) This ties in with blood stains.

    Both he says were in front of the car in a position of danger. It may be explicable that he would move Zainab back to the nearside of the car but quite unbelieveable that he would drag Mollier all the way from the front RHS to the nearside. If safety was his consideration it would have been to the softer surface of the wood edge.

    Anyway another clear case of conflicting evidence coming from WBM either directly or via the police.

  • Pink

    @ Tim
    Mine must be the true version as they didnt lie for the first 48 hrs 🙂

    @Q
    It depends on the child they quite often don’t like car seats and prefer booster when they get older ,children in my family use booster seat in front if you have several children its not easy getting them all in the back.
    I understand Zainab suffered from car sickness so would find it more comfortable in the front of the car .

  • James

    “I understand Zainab suffered from car sickness so would find it more comfortable in the front of the car” .

    Or going by plane !

  • bluebird

    Q

    We knew that Litvinenko worked for MI6. The Russians said this already regarding the Magnitsky case. They also said that Litvinenko had testimony for the UK government regarding the Hermitage fund.

    I had to smile when I read that he met an MI6 contact whose name is “Martin”. Obviously all MI6 guys who meet a MI6 “Martin” would have to die rather sooner than later 🙂

    NR, pink, Tim
    It was me who said that there was an article (probably badly translated) that said that BM was running with his bike when meeting PD. I see this in the other blog on this website being discussed Sept 12th. However, I said already that I stay corrected and that this was probably a translation error.

    Q
    No children at the age of 7 are allowed to sit in the front. I cannot see a child seat when watching the passenger side of that areal photo. Maybe police removed it. I don’t know. Perhaps – since this was a lonely mountain road – perhaps Saad allowed her sitting in front. This is not unusual. I had done that for my kids, too, when they were kids and when I was slowly driving in excluded areas. So perhaps there was no child seat in front during the last 3 km drive at all but she was still sitting in front. It may have happened like that.

  • Pink

    Make yourself useful James and check my marks in the video they may have been made by the missing roofbox 🙂

  • Q

    @Pink:

    Isn’t there any enforcement for improper use of car seats? Or am I incorrectly assuming that child car seat use is regulated in the U.K. and France?

    Re: marks in grass. I see what you mean. The photographers look puzzled. What kind of vehicle cuts wet grass on the edges only? It is normal for skid marks from vehicles to leave bare soil. Here we see the grass is untouched, and only the edges of the tracks are cut.

    Could that be a mark left by the helicopter, or by one of the tow trucks or a lift used to hoist the vehicle?

  • Pink

    Did you notice it says “she had not been shot”

    early reports
    Telgraph 6/9/12

    “The older girl had been airlifted to hospital and was said to be in a stable condition at Grenoble University Hospital.
    A French newspaper reported she had not been shot but was brutally beaten before being left for dead with a fractured skull, nine miles from where the family had been camping at Le Solitaire du Lac campsite in Saint Jorioz.”

  • Q

    @Straw44berry: why Grenoble at all for Zeena, when Annecy is so much closer? By then, the consular officials had already been involved. At the scene.

  • straw44berry

    The initial official story was only 1 car sear meant only 1 child.

    I assumed they meant in the middle of the back seat, I didnt consider SAH would try and use it in the front seat. Far too easy a reason to be stopped by the police.

  • James

    Pink…

    If you go to one site, can’t remember which, it’s one with syndicated pictures on it, there are Annecy Murder pictures.

    One picture (not published) had a deep tyre mark.
    I don’t know where it was in relation to the crime scene (somewhere with a bit a grass) but I took it to be infront of the BMW and to the right (as you look at the BMW). But that is just a guess from lookin at that picture.

    Anyway, I had this down to the arriving Fire Service.
    It any have been something else, but as nothing was made of it, that’s what I put it down to.

    Anyway, as the press were “released” on to the scene, I guess they took pictures of everything.

    But not the poo Eric says was there !
    Or the hunting casings !
    Or cigarette butts (has Eric not heard of DNA !)

  • Tim V

    Bluebird
    13 Dec, 2012 – 8:55 am the United States must be very afraid and ashamed of the truth if they will not allow their prisoners to tell the world how they they were treated by this “freedom loving” nation. A new dark ages is descending on what we thought was the reasonably civilized, democratic world. Where is the outcry from within that country that we once looked up to? Admissions of guilt from these individuals is essential to cover up the biggest crime perpetrated on the people of the United States since the assassination of the Kennedys. This whole process is a charade not befitting the most remote jungle enclave. Only the American people can preserve the reputation of its justice system, Constitution and state.

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