The Al-Hilli Conundrum 6629


My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.

Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.

In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.

My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?

Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:

From Janesmith101

All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police

Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.

Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.

What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?

As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.

http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html

The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.

Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.

An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.

I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.

I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.


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6,629 thoughts on “The Al-Hilli Conundrum

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  • James

    @Peter
    “somebody from or close to the al-Hilli family would have had the necessary contacts enabling him to recruit members of either Hezbollah or Iraqi Intelligence”

    @Katie
    “I see a possible link there too, if Hezbollah found out/ knew/ thought, Saad was working for the UK they would see him as a traitor to his roots”

    I am just not gettig this at all !

    There are hue leaps involved here.
    Hezbollah I imagine are busy with Syria at the moment…and I guess “IF” lets say Turkey gets really hacked off with the PKK …and goes after them into Syria (foriegn troos on he ground remmber !) they coud be a “potential” spark there (The Guns of August).
    Then would resultin a wider conflict…Syria, Iran, “The Hez” verus….well you can guess the rest of that !

    No if Al Hilli is “involved” somewhere with that, then I can see a where the links would lead (The car park !!) but just “Iraqi politics” I can not see !

  • Peter

    @ Ferret

    It’s been discussed previously that 7.65mm is the Mossad’s weapon of choice, for various reasons. And it’s not an unusual calibre, it’s standard.

    Sorry, but, no, that has not been discussed earlier. It has been blithely asserted IN CAPSLOCK by someone with a basic reading-comprehension problem, who got that misunderstanding out of an article that he referenced but obviously did not read properly. A long, long time ago, the Beretta 70/71 in .22 LR calibre was the Mossad’s signature weapon. Often, the powder load in the cartridges was reduced, obviating the need for a silencer. (The sky marshalls aboard El Al planes used to do the same thing in order to minimize the risk of accidentally penetrating the plane’s fuselage in a firefight. As serving as sky marshalls is a job that Mossad trainees do as part of their training, it made sense for them to use the same type of gun and ammunition for both purposes, assassination and airline security).

    Now, the Beretta 70/71 was also available in 7.65 Browning, but it was never used to any significant extent by the Mossad in that calibre. Like most of the western world, they chose 9 x 19 Para as their standard handgun calibre.

    Kindly read for yourself: http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/

  • Kenneth Sorensen

    Okay after the 2006 onslaught by Israel on Lebanon — which totally cribled this country’s infrastructure — they MAY have gone abroad to pursue some Israeli targets. I don’t know – but it could be.

    Bluebird wrote;

    In fact, today Hezbollah is stronger and more dangerous than ever

    All is relative. They are stronger, you say, but relative to whome? To Israel? But who are the strongest and the most “dangerous” [sic] – to use your choice of words?

  • kathy

    “the loyalty to a ‘fellow Shia’ would normally follow, but he wasn’t a practicing Shia.”

    Religion in Iraq is not like in the west. It is a personal identifier much like catholic and protestant in Northern Ireland. Even if you don’t go to the mosque, you are still Shia in the wider sense of the word as it embraces the whole culture.

  • Katie

    Yes Kathy I’m fully aware of that.

    We however are talking about extremists whom we see have little logic. Blowing up a bus load of Israeli tourist for example or kidnapping McCarthy etc.

    Anyway, none of us know.
    I think we should get back to working out how 25 shots could be fired ‘accurately’ in 30 seconds. I given my view.

  • kathy

    That is, if it wasn’t the Israelis themselves blowing up that bus for propaganda. They do that sort of thing.

  • bluebird

    **********************************
    @sorensen
    All is relative. They are stronger, you say, but relative to whome? To Israel? But who are the strongest and the most “dangerous” [sic] – to use your choice of words?

    **********************************

    I said “they are stronger than ever”. That should be pretty clear and it is of course a relation to Hezbollah itself.

    Hezbollah isn’t an army in Lebanon. They are neither in Iraq nor in Iran. They are Shias who are funded by Shia groups and by Iran. They live world wide. In Europe the Hezbollah centres are in London and Sweden.

    Hezbollah is an islamic organisation organising events, donations and social care for their members. Only Isreal says that they are a terror organisation but nothing else.
    Don’t mis up Hezbollah with Al-Qaida. Hezbollah, although Nasrallah is an islamic cleric, has basically nothing todo with clerics. It is mainly run and organised by secular Shias, particularly their branches in Europe. Their terror activities are non cleric but politically inspired.

  • James

    Based on wht facts is that then Ken ?

    You just seem to “waffle” on…and on a subject you appear to kow very little about.

    I’ll putit down to living in the darkness and snow for 6 months of the year !

  • Katie

    There is of course the other scenario.
    After Saad’s nightly rants against Israelis Hezbollah wanted to recruit him & he refused.

    I see him as a pacifist not as an active aggressor.

  • dopey

    @CD
    A query re succession law.
    It’s been reported that the Claygate house was in Saad’s mother’s name and that she left it to him. Since she pre-deceased her husband would he not have had an automatic right to inherit the property (the family home) on her death, or at least part of it?

    It was reported that Zaid lives in a flat rather than in the house he reportedly owns and where his son Sean O’Reilly-Hilli lives. O’Reilly’s mother is deceased.

    Is there some tradition or reason that family home might be in the wife’s name?
    ……………………………….
    Perhaps the father didn’t want his name on the house? I’m getting that impression. It could be for business reasons ie protection from creditors/future bankrupcy if any business failed in the future (I don’t know the ins and outs of this but know its not uncommon for things to be put in the wife’s name for this reason, or in the past)

    Villains might put everything in the wife’s name too for similar reasons. I was married to one. They don’t like much in their own name.

    Anyway, for whatever reason it does sound like tha father didn’t want legal ties to that house.

    What confuses me is, if the house was in the mother’s name, she made a will and left the house solely to Saud, then why reports that the house was jointly owned with Saad’s brother? And why was Saad worried he might lose the house? His mother died ten years ago so there cannot have been a will dispute over the house if the mother left it to Saad so long ago.

    1) If the mother left the house solely to Saad then any dispute over the father’s will cannot be to do with the Clayton property, but about other issues.
    2) If the mother left the house to the brothers jointly, then if Zaid wanted half his share then Saad would be obviously worried about how to buy Zaid out, but this wouldn’t be a will related dispute.

  • Ferret

    @Katie

    You should watch the videos Anders sent you a link to last week. The one’s you “didn’t have time” to watch, remember?

    They will answer your question.

    30 shots can accurately be fired from a stationary position in just one second and there is a video on youtube of someone doing it.

    There are also videos of people moving and firing 30 shots or so in 5 to 10 secs at targets, also with great accuracy.

    So, do yourself a favour and educate yourself using the resources other posters here have already provided, a long time ago.

    This is a totally dead subject (no pun intended!)

    Next distraction?

  • Peter

    I think we should get back to working out how 25 shots could be fired ‘accurately’ in 30 seconds.

    I don’t think that they were fired particularly accurately. In the scene-of-crime photos, some very obvious misses can be seen. Regarding the speed (25 shots in 30 seconds), that is quite feasible, even for a single shooter changing magazines twice.

    What puzzles me, however, is how 10 cartridges could end up either underneath or inside the car (the reports differ in that regard). Cartridges inside the car would mean that the shooter opened a door and leaned inside the car – but the car’s doors were locked. Cartridges underneath the car would mean that SAH only reversed the car after 10 shots had already been fired – but at whom? Taking out the driver no doubt would have been the shooter’s first priority.

  • dopey

    @ peter
    What about a scenario whereby shots were made to the bodies first then the shooter leaned in through smashed windows or stuck his arm right inside through smashed windows to fire the bullets into their heads? Would that work re the cartrdiges inside the car?

  • James

    Ferret.

    Gary Aked said that Saad had “other companies”.
    Where ?

    Postman (of 7 years) said he knew of Saad for three.
    Odd postie ? or no Saad ?

  • Katie

    I don’t think the 7 Yo, was shot, I think that wound to the shoulder indicates a possible ricochet , maybe off the windscreen, apparently that curvature could do it……

    1] Why would she be hostage when all were there willingly ?
    2} Why take a hostage when you are going to kill them anyway ?

    No bargaining was necessary IF something was being willingly handed over.

    I also think the first shots were into Molliers back, remember too that AH had his seatbelt on which makes me think he was not the one who made the exchange but Rafman … …or the fifth person.
    A possible assistant [ hidden until now ] fires at Mollier, deal is completed at the same time Rafman/fifth person shoots into the car through the open door.

    Or vice versa .
    { I have said before, I cannot see this scene is possible with one gunman,]

    Right hand drive car,left door open & accessible to shoot three people in the body quickly, then reload to execute the headshots….. assistant removes bike from roof of car.
    The window shots are fired as they depart

    If the assassin was BM then no vehicle would be needed & actually very little drama, if there were an assistant which is the one explanation I give for the damage to the child’s skull , meaning he didn’t have any emotional connection unlike BM who knew the family he could have been on the motorbike, which can do scrambling on the rough terrain, already in the carpark.

    Could those marks on the bonnet be the girls & she actually fell down from there rather than ‘pistol whipped’, flying within a few days will a fractured skull does not seem credible..

    For those who favour Mossad….who is to say Rafman is not a Mossad man ?

    >>>>>>

    Having said all that,if it were an Iraqi/mossad hit,quite simple, motorbike, two men, arrive just as this meeting finished,killed Mollier,peppered the car,reached inside the bullet hole to unlock door, direct shots to the heads, & away ignoring the two girls….. one of which was outside & hit by a ricochet bullet,the other hid the minute she heard the first gunshots. Motor bike helmets & visors hide all ID.

  • bluebird

    I posted some new “Al-Saffar” links a little bit further up here on this board. (it’s up there because it took a while for passing the forum moderation). Therefore I hope that it won’t be overlooked because there are some pretty interesting links regarding the Al-Saffar family in England and Iraq.

  • Peter

    What about a scenario whereby shots were made to the bodies first then the shooter leaned in through smashed windows or stuck his arm right inside through smashed windows to fire the bullets into their heads?

    Of course that would work. All that 10 cartridge cases found inside the car would mean is that *the gun* was inside the car at some point, not necessarily the shooter. It would have been risky, though, because he would be likely to cut himself by sticking his arm through a ragged hole in a car window. Moreover, he would have to have been quite sure at that point that none of his victims would be able to grasp the gun and wrestle it out of his grip.

  • phil t

    Kathy / ‘anti ”zionist”’
    (Not equals ‘anti-semite’)
    … that iz 2 say ‘blowing up buzz’$ for themselves’ …
    ‘They do that sort of thing’ (4 propanda/ideological purposes)

  • James

    @ Katie

    “remember too that AH had his seatbelt on”

    Huh !!!!

    I don’t recall that ever coming out or being mentioned at all !
    Is this afact ? Or was it a dream ???

  • Ferret

    @James

    Pay no attention – Katie is nuts. I think she does this for attention. Or distraction. Or she is just plain stupid. But I don’t believe anyone could be THAT stupid. See above, for example, where she says that SAH had done “surveillance”. She throws out these errors to get people going. Notice how everyone’s buzzing around her comments now? It’s a total distraction. (And notice the repeat question about 25 shots in 30 secs? It goes round and round, and on and on…)

  • James

    Ferret.

    Agree totally.

    Years ago they would only let them us crayons for fear they may poke themselves in the eye.

    Clearly now they allow them to use keyboards.

  • Q

    One thing I found strange is that the killing of Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh occurred on January 19, 2010.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh

    Supposedly scientist Lachlan Cranswick disappeared just before midnight on January 18, 2010. His last email went out around 11:30 p.m. The exact time of his vanishing cannot be confirmed, as no one noticed him missing for days.

    How odd it is that the date for these two incidents could be the same.

    On another front, if millions of dollars worth of “black assets” can disappear from special ops military bases in Canada, what else can vanish from secure locations?

    Now there’s this:

    http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/weapons-grade-uranium-shipments-quietly-heading-south/article2284189/?service=mobile

  • James

    …and Ferret

    Take a look at the service desk guy !
    He’s sonly there (contracting) until Jan 2011 (Saad Nov 2010).
    But he “knows a lot” about Saad’s work.

    I think thats “odd”.

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