The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
That’s quite interesting BB, but why would Zaid…an accountant at a golf club be calling them, a friend of the family, especially as sister in law was calling too ?
So many links to these people.
I didn’t see this yesterday, nice house Zaid has, in far better nick that Claygate;
‘In an exclusive interview with the Mail, Zaid said he loved his brother and did not ‘know how he could have been killed in this terrible way’.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347251/Zaid-Al-Hilli-Brother-Alps-massacre-victim-arrested-shooting.html#ixzz2XDqTJt6v
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9964128/Armed-guard-on-Alp-victims-brother-Zaid-Al-Hilli.html
This is from 10 weeks ago. It would rather support and suggest Katie’s theory of a security arrest.
That has to be right BB, note it was the police who installed the panic button.
Something tells me Zaid possibly knows who ‘could’ be behind the murders & now the killers or the organisers of the killing realises he’s a danger to them.
It would be harder to bump Zaid off, a regular guy with a steady job,not travelling like Saad.
This all has to be about knowledge , a cover up for someone ……….big !
Right from the start the French have wanted to pin this on Zaid, he’s becoming the fall guy.
I think that Zaid lives in a flat at that address. It’s not one big house.
The arrest would appear to be for failing to attend a police interview (requested by the French police).
It’s unclear if he’ll be questioned in the U.K. or in France.
I guess then he’ll have to be released or charged.
Although I have no idea what they do in France. Eric seemed to indicate they do prefer the French way of “questioning” ! I’ve no idea what he mant by that. Time will tell.
His alleged calls made by him to “Romania” is a mystery.
The alleged calls from Mr’s Al Hilli’s sister….are unconfirmed.
What is odd is that Eric is reported as saying “the family dispute is so colossal” it would take investigators two years to go through the legal papers, in English, Arabic, Spanish and Swedish.
I assume the latter is “paraphrasing” Eric.
Why would an Iraqi born, U.K. citizen have legal papers in Swedish ?
English I get. Arabic I get. Spanish I get. But what was the Al Hilli connection to Sweden in respect of a family dispute between the two “Al Hilli” brothers ?
Opps ! Link below.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347933/Zaid-Al-Hilli-Brother-Alps-massacre-victim-ignored-order-travel-France-questioning.html
Zaid isnt stupid.
Every sane citizen with IQ > 50 and a little bit money would have taken constant advice of a good lawyer if he were Zaid. I am 100% sure that Zaid has a good lawyer and that he contacts him regularly.
When Zaid got the date of the hearing with French police, he would have been clever enough asking his lawyer for advice. Without any doubts, the lawyer told him to do what he had done, not going to France. Knowing ofcourse that then the British had an excuse to arrest Zaid. But why didnt he go to France?
There are two options:
1. Zaid is in a dangerous situation as much as his brother had been and he fears that he would get killed in France, too. If so, the decision not to go was a wise one. The imminent danger could be supported with the matter of fact that he got a security guard for his flat.
2. Zaid expected to be arrested in France. That would be horror for a UK citizen with costs for french lawyers, translations and a foreign law system he does not know. Better being arrested at home than in France.
Of course the French could ask the British to extradict Zaid to France. However, given that it is true that Zaid is a MI6 asset, the British then will find ways to avoid an extradiction to france.
Possibly (or most likely) the arrest was deliberate tactics by his lawyer. This will make it impossible for the french to get hold on Zaid, they cant even abduct him any more and the british are in control of what he is saying (or revealing) regarding secrets of national security.
This was a plot with his lawyer and probably british gov being involved in the planning for sure. 8 months after such an event, a possible suspect must be prepared from head to toe by his lawyer and without doubts, Zaid was well prepared.
James
The swedish papers will likely belong to the al saffar and the al allaf family, although we have a huge group of al hillis in sweden, too. They could easily be cousins of Saad.
“Jamie” @ James
24 Jun, 2013 – 11:31 pm – the arrest was made under English criminal law and so English procedures including PACE will apply. Only if France makes a European Warrant request do I assume he would be transferred to French jurisdiction and procedures. The point I raised however was slightly different namely how starting proceedings here would take precedence over removal to France. As far as I am aware the fact that the crime was committed in France is no impediment to a prosecution in the British courts.
WIKIPEDIA has the following on the topic: “Conspiracy to murder is an offence by virtue of section 1(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1977.
Section 1(4) of the Criminal Law Act 1977 formerly provided that it was immaterial that the murder in question would not be triable in England and Wales if committed in accordance with the intention of the parties to the agreement.”
This is the CPS take on it @ http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/soliciting_to_murder/
Conspiracy to Murder, Soliciting to Murder
Date produced: January 2012 Just two cases to illustrate how the courts have interpreted and resultant sentences handed down (on appeal)
R v Rai [2006] 2 Cr. App. R. (S.) 13.
Guilty pleas to three counts of soliciting to murder three persons. The appellant acted as a negotiator between the person who wished the murders to be committed and a prospective hit man. The Court noted a wide range of sentences between 6 to 12 years imprisonment. It observed that since Attorney-General’s Ref 43 of 1996 there had been much higher sentences. Sentence reduced to eight years imprisonment.
R v McNee, Russell and Gunn [2008] 1 Cr. App. R. (S.) 24.
Convictions for conspiracy to murder. Appeals against life sentences with minimum terms between 35 years and 25 years. G masterminded the operation. M and R were involved from the outset reconnoitring and being lookouts on the day of the killings by unknown gunmen. Held that there were good grounds for concluding that they presented a continuing risk of danger such as to warrant indeterminate sentences, and that the judge had properly considered the starting points in Sch.21 to the 2003 Ac. Sentences upheld.
Bluebird
25 Jun, 2013 – 12:22 am you have overlooked a third option that I have raised (whether true or not it should be considered) that the circumstances of the arrest (apparently without substantive grounds) has been orchestrated to frustrate other procedures and access.
Good question Good In Parts
25 Jun, 2013 – 3:01 am. the answer to which is more of the same I’m thinking. And how does the statement of a French Prosecutor, to the effect that Zaid would have been arrested if he had had his way (i.e. “I think he’s guilty”) play with the British concept of “Innocent until PROVED guilty” and the right of everyone to a fair trial free of influencing bias?
Blue…
We are led to believe the “dispute” is between the two brothers.
English speaking and Arabic speaking Iraqi born U.K. citizens.
Of course there is the apartment in Spain…. but Swedish legal papers !
Whilst clearly we know there is a Swedish connection via the wife of Sa’ad to her mother, what do the Swedes have to do with the “family dispute” between the two brothers ?
Once again I doubt the “full story” is being told.
Well, we’re closing in on 7.30pm (London) so I’ll guess we’ll find out some more soon.
Will he be released, charged (charged and placed on remand, charged and bailed) …..or an extension applied for ?
I would suspect that if no further arrests have been made (a case like this would usually mean “others” are involved and would therefore needed to be “rounded up” quickly and evidence gathered), ZAH would be released.
When Marlin talks of The Game in which “next the British have to do something” and “now the French team need to make their move” …..is this part of that “game” ?
James
There could have been swedish contracts between Saad and Iqbal or between Kadhim and Abdulamir al Saffar (father of the bride). We dont know.
Also, isnt it usual in Arab families that the family of the bride is paying some kind of fee/price to the father/family of her husband?
Perhaps there was a contract that some kind of payment was given to Kadhim for his son Saad by al Saffars. Perhaps those were the 800k in geneve? I am sure that mrs. Al Allaf must have been upset with the situation that zaid would get hand on “their” money.
This is just a theory, but all those documents might have been in Arab and swedish language when there was a swedish lawyer involved.
Blue.
It could relate to a dowry….but would that be in Swedish ?
It could relate to Mrs Al Hilli’s brother. There would need to be legal papers for that issue. That would be in Swedish.
Seems odd Eric gave it a mention though.
Don’t you think the Swedish legal papers could be for Igbal to inherit Saad’s part of the inheritance should he die before her, just as a belt & braces exercise rather than trust the executers of a will. ?
A small point continues to bother me. The al-Hillis owned a “poultry farm” or ordinary poultry farm in Iraq, as well as a gypsum factory. Gypsum is located in Kurdish territory, so if it was a mine rather than a factory, it was likely located in Kurd turf.
Prior to Saddam and the Gulf War, would ownership of land in Iraq have entitled the land owner to mineral rights? Could this have been a conflict between Muslim law and Iraq law? If the al-Hilli land also had oil under its surface, this would have been motivation for the al-Hillis to try to get it back. This kind of dispute also could have put the family on the wrong side of Saddam’s regime.
The opening of a Romanian consular office in Kurdistan in November 2012 has sparked this line of enquiry, given the “Balkan man” at the campground and the phone calls to Romania.
http://dfr.krg.org/a/d.aspx?l=12&a=42095
Another thing I discovered: Under Muslim law, a father can appoint a guardian for a child. The mother’s opinion or legal consent for such an appointment is not required. If the father dies, and the mother of the children is alive and does not approve of this appointment, her opinion does not matter and has no legal bearing.
@ Katie 9:13 a.m.: I thought Edward Snowden made it pretty clear that any call can be monitored, whether VOIP, mobile phone, fibre optic land line, etc. The only issue is getting someone other than that citizen’s own country to do the monitoring.
James
Of a dowry was written in sweden by a swedish lawyer then it was likely translated into arab.
Therefore there could have been two versions of the same documents. The swedish original version and the arab translation (for kadhim’s family). It isnt unlikely that saad/iqbal had both versions. I still believe that the swedish documents are related to iqbal’s wedding. Of course there could be inheritance documents regarding iqbal’s father and mrs allaf, too, and those will be in swedish.
Still, if Zaid was going to access iqbal’s dowry, then of course i see a good reason for mrs. Al allaf for travelling to the geneve bank.
Q.
Exactly, all the more reason I think those Rumanian calls are a red herring. If they really didn’t know who they were to why have they not traced them before now when they were known about months ago ?
Blue…
The dowry, if there was one, would have been paid at the time of the wedding.
I’m not sure that it is an actual “legal” payment, more a “traditional” type affair.
As for the Romanian phone calls. Rather than “James Bond” type spying wouldn’t it be easier just to look at the archived itemized bill held by BT (or who else provided the landline service). They did say “calls made from Zaid’s house”.
But that in itself is rather odd. Why use a landline to call when you can Skype ? Especially if your calling your “hitman” !
Surely cheaper…and rather more “untraceable” to use Skype…. unless they have “pulled them” via whatever they use these days and would rather not admit to doing that !
Each “development” throws up more questions than answers….again !
James
In shia law a dowry is probably kind of a legal affair. I dont know. I am no muslim.
This was just one of the many possibilities about why there could be swedish documents.
James
Sharia law seems to require some kind of contract for a dowry. Thus the swedish documents? I was totally wrong in that i did believe that the father of the bride had to pay. In sharia it is in fact Saad who would have had to pay for Iqbal. However, he does not have to pay immediately but the wife could request the payment at a later time if she wishes (or divorces).
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/court-backs-sharia-dowry-after-divorce-20120731-23c80.html
And:
3. Dowry One of the essential elements of a nikah contract is the dowry. The dowry is to be paid by the husband to the wife either at the time of the nikah and/or at a specified time after the nikah to be determined by the spouses, e.g. upon divorce. The terms of the dowry are included in the nikahcontract. Following marital breakdown, the wife may want to claim any unpaid dowry. The Sharia councils do not have jurisdiction to rule upon or enforce dowry payments, thus the wife will seek legal redress through the English civil courts. If the parties have entered into a civil marriage, the wife may request the English civil courts to award her her dowry in ancillary relief proceedings. Case law indicates that dowry payments will be taken into account in such proceedings in accordance with S 25 MCA 1973 to ensure that fairness and justice are upheld to both parties, particularly where cultural or religious beliefs advocate the importance of dowries (see NA v MOT [2004] EWHC 471 (Fam) [2004], All ER (D) 238, Otobo v Otobo [2002] EWCA Civ 949, Uddin v Choudhury & Ors [2009] EWCA Civ 1205).This is not the only remedy available for wives who wish to obtain their dowry. Those who are unsuccessful in claiming their dowry amount in ancillary relief proceedings and others who did not enter into a civil marriage have the option to issue a claim against their husbands for breach of contract if their they refuse to honour the (nikah) contract and pay the contractually agreed dowry amount. The first significant dowry case in English contract law was Shahnaz v Rizwan[1965] 1 QB 390. The plaintiff claimed a payment of £1,400 as the sterling equivalent of the deferred dower specified in an Islamic marriage contract, payable on the dissolution of the marriage, which occurred when the husband divorced the plaintiff by talaq. Winn J upheld the plaintiff’s claim on the ground that it was based on a recognised contractual obligation, enforceable under Islamic law by ordinary civil action (aside from matrimonial proceedings) and that there was no reason why the same remedy should not be afforded here.
@ Bluebird: Why was Iqbal’s mother in the vehicle? Why was she killed? The issue of sharia in Sweden is something to consider with regard to an estate.
Why spare the children? Does this come down to guardianship, and the fate of any money in one’s estate being accessible to a guardian only if the children are alive?
Can guardians change land titles out of the names of those whose care they are entrusted with, or must property remain in trust for them until they reach legal age? It’s very confusing in such matters when several countries are involved, and with Muslim law further complicating these issues.
Estate law is further complicated by the differences between Shia and Sunni jurisprudence:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wQq8QRwDKHsJ:www.forsters.co.uk/cmsfiles/pdf/NwsltMar09_Islamic%2520Wills_ZAMK_FINAL.pdf+forsters+where+there's+a+will+there's+a+way&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
Blue….
Re your posts.
….and the postman had only seen Sa’ad !
Who then then airline’d in from Sweden ? Both mother and daughter ?
Was it not that important that the youngest girl started at a U.K. school ?
All these “legal” docs…and a very stressed out Sa’ad.
Divorce ?
James
I thought about a possible divorce long ago.
When would the school have started in sweden?
Imagine: saad wants to go back to iraq. Iqbal doesnt. She prefers to live in sweden with her children. They did not bother about school in the uk? Perhaps because the kids were already scheduled for school in sweden? Another set of swedish documents ….
How do they finance divorce? With the money from geneve? Iqbal and her mother signing access documents at the geneve bank with saad’s authority? All three smiling happy afterwards in a picture (due to eric)?
I dont know but i had thought about such a possibility.
Blue…
I have no idea. BUT it is a possible. It fits with events.
Would that lead to the “inheritance” dispute ? Could do.
Sa’ad married late. Met the wrong one. And now has to pay for it.
If that went on at all.
But murder ?
It still doesn’t quite “hit the nail on the head”.
How much would the settlement be ? How would that be calculated ?
There has to be “something” else here.
Was the cash not “theirs” in the first place…and a “dip into the till” was not a thing that was going to be accepted ?
“Iqbal and her mother signing access documents at the geneve bank”
The Paybook system ? That works like that.
There are no cheques or transfers. You have to turn up.
It’s an old system, but works.
If you and I did business. I would pay in, you would hold the passbook….but its my signature and ID.
You control the “cash” (the passbook). But I have the access (but not without the passbook). Once all is agreed. Both parties “meet”.
Its more private than “Swiss Accounts”. And more secure. And still used today. That’s why Geneve has a busy FBO at the airport !
Nearly forgot. It’s past 7.30pm London. Any news ?
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/topstories/10504960.Brother_of_Saad_Al_Hilli_released_on_bail/?ref=nt
Released on bail.
Is that then “charged and released” ?
Or “arrest bail”
How does it work ?
And a raid on the golf club…where he worked ???
“French prosecutor Eric Maillaud said the arrest on Monday had coincided with a raid on the golf club Mr Al-Hilli worked for.
A neighbour said he worked as an accountant at Burhill Golf Club in Hersham, part of the Burhill Group based in Burhill Park.
Burhill Golf Club declined to comment on if a raid had taken place and if Zaid Al-Hilli had worked there”.
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/topstories/10504960.Brother_of_Saad_Al_Hilli_released_on_bail/?ref=nt
James
Sorry Off topic (!!) – but urgent
And it needs your help.
Was there bad weather in reykjavik this morning?
Flight DY 1170 left Oslo this morning scheduled for arrival in Reykjavik 10:20 am.
Unfortunately that plane never arrived in Reykjavik.
Normally this status points to bad weather and a different yet unknown airport. Tgat isnt unlikely. Though it is neither unlikely that Snowden was on board. Where is that plane? Could you help pls? Do you have other database access?
Surrey Police:
“Further to the media release issued yesterday on behalf of the Joint Investigation Team – the 54-year-old man who was arrested yesterday on suspicion of conspiracy to murder has tonight (Tuesday, 25 June) been released on bail until July 31 pending further enquiries.”
http://www.surrey.police.uk/news/news-stories/full-news-story/article/5207/update-man-arrested-in-connection-with-annecy-murder-investigation-released-on