The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
SAH had by my reckoning, based on newspaper reports as lways, at least SEVEN on-line computers in his house. I am not sure how many he took with him to France but his work colleague says even on holiday he was constantly on them. He may also have , as I think Felix or Pink suggested, gone off to a local internet cafe whilst at the camp site to explain his many reported trips to and fro. We are told he had TWO phones in his car, which Martinet I think stated was standard French SS practise (one exclusively for the handler). WBM had a mobile on him because he said he tried to use it. PD had a mobile because he said he used it (when still being unclear) We must assume SM had a mobile on him because his new partner Schulz said she tried to ring him. Was that phone still on him when he was discovered or taken away? We have not been told. Nor have we been given any details of the times, contacts and content that the mass of traffic must have revealed. It is simply not credible that the information already available from monitoring by Cheltenham or by the analysis of these devices and telephone companies have not given detailed and specific leads as to the purpose of the Martinet meeting or the identity of those behind the plot. That typically French shug from Maillaud is simply laughable. As concerned UK residents we want to be assured that the Surrey Police silence does not indicate complicity.
Perhaps off topic, but it was in here as a discussion regarding SAH’s job a while ago:
http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/28/darpa-builds-a-1-8-gigapixel-camera-that-can-spot-six-inch-targets-from-20000-feet/
Talk about surveillance and Orwell …..
From the MSN Time line @ http://news.uk.msn.com/world/french-alps-shooting-timeline/
“7.30pm:
The first reports emerge of the shootings, quoting a French official who said five people were dead. The official said the seven-year-old girl was found alive with bullet wounds by the cyclist, but later died.
8pm:
ME: Annecy prosecutor Eric Maillaud retracts his earlier statement that the seven-year-old girl was dead, and issues a correction saying that she is in a critical condition in intensive care in hospital in Grenoble.”
N.B. The statement that Zainab was dead was a full THREE HOURS after she had been found and removed by helicopter. This is not a mistake that could have been made by accident surely? Was the initial intention to protect her by claiming she had been killed. Or had the killers or spotters reported the fact, which then became the “official” script until someone spotted and corrected it?
“9.25pm:
Mr Maillaud says no weapon was found near the scene, which was like something seen in a film.”
ME: But no mention the part of a weapon (Luger PO6) later stated to be found. So at what point was this critical piece of evidence discovered? Even before the specialists arrived from Paris, even the dullest Gendarme would have surely checked the ground around even if banned from opening the car doors. I can’t now find the first ref. to the gun parts found. I think it may have been a month later. Yet despite having the Luger gun part from the first, the suggestion was made that it was a Czech Skorpion. Later it moved to the Luger on the back of ballistics and the distinguishing pistol grip mysteriously emerges?
6am:
“Mr Maillaud says the gun used in the killings was believed to be a semi-automatic pistol. He says “a very large number” of shots were fired and 15 bullet cartridges were found at the scene.” A day later this was up dated to 25 casings because ten were in or under the car. Yet on the 29th October NZ 3 News reports 22 were found.
(NZ 3 NEWS: Twenty-two 7.65mm cartridge cases were found at the scene. Police say the gun used in the killings was a pre-World War II Luger Po6 automatic pistol. Described as an “obsolete” weapon,
Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Police-suspect-lone-psychopath-in-French-Alps-killings/tabid/417/articleID/274492/Default.aspx#ixzz2JZDogwBo)
Then we have the official reporting of the injuries suffered which keep changing:
“2.50pm:
THREE of the four victims, including Mr al-Hilli, were shot in the middle of the head in an act of “gross savagery”, Mr Maillaud says.”
Daily beast 20th October reports: ” turning to al-Hilli, his wife, and mother-in-law, shooting them while they were in the car, and finishing each off with two shots to the forehead. Then, according to the investigators’ theory, the assassin went back to Mollier and fired the final two fatal shots into the cyclist’s cranium. They believe the assassin then searched the body and moved it closer to the car before escaping.”
We have the uncertainty over how many times any of the victims was shot. Zainab is repeatedly stated to have been shot in the shoulder later subject to doubt.
All inconsistencies that are difficult to explain. No one has tried or as far issued a definitive report on the injuries sustained. Apologies if much of this ground has been covered before.
@Lizzie007: Even the smallest pieces of the Chevaline puzzle don’t fit together. A witness sees a white Peugeot coming down the hill from the site of the massacre. She’s not sure if it’s a white Peugeot 206…like the one parked on her property on Google Streets.
A search for the mairie Chevaline shows the property of that same witness on Google Streets. Felix tells us Google Streets wasn’t showing the property for a while.
@Tim V: Maybe Sylvie’s bicycle morphed into a white Peugeot 206. Either that, or it’s in the garage with her rainbow-striped flying unicorn that normally transports her to and from the supermarket in Doussard. Maybe another bicycle in this drama was OTT, and thus it has been swept from the news stories which did, in fact, report it in early accounts of this trademark fairy tale. Does Sylvie have a motorbike in her garage, too? Everyone looks the same in a helmet.
BTW, did that man in the van look like a Balkan? That sure looks like a camper van, although the custom paint job would make it stick out like a sore thumb at a campground. Sylvie’s place would be a great spot for surveillance of anyone using the road up to the massacre site.
How did our Sylvie get that tank top from Florida?
@NR: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jan/28/satellite-photography-privacy
“Jill Smith, chief executive of DigitalGlobe, says: “Our satellite constellation has the capacity to collect 1m square kilometres of images of the Earth per day.” However, the US government restricts what is publicly available. “Someone could utilise it for unlawful purposes, but we believe the benefits of access to this imagery far outweigh any potential risk,” says Smith.”
And much more worth reading in that article.
@Tim V: It’s all perfectly clear if you sprinkle fairy dust on it. Or maybe wander into the woods in search of champignons magiques.
@Bluebird 3:59 pm.: That’s perfect for catching fairies, who are responsible for this entire tale. Fairies hide under champignons magiques.
@Tim V: You’re quite right. That is a man in the passenger seat of the van on Sylvie’s property. He appears to be reading a map. There seems to be another person in the driver’s seat, also reading a map.
I’m not sure what “Balkan” is supposed to mean. Someone with a swarthy complexion? A shadowy person? I do know that there’s a word for vans like that.
The house with the camper van ,car and van is not Sylvie Lecoeur
house its the one next door, look at the junction and there is a shed opposite the church and a graduated white wall and then sylvie’s house .
Q
31 Jan, 2013 – 1:48 am
Wouldn’t Sylvie Lecoeur recognize a white Peugeot 206 that was parked on her own driveway? Had she ever looked at that house on Google Streets, or was she a recent arrival?
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/2012/12/mastros-under-house-arrest-in-france.html?page=all
Another aside:
The Mastros had three dogs. No word on the breed(s).
The Mastros’ Range Rover was seized.
Marceau is five minutes by car from Chevaline.
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2019542345_mastro28m.html?syndication=rss
The Mastros lived at three different addresses in the area before they were caught. They were renting the last residence. They had packed up and were ready to move again when they were arrested. They communicated with the people upstairs, who were from New Zealand.
@Pink: Thank you. So Sylvie lives at the house next door to the “mairie Chevaline” on Google Maps? She lives in the one that cannot be accessed with the nosy little Google man? The one that shows white vehicles parked on it from the far-away view?
So she would have driven past the “mairie Chevaline” with its Peugeot 206 every day, and not have been able to recognize a Peugeot 206? When she rode her bicycle/car, passing by, with it parked there, she wouldn’t have recognized one?
Is the story Sylvie told the police the same as the one she told the media? Is she afraid of her neighbors? How is it that no one in that very small town notices anything? The mayor himself said that nothing happens there. How is it that they don’t notice when something does? Except for Sylvie, riding/driving home from the supermarket on her bicycle/car? Where are all the nosy neighbors peering out from behind curtains, as they did in Claygate? Code of silence?
Nothing is as it appears to be on first glance.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2012/11/19/french-police-seize-jewels-from-mastro.html?page=all
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology 2019631449_mastrohearingxml.html
More than a dozen suitcases filled with designer dresses, the Range Rover shipped from overseas: two elderly people might have required the services of a professional mover.
Cheltenham is the sister city of Annecy.
Michael and Linda Mastro skiied in the area before they decided to relocate there.
Tim V 31 Jan, 2013 – 12:37 pm
“I seem to have a dim memory that one early report suggested SL was nearly knocked off her “bike” which rather conflicts with car collison. Does anyone else have the same recollection?”
I have a dim memory that it was BM who said he was almost knocked off his bike by a vehicle speeding downhill. With all these vehicles, bikes and motorbikes speeding uphill and downhill it is lucky they didn’t crash into the builder “Laurent” and his helper who had the road blocked at the bottom for a time.
That road to Martinet must not have been at all heavily used if the builders felt free to block it for a while.
@ Q 31 Jan, 2013 – 5:45 pm
“More than a dozen suitcases filled with designer dresses,
Cheltenham is the sister city of Annecy.”
More designer dresses, and Cheltenham. The SISs are sending secret messages encoded in the styles and colors of expensive gowns and shoes. It would prevent small-players from faking messages as they could not afford 20,000 pounds per secret memo.
@ Q @ Tim V @ Bluebird:
Another name coincidence. In addition to the Philip Carey involved with Paul Marten(s) in Venice, Florida and Lynchburg, Virgina, US, doing aircraft maintenance, there is another in the UK doing similar work for United Arab Emirates Airlines. Note he misspells the name of his airline, the correct spelling is “Etihad Airways”.
Phil Carey | LinkedIn … Phil Carey, Tech Readiness PM at Eithad Airways. Manchester, United Kingdom.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/pacarey
@NR: What I found interesting about the other Philip Carey was the Royal Navy training, BAE flight training, submarines and weapons. And Florida, of course. Plus the quotes from Kurt Vonnegut and Ari O.
All very interesting points…. If the family was traveling for 3 weeks why didn’t anybody report seeing them? Well, maybe if they’d posted pictures of those killed, somebody may have come forward. That’s gotta be the strangest part–no pictures, no CCTV, no Facebook condolences from colleagues, no outcry from family over children being kept with strangers many months after the event?! My guess is the British govt told them it’s for the safety of the children.
Just can’t make the connection between SAH and SM? But there has to be one, in my opinion. Has to…
@bluebird
check Sylvie’s mole r. side of the nose.
This one says arrived 3rd Sep or possibly late August.
Had the al-Hilli family been in France long?
Exact details of the family’s stay have not been confirmed. According Le Dauphine Libere they arrived on 3 September and had been due to leave by the end of the week, reports. Other reports say they arrived at the end of August. They were staying in a caravan at a campsite, Le Solitaire du Lac, in St Jorioz, 8km from Chevaline.
13 September 2012
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19506889
……..
What exactly happens at a murder crime scene behind those taped-off barriers saying “Police. Do not cross this line”?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19513595
……..
28 September 2012
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19729566
The points about Zainab having died (how does someone make that mistake?), then not dead but critical, to being released several days later?
I keep going back to the comments by the cousins in Iraq. It’s not a stretch that he was against what Israel was doing (many people are) and I tend to believe them. Also the comment about his passwords and Skype account being stolen.. Tells me someone was monitoring his conversations.
Also from the cousins came the info pertaining to SAH’s house in Iraq and “using his connections” to get it back. That, along with citizenship around the time of the Iraq war, reports of surveillance of his home, leads me to believe the Brits recruited him to help with the war and provide information. It would make sense they’d want to recruit such people to provide information. And in exchange they gave him citizenship?
If his wife was really from Iran, and he really did visit there, he’d probably be outraged by the recent talk of war and want to try and help what he saw as a major injustice…The question is how? The silence from co-workers is telling.
I’d love to take a vacation to Chevaline and spend some time at local pubs chatting with the locals to see what they think…
French journalist Stéphane Bouchet, from Annecy newspaper Dauphiné Libéré told the BBC the family had been saying at the campsite since the end of August.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/06/french-alps-shooting-live
@Lizzie007: Could someone in Saad al-Hilli’s position at DMC or Surrey satellites have had access to images that TPTB did not want released to whoever had requested/paid for them? Those images that can spot small objects could have been useful.
Would those magic rocks be about six inches in diameter?
Q, it’s entirely possible that Saad had info from work he could pass along. Was he so mad about what Israel was doing that he would provide info to Iran? Seems awfully risky…Was his wife somehow involved? All possibilities and all good questions without definitive answers.
I’m wondering if Iran regrets saying they’d like to ‘wipe Israel off the map’? What a total S#%^ storm they brought upon themselves…
@ Pink 31 Jan, 2013 – 7:56 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19729566
The pic of SAH in the link above — wonder if that was provided by Gary Aked. One of only two we have of SAH. Looks as if SAH is sitting in a pub or cafe. Right above his head is a naked figurine — like in a Tiki or Caribbean pub — a fertility figure ? — plus three clumps of grapes or berries. Is it a clue to anything? Other clues in the lowlights and shadows?
Thought I’d spotted another anomaly with the flower pots at the front of the Claygate house which are not in many pics and in only one aerial shot. Realise they are memorial flowers and the police set them there. Or the SISs arranged another coded message, this time in blossoms — they’re fiendishly clever. 🙂
Can somebody look at aerial or street view pics of 26 Oaken Lane, Claygate, Surrey and see if there any recent ones and what state the property is in. When I tried a few days back, the views skipped over that address, but that might be me. The British press never gave the street number, but all the French press did. Is it the correct number.
Personally I don’t think SAH was up to anything to do with spying or espionage to do with his work I think if he was going to do something like that he would have been a lot more cautious about involving his family ,whatever he was doing if indeed he was doing anything he didn’t see it as risky .
The bits we have been told like him leaving the campsite several times for short periods and having meetings sounds like he had a plan for something though and its anyone’s guess what that might be, there might be an innocent explanation ,EM said they know his movements and it doesn’t seemed to have helped them solve this crime so far.
“I’m wondering if Iran regrets saying they’d like to ‘wipe Israel off the map’? What a total S#%^ storm they brought upon themselves”
Not sure that statement is correct…considering the absolute illegal activity Israel has involved itself in over the years.
In fact looking back in time, I note how the former South African regime eventually failed…and with the help of international “pressure”.
Funny how that isn’t happening with the Israeli regime !
Maybe the have “a big daft mate” !
That’ll probably be why.
Hi @ all,
when time allows it, I’m reading what’s up here.
As you’re still “on duty” and as far as my guts are telling me- this will continue- who knows – may be 2 years, 5 or even ten, as “M” had prognosed right from the beginning…. may be we’ll never know the truth.
Anyhow- we can’t do much …. just guessing and discussing and deciding what might be true – and what not. This might be some kind of ” a question of personal taste” …. as nobody knows what’s happenend and what the real truth is.
So- what I have to say to the latest discussion here is, that me, I personally think for the moment, it wasn’t al Hilli himself being involved.
It was one (or even both) of the ladies in the car.
Up to now we can’t even say for sure that it had been the grandmother …
Why I do believe this?
Because we’ve never been delivered pictures.
Nix, nada, nothing.
Just of Saad Al Hilli himself.
Nothing of the rest of the family nor of Sylvain Mollier….
What, if he (AH) was “just” the driver to get the “girlz” to this meeting?
What, if this “grandmother” wasn’t the real grandmother of these two little ones?
So far, anything is still possible and nothing is impossible.
To me, at least for sure: this had been no family dispute on either french side nor english side of the channel. Nor had it been the work of a crazy/random killer.
THEY must have quite a good reason for beeing so secretive…..
Good nite at all
I note also the early reports in the MSM….
Particularly Reuters (prob the “most” trustworthy of them !)
…that there was a rather odd thing happening.
A. They reported that EM states the killings where nothing to do with SM and…
B. It wasn’t a “professional” hitman at work.
This was BEFORE the police released the fact that there were 25 casings found.
That is quite something.
In fact that is more that “quite something”…and doubt it was “quick police work”.
I think Mollier and his background (either on it’s own or in relationship with SAH) needs a futher look.
I think that may hold the key.
Q
31 Jan, 2013 – 4:31 pm A little while back someone pasted a quote that “only states have access to surveillance cameras from space”. Arial photography was good in the second world war. Now it can be real time down to about a foot. An operation like this needed either agreed meeting time or indirect co ordination. There was only a small window of time for the “Go! Go! Go!” especially if the attack crew had to come right up the Combe first for which satellite oversight might easily have been used. The other point that was confirmed was that Israel have ready access to American systems. Even Maillaud raised the possibility early on – he said they were trying to find out if there was a satellite capability – but never repeated it as far as I know. Perhaps he was sent a word?
Then as to SL we arn’t quite sure the 206 in the yard is actually her car nor when that Google picture was taken. (Is this available clever geeks?) I would urge everyone to go in on that view and zoom in to the passenger seat and take a look at the shadow figure with dark glasses. Don’t say one of the spooks was caught quite by accident. The van is in a private parking space but it looks commercial with very distinctive logo/decoration on the side. The Americans go for big black vans with blacked out windows. Apparently the French choose Twingos. If your doing a stake out, commercial cover is helpful. Perhaps we could send a request for clarification to the town hall?