Why Should Ukraine Not Split?

by craig on February 25, 2014 8:10 am in Uncategorized

There had never been an Ukrainian nation state until the last twenty five years.  The boundaries of the old Soviet Socialist Republics were never intended to define nation states, and indeed were in part designed to guard against forming potentially dangerous cohesive units.  The Ukrainians are a nation and f they wish are certainly entitled to a state, but that its borders must be those defined, and changed several times, by the Soviet Union for the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic is not axiomatic.

It is not true that there is a general desire for secession for Ukraine on the linguistic and broadly West East split.  It is true that key political attitudes do correlate closely to the linguistic split, with Russian speakers identifying with the ousted government, and favouring closer ties with Russian over closer ties with the West, while Ukrainian speakers overwhelmingly favour EU integration.  But that does not translate into a general desire by the Russian speakers to secede from a Ukraine that goes the other way.  The key to this is that two thirds of Russian speaking Ukrainian nationals view themselves as ethnically Ukrainian, not Russian.  Only a third of Russian speakers, a sixth of the general population, regard themselves as ethnically Russian.  It does appear to be true that among those who view themselves as ethnically Russian, there is a significant desire for union with Russia, and that there is probably a majority in some Eastern provinces for that idea, probably including Crimea.  But the area involved is far smaller than the linguistically Russian area.

Ethnicity is of course a less tangible concept than linguistic identity, and has little claim to objective reality, particularly in an area with such turbulent history of population movement.  But it is futile to pretend it has no part in the idea of a nation state, and is best regarded as a cultural concept of self-identification.

The historical legacy is extremely complex.  Kievan Rus was essential to the construction of Russian identity, but for Russia to claim Kiev on that basis would be like France claiming Scandinavia because that is where the Normans came from.  Kievan Rus was destroyed and or displaced by what historical shorthand calls the Mongal hordes, almost a millennium ago.  Ukrainian history is fascinating, the major part of it having been at various times under Horde, Lithuanian, Polish, Krim Tartar, Galician, Cossack Federation, Russian and Soviet rule.

Still just within living memory, one in seven Ukrainians, including almost the entire intellectual and cultural elite, was murdered by Stalin.  An appalling genocide.  Like Katyn a hundred times over.  That is the poisonous root of the extreme right nationalism that has rightly been identified as a dangerous element in the current revolution.  Pro-western writers have largely overlooked the fascists and left wing critics have largely overlooked Stalin.  His brutal massacre and ethnic cleansing of the Krim Tartar is also relevant – many were forcibly deported to Uzbekistan, and I have heard the stories direct.

Having served in the British Embassy in Poland shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union, I regard as blinkered those who deny that membership of the European Union would be a massive advantage to Ukraine.  In 1994 there was very little difference in the standard of living in both countries – I saw it myself. The difference is now enormous, and that really means in the standard of living of ordinary working people.  Poland’s relationship with, and eventual membership of, the European Union has undoubtedly been a key factor.  Those who wish Ukraine instead to be linked to the raw commodity export economy of Putin’s Russia are no true friends of the working people. Ukraine’s accidental boundaries include, of course, the great formerly Polish city of Lvov.

Ukraine is an accidental state and its future will be much brighter if it is a willing union.  It needs not just Presidential and Parliamentary elections, but also a federal constitution and a referendum on whether any of its provinces would prefer to join Russia.  That can give an agreed way forward to which Russia might also subscribe, and defuse the current crisis.  It would suit the long term interest of both the Ukraine and the West.  I fear however that the politicians will be too macho to see it.




Tweet this post


1 2 3 4

  1. BrianFujisan

    25 Feb, 2014 - 8:51 am

    well said Crag…

    here is a very detailed piece –

    The Road to Moscow Goes Through Kiev: The Protests in Ukraine Transformed into a Coup That Can Target Russia

    By Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya

    The Road to Moscow Goes Through Kiev: The Protests in Ukraine Transformed into a Coup That Can Target Russia @


  2. BrianFujisan

    25 Feb, 2014 - 8:53 am

    OOOPS…. Sorry about the Name Misspell Craig

  3. Will Putin stand by and watch?

    The Russian Stronghold in Ukraine Preparing to Fight the Revolution
    Lawmakers and worried citizens in the pro-Russia Crimea consider their options


    Reminder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

    I think I heard that there are over 24,000 troops based there.

  4. More asset grabbing at work,
    Human rights beyond that of tax avoidance and oligarchy should be addressed,and won’t be within the current system.

    Q1. Salmond what about tax havens.

  5. From Craig’s post:

    The boundaries of the old Soviet Socialist Republics were never intended to define nation states, and indeed were in part designed to guard against forming potentially dangerous cohesive units.
    Ukraine is an accidental state and its future will be much brighter if it is a willing union. […] I fear however that the politicians will be too macho to see it.

    But a single nation with internal enmity is more easily manipulated than a strong one, to either the Western power-bloc or to Russia. So Craig’s sensible suggestion will probably get little favourable discussion by politicians and the mainstream / corporate / state media on either side of the propaganda divide.

  6. BrianFujisan

    25 Feb, 2014 - 9:23 am

    Looks Like Putin has Aready taken some measures Mary…According to Russian news site flot.com,

    Russian military ships carrying soldiers have arrived on Ukraine’s Crimean coast

    Russia’s large landing ship Nikolai Filchenkov has arrived near the Russia Black Sea Fleet’s base at Sevastopol, which Russia has leased from Ukraine since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991.

    The ship is reported to be carrying as many as 200 soldiers and has joined four additional ship carrying an unknown amount of Special Forces troops. Flot.com also reported over the weekend that personnel from the 45th Airborne Special Forces unit and additional divisions had been airlifted into Anapa, a city on Russia’s Black Sea coastline. In addition, it is believed that Russia’s Sevastopol base contains as many as 26,000 troops already,


  7. My grandmother and two of my aunt’s were raped, murdered, and then thrown into a ditch by marauding Ukrainian fascists looking for Jews and Poles in 1944, so, I’m rather sceptical about the history and merits of Ukrainian nationalism and what that particular set of stories and myths can lead to.

    I think it’s disturbing to see Western politicians cosying up to very dubious activists on the extreme right in the Ukrain, giving them support and empowering them in their struggle to topple the regime/government of Ukraine. I wonder how one deals and controls these militant and nationalist forces who now appear to hold power in the Ukraine, or at least those areas under their sway? Once the ultra-nationalist geni is out of the bottle how does one get it back in again? National Socialist stormtroopers are a funny bunch, ready to fight and die for what they believe in on the baricades, how many people really believe democrats and liberals have been bleeding and killing on the frontline, don’t people like that have better things to do with their time than that?

    If, if, this isn’t another genuine peoples’ revolution, but a carefully orchestrated coup, spearheaded by militant neo-fascist streetfighters, isn’t that cause for concern? What if the new regime is weaker and worse than the old one and Ukraine slides even deeper into chaos and anarchy? Why should the stormtroopers accept less than total power? If a few thousand fighters can bring down a weak and unpopular government why shouldn’t they attempt to seize power for themselves? Have Europe’s and the Americans thought this through properly, or have they been so obsessed with toppling the regime and underming Russia and Putin’s prestige, that they don’t really care who they work with and the pontentila consequences of empowering the far-right, so long Russia is rolled-back?

  8. BrianFujisan

    25 Feb, 2014 - 9:51 am

    Writeon… Sorry to hear of that sad time in your Family history… Truly Evil

    Re the west involvement Anonymous Ukraine have been in the thick of it.

    Anonymous Ukraine releases Klitschko e-mails showing treason

    Anonymous Ukraine is operating in what can only now be described as a war zone and the security measures they are forced to take are extreme. A member of Anonymous Ukraine who wishes to remain anonymous spoke to the Voice of Russia about the operations and the recent release of e-mails between Vitaly Klischko and the Lithuanian Presidential advisor. The e-mails show that Klitschko was intentionally planning to destabilize the country, is being instructed and funded from abroad and has his accounts in Germany.

    more on this, and Emails at Bottom of page @


  9. Here’s a map of the Ukrainian parliamentary election results 2012:


    The 2010 presidential run-off shows a broadly similar split (sorry about special characters in the web address):


    Further information about Ukrainian elections here:


  10. It’s all very well arguing that individual Ukrainians would be better off as members of the EU, but would the world be better off with US bases on the Russian border.

    Neither is it totally clear that EU interest in Ukraine is any more than part of a plan to further hem in the Russians, which is probably why the deal they offered was so poor.

    Western Ukraine is in a particularly bad way economically, whilst the East is somewhat better off.

    I’m not sure the EU is in any position to bail-in Western Ukraine, never mind the whole country.

    Anyway, Putin can always turn off the gas supply. Despite the events, Russia looks to be in much the stronger position.

    Poland has been out of the Great Game for quite some time so perhaps that explains why they don’t appear totally concerned about the potential for chaos on their borders, or perhaps it’s just their hatred of Russians trumping all. The EU too of course seems rather unconcerned about unleashing chaos on their border, but perhaps they just do what the US wants even when they’re the ones paying the price.

  11. That’s all fine and dandy, Craig, but my concern is that the main power on the streets, at least in Kiev, seems to be armed fascists. There are also questions about which foreign groups fund and support the neoliberal opposition, and why.

  12. “But a single nation with internal enmity is more easily manipulated than a strong one, to either the Western power-bloc or to Russia. So Craig’s sensible suggestion will probably get little favourable discussion by politicians and the mainstream / corporate / state media on either side of the propaganda divide.”

    No, the opposite is the case, the smaller states are easier to control and manipulate. Much of US foreign policy has been aimed at the balkanisation of states.

    If they can just get a part of Ukraine into the EU, then into NATO, then build their missile bases America will be more than happy.

  13. “Ukraine’s interim President Olexander Turchynov has warned of the dangers of separatism following the ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych.”


    Surely this Separatism is an inevitable product of the actions of Turchynov and his chums.

    It was they who were involved in the coup which toppled the democratically elected president of the whole country and they did so in their own sectional interests in full knowledge of the divisive nature of their enterprise.


  14. “Venezuela: Reports Arrest of Arab Mercenary in Aragua State”


  15. Ukraine: Russia Warns Of ‘Dangerous’ Dilemma

    Sergei Lavrov says choosing between Russia and the West is “counterproductive”, as the formation of a new government is delayed.


  16. Mary

    How can country’s be in such debt?

    It comes after acting leaders in Ukraine said they need $35bn (£21bn) to avoid defaulting.

    The United States is ready to provide financial support to boost an International Monetary Fund (IMF) aid programme.

    This situation is ridiculous. The whole system needs reforming.

    Any ideas?

  17. This post is a real curate’s egg. Of course, a federal constitution, and referenda in those southern and eastern regions that may wish to secede, is an ideal solution. Truly federal arrangements, and referenda to decide on final status, is also the ideal solution to the Tibetan and Kashmiri problems- but the ideal solution hasn’t a snowflake in hell’s chance of realisation at the present day in any of these scenarios.

    Macho posturing, whether by global powers (the US), regional powers (China, Russia, India) or wannabe powers (the EU)is a geopolitical fact of life, and power plays by such actors have a habit of frustrating outcomes which the local participants, if left alone, could arrive at themselves.

    A couple of other quibbles; yes, Lviv could be described as ‘the great formerly Polish city of Lvov’. You could also call it ‘the great formerly Habsburg city of Lemberg’. And yes, Polish living standards have risen over the last 20 years whereas Ukrainian living standards have lagged. Membership of the EU has led to the relocation of much light manufacturing ,(eg car assembly) to the new members in the East (to the detriment of ‘old Europe’), remittances from Polish workers resident in the UK and Ireland have undoubtedly trickled down, and CAP and Cohesion fund monies have also helped Poland greatly (even though there isn’t a level playing field in the CAP for the accession states). But there’s the rub- full membership of the Ukraine ain’t gonna happen , as the Ukraine would bankrupt the CAP (given the size of its agricultural sector) and likely bankrupt the Cohesion fund as well.

    Another fly in the ointment in fast tracking EU membership for the Ukraine is that it will seriously piss off the Turks. So far, I think only the comment piece below has pointed out this uncomfortable truth-


  18. Ba'al Zevul (Etc)

    25 Feb, 2014 - 12:02 pm

    ‘Another fly in the ointment in fast tracking EU membership for the Ukraine is that it will seriously piss off the Turks.’

    If the Turks aren’t seriously pissed off already it would be a wonder. But letting in the Turks would piss off the Greeks…. Erdoğan’s looking east now, in any event, and probably having cosy chats with Russia as well. It’s just a short hop from Trabzon to Sochi.

  19. Paul Craig Roberts explains some of the background to the Ukrainian coup, the US part in it and the madness of US policymakers:


  20. Missing from Murray’s analysis is the critical role played in the “revolution” by fascist elements supported and fomented by the United States. What happened in Kiev was not so much a peaceful democratic revolution as depicted, for example, on the BBC, but rather a violent insurrection amounting to a coup.

  21. fred, 10:12 am

    No, the opposite is the case, the smaller states are easier to control and manipulate.

    Yes, smaller states are more vulnerable, but divided states are also less stable than cohesive states. But if a large state splits, the result is two smaller states. If either of those states gains stability and cohesion as a result of the split, the two effects can work in opposite directions.

    If they can just get a part of Ukraine into the EU, then into NATO, then build their missile bases America will be more than happy.

    Yes; whole or part, it’d all be gain for the Western power-bloc. I’d rather say that “… America should be more than happy”, especially considering the enhanced stability and the long range of modern missiles. But I bet each superpower would prefer to gain major influence over the entire territory; as Craig said:

    I fear however that the politicians will be too macho to see it.

  22. If the Ukraine, a most divided country, is not split, it will continue to be a target by the Wes in its mission to dismember Russia and what is left of the USSR – what the West embarked on when it staged the Orange Revolution.

    Putin is such an enemy of the West, starring with his counter measures when the Anglo-Americans wanted to take out the USSR with a non-nuclear war, triggered by Olof Palme’s assassination, that it will continue to exploit the divisions in a still united Ukraine until it topples the regime in Moscow.

    With Moscow getting the eastern part of Ukraine – what is really just a strategically important Russian enclave – Russia’s global isolation, especially to the world’s waterways, will be ended, and it will behave like a less paranoid state.

  23. Daniel

    “That is the poisonous root of the extreme right nationalism that has rightly been identified as a dangerous element in the current revolution.” You seem to have missed that bit.

  24. Craig, sorry, yes I did.

  25. No doubt Uncle Joe was a bad guy, but some feel he was just apathetic. rather than purposeful in the case of Holodomor.


    “The reasons for the famine are a subject of scholarly and political debate. Some scholars suggest that the man-made famine was a consequence of the economic problems associated with changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialization.[25][26][30]
    Collectivization also contributed to famine in 1932. Collectivization in the USSR, including the Ukrainian SSR, was not popular among the peasantry; and forced collectivisation led to numerous peasant revolts. The First Five-Year Plan changed the output expected from Ukrainian farms, from the familiar crop of grain to unfamiliar crops like sugar beets and cotton. In addition, the situation was exacerbated by poor administration of the plan and the lack of relevant general management. Significant amounts of grain remained unharvested, and – even when harvested – a significant percentage was lost during processing, transportation, or storage.
    However, it has also been proposed by certain historians that the Soviet leadership used the man-made famine to attack Ukrainian nationalism, and thus the man-made famine may fall under the legal definition of genocide.[24][25][26][27][28] For example, special and particularly lethal policies were adopted in and largely limited to Soviet Ukraine at the end of 1932 and 1933. “[E]ach of them may seem like an anodyne administrative measure, and each of them was certainly presented as such at the time, and yet each had to kill.”[52] A 2011 documentary, Genocide Revealed, presents evidence for the view that Stalin and the Communist regime (not necessarily the Russian people as a whole) deliberately targeted Ukrainians in the mass starvation of 1932–1933”

  26. Can you believe the crap the Western media is taking seriously now – e.g., Moscow stoking up separatism sentiment in the Crimea as if Kiev has already has not already done more than enough, the former President of Georgia Saakasvili, of all people, telling anyone who will listen that Yanukovych boasted to him on many occasions of his massive corruption in the Ukraine, its parliament now calling upon the Hague to try the alleged former Ukrainian president for war crimes, etc.!

    Talk about war-mongers being in a hurry!

  27. “Half a league, half a league,
      Half a league onward,
    All in the valley of Death,
      Rode the six hundred.
    ‘Forward, the Light Brigade!
    Charge for the guns’ he said:
    Into the valley of Death
      Rode the six hundred.
    ‘Forward, the Light Brigade!’
    Was there a man dismay’d?
    Not tho’ the soldiers knew
      Some one had blunder’d:
    Theirs not to make reply,
    Theirs not to reason why,
    Theirs but to do and die:
    Into the valley of Death
      Rode the six hundred.
    Cannon to right of them,
    Cannon to left of them,
    Cannon in front of them
      Volley’d and thunder’d;
    Storm’d at with shot and shell,
    Boldly they rode and well,
    Into the jaws of Death,
    Into the mouth of Hell
      Rode the six hundred.”

  28. Was it really about religion?

    No. We are good at going to war and killing. Look at the number of casualties in the table on the right hand side. Hundreds of thousands, yet again.


  29. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 5:30 pm

    “No doubt Uncle Joe was a bad guy, but some feel he was just apathetic. rather than purposeful in the case of Holodomor.”

    Craig – for God’s sake please intervene occasionally when you see bollocks like this and give the “commenter” a good kick. Stalin “apathetic”? It sounds like those apologists and useful fools in the 1930s who, during the Great Terror, said “Oh, it’s all the NKVD, if Stalin knew he would put a stop to it”

  30. Try reading comprehension. It’s a wonderful practice.

  31. Habbabkuk

    Ben is quite entitled to his opinion – I think he is wrong, but my article already makes that plain.

  32. My point was not to dismiss Stalin’s bloodlust, craig. The rhetoric around his deeds sometimes reaches mythical scale, and it’s easy to dismiss the complex circumstances around Holodomor. Collectivization was unpopular in the Ukraine, and the switch from grains to other produce was traumatic. Stalin certainly did little to assist the famine relief, but he did rely on the production of crops which had to be done by People, so I wonder if genocide was his intent. That is all.

  33. At least in Poland before 1990 millions of people weren’t obliged to leave the country to find work, just to be able to feed their families, as they are now.

  34. O/T But just spotted this.



    (London) CAGE is outraged by the arrest of our Outreach Director, Moazzam Begg. A former Guantanamo Bay detainee, he has been campaigning for due process and the human rights of victims, despite suffering over three years of torture and abuse by the US government with the complicity of the British security services.

    This latest action is designed to ensure that any travel to Syria is deemed suspicious. It follows a concerted campaign of harassment against Muslim individuals and charities involved in providing humanitarian aid to the victims of the Syrian crisis. Moazzam Begg is just the latest individual drawn by the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria who has been labelled a terrorist .The purpose is to intimidate and vilify the wider Muslim community so that they are prevented from delivering much needed aid to the Syrian people.

    Moazzam is an internationally recognised figure on issues relating to due process and human rights. His advocacy on behalf of the Guantanamo Bay detainees has been recognised across the world, resulting in various governments accepting detainees who could not be returned to their countries of origin.

    Cerie Bullivant, Media Officer of CAGE said:

    “Moazzam has been very open about his international travel and his objectives, including importantly exposing British complicity in rendition and torture. The timing of Moazzam‘s arrest given his travel to Syria took place in December 2012 requires a detailed explanation. The timing coincides with the planned release of a CAGE report on Syria and a major news piece that was due to be televised soon. As with David Miranda it seems those who are engaged in exposing abuse of powers are targeted and smeared to prevent disclosure of vital evidence.”

    Full Press Release at http://www.cageuk.org/press-release/press-release-moazzam-begg-arrested-uncovering-western-complicity-rendition-and-tortur

  35. AA/squonk; All the West is Stalin now.

  36. Don’t you love the armed minority in the Ukraine getting its way, thanks to the rabid support in the name of democracy by all the similar elected representatives in the USA!

  37. This from Shiva, blogging on the Pink’un, it is obviously from the Ukraine.

    “Finding Yanukovych, thought to be hidden on a Russian Navel vessel in Sevastopol Crimea, is important. He has to answer to many crimes, but more import is the breakup of what became known as the ‘Family’, headed by his son, Oleksander the denist.

    This is a seriously large ‘group ‘who over rules all the over mafia clans in Ukraine. Yanukovych’s son Oleksander has organised it by giving a group of his mates all the key positions in Ukraine from which they amass hundreds of millons of $ for themselves and dad. Also Ukraines richest man Rinat Arkmetov, the owner of Shakhtar Donetsk and the main sponsor of Yanukovych Party Of Regions, gain great amounts of state cash, boasting his wealth to around 15 billion mark! Much of this money is invested in London and the UK, Arkmetov paid the highest price for a London apartment . It is also thought that Oleksander fled to London last week. There are many more in England.
    The runners and riders for the next elected Ukrainian President; Poroshenko, Turchinov, Yatsenyuk, Klitchko, Tyagnibok, Lutsenko, Tymoshenko.

    The name Turchinov is a strong contender, he is the acting Speaker and now President, has a lot of experience as has Yulia Tymoshenko, however my personal choice at the moment would be the World Champion boxer Vitali Klitchko.

    He has so far come through this crisis very well, always leading from the front, being with the crowds, keeping his cool when attacked even by his own side and fronting the meetings with the ruling Yanukovych Government. It might seem strange that a boxer could become the President of a very large and important country but rest assured he is no ordinary boxer and being able to speak many languages, German fluently, and well as a high education, I’m confident that he can act as the head statesman and help unit the country. Its going to be a great picture if he gets to greet Mr Putin, standing a foot above him! If Reagan the actor can lead America, why not Klitchko the boxer?
    We know where Klitchko made is money, there was no hiding in the ring.
    Thanks for your time. ”

    No I just read the Klitschko email saga from Ukraine anonymous, accusing him of having his accounmts in Germany, what a crime, he boxed out of Germany, an international athlete. Nobody moans that F! driver pay taxes in switzerland or have off shore accounts.

    He deliberately plotted to overthrow Yanykovych, well, yes he did, and so did many other MP’s, Yanukovych after all was involved in awarding large state contracts to mafia dons.

  38. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

    “The Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU) was registered as a party on October 16, 1995;[1][24] although the original movement was founded on October 13, 1991, in Lviv. The name of the party is said to have been an intentional reference to the Nazi Party in Germany.[25] Membership was restricted to ethnic Ukrainians, and for a period the party did not accept atheists or former members of the Communist Party. The SNPU’s official program defined itself as an “irreconcilable enemy of Communist ideology” and all other parties to be either collaborators and enemies of the Ukrainian revolution, or romanticists. During the 1994 Ukrainian parliamentary elections, the party presented itself as separate from both communist and social democrat platforms.[26][third-party source needed]
    In the 1998 parliamentary elections the party joined a bloc of parties (together with the All-Ukrainian Political Movement “State Independence of Ukraine”)[27] called “Less Words” (Ukrainian: Менше слів), which collected 0.16% of the national vote.[24][28][29] Party member Oleh Tyahnybok[30] was voted into the Ukrainian Parliament in this election.[30] He became a member of the People’s Movement of Ukraine faction.[30]
    The party established the paramilitary organization Patriots of Ukraine in 1999 as an “Association of Support” for the Military of Ukraine. The paramilitary organization, which continues to use the Wolfsangel symbol, was disbanded in 2004 during the SNPU’s reformation and reformed in 2005.[2] Svoboda officially ended association with the group in 2007,[31] but they remain informally linked,[32][33][34] with representatives of Svoboda attending social campaigns such as protests against price increases and leafleting against drugs and alcohol.[35] In 2014, Svoboda was noted for clashing with the far-right group Right Sector, a coalition which includes Patriot of ”

    Igor Myroshnychenko, and Svoboda sound a lot like the Tea Party. I’ve been trying to get a handle on ‘Neo-Nazi’ references on RT/SKY/IBT etc, and it’s starting to ring true, per Craigs comments.

  39. Just the same as they said about Saddam there Ben, the one time friend of the US.

    How the Media Got Played … Again

    The US Played Hardball Against Ukraine…and the EU

    The author speaks of Obama’s new found fondness for street riots.

    The author – Peter Lee edits China Matters. His ground-breaking investigation into the NSA, The NSA and Its Enablers, appears in the October issue of CounterPunch magazine. He can be reached at: chinamatters (at) prlee. org.

  40. N_

    Absolute tosh – there is no starvation in Poland, and ordinary people are much better off than they were in 1990. The idea that Polish immigration in the UK is driven by starvation is risible. And before 1990 they weren’t ALLOWED to leave, at all. Another way the current situation is massively better.

  41. the clergy have been quite activist, and that is a new wrinkle too. Putin and the Russian Orthodoxy have been in deep alignment.

    “The protesters represent every group of Ukrainian citizens: Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers (although most Ukrainians are bilingual), people from the cities and the countryside, people from all regions of the country, members of all political parties, the young and the old, Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Every major Christian denomination is represented by believers and most of them by clergy. The Crimean Tatars march in impressive numbers, and Jewish leaders have made a point of supporting the movement. The diversity of the Maidan is impressive: the group that monitors hospitals so that the regime cannot kidnap the wounded is run by young feminists. An important hotline that protesters call when they need help is staffed by LGBT activists.”

    But who are the identifiable secular activists? I noticed even after Y. had fled, balaclavas and face coverings were common. Everyone knows it’s not safe to come out yet.

    If truly a popular movement, I do hope the right wing does not dominate. I think they comprise 10% of the electorate, kinda like the Tea Party.

  42. @Craig – you’re building a straw man. If people leave the country because that’s the only way to feed their families, that doesn’t mean they actually choose to do so rather than starve – except in a literal-interpretation sense. I do admit that I was exaggerating. But the basic fact for most Polish people in Britain is that if they stayed in Poland they’d have a worse standard of living and they’d have even less security and more problems making ends meet from week to week than they do in Britain. Most Polish people here haven’t come to Britain to make their fortunes or with the ambition of rising into the middle classes.

    Many Polish people living in Britain or Ireland (most of whom plan to return to Poland) take shitty jobs in the building industry or in hotels etc., getting wages that in Britain are low but which are a lot higher than they’d get in Poland – and of course they’re sending money back to Poland. They are low-paid guestworkers, economic migrants. They come to Britain in response to poverty in Poland. Yes of course there are some exceptions.

    “ordinary people are much better off than they were in 1990.”

    Did you consider social security before you wrote that?

    Do you think Polish workers in their 20s who are sleeping half a dozen to a room in Britain are better off than they would have been if they’d been in Poland in 1985?

    And before 1990 they weren’t ALLOWED to leave, at all.

    I take your point, but it’s unfortunate that you over-egg the pudding by shouting and then using the amplificatory modifier “at all”.

    I’ve admitted I was exaggerating, but now you’re doing the same.

    There was a lot of emigration from Poland between the 1950s and 1980s – mostly of people classified as ethnically German but many people adopted that label for convenience only. And some Jews too were more or less kicked out. A lot of them were working class non-graduates who weren’t at the level of physical fitness that would have been demanded by the Zionists had any of them expressed a desire to settle in Palestine. Passport restrictions were tightened in the early 1980s at the time of martial law, but they were relaxed shortly after the middle of that decade. Some workplaces in Sweden had considerable numbers of Polish emigrants and seasonal guestworkers before 1990.

  43. I thought that this thread was about what should or would happen in the Ukraine.

  44. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Feb, 2014 - 9:28 pm


    But somehow Poles are dreadful when remembering those times (before 1990). What a f…king bulls..it. I guess when Russian tanks were rolling over Budapest in 1956 was good times too?

  45. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 9:33 pm


    Now that – in response to Craig’s rejoinder – you’ve admitted twice that you were exaggerating, would you let us know WHY you were exaggerating?

  46. An ironic title here from Michel Chossudovsky.

    There are No Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. And the Obama Administration does not support Fascists
    “We are putting our hopes in a new generation of politicians”


    Some grim photos. Plenty of McCain and one of Nuland.

  47. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Feb, 2014 - 9:43 pm

    Interestingly, I presume most of the people discussing this issue (in Ukraine) have either never been to Ukraine or been there for short time, not enough to have any understanding of its society. So discussion on this blog about future of Ukraine and causes of this conflict reminds me debates European colonial powers had in 1940th-60th when colonialism in its classical term was crumbling. 1 in 7 murdered by stalin is culmination of what was happening in Ukraine since raise of Moscow kingdom. Russian chauvinism has many crimes to answer to and not at least genocide of other Slavs including of who is now known as Ukrainians. Those who have even little understanding of stalins national policy would understand all the background of crisis in Ukraine. Ans yet majority of well intentioned by narrow minded individuals here propose that Ukrainians (or at least their right wing) are the ones who are to be blamed in this crisis.

    Shame on you bloody leftists. Shame on those who see no grater enemy than west and who from their comfortable British armchairs prefer to give no toss about struggle of those who have been oppressed for centuries.

  48. And before 1990 they weren’t ALLOWED to leave, at all. Another way the current situation is massively better.

    Nope. You’re multiplying one premise into two. The freedom to go to a place that’s worse wouldn’t make the place you’re in any better.

  49. Uzbek; Though bereft of firsthand experience, I struggle to discover anything more than superficial information, often contradicted by one party, supported by the other, with western Media at the helm of that ship. That’s why outsiders inquire about such matters with interest. I don’t have a local dog in this fight, nor an agenda, except that I don’t necessarily trust sources who might.

  50. More ‘biased ‘ information on the owner of Schaktac Donetsk, the man who kept Yanykovich on a string. Apparently he loves London, just as a certain Arsenal shareholder.

    Ms Nuland, Ms fan fare though, has a lot to answer


  51. “Last Tuesday’s bloody conflicts tipped the scales. On Wednesday both Akhmetov’s and Firtash’s TV stations changed their coverage of Independence Square: Suddenly the two channels, Ukraina and Inter, were reporting objectively on the opposition. The message of the oligarchs was clear: We’re letting Yanukovych fall.”

    And then what?

  52. Max Blumenthal can’t help noticing the facist factor;


    Maybe it’s just my perception, but those that like to accuse others of having an anti-West bias, seem to always jump at any opportunity to exhibit a mirror anti-Russia bias; and it’s not just a case of a mirror projection complex, as the visceral language normally employed is very hardly ever used by the those labeled “Anti-Western” ; just an obsevation !

  53. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Feb, 2014 - 10:32 pm


    Understandably limited by use of one although global but still one language many here fall prey to the western media. But then there are many sources other than Sky or BBC. Many sources from Ukraine and even Russia, latter being extremely biased toward pro russian view, are also available in English. Ultimately understanding of present events will be greatly assisted by some research of the history of the preceding events in the past. But when one is viewing events through the prism of obsessive western meddling and something like ‘he is son of the bitch but he is our son of the bitch because he hates the west’ is not the best approach to understand a conflict going back at least 7 centuries. Such approach as biased and limits ones understanding as the one that is fed through western media propaganda.

    West can be right sometimes, and it has been in the past. It is probably one of these times now in Ukraine, which despite self centred selfish western interests and geopolitical rivalry, could benefit people struggling with centuries of oppression which cost them lives and dignity and put them far behind others. It could be a chance for millions of people to associate themselves with whom they want to be associated and not with whom they had to be associated by brutal force throughout more than 7 centuries.

    Just think about it. Why Brits or Scots for that matter can have choice and other have to be denied it, just because their oppressors seem to suit the self narrowed anti western view of many on this blog?

  54. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 10:42 pm


    You’re right in saying that Ben is quite entitled to his opinion, and I am also entitled to call it bollocks. In what appears to be a justification for his long original post (consisting mainly of a cut and paste from Wikipedia – he would have been better advised to read the main Wikipedia article called “causes_of_the_holodomor”) Ben subsquently wrote “My point was not to dismiss Stalin’s bloodlust, craig.”. In that case, may I ask him what his point was? This would, inter alia, help us establish whether he is a Walter Duranty or merely a Henry Wallace.

    But I digress, because I wanted to thank you for a thoughtful post and an imaginative possible solution (although, like you, I doubt whether that will be the outcome).

    A thread or two ago, one of the regular contributors urged you to offer us your thoughts on the situation in Ukraine. I remember replying that people should be careful what they asked for, as your post might not be quite what many would expect, and might disappoint them. By situating Ukrainian right-wing nationalism in its proper context and by (I presume deliberately) not launching into a denunciation of foreign, ie, US and Western, “interference” (or “fomenting revolution”) in Ukraine, I fear that you have indeed disappointed some. That much can easily be inferred from several of the comments on the thread.

    I should be interested to hear your thoughts on the alleged rôle of the West in this revolution and on the alleged intentions of the West.

  55. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 10:44 pm

    “Shame on you bloody leftists. Shame on those who see no grater enemy than west and who from their comfortable British armchairs prefer to give no toss about struggle of those who have been oppressed for centuries.”


  56. Reading comprehension; It’s what’s for dinner. :)

  57. ” It could be a chance for millions of people to associate themselves with whom they want to be associated and not with whom they had to be associated by brutal force throughout more than 7 centuries.”

  58. sorry uzbek; I posted in error. ” It could be a chance for millions of people to associate themselves with whom they want to be associated and not with whom they had to be associated by brutal force throughout more than 7 centuries.”

    That’s exactly why we immediately think of Western influence as self-serving even when it is spun as foreign aid, or diplomatic efforts. The History makes us so. We wish them well, if this is a popular uprising.

    And please include links you feel give the perspective balance.

  59. Off topic, sorry if already posted

    Deny, Disrupt, Deceive, Degrade.


    How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations

    oh and good evening to all

  60. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 11:29 pm


    What WAS your point? Assuming there was one, of course.

  61. Habbabkuk (and Uzbek in the UK);

    when I came to this blog a few years ago, I’d never heard of Operation Ajax in Iran in 1953:


    I had no idea about Diego Garcia. I didn’t know that Saddam Hussein was “one of ours”, I didn’t know about CIA death squads in South America. And on and on and on. I only learned about some of those things from Craig; many others I encountered in comments posted here, or by following links branching from them. I look at the world in a very different way now. And yes, my opinion of the “West” has fallen immensely as a consequence.

    Of course I over-reacted for a while; maybe you think I still suffer from that. But commenters here are suspicious of the motives of the Western power bloc, and I for one can’t blame them. That’s why I ask you to educate them kindly, when necessary.

    Two things seems very likely. Where there are armed riots in places that matter in the West vs. Russia power struggle, Western Special Ops may very well be involved, and if so, we’re unlikely to see concrete evidence of it for decades.

    Uzbek in the UK, I’d be very glad to learn more of your thoughts on the current situation in Ukraine.

  62. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 11:33 pm

    “I struggle to discover anything more than superficial information,…”

    which never seems to stop you from sounding off about this, that and the next thing. And all that through a haze, darkly :)

  63. Habbabkuk wrote

    “I should be interested to hear your thoughts on the alleged rôle of the West in this revolution and on the alleged intentions of the West.”

    Have a look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957. I think the first phrase “I think we’re in play” sort of gives the game away.

  64. The initial opposition demonstrations, however, failed to force Yanukovych to resign. At this point, paramilitary fascist militias were mobilized to intensify the conflict and propel the country to the brink of civil war. The leading role was played by the so-called Right Sector, whose masked militants, equipped with helmets, batons, fire bombs and firearms soon dominated the center of Kiev, carrying out fierce attacks on the security forces. News reports estimate their number in Kiev alone to be between 2,000 and 3,000.
    The conservative Die Welt paper termed the Right Sector an “informal association of right-wing and neo-fascist splinter groups”. Time magazine, which interviewed its leader Dmitry Yarosh, writes that their “ideology borders on fascism and it enjoys support only from Ukraine’s most hard-line nationalists”. Many of its members are former soldiers or fought in the conflict on the side of Azerbaijan, and in Chechnya and South Ossetia against Russia.

    When she spoke at Independence Square after her release from prison, former prime minister and Fatherland party leader Yulia Tymoshenko made a series of overtures to the fascist militias. She expressly thanked Right Sector for its “contribution to the revolution.” The new interior minister promised that the “Self-Defense Forces from Maidan” would be integrated into the new order.
    This strengthening of the fascists would not be possible without the systematic support of the media and the main political parties in Europe and the US. Liberal newspapers such as the New York Times and the Süddeutsche Zeitung have produced a deluge of propaganda portraying events in Ukraine as a “democratic revolution”, glossing over the role of fascists and glorifying the coup.

    The above is from – And the full piece @


    The west Involvement…in Stirring the shit… Nope, Nosiree Don’t believe a word of it being recorded Fact – in Photo, and Audio, and print ( emails )

    Some nice cosy fotos, and Propaganda video, can be found @


  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 11:46 pm


    “..as the visceral language normally employed is very hardly ever used by the those labeled “Anti-Western””

    You’re thinking of words like “pure evil”, “fascists” and “bastards”, are you?

  66. ” an “informal association of right-wing and neo-fascist splinter groups”

    Sounds like the Tea Party with rabies, Brian. I call the TP in the US the ‘tail that wags the dog’ because they are the squeaky wheel, and the greatest clamor always receives the first and most attention.

  67. Uzbek in the UK

    25 Feb, 2014 - 11:50 pm


    In the last week I have read hundreds if not thousand different articles, views on various forums on the subject. Having few old connections in various parts of Ukraine and knowing few Ukrainians here added to that. I am afraid that as it often happens in situations like this there is no one single unbiased and completely trustworthy source. Even knowing Mr Murray’s integrity first hand to me even some of his own blogs seems biased sometimes. Our opinions are always biased, even when we try to be the most honest. It owes to who we are, how much we earn, where we live, where we pray, which language we speak, which colour is our skin, etc.

    Therefore, researching as many sources as possible (and not only the ones that you feel comfortable reading just because they point out to western meddling), researching history (especially if it goes back to over 700 years) you might form more or less unbiased (as much as it could be unbiased in real terms) opinion.

  68. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    25 Feb, 2014 - 11:52 pm


    “Habbabkuk wrote

    “I should be interested to hear your thoughts on the alleged rôle of the West in this revolution and on the alleged intentions of the West.””

    the “your” refers to Craig. Are you suffering under the delusion that you are Craig?

  69. “Our opinions are always biased” So stipulated. All perception is selective, and humans excel at sectoring their memory banks.

    “Therefore, researching as many sources as possible (and not only the ones that you feel comfortable reading just because they point out to western meddling)”

    The only info I’m uncomfortable with is one-source stories, or one outlet reporting which cannot be corroborated with some objective sourcing. Give me your best link.

  70. Ben, Dude, you hit the jtrig sock puupet in the knee with your rubber stalin hammer. Even Uzbek, a reasonable fellow, went a bit too far when he credited uncle joe with all the background of crisis in Ukraine.

    Below is a much more salient beef of actual human Ukranians. It’s also the reason why Ukraine gained independence, and the reason why Western Ukraine will not be getting into the EU.


    Putin’s assessment of the situation is probably very similar to Craig’s. Putin is, after all, the world’s most influential advocate for the UN Charter and the human right of self-determination.

  71. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    26 Feb, 2014 - 12:00 am

    Uzbek (and others)

    One should be aware that the link provided by Fujisan:

    “The above is from – And the full piece @


    is to the “World Socialist Web Site” – published by the “International Committee of the Fourth International”.

    Need I say more?

  72. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Feb, 2014 - 12:01 am


    Similar to you I learnt a lot since I started reading this blog. Even when I in most cases disagree with what is said by most of the people here, I still find it useful to read something that is different from what I think. I have even changed my opinion on some matters – invasion in Iraq is one of them.

    And not just this blog. For instance after reading ‘Myth of American Diplomacy’ by Walter Hixton (I hope I spelt this right) I have changed my opinion about American Mondernity, American Civil War and Manifest Destiny.

    I am keen to learn and change (unlike some narrow-minded people on this very blog) but what makes me so angry is when people with (what it seems to be) very limited knowledge are making very narrow-minded conclusions on issues which are so important and vital for some many other people. It makes me even more angry when these other people lost millions lives to the ones who are so much supported by (these narrow-minded) people on this blog.

  73. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Feb, 2014 - 12:11 am


    I am surprised you have lived to see these days and were not exterminated by very uncle you mentioned in your post.

    I have not credited this bloody uncle with all the background crisis. I am sorry if it felt like I did. I have been saying that everything from raise of Moscow kingdom to Orange revolution of 2004 and even Yanukovich’s rejection of European project have made its contribution to this crisis. But single biggest and most important contribution was in fact made by this bloody uncle. And not just in Ukraine, in Caucasus and Central Asia too and not at least in modern days Russia itself. Drawing national borders in far away colonical capitals have generally contributed to a lot of post-colonial conflicts of the past, and will unfortunately contribute to more in the future. One hope is that Ukraine will become an exception.

  74. “You’re thinking of words like “pure evil”, “fascists” and “bastards”, are you?”

    No, more the accusative hysterical generalizations such as ““Shame on you bloody leftists”

  75. Kulak: Thanks. I hadn’t considered Chernobyl as a player in this Diorama.

    ” you hit the jtrig sock puupet in the knee with your rubber stalin hammer”

    I need a translation.

  76. Uzbek in the UK, I send you peace to help with your anger. People go too far in their opinions; they too are angry, because they discover that they’ve been subtly deceived. Give them time, information and gentle encouragement. It can’t be rushed, but they might come around in time. And if they don’t, roaring at them won’t change them either.

    There is far too much conflict in the world. It makes it difficult to sustain rationality. I wish Suhayl Saadi had time to drop in and put the kettle on, but I know he is over-worked, so it is up to all of us here. Fighting for peace has obvious limitations. Reasoning for rationality is a good alternative.

    Habbabkuk, you’ve often been insulted; I’ve done so myself at times, and I apologise. Would you like to help forge a peace-keeping team?

    Macky, you too?

  77. Ben, “jtrig soc puppet” is an insult aimed presumably at Habbabkuk. Jtrig operates from GCHQ, a team infiltrating forums to influence or disrupt conversations.

  78. But of course. I got that notion from your 9:43 statement, “Those who have even little understanding of stalins national policy would understand all the background of crisis in Ukraine.” I read all your comments and they are always apposite. I was sure your overall opinion would be nuanced.

  79. It’s all Barking Mad Ben…Even Time Mag is trying to say the same…in a more sedate way…

  80. Clark @12:19 Cheers, Peacmaker :)

  81. Thanks Clark; Time to update my acronym lexicon.

  82. @Clark, I fear that the Samuel Johnson quote, is most apt for your proposed peace endeavor here; “The road to hell is paved with good intentions,”

  83. Kulak; Just curious, as always. You must have been reading this blog for a while. May I ask why you comment infrequently, or was this the first one?

  84. Brian; Barking, indeed! lol

  85. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Feb, 2014 - 12:42 am


    As I said there is not one best source. Read many and think if after all Ukrainians deserved right to decide their future in Kiev and not in Kremlin.

    But the one that is (in my opinion) most pro russian in this particular case (as much as in general) is RT.

    Talking of which at the bottom of their front page there is a ‘picture of the day’ showing great Russian writers and poets as shown at the closing of Sochi Olympics. One of them is Nikolay Vasilevich Gogol (whose birth name is in fact Ukrainian name Mikola), who was born in modern days Ukraine and wrote a lot in Ukrainian and about Ukraine, which at that time considered to be provincial poetry. His writing has greatly contributed to opening up provincial Ukraine to the conservative public in both Moscow and St Peterburg. He had eventually moved to the capital (St Peterburg), lived, wrote and worked there until his exile after publishing very critical to the conservative elites ‘Dead Souls’. But as much as Dead Souls is still popular today he is most remembered for his writings about Ukrainian provincial life.

    Is he great Russian or Ukrainian writer? Any thoughts?

    This is one clear sample of complexities of Ukraine and its relation to Russia.

  86. Ok…

    so i’m Mad, at the whole fkn world going up in flames of carefully manufactured rebellions….

    i got impatient with trying to recheck that site… but we know it’s telling some truths.

  87. We have had many colloquies here. US crimes against privacy make it risky to maintain a single ‘selector’ for NSA chekists to attack. This commenter has noted multiple probes by the criminal US state. You should be careful too.

  88. OK so we have Nuland (“eminent” person to midwife Ukranian regime change and Biden to “attaboy” the handover!), Rice (spinning, warns Russia not to invade), Obama (there will be consequences, lending support to the Maidanistas). So WHERE do these devils have their meetings and brainstorming sessions, WHO are the armchair devils that conceptualise these regime change operations, HOW do they communicate and sync (eg Nuland caught talking to Ambassador) their public speech. Is it some kind of deep state group within the rest of the unsuspecting 28k people that work at the Pentagon? No whistleblowers even so far, it must have taken a heck of a lot of planning and personnel to pull off 911, right down to the chit (epic fail) handed to the BBC announcer to announce the fall of WTC7. A TNW on the Pentagon should usher in the Kingdom of Heaven surely if all the responsible devils for all these worldwide plots are wiped out in one fell swoop?!!

  89. Uzbek in the UK

    26 Feb, 2014 - 12:58 am


    Sorry this is my relatively poor English. I must admit that knowledge of stalin’s national policy in particular national territorial delimitations policy, russification and korenizaciya will help understanding major background of current Ukrainian crisis. Although I must admit that transfer of Crimea to Ukraine has happened after bloody uncle’s death.

  90. “You should be careful too.”

    Much appreciated. I think the Muslims are right about one thing; “It is written…”

    I’ve become somewhat fatalistic as time has flown by.

  91. Habbabkuk, 12:00 am:

    [wsws.org is] the “World Socialist Web Site” – published by the “International Committee of the Fourth International”

    Need I say more?

    Well I’ll let Wikipedia say more:

    Historically, the Fourth International was established in France in 1938: Trotsky and his supporters, having been expelled from the Soviet Union, considered the Comintern or Third International to have become “lost to” Stalinism and incapable of leading the international working class to political power.[1] Thus, Trotskyists founded their own, competing “Fourth International”.

    Today, there is no longer a single, cohesive Fourth International. Throughout the better part of its existence, the Fourth International was hounded by agents of the Soviet secret police, repressed by capitalist countries such as France and the United States and rejected by followers of the Soviet Union and later Maoism as illegitimate – a position these communists still hold today.

    So, anti-Stalinist and hated by various unpleasant forces, they could be ethical communists. Some will regard this as a contradiction in terms, of course, but that’s just ideology, just as some ideologies regard all capitalism as unethical.

    So long as they pursue their ends by persuasion, organisation and democracy rather than violence and destruction, I’m prepared to give them a hearing. The article seems reasonable, though “Western” support of the Far Right could be opportunistic as much as conspiratorial.

  92. The English are a nation and if they wish are certainly entitled to a state … Oops! Sorry for my racist utterance. Ukrainians a nation state, sure, but not those white English bastards: bring on the mass immigration, eh Craig?

  93. AlcAnon/Squonk

    |||CAGE. A strong reminder of rendition and the utter duplicity of USUKIS. Utterly miserable accounts of Assad/US torture.

    The fact that Assad is sponsored by both USUKIS and Russia in Syria should be borne in mind at this time while USUKIS/Russia are midwifing a transition in Ukraine under the EU price-tag. The war in Syria is engendered deliberately by UKUSIS/Russia to trample on Islam and Muslims in in that country for the benefit of the Zionist/NWO. It’s a scripted film I call Sylliwood.

    In Ukraine, 20th century paradigms of Cold War East v West are also red herrings, as are NWO Bosnian-style sponsored ads for Ukranian EU membership. We never know the plot until the story unfolds a bit further in these blockbuster phoney war films. But Putin looks to me like a man who’s already read the full script and learnt his part. Maybe the deal is a promise of a Russian toehold in the West of Syria in exchange for release of Chechnya and later the -stans from the monopoly of Russian influence.

    The New World Order means global, not little bits here and there.

  94. CanSpeccy

    Why are you obsessed by race? Different people have different histories and perspectives. We have to learn to communicate honestly and humbly with eachother. We are not dogs or flowers being bred for genetically advantageous traits. I hope..

  95. BrianFujisan

    26 Feb, 2014 - 2:36 am

    Clark RE Peace…

    Aint it a bugger when the fone rings… ( Whatever Mobile Chant )

    and the visitor from long ago will be here in like minits…

    I had to grab something Quick… A Banner of Chinese wisdom…off the fkn Wall…

    If there is light in the soul,
    there will be beauty in the person.
    If there is beauty in the person,
    there will be harmony in the house.
    If there is harmony in the house,
    there will be order in the nation.
    If there is order in the nation,
    there will be peace in the world. – Chinese Proverb

    i think it’s at least worth a try Mackie…. and to that end i also Apologize to H

  96. Jay wrote:

    “How can country’s be in such debt?

    It comes after acting leaders in Ukraine said they need $35bn (£21bn) to avoid defaulting.

    The United States is ready to provide financial support to boost an International Monetary Fund (IMF) aid programme.

    This situation is ridiculous. The whole system needs reforming.

    Any ideas?”

    Yes, it is ridiculous. The interest you get from your investment is a measure of the risk you’re taking in putting your money there in the first place. 25% returns? Good luck on that – you’ll need it.

    1%, or 0% return with your high-street bank? That’s just a guarantee that you’ll get your money back. (The government might be actually back-stopping it, but that’s another story).

    Payments being extracted from countries where the government has fallen is a different story. Investors knew – or should have known – the risks they were taking. If the government falls, the new administration has the right to declare bankruptcy, the same as any individual or group of them. If you lost money, be glad that you made good on high-risk, high-yield loans while it lasted.

    Using the international court to go after crooked deals made with a corrupt, disbanded administration is high jinks by the banksters on the world stage. It’s not like a new set of directors in the same corporation, it’s a different corporation – they just happen to operate on the same land.

    As always, these shameless investor-class banksters will have it all ways. High returns on very speculative investments, made in dubious circumstances, with the taxpayer as the guarantor throughout, and the IMF as the collection agency.

  97. Why are you obsessed by race?

    Who’s obsessed by race? It was Craig who was speaking for Ukrainian ethnic nationalism. I was merely attempting to point out the humbug in such an argument from a lover of diversity.

    Anyway, the who piece is bullshit. So far as US/NATO are concerned, developments in Ukraine have nothing to do with promoting the interests of Ukrainians. Fuck the Ukrainians as US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland said, or was it fuck the EU? Anyhow, what’s happening in Ukraine is intended by US/NATO as another step in the New World Order assimilation of Eurasia, slice by slice. After Ukraine Belarus, and on from there.

    Unfortunately, the process on the ground has been hijacked, for now, anyway, by Jew-hating nationalists who hate the Russians for defeating Hitler. But Craig Murray sympathizes with their aspirations, apparently. LOL.

1 2 3 4

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted In The Cloud