The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
DDT – won’t you tell me who you are? I promise not to tell anyone (other than 100 of my closest and dearest friends…).
Hey, we are happy campers here, right Pink? Mochyn69? james the delphi oracle (or was it a sphinx?), Q™, NR™, Tim V™, GIP, bleb and of course blue™bird and straw44™ (not to be confused with straw33berry).
For what it’s worth, i really liked some of the commenters on MZT – whether agreed or not with their take. Creativity is not something to be taken lightly, nor mirth be despised. To me, powers of analysis are always impressive, no matter if conclusions veer off the Combe to Cherel.
And at the end of the day, it’s good to remember we are all just human (probably). Which means we are mortal, in the face of which little inter, and intra-blog altercations mean nothing at all.
I’ll set up a temp e mail, just in case….
Marlin…
You is bad !
Nah !
They have gone “closed network”. The book maybe.
Tim V 10:56PM – you beat to it! again!
I was just going to put up a post on MZT closure (hopefully temporary) possibly being the French move I expected (remember me mentioning the ball was in their court/ brits got two points – 1 for arresting zaid then letting him out (good trick, that), and one for the uncropped DM photo popping up). Of course, were that the case there are all kind of implications.
Tim V, shouldn’t we consider copyrighting our inter-agency “game”? I mean, as best I could tell, it IS original and does seem to follow certain rules….actually, now that I think of it, the game may deserve an all-out patent disclosure – what you think?
“Timmy, Jimmy, slippery Marlene, Piggy”
Nasty ! I kike nasty.
The tea supping jerk, he shows his colors !
Guess he torn his bra and dress off to get that angry !
@Marlin
“In one obvious example, most of us here have not even disclosed their primary country of residence. Or gender, for that matter”
English and living in England ..female ..over 50… not known as Pink I just happened to be listening to her when I made my first post.
It can be hard sorting the wood from the trees James
7 Jul, 2013 – 5:50 pm doesn’t seem to remember that Anders died.
Marlin…
You OWN that one.
No wonder. The French Po Lice….. they are as….as hell.
The Brits fall some way behind, but the French, they a Pro’s at this.
“In one obvious example, most of us here have not even disclosed their primary country of residence. Or gender, for that matter”
Posted here ???
James re SFO
ILS was out of order at 28L due to maintanance but they have WAAS in SFO and the 777 can use WAAS. No reason why they wouldnt use WAAS for their approach. Funny enough that many companies we had mentioned in the al Hilli case are very very active for WAAS because WAAS should finally substitute the old and expensive ILS when it will be licensed for CAT II and CAT III conditions. And there was a very long article supporting WAAS only a few days ago. I wouldnt dare to deny that Saad had possibly worked for WAAS projects.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2013-07-01/waas-delivers-promises-and-signals-further-innovation
I did never visit MTZ not because it would not intetest me but because i was unable to load that site without crashing my computer. Therefore i am “not guilty” LOL! WTF are they talking about?
James 7 Jul, 2013 – 5:50 pm doesn’t seem to remember that Anders died
I know lots of dead people….
And I once dated “Pink” in her early days in Compton !
Which is strange !
She’s from South Central ! I Fly to LAX a lot.
The “stars” don’t own plane. Their Arabic friend do !
Blue
Good to hear from you mate. You heard about CM ?
Trying to get the guys to set up “email”.
The plane…hard one, but I like the Triple 7.
It has a fuel line issue that should have been sorted.
Great A/c tho.
Flaps down I guess.
and wheels.
You can recover. You take off the flaps and do a “go around”.
IF it was a dual engine failure, you can’t do that.
If your gear is down and your flaps and spoilers set… nada.
I don’t know. But I heard they called a “pan pan pan” on finals.
That’s all I heard.
James
What if WAAS did not work properly? I mean, somebody updates the GPS signal a little bit and you are suddenly 15 ft too low and maybe the system thinks that the runway is 100 ft further right.
They had 98 knots when crashing instead for 135 knots minimum. To me it looks like a computer error because the pilot would not deliberately land on sea while approaching manually.
How ling does it take to stop the autolanding and switch to manual landing? If so, it took too long and at 98 knots you cannot gain any height, can you?
My suspicion is WAAS and/or GPS.
Here is a video of the crash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEDZerwU7uE
I have no problem with an email. Btw, the NSA knows everything about us, with and without our emails. If i would not want to stand to what i write then i should better not do it.
Just to follow my post to “clear it up”…and BB had a friend who is a fellow four bar.
“You can recover. You take off the flaps and do a “go around”.
If you lose all engines (total failure)then you can “crash” on your gear, which will be extended.
It is safer to crash on your gear if there is that failure.
After Fat Bastards “strange” is it true “comments” I feel I have to explain “the why” to everyone !
Right…. I take it CM is going tomorrow.
The damn fine fellow is in the bodyshop.
So what to do ????
Comments are still enabled James its just that Craig won’t be blogging as far as I can see ,Jon is still around moderating.
All the best Craig .
James @ 7 Jul, 2013 – 11:53 pm
“Right…. I take it CM is going tomorrow.
The damn fine fellow is in the bodyshop.
So what to do ????”
Just keep posting here. Craig is “going in for repairs” and obviously won’t be starting any new blog topics for a while but the existing blog topics should keep ticking over.
See this post from Jon (one of the moderators) @ 7 Jul, 2013 – 1:01 pm
in reply to Suhayl Saadi @ Jul, 2013 – 12:30 pm :
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/07/blog-down/#comments
“Yep, the commenting and discussing switch is still set to “enabled”, as far as I know! And thankfully I’ve left my umbrella (non-pointy version) on a bus. Weather’s too nice for it anyway, I’m off on the bike!
Get well soon Craig, good health.”
Oops – sorry Pink. Just shows how long it takes me to compose a post!
Blue.
They will switch to “manual” before landing.
But it is more complex than that,
The inputs will still be part or the overall system.
You (human) could never react fast enough.
Maybe he “under cooked it”.
You do get bad landings. The old “remove before flight” ribbon stuck on your jacket.
And I have never flown a Triple 7.
We’ll see when the NTSB look at it, they have the crew and the a/c so it’ll be there. No hiding place.
Pilot error !
Depends where the pilot (PIC ? and SIC was trained).
Could be a “do or die” pilot (US trained).
Hamerica has that approach……even in “approach” !
There “step downs” are big. I ignore most of what the do.
I pay attention when its a CAT I. The Yanks think they are “fighter jocks” and their ATC. Mad !
I can not see an approach to SFO an issue, unless it was the Auto Throttles issue. Or step down plus throttles.
But from pics, he’s clipped the bank.
Seems he’s “tail struck”. also (2 pax from the rear).
Boeing won’t like it. This is an issue that should have been sorted. Regardless what the Yanks say.
They can’t fly anyway.
As I say, it’ll come out.
Ah !
Thanks for that dudes… and dudesses.
You maybe both “dudesses” ?
I thought it would shut down.
So if the other place manages to get going again…it’s back on.
Max no need to vent her angry posts again !
American see ! “Look out of the window” !
If its not set up…its not set up.
Do or Die ooooh ya !
Third world these dudes ! Here ya go.
“Gents, the 777 has a function where by if you bring the RX waypoint to the top of the legs page 1L and engage VNAV then it will give you a 3 deg profile to that waypoint. That was option # 1.
Option #2 could have been to plug in the RNAV approach and use it for vertical guidance whilst conducting the visual approach….. what we call the Chinese glide slope on the side of the NAV display.
Option #3 could have been to look out the window and put the aiming point of 1000 ft in the bottom third of the windshield and keep it there and use the thrust to maintain a constant speed profile”.
There is a saying in intelligence circles: “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.
From all sorts of directions: circumstantial, positive and negative evidence, I have been convinced this was an assassination by state or big crime agency – or a combination of both – from the first. I have discussed why I think so before, so I won’t do so again. Even if it were not the principal reason, it is very strange that it is not even one of EM’s “lines of enquiry”.
What has exercised my mind over months, is the absence of evidence in relation to a convincing connection between the parties AND workable hypothesis for what happened, if it was essentially a covert operation.
Connections between the parties exist to greater or lesser extent.
There are obviously close family ties between those in the car, the only anomaly being that Suhaila appeared to be unknown to the older grandchild Zainab. Was this significant? Did it indicate she only recently joined the group or even that it was in fact a stranger?
No doubt the police have done an exhaustive diagram of all the social links outside the immediate family that must be extensive across Europe, America and the Middle East at least. They have been considered here in the past so I am not going to attempt that aspect.
More important for the moment are the possible ties between the Al Hilli’s and the other victim (SM) and first on the scene (WBM) and I allude to that aphorism at the top.
Of course it is not necessary that they did know one another or have points of contact but it is at least interesting if they did. From the police point of view any earlier contact has never been suggested to the extent that either they think there wasn’t any, or don’t want us to know about them. However this does not rule out the possibility.
First, WBM may have had some acquaintance of SAH as both were closely connected to aircraft and BOEING in particular – the former in training and consultancy; the latter in elements of aircraft design. In addition in England they lived in the same county (Sussex) I believe and may have operated in similar professional circles. Then in France there was opportunity for contact. SAH had been holidaying in the area for years in which WBM had his “Silver Fern” holiday home, they were both from England and both enjoyed cycling. Were they members of the same bicycling or other clubs we haven’t been told.
These are possible contact points leaving aside any that may or not have been intentionally established between them, either of their own volition or organised by others of a clandestine nature.
Finally what are the chances SM was linked to either of the aforementioned? A link between WBM and SM is perhaps more likely owing to their common interest in semi-profession bike riding. In the past it was mentioned that they were both in the same cycling club. I don’t know, but if they were it casts a rather strange light on WBM’s evidence, for he would surely have recognised him when he overtook, and made a point of saying so, or at least on discovering him dead. Not to do so would certainly raise suspicions.
It is not out of the question that SM knew SAH but rather unlikely on the face of it. They were both technical chaps who were experts in materials science and application. They likely shared rather negative views of Israel. They MAY have harboured Palestinian and Iranian sympathies. They were of similar age with children. They MAY have discussed common interests on the internet but otherwise we must admit the links are weak.
TO BE CONTINUED ….
Tim V July 6 12:20 AM
I did want to say that this post of yours was a really cogent explanation of why the SAH BMW could not have possibly made that arc whilst under fire. It never made sense to me that he could IF we assume he made a run for the car AFTER SM was hit and he (and possibly Zainab) were wounded. not enough time for that maneuver, however one wants to stretch it.
That being said, the one thing we cannot be sure of is that the car making the arc was the killer’s vehicle – though we may be able to exclude all kind of cars. We can’t be sure but perhaps can put a probability on that, just as the investigators would – I’d say it’s over 60% just because the tracks appear relatively fresh and the car movement betrays speed and purpose, including the skidding and possibly breaking*, something that just doesn’t make sense for some regular old SUV making a leisurely turn.
here is a scenario for which i can provide a probability of well under 5% and that is that the tracks were made by one of the emergency or police vehicles. highly unlikely that they would wish to totally contaminate the scene so quickly after the murder, or that they would resort to such a sudden extreme maneuver in doing so. that marilyn suggested just such a possibility caused me to roll eyes in a somewhat unhealthy manner.
What is it that causes people to hang on so desperately to scenarios or theories when they are so manifestly improbable? now, there’s a good question!
—
* I believe that those deep skid marks in front of the BMW passenger side are due to sudden braking. not sure whether this was discounted and/or remains a possibility. The marks sure are suggestive of a vehicle coming to a sudden stop, with nose just blocking the BMW, possibly necessitating that reverse. I did look at the geometry of the arc and among other issues, it just doesn’t not lead to the final BMW position without some abrupt change in direction, which again is not very likely whilst under fire. To me the arc does indicate a braking action, which is quite likely assuming it was moving in a forward direction.
Not sure whether there was agreement regarding the braking. max asked me about it and i was going to answer – in due course – but then the copyright silliness came up and the thread closed down.
Your thoughts?
PS I also liked your 4;59PM comment as a conjecture.. Alas, that conspiracy angle does still need work, as we know.
Tim V July 6 2;14PM
This was the other post i wanted to address – but requires more time. as you can see from my previous post and prior postings I agree with much of what you present.
I am especially fond of the 4×4 moving FORWARD scenario – though in that case we MUST postulate that there was purpose in the arc motion, either knock someone down or block an escape. If SM’s body showed signs of being moved on the gravel, there’s a chance he was pushed forward or sideways rather than dragged. If pushed, that would be by the killer vehicle, and he could well end up somewhere n front of the passenger wheel of the BMW.
If the vehicle in question was a RHD, I’d postulate that the shooter was already out of the vehicle, moving towards the BMW, even as the driver executed a circular maneuver to block the BMW’s escape (which otherwise would have moved forward, as you and others suggested before (one cannot exclude of course the suggestion by james that the intent to put in first gear failed and the car went into reverse instead. But I am not sure that’s necessary IF we can assume there was some obstacle in the front, like the killer’s car blocking the way).
I also agree that the role of the MC could be as a look-out. survey the scene beforehand, make sure others are not about to stumble onto the scene.
Finally, james suggestion that the BMW was the ‘wrong” car is another possibility that cannot be excluded. perhaps killers were waiting for the Bossy’s car – also with two females, which was late in arriving. Unfortunately i cannot in good faith give this a high probability because it introduces complications that are difficult to resolve. With such an efficient killer i don’t see how a mix-up could happen. may be i didn’t understand james’ conjecture though.
I do
“I do” what? must have been a broken trail of thought….now what was that?
oh yes, I did have one more comment and that is to all who consider alternative scenarios for the victims.
This one is again, a knock-off from something Tim V mentioned a few times, including just above.
I must concur with the suggestion that it’s just too far fetched that SM could be the ONLY intended victim, with al Hillis as ‘collateral”. people hang on to that scenario (especially at MZT) because it keeps the motivation “local”. But that’s putting “the “keep it local” motivation before risk vs opportunity costs. Alas, such an event would indeed make our killer one crazy dude. If he/they only wanted to get SM it would indeed be so much easier to get him while biking on his own, either up the road or on the way down. lots of places where he would be the only biker. A few bullets and bingo – mission accomplished – no more complications due to massacre of an entire family, hurt kid, attention from UK, mess all around etc. the idea that Al Hilli could serve as a “mask” again strains credulity. Whoever had something against SM would surely not take on such a risk. lots of other more sensible “masks”, including arranging for a little ‘accident”. perhaps not unlike what happened to our long forgotten Frederic Brun?
Besides, if EM is so keen on diverting away from local culprits, the same behavior would be operative were SM the only victim in say, some unfortunate accident – a hit and run maybe on an isolated road?
Sometimes i think that all the great ills of the world could be attributed to people just not taking a statistics and probability class sufficiently early in their career. I would make an introductory class mandatory for all 15/16 year olds everywhere. may be even 13/14 for those too precocious for their own good. As a side benefit, that should keep the would-be miscreants the world overd plenty busy.
“Marlin 8 Jul, 2013 – 6:44 am” In contrast to James, I have to say who always leaves me concussed (no offence intended), I appreciate your rational approach to the issue under discussion. And it’s not just that we tend to agree. I should be happy to have errors and misconceptions pointed out if they came from such a quarter. It was the rather cheap and unjustified jibes that I found unacceptable at another place.
As to that vehicle making the skid or acceleration marks, I agree with your assessment (obviously) that although we can be fairly certain they WEREN’T made by the Al Hilli BMW, we can’t be absolutely certain as to what and who DID make them. The possibilities: a young road racer showing off; an emergency vehicle arriving or leaving scene; the forestry vehicle; some other unidentified vehicle.
However there is a very telling point that I made that you may have overlooked, that virtually rules out these options, and which by a process of elimination, indicates it WAS the killers vehicle. It comes from an unimpeachable(?) source: Eric Maillaud himself!
Perhaps unwittingly he confirms it, by attesting to the theory that it was SAH’s car that made the tracks (notwithstanding the fact that I think we have shown that was not possible). If for a moment he had thought it was some other vehicle, he most certainly would NOT have made, or allowed to be made, a quite wrong reconstruction.
This leaves us with a secondary conundrum: either he truly believed it was SAH’s that made the marks, in which case I think we are justified in criticising his interpretational skills; or he allowed an incorrect interpretation to be circulated by the press – almost I think without exception – without correction – a very questionable position for a law officer; or he knowingly promoted a false interpretation.
Either way it rather rules out the “fall-back” “non-killer” explanations for the tracks.
Unfortunately it rather repeats his performance with regards to the 3.48 call doesn’t it? Sadly both these dubious “facts” are still the prevailing ones in the public domain and have not been challenged.
Marlin
8 Jul, 2013 – 7:02 am – Agreed. This in large part is the theory I put forward a long time ago. Everything points to a vehicle accelerating out from a standing start on a right hand arc that just happens to terminate at the blood stains. I think your suggestion of a passenger jumping out before it starts moving is plausible/possible. Also that SM’s (and even ZAH’s) could be more consistent with being “struck” rather than “dragged”.
There was a throwaway line of Lynda’s in MZT that I couldn’t help noticing. That SM’s injuries were consistent with being “kicked in the thorax”! I thought that quite strange as, as far as I am aware, that would be privileged and confidential information. Had she seen it reported, was she making it up, or did she have access to private information?
If accurate and well founded, it would certainly support my suggestion that he was “barged” by the vehicle, either intentionally or because the manoeuvre was so violent and directed they just couldn’t stop in time. As I have said before, children’s head injury is is a classic result of vehicle/pedestrian collision at relatively low speed.
We still cannot be sure whether it was LH or RH drive. If it was a Forestry or locally registered vehicle it would be LHD. If imported or the recently suggested BMWx5, RHD. The green forestry vehicle appeared to fit WBM’s recollection. EM agrees it was there but has ruled it out! How strange is that? Now belatedly we have the RHD BMWx5.
We are therefore bound to pose the question, how could two 4×4 vehicles be on scene at virtually the same time and not be able to provide reliable detailed information? A green SUV passing WBM on the way up and on the way back MUST HAVE met a “Grey or dark coloured BMWx5 overtaking him when he was one kilometre into the Combe, at or about 3.20.
Has the Grey RHD BMWx5 been introduced to take attention away from the green LHD forestry (Mitsuibishi?) or vice versa? Are either or both reports reliable? Finally we mustn’t forget the motorcylist that WBM says accompanied the truck. EM certainly hasn’t because he sought to pin all the killing on just him. Yet another of the Public Prosecutor’s inexplicable stances.
@M 7 Jul, 2013 – 9:41 pm; DDT 7 Jul, 2013 – 10:44 pm: All
Now just what on earth could have rattled MZT’s cage, I wonder?
Did she take the huff over the discussion about copyright, displaying herself to be rather ill informed about the legal niceties of cyberlaw? Or were we happy band of sleuths getting perilously close to the truth, as the discussion edged towards online data??
Incidently, I have a theory about our Marilyn ..
Marlin
8 Jul, 2013 – 7:02 am then you add: “Finally, james suggestion that the BMW was the ‘wrong” car is another possibility that cannot be excluded.”
Again agree.
If fact we have two situational possibilities for confusion: SAH/PD/B and SM/WBM. It raises the point that we don’t know what car PD/B was driving. It wasn’t a BMWx5 was it? They might arguably be confused. Is that the next theory we are about to hear from EM? On the face of it timing is all wrong. First it’s way out from all earlier suggestions (past 4) but it would also place PD/B at the scene of the murder at the critical time if the BMWx5 was his. Anyway why would the police put out an appeal for it if they knew who owned/drove it?
The wrong people do get shot on operations by both police and criminals but I cannot help think a lot of planning must have gone into this one and the victims were not accidentally hit.
Mochyn69
8 Jul, 2013 – 3:11 pm perhaps your “theory” might match my “reservations”. Does Marilyn have a public profile?
There appeared a very obvious duo there that were 100% supportive of whatever EM said and had a ready explanation for changes, inconsistencies and contradictions. Vehemently rejecting any suggestion of anything other than a local criminal act.
You can’t help wondering generally, where the huge state resources devoted to the internet these days goes and to what extent these sort of chat rooms are monitored and infiltrated?
*”very obvious duo there that WAS” sorry