The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
You might have something there 2Cents
16 Dec, 2012 – 2:04 pm. But would the cover story be ? Without it there would have been a major mystery. “British family disappear in France”???? p.s. Haven’t seen your tag before. If new to here – hello and welcome.
I’ve read the original posts by CM and popped back to keep an eye on the comments since this happened in Sept. I don’t post very much but these points just don’t seem to be out there…
Perhaps the family were due to pass away the very next day – successful extraction now MSM spins story about horrible family boating accident.
On the other hand it could be a meeting to arrange the safe handover of one of the females? Taking fake Granny to the South of France would be a perfect excuse and would explain lack of information and the fact that some reports suggested the kids did not know her?
I’m really not sure and I don’t want to try and make it fit but I just think it’s odd that the whole family went to this meeting and had their passports if this is how it happened. I mean packed away passports are one thing but I heard they were reported as found in the foot well?
I’m also still not convinced they would not know all of the passenger details within 30 mins of finding the scene. I just cannot believe they really took 8 hours to find the living child inside the car. I feel they would have known the exact details of those passengers within an hour of arrival and that would be on the basis of them being random tourists. Given the fact that they are clearly known to agencies etc then I would expect them to know almost everything about the people in that car.
I don’t believe BM.
I can believe SM was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He might be a confusing coincidence in all of this but who really knows?
Hi guys- go have a look at the news outside.
The ball’s back to France again….
hahahaha too funny 🙂 Thanx Shela
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9748567/French-cyclist-in-al-Hilli-murder-was-in-bitter-inheritance-dispute.html
By Devorah Lauter, Paris
4:15PM GMT 16 Dec 2012
Sylvain Mollier, 45, was shot seven times and killed on September 5 near in an isolated clearing Lake Annecy, in the French Alps, along with three members of the al-Hilli family. Two of the al-Hilli children survived, with the youngest, four-year-old Zeena, found hiding under her mother’s body.
Though prosecutors have said no stone was being left unturned in the still unsolved investigation, the focus has remained on the al-Hilli family, and whether they were victims of an inheritance-related dispute, as opposed to the “forgotten” cyclist.
According to reports, Mr Mollier, a divorced father of two, was also involved in “a bitter dispute” over a £1.1m inheritance, belonging to Claire Schutz, his partner 16 years his junior, and the mother of their child born just three months before the killings.
Ms Schultz’s family reportedly disapproved of the way Mr Mollier was living off of his partner’s money.
Nearly a year before the shootings, Ms Schultz reportedly inherited the ownership of the Schutz Morange Pharmacy in Grignon, from her parents, valued at £1.1m.
Related Articles
Killer may be ‘deranged’ and ‘has killed before’
17 Nov 2012
But Ms Schultz’ family was reportedly increasingly concerned about Mr Mollier’s potential claims over the money.
Prior to the killings, Mr Mollier also arranged to take time off work at a nuclear metal works factory, Cezus, for what French media described as paternity leave, but was also reportedly expected to last three years.
“Sylvain came from a down-to-earth family but had growing claims on Claire’s fortune. This was something Claire’s family was not happy about,” a source on the local council, where Ms Schultz’ father Thierry served for two years, told The Sunday Times.
“They were particularly concerned about Sylvain’s spending. There was a bitter dispute over what was going on and this got worse when Sylvain took three years off to effectively live off Claire’s money.”
Eric Maillaud, state prosecutor in charge of the investigation, has confirmed tensions existed between the Schutz family and Mr Mollier, but he dismissed them, said: “they were not something I particularly wanted to make public. The family is entitled to their private life.”
Mr Maillaud has long held that, “there is no possible reason to imagine [Mr Mollier] is for whatever reason directly implicated in his death. He seems to have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.”
you can’t make this stuff up
@ Shelock H. 4:25
Presumably you mean this (or one of similar reports in ST and Telegraph)
{http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248973/French-Alps-shooting-Cyclist-murdered-massacre-involved-bitter-dispute-million-pound-inheritance.html}
Thaanks for the nod Shelock H
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1177548.ece
Times taster
THE French cyclist murdered alongside three members of a British-Iraqi family in the French Alps had been embroiled in a “bitter dispute” over a £1.1m inheritance.
Sylvain Mollier’s relationship with Claire Schutz, a woman 16 years younger than him who had inherited her parents’ pharmacy business, had been of concern to her family.
Also in the mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248973/French-Alps-shooting-Cyclist-murdered-massacre-involved-bitter-dispute-million-pound-inheritance.html
you’re all quite good dedectives!!
http://www.pharmaciengiphar.com/minisite/schutz/index.php?mod=equipe
They are so young to give up life business to such a young girl. The business is worth 2 mill usd dollars does not mean she had that in the bank. I would not have handed that over to her while she was with Mollier for sure. That is a big mystery right there, unless he met her after the transfer. and it was too late…Father must have been furious. The Mama’ too. They probably knew about him from neighborhood talk. For sure, if he was a controller, and it looks like he was.she could easily get loans from it as collateral.a local banker gossip would get around quick…he would have bled it to death.
Some interesting bits on Mr Morange posted by Peter at MZT
12-16-2012 at 15:54:51
Detective- typo, sorry.
At least we cannot blame EM for beeing lying….
Mr. Mollier was indeed at the wrong place at the wrong time….
Just not up in the woods. Just in the wrong family- IF, so IF there’s some truth in it
Can’t help having a kind of “kindergarten” feeling about this all.
With that outcome of the story, wouldn’t there more questionmark-stars above the Franco-Britain sky as ever before?
But so far- anything is possible and nothing is impossible.
😉
Manny, may be they had to … because of a possible marriage.
After Mr. Mollier as her husband and taking over the pharmacy means 50:50 in case of a divorce one day (chances are quite good on that)
Another scenario to avoid that splitting would have been a marriage contract…. but may be one part of the couple wasn’t d’accord with that?
confirmed..looks like someone put some hot chili pepper for him to reveal that.
Eric Maillaud, state prosecutor in charge of the investigation, has confirmed tensions existed between the Schutz family and Mr Mollier, but he dismissed them, said: “they were not something I particularly wanted to make public. The family is entitled to their private life.”
”
Mr Maillaud has long held that, “there is no possible reason to imagine [Mr Mollier] is for whatever reason directly implicated in his death. He seems to have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.””
Aside from the ridiculous part “Long Held”
This still implies he holds theory to crazy gunman and or Al-Hilli targets and leaves the British connection open.
Excellent point Shela ..In my state here in US we have commonlaw..where if you go 1 day as passing to world you are man and wife..thats it..you are married and have to go thru regular divorce..But this really reignites the enthusiasm..I like EM despite how exasperating he is. That release will shake families up for sure!
I have just had a thought I don’t know if its likely but I will try it out .
You have probably seen in the various posts that the lay-by is a border between Savoy and Haute Savoy I don’t pretend to know much about it only what I have seen in bits posted on the forums that it is a source of dispute in that part of france .
The BBC originally gave the site of the shooting as the top car park which is beyond the the boundary at the lay-by around the hairpin bend, I also remember seeing what looked like a tent in the bit between the lay-by and the top carpark in the overhead footage I assumed it was being used by police for something.
Would there be a reason the police would want this crime to seem to have occured the other side of that boundary by moving it to the lay-by from the top carpark.
Just a thought if anyone thinks it an idea I will look for links.
@Pink..If you can link that I would love to see Tim Has that mapped out better than google I think maybe he can. seeing car in different colors and positions and tyre marks one clean caar than dirty car all in same page
@Shela I must eat my my word ridiculous he has held that for some time. And apologize to him.
“by Y
EM still insisting that SM was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
from MTV I mean MTZ 😀
‘Venu sur les conseils de ses proches, “il s’était trompé de route par rapport aux indications géographiques qui lui avaient été données”, a précisé M. Maillaud.
“L’entourage de Sylvain Mollier a fait l’objet d’une enquête extrêmement approfondie”, a-t-il insisté car “c’était une des premières interrogations des enquêteurs: était-il la cible principale?”.’ Le Figaro.
http://tinyurl.com/9neeolc
There was interesting not by Peter R that Claire would have to pay for estate tax, but whom is to say that was not paid or even as he stated just the revenue stream handed to her until it went to her on their death? If mortgage free then simple loan as I mentioned earlier could take care of that..amortized as any equity loan.”
The point was he is missing is the family really not happy..and anything threatening was ever said anywhere..EM now has it. People have killed for a lot less money than that.This could be opportunity for whoever, however remote, to come foward
Yup 2Cents
16 Dec, 2012 – 3:43 pm these inexplicables have been oft commented on (including me even!) I just don’t think tourist trip to Martinet or chance meeting with Mollier, but why they should meet and how Martin and/or Didierjean really fit in remains an unresolved mystery to us at least. I don’t believe it is a mystery to the British or French secret services or for that matter to Maillaud either. They must be fully aware of what telecommunications took place, if not before certainly after, which no doubt provides all the information they need. My only explanation to choosing Martinet of all places was 1. because of the poor mobile reception and 2. it was chosen by the killers for the meeting because of its remoteness and lexicographical connections. My feeling is that SAH was paradoxically, keeping his family close for safety reasons although they also provided a certain degree of plausibility that a single man in a remote spot wouldn’t. Passports on the floor I believe point to proof of identity for the meeting which were either dropped speedily on his return to the car whilst under attack or placed there for ease of access. Just ideas…
@ Manny
16 Dec, 2012 – 5:20 pm “Eric Maillaud, state prosecutor in charge of the investigation, has confirmed tensions existed between the Schutz family and Mr Mollier, but he dismissed them, said: “they were not something I particularly wanted to make public. The family is entitled to their private life.”
The question that naturally arises and which Mr Maillaud should now answer (the Al hilli’s can expect no less) why if the the Molliers and Schulz families were “entitled to a private life” why the same courtesy was not extended to the Al Hilli’s. Does he not ascribe to the concept of “equality before the law”? What enabled him to immediately, specifically and publicly identify an Al Hilli family dispute over money as being a line of enquiry, whilst ignoring and keeping secret an almost identical one relating to the Mollier/Schulz families for more than three months.
This alone (leaving aside all the other inaccuracies and prevarications) suggests a bias that must place a significant question mark against his ability to lead the investigation.
“The Schutz family, who now refuse to speak about the murders, have been receiving advice from Pierre Morange, the brother of Genevieve Morange.
A political ally of Nicolas Sarkozy, the former French president, he is the MP and town mayor for Chambourcy, near Paris.
Morange found himself drawn into another high-profile murder case five years ago when Christian Marichal, the chief of police in Chambourcy, was found stabbed to death at his home.
The murder came shortly after both men had been accused of corruption, allegations they both denied.
A year later, Morange, who said he feared for his life after Marichal’s murder, was granted a special permit to carry a handgun. Mr Morange declined to comment on the latest killings.”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248973/French-Alps-shooting-Cyclist-murdered-massacre-involved-bitter-dispute-million-pound-inheritance.html#ixzz2FFH7GxY7
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Get cracking BB!!!
That explains how mollier could handle 3 years without any earnings. On the other hand, normal families dont kill wannabe boyfriends of daughters in lonely forests. That is nonsense and not logic. If you would kill for that reason, then we would have 500 murders each day. Also a pharmacist can kill and will kill in a different way that is less risky and cannot be detected as a killing. It would either look like suicide or some kind of heart attack or stroke.
There must be a different reason. It could also be another false hint to focus away from intelligence and military.
BB: Perhaps it is worth mentioning that Dion Longworth had a connection to a pharmaceutical retail chain, via his father. It is also worth noting that Big Pharma is a large employer in Indianapolis. There is a whole lot of CT about that Big Pharma company in Indianapolis.
I’ve mentioned it before: Big Pharma comes up in connection to many of the stories that end up on sites like this one.
As they say “this story has legs”! At least we now have confirmation of, and an explanation for, the inordinate three year leave. Also confirmation of SM’s parlous financial position, that had become dependent on Claire Schulz. He was spending irresponsibly apparently, of which his expensive bicycle was but an example. This paints a certain picture that may or may not be accurate.
It would however strengthen the view I mentioned numerous weeks ago, that such a person would be in need of cash and be amenable to financial offers. Potentially a family dispute over money might provide motive (though obviously not to Mr Maillaud) though as with the Al Hilli’s, I doubt it would be sufficient to order the killing of not only Mollier but also three “unconnected” individuals. And how would they know he would be at Martinet if he was not following the route he had agreed with Claire Schultz and why involve an innocent family? Nevertheless it does strengthen the possibility that SM was meeting up with the Al Hilli’s on the promise of reward for something, be it co-operation, information or action.
There has been a consistent effort on the part of Maillaud to down play Mollier’s role and the thread has had to change over time. Initially less bullets; not to head; “wrong place – wrong time”; body searched; inaccurately placing his body; no explanation for WBM moving him; then shot first seven times with “double tap”; and now with-held personal details. Whatever hypothesis for the murders may be advanced, it appears to me a suggestion that Sylvain Mollier was not a target, is now untenable.
Note this picture says :The road leading to the spot where the shootings happened
Not “the spot where the shootings happened ”
Tranquil: The road leading to the spot where the shootings happened in Chevaline, part of the French Alps
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200062/Amid-quiet.html#ixzz2FFFRgH8r
I found this of the hairpin but no tent higher up I thought I saw one on the left, I will see if I can find any more overhead of the hairpin.
The net is going at snail pace must be all these sunday drivers 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap3DK7myAN4&feature=related
0.52 is a shot of the lay-by
re. my post at Tim V
16 Dec, 2012 – 7:36 pm we have here not merely a conflict between the middle class Schulz family and working class Mollier famility, but also between fundamentally different political outlooks, if the affiliations are anything to go by. These may be simplified to right wing capitalist and left wing socialist. How this plays out in terms of religious and geo political sympathies is something worthy of further thought. Could Mollier be characterised as a holder of principled political views or as mercenary amenable to whatever side might offer the greatest benefit?
re recent article: ‘slain cyclist in feud over lover’s fortune’ There’s no point in searching earlier comments, so so many. But the transfer of the Pharmacy from Schutz parents to Claire S has been commented on. How much has the paper hyped the “fortune” aspect?
What’s new? Do we know what arrangements were agreed? No. They retired and daughter takes it on. Was a mortgage involved? Or regular payments to supplement M et Mme’s pension? “A fortune”? – what is that? It was suggested that maybe M and Mme Schutz would contimue working in the pharmacy p/t.
Heres’s one offer for sale in UK: Freehold: £1,100,000 inc Goodwill or Leasehold £850,000 plus Annual Rent: £18,000 Village location with no competition Opportunity to expand Business shows continued growth Up to 70% loan available via Christie Finance.
Pharmacy Forum says turnover often reckoned at 80-100% of £750,000 – £1,000,000 market value and 90-150% of £1,000,000 plus. Thus a business worth £1.1million has a turnover of £1m. “isnt gross profit closer to 35%?” “Net profit after all overheads deducted is usually about 10%” Gross profits – sale of drugs, Net proft – less rent and rates, staff costs, interest payments etc. Employing a manager or capital repayments will havce a big effect. So a £1.1m pharmacy in a village in UK could bring in net income of ~£100k maybe more if owner manager and no capital repayment. Even if CS worked p/t, employing a pharmacist, and had repayments to make her income would be a lot more than a worker at Cezus.
Feud? Christopher Mollier is quoted saying there was ‘serious friction between the families’. Said someone on Grignon council ‘Sylvain came from a down-to-earth family but had growing claims on Claire’s fortune. This was something Claire’s family was not happy about’
Was this the sole cause of friction though? And who said “feud”? After all Claire was the major earner; they had agreed to let her have the business, could parents do anthing to restrict her spending on SM? No. What else were they uneasy or critical about?
Previous note has been made of the balade solitaire, dans tous les masifs. Said to have been told of new route to cycle by M Schutz. Odd? And taken a wrong turn along the way – when there is only one road to Martinet? Odd? The notorious electric rock festival (plus drug use + violence) at Fort Taime that weekend. The TV news showing the white house, Lydie Ringot in the coiffeur shop, the Ave Paul Girod Cezus main gate, the cyclist with the mohican on the cycleway out at Marlins – all seemingly authentic. Maybe a snapshot picture of SM? Otherwise all images ‘censored’. Why? The police ordered his body to be placed in the local temporary vault unlike SAH’s which was released for burial. Why? The local news fog may be lifting. What else were the Schutz’s worried about?
Tim v
This is definitely not sufficient for murder. Not in a family of such level. However, psychologically i beliwve that sylvain felt guilty when living with Claire’s money. The typical masculine response would be to make even more money soon and to pay back depths. Perhaps he promised something to calm down the family.
When you ever had depths and when you see no chance to repay, you would probably think about alternative methods to get money for feeling better. Perhaps investing the money into some business. Some guys go gambling with that money in the false hope to have luck once upon a time. And some guys would perhaps make contacts with drug dealers once they are desperate. This often is a matter of different stages. Depths, gambling, more depths, being desperate, hopeless, not brave enough to tell that all money was lost. Consequently you turn to the world of criminals for easy money. Laundering, smuggling aresome options.
This is just a psychgramm about how sylvain might have felt that mess and how he might have lived with it.
OFF-TOPIC
There seems to be a link between the 2 most recent massacres in the US.
James Holmes is the shooter for Aurora his father Robert Holmes the lead scientist for the credit score company FICO.
Adam Lanza is the shooter in Sandy Hook his father Peter Lanza is Vice-President and Tax Director at GE Financial.
Both fathers were to testify before the Senate in the bank LIBOR scandal:-
http://newsworldwide.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/breaking-news-ct-school-shooter-killer-link-to-libor-scandal/
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/adam-lanza-20-deeply-disturbed-kid-article-1.1220752
Hmmm.
Welder meets daughter of local business man.
Daughter with a bit of cash on the hip.
Welder already has a couple of children.
Daughter has welders third child.
Welder likes expensive racing bikes….and time off.
Have people hired shooters for less ?
There was a story at the start of this saying Mollier was kicked out of his cycle club. anyone remember that ?
Wonder why that was ? He liked racing up hills ?
@Manny
Its impossible to search tonight the net is just to slow but I have just found the EM interview that mentions “the bike in the corner of the parking” at about 00.37 to 00.57
I will carry on searching when I get a decent connection.
Does this video work for others I get this message
“this content doesn’t seem to be working please try again later “?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19522957
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19515940
“In particular, journalists were asking why it took the forensics team eight hours to reach the crime scene and what the murder motive could be.”
…
“Veteran journalist Alain Hamon, who specialises in policing and terrorism, argued the Annecy murder highlighted an organisational problem within the French national gendarmerie.
“I blame officials at the highest level,” he said. “There is a very important regional forensics team based in Lyon, one hour’s drive from Chevaline. Why wasn’t it send to at least carry out preliminary investigations?”
If this was all about SM then that might go some way to explaining why father and daughter had his blood on them. I still find it hard to believe but they could have stumbled upon the scene and attempted to help what looked like an injured cyclist?
So this family really did go on a last minute camping holiday. They changed sites because they didn’t like the amenities and nothing more. They went to take pics and just enjoy the countryside that afternoon and had the passports with them for safe keeping. Going with SM as the target would also mean you need to buy into the BM story. Why would he be anything but genuine and telling the truth if this was all due to an SM related family issue?
The police have really let this family down if that’s the case. Totally innocent family is gunned down in a scenario that had nothing to do with them yet we don’t see any current pics of them – no CCTV and details of how and when they traveled – I’d expect to see the whole thing played out in a Crime Stoppers reenactment as surely we’d want to find the people who did this to terrible deed?