The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
Off topic for James
I havent seen this video posted on the Civil Aviation blog but the poor quality video shows why many eye witnesses said it cartwheeled. It appears as though a wingtip touched the ground and fortunately just prevented the cartwheel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEDZerwU7uE
Back to al Hillis:
Not sufficient evidence for the french court. Were they carrying the evidence in chevaline?
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKBRE9670IT20130708?irpc=932
Just before they put up the shutters, Oui Copyright © 2013 · The Website Of Author Marilyn Z. Tomlins · All rights reserved referenced the following story about the murder of Chief Brigadier Cédric Papatico at Chambéry in April 2012 :
http://www.20minutes.fr/grenoble/915229-policier-bac-tue-chambery
‘L’émotion était vive..’; ‘Une cellule d’aide psychologique a par ailleurs été mise en place à la BAC.’
Emotions were high .. A psychological support unit has also been put in place at the BAC (the anti-crime brigade).
As Oui said, worthy of further investigation in connection with the killings at Chevaline.
Now, I’m beginning to see part of the rationale of EM’s modus operandi.
Straw66Berries.
Heard it did “cartwheel” but not seen anything much as been a busy little bee today.
Seeing that clip, they were damn lucky to be alive.
They say there were 4 in the cockpit.
Two flying, One relief …and a fourth but they haven’t said what he was doing…or if he was working.
Four heads are better than one, so what the hell were they doing !
Sounds like it’s “trainee” day ! Clear, bright, day
….let the new guy have some “stick time”.
Sounds like he had “power” also as they tried to do a “go around”.
But with the speed already bled away…and no height left in the game, the result is “that”.
You’ll never get power on that fast. And you’re already way too low.
God knows what they were doing.
Maybe missed the glideslope from above (which isn’t good), tried to pick it up again from below but over cooked it, then came at it from above again. Approaching like “chuck yeager”. All stick and throttle. Then tried to do his “go around” from near the deck.
No don’t the NTSB will put out there initial findings in a week.
Mochyn69 8 Jul, 2013 – 3:11 pm
Yes, something must have happened. the documentary evidence you brought up about Google was interesting, but also, on the matter of copyrights, I’ll draw attention to Eugene’s last post, where he strove to clarify some legal matters concerning differences in approach to copyright protection by say, the US and most EU countries. I was just putting together a post thanking the both of you for bringing clarity into the issue.
marilyn was also not wrong about the need to acknowledge an author if a large chunk of material is taken out of their writing, be it a column, an article or a newspaper entry. On political forums (disclaimer; i participate in two and ran one myself) how much material can be imported verbatim is a matter of both some confusion and consternation. I know that blogs run as “group blogs’ where individuals can post entries have run into troubled waters allowing people to basically post an entire article without explicit permission of the author. left unclarified is the question of “how much is too much”. To the best of my knowledge, this has not been settled, at least in the US, where most of the blogs i follow are located. I will try and find the official directives from one particular blog, which I know had lawyers looking into it.
Saying Marilyn is not wrong doesn’t mean she is right, either. For one thing, when it comes to say, Lars’ summary, it is basically an organized list of what we called here (at least Tim V and I) the “Known Knowns”. He used other people’s input, and archives from the blog to put his summary together. It is therefore doubtful that such a group effort, no matter how well sorted out and laid down, would even qualify under vague copyright statutes.marilyn refered to having to ask for permission for use verbatim parts or all of that summary. lars seconded that interpretation. left unsaid are the issues of (1) how substantial is the “quote”, and (2) does the protection, vague as it is (and here I am using AUS law) even apply, given the content was not an “original thought”.
Among other things, I pointed out the relevance of the SOPA legislation that was not passed through the legislation. one thought by a conglomerate of publishers and Hollywood types. had SOPA become the law, issues like this blog copyright business would have indeed made a hash of all free-wheeling discussions on the internet. Something that has been strenuously pointed out by internet freedom activists. Who, luckily, prevailed – along with other newspaper groups who objected (there was a schism among the newspapers on this matters as many of them now carry blogs). Though this may yet be resurrected – underhandedly – just like the TIA (Total Information Awareness) program which went down to defeat, though not before it was effectively enacted by the NSA surreptitiously, under the guide of the patriot Act, as we now all know.
my theory is that marilyn went off to check on the legalities of copyright protection for individuals who post on blogs. If so, she may well find the legalities looking a bit like swiss cheese. With more holes than cheese.
Mochy 69 and Tim V,
Clarifying; Marilyn’s blog went down just as i was putting up the post to you Mochy69 and Eugene. Alas, it could not be reconstructed.
The discussion about copyrights is, however, just one thing. It is possible that there were several other factors that combined to rattle the cage.
One factor was that the consensus that seemed to previously prevail on the blog was all but shattered. i think that the realization that it could not have been SAH’s BMW that made the circular tracks had major repercussions. I did expect that subsequent discussions would center around whose vehicle it was, with marilyn suggesting – based on no evidence at all – that it could have been one of the rescue vehicles. Sure, anything is possible, right? interesting that even Lynda did not seem keen to go that way, and certainly no one else picked up that line.
Clearly, with the possibility of killer vehicle somewhere on the premises (whenever it arrived) a conspiracy theory (as Tim V said: conspiracy = more than one) would have to enter the mix, virtually by definition. Whoever the conspirators are. Was it Lars or Max that just suggested a new theory: piste – police? also Qui was making progress with the nuclear angle – slowly but surely nudging the conversation towards a plausible connection between SM and SAH. Three other posters were in the process of coming up with their own theories, each involving more than one person. Either way, the lone nutcase killer seems to have been put to rest as the illogical and unlikely possibility that it was all along.
In that Tim V’s contribution and the vivid discussion it generated about car tracks, tires and SUV types were an essential element in shaking the consensus. Hence the rather denigrading and impolitic reception he got from some (not all!) quarters. Sometimes logic can be the enemy of those who perceive that it leads – inexhaurably – to where they don’t want to go. Why they don’t is another question. that being said, there were good people posting on that blog whose motivations cannot be impeached. we had similar discussion on this blog too with opinions and theories ranging far and wide. From a local forestry/police conspiracy to state agencies in far flung places, to mafia drug deals etc etc, Q. for example, brought up the jewels angle as possibility (with a connection to the Mastros who live in the vicinity). others brought up various blackmail scenarios and drug smuggling in Haute Savoy. None could be excluded at this point, short of new facts that eliminate one or more possibilities.
In all, I don’t know what “rattled the cage”. It may well have been the “piste police”, or the naming of names and/or belated accusations of individuals that marilyn was always keen on preventing (why is another matter; perhaps something to do with her having to continue and cultivate sources among investigative/official authorities). Or it could be something else and Mochyn is right about the online data spill-off business.
My guess is – along with james, that there is an “off-broadway” private group under construction. Those who are in, are in, and those who are not, well – tough luck, right? either way, the reality show goes on, right here (hopefully).
Firstly, my best wishes to Craig, I hope your parts get refurbished as quickly and as painlessly as possible.
Secondly, I have just checked ‘the other place’ and there is now a placeholder message at the bottom of the thread, saying in summary; had high traffic, need to do some site maintenance, back shortly.
Also, re the “other place”: I referred in my comment above to Lars’ new theory “piste, police” (I’m pretty sure it was Lars. Max has the “cuddly toy” theory, the ultimate anti-conspiracy paint tool). Well, I went looking for it and can’t find it any longer (though i could be missing something – I remember the comment clearly as I was thinking of responding to it – had some potential, and the ingredients for a good story, whether likely or not)*. Also the total number of comments declined since yesterday’s close time.
If indeed that comment (actually a few since Lars elaborated on the theory) was removed, it may explain why the blog had to be closed down for some “urgent maintenance”. Some things can get people in trouble in France?
Again, if true, too bad. I am all for new “pistes”. especially ones that connect all kinds of events. Goulash is good.
__
* Mochyn69 – does it ring a bell for you? i know you have good memory….
Some people didn’t want to comment as it was said, they said, it was becoming like this place.
How did they “say” that !
@james “how did they say that”?
By e mail of course, to you-know-who.
Sad, i think, those legions of would-be commenters, summarily ‘discouraged’ by mere resemblance to the illustrious (was it, notorious?)’ CM. Must have been, like, hundreds?
That should teach some of us to barge in, univited, stealing all the biscuits and making a mess of the sugar cubes (for the tea, you cretins!). All that good old public school education – wasted!
OTOH, I am becoming better at sorting your riddles, james. Getting ready for the next test now…cramming….
Your learning me old mucker !
So… I guess everyone has a book…or two in them ??
Straw et Blue….
For Your Information.
My times maybe out here, but….
The Pilot Flying had 43 hours on the 777
First time into KSOF.
First landing in a 777.
KSOF had no ILS sys
Therefore your on PAI lights.
BUT
NOTAM
“!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00”
No PAPI lights.
NOTAM
“!SFO 07/047 SFO RWY 10R/28L CLSD WEF 1307062309
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 23:09:00”
Then airport closed due to crash.
My timing maybe out….but if that is the case then all the “heads” may have been out of the window.
And the PF (pilot flying) being an ex Airbus guy (auto throttles don’t move on them, they do on Boeings) if he’s “holding the throttles” he’ll over ride it…and the speed will bleed off.
At 500 feet he’ll turn off the Auto Throttles….and check his speed. But if he’s trying to see the PAPI lights due to no ILS. being ex Airbus, he may have missed it.
Interesting to see what KSOF has to say.
Then again…my times may well be out on the NOTAMs.
From my post above.
Could this be something to do with it? Could it have let the cat out of the bag. Or shut the stable door after the horse had bolted?
“There was a throwaway line of Lynda’s in MZT that I couldn’t help noticing. That SM’s injuries were consistent with being “kicked in the thorax”! I thought that quite strange as, as far as I am aware, that would be privileged and confidential information. Had she seen it reported, was she making it up, or did she have access to private information?”
This particular contributor was very fond of saying, “We don’t want Marilyn to close this blog” – usually in response to a suggestion by someone that was “off-script”. She appeared to use it like a gentle tug on the reins. Maybe there was an element of premonition to it as in, “I know how far the discussion will be allowed to go, and it’s getting close!”
“PAI lights” should read “PAPI lights”
They are the “four lights” to the left and/or right of the “concrete” !
Two white (outer), two red (inner)…and you’re doing fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OErn1MCeGXg
and one came down in anchorage too
Tim V @ 8 Jul, 2013 – 1:16 am
Your “There is a saying in intelligence circles: “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.” post.
I’d add to that the almost complete absence of information about Sylvain Mollier. I keep coming back to that – so much so, that I sometimes think if more was publicly know about him it might provide the key (to the connections you talk about) and that the information is being deliberately withheld/suppressed to prevent those connections from being made.
I noted that “kicked in the thorax” comment
….and did wonder “what does that look like” ?
There was a lot of comments about drink also. And not just tea.
I put it down to something like a tea overdose.
Agreed, Straw. Healthy debate is needed, along with open minds.
I am reconsidering my claim to the letter “Q”, if that will help. I’ve decided only to claim the capital “Q”, and only when used in titles, due to the question of common usage. People and entities with titles containing “Q” can hardly claim to be common.
Correction.
NTSB said the PAPI was working.
They got rammed in the crash.
What an odd way to post a NOTAM. They do things differently there.
Tim V
There’s nothing to do in Anchorage BUT crash !
The post i said was missing was not. just failed to scroll up far enough. The “piste police” is there in all its glory. Worth a read.
That’s what happens when one tries to find needles in haystacks.
But something was still “going on” and it wasn’t just some “copyright” business. So it might be the “thorax kicking’ business. Or not.
Perhaps off topic but worth to know for us:
This is a UK company. They really exist and they seem to have some business:
http://www.crisiscast.com/#!about/c4nz
http://www.crisiscast.com/#!people/c3ae
http://www.crisiscast.com/#!solutions/ch6q
There are some interesting collections. Btw. Walton is an army drummer …
http://enfordummies.com/wordpress/who-is-adam-walton/
“Our work is sensitive. We believe in loyality and confientiality. See for whom they are working and what they are doing.”
http://www.crisiscast.com/#!clients/c1tsl
“We are in the UK but we have crisis groups in Sidney, Cape Town and Bogota”.
So then, when could we expect a terror plot happening in Sidney? We’ll have to feed our actors and employees.
“Each of our teams are 12 actors.
There is a wrangler (conductor) for every team of 12.”
I always said that “Cowboy guy hero” did behave like a conductor.
This is the casting company (owned by the crisis company chiefs francesca hunt and mitchell) where they are casting their crisis actors.
http://home.maddogcasting.com/maddogcasting/about
On that I think we are agreed Bleb
9 Jul, 2013 – 12:12 am. Have a few more thoughts on that when I can muster them.
There is a problem for those that live and work inside the hall of mirrors: outside, one is never sure what is real and what is reflection.
We now live more than ever before, in a virtual world where we, the public, can never really be sure that what we “see” and what we are told is “happening”, is indeed as described.
BB’s “crisiscast” references show how people can make quite legitimate money out of it. However the relatively small step to manipulation and propaganda requires little imagination.
I drew attention at the time of the Woolwich incident, to the strange co-incidence of a cameraman conveniently on scene, unshaken and unstirred, to film a bloodied and machete wielding murderer.
It has been clearly demonstrated that the film was also edited to remove local shoppers nonchalantly walking past! @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieZoPOPoQJM
Significant reservations have been directed at the “Boston Bombings”, which linked to the shocking subsequent events of suspects being shot and killed whilst under arrest or interrogation, could not be more disquieting about Government purpose and methods.
I believe Chevaline is a case in point at least in relation to the way “facts” have been interpreted. We are in the dark as to the extent, if any, the facts themselves have been contrived to fit an agreed “story”.
What I found disturbing to MZT’s suggestion she was intending to formally copyright “Lar’s” list, (apart from the fact that this information was wholly in the public domain and contained no originality other than the act of collating, and skipping the fact that it incorporated obvious important errors (can you copyright mistakes?), and that much better collations had existed many months previously) was what appeared to be an attempt to claim ownership, and thereby control,over what was said to have happened and the work of others.
The over-riding principal in respect of “intellectual rights” is the concept of originality – to be first with a published idea. As Marlin has correctly pointed out, there are many who may be able to make a claim for such. Whether they wish to do so is another matter.
However, I may indeed be upset if an Editor of a paper say, laid claim to doubts about the impossibility of that 3.48 call if he did not credit me with it from right at the beginning of this saga. Or maybe not.
* “principle” sorry – slip of the finger. I won’t attempt to copyright the mistake though.
We dont know whether or not a crisis company already got the copyright for their theatre.
And then, you cannot copyright names and family relations and you neither could copyright anything what eric and wbm or aked etc said.
What you could possibly copyright is a conspiracy theory of one of your posters – but only if he agrees. That copyright is all nonsense. If you want movie rights ask the al saffar, al hilli and the ginolin families.
re: “piste police”
To save anyone the trouble of looking:
The “Lars piste police” theory that Marlin refers to is the idea that a single serving or ex-policeman was the killer. Thus the police are protecting him/her.
I have to say I think that very very low on the likelihood scale.
BTW – MZT blog claims to be only closed on a temporary basis pending updates to the website. I only called in there to look at this piste police reference.
“Le soleil brille”. “What a scorcher!” as the sun would say. I’m inside with this, a coffee and Mozart’s Requiem in D minor K.626.
(I’m pretty confident he could have claimed copyright on THAT if anyone had had the cheek to claim it theirs. Did he realise he was was writing it it for himself – an eternal momento mori – far more impressive than an exotic tomb?
Fortunate really because no one knows where his body lies). Perhaps the contributions to getting to the Chevaline truth will be mine? So the beach will have to wait.
I am sure I get messages from those who have gone before through the music played on Radio 3! A bit like Beethoven’s 5th during the war? I always associate this with poor old John, a great supporter and confidant. Thanks John old chap.
“Spoooooky” as Jude Law famously said in the “Talented Mr Ripley”.