The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
@ Tim V:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2011/02/libyas_poison_gas_unaffected_b.html
Now as I recall from earlier in this thread, sarin is sometimes used as a rat poison. I seem to recall researching rat poison in relation to this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/supportservices/9246356/Rentokil-eyes-return-to-Libya-as-rats-thrive-in-war-torn-country.html
Q 5.53 – “Israeli intelligence may have used technology similar to the Suter airborne network attack system to neutralize Syrian radars. This would make it possible to feed enemy radar emitters with false targets, and even directly manipulate enemy sensors.[37][38] In May 2008, a report in IEEE Spectrum cited European sources claiming that the Syrian air defense network had been deactivated by a secret built-in kill switch activated by the Israelis.[39][40]”
On April 22, 2004, a massive explosion occurred on a North Korean freight train heading for the port of Namp’o. According to British intelligence writer Gordon Thomas, the Mossad had learned that dozens of Syrian nuclear technicians were in a compartment adjoining a sealed wagon. According to Thomas, the Syrians had arrived in North Korea to collect the fissionable material stored in the wagon. All of the technicians were killed in the train explosion. Their bodies were flown to Syria in lead-encased coffins aboard a Syrian military plane. A wide area around the explosion site was cordoned off for days as North Korean soldiers in anti-contamination suits collected wreckage and sprayed the area. Mossad analysts suspected they were trying to recover weapons-grade plutonium. Since the explosion, the Mossad tracked about a dozen trips by Syrian military officers and scientists to Pyongyang, where they met with high-ranking North Korean officials.[16]
On January 11, 2008, DigitalGlobe released a satellite photo showing that a building similar to the suspected target of the attack had been rebuilt in the same location.[73] However, an outside expert said that it was unlikely to be a reactor and could be cover for excavation of the old site.[74] On April 1, 2008 Asahi Shimbun reported that Ehud Olmert told Japanese Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda during a meeting on February 27 that the target of the strike was “nuclear-related facility that was under construction with know-how and assistance from North Korean technicians dispatched by Pyongyang.”[75] On April 24, 2008, the CIA released a video[76] and background briefing,[77] which it claims shows similarities between the North Korean nuclear reactor in Yongbyon and the one in Syria which was bombed by Israel.[78] According to a U.S. official, there did not appear to be any uranium at the reactor, and although it was almost completed, it could not have been declared operational without significant testing.[79] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard
Goes a long way to explaining N. Korea’s recent sabre rattling possibly.
Where is everyone and why did they all disappear at the same time. Do you know Q?
Operation Orchard[2][3] was an Israeli airstrike on a nuclear reactor[4] in the Deir ez-Zor region[5] of Syria carried out just after midnight (local time) on September 6, 2007. The White House and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) later confirmed that American intelligence had also indicated the site was a nuclear facility with a military purpose, though Syria denies this.[6][7]
Popular date apparently
Pre-dates Dubai:
“The Daily Telegraph, citing anonymous sources, reported that in December 2006, a top Syrian official arrived in London under a false name. The Mossad had detected a booking for the official in a London hotel, and dispatched at least ten undercover agents to London. The agents were split into three teams. One group was sent to Heathrow Airport to identify the official as he arrived, a second to book into his hotel, and a third to monitor his movements and visitors. Some of the operatives were from the Kidon Division, which specializes in assassinations, and the Negev Division, which specializes in breaking into homes, embassies, and hotel rooms to install bugging devices. On the first day of his visit, he visited the Syrian embassy and then went shopping. Kidon operatives closely followed him, while Negev operatives broke into his hotel room and found his laptop. A computer expert then installed software that allowed the Mossad to monitor his activities on the computer. When the computer material was examined at Mossad headquarters, officials found blueprints and hundreds of pictures of the Kibar facility in various stages of construction, and correspondence. One photograph showed North Korean nuclear official Chon Chibu meeting with Ibrahim Othman, Syria’s atomic energy agency director. Though the Mossad had originally planned to kill the official in London, it was decided to spare his life following the discovery.[17]” WIKI
via Q Source of rebels’ sarin?
“But some 10 metric tons of mustard sulfate and sarin gas precursor remain stockpiled in barrels at three locations in the Libyan desert south of Tripoli, where Moammar Gaddafi has holed up in a last-ditch fight to keep from being overthrown.” http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2011/02/libyas_poison_gas_unaffected_b.html
I wish I knew where everyone has gone, Tim.
back on the ben Zygier case, Borman has a new documentary that relies heavily on the disclosures in der spiegel earlier this year.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-07/zygier-sabotaged-mission-repatriate-israeli-remains-prisoner-x/4675556
For the record, no, I don’t believe that recovering some dead israeli soldiers and compromising a few lower level mossad assets in Lebanon are the reason for disappearing Zygier and making sure he does not emerge alive. What Zygier did is what Israel’s mossad does not want us to know. This documentary tracks a bot too suspiciously closely with the accounts favored by the blogger Yehuda Bello, who I brought in here earlier.
Following on suggestions I have seen made in Silverstein’s blog, i am rather inclined to believe that what Zygier compromised is the involvement of Israel in Hariri’s murder. Hezbollah must be in possession of enough proof to that effect now that the “UN investigation” has effectively been squelched (haven’t heard much about it lately, has anyone?). In addition, Zygier’s identity, once known to Iran/Hezbollah, no doubt compromised several front companies, including the one in Milano, but not limited to it. As a result many a planned sabotage acts against Iran by Mossad may have been effectively disabled. In any case, I am pretty confident that ben Zygier was about something very big – a huge israeli intelligence failure.
BTW, I did not disappear for too long this time, though i do wonder where has NR gone to. Had posed a question/request to him/her earlier related to MZT and have not heard back since. I miss NR’s unique brand of humor too.
Also, I wish james did not throw his cold water bucket on the Boston speculations. One way or another, everything is connected: whether Chevaline to Zygier or Boston to the current maneuvring on Syria. the nature of the connections is not necessarily obvious and certainly not always direct. Sometimes the connections are political, other times military, and still other times – economic. Personally I kind of liked the far ranging speculations on this forum, even if some of it looked tangential. what is a tangent one day can turn out to have direct relevance later. At times, there is nothing new to add on Chevaline other than retread ground already covered. That’s just the way it is with cases where the PTBs don’t wish the public to know which way was up.
From above. “Though the Mossad had originally planned to kill the official in London, it was decided to spare his life following the discovery.[17]” WIKI” The question arises who was he? Was what was on his computer enough to persuade him to act for the Israeli’s?
Then there is the issue of Kidon groups operating in London intent on murder of a foreign national as recently as 2006. Pretty dramatic revelation actually. It proves, if proof were necessary, (Bull et al) that Israeli assassination teams are operating on European territory. Were there British Government protests?
This was 16 years after Gerald Bull (One account states he was shot five times in the head and back at point blank range while approaching the door of his apartment in Brussels.[25] Another account states he was shot by a three-man team on March 20, 1990, when he answered the doorbell.[4]) WIKI
Four years before Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh in 2010, again with teams well drilled in a sophisticated plan. Rafic Hariri was blown up (with 21 others) on St Valentine’s Day 2005 – the year before the London operation at which time Hezbollah had been fully infiltrated by Israeli Intelligence. These are only a few examples.
The proof of “previous” and proven Modus operandi, puts Israel in the frame for Chevaline. To such an extent I would say the onus of proof is reversed. It is for Israel to prove they were NOT involved in the killing. France and Britain must know the movement of suspect teams probably in and out of their respective territories. I can’t see the British assisting on this one.(That’s not to say it is beyond reproach. Did they put the Al Hilli’s in danger? Did they fail to properly assess the risks? Did they provide inadequate protection? After all they clearly had a team at the ready to get a platoon of “Military Types” there within hours)
I can’t be so sure of the French, indeed all the indicators point in the opposite direction.
Going back to the discussion on time-line I thought James had a valid point on average speed of the two cyclists. I too thought, even given the up-hill climb, the average speed for two super fit cyclists calculated by dividing 3 kilometres by half an hour was a bit slow (I make that as 6 kph. or 2.73 mph. If SM went past on his new racing bike 50% faster he would be travelling at 9 kph or 5.59 mph.)
So I re-calculated on the basis that WBM was referring to the section from Cheveline village itself – i.e. a third further or 4 kilometres. This provides a more realistic average speed which I calculate at about 8 kph or 4.97 mph and 12 kph or 7.45 mph respectively.
The trouble is it changes slightly all the other calculations. For example “one kilometre up the Combe” now becomes “half way” and if it is, as the police say at 2.20, and sticking to half an hour journey time, it would make 15 minutes either side. Namely Chevaline start at 3.05 and Martinet finish at 3.35, both marginally earlier you will notice.
The implications of this, given the earlier logic, of putting SAH’s BMW prior to 3 pm, making Laurent Fillion-Robin’s testimony even more credible. The arrival time at Martinet also fits, being only five minutes after the reported gun shots at 3.30 and the physical, still conscious state of Zainab. It also reinforces the view that WBM could not possibly have missed the gun shots or indeed the murders!
As to SM’s arrival time, if we stick to this new estimated average speed of 12 kph and assume he passed WBM (if he did) at the Combe entrance sign, which from the above assumptions would have been seven and a half minutes before 2.20 (being a quarter of the way) at 12 mph the remaining 3 K would have been covered in a quarter of an hour giving an arrival time at Martinet of 3.28 pm. If he had passed WBM before or after the entrance sign, or if their speed differential was less or more, he would arrived at Martinet proportionately later or earlier.
So on this basis he arrives at or about 3.30 – the same time as shots are heard supporting the view that almost immediately on arrival the attack was initiated and that it awaited his arrival as he was the first shot.
Now as to the passing BMW X5 recently appealed for, the previous calculation still applies. If as suggested by police, it passed WBM at 3.20 with only two Kilometres to travel, if it was going at a conservative 60 kph (just over 37mph) it would have arrived at Martinet in two minutes i.e. 3.22 or certainly by 3.25.
This would suggest the BMW x5 passed SM perhaps only five minute before the latter arrived. Had it held back a bit on seeing Mollier ahead, it might even have arrived seconds after him. The timing is so fine that it is incomprehensible that, if as described, the occupants of the BMW X5 were not in some way implicated in the killings.
Correction “WBM could not possibly have missed the gun shots or indeed the murders!” should state “murderers”. Apologies.
Thank you for mentioning Boston again, Marlin. I had wanted to mention another thing about the mysterious Gilberto Junior. Aside from the previous reviews of his business, I found this one:
https://plus.google.com/100584411826843817974/about?gl=ca&hl=en
So, two years ago someone accused him of operating what seems to be a brazenly out-in-the-open chop shop. A new business opened in its place about a year ago, and the mysterious Junior is still hanging around, waiting for reporters, claiming he had the Tsarnaevs as customers, even though his old business shut down. That’s pretty incredible. What’s even more incredible is his uncanny resemblance to a California swim coach, sans hair, tattoos and silver (same Brazilian accent, though).
BTW, in my further reading on sarin, I learned that the experiments in the 1960s with releasing toxins into the air and relying on weather to carry them were proven not to be nearly as effective or lethal as the explosive release technique.
Another thing about Boston. Look at the key players, and the Russian angle. Who are Syria’s allies?
Tim V – thanks for the careful elaboration on the time line, this time with the assumption of the faster biking rate. I think that since NR has, for the moment (let’s hope) become scarce, maybe I’ll mozy along myself to MZT and drop your suggested time lines in their bucket (unless you want to do it yourself?). i am kind of interested to see what some of their own crime solving crew will have to say in response and whether lans or peter or max can find any holes in it I think that a good critique is always welcome and I can’t provide it since you and I have basically agreed on the fundamentals of this case for some time now.
As I mentioned above, one of the differences between this forum and MZT is that over there they seem to place greater credence in whatever the french police are letting out (even while skewering the hapless EM). Whereas here, on CM, we are perfectly willing to call the 3:15PM photo at Arnaud a dud, or a smoke screen (all the more so since it wasn’t released with the pathetic excuse of “too morbid”).
That being said, I’ll bring up a question we struggled with before – why was it so important for the french (assuming that a cover-up it was) to fix SAH’s arrival at a later time? may be inview of the new handle on the timeline of all the parties – as you suggested – we could revisit this question? after all, if the photo time is glaringly out of place, there had to be a reason for bringing it up. I don’t feel that we have a satisfactory answer to that yet. more ideas?
Thanks for that one Marlin. Your thoughtful observations are always insightful. Of course feel free to post my ramblings about the time line on MZT. I’d welcome feedback.
Like you I think all the evidence points to the French dissembling about the 3.15 photograph which alone is incriminating. As I have tried to demonstrate we now have TWO distinct issues on which the British have contradicted them: 1. on the first 3.48 call and 2. the BMWX5.
This speaks to the relationship as much as the crime.
As to why? To a certain extent it self explanatory. The French used the photo to make the case that the family appeared happy which they claimed proved there was nothing untoward. This was used to build the case for an unpremeditated, unplanned event. It fits their favoured (and in my opinion ridiculous) position that this was a lone madman.
It also has the effect of undermining the only known witness account of the time of their arrival.
It would also require the arrival time to be much later, in fact with no time to park up. Interestingly the French reported Zainab saying “the shooting started as soon as they arrived” which would require a late arrival.
That also must be incorrect. Either her memory had to be inaccurate or (more likely) she was misquoted.
Another possible influencing factor relates to the French story that the vehicle seen by WBM was a forestry vehicle. If SAH arrived before three and parked up for half an hour, it first indicates strongly that he was waiting for someone (a rendezvous!) (and Maillaud clearly tried hard to persuade there was no meeting and specifically with SM) and the forestry vehicle must have driven past them which itself would lead to many questions.
There could be other reasons but hopefully these are enough to be going on with.
Incidentally did you notice the almost identical bullet wounds on Bull and Mollier?
Hardly the most reliable witness Q
9 May, 2013 – 7:44 pm!!!
Out of interest I have checked the conversion figures for kph to mph.
Can you explain how having increased the kph by 50% from 6 – 9 increases the mph from 2.73 mph to 5.59 mph which is a bigger proportional increase? Where have I gone wrong?
I never was much good at arithmetic.
@marlin
Re the 3:15 photo timestamp – I have huge doubts about its accuracy and wondered whether it was in fact a smokescreen set by Saad himself (i.e. adjust system clock – take photo – adjust clock) as an alibi for a meeting. The photo was taken on Ikbal’s phone though, so not sure how likely that is.
@Tim V
Re the 3:48 call – the Sapeurs-Pompiers (sic) claimed in a report that they had heard of “murderous activity” over “radionet”. I guess that this is the French equivalent of TETRA but unfortunately I cannot find anything on the web re radionet that makes sense in this context (the term seems to be used about net radio generically and in station names etc.)
It occured to me that a TETRA equivalent may be used by the ONF and/or police or even security services. Of course it could be some kind of translation artefact. Any ideas?
Good (in Parts?) suggestions/observations, Good In Parts
10 May, 2013 – 12:19 am. Effectively, I think we have shown that the weight of evidence is against the photograph timed (we are told) at 3.15 being reliable. It has to be fake one way or another. Apart from the fact that we have never seen the photograph itself, the excuse for which given by Maillaud predictably laughable and suspicious, additional inference was placed on it by him. This eagerness to validate it and a lack of typical police scepticism, points I believe to the French authorities being involved.
However if the photo was not manipulated or misinterpreted by police there must be some other explanation. The photo itself could be genuine with an incorrect time/date on it or your original idea might apply if SAH organised it to provide evidential alibi as to his location at 3.15. That appears to me to be a reasonable possibility.
As to your reference to ” the Sapeurs-Pompiers (sic) claimed in a report that they had heard of “murderous activity” over “radionet”” it is something I drew attention to many months ago. The French story about the first call was a lie and must to have been known as such.
Even if the changed story that Philippe Didierjean made the first call was true (which the timeline contradicts) a Frenchman could not possibly have been confused with a basic French-speaking Englishman. As with the photograph, the initial 3.48 call has never been made public which might have quickly settled the issue.
I agree the above quote is strange. They don’t say they were specifically activated by their controllers. Rather they give the impression they overheard it inadvertently going some way to explaining why unarmed emergency workers akin to our Fire Brigades, arrived at a major shooting incident, with no guarantee the shooter was not still in the vicinity, first.
I have floated the question in the past as to the possibility that they actually overheard radio communication between the killers and their controllers and I have seen nothing to date that would necessarily exclude that possibility. Misinformation compounded by secrecy does not inspire confidencein the French investigation I am afraid.
In a complaint on Thursday, the U.S. Justice Department accused eight men of forming the New York-based cell of the organization, and said seven of them have been arrested. The eighth, allegedly a leader of the cell, was reported to have been murdered in the Dominican Republic on April 27.
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#story/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-cybercrimebre9480pz-20130509/
I think there could also be a pure criminal reason. Such things require computer experts and probably a year of preparation and insider knowledge.
And there were killed people within that bank hacker gang. We should know names, at least we should find out the name of that killed gang member. Maybe we find connections to Arab clans. The roots must be in the UAE.
related or no?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/friend-of-murdered-businessman-michael-mcgurk-embroiled-in-high-society-fraud-case/story-fncynkc6-1226639995037
@ Tim: http://www.cdrex.com/jenny-samantha-el-hilli/1504442.html
Jenny Samantha El-hilli – Other results shows a Zaid Hilli. Did Zaid ever go by “Zaid Hilli”?
Zaid Hilli’s page takes us here, to Shtech, and one Saad Hilli:
http://www.cdrex.com/zaid-hilli/2280224.html
“The isaGila is more commonly known as the knobkerrie – a heavy stick with a fist sized end used as a club. It was also used as a throwing weapon when hunting.”
From: http://zulu-culture.co.za/combat_zulu_culture.php
Walk lightly and carry a big stick? Mrs. El-hilli’s company has a most unusual name.
Where’s Bluebird to help with the Hilli/El-Hilli/Al-Hilli name game?
More on Jenny Samantha El-Hilli:
https://www.duedil.com/director/915271961/jenny-samantha-el-hilli
http://companycheck.co.uk/company/05208592
Address is in Surrey.
This Jenny El-Hilli has listed her citizenship as “English”, rather than “Australian” like the other one, although they were both born in the same year, 1975.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/friend-of-murdered-businessman-michael-mcgurk-embroiled-in-high-society-fraud-case/story-fncynkc6-1226639995037
It appears spelling of names is a moveable feast in al/el, Saad/Zaid, British/Australian, Hilli, circles. Yes indeed where is BB to clarify the links? Big jack-pot to be won by the seem of things.
“Nearly eight months after the start of the investigation, the police said in a statement that it seeks to enter into contact with “the owner of a 4 × 4, right-hand drive, possibly a BMW X5 color gray (or any dark color that can be likened ) was seen traveling along the Combe d’Ire ” in Chevaline September 5, 2012, the day of the crime, “between 15 and 15 h 15 h 30” .
Investigators of the research section of Chambéry appeal to anyone who knows the individuals who circulated that vehicle, “in Annecy basin, previous or following the date of the crime days” , the statement of gendarmerie. “occupants of the vehicle are sought as witnesses, they are not necessarily the perpetrators of the crime” , said an officer of the gendarmerie.” http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/04/30/tuerie-de-chevaline-les-enqueteurs-lancent-un-appel-a-temoins_3168510_3224.html
NB. The variation of the French account of the time. The British said “about 3.20 pm” the French say “between 3.15 and 3.30 pm”. The British are being marginally more precise. Whether this is significant is debatable but one might have expected on a simultaneous announcement in a joint investigation they might have agreed on its content first.
The distinction between “person of interest” and “suspect” is a fine line. Sometimes a POI is the suspect, which is possibly why no one is stepping forward, if indeed such a person exists.
While going over some old material, I found a blog where someone referred to Chevaline conspiracy theories. The blogger said that in CT, everything falls neatly into place. Therefore this discussion is not a conspiracy theory, because nothing has fallen neatly into place. Of course, it’s hard for things to fall into place when the “facts” keep changing.