The Extraordinary Rarity of Whistleblowing

by craig on October 19, 2012 12:12 pm in Uncategorized

The outpouring of evidence about Jimmy Savile shows that scores of people working in the BBC, Hospitals, childrens’ homes and even the police knew – not had heard gossip, really knew – about Savile’s paedophilia, but did not blow the whistle.

To me this correlates with the fact that scores of people in the FCO, MI6, MI5, Cabinet Office and other government agencies knew about extraordinary rendition, but did not blow – indeed still have have not blown – the whistle.

Savile had come to be seen as a big and peculiarly “Establishment” figure. The extreme rarity of whistleblowing in society is a strange phenomenon it is worth taking a few minutes to consider. Why did none of those now coming forward with their stories – not the victims, but the eye-witnesses – come forward at the time? Fear is probably the main answer, in particular fear of losing your job if you rock the boat. One problem in modern society is that people’s job is too central to their identity – most people when asked who they are, will reply what work they do. It is not just the need to earn money; your social status and personal relationships are often dependent on your position at work. To lose your job, or to become a social pariah within the organisation where you work, is too much for most people to contemplate.

That is why BBC producers who knew about Savile, saw him at it, did not blow the whistle on one of the Corporation’s biggest stars. It is why so few whistleblowers spontaneously come forward who have seen corruption in local government planning departments or defence procurement, to give an example. For most white collar crime there are people who are not directly involved bu see it and keep quiet. There is also the deterrent of self-incrimination – after a time silence becomes complicity.

In my own case of blowing the whistle on the international torture network, I know for certain that many other Ambassadors and diplomats knew just what was happening, most of them didn’t like it, but nobody but me blew the whistle. One Ambassador sent me a cheery “Rather you than me!” Some were actively complicit by being involved in rendition arrangements, others passively by not trying to stop it. This is why the Gibsom Inquiry into Complicity in Torture was shelved – it could not have proceeded without revealing that scores, possibly hundreds, are guilty, many of them still high-ranking civil servants. It was to protect them and the institutions in which they work, rather than to protect the high profile war criminals like Blair, Straw and Campbell, that the Establishment closes ranks. I always knew I would never be allowed to testify before an Inquiry into Complicity in Torture.

Whistleblowers are not just thrown out of their jobs. They almost never find new employment, as the one quality every employer values above any other quality is loyalty to the employer, right or wrong. Nobody wants a “disloyal” employee, whatever their motives. And if your whistleblowing involves the world of war and spying, they will try to set you up on false charges, like me, like Julian Assange, and not just sack you but destroy you.

Whistleblowers are rare because it is a near suicidal vocation, and everyone else is too scared to help. The Savile case teaches us far more important lessons than the prurient detail of a lurid life. Think about it.

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  1. “Whistleblowers are not just thrown out of their jobs. They almost never find new employment, as the one quality every employer values above any other quality is loyalty to the employer, right or wrong.”

    I worked out too that loyalty to employers is the purpose of certain psychometric tests. I went for a very basic job which involved a psychometric test. There were mistakes in the logic of the questions and how questions were phrased, being geared towards finding out how loyal an employee might be. I could see what they were after but I was not prepared to tell lies. If something is wrong you should question it. I did. I did not get the job.

  2. Agree rare – exquisite – amazing and brave. Valued as leaders in society…

  3. Very true and very sad. This is also how the smear of anti-semitism works, and why it is so powerful in preventing people speaking out against Israeli crimes.

  4. Maybe you should write a book about whistleblowers in general?

  5. Why do people molest children?

  6. There’s also the problem of knowing your report will never be treated seriously, because the behaviour you’re trying to report is normalised and accepted by too many people.

    I know of a group of men who like cutting children’s genitals while others watch – but who the hell can I report this to?

  7. I hope that a video is being made of the speech just made by Deepa Naik outside Isleworth Crown Court. She is the wife of Trenton Oldfield who has been sentenced to six months’ imprisonment for his protest in the Thames in April which was seen by the media as an attack on the Boat Race itself. Shock horror. We can’t have this sort of thing going on in our country.

    Her words were amazing for their truthfulness on the current state of affairs in our ‘democracy’. She covered many aspects of government and even referred to the fact that the Queen signed off the Health and Social Care Act which WILL destroy the NHS. Well done to Sky News for carrying it and to this brave couple.

  8. Prof. Ian Parker of Manchester Metropolitan University was recently suspended on a charge of Gross Misconduct for sending an email asking why an academic appointment process in his department excluded all members of academic staff in that department:

    Bullying in the workplace is rife in the UK and to an extent that goes some way to explaining why people are scared. One of the statements released to the press by the Management at MMU claims that Parker was guilty of insubordination! Should any employee be described as a subordinate? Surely that is a term at home in institutions such as the military or police force, where there are ranks and orders and such-like. But no, university managers it seems see their academic staff as subordinates

  9. However with Savile it was more than just whistleblowing failure, reports were made to several seperate police forces, there were much more than rumours known to journalists, it seemed to be known at the top tiers of the BBC and yet still nothing was done about it until after his death. There is more to this than meets the eye. It is possible that some of the reports have been exaggerated but without a serious no holds barred investigation, we will still not have the whole truth of this affair. As for Craig’s ordeal, if you join the Establishment, the FCO being part of it, then you must expect to find out things that you would rather have not known about, and signing the Official Secrets Act is accepting that you will not blow the whistle.

  10. we only know from the police that no one blew the whistle maybe they did and the police hushed it up.

  11. anyone heard the name “marc dutroux” mentioned in the mainstream media?

  12. How can we best help Julian Assange and other whistleblowers?

    Blow, Blow, Blow those whistles! Spill as much of the corruption into the sunlight as you possible can!

    Come on, folks! Courage is contagious!

  13. More than once I have blown the whistle on paedophiles both within the family and at work, none of it turned out well for me. The stress involved has seriously damaged my health and well being but, having said that, I will continue to expose it when I see it. As in this case with Jimmy Savile many more victims, some of them still children, came forward to be heard – not all of them were believed!

    Well done for having the courage of your convictions.

  14. Bill Maloney did an interview on uk columns youtube channel pretty damning


    bill maloney his brother and sister committed suicide after abuse.

    Bill starts speaking at 37:20

  16. The Jimmy Savile police inquiry becomes a criminal investigation involving other living people, with over 200 potential victims.

    12:38pm UK, Friday 19 October 2012

    Claims against the late DJ go back six decades

    The inquiry into alleged child abuse by Jimmy Savile is now a formal criminal investigation involving other living people, Scotland Yard says.

    Detectives have established there are lines of inquiry involving “living people that require formal investigation”, and Operation Yewtree had moved from an assessment to a criminal investigation.

    Scotland Yard said two weeks of gathering information has involved assessing more than 400 lines of inquiry and has identified more than 200 potential victims.

    The force said: “As we have said from the outset, our work was never going to take us into a police investigation into Jimmy Savile.

    “What we have established in the last two weeks is that there are lines of inquiry involving living people that require formal investigation.”

    More follows…

  17. Even Private Eye knew something, in 1990. But it didn’t dare put it out en clair:

    “Suddenly a figure looking very different began to move towards the satin dais… Jimmy Savile, a man who had devoted his life to the welfare of others, especially the young…. Charles was bewitched by the great man’s informality, charm and infectious enthusiasm. He leaned forward and spoke earnestly to the newly en-knighted philanthropist.

    ‘Fascinating. You really must meet Diana.’
    Sir James looked momentarily puzzled. ‘Is that your daughter, Your Maj?’
    Charles shook his head. ‘No, no, my wife.’
    ‘No thank you very much, Your Maj. Bit old for me. That’s not Jim’s scene at all.’

    What could he mean? Sometimes these holy men spoke in riddles.”

    (Heir of Sorrows, by Sylvie Krin -reprinted in current issue.

  18. how come the murdoch press never exposed Saville?

  19. Recommended reading for the post-PC generation: – Guardian’s Lost In Showbiz

    Great days! As those baby boomers are always so keen to tell us, we certainly won’t see their like again. Who would have believed that this was the kind of climate in which people would simply turn a blind eye to a famous disc jockey and television personality’s rampant paedophile tendencies?

  20. Whistleblowers kept schtum for some of the reasons you cite, Craig.

    There’s one point to add, though:

    It seems that there were plenty of complaints made by victims or their families, but that the police were generally not inclined to investigate. Why was this? Was it, again, that there was too much deference paid to a successful man who raised a lot of money for charity and was a friend of royalty?

    In some cases, it seems Savile or those in his circle may have intervened to crush newspaper stories about his activities.

    It seems to me that men like Savile deliberately court authority figures at whatever level of the organization. We need to know how many police officers were interacting socially/received hospitality, etc, from Savile, the production team on his shows, the BBC. Were there any particular officers or forces that were continually employed by Savile during his activities, and so on.

    A police investigation that doesn’t examine their own behaviour will be the usual partial exercise, but I won’t be holding my breath.

    Expect a few celebrity suicides in the coming weeks.

  21. if a child was being molested they could ring childline a hotline run by ex bbc presenter

  22. This is off topic but very important. Please distribute this video about a possible false flag event to wage war on Iran.

  23. LOL @ John Goss.

  24. Despite what you write here, I take it you will still STAND by your opinion that 9-11 was pretty much what the official narrative because someone would have blown the whistle by now.

  25. @Lwtc247

    You’re right. Clearly Jimmy Savile was behind the events of 9/11.

  26. Mr Whitcher – are you a troll or just stupid?

  27. Coincidentally I published a post yesterday on this very topic.It’s so important to speak out and because of my research in the cultural sector, and the book I published last year, I am also campaigning to halt bullying in the arts.

  28. kingfelix. Please, it’s an important and serious point.

  29. “That is why BBC producers who knew about Savile, saw him at it, did not blow the whistle on one of the Corporation’s biggest stars”

    I think there is a reasonable distinction to be made – one you are not making here – between “whistle-blowing” and “reporting a crime to the police”.

  30. @Lwtc247

    “Please, it’s an important and serious point.”

    I can see what your point is. However, I made light of it because there’s a flaw in your logic.

  31. Kingfelix…..Now then, now then!

  32. Lwtc247,

    Kingfelix is right – you are delivering vicious and perverse rumor.

  33. Lwtc,

    If by that you mean the buildings were brought down as a result of planes laden with jet fuel smashing into them, as opposed to the use of controlled explosives, then yes, I go for the official story.

  34. Any views on Building 7, which came down in an identical manner, yet was not hit by planes laden with jet fuel?

  35. Anne-Marie Quigg,

    I agree the ‘Art Council’ does has vested interest, yet most bidding systems, especially local council, are corrupt.

    Maria Alekhina, Nadezhda Tolokonnikova do not deserve a ‘penal colony’ prison sentence. I have written to Putin asking him to review the law regarding the terms of sentencing in pre-trial detection centers.

  36. Building 7 – an elaborate deception perpetrated by lizards from Mars on behalf of the Jooo/Masonic/NWO/ Illuminati elite at the request of Queen Elizabeth? Or collapse in some way related to being hit by debris and burning out of control for hours? Only a civil engineer could believe the latter, of course, but you decide…

    It takes that much research.

  37. If you believe wikipedia on sensitive political issues you’ll believe anything.

  38. It is a put down, derisive and a contempt for professional and valid facts and wisdom, that over 1700 scientists, architects and building engineers are pooh-poohed, passed over and tuned out from the evidence they present that tells us in simple, unambiguous words and images, that the attacks on the World Trade Buildings as told by the official government reports are adulterated, falsified, distorted and disguised. Another inquiry must be convened from more honest American folk.

    Any doubts should be dispelled, eliminated and dismissed by just listening, observing and thinking here:

    With thanks to Colorado Public Television.

  39. If you believe wikipedia on sensitive political issues you’ll believe anything.

    Hmmm. If I believe a random anonymous poster on a blog, what will I believe?

  40. A most publicized case is now being exploited just to hide that it is really the tip of the iceberg, as they say.

    The whole problem is that we live under police states of a fascist nature where much of what is going on is veiled from us because of the highly structured covert nature of its systems where too few people, especially officials, really know what is going on, and are prevented from disclosing hardly anything that is going on, thanks to cowed representative bodies, a media which is kept in line by all kinds of prohibitions, advisories, and back channels, and the employees themselves are prevented from disclosing illegal and corrupt practices, thanks to the conditions of their employment, the laws about disloyalty, and the most feeble nature of any oversight.

    We are all so confused about what is going on that we grab on anything which seems to be revealing, whether it be false whistleblowers like Assanage and Wikileaks, internet posters who seems to be off the official agenda, and blogs which suggest something entirely different.

    In the old days, the Nazis justified it by calling it a dual state where the so-called bad guys got exposed, and punished while the apparently good guys sailed right along without any trouble.

    We live in a much more mixed-up world, but the outcome is much the same.

  41. Mark Golding,

    1,700 scientists, architects and building engineers represent a miniscule of the totality of scientists, architects and building engineers throughout the world and indeed the US.

    Just as one can find a relatively tiny number of scientists who deny evolution or climate change if you were to look hard enough, so you will find a body of scientists, architects and building engineers who claim that the buildings couldn’t possibily have been brought down by what millions of people saw with their own eyes on television, namely planes laden with jet fuel smashing into them.

  42. resident dissident

    19 Oct, 2012 - 4:03 pm

    Of course those who blow the whistle on the whistleblowers are by definition just CIA stooges!

  43. I departed work with the RELEASE COLLECTIVE in the spring of 1983 after about an 8 year stint. I left because I was absolutely livid at the truly dishonest way I had been treated by an organisation I had had very very high hopes for when I’d joined – the behaviour had became utterly despicable. I was paid off with 2 Grand ONLY on the basis that I never ever spoke about what my concerns had been. If an on the face of it outward going reputable libertarian organisation can do an “Operation Cover Up” its hardly surprising that less idealistic outfits keep stoom.

  44. Mark: The reports may indeed be distorted, falsified, etc, but they are reasonably unanimous that a plane crashed into each of the twin towers, and they collapsed. To invoke deliberate sabotage by the USG to account for the collapse is unnecessary, and there are good structural reasons why they collapsed as they did. In addition to some very sloppy workmanship on the part of the builders. The firefighters’s account of the collapse of Building 7 does not require intentional demolition.

    Nor do Jews/Arabs dancing on the rooftops require anything more than delight that a MidEast casus belli has been created/a hated symbol has been demolished. Etc, et effing c. See Occam’s Razor.

    But enough of this. Whistleblowing is one thing (and as correctly indicated above, there don’t seem to be any actual whistleblowers in a position to know here, merely conspiracy theorists fuelled by a confused and initially slowly-evolving official account). Think there’s a paper trail to back your ideas up, theorists? Find it, then. Until then, gravity, heat, dynamics and hijackers (I do not say whose) are enough for me.

  45. Mark’s video above provides compelling evidence from experts in the field. They aren’t convinced by the official account. Some of them even seem to think it negates the laws of physics.

    Nutters, eh.

  46. they all knew from top down.
    he was after all the governments man yes no

    what of the deceiving D notice
    lord of leeds.

    by the clicking of his ring encrusted thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

    Esther Rantzen,he deceived us all….

    tosh and tittle and tattle tis just word play my lord.
    the upright knights of engerlund the lords and fine ladies of bbc.
    are hag esther had full reports given.
    are members of court and cabinet briefed.
    all had eye or heard of foul deed.
    all knew all guilty.
    the sin of averted gaze.
    the covering of ears from scream.
    the guilt of child sodomy,the ringing of the neck.
    the hanging of the body.
    the wallowing and the blood.

    but soft i hear fowl murdoch approacheth.
    with outlandish ike conspire racy tales of

    Foul Unnatural deeds
    that breed unnatural troubles in Cankered infected minds.



  48. I can spot a troll a mile off Daniel.

  49. sir sa vile of leeds
    was after all a doctor and a government man.

    The Earl of Dundee My Lords, I should like to join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Longford, on putting down this very apt Unstarred Question. It further demonstrates the level of determination on penal matters which has long been associated with the noble Earl.

    i should like to turn to the special hospitals service run by the Department of Health. Your Lordships will know that there are now new management plans. These plans have already affected Broadmoor Hospital. The prime objectives of this service are to protect the public and to give the patient the right treatment and a good quality of life. The special hospital service is intended to be closely linked to the psychiatric services provided by district health authorities. Special hospitals themselves are to be used as training centres to encourage trained staff in 525 various branches of psychiatry. The hospitals will also be used for research into forensic psychiatry and related conditions.

    A new special health authority is planned to oversee the operations of the four hospitals. Perhaps I may give some details to the noble Lord, Lord Allen, who inquired about them.

    The noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, asked me about the special hospitals’ complaints procedure. This is still under active consideration and will be introduced as soon as possible.

    I should like briefly to refer again to Broadmoor, about which the noble Lord, Lord Allen, has spoken. The activities of the Broadmoor Hospital Board were suspended during August and the operational management of the hospital is in the hands of a specially formulated task force whose best known member is Dr. Jimmy Savile. Dr. Savile has been involved with the work of Broadmoor Hospital for many years and is now devoting his considerable talents to ensuring that the hospital functions smoothly during this difficult interim period before the new special health authority comes into being.

    doctor savile with his new special hospital wing and his extra special techniques.
    and nobody talks about taking peter sutcliffe out for long spells.
    the ripper as muscle in a rolls royce allowed out with sir jim to rape and kill again.
    but just words.
    i mean the young girl talk the bbc it is all just rumour innit and the bbc never lie just ask are lady esther.

  50. [Mod/Clark: Deleted. Sorry, MJ.]

  51. We have speculated aplenty on Craig’s blog re: Fox/Werrity, etc.

    But what I feel is that the fertile ground some of our trolls of today are seeking here does not exist, strangely enough.

    May I suggest why? Because, upon reflection, the orientation of Komodo, Mark, John, is towards the live issues of the day. I notice, also, that those who are most invested in determining that */** is a vast conspiracy are never interested in the geopolitics that flow from that event.

    Right now, we need to know more about the human networks and shifting alliances of our political leaders, not be delving into the arcana of the melting points of steel.

    In that sense, there *is* a dark politics, but that is not synonymous with subscribing to UFOs, Men in Black, or lizards from Alpha Centauri.

    As Craig’s post addresses, the concealment of wrongdoing arises from extremely quotidian and everyday concerns. There are plenty of strong ideologies, there are innumerable weird creeds, but how many of them are stronger than the simple urge to break ranks, and in so doing, to put one’s career on the line? Who wants to go home and try and explain to their spouse that they have stood up on a point of principle and that the cost will now be the probable destruction of their future prospects and of their present lifestyle?

    That was the point, it seemed to me. Instead of applying this rather simple principle to a few test cases and seeing how strong an explanatory framework it provides, there are others who’d rather immediately summon up the notion that Savile’s abuse was sustained by mass meetings in underground caverns, where ancient gods were invoked, and those present swore complicated allegiances of blood to one another.

    Instead, we’re there with the ‘banality of evil’ type approach, of keeping one’s head down and one’s mouth shut and certainly not asking questions. Indeed, this last point can be seen in sharp relief when you look at Savile’s interactions with journalists, he makes continual references to how journalists are constantly transgressing by ‘asking too many questions’. He shows the media as being like the police but without the police’s powers. Maybe that’s why he liked to toy with them.

  52. Komodo,

    While your hanging out with the males investigating sloppy workmanship I was stuck here all day cleaning up the nest and defending your eggs against all your other mates!

  53. Mod/Clark: Thanks Kingfelix. Yes, the line between good and evil is drawn across every human heart and mind. Conspiracies exists, of course, but grand conspiracy theorising serves to externalise personal morality onto some untouchable cabal.

  54. Just a fraction of what Deepa Naik said:

    Oldfield’s wife Deepa Naik said outside court the punishment dished out to her husband wouldn’t deter him from protesting again on his release from jail.

    “He has a strong spirit and he stands by what he did,” she said.

    She said the custodial sentence was a reflection of the fears of the establishment over Oldfield’s actions.

    “Most nation states work very hard at maintaining untrue myths about themselves,” she said.

    “Great Britain has convinced many that it is the home of democracy and a gauge of civilisation.

    “Anyone living here today knows Britain is a brutal, deeply divided class-driven place.

    “London is today the most unequal society in the western world. This poverty and inequality is totally unnecessary and has been severely exacerbated by government cuts and reductions in civil liberties.”

    She called on Australians to voice their disapproval over the ruling.

    “Please come out and make your concern known as much as possible in solidarity with Trenton,” she said.

  55. Mark – They’re MY eggs? Thought you made that lot yourself. But thanks!

  56. Clark/mods/Craig. I didn’t want this thread to deviate towards the whole ball-game of 911 – I know there is a thread dedicated to that. My question is highly relevant given he dismissed it on the basis that nobody blew the whistle (as well as technicalities of wiring of the buildings for controlled demolition). His post here is a very powerful ‘universal solvent’ against his own past stated position. Surely Craig should reflect and have a serious rethink. Thanks.

  57. “I know there is a thread dedicated to that”

    Unfortunately comments are closed.

  58. ‘The Savile case teaches us far more important lessons than the prurient detail of a lurid life. Think about it.’

    Savile was not just a paedophile, he was close to the security forces, Zionism, the BBC, the Establishment, the professions of Law, medicine, psychology and politics.

    The important lesson is the nature of our Establishment that they were happy to associate with him. The promiscuous revolution which took place under Thatcher was a societal shift in which influential people decided that the next generation was not going to be brought up sexually handcuffed to conventional morality, and they would pimp their daughters wilfully and intentionally to whatever sexual chances were around.

    This was the mindset of the intelligentsia and wealthy people of the 1970s. For them, the possibility of oppression of vulnerable young people was irrelevant. They wanted their own children to have sexual freeddom which they themselves had been denied.

    Savile was a guru for them, his perversion an untidy side-effect of the Zionist-inspired transformation of UK society from Christian values to free-for-all.

    Are you going to prosecute a whole generation for this change. Savile is a hero of the sexual revolution, who is now in the process of being sanitised before being sainted.

    Truth is painful for the likes of Craig, who worship at the altar of sexual freedom. Savile was a small monster in Jurassic Park of far greater monsters. I include them all, Mrs Thatcher, Tony Blair, the BBC. Prosecute them all.

  59. Moderation Notice:

    Comments on the 9/11 Post are now open again. Here’s a link:

  60. @lwtc247

    You believe what you believe. You are again missing the point. 1/ It doesn’t matter, does it, to you, really, to have Craig reassert/shift position.

    And 2/ The logical flaw is to believe that when there are two events, independent of one another, that discovery of the cause of one has any bearing upon the other.

    That is why I said, with superior logic to your own, that Jimmy Savile was clearly behind */** because that then would provide the link that would justify the linking together of these two (so far) utterly unconnected occurrences.

    There, is that any easier to understand?

    And I should’ve name-checked Clark and Mary, too, in terms of their orientation. I always appreciate the concrete nature of Mary’s research into links between the various players. She shines a light on webs/networks, without then postulating some consciously organized clique that all gather round a table every few months to determine the destiny of the UK/EU/UN/mankind/the galaxy…

  61. I think that people are interested in the geopolitical fallout too, including the restriction of civil liberties at home.

    When we think how we may exit this Kafkaesque bollocks we might reflect that there appear to be two doors. One involves escalating war bringing its own conclusion. The other involves some form of revolution in the US, since that is the power which determines everything for the rest of us in UK and Europe.

    If it can be shown that the unmentionable was a false flag that might encourage the Americans to revolt, at least in political terms. That would change everything.


    An Israeli Ex-IAF Pilot on Board Swedish Boat To Gaza

    Friday 19th October, Spokesperson of Gush Shalom, Adam Keller, said in a press release that Israeli peace activist Yonatan Shapira, who had been a combat pilot in the Israeli Air Force and refused to take part in the bombing of Palestinian cities, has arrived on board the Swedish boat “Estelle” which is making her way towards the coast of Gaza. When the Estelle passed near the shores of Greece, Shapira and other activists made their way in a motor boat, evading vessels of the Greek Coast Guard which sought to bar their way. “Along with the Greek Coast Guard we saw a ship which seemed very much like an Israeli Navy vessel, though it did not fly a flag” said Shapira. He was received with cheers by activists already on board. Shapira had taken part in a similar sailing last year, being taken off by Israeli Navy Commandos near the Gaza shore and spending time in police detention, but not charged with any criminal offence.

  63. Guano, honestly, you don’t need Zionists to get people running after sex. It was the ’60s and the invention of the contraceptive pills that started all that. And commercialism has sexualised everything, in the pursuit of advertising, appealing to basic human drives, etc.

    Personal sexual liberty is unconnected with paedophilia.

  64. I have been watching a debate from the SNP conference on ch 81. Very interesting and old style politics where you hear all sides of the question from informed and impassioned speakers, so unlike the lame stage-managed Nu NuLab, Con and LibDem conferences where dissent is neither seen or heard.

    The question being discussed is about leaving NATO and getting rid of Trident and nuclear weapons from Scottish soil and waters. Salmond and co wants to keep the status quo until after/if independence is achieved, ie a postponement of any decision.

    A link here but I have not read through to see if it is representative of what I have been hearing and seeing.

  65. @Herbie

    Indeed. It’s what that Orlov guy has been going on about for how many years – anticipate the collapse of society by adopting a lifestyle that is simple enough to absorb it when it comes.

    One reason we may entertain the notion we are being continually deceived is that government, with it’s superior means of data collection and powers of analysis, has already become aware, some time ago/a long time ago, that the present social order is doomed, but that politically it is impossible to level with the electorate.

    I would not call that a conspiracy theory, but it does mean that the interests of the public are not served by listening and acting upon the dictates of politicians, and that there may be a set of class interests that run through the mainstream parties that commit all of them to not opening up regarding the probable impacts coming our way from climate change/oil running out.

    This might also explain the role of the Lib Dems in the coalition at a time of austerity. The idea being to closely biind all three parties into a particular line of action. We do, after all, despite the odd kerfuffle, be seem to be living under a government of national unity, pretty much, at a time of austerity, in conditions of more or less permanent foreign war.

    What Craig’s blog rests upon, it seems to me, is the recognition of these interests that are capable of transcending party lines, that are more ‘real’ than any particular policy position or declaration of humanitarian principles, and so on. And, of course, which almost never see the light of day, yet are everywhere, forming a subtext that shapes all sorts of decisions. It’s rather similar to the ‘offshore’ of Nicholas Shaxson’s Treasure Islands, once you are familiar with the concept, it’s astonishing how often it pops up as a dimension of all kinds of previously seemingly unconnected events.

    Craig seems to be an idealist in believing that the law could be applied and a better outcome achieved. With regards to Uzbekistan, the primary benefit would be for the people of that nation, should the much vaunted ‘international community’ apply sanctions of the type that Iran is now labouring under. Positive change might be forced.

    On the other hand, where the UK has interacted with much stronger nations than Uzbekistan, the primary benefits of applying law would be to the benefit of the UK’s democracy (over and above the howls of those doing well out of the present arrangement). I have a close friend who rubbed shoulders with the Saudi royals, and she said that *any* nation that has business dealings with them will destroy their own ethical bases, because that is the natural outgrowth of interacting with a group who advocate wholesale bribery as a modus operandi.

    I would hardly say she’s been proved wrong. The Saudi influence has certainly been malign in matters pertaining to the UK arms industry.

  66. Mary indeed deserves credit; her tireless digging into public records is a valuable asset to this blog.

    Kingfelix, thanks for the vote of confidence. It can get a bit crazy at times, looking after this place.

  67. Sorry Clark. Having looked on the 9/11 thread (1800+ comments!) I put this comment on. Could you please delete it from that thread.

    [Mod/Clark: Done.]

    A Bullingdon boy in action. To be a pleb or not to be a pleb, that is the question.

  68. kingfelix. Actually yes it does matter as Craig’s stance on the whistleblowers aspect of 911 has, by his own argument, highlighted an important inconsistency. Craig does have influence and IF 911 was something very different from what we are asked to believe, then, as this thread shows, people should speak out against it. Craig is a highly respectable chap. His opinions do matter; He has the ability to persuade others and open their minds, like he does about many other issues. I’ll not say any more on the issue, but look forward to Craig’s reply – if he will do me the honour.

  69. @lwtc247

    It matters to you, certainly.

    Has it not crossed your mind that Craig’s respectability might just derive from *not* subscribing to…

    Oh, never mind.

  70. kingfelix. You are consistently misrepresenting my position. Please don’t. Cheers.

  71. You have to go deeper Clark – there may well be a link with sexual liberty and paedophilia. We sow the seeds of sexual awareness and curiosity by teaching infants the biology of sex and maybe sexual disease and how it spreads. I think we must learn how to broaden this picture even at a tender age.

    For example, when is kissing okay? Necking? Petting? How can you tell if he or she loves you? What to do if someone pressures you to have sex? What if you like that person or think you are in love? These are difficult topics to broach with children.

    I believe parents have a responsibility to help children develop into responsible and responsive human beings who celebrate their sexuality but who also do not exploit others or do not know how to stop others from exploiting them.

  72. lwtc247, I think you’re probably at crossed-purposes with Craig. As a former diplomat, Craig thinks of “false flag” as a secret action by the state apparatus itself. Here’s a quote that you may have forgotten from Craig’s original 9/11 Post:

    “As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.”

    …which basically only rules out actual US policy. I don’t think you disagree with Craig as much as you think.

    But please post any further discussion to here:

  73. @lwtc247

    Why don’t you just email Craig directly and spare us your nonsense.

  74. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    19 Oct, 2012 - 5:41 pm

    Clark; Why the mod on 9/11. Sounds serious.

  75. Thanks for that, Felix. Very interesting.

    When you talk about the concept of offshore in legislation and policy etc, do you mean get-out clauses for corporates?

  76. Mark Golding:

    Something I think is relevant to your points above is the large amount of shame and embarrassment felt by many adults about sexual matters, and adult suppression of early childhood play that can be interpreted as “too sexual” by adults, this latter also driven by the fear of gossip, loss of reputation and/or getting into legal trouble. Remember also that under British law, a child can become listed as a paedophile for sex play with another child of similar age.

    Children pick up on these insecurities of adults, and it puts up a barrier, so children maybe shy away from telling adults about events that seem to be connected with sex; children know they aren’t supposed to be involved, so they fear “getting into trouble”. This leaves children more vulnerable to exploitation.

    [O/T – I received and successfully decrypted an e-mail from you. I thought I’d replied, but looking in my Sent Items I can’t find it. Curious. I’ll look more carefully and e-mail again…]

  77. Ben, 9/11 just has a tendency to take over other topics, so Craig created a thread especially for it, and made a “no diversion of threads onto 9/11″ rule.

  78. @Herbie

    If you put together John Perkins’ Confessions of an Economic Hit Man with Nicholas Shaxson’s Treasure Islands, then some of the relationships become clearer.

    I am not only talking about corporate behaviour, but why did this offshore system develop, who controls it, what is it used to accomplish, what have been its consequences, and so on, and what can we expect in future.

    In the form of Haut de la Guerenne, to go back on topic, for example, we see the power of the small island of Jersey to limit the potential for whistle blowers (by ostracising and threatening internal opposition and by barring foreigners), whether it be regarding murky financial details or paedophilia. Shaxson deals with it well in his book. The corollary to this would be to think of a place like BBC Television Centre as being possessed of something of an island mentality (the Houses of Parliament and the Lords are further examples). The interesting thing about Savile, of course, is that he actively sought out these closed worlds and moved between them freely in order to fulfil his desires – prisons, mental hospitals, hospitals, mortuaries, orphanages, the inner circle of the Royal Family, etc. His fame and his charity work gave him leverage – who knows how it worked, maybe some of these institutions were manned by sympathetic paedophiles, maybe some wanted the money that Savile’s links would bring, and maybe some were simply sincere (and/or flattered) by his attention.

  79. Clark

    It is not at all obvious to children that a means of avoiding pregnancy, and now disease, is a green light to sexual freedom.
    Even for young adults it is not an obvious progression from having sexual relationships to sexual promiscuity.

    For that to happen, parents have to give an active green light.
    Savile was a salivator for sexual salvation. Don’t always rush to defend Craig. Savile was clearly a sexual icon for the establishment, or they would have binned him.

  80. Good point Clark – thank-you.

  81. Thanks again, Felix. Just watched Shaxson’s interviews and look forward to reading his book.

    I’d come across the idea of this emerging neo-feudalism before, but you’ve certainly provided additional focus. I’ve perhaps concentrated too much on the corporate aspect, neglecting the institutional and other elements.

    Good stuff!

  82. Guano, I’m not defending Craig. I like my sexual liberty myself, thanks. Many people who knew the details might consider me depraved, but I consider them up-tight idiots. But none of my sexual fun has ever led me to lust after a child. Quite the opposite. The brain, they say, is the biggest erogenous zone, and imagination develops with age.

    “For that to happen, parents have to give an active green light.”

    Or just fail to take any notice, while the commercial, corporate media does it’s work, selling by sex, sending the message:

    “You’re no one if you’re unattractive, and attractiveness is demonstrated by how many partners you can pull. Here, buy this! And you’ll prove your sexual prowess! Be proud! Be confident!”

    Our Frank had a filthy mind, started out making soundtracks for porn, but he knew where the real problems come from:

  83. We are told by Ceop thaty paedophiles are highly organised amongst each other, that they inform each other of ‘opportunities’, even bragg how easy it is to abuse children.

    Why is not a single news rag mention other famous vistor’s to Haute La Garenne, why is the inquiery not being re-opened? when there are so obviously new lines of inquiries opening up, is it too uncomfortable for some?

    Who else has been mentioned by the victims as regular visitors? Who knew those who were found dead? but nothing was found proofing anyone responsible. The interconnections, the same faces reoccurring, visiting hospitals, Broadmoor, children’s homes, the BBC’s exec. cupboards, hidden away somewhere, all this should be running at high speed, not undertaken with kid gloves, carefully concentrating on one figure and on one figure alone.

    The reactions into this case are already making this into the biggest pile ever uncovered, the timidness of the whole process makes it obvious that this pin has deflated the ballon, hit the casus belli.

    The ongoing cover up from others implicated or accused, still living persons, should be visible on somewhere on the dark net, if CEOP really has their finger on the pulse they will pick up something.

    Are they already being held back?

  84. kingfelix 19 Oct, 5:58 pm:

    “we see the power of the small island of Jersey to limit the potential for whistle blowers (by ostracising and threatening internal opposition and by barring foreigners), whether it be regarding murky financial details or paedophilia”

    Spot on! Unchecked power always goes with secrecy, and secrecy is the enabler of corruption.

    The line between good and evil cuts through ever human soul. How many have chosen not to blow the whistle because they feared that their little piece of (probably completely unrelated) corruption might get exposed if the cover of secrecy was torn away.

  85. Unable to face the music and to sit facing the opposition heckling, Mitchell slides out. What next? A peerage perhaps? Cameron is losing it methinks. Not a good week with his energy balls up in PMQ.

    Mitchell resigns

    PS I am informed that Sa Vile was a freemason and if so, that would account for some of the protection.

  86. Surrey County Council are keen to wash their hands of any responsibility for what happened at Duncroft.

    ‘Meanwhile, Surrey County Council has confirmed it is looking into how Duncroft was managed during the 1970s, a period when Savile was said to have carried out attacks on girls there.

    Stanwell resident Andrew McLuskey, who asked the council’s Spelthorne Local Committee for a full report into the running of the children’s home, said: “It is absolutely right and proper. Duncroft was a miniature of what the man [Savile] got up to. I hope they proceed to get to the bottom of it.”


    Writing in reply to Mr McLuskey’s request, Councillor Mary Angell, cabinet member for children and families, said Duncroft was a government-run approved school until 1974, when it then became a community home under the National Association for Mental Health, now known as MIND.

    Cllr Angell wrote: “It is known that Jimmy Savile visited Duncroft regularly and allegations have been made that he sexually abused a number of young girls [who were] resident there.

    “Given the length of time that has passed since the incidents it has proved difficult to track down exactly what contact there was with Surrey, but so far our enquiries do not indicate that Surrey County Council ever had any responsibility for the management oversight of Duncroft.

    “We are currently contacting MIND to ask them for a copy of the Instrument of Management that was agreed at the time, and which local authority held primary responsibility.

    “We are currently co-operating with Surrey Police in following up any other complaints that might arise. At present, there is no information to suggest that any of the victims were the responsibility of Surrey Social Services at the time. However, we will continue with our enquiries.”‘

  87. Great post by Craig. Lots of interesting comments. I agree with most.

    The mechanism of commercial confidentiality, meant to protect, say, the chemical formula for a specific product or whatever, now typically has been extended in Orwellian fashion to obscure systemic incompetance and malevolence in public and private sector bodies. It is simply shocking, for example, that NHS consultants, GPs and other NHS staff are gagged (that is the word that commonly is used) from talking publically about the most important things to do with the running/ privatisation/uber-managerialism, etc. of the NHS. This runs totally counter to the principles and practice of a democratic society. Why is there not more fuss about this? Personally, I think they should pick a day and rebel, en masse, speak publically about everything and tell the Neo-liberal Stalinists to take a running jump. Solidarity, and some degree of anarchic Yippie-dom, is what is reqd.

    Parky, esp. suggests something even more sinister wrt the Savile case and I wonder if that might be accurate. Someone also mentioned Dutroux. Was Savile procuring children for abuse for Establishment figures in a systemic manner? Did MI5 know of this – they must have known of his own massive child abuse, as they vetted all BBC employees. So, why didn’t they say/do something? Were they protecting Establishment figures, so they could blackmail them, potentially and/or just because the security and intelligence services see protection of the Establishment as their main function? And why has it all – or rather, selective bits – suddenly come out, now? One of the regular posters here, Roderick Russell has penned a poignant piece on this angle. I’m sure he won’t mind me sharing the link here.

  88. I’m very unsure of the potential for this problem being reversed in favour of whistleblowing. I think people are only willing to come forward when they care enough and are confident that there is a critical mass of complainants with first hand knowledge of offences who are reliably willing to support each other. In Jimmy Savile’s case, the critical mass was brought together through media reports which could be safely made after his death. It might take a change in UK libel laws to allow media to report on isolated but credible allegations of wrongdoing regarding living persons. Although a more powerful media could have unintended consequences.

  89. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    19 Oct, 2012 - 7:33 pm


    “The brain, they say, is the biggest erogenous zone, and imagination develops with age.”

    Key point; Sexual imprinting leaves many with early experiences, whether of legal age or not, with deep learning which seeks replication. It’s a daisy-chain for victims, who often end up victimizers.

  90. @Ben – “Key point; Sexual imprinting leaves many with early experiences, whether of legal age or not, with deep learning which seeks replication. It’s a daisy-chain for victims, who often end up victimizers.”

    Good point. But it’s not just sexual imprinting at an early age, it’s all sorts of behaviours and habits. Ask yourself what your favourite food is and it just might be one that you ate a lot of as a child.

    But back to sex.. What are adults to do with their memories of sexual behaviour as children? Convention says they should feel self-loathing, as if that were healthy.

  91. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    19 Oct, 2012 - 7:54 pm


    ” Convention says they should feel self-loathing, as if that were healthy.”

    Guilt; as if they should have any. Abuse takes many forms, including psychological, which some view as the least damaging, in error.

  92. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    19 Oct, 2012 - 7:57 pm

    Lest we stray too far from topic…had my say on that.

  93. Suhayl Saadi 19 Oct, 7:14 pm:

    “Did MI5 know of this – they must have known of his own massive child abuse, as they vetted all BBC employees. So, why didn’t they say/do something? Were they protecting Establishment figures, so they could blackmail them […]?”

    I think this is likely. I think a lot of this goes on. Covert control through “intelligence” and blackmail. Vices are useful, and the corporate media are forever inciting outrage about vices in and of the general population.

    Jemand at 19 Oct, 7:32 pm:

    “…people are only willing to come forward when […] there is a critical mass of complainants with first hand knowledge of offences who are reliably willing to support each other.”

    Yep. Organise, collaborate, overcome the divisions. Be courageous, even if it means being howled at by the gutter press for our own minor peccadilloes. How many times have we read the slurs about Craig and Nadira? And in the end, does it matter?

  94. Jemand at 19 Oct, 7:49 pm

    “But back to sex.. What are adults to do with their memories of sexual behaviour as children? “

    Cherish them, and play them for all they’re worth, with your adult partner(s). There’s plenty of fun to be had, and it’s very popular, though rarely mentioned. Spanking? That’s a childhood experience, isn’t it? How many top-shelf magazines have “saucy school-girl” features with adult models? Who likes a bit of slapstick, getting messy like kids? None of it is a problem… until it has to be hidden away. Then it can be used for coercion.

  95. Yes, I think just about everyone, except some very wealthy law firms who allegedly represent dictators and the like, accepts that UK libel laws now are out of control and that the law in this area has become an ass. US libel laws are much more sensible. I’ve read that in the UK, if it gets to court, 90% of libel cases are successful, while in the USA it is exactly the opposite. Perhaps a greater proportion of cases in the USA get to court, though, I don’t know. But judges in the USA will quickly throw out a stupid case of alleged libel. I think Kenneth Clark, ex-Justice Secretary was trying to reform the UK libel laws, I’m not sure whether he succeeded. And now he’s been moved in essence out of power.

  96. More Frank. Warning, explicit lyrics:

  97. I’d just like to pay tribute to my dear departed friend Martyn Seago. He guided me through some of my early psychedelic experiences, and it was he who introduced me to the music of Frank Zappa. I was an up-tight young man. I loved Zappa’s music, he always used the best musicians, and it was said that his bands were only so tight because he was such a slave-driver. But his lyrics were filthy, and it was only with great embarrassment that I could withstand some of them. Nowadays, they just make me laugh. What on Earth can it possibly matter what one does with those little pieces of erectile tissue? So long as everyone knows what they’re getting into, and no one is coerced, which is only the same as anything else…

    My friend Martyn got the bowel cancer. I was at his bedside in Hull general infirmary in 2003, shortly after the tumour was declared inoperable. Together we watched the rip-off Patientline pay-as-you-die telly. We watched the statue of Saddam Hussein being pulled down by a bulldozer. We didn’t need to say anything; we both could see that it was staged.

    RIP Martyn.

  98. 1/ The evidence would seem to suggest not that Savile was a paedophile but that he was obsessed with young but nubile women. In other words he was not a paedophile but a hebephile.

    Those who cannot see the difference between sexual preference for pre-pubescent infants and a taste for young adolescents ought to get out more: paedophilia is rather rare whereas hebephilia is rampant in most cultures.

    2/ The problem to which Craig alludes is that of conformism, which is just a form of successful socialisation. The conformist keeps his head down, makes no waves, follows fashion and never dreams of thinking for himself unless his immediate interests and desires are involved. The conformist reads Savile’s statement (see the Telegraph story?) that “girls of 14 to 16 have no interest in sex” nods his head wisely and agrees with the Rebekah Brooks doctrine that there is no difference between a thirty year old man being attracted to a six year old or a sixteen year old.

    3/ The real story here is that the Police appear to have protected Savile in a manner so systematic that as to be instinctive: imagine, for example, what would gave occurred had similar complaints been made against Arthur Scargill. Or Gerry Adams…wait a minute!

  99. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    19 Oct, 2012 - 8:38 pm


    For years Zappa was dogged by a rumor he literally ate shit on stage. Finally he was asked in an interview and he replied:

    “The closest I ever came to eating shit was at a Howard Johnsons Buffet in Nebraska.”

  100. So sorry Clark. You must miss him. And that silly piece of theatre in Baghdad. Do you remember when they forgot to put the Stars and Stripes over it and had to go up again? Then the beating with the shoes when it was down. Did you also know that pieces of it appeared on an auction site? This is against the law to profit from a scene of war.

    I think that the nice tribute in Acknowledgements on this book refers to your friend. Scroll down to about page 8.

  101. Mark Golding, I’m sending you a plain text e-mail, subject “Just Checking”, within seconds of posting this comment.

    Ben Franklin: He he he!

  102. Leah McGrath Goodman, who was expelled and banned from the UK because she was investigating the Haut de la Garenne scandal, said on the Max Keiser show last month that she was told that, if the truth about this matter were aired, the stability of the whole political system in the UK would be threatened.

  103. Mary, wow, thanks. Yes, that’s Martyn, without a doubt. He encouraged me to go and live in York. We knew lots of people at the Uni. Martyn was doing his PhD in Hull. That was later, though. Martyn introduced to me this activist, Zoe Young:

  104. Lysias, how very interesting. I hadn’t heard of her before. It seems to me likely that the Establishment in the UK is rotten to the core – in more ways than one. It beggars belief that a respected, mainstream Amercian journalist would be barred from entering the UK, yet that seems to be what has happened. Mind you, across the world and in Western countries too, people – including journalists – have been killed/declared insane/blacklisted for less.

  105. Clark, just to second Mary’s comment from earlier, the story about your friend is deeply moving. I’m so sorry you lost a good friend.

  106. How terrible Suhayl that not one other MP supported John Hemming. He speaks up for Palestine too btw.

    Thanks Lysias for telling us about the ban and Suhayl about the EDM.

  107. Was Jimmy Savile guilty?

  108. I am pleased that the good journalist Liz McKean has the strength of character to stand up to the BBC establishment. Entwistle is on thin ice.

  109. So when is the sordid house of cards going to fall ?

    Is Savile’s demise going to be the lynch-pin ?

    If what Leah McGrath Goodman inferred is true, then it must be soon.

    Keep digging !

  110. I don’t think the refusal to blow the whistle is simply a calculation about losing one’s job. It’s a (British?) timidity that goes deeper than that. A deep-seated desire not to rock the boat or cause a fuss, or ‘get involved’. The same reason people don’t intervene in public when confronted by delinquent behaviour. Esther Rantzen tells the story of the cabbie who told her he’d had Jimmy Saville in the back of the cab once, and he’d had two underage girls with him whom he abused throughout the journey. ‘But what could I do?’ said the cabbie. Well, quite a lot, really. He could have driven to the police station. That cabbie’s job wasn’t in danger, so why didn’t he object to the clearly criminal behaviour in the back of his cab?

  111. Also of very great importance is the neglect of the BBC in reporting what has been going on with the ConDem changes to the NHS. I have mentioned here before that Virgin have made large inroads into the privatisation of community health services both in Surrey and in child health services in Devon, as well as in many other areas. I have also mentioned that Lord Patten (chair of the BBC Trust remember) has a financial interest in Bridgepoint, another outfit profiting from privatisation.

    Here on Medialens is some further information.

    The excellent source of this information is the website called The Green Benches run by Dr Eoin Clarke.

    ..Why did the BBC not report on the privatisation of the NHS?

    ..BBC accept their report of Virgin Court case was “flawed” and now report that Virgin Childcare deal was “unlawful”.

    ..Explosive reports seen together!


    Subliminal messages in adverts
    Manchurian candidates,

    They be filling our lives with images of hard work, morals, and stability, peace, tranquility.
    No that would be too boring and staid.

    Happy mediums…

  113. Kingfelix, your comment is excellent but I think you need to go further.
    You say the social order is doomed and the government knows it. You also say, ‘there may be a set of class interests that run through the mainstream parties that commit all of them to not opening up regarding the probable impacts coming our way from climate change/oil running out,’ and more importantly, ‘What Craig’s blog rests upon, it seems to me, is the recognition of these interests that are capable of transcending party lines, that are more ‘real’ than any particular policy position or declaration of humanitarian principles, and so on. And, of course, which almost never see the light of day, yet are everywhere, forming a subtext that shapes all sorts of decisions.’
    From various experiences in my life I believe that there is a dynamic secret power behind government, which, where necessary dictates. This power is maintained but not run by the intelligence services, which conceal, kill, intimidate and take part in illegal activities both here and abroad to provide funds to sustain the power. Sections of government agencies are used to help carry out these crimes. And just as in the Saville case people keep their mouths shut out of fear or reward. The corruption seeps down to all levels. To stay on the ‘right side’ I’ve seen a provincial solicitor perform a minor action of holding back a letter to a client, which would have severely damaged his client but benefited a government agency in that it helped hide state crime.
    Jack Straw in 2005 made a very revealing statement to the Commons foreign affairs committee,
    “Unless we all start to believe in conspiracy theories and that the officials are lying, that I am lying, that behind this there is some kind of secret state which is in league with some dark forces in the United States …There is simply no truth in the claims that the United Kingdom has been involved in rendition full stop, because we never have been.”
    It’s quite clear now that the UK was involved in rendition and Jack himself has been cited as a key defendant in court documents that describe in detail abuse given out to Libyan dissidents and their families after being abducted and handed to Gaddafi’s secret police with the help of British intelligence.

  114. This is the answer to the question on the NSPCC website

    Under ‘safeguarding children’ etc Click on ‘what to do if you think a child is being abused’

    The Department for Children Schools and Families website has now been decommissioned. Relevant content can be found on the Department for Education website

    The DCSF site has been archived and is accessible via The National Archives website.

  115. WHen Louis Theroux met Jimmy Savile, with some very interesting and now topical questions from Theroux.

  116. I think Ruth has made an excellent point. Someone – sorry, right now, I’ve forgotten who – posed the question of why and how the media (specifically, the BBC) can remain silent on such matters for so long and whether there was some or other censor. Well, in the past, MI5 vetted all BBC employees and some jouranlsist didn;t get jobs with the BBC as a result (the BBC denied that MI5 vetted their prospective employees, but after the Cold war ended they admitted it). And of course, ‘troublemakers’ don’t get promotion, so the senior people tend to be those who share and promote the dominant consensus. Institutinal censorship, one might call it.

    But mostly, I would suggest that collective self-censorship – yes, it’s very ‘British’, as King of Welsh Noir suggests – means that people in such organisations come to know and recognise the boundaries of acceptable discourse. So overt censorship – which will be wielded as a last resort (“sorry, we’ve decided to take the prgramme in a different direction…”) – is rarely necessary. Same with print journalism. We, on the outside, cannot see how certain matters do not get attention or even considered. It’s like being at a party and everyone else knows the ‘codes’. Like everything else in this country, it’s tied-up with social class, too.

  117. @Ruth

    Well, thank you. Yes, you can add your exposition to what I said, clearly there is a ‘national interest’ in the UK that ‘decontests’ certain postures regarding the UK’s role in the world. The intelligence services also, remember, if we are to believe Annie Machon, also maintain large files on all UK politicians.

    I don’t believe timidity, in itself, arises from some essential component of the English character, but it may well have been drummed into most of us over the decades/centuries. Generally, we know our place (mine is now Taiwan). I noticed when living in Ireland, with a long history of occupation and rebellion, that there was a general disregard of the rules throughout the society (for good or ill), right down to every aspect of the Highway Code being taken as optional.

    The last decent uprising that even the compliant mass media couldn’t pass off as simple hooliganism was The Poll Tax Riots (or am I wrong?), so, on occasion the opportunity certainly exists for a sudden strike back by the broad mass of the UK population.

  118. Mary, it’s good to see a mention of John Hemming MP. Hemming is a leading campaigner against the secret courts and super-injunction gagging orders that are used to expedite the scandalous forced adoptions that were introduced by Blair. You can find much information and many links about this on Hemmimng’s blog:

    People actually threatened with losing their children through this unjust and inhuman system can find support and advice here:

    JimmyGiro does himself no favours with his rantings about “Feminazis” and “Manginas”, but he did mention this issue a few days ago. I was too busy to add a comment with links.

    Suhayl, thanks. I do hope the old man with the scythe stops following me for a bit, but of course he becomes a more frequent visitor as we age.

  119. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    20 Oct, 2012 - 12:31 am

    The visage of death follows us all, as we age, Clark. He hasn’t been picking on you.

  120. Jay, 19 Oct, 10:38 pm:

    “They be filling our lives with images of hard work, morals, and stability, peace, tranquility.”

    Well, peace and tranquillity will be in there, and maybe wholesome work, though not too hard. But mostly, they’ll advertise Objects of Desire, sold with sex and sauce, and they’ll let the debt that people get into frighten them into hard work. They know what appeals and what doesn’t. They’ll mention the former, and avoid the latter, I reckon.

  121. Encouraging paedophile grooming? Or just stupid software? I visited the Facebook page of a friend’s daughter recently; I didn’t even post or do anything there, I just looked. The next day, Facebook sent me, by e-mail, ten “Do you know?” suggestions, each with a “Friend Request” button. Of those ten, five were at school. Another three were at college. Hmmm…

    Edit – no, probably not not “paedophile”. More like hebephile or ephebophile, probably.

  122. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    20 Oct, 2012 - 1:01 am

    Facebook is a trench of commercialism, Clark. My spouse created an account in my name to get gifts through the embedded games, and I get fraudulent messages from ‘friends’ who have not sent leading me to those surveys which do not end, or produce anything except ad revenue for FB.

    Consider the source….

  123. I have spoken to an American friend who has interesting pictures taken in one of the ‘Hudson tubes’ that cross the Hudson river.

    It seems the ‘tube’ was a convenient means of transport in early 2001;)

    So if you see me coming down the road
    I’ll be much closer than you’ll ever know
    ‘Cause my vessel snakes beneath the waves
    It’s a little too late for making me stay

    Somebody told you, they couldn’t see
    That I was in it for you
    And you were in it for me

    But in a city of so many people
    You’ll find no one
    As you make your moves through Hudson Tubes
    And still no one

  124. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    20 Oct, 2012 - 1:02 am

    What is the trigger for moderation?

  125. It is vital that you do not use either the Facebook “Find My Friends” feature, or the “Facebook E-mail Integration” feature offered by some e-mail providers. The first of these asks for both an e-mail address, and the password that goes with it. The second is “offered” on your WebMail page, which of course already knows your e-mail password; all you have to do is tick a box.

    If you use either of these features, Facebook, and lots of Facebook “Applications” can log into your e-mail account and act just as if it were you. Your e-mail account is said to be “pwn’d”. If you’ve used these, untick the box, and change the password for your e-mail account.

    I know, I know, Facebook promises not to abuse your e-mail account, and to “forget” (ie delete) its copy of your e-mail password after you’ve used the Friend Finder. Do we trust Facebook to so much as close a cupboard? Not me, thanks!

    Ben, I do have a list of spam filter keywords somewhere. It’s hidden amongst my e-mails, I think. I’ll try to dig it out. More than one link gets your comment queued, too.

  126. OccupyLondon March tomorrow:

  127. Ben, you can imagine my consternation when I received a “Friend Request” for the Hispanic dating, gossip and gambling site, apparently from the seventy year old retired ambassador Brian Barder, via an e-mail address he’d never used with me:

    He’d been sent a friend request himself, apparently from a colleague of his. He’d dealt with it on his WebMail page, and the Quepasa e-mail had used the WebMail page’s JavaScript to start the sign-up procedure automatically. Within seconds, QuePasa had accessed Barder’s online contact list, and was sending out hundreds of “Friend Requests”, to senior politicians, political dissidents, authors, journalists… It took him weeks to clean up the mess.

  128. Mark, I’d best get to bed, as I want to be there tomorrow. Did you get my e-mail?

  129. Fuck Fscebook,MySpace,Twitter et al…

    Merely portals for spookdom to snoop without the expense of a full surevillance squad-or Full Pipe Take-as its better known.

    You probably dont get a gig with the BBC,Whitehall,The MSM without being,ahem,”groomed” for future blackmailabity.

    What a dark dark country this is revealing itself to be.

    I feel very ill and frightened.

  130. Jives, I wish you well. What can I offer? This system is not sustainable, so it will not be sustained. It will fall, eventually. Hang on in there, and Best wishes.

  131. I got your message, Mark. I’m off to bed now. I hope I bump into some of the people here tomorrow, at the demo.


  132. Thanks as always Clark.

    Your words and the goodly souls on this blog succour me.I’m grateful.

    Sleep well fella.

  133. I disagree that whistleblowing is all that rare. There are people everywhere who, within their own sphere influence and with the knowledge they have at their disposal speak out against wrong doing everyday. Whistleblowing isn’t the preserve of a saintly few, it’s what decent honest people do. To look for reasons and to be understanding of those who remained silent is to provide them not only with an excuse and a pardon, but somehow suggest that their behavior is quite typical, normal, understandable or morally neutral. That would be to undermine the best safeguard we have against wrong-doing of the real minority.

  134. I beg to differ about whistle-blowing being quite common, especially in the USA.

    Take the apparent murder of FBI agent Steve Ivens which occurred as the presidential campaign was heating up, but was simply buried with hardly a comment, much less a serious inquiry.

    Ivens was the resident agent in Burbank, California who learned through his contacts at its airport that competitors of the Russian airplane maker Sukhoi were planning to sabotage its Superliner 100 – an ideal carrier for its restricted service, once it was given the go-ahead by the FAA in February for purchase by American carriers.

    Ivens became more and more concerned by this criminal process, outside his Bureau responsibilities, and when the Sukhoi-100 was sabotaged, crashing into the Indonsian volcano, he started make all kinds of noises about it.

    Ivens was particularly concerned by the murder of one of its passengers, American Peter Adler, who worked out of Burbank, and was trying to assist its purchase.

    When Washington realised that Ivens was threatening to go official about it, it helped arrange his murder. When Obama came down to LA on Thursday, May 10th, as I recall, to go to a fundraiser at George Clooney’s LA home, but the President took a most curious way to get there – going out to Burbank by helicopter to meet its former Congressional representive, and coming back to LA by motorcade.

    Of course, this made Ivens responsible for seeing to the President’s security, and official scuttlebutt said that Steve – who was last seen staggering around his home that night, muttering to himself – was the source of concern.

    The next morning, he allegedly confronted the Russian consul in San Francisco – who was in an LA hotel visiting – that something terrible was afoot, and shouting out that “they are all insane”, making it look like he was some kind of Russian agent.

    Then he went running off to the hills, east of there, and was never seen again for 85 days until some hitch hikers found his bad decayed body a mere 100 yards from the Catholic Church he regularly attended in Burbank.

    The unprecedented Bureau and local police manhunt had some how missed it during that time. In the meantime, Obama’s campaign had collected $15 million from the Clooney-sponsored fundraiser – what got even Clint Eastwood involved in helping elect Mitt Romney President after Director Tony Scott had jumped off that LA bridge into the bay.

    While the politicization of Hollywood has captured everyone’s attention, Ivens’ fate has escaped unnoticed.

  135. Be there for us Mark and Clark. Good on you both for going. I cannot get there at the moment.

    This is a good one. The video is nicely savage and subversive but also informative. I like Will Potter at the end of the video whose decency shines out. I don’t think it was made entirely clear that the SHAC 7 protests happened in this country at Huntingdon Life Sciences and that the protesters are in jail.

    The powers-that-be are feeling edgy I would surmise.

  136. Ship to Gaza.

    ESTELLE.* Plus que 38 MILES NAUTIQUES SUR 5.000. Rapport à 9H (temps Europe centrale). 38 miles jusqu’à GAZA. Bon moral à bord. — *38 NAVAL MILES left of 5000! Report 9 AM CET. 38 naval miles left to Gaza. High spirits on board

    “Imaging Peace & War
    Compare the Estelle to one of the Israeli warships that may attack it

    ”Estelle is a steel-hulled 53-metre ship originally (1922) built for North Sea trawl fishing. Before being converted into a Fair Trade vessel in the 1980s, she spent about fifteen years hauling gravel from Vuolahti to Helsinki. In 2012 the Estelle was sold to Ship to Gaza Sweden for an attempt to break and lift the Gaza blockade.”
    Quotation from Estelle´s web page:{}

    ”The Protector is an integrated naval combat system, based on unmanned, autonomous, remotely controlled surface vehicles. Highly maneuverable and stealthy, the Protector can conduct a wide spectrum of critical missions, without exposing personnel and capital assets to unnecessary risk.
    The Protector’s anti-terror mission module payload includes sensors and weapon systems. The search radar and the Toplite electro-optical (EO) pod enable detection, identification and targeting operations. The weapon systems are based on Rafael’s Typhoon remote-controlled, stabilized weapon station, capable of operating various small caliber guns. The highly accurate, stabilized weapon station has excellent hit-and-kill probability.” According to the Jerusalem Post, the purpose of the Protector is ”stopping Palestinian fisherman from sailing outside their permitted area or preventing flotillas from sailing to the Gaza Strip”.
    Quotation from the Israeli weapon company Rafael´s web page: {}

  137. Leah McGrath Goodman’s website. There is a petition there to sign.

    As she says, it’s not about left and right, it’s about right and wrong. Exactly.

    ‘Today is not a day to focus on right-wing versus left-wing politics, but the difference between right and wrong.

    When a democratic government abuses its substantial legal, legislative and financial powers to crack down on journalists’ freedom of speech, force policemen and elected officials from their jobs and systemically dismantle its own checks and balances so as to deny each of its targets due process, clearly it is a government that has lost its way.’

  138. Israel has attacked the Estelle in international waters:

  139. I’m feeling pessimistic today. Optimism is easily found in discussion with the like minded but how many read this blog or attend your meeting compared to those who prefer strictly come dancing? All I see is the same old stranglehold.

    I have marched more times than I can remember. I cannot recall one that I would call a success. Today I will be buying tins of spam. I do not want to hear the same old speakers saying nothing.

    Occupy London is a joke. Anyone who was there will know it as an organisation that from before it started that mirrored the class divisions, deceptions and machi nations of those it camped against. Very depressing.

    The final straw for me this morning is Clarke linking to a Frank Zappa song. I have never understood our infatuation with the star system. And Zappa for chrissakes!

    Perhaps I got out of the wrong side of bed but I do believe our future is Greek and some.

  140. Topic: “The Extraordinary Rarity of Whistleblowing”



    And we say the Americans don’t get irony?


  141. Pauline Barten.

    20 Oct, 2012 - 10:26 am

    Really well written post, Craig. It is not just your job that you lose as a whistleblower it is your life as you knew it.The book Unperson, a life destroyed by Denis Lehane describes this much better than i ever could.Yet for everything i have lost in my personal whistleblowing, it is not all bad. I certainly never take anything for granted anymore and i can sleep at night because i did the right thing.My journey has led me to inner peace and that’s priceless.

  142. Sorry to hear that Nuid but as we know, Israel knows no law.

    See attack on MV Dignity at the outbreak of Cast Lead, again in international waters and in the night.


  143. Talking to a honest hardworking builder on tje subject of PVC panels on roofs mainly council. We agreed the absurbity of individua installations and especialy thise shaded by trees.

    We agreed that industrial units probably make better positions for many reasons, I think the desert sun being the best ecologicaly and maximum usage to pool energy.

    When I suggested his young son becomes a politician he saidhe doesn’t think much to.politiicians considering the fact that:

    They don’t sleep straight…..

  144. [Mod/Clark: The bulk of this comment has been moved to the 9/11 Post]:

    @Komodo – you say it only takes a minute to accept the official story on 911, […]

  145. The major demo in London today is an anti-austerity protest. I think it was initiated by the trade union Unison. I don’t know if the Occupy demo will be part of that, or something separate.

    Phil, sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you. I never got the impression that Zappa was part of the mainstream corporate hype. He helped lots of talented but underrated musicians, whereas the corporate system mostly ignores musicians, concentrating instead on singers, and occasionally front-line singer-players. He publicised corporate record deal rip-offs, eventually setting up independently, and he upset the US government by working with East Europeans. Maybe I shouldn’t have linked Dinah Moe Humm, but the lyrics of I am the Slime are spot on.

  146. “I noticed when living in Ireland, with a long history of occupation and rebellion, that there was a general disregard of the rules throughout the society (for good or ill), right down to every aspect of the Highway Code being taken as optional.” — kingfelix

    “a general disregard of the rules throughout the society”?
    That’s a pretty wild exaggeration. Especially for a society that had spent decades, if not hundreds of years, under the thumb of the Catholic Church, which scared the shit out of people from the age of seven onwards.

    Plus, I haven’t seen as much as one Greek-style protest on the streets here since the “bailout” + massive ‘austerity measures’ that have been put in place to pay for it. Enda Kenny goes to see Merkel and rolls over to have his tummy tickled … It’s downright embarrassing. But still there is no disorder on the streets.

    And as for this:

    “Has it not crossed your mind that Craig’s respectability might just derive from *not* subscribing to… “

    you do Craig a disservice with that implication. As Clark quoted, Craig wrote:

    “As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.”

    which leaves the door wide open to all sorts of different theories, in my view. And while there is/was a special thread for the subject, Craig was not engaged in it, for obvious reasons. It was a long and complicated thread, with many highly opinionated people involved. It was almost a full time job to keep up with it.

    Craig hasn’t written about the subject since AFAIK. But I gather that the number of Americans who don’t believe the “official version” of what happened is increasing by the month. And rightly so. The official version is a pile of crap.

    Clark, I’ll keep any other */** comments to the other thread.

  147. Interesting article by Seumas Milne:

    “The end of the New World Order”

    ‘The upheavals of the early 21st century have changed our world. Now, in the aftermath of failed wars and economic disasters, pressure for a social alternative can only grow’

  148. It is really important to keep in mind the differences between whistle-blowing, and just complaining about something, even most detailed and well-intentioned complaining.

    Whistleblowing is what MI6’s agent Gareth Willaims and his GCHQ associate Gudrun Loftus did by leaking secret material, especially the Afghan Log, to Julian Assange’s Wikileaks, resulting in its publication, and their apparent murder.

    Leaking important, secret information – what can cause all kinds of problems for covert government – is a deadly business these days, explaining why what little of vital importance is drying up steadily.

    To go on about what covert governmnet is doing, what I have an avocation in doing, only becomes deadly when the authorities think you have leaked information about something most hush-hush, or one is someone’s spy.

    The difference was brought home to me when John Young’s started posting my articles about individual spies, and the Pentagon’s manipulation of weather and land changes, thinking that I was being fed about these matters hy foreign governments, or some spies, working for them.

    When I met him for a professional discussion in June 2009 in New York City’s Riverside Park, he asked if I thought that the Agency was still trying to kill me – as it had during 1995-96 when I was an American exile, living in Portugal- I poohed, poohed the idea, only for him to volunteer that it was again out to get me.

    And it turned out to be true when the Swedish Security Service aka Säpo chased out a CIA hit squad which was attempting to poison me the previous February – what I only learned of last year.

    After that, especially learning that there was no evidence of my having leaked information or spying of anyone, thanks to their breaking into my house of determine what information I had on my computers or in my files while I was away in California for seven weeks, they tried unsuccessfully to entrap as ‘Jihad Jane’s aka Colleen LaRose’s Islamic lover/assassin of Swedish cartoonist Lars Vilks – the loony who drew all those insulting cartoons of The Prophet.

    The same distinctions were shown while Assange was getting away with posting leaked information while Williams and Loftus were simply disposed of.

    I am not mentioning this to elicit any support from others about my treatment as it comes with the territory but to indicate what is and what isn’t dangerous disclosures aka whistle-blowing.

  149. The reason people don’t blow the whistle is fear. Often the fear is justified. It’s the internalisation that’s irrational. Blacking things out mentally is a widespread social problem. In their ‘job’ roles, a lot of people act like bloody zombies.

    But in some cases, there’s not much irrationality at all.

    Take for example the case of Nicolas von Hoogstraten, the notorious thug landlord. Quite a few people who are reading this will have heard about him. He’s got huge residential property interests in Brighton as well as business interests in Zimbabwe. Pretty much everyone in the Brighton area knows that he acts above the law. I’m not aware of any journalist who’s written about him who thinks he’s ‘all mouth’ when he threatens to have people killed.

    A lot of tenants in the Brighton area, including many many students, have come up against enforcers from this notorious landlord’s organisation, e.g. being threatened with beatings if they start complaining that the landlord won’t fix what he’s contractually obliged to fix, or being forced out of their accommodation before the end of their tenancy etc., sometimes with their stuff chucked out on the street.

    The point I want to focus on is that housing advisers, whether they are at the Council or at Sussex University’s accommodation office, routinely advise tenants who are experiencing threats of violence that “he’s well-known, and we sympathise, but there’s nothing we can do. We always advise people in your situation to find somewhere else to live and to try to put it all behind them” People get the same advice from county court staff too.

    And as with Jimmy Savile’s crimes against people less powerful than himself, this has been going on not just for years but for decades.

    OK, who’s going to be first to blow the whistle?

  150. Golden Oldies

    20 Oct, 2012 - 11:50 am

    [Mod/Clark: Comment has been moved… Guess where?]

  151. Golden Oldies

    20 Oct, 2012 - 11:52 am

    sorry, posted on wrong thread. Oh well.

  152. Hot off the press. Breaking news ex Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Tel Aviv. Note ‘Israel says….’ No words from the passengers or crew on the Estelle are reported.

    Israel intercepts Gaza-bound boat
    The Israeli navy intercepts a Finnish-flagged boat of pro-Palestinian activists trying to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

  153. Talking of blowing the whistle at the BBC…

    Estelle intercepted: Israel navy stops Gaza-bound boat :

    20 October 2012 Last updated at 09:56 GMT

    Estelle intercepted: Israel navy stops Gaza-bound boat

    The Israeli navy has intercepted a boat of pro-Palestinian activists trying to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

    The Finnish-flagged Estelle left Naples on 7 October with some 20 people of eight different nationalities aboard.

    Israel imposed the blockade after the Islamist group Hamas seized control of the coastal sliver in 2007.

    An IDF spokesperson confirmed the navy had boarded the ship and that no-one had been injured, but provided no further details.

    So Hamas “seized control”, did they? I thought they were elected.

    And what’s with the reference to ‘interception’ and ‘stopping’, with the word ‘boarding’ only used in the final sentence? But full marks to the BBC editor who wanted to cover his arse by only using the word in a quote from the Israeli armed forces. He’ll keep his job. So will the headline writer who made sure it didn’t go in the headline.

    They forget to say that the Israeli armed forces boarded this ship in international waters. Well done.

    Thanks so much to the BBC for quoting what the Israeli armed forces have “confirmed” about what they’ve done.

    But what are the 20 victims or their organisation saying?

    What is the Finnish government saying?

    And the Swedish company that owns the ship?

    And the authorities of the countries of which the victims are nationals?

    Never mind. Who cares? Best wait for the government that has committed the crime to “provide information”, eh?

    Imagine if the Iranian navy boarded a civilian ship in international waters!

    Who at the BBC is going to blow the whistle on the fact that the organisation’s leadership is too scared ever to offend the Zionists?

    Although former BBC guy Alan Hart has at least done some good stuff.

  154. @nuid

    You clearly don’t know how to read my statement. *Compared* to the UK, there is a generally more open disregard for all sorts of rules in Ireland.

    The Catholic Church exerts a strong influence, but again, there have always been plenty of places in Dublin where a church, a bookie, and a brothel are within a minute’s walk of one another.

    Basically, you are taking issue with something you don’t understand. I’ve no idea why. I’m Irish, but grew up in the UK. I know both cultures well.

    Why not try and find something else to do than start a forensic investigation into a single comment of mine, particularly when far wilder claims on the same thread seem to have escaped your penetrating mind.

  155. @Mary – snap! (Although my post is awaiting moderation)

    [Mod/Clark: Released from queue, scroll up^ scroll up^]

  156. A fair Press TV report which does not include the anti-Hamas lie in the BBC report. They NEVER mention that Hamas won an election. How dare those naughty evil ‘Islamists’ do such a thing as hold an election.

    ‘Israel imposed the blockade after the Islamist group Hamas seized control of the coastal sliver in 2007.’

  157. The more I think about this the more I incline to the view that it has very little to do with fear of losing your job and much more to do with the content of your character. Think of those people who administer electric shocks to people in psychology experiments because they are told to by people in authority. Not all do, some refuse. What’s the difference? The whistleblowers are the ones who gave shelter to their Jewish neighbours on Kristalnacht. Those who did not speak out are the ones who shut the curtains and turned the wireless up loud. We British have a great sense of moral superiority over the Germans with respect to the rise of Nazism, but the flood of revelations about Jimmy Savile, twenty years too late, make it clear that we would have been no different.

  158. For anyone who’s interested in what the organisers of the Estelle aid ship are saying about its being attacked today in international waters by the Israeli armed forces, here is the organisers’ website:

    The disgusting BBC couldn’t manage to ask the organisers for their side, being too busy repeating what the Israeli attackers said.

    Here is what the organisers are saying:

    Estelle is being attacked

    According to Dror Feiler, spokesperson for Ship to Gaza Sweden, Estelle was attacked at 10.15 AM CET. Five or six military vessels surrounded Estelle. Soldiers wearing masks are now trying to board the ship. The attack took place on international waters: N31 26 E33 45

    Incidentally, that position is nearer Egypt than Gaza.

  159. If the Estelle was attacked in Egyptian territorial waters, then Israel is guilty of an act of war.

    Not that Egypt would respond, but what if people start attacking Israel’s international interests?

  160. In legal terms, the Israeli attack on the Estelle is an act of war against Finland. Indeed Israeli even threatened Finland beforehand.

    Although the most immediate consideration must be the whereabouts and wellbeing of the 20 civilians who have been taken prisoner, I wonder how long it will take the Israeli servicemen to start using the prisoners’ bank cards, as they did after the flotilla massacre?

  161. You are correct David R. Miles out and nowhere near Israeli waters.,33.75&spn=2.376276,3.433228&oe=UTF-8&t=m&z=8

    Sky News have just had Avital Liebovitz on from the Israel navy spouting the usual lies and propaganda. She is always wheeled out on these occasions just as Micky Rosenfeld from the state police is produced to comment on a land based incident if Regev is not available.

    I always laugh when I see this spoof You Tube produced after Mark Regev had done his best after the Mavi Marmara slaughter with his lying mock up of what happened on the top deck.
    He features as does Avital.

  162. @Nevermind. The position is not in Egyptian waters. It’s in international waters, to which the nearest dry land is in Egypt. (But Gaza is almost as close.)

    If the armed forces of one country attack a ship registered in another country, that is always an act of war. It doesn’t matter where the attack takes place.

  163. Has the organisers’ website at been attacked too? I’m not getting it to load.

  164. Psychopathic societies generally produce more own-trumpet blowers than whistleblowers. The Third Reich remains the best modern day example of what happens if nobody blows the whistle. Or if just a few people blow the whistle and the rest just march to the drum.
    Bring on the violins!

  165. “You clearly don’t know how to read my statement.” — kingfelix

    “Clearly” nothing. There is only one short answer to your condescension but I won’t post it here. You tried the same thing on another thread – all polite when you thought I was in the UK, but suddenly abrupt when you discovered where and who I was.

    “*Compared* to the UK, there is a generally more open disregard for all sorts of rules in Ireland.”

    As I said, wild exaggeration.

    “Basically, you are taking issue with something you don’t understand.”

    More tedious condescension.

    “I’m Irish, but grew up in the UK. I know both cultures well.”

    If you grew up in the UK, you don’t know Ireland like I do. I was not only born here, I grew up here, reared my children here, and lived my entire life here. Don’t attempt to lecture me.

    And didn’t you write,

    “I don’t believe timidity, in itself, arises from some essential component of the English character, but it may well have been drummed into most of us over the decades/centuries.” You seem to have some identity confusion that I don’t suffer from.

    “Why not try and find something else to do than start a forensic investigation into a single comment of mine”

    You made a sweeping and ridiculous assertion about Ireland, that’s why.

    “particularly when far wilder claims on the same thread seem to have escaped your penetrating mind”

    Sarcasm AND condescension. Well done. I’ll comment on what I want to comment on, not at your dictation, ‘kingfelix’.

    Now tell me: why hasn’t there been the same level of protest in Ireland since the “bust” as there has been even in the UK? (Not to mention Greece and Spain.) Not by students? Not by unions? Not by anyone in fact? Especially since (according to you) there is “open disregard for all sorts of rules” here? And you mentioned the word “rebellion”?

    I’m sure you’ll be able to write a dissertation on the subject, especially all the way from Taiwan. (Not that I’ll necessarily read it or reply to it, given your snotty attitude.)

  166. N_ Crashed due to overload or most probably taken down I should guess. They did that to the Mavi Marmara.

    High Seas. Freedom of the Seas etc.

  167. “Does the Romney family now own your e-vote?”

  168. High Seas. Freedom of the Seas etc.

    Thanks Mary. I need to bookmark that one.

  169. This is a good blog. It is tough to know what the answer is. I worked for one of the UK’s largest wealth managers and saw a director frequently abusing his position by insider dealing, front running client orders and overcharging. I mention it to superiors and they made it clear it was taboo. I managed to get out in the end but for a time I felt distressed by it. How do you blow the whistle then go home and tell your family the house will probably be repossessed and your career is over.

  170. A whois enquiry for returns the IP address:
    Anyone else, please check this for me.

    ping is successful…

    traceroute is very slow; here is traceroute output from the edge of my PlusNet connection onwards:

    5 55.264ms
    6 54.811ms
    7 56.025ms
    8 394.590ms
    9 55.142ms
    10 54.595ms
    11 105.566ms
    12 55.527ms
    13 79.435ms
    14 90.984ms
    15 91.277ms
    16 91.994ms
    17 98.832ms
    18 91.227ms
    19 93.046ms
    20 92.999ms
    21 92.191ms
    22 no reply *

    Help with interpretation would be appreciated.

  171. “Sir George Young”

    Gosh. Isn’t he up himself on his website? It’s like something from another age – St Mary Bourne, Lady Aurelia et al.

    I cannot find the photo of Jimmy Savile referred to by Sue in the comments which are nicely acerbic. I don’t even object to the language used. After all, Young’s predecessor was prone to using the odd four letter word. I can see why he uses a bike. Less chance of being found over the limit on two wheels rather than four in 1987. See Wikipedia.

    Jody Scheckter’s wife Clare bunged him £5,000 for his funds in 2010. What a waste. He also declares a pair of socks given to him when he opened a wool shop and then a paper knife and a bottle of wine. I think he is taking the piss out of the expenses regulations.

    He is a drip and a throwback to England’s class-ridden past.

  172. Today has turned out busy, and I was off to a late start. I’m not going to get to the demo.

  173. is loading properly again now, so probably the problem was just heavy demand for the site.

  174. technicolour

    20 Oct, 2012 - 2:45 pm

    Good grass roots site for march overage – video and tweets.

    Particularly like the tweets: –

    Overheard police reassuring the public “oh don’t worry, these people are law abiding citizens, they just don’t like this Government” #Oct20

    #Oct20 Right-wingers are always keen to tell us how Thatcher smashed the Trades Unions. So why are they so bothered about the marches today?

    and more!

  175. I wonder what is the difference between quotidian and everyday concerns?

  176. Beware of going anywhere near the Coq d’Argent restaurant, Poultry, London. This is the third suicide in five years from the roof. Surely they could prevent this happening by putting a climbproof fence around it. Shows the desperation of some working in the ‘city’.

    The man was married, lived in Surrey and was a father of three.

    Yesterday it was the ACC of Leics police who jumped in front of a train. Terrible for the train driver. There were allegations against him of financial fraud and also an offence for swapping his speeding points with his wife who worked for another police force. There is no mention of the condition of the train driver in this report.

  177. “ping is successful…”

    That’s a relief. Perhaps Craig could be persuaded to compose a brief humorous piece entitled “Technical Stuff” and then insist that all posts like that one are directed there.

  178. Thanks for that link to the open seas UN preamble,Mary, very apt. I hope that those on board are refusing to communicate with these pirates and that their Government’s will raise hell to let Netanyahu know that his interests abroad are going to get frozen and blocked unless he releases these people unharmed and instantly.

    Once again we see that the laws are flouted, that Israel can flout Greece’s territorial waters with impunity and that it does not care about international law.

    But it is Israel that invokes and uses this international law to get back what’s rightfully theirs, uses this same law to find and apprehend the third Reich’s murderers, using this same law, justice and courts to get their justice.

    But the Zionist Jekyll’s reject to act up and respect this law when it goes against their interests, their paranoia. They have no right to refuse Ghaza a working harbour, so it can better its economy and revitalise its trade. They have no moral right or reason to ignore the law they themselves call upon for justice.

    Paranoia, self destroyer!

  179. HM Queen and P Andrew are guests of the Qatari royal family at Ascot today. Their outfit QIPCO are staging ‘the richest event in this country’s horseracing history’ to rival the Breeders’ Cup and the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe.

    Perhaps P Andrew is doing some arms sales on the side.

    Frankel has just won the big race. Strange dichotomy. People are marching in London against austerity and a massive crowd is at Ascot cheering a horse. No recession is being felt by the attendees obviously.

  180. William Smart

    20 Oct, 2012 - 5:15 pm

    >>>>>>>>> That is why BBC producers who knew about Savile, saw him at it, did not blow the whistle on one of the Corporation’s biggest stars. It is why so few whistleblowers spontaneously come forward who have seen corruption in local government planning departments or defence procurement, to give an example. For most white collar crime there are people who are not directly involved bu see it and keep quiet. There is also the deterrent of self-incrimination – after a time silence becomes complicity. <<<<<<<<<<

    That's an inadequate explanation.

    Enormous numbers of people just don't mind being lied to – as can be seen over the USS Liberty case. Israel has now admitted that the photographs issued on its behalf by AJ Cristol are fraudulent, and yet the dam has still not broken.

    Even the mothers of servicemen have failed to demand that the truth of Pat Tillman's death be dragged out of the people who've lied about it and covered it up.

    With cowardice on this scale, the chances of the human race being justly treated in the future must be slim.

  181. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    20 Oct, 2012 - 5:47 pm

  182. whoever destroyed these carvings, has destroyed themselves. This self hate manifestation, the defacing of one’s ancestors messages, points to a serious discrepancy within their beliefs.
    Not even a child would have done such foolish act.

  183. @Mary @Clark

    According to the organisers of the Estelle aid mission, their website at (for pages in English, tag ‘/en’ on the end) is being “targeted in a coordinated attack”.

    This is what I expected.

    Here is their message:

    At the moment our website is targeted in a coordinated attack. Website may be unaccessable for periods of time. We are working on a solution. Keep up to date through Facebook and Twitter #Estelle

    Unfortunately the fact that they are working on a solution only at this stage suggests naivete on their part, which is quite frightening. There is therefore all the more reason for supporters to spread their communications, not just using Twitter and the CIA-created Facebook, but using every means we can.

    In legal terms, the attack is not simply “piracy”; it is an act of war, because it was carried out as an official act by the armed forces of one country against a ship registered in another country, whose passengers and crew had every damned right to be doing what they were doing, under Finnish law and under international maritime law. (Our host Craig can confirm this.)

    The most important immediate matter is the wellbeing of the prisoners.

    Here are their names, birthdates, and nationalities.

    Their numbers comprise 5 with Greek nationality, 1 Canadian, 4 Norwegian, 11 Swedish, 1 Spain, 3 with nationality papers from the Zionist entity, 2 Finnish, 2 Spanish, and 1 Italian.

    5 of them are members of parliaments.

    Their ages range from 23 to 79.

    Demands must of course include their immediate release.

    Kodelas Dimitios Greece 02/01/1979 (MP)
    Tiktopoulos Mikhalis Greece 24/12/1946
    Stamellos Loukas Greece 22/06/1979
    Diamantopoulos Evangelos Greece 20/04/1980 (MP)
    Piassas Evangelos Greece 02/04/1947

    Manly James Canada 29/10/1932 (former MP)

    Hagen Aksel Norway 10/04/1953 (MP)
    Hammervold Jan Petter Norway 1944-27-03
    Reksten Herman Elias Norway 1989-10-06
    Sjøstrøm Nils Johan Norway 1963-11-10

    Britton Sven Sweden 14/06/1938 (MP)
    Opperdoes Joel Arvid Alexander Sweden 1983-06-20
    Andreasson Charles Bertil Sweden 1965-03-10
    Särner Daniel Karl-Erik Sweden 1985-12-16
    Uddebrant Johan Lars OS Sweden 1981-06-28
    Widell Anders Nils Olof Sweden 1986-07-11
    Feiler Dror Sweden 1951-31-08
    Svenberg Kristian Sweden 02-07-1947
    Boethius Maria-Pia Sweden 09/04/1947
    Gardell Mattias Sweden 10/08/1959
    Vinthagen Stellan Sweden 13/10/1964

    Sixto Ricardo Spain 07/01/1967 (MP)

    Elhanan Elazar Israel 1977-04-01
    Mor Reut Israel 09/08/1982
    Shapira Yonathan Israel 12-02-1972

    Koivisto Velimati Finland 1968-03-01
    Jämiä Mika Finland 1959-09-06

    Arau Crusellas Laura Spain 02/05/1980
    Zabale Gouzalet BegoÒa Spain 09/01/1950

    Ramazzotti Stockel Marco Italy 17-09-1947

  184. Sadly these good people do not seem to have been well-prepared on the media front. Help them, whoever can.

    “Ship to Gazas web site attacked
    Publiceringsdatum: 2012-10-20

    “It is not only Ship to Gaza´s Estelle which has been targeted by attackers. At the same time as Estelle was hijacked our web site,, was attacked, which resulted in inavailability for several hours. Our IT-experts state that these attacks were intentional and well planned. Ship to Gaza is considering the option to report the incident to the police.”

  185. “Sadly these good people do not seem to have been well-prepared on the media front. Help them, whoever can.”

    Posted on Twitter …

  186. Gaza press conference condemning the attack on Estelle

    (Facebook I’m afraid)

  187. George Harris

    20 Oct, 2012 - 6:52 pm

    Did any member of the royal family visit the Haut de la Garenne children’s ‘home’?

    Were any ever on Jersey at the same time as Jimmy Savile?

    Savile kept several houses around the country. None of them were big mansions. This is behaviour very similar to that of Marc Dutroux in Belgium. In one of them, near Glencoe, he entertained his friend Prince Charles, and provided three young females, wearing the letters ‘H’ ‘R’ and ‘H’ on their clothes.

    Of course nothing about this is suspicious in any way at all.

    Let’s stay as deferential as possible towards our ‘betters’. After all, journalists get banned from the UK all the time. Well, actually, they don’t.

    At Stoke Mandeville, where they opened a cafe called ‘Jimmy’s’ in tribute to Savile, he was pictured wearing two ID cards, one for Robert de Niro and the other for Al Pacino. This man was clearly above the normal rules. That only ever happens with high-level say-so. Let’s not blame the security guards, right?

    The Yorkshire Ripper connection is also very interesting. We have Savile’s ‘friendship’ with him at Broadmoor, to which he had the keys. (He what???) But that’s not all. One of the murders was carried out a matter of yards away from one of Savile’s houses. (That’s if it wasn’t actually carried out inside.) You’ve got to admit, it’s a bloody big coincidence that later the two men were ‘friends’.

  188. Just to make sure that any belief we hold that it was state sponsored terrorism is crazy, there are 12 mentions of the word ‘conspiracy’ on that Huffpost page about the new 9/11 Truther film.

    The word ‘truther’ itself carries some baggage.

    Urban dictionary –

    A now stereotypical, thereby ad-hominem label for an individual who is sceptical about world events. Such scepticism largely emanated from the events of 9/11.

    Some individuals embrace the term while others see it as a convenient label to paint all with the same brush.

    Pro: I’m a truther, I look at the empirical evidence that wasn’t in the official 9/11 commission report.

    Con: You’re just another one of those “truthers”! Inside job people.

  189. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    20 Oct, 2012 - 7:14 pm

    “The word ‘truther’ itself carries some baggage.”

    So does ‘progressive’ and ‘liberal’.

    To that I say, don’t hide your warts; decorate them.

  190. MJ, I did say I was sorry about deleting your 9/11 comment. You just happened to be one of the first to post after my moderation notice; I’m sorry that I didn’t copy your comment across as I did with the others. There is some activity on that thread if you want to join in, follow this link:

  191. May I also blow a whistle? Komodo seems to me somewhat of a sleeper who has to listen to his master’s voice when certain topics are raised. Or perhaps he or she or they is just a plain stupid lizard, David Icke tells us about. As our lizard believes that Wikipedia is the source of ultimate wisdom in these days, may I ask those who find my pathetic rumbling too confusing to look up “sleeper agent” in that well of knowledge.

  192. N_, 20 Oct, 6:24 pm: Yes, my results could be compatible with an attack upon the site; maybe I just caught the end of a phase of it. Strange, however, that the attack is not consistent, nor intense enough to keep people off the site entirely. I do hope that this indicates that Israel is short of support.

    Further good news is that DNS translation from the URL to the IP address seems to remain unaffected. This shows that the power of Israel’s agents is limited; they cannot get the site’s URL removed from the Domain Name System.

  193. Karelo, Wikipedia is our encyclopaedia; ours, the people’s. If you find that it is wrong or incomplete, please go and edit it. Preferably, create an account. You’ll find me there; I’m Clark42.

    You do have to obey the rules, however, and I don’t pretend that they are perfect. You need to back up your contributions with a reliable source. But having Wikipedia is a huge improvement over it not existing at all.

    Karelo, Komodo is a fine contributor here, who does excellent research. You didn’t say what party you suspect him of being a “sleeper” for, but I’ll bet you’re wrong. Komodo is a Good lizard!

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