Disappearing Aircraft

by craig on March 19, 2014 8:07 am in Uncategorized

I had fairly well concluded that the most likely cause was a fire disrupting the electrical and control systems, when CNN now say the sharp left turn was pre-programmed 12 minutes before sign off from Malaysian Air Traffic control, which was followed fairly quickly by that left turn.

CNN claim to have this from an US official, from data sent back before the reporting systems went off.  It is hard to know what to make of it: obviously there are large economic interests that much prefer blame to lie with the pilots rather than the aircraft.  But if it is true then the move was not a response to an emergency.  (CNN went on to say the pilot could have programmed in the course change as a contingency in case of an emergency.  That made no sense to me at all – does it to anyone else?)

I still find it extremely unlikely that the plane landed or crashed on land  I cannot believe it could evade military detection as it flew over a highly militarized region.  Somewhere there is debris on the ocean.  There have been previous pilot suicides that took the plane with them; but the long detour first seems very strange and I do not believe is precedented.  However if the CNN information on pre-programming is correct, and given it was the co-pilot who signed off to air traffic control, it is hard to look beyond the pilots as those responsible for whatever did happen.  In fact, on consideration, the most improbable thing is that information CNN are reporting from the US official.

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  1. Copied from AH thread:

    Marlin, there’s more on that here,it’s a good summary;

    :From Diego Garcia to Where?

    If suppose we are to assume that the plane was indeed diverted to Diego Garcia, it is reasonable to assume that the plane and its passengers would not be kept there indefinitely. If we are to follow the logic of some devoted conspiracy theorists who are pursuing this on other forums, the plane and its passengers would be flown to the Eastern mainland of the United States, over the Atlantic Ocean to escape scrutiny (and comparatively less distance than the other way around). Of course, the plane’s livery would be painted over. The plane’s wreckage would later be carefully deposited by (presumably by air) on a location far away from Diego Garcia.

    But why are we discussing this here?

    ‘Because the same devoted conspiracy theorists who are pursuing this on other forums have pointed out that four days after the disappearance of MH370, a curious military exercise took place on the Southern-Eastern part of the United States coastline. Fighter jets were reportedly “escorting” a plane. To quote,

    “Members of the South Carolina Air National Guard are conducting an air defense exercise along the coast. Guard Senior Master Sergeant Edward Snyder says people might see fighter jets escorting a civilian aircraft Thursday over the North Charleston and Myrtle Beach areas.


    However ,my posting
    Mar, 2014 – 11:08 am

    With the link for the first Maldive sighting , now being taken seriously by the media, is strengthened & possibly confirms where this MH370 went for refuelling & re-flagging,before travelling further.

  2. Hi Craig. I have the great honor of making the first comment in a new discussion?

    You asked: “(CNN went on to say the pilot could have programmed in the course change as a contingency in case of an emergency. That made no sense to me at all – does it to anyone else?)”

    Apparently some very conscientious pilots do indeed pre-load a path to the nearest suitable airport in case of emergency, and change it as the flight progresses. It allows them to quickly select the new path with one command if needed.

  3. @Katie
    Drat! You beat me to it. One great mystery is how “they” know that somebody entered an alternate course, and whether it was before or after the last communication (whenever that was). It’s all based on an unnamed source, initially I think to the New York Times. Whether it’s a from ACARS via Rolls Royce or Boeing or some other source is unclear.

    There may be good legal and business reasons why it isn’t officially announced.

  4. If the plane did land somewhere my guess would be Mongolia or in an area where there is no phone signal, because otherwise there would have been passenger attempts to inform loved ones that they were safe. Suicide still seems most likely short of this.

  5. “…and given it was the co-pilot who signed off to air traffic control”

    How is this significant? With most airlines it’s normal that whoever is the handling pilot for the sector talks on the radio. Ultimately it’s the captain’s decision who is the handling pilot but unless there are special considerations (marginal weather or the like – at British Airways, for example, it’s always the captain who’s handling pilot for autolands) captains and first officers (F/Os) will alternate by sector (ie, flight). A captain who didn’t give F/Os their reasonable share of sectors would be pretty unpopular and would be pulled up by the airline as it wouldn’t be allowing the F/Os to get necessary experience.

    By the way, the term “co-pilot” is hardly used these days. I think it has some specific technical meaning, something like that an F/O is considered a “co-pilot” for sectors where they’re not the handling pilot. There’s some rule or other about them only being able to count a certain number of co-pilot hours towards certain licence upgrades (commercial with frozen ATPL to ATPL). Can’t remember the details, read the rules years ago while sitting bored in CAA Flight Crew Licensing at Gatwick while waiting for them to sort out a problem with a rating on my private licence. But normally (ie., except when training or whatever) the person in the left seat is the captain and the one in the right seat is the first officer.

    The difference between the two is a lot less than many people think. The captain will typically have had more experience and will have overall responsibility for the flight but when it comes to actual handling of the aircraft both can and will do almost all of the jobs.

    If the captain was using the radio for earlier calls and suddenly the FO was talking then that might be slightly significant but likely only indicates that the captain was busy at that moment – maybe he’d gone to the toilet or something. Of course, one of the crew being off the flight deck might be part of the story here but the F/O replying is not in itself sinister in any way.

  6. Breaking news! The only news! From the morning Malaysian press conference. Files Deleted! The pilot had deleted files from his home flight simulator computer.

    Shocking, whoever heard of such a thing. Deleted files on a PC.

  7. @Marlin

    Hi there on here.

    In answer to your question. I wasn’t aware that he reached FL450.
    If he did, then that “could” have happened for any number of reasons that could be deliberate or accidental (depending on system failures and awareness of the situation).

    ONE thing to remember (and I guess it is the same for Chevaline), the authorities WILL NOT reveal all the data they have.

    With regard to ACARS, it depends on what ACARS package MAS has.
    Personally I don’t see that they have a “30 minute” burst transmissions. This is the national carrier of Malaysia. Not a “tin pot” airline (although they are behaving in that way).

    Also ACARS data won’t be made public. Firstly they are not allowed to do that until after an investigation (and as yet, as far as I am aware, that hasn’t even started. This is still a “search and rescue” mission. The plane is still listed as “missing”).

    With regards what could have happened.

  8. @Ed Davies

    The “basically” the terms used would be….
    PIC and SIC. Pilot In Command and Second In Command.
    Then they’ll have designated PF and PNF. Pilot Flying and Pilot Not Flying for that sector.

    Here it looks like it was PIC/PF and SIC/PNF due to the fact that the “Co Pilot” was handling the radio communications (and didn’t appear to be stressed).

    However….if “that” was his “sign off” to Malaysian ATC, then it was a rather relaxed one (unless there was a communication from the controller just before which was repeated back by the SIC/PNF).

  9. The journalist and author with in-depht knowledge of what went on 9/11, and who has researchet 9/11 like no other, and lost his job as a result of this, Christopher Bollyn, weighs in:

    [my emphasis] [links added]

    Are the Israelis Planning Another 9-11 Using the Missing Boeing 777?

    By Christopher Bollyn_________March 18, 2014


    An Israel-based reporter named Paul Alster has a very interesting article on FoxNews.com giving an Israeli prognosis about the missing Malaysian Boeing 777. The Alster article is important because it suggests that the Israelis may be setting the stage for a false-flag event using the missing Malaysian plane as a flying bomb in an attack similar to 9-11.

    The article, which follows this introduction, is very revealing because it contains information that indicates that the Israelis may be projecting a terror scenario by planting the ideation in the public mind by using the media. Ideation in this case is the projection of the scenario planned by the terror masterminds who put the idea into people’s heads so that they will blame the targeted foe when their plot unfolds into reality. The following article has comments from Israeli El Al airport “security” veterans that are very similar to comments tweeted by Rupert Murdoch in the past day or two. How interesting that Murdoch and the Israeli airline security people imagine the exact same fate for the missing Boeing. How telling.

    It is important to note that these Israeli El Al security people are the same people (ICTS, Menachem Atzmon, and assorted Mossadniks), who carried out the ideation (Murdoch’s “Lone Gunmen” pilot episode and Arnon Milchan’s Medusa Touch film come to mind) and false-flag attacks of 9-11. This is what the evidence I present in my Solving 9-11 books reveals about Israeli involvement in false-flag terrorism of 9-11. The fact that the same people are now projecting the ideation of the Boeing 777 being used in a terror attack needs to be taken very seriously.

    The game is on. Beware of the very real possibility that the plane may resurface, used as a weapon of terror to cause a provocation that can be used to initiate aggression against a targeted foe – such as the Islamic Republic of Iran. If enough people realize the evil game of deception the Israelis are up to, they won’t be able to pull off another major terror spectacle – and get away with it.


    Bollyn thinks that Israel is directly implicated in 9/11. While this is fascinating – and certainly welcome as a contrast to how the mainstream media portarys the situation (and many of his carefully researched information relating to Israelis in the aircraft business in the US and the like is certainly interesting in itself)- I’ve never been prepared to go that far.

    I think Israel’s intelligence services knew what was going to happen, and one can discuss if it’s not a criminality that they did not inform the US authorities. From Israel’s perspective it was enormously important to get the US directly involved in fighting its enemies, and it has since 9/11 gained ‘a new lease of life’, thriving and spinning money and businesses in providing info about all sorts of radical islamists to all the worlds intelligence services, and selling surveillance equipment all over the world.

    A country which always has considered itself to be in a permanent state of war is undoubtedly prepared to go to great lenghts, also lenghts that people like us living in peace are not prepared to even consider. But I still hesitate to go along with the notion that they would actually kill 3,000 people on 9/11 to achieve their aim of getting practically the whole world to join its fight, and in this way get a new lease of life.

    But lets get a fair trial, as used to happen whenever large amounts of people gets killed in a criminality. But we’ve never had that,- and that very suspicious. Bollyn documents how Jewish lawyers, law enforcement officials and judges time and again have shelved any investigation into those who might have known about what was going to happen. It would be fair to procecute these people, because no matter if Israel had an existential interest in 9/11, it’s not fair to kill close to 3,000 innocents in the process, – not to mention the hundred of thousands of innocents who have died in the wake of 9/11 in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and even Palestine and Lebanon, where Israel used the guise of the global “war on terror” — and its new found self confidence .. to clamp down on Palestinians and Lebanese.

    So all in all he’s a lot more sensible than many other commenters, including the right honoured Mr. Craig Murray, because Bollyn is very clear about how it was undue Western interference in Ukraine’s internal affairs, that prompted Putin to take matters into his own hands and show how vital national interests always will trumph fears of santions, -which means its stupid to use sanctions, if they don’t work. It’s not only stupid, it’s detrimental to our own interests, and it could well be dangerous because it is whipping up hatred and contempt. Much more wise it would be to invite Russia into NATO, which they want, and into economic coorperation with the EU – which latter organisation should NEVER have evolved anyfurther than to a British inspired Free Trade Club. If EU still had been primarily a free trade organistaion like the EEC, Russia could easily have joined, and everybody would be happy.

  10. “All okay. Good night” isn’t really a “communication” as such !

    Could someone confirm what the “official” communication was, the one released by the Malaysian authorities ?

  11. “There may be good legal and business reasons why it isn’t officially announced”.

    It is all governed under the Montreal Convention (Article 21 parargraph 1 and 2). This convention gives the air carrier “limited liability” in return for “presumed fault”.

    There are other “conditions” which revolve around the “reckless” behaviour of a carrier (and a bit of a legal mine field), however “if” proved then (I believe) there is no privilege granted of limited liability. The liability could become “unlimited”.

  12. Marcus,
    I can’t agree with that ,a lot are posting that theory of fire on Twitter,but surely a fire would have allowed enough time for at least one phone call to get through ?

    Yes that is the official announcement , it has also been said that is the wrong flying ‘change over code /message’ so it should have rung alarm bells.

    Yes, we are told, he did climb to 45,000 & then dropped to 20,000, eventually down to 5,000ft.

  13. Now we get another thread about the sabotaged airliner just when the previous one was getting interesting with the announcement that Allianz, the German insurance company, was paying out today $100 million to Malaysia for the loss of its plane and its 239 victims.

    The company could only have done so if some important player guaranteed the payments, and it seems to have been Beijing which is having all kinds of problems with the relatives of the victims.

    China would only have done so if it knows that the plane was destroyed, and will not be found.

    This is supported by its Ministry of State Security announcing in a most unprecedented manner that none of its victims could have been involved in any terrorism. Of course, there is a first time for almost anything.

    Looks like it knows who did the sabotage, and the first place to look would be by checking the passenger manifests for both this flight and the Asiana Flight 214 to see if any passenger or passengers were on them both – what I shall now be doing.

    Will attempt no more now for fear that this post like several others will be prevented from appearing.

  14. Ba'al Zevul (Хождение в народ!)

    19 Mar, 2014 - 11:27 am

    Very sensible theory here. Not discounted by preprogrammed diversion, as far as I can see – perhaps supported by it;


    See we have pilots here. True for you?

  15. Ba’al Zevul (Хождение В Народ!)
    19 Mar, 2014 – 11:27 am

    That theory has a logical problem.
    If there is an emergency because of fire why wouldnt he land in Butterworth or Penang intl.?
    Butterworth doesnt have any obstacles and it is an airforce port open 24×365. He was flying directly above butterworth. Why would he want to fly another 200 miles if there was an airport directly below his flight route?

    Second logical problem: the plane was too heavy for landing. First thing a pilot does before landing is opening the fuel tanks. If he didnt do that then he wouldnt have wanted to land.
    However, if he did it, the plane wouldnt have had fuel for another 6 hours.

    Solution: there hadnt been any kind of intention to land.

    Theory debunked.

  16. This is the FIRST time in history of flight insurance that an insurance company (german Allianz) is paying for dead PAX before they were officially declared as being dead.

    Other than that there is the only other possibility that the government did already declare them as being dead but the gov didnt tell that to the media deliberately.
    That would suggest that they know much more than they are telling us.

  17. BB.
    I agree with you about there not being a fire…because of the lack of phone calls, but not about landing.
    IF, the plane flew to DG it would have done almost 3 hours flying so could have landed & refilled to fly on.
    Plus, had the flying height been, as suggested, 5,000 more fuel would have been burnt up.

    See my link posted earlier;


  18. Ideation

    A wish for a different explanation from the obvious.

    The obvious explanation of the events in the Ukraine is that Zionists including the loop of Saudi Arabia, have swapped control Russian involvement in the Mediterranean at Syria, for Russian annexation of the Crimea so that they can remove Assad and get their sticky fingers on Syria.

    The obvious explanation for the Malaysian plane going missing is Obama’s interest in the Pacific. What do the zio-banksters of the Pacific want him to do? Obviously not bankrupt or upset China. The rise of China and the Far East is a creation of the Zio-banksters by which to dis-empower us Europeans, those US jobless citizens, and those very wealthy oil-sheikh pawns, who threaten their mad ideology to re-create the cult of Judea.

    I agree with Kenneth Sorensen that the disappearance of the plane tempts us to imagine a repetition of 9/11 to create a new war on Terror zone in Obama’s new, Pacific area of operations. However, because I always believe the opposite of what liars try to get me to believe, I think that USUKIS want us to take our eyes off the ball, which is the disabling of Muslim countries in the Middle-East and the re-colonisation by ISUSUK of Africa.

  19. Bluebird – if there was a fire he may not have been to jettison fuel?

    But knowing this area,a little, I agree Butterworth is much nearer. But is it an international airport or a military base? Anyway Penang is so close by it must have been an option. They would have much better facilities for dealing with an emergency than Langkawi.

    The wired article is plausible but could there really have been a failure of all communication systems:

    “There was most likely a fire or electrical fire. In the case of fire the first response if to pull all the main busses and restore circuits one by one until you have isolated the bad one.

    If they pulled the busses the plane indeed would go silent. It was probably a serious event and they simply were occupied with controlling the plane and trying to fight the fire”

    Why would anyone do this? couldn’t he have fired off at least one SOS before closing down electrical systems?

  20. Looks like finding the passenger manifest for Asiana Flight 214 will be rather difficult since it apparently doesn’t exist.

    When I google for it, I only get images of the result – pictures of the plane which experienced those two fires while landing, photos of all kinds of relatives and survivors, even The NTSB claiming the the pilots were called ‘Sum Ting Wong’, ‘Wi To Low’, and “Ho Lee Fuk’, No image of any actual manifest.

    Might well explain why the FAA fined it $500,000 recently for not being informative and supportive enough of those who were alarmed by the fiasco – what Malaysia, thanks to Beijing’s assistance, is doing its best to avoid now.

  21. Playing the devils advocate, I would like to say that there could be a problem with Bluebirds statement:

    He was flying directly above butterworth. Why would he want to fly another 200 miles if there was an airport directly below his flight route?

    – because a pilot who has lost engine-thrust is concerned with taking a smooth effortless glide down towards something that is right before him, and not necessarily in making anymore sharp U-turns or down-spiralling.

  22. Also, if he had lost communication he couldn’t…..communicate with Butterworth, which is a military base, which would very much appreciate any incoming traffic to identify itself beforehand. He might very well have felt more comfortably by an airfield that was ahead of him, and to which he could make a quiet descent. But it’s very surprising that no debris has been found along this path.

  23. Sorensen

    The U-turn happend more than 30 minutes earlier than he arrived in butterworth/penang.

    More than enough time to glide smoothly either towards butterworth airforce base or to penang international and also at the same time to reduce weight by opening the fuel tanks.

    He did never intend to land there at that time.
    He/ or the person controlling that flight, must have had a totally different intention …. if they werent shot down by their own airforce earlier on.

  24. Ba'al Zevul (Хождение в народ!)

    19 Mar, 2014 - 12:32 pm

    Thanks for the expert input. From the wired piece;

    “The captain did not turn back to Kuala Lampur because he knew he had 8,000-foot ridges to cross. He knew the terrain was friendlier toward Langkawi, which also was closer.”

    If he had preprogrammed an escape route, might he not have picked Langkawi for those reasons? Why not Butterworth? Because it’s a MATZ, maybe? I see 18/36 at Butterworth is only 8000′ long, while Langkawi is 13000′ – would give him more error room, I’d have thought, as a 777 needs over 2Km (~6600 feet).

    Re. the fuel tanks: point taken, but if he’d made the decision to go to Lankawi, he wouldn’t have jettisoned immediately…before he did, unconsciousness /death had supervened.

    However, chances are we’ll never know.

  25. Can any say what powers the planes headlights ?
    Because if the multiple sightings over the Maldives are true, all lights were said to be blazing on the aircraft,which is what first got their attention .

    I’d say that showed the aircraft was preparing to land.

  26. Trowbridge

    ‘…even The NTSB claiming the the pilots were called ‘Sum Ting Wong’, ‘Wi To Low’, and “Ho Lee Fuk’

    Trowbridge, are you sure about that? These names were a hoax played upon Bay Area Fox Affiliate KTVU, whose newsreader read them out on air. You can see the footage here:


    I hate to say it, but it is very funny, albeit in extremely poor taste.

  27. Langkawi has 8000 ft runway according to that site. There are confusing statistics.
    However, Langkawi is open from 9am to 4pm ONLY and the runway pkus the airport is closed at night.
    I suggest to check if there are any runway lights at all on langkawi runway. I seriously doubt so. However, the airport is closed at night and there is nobody to turn on the lights if there are any.

    Penang runway is 11.000 ft. and Penang airport is open 24 hours.

    There is no reason whatsoever to ignore butterworth or penang in case of an emergency in the middle of the night.

  28. The Allianz insurance payout must be the quickest insurance payout in history !

    03/19/2014 11:30
    Allianz Insurer Starts Pay-Outs On Missing Malaysian Airliner Claims
    Deutsche Welle
    Allianz Insurer Starts Pay-Outs On Missing Malaysian Airliner Claims
    German insurance company Allianz has started making payments on claims related to missing Malaysian Airline flight MH370. The company says it is seeking to complete claims payments by the end of the week. Allianz and other co-reinsurers of the Malaysian Airlines aviation hull and liability policy had.

    German insurance company Allianz has started making payments on claims related to missing Malaysian Airline flight MH370. The company says it is seeking to complete claims payments by the end of the week.

    Allianz and other co-reinsurers of the Malaysian Airlines aviation hull and liability policy had made initial payments linked to the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370, the German insurance company announced late on Tuesday.

    The company, which is Malaysia Airlines’ lead insurer, were confirming an earlier report in the German business daily Handelsblatt. In its Wednesday edition, Handelsblatt reported that payments in the case would amount to about $100 million (72 million euros) for the aircraft and the 239 people on board.

    Allianz declined to comment on the exact sum of claims and how much of it would be passed on to other insurers in the consortium.

    “This is in agreement with the insurance broker, Willis, and is in line with normal market practice and our contractual obligations where an aircraft is reported missing,” Allianz said in a statement.”

    So, there’s no time limit on a missing aircraft, all it needs is that word, ‘missing’ ???

    Pull the other one Allianz, whom I might add , are my own insurers !

  29. Could somebody please measure the length of penang, langkawi and butterworth runways on google earth simply because there are confusing and wrong lengths of langkawi runway given on different websites. My source says 8000 ft.

    Also measuring the length of the Diego Garcia runway on google earth would be appreciated.

    Also the distance between butterworth airfield and langkawi runway would be good to know.
    I remember that sorensen was good at that.

  30. Ba'al Zevul (Хождение в народ!)

    19 Mar, 2014 - 1:14 pm

    03/21 at Langkawi is 12,500ft long


    But I grant you the runway lights. It has them (see link – others may be out-of-date) but whether they were on or not probably depends on whether there was scheduled traffic. More research needed.

  31. Ba'al Zevul (Хождение в народ!)

    19 Mar, 2014 - 1:15 pm

    Could somebody please measure the length of penang, langkawi and butterworth runways on google earth

    I favour the DIY approach. Lazy sod.

  32. Katie They didn’t, or wouldn’t, pay out for my recent storm damage claim. Wear and tear – the old saw. I am surprised Act of God did not come into it.

  33. I immediately rush to Bluebird‘s defense, who has made invaluabable contributions to the solving of the al Hilli murder case, which many journalists over the months have benefitted from by the method of lurking. Bluebird could be more than three score years old, and as razor sharp he is about….well, almost anything, he typically is completely ignorant about technically trivialities, like YouTube, which he learned about for the first time around 3 months ago.

  34. Ed Davies

    Sorry for the ambiguity – I didn’t mean there was any significance in it being the co-pilot rather than the pilot, I only meant the crew were still apparently in control of the plane

  35. Kenneth Sorensen calling Bluebird. Come in Bluebird two-three-five-zero. Everything looking good. Approaching Keanang. Coming in two-thre-five six. Roger [Moore] and over.

  36. Sorensen
    I know how to measure on google earth but i am only on my smart phone right now and this is impossible to do there. :)
    I hope that the excuse will be accepted.

    Something else:

    The broker for the insurance for airplane MH370 and passengers was

    The Sears Tower in chicago is called Willis Tower nowadays.

    Allianz will pay $ 100 million for plane and passenger families if there was an accident, however, in case of terror or hijacking it is Lloyds who’ll have to pay.
    Insurance responsibility for the cargo is still unknown at this time.

  37. Mary….don’t start me on insurance companies, in my experience they put every obstacle in the way before parting with a penny .
    We are all made to feel dishonest when trying to claim… I cannot believe payouts have already been made, meaning, within DAYS money was received.

  38. No media was telling that ever before:
    Malaysia airlines filing for bankruptcy shortly before MH370 went missing …..


    By filing for bankruptcy under Section 176 of the Companies Act, MAS will get rid of a number of problems simultaneously.

  39. Yes, I am sure about it, KingofWelshNoir.

    A NTSB intern passed the official message on to the TV station for which the intern was fired, and the agency apologized, though it had already done the damage, as you demonstrate.

    It was far more than just funny and in poor taste because it scapegoated the pilots for the sabotage beyond their control.

  40. The anguish of the relatives is increasing. It must be terrible for them.

    Missing Malaysia Jet: Chaos At News Conference

    Mayhem ensues as two relatives of passengers on the missing plane are jostled and one of them is knocked to the ground.

  41. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/18/missing-plane-mh370-computer_n_4984183.html?just_reloaded=1

    “The Flight Management System is used to direct the plane between waypoints on its journey. It is possible, officials said, that it was reprogrammed before the plane took off.”

    Yes…many things ‘possible’.

  42. Bankruptcy of malaysian airlines will cost jobs and reduced wages for pilots.


  43. Kenneth; The Bollyn piece states the Israeli media is speculating that if Israel blames Iran, that it’s an Israeli op. No cite for that I noticed on quick read. Can you supply?

    From that link to this.


  44. Abolghassem Mesbahi is probably an alias, but he sure gets around. Iran is responsible for everything from the Chicago fire to Lockerbie to 9/11. ‘Natch!


    In the one public hearing held on the case, the lawyers revealed the identity of purported former Iranian intelligence official Abolghasem Mesbahi – probably a pseudonym – and described his testimony that he had received a series of “coded messages” from a former colleague in the Iranian government in the late summer and early fall of 2001 warning that a terrorist attack against the United States was being planned, and that it was a plan that had been concocted by Tehran in the late 1980s.

  45. Ben
    19 Mar, 2014 – 2:22 pm

    That is very interesting………….and they try to tell us nothing on MH370 showed on their radar .

  46. Yes Katie. Diego Garica is about 3400 miles. 777 range about 5k. No sats have ground penetration do they?

  47. “I still find it extremely unlikely that the plane landed or crashed on land”

    Didn’t you hear about the passengers’ cell phones, which were still ringing a day after the plane disappeared? This means the phones were on the ground, still functioning and within the range of a base station. And didn’t you hear about the pings from the ACARS engine maintenance system, showing that the engines were still running (and therefore probably still airborne) some 5-7 hours after the last contact?

    “I cannot believe it could evade military detection as it flew over a highly militarized region”

    No such problem if it was flying over the Indian Ocean.

    On the basis of the current evidence, a landing in Diego Garcia is by some way the best call so far. I do wonder why the NSA hasn’t stepped forward to tell us where those phones were. It does, of course, know.

  48. Ben I wouldn’t know but as ‘communications’ are what they do there;

    “The United States Navy operates Naval Support Facility (NSF) Diego Garcia, a large naval ship and submarine support base, military air base, communications and space-tracking facility, and an anchorage for pre-positioned military supplies for regional operations aboard Military Sealift Command ships in the lagoon.”

    I will not be convinced they saw & know nothing.

    At last the media are now taking DG seriously;

    ‘Today it was also revealed that a remote island in the middle of the Indian Ocean with a runway long enough to land a Boeing 777 was programmed into the home flight simulator of the pilot of the missing Malaysia Airlines plane.
    Police are now urgently investigating whether Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah had practised landing at Diego Garcia, an island south of the Maldives occupied by the US navy.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2584123/Revealed-Malaysian-Airlines-pilot-high-security-US-base-Diego-Garcia-programmed-homemade-flight-simulator-deleted-data-just-taking-control-missing-plane.html#ixzz2wQIXlMeG

  49. @Trowbridge H. Ford 19 Mar, 2014 – 12:20 pm
    A copy of the passenger manifest. The original pdf from Malaysian Airlines is now “404 Not Found”. A deleted file!Verrrry ominous. Alert the hungry media hounds! ;)


    Has anyone determined where illusionist David Copperfield was at the time? He excelled in making aircraft disappear at night?

  50. Ba'al Zevul (Хождение в народ!)

    19 Mar, 2014 - 3:38 pm

    Putting the woo in the EU; I implore you not to take this one seriously, even if you are Sorcha Faal (who may have invented it)


    Our Mission: Multiplying hypotheses unnecessarily.

  51. As requested mine from the Chevaline thread. Hello to new names on here. (Now I have even more to read!!!)

    Tim V
    19 Mar, 2014 – 3:10 pm
    Thanks for that. It’s a chilling insight into how a little incident (a captain popping off for forty winks) can have disastrous consequences for a plane and all its occupants. More than anything else, the disaster appears to be down to an inexperienced pilot in control in adverse conditions, pulling up the nose and thus stalling the plane and loosing control of the plane. He could not understand why despite pulling back on the joystick the plane was loosing altitude. The more experienced co-pilot didn’t take control in time and didn’t realise what his colleague had been doing. The captain returned too late and fatefully didn’t take over. Just reading the transcript is an exercise in empathy and far more heart-stopping than a disaster movie.
    However I think it is pretty clear we have something quite different in the case of MH370 and the situations are not transferable, the simple reason being that we are told the latter was still being detected over seven hours after it was initially said to have crashed into the sea. As with Chevaline we are forced to make the best of what might be disingenuous information and trying to divine what is true and what is not, but no one seems to have questioned that bit of information so we must assume it is reliable. It means that over 7 hours later it was still flying or powered up on the ground SOMEWHERE. It rules out crash or submersion at least up to that point.
    Where the tragic AF447 story is illuminating is the statement that up until the belated retrieval of the black box and consequent flight deck conversation, the only indicative information available was the automatic engine printout sent back to AF HQ. This was enough to determine the plane had crashed and many of the technical parameters but could not divulge the human responses to them.
    So the inference for MH370 is two fold. Rolls Royce Boeing have all the information they require to recreate the flight plan. Probably every variation to engines and cockpit controls has been relayed including crucially take-off and landing. They must know where it has gone and where it set down.
    The other obvious point is that if the plane had crashed they would know beyond doubt it happened. They would surely have said this if it had happened at least. They are hiding behind “commercial confidentiality” which is questionable enough, but surely would not have done so if their technical feedback had confirmed crash?
    Yet again, apros pos Chevaline, we are in the realms of information known to some being with held to all for reasons only known to the “some”. Where so many lives and families are affected the immorality of that is plain to see. (No pun intended) The wider issue with all these things is who has a right to information and who has a right to withhold it for what reason?

    Tim V
    19 Mar, 2014 – 3:34 pm
    …. and on a related point, the reason underwater sonar detection has not been deployed, or at least trumpeted is easy to deduce. Because they know the aircraft is NOT as the American spokesman wanted us to believe, that it was at the bottom of the Indian Ocean. That statement by the way would infer a terrorist event, for why else would it crash?
    The problem with that is that no rational explanation has been forwarded for it. No terrorist organisation has come forward (again similar to Chevaline) We would for causation be back in “lone maniac” territory or state organised event. Was the US spokesman suggesting either of these?
    As I see it, there are a few alternatives. Maybe you can think of more.
    * If valuable cargo was on board it might be convenient to PRETEND it had crashed as cover for theft.
    * Alternatively if valuable cargo was stolen beforehand, it may be useful to crash the plane and pretend the cargo was lost as may have happened with that UN fight off Newfoundland (possibly)
    * Alternatively if it was necessary to prevent expertise of valuable cargo getting to China, detour or crash might have been considered worthwhile.
    * Alternatively as per the Sorensen/Bollyn theory, the operation was just to obtain an aeroplane that could be used in a terror event and blamed on an opponent.
    Whatever the reason (and there always must be one) given the fact that it didn’t crash as initially suggested, rather rules out 2 and 3 and points to either 1 or 4.

  52. Katie; As I understand it the pilot was not a jihadist, but he was political. X posted from the other thread in case you missed.

    It’s the Daily Mail…so…..photoshpped?

    “An image has emerged of the pilot of the missing Malaysia Airlines jet wearing a T-shirt with a ‘Democracy is Dead’ slogan as it has been revealed he could have hijacked the plane in an anti-government protest.

    Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah, a father-of-three, was said to be a ‘fanatical’ supporter of the country’s opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim – jailed for homosexuality just hours before the jet disappeared.

    It has also been revealed that the pilot’s wife and three children moved out of the family home the day before the plane went missing.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581817/Doomed-airliner-pilot-political-fanatic-Hours-taking-control-flight-MH370-attended-trial-jailed-opposition-leader-sodomite.html#ixzz2wKZxhury
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  53. Blue

    Penang (WMKP) is 10997 and Butterworth (WMKB) is 8000

    MAS has had terrible trouble over recent years, mainly competition from “budget airlines” operating in that area.

    Depending on MAS “check lists” a fire onboard (due to the amount of fuel onboard and its max landing weight) would require a “fuel dump” to take place.

  54. @Katie – re Diego Garcia. My comment from the other thread. (Would not wish to deprive newcomers of my wit.)

    NR 18 Mar, 2014 – 9:15 pm
    The WH was asked directly if the aircraft was at Diego Garcia. Presidential spokesperson Jay Carney said it was not. Which, translated into common English, means it is.

    For a totally gratuitous dig at the president, “If you like your plane, you can keep your plane.” (For non-US readers, it’s a take off on a slogan for which he’s famous regarding health care.)

  55. NR; ObamACARe.

  56. @Ben 19 Mar, 2014 – 3:45 pm
    “Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah, a father-of-three, was said to be a ‘fanatical’ supporter of the country’s opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim – jailed for homosexuality just hours before the jet disappeared.”

    “It has also been revealed that the pilot’s wife and three children moved out of the family home the day before the plane went missing.”

    But later the DM reported the pilot’s daughter “fled” Australia, like some common criminal, and returned to the same home. Which they remind us is only 15 minutes from the airport. More verrrry ominous facts. Who but a terrorist pilot would live conveniently near the airport?

  57. @Ben 19 Mar, 2014 – 3:54 pm
    “NR; ObamACARe.”

    Good one. A hidden clue.

    Another daft idea. Warren Buffet should offer a billion (US) dollar prize to the first person to find MH370. Another goldrush, with the sea covered in rowboats and the Himalayas in humanity.

  58. “Who but a terrorist pilot would live conveniently near the airport?”

    Indeed. And what pilots enjoy their vocation as much as a terrorist?

    It sure helps craft the narrative.

  59. Why do people continue to imagine that mobile phones work at high altitudes and massive distances from towers?

  60. “Another daft idea. Warren Buffet should offer a billion (US) dollar prize to the first person to find MH370″

    May they live long enough to enjoy spending some of it.

  61. Diego Garcia Passenger Terminal was closed for three days starting 8 March.

    Scroll down about half way, and it’s on the right


  62. Ben, yes as NR has pointed out ,we went through all that on the Al Hilli thread….then we were asked to move here.

    I see nothing wrong with the pilots being political, he went to the trial of the opposition leader who has been jailed for sodomy, everyone wondered about that,but it then turned out the man is related to him through marriage & his son in law.

    I was one shouting for the police to look at that simulator, but have since decided this is not about muslim ,jihadists or what has become the norm for terrorism.

    I strongly suspect this is a western intelligence op, but somewhere along the line it hasn’t quite worked out for them,people now demand answers more than they did.
    I hope I am right & that the plane is ‘not’ being stored for a terrorist plot, that thought is too awful to contemplate.
    The best that can come out of this crime is that security systems now get tightened in that part of the world & the transponder cannot be turned off inflight !

  63. Dre; Picked up on the Freescale 20? Freescale hit a 52 week high on March 7th

    What a coinky dinky.

  64. Katie; Diego Garcia could be a red herring. That flight plan on the simulator could have been placed by others. It would be nice to get something concrete going. I suspect someone has seen something…….even in the dark.


  65. It could well be Ben, but I put a lot of weight behind the Maldive sightings.

    I couldn’t get to the FB page, dicky connection here in the country, but,I love this on the DG military website;
    ‘Reminder To All Space-A Travers: Per DoD 4515.13-R, “C6.1.9. Conditions of Travel…….. There is no guaranteed space for any traveler.
    The Department of Defense is not obligated to continue an individual’s travel or return him or her to point of origin, or any other point.”


  66. Katie;

    That’s ‘Deadhead’ travel. The commercial airliners do it for employees, as space is available.

    I have searched for any possible connection to the heroin deaths of two former SEALS who were found aboard Maersk Alabama. Many contractors work as security against pirates. Supposedly (unconfirmed) they had just delivered a mysterious package. The timeline doesn’t jibe.

  67. Honey trap?

    “Kennedy, distinctive by his muscled physique and bald head, was said to be flirting with female croupiers and bar servers. After four hours in the casino they were asked to leave at 3am when it was time to close.

    CCTV footage from nearby restaurants caught them wandering off down an alleyway with the two women.

    The men were logged back on the ship at 6am with police now trying to find out where they went for the three hours before their return.
    It is not uncommon for former soldiers turned contractors to indulge in the shady temptations on offer in some of the most dangerous places abroad – away from the support and love of their families.

    But to those who knew Kennedy, he didn’t fit this cliche.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575749/Whats-chances-two-Navy-SEALs-turning-dead-room-Family-friends-demand-US-investigation-mystery-hookers-heroin-deaths-ship-famous-Captain-Philips.html#ixzz2wQr2ugbS
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  68. There’s something seriously wrong when data has to be protected.

    ‘Malaysian officials have confirmed they have received ‘some radar data’ from other countries about the missing Flight MH370 today – but claimed they were ‘not at liberty’ to release the information.
    Speaking at a press conference this afternoon, acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said Malaysia was continuing to co-ordinate the search for the missing Boeing 777-200ER.

    Confirming other countries were to take the lead on the search in other areas, he added:
    ‘I can confirm that we have received some radar data, but we are not at liberty to release information from other countries.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2584399/Malaysia-confirms-new-radar-data-missing-plane-flying-country-wont-say-security-reasons.html#ixzz2wQtKX0qM

  69. Katie

    There are specific rules about releasing “data” prior to an investigation.
    That’s just the way it is.

    Is it “dodgy” ? I don’t know. But it is the way things are done.
    The airlines “oblige” because it will be them that will be investigated in the end.

    However, from what I can tell, a satellite “received” a “ping” from the aircraft several hours into it’s “unknown” flight.

    What was that “ping”.
    Was that transmission “engine data” ?

  70. Thanks James.

    Apparently a ‘ping’ is similar to a hand shake just to let you know the plane is ‘alive’ !.
    It bounces off a beacon as long as a plane is powered up…that’s in flight or on the ground under auxiliary power.
    This is why it’s a red herring saying the plane was flying for X hours, they simply do not know if it actually was airborne or not.

  71. Malaysia confirms it has new radar data on missing plane flying over another country (but won’t say where for security reasons)


  72. It doesn’t quite work like that…. or that satellite will be picking up lots of “hiya’s” from all the traffic. That “data” wouldn’t make any sense.

    All systems work at passing data.
    Either by VHF over land or by satellites over the sea.
    Even IFF (Id Friend or Foe) is “data”.

    That satellite has to “ask” whatever system it is interrogating and then data is sent. Unless the data is “trying to send” and then “finds” the satellite it can transmit to.

  73. I suspect the ‘highly unusual suspension’ is for getting caught.

    “The suspension, which many have called “highly unusual,” follows the disturbing report of an illegal nuclear warhead transfer to South Carolina from Dyess Air Force Base in Texas, a military installation under the Strategic Air Command. That same day, Senator Lindsay Graham strangely announced that South Carolina would likely be subject to a nuclear attack if the United States did not immediately intervene militarily in Syria, all occurring at the moment of Giardina’s suspension.”

    Read more: http://www.storyleak.com/u-s-nuke-commander-suspended-alleged-gambling-investigation/#ixzz2wR80Wam8

  74. How would one promulgate another 9/11 that would trump all other ‘terrorist’ acts, yet leave NO evidence except maybe the origin of the nuke, which might conveniently have a Russkie signature?

  75. The “body in the bag” spy death in London looked like it was one party – maybe a criminal enterprise or another country’s spy agency – sending a message to MI6: Look What We Can Do.

    I wonder whether this is a spy agency – like the CIA – sending a message to another party – China’s government – saying: Look What We Can Do. We can make a plane with your citizens on it – including semiconductor engineers – disappear.

  76. Well there you are James, I was repeating what the guy on TV told us…….

    It’s getting hard to believe anything they say .

    I had a similar thought earlier today.
    What if it was an experiment to test what ‘could’ be done with a 777 by remote ,with all those techie geeks on board it’s possible, maybe not probable,but then they couldn’t get it back on track ?

  77. Ibrahim statements….http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/18/world/asia/malaysia-flight-anwar-pilot/

    “He alleged that the speculation had only gained traction as a result of the government trying to deflect attention from its “incompetent” handling of the crisis.

    “I think there’s a desperation by the government of the ruling leadership over the manner they managed the whole crisis. Clearly incompetent, contradictory statements, poor management of the crisis,” he said.”

    Incompetent handlers is an opportunity for other competencies.

  78. James; What of infrared satellites? I hesitate to suggest a conspiracy of silence amongst so many, but it is a question no media outlet I know of is pursuing.

  79. Katie

    Basically…. you just can’t “pick up” one ping.
    It has to be a series over a period of time.

    And that “ping” is “data”.

    So…. ping, ping, ping, ping.
    OR data, data, data, data !

    If that “data” is from the engines (or the “second channel”) then you can see (and I expect that it can be seen) what the aircraft is doing.

    By “what it is doing” I mean if the engines are set to cruise, working harder than normal, in approach, climbing etc etc etc.

    So they “know” what the aircraft was doing….they just don’t know where it was doing it !

  80. I find it hard to believe no data retention on satellite array. Heat signatures include the exhaust from a Boeing Rolls-Royce I would think.

    “US spy satellites detected no sign of a mid-air explosion when a Malaysian airliner lost contact with air traffic controllers, American officials said Wednesday.”

    Read more: MISSING MH370: US satellites found no blast – Latest – New Straits Times http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-us-satellites-found-no-blast-1.510492#ixzz2wRIoN9my

  81. “This is why it’s a red herring saying the plane was flying for X hours, they simply do not know if it actually was airborne or not”

    True, but that doesn’t make it a red herring. It tells us that the plane had not crashed, which is very significant.

  82. Ben

    My bet ? They have “data”.

    So “onboard fire” is “unlikely”. It was still flying.

    Hypoxia ? It is still possibility.
    And so is “pilot suicide” and also “hijack”.

  83. @James
    Good point about ACARS using VHF radio when in range of land and where the area is so equipped. It’s something MSM fails to mention.

    There was a reference to extending radio coverage in that area, especially Thailand, though don’t remember what year. It may be that radio coverage is currently only available near airports.

    Something else that’s not mentioned is there’s an intermediate company between the airline and the satellite provider.

    The SITA system is designed so that airlines set, and can change, the routing decisions — radio vs satellite — based on data rate and quantity of data as a trade-off against cost. Satellite charges are down to where it’s the equivalent to international phone roaming costs, but that’s still considerable for a fleet.

    Some airlines opt to hold non-critical data and dump it upon arrival at the gate via wifi Internet.

    Immarsat issued a press release saying Malaysian Airlines subscribe to their “Classic” service, which I take to mean their oldest service using 3 Geo-synchonus satellites providing coverage from 80 degrees north and south latitudes. Immarsat offer many other types of service, including zoned by area or country — more powerful and permitting smaller, notebook sized devices and higher data rates.

    Airlines flying polar routes use the Irridium satellite service.

    No one has said who pays for the Rolls Royce and Boeing ACARS service. Is that part of the airlines’ subscription or do those companies subscribe separately and build the cost into the price of the product?


  84. NR

    Basically….yes !

    With an engine manufacturer it is part of the “package” depending on what package you buy.

    ACARS also works the same.You buy a package. It can transmit more frequently than 30 mins. That is likely the longest setting there is.

    With ACARS (and other comms of such) you have two channels.
    If one fails, it transfers over to the second.
    You cannot fly with one channel only (except a ferry flight to maintenance base).

    In the main (over land) you transmit with VHF.
    Over sea you transmit via satellite.

    Hence ACARS transmitting over channel “one” did not fail.
    It would have “failed” if “both” channels did not transmit OR was “shut down”.

  85. Juan, yes good point & a valid one.

    My point was that at first when they talked about these ‘pings’ they took it for granted the plane was in the air for four [?] hours, only when we sleuths asked if the ‘pings’ could continue if the aircraft had landed.

  86. Katie….

    Read what you wrote. You say “pings”. Plural !
    They say “ping”.

    I believe what you wrote (pings) is correct. Not one. More than one.

  87. Sorry , the last line got cut.

    ‘So,only when we sleuths asked if the ‘pings’ could continue if the aircraft had landed…did it become clear that they could & that the plane may not have flown very far at all.’

  88. No James, there were 5 pings if I remember rightly. .

    ‘Malaysian authorities believe they have several “pings” from the airliner’s service data system, known as ACARS, transmitted to satellites in the four to five hours after the last transponder signal, suggesting the plane flew to the Indian Ocean, a senior U.S. official told CNN.’


  89. More on ‘pings’.

    “It’s not clear what the indication was, but senior administration officials told ABC News the missing Malaysian flight continued to “ping” a satellite on an hourly basis after it lost contact with radar. The Boeing 777 jetliners are equipped with what is called the Airplane Health Management system in which they ping a satellite every hour. The number of pings would indicate how long the plane stayed aloft.’


  90. James; The ascent to 45k “coffin corner’ (was it revised to 43?) and the rapid descent…..G-forces extant would disable crew, no?

  91. Katie

    Then that indicates the Malaysians authorities cannot be trusted at all !

    As in…
    They must have spoken to the US authorities and confirmed that flight data was transmitting (which I suspect to be true) or the US “own” the satellite !

    BUT the US could not “suggest” where it flew to.
    That would be impossible given that the “transponder was turned off”.
    Unless they have a primary radar track ? Or just guessing ? Or “know” ?

    From all of this, we can say that the a/c was “health” at that time.
    And I suspect “flying”.

  92. Ben

    I fly higher ! But in a different a/c.

    I have not got a clue why he went that high.
    Thinner air maybe, decrease your burn rate ?
    Hypoxia fuelled climb ?
    Systems failure ?
    I have no idea.

    Oddly they had a track !

    What they don’t say is, primary radar does have “calcs”.
    It has “interceptions calcs”. Even without a correct transponder “ping” or a correct IFF, you can track an intercept. That is after all the whole point.

  93. ” ACARS will be superseded by the Aeronautical Telecommunications Network (ATN) protocol for Air Traffic Control communications and by the Internet Protocol for airline communications.”


    ATN supercedes ACARS/FANS when?


    “In the early 1990s, the Boeing company announced a first generation FANS product known as FANS-1. This was based on the early ICAO technical work for automatic dependent surveillance (ADS) and controller–pilot data link communications (CPDLC), and implemented as a software package on the flight management computer of the Boeing 747-400. It used existing satellite based ACARS communications (Inmarsat Data-2 service) and was targeted at operations in the South Pacific Oceanic region. The deployment of FANS-1 was originally justified by improving route choice and thereby reducing fuel burn.

    The datalink control and display unit (DCDU) on an Airbus A330, the pilot interface for sending and receiving CPDLC messages.
    A similar product (FANS-A) was later developed by Airbus for the A340 and A330. Boeing also extended the range of aircraft supported to include the Boeing 777 and 767. Together, the two products are collectively known as FANS-1/A. The main industry standards describing the operation of the FANS-1/A products are ARINC 622 and EUROCAE ED-100/RTCA DO-258. Both the new Airbus A380 and Boeing 787 have FANS-1/A capability”

  94. James; It may have been fiction but I remember a movie where the pilot had to go into a steep dive to put out engine fire. Can’t remember the name of the WWII movie (B-17). But he was already at 35k, so like you say, if he was seeking thinner air.

  95. P.S.


    When it comes to “Carriers”…they want to avoid “legals” as much as possible.
    Do I trust them !!!!!

    Not a chance !

  96. Also; Eliminating cockpit chaos, how hard is it to send out a MAYDAY !

  97. James, what do you think of them saying the plane dropped to 5,000ft to avoid radar detection, not only does that put a strain on the aircraft but surely that’s a mountainous region & therefore highly dangerous.

    As Pakistan,India,Bangladesh all said [ we are told] they didn’t have any sign on their radar, it cannot be true.

    So more questions of where could they fly to at the height of 5,000ft, over the sea,which means surely they are searching in the wrong direction ?

  98. Aha ! It was BASED on a true story…Memphis Belle. No accounting for details.

  99. Ben

    No need to do that these days ! (Smiley face button).

    Plus, if there was an dual shut down, your air ram will pop out.
    Enough for “pan pan pan”.

    Job done. Position given.

  100. Hey james; If you want a smiley face…. colon/right Parentheses :)

  101. Ben

    Check out the South African 747 with a fire onboard (not engine).
    That will surprise you !

    But engine fires are not a problem. You get “paid” then.


    5000 over sea, that’s “okay”.
    5000 “in the mountains”…in an airline ! Scary !

  102. Ben
    Me like :)

  103. Ben
    19 Mar, 2014 – 7:32 pm by the same token it means they were monitoring the relevant area. It just depends on what the satellite is set up for. Just hot spots or other indicators as well. Of course that’s an area SSST was specialist in. In practice we know US strategic thinker have moved their focus of interest to the Indian Ocean. Obama confirmed it. All to do with perceived increased military threat from China added to sabre rattling over the disputed rock outcrops with the Japanese. Throw in N.Korea, an errant Chinese dependant, both with nuclear capability and I suppose you can see why. So China has deployed eleven satellites in the search it is said. Now how does that work when they are in fixed orbit and pre-programmed? And if China has 11 that can search, how many have the Americans (leaving aside the Europeans, Russians and others) got. I don’t doubt for one moment they have pictures of the passengers of MH370 waving out the windows. Nor have the naval assets been discussed. Just the Americans have the third (four carrier based strike groups) and seventh (22 vessels) fleets there, each vessel with huge anti-aircraft radar capability that augments land based facilities. “We have no idea what happened to the plane” MUST be a lie. If that little detail is unreliable I certainly wouldn’t trust any story that seeks either directly or by inference to implicate the flight crew.

  104. Tim;

    ” Now how does that work when they are in fixed orbit and pre-programmed?”

    My understanding is that they can be diverted from the program, but it is very expensive.

    Not that MILSPEC isn’t a synonym for budget overkill, and thrice redundant back-up.

  105. Techno: “I wonder whether this is a spy agency – like the CIA – sending a message to another party – China’s government – saying: Look What We Can Do. We can make a plane with your citizens on it – including semiconductor engineers – disappear”.

    If you get the message, so do the Chinese, one would assume. problem is even the CIA would not resort to doing away with this many people of so many nationalities, just to “prove the point”. Especially a point that can be proven with far less loss of life.

    OTOH, it is possible that there was some kind of a gambit to take over the plane but it failed. Somehow, I don’t think this is likely at this time. The technology is not there yet, especially when it comes to the interfaces with airplane hardware. Not that a cyber attack could not do some damage and perhaps that is what happened.

    I just don’t think that flying a boeing remotely is on the same level as flying a drone. The electronic capabilities may be there, but the civilian airplanes are not equipped as of yet for remote piloting to be practical. We’ll know such capability has been reached when we hear of remote piloting of certain military craft that are equipped to carry people.

  106. Fly-by-wire is an onboard function, as I’ve seen from published works. Remote control is outside the present realm but I would expect our best and brightest recruits could be ahead of the learning curve. Orientation, especially at night, makes flying remote control model planes difficult, but not impossible.

  107. @Tim @Ben
    The only satellites in fixed orbit are the Geo-synchronous ones, at an altitude of 35,786 kilometres (22,236 mi) above the Earth’s equator. They’re generally used for communications, satellite TV, etc.

    Surveillance and spy satellites are at much lower orbits, approx. 150 miles as I recall, with various orientations — mostly polar — and periods, so they view the earth as a series of strips, roughly every one-and-half hours apart.

    Some of the spy satellites can be repositioned to concentrate on areas of interest.

  108. http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/2014-03-18/malaysia-airlines-plane-area-in-mh370-search-now-larger-than-australia/1281410

    “Investigators believe it was diverted by someone with deep knowledge of the Boeing 777-200ER and commercial navigation…”

    No cite, and I would like to know who those are.

    How long a list of those with deep knowledge? Start interviewing them.

  109. NR;

    Early warning; heat signature…day or night.


    (DSP). The Defense Support Program is a strategic surveillance and early warning satellite system with an infrared capability to detect long-range ballistic missile launches, and has been operational for over 30 years.:

  110. From the 1st comment in Guardian on the execrable and hypocritical environmentalism, Craig.

    “Whats the strategic value?
    What’s been parked on there in the interim?
    Whats halfway being parked on there but its not finished yet?
    Is anyone else (apart from dark skinned islanders who presumably don’t count) going to move in, who they don’t want to move in, once they fuck off?
    The answers there somewhere.”

    Yes. The answer is always and perpetually somewhere.

  111. The Sultan of Brunei is one of the world’s richest men and he regularly parks his jumbo at Heathrow to hob-nob with the Queen. Brunei is completely dependent on the oil elite to extract his oil, i.e. UKUSKoreaIraq petroglobals , and completely dependent on the global zio-mafia to protect his gotten gains.

    If I was an Al Qaida/USUKIS/NWO tycoon/jihadi terrierist looking for a bit of ready dosh or regime change, I’d be landing my hostages at Brunei with a few marines and waiting for a very big bank draft before flying them to their chosen destinations.

    What is one supposed to do when the royal corgis raise their royal legs against the royal Brunei handbag? Smile sweetly and send to Harrods for another one.

  112. “What if it was an experiment to test what ‘could’ be done with a 777 by remote ,with all those techie geeks on board it’s possible, maybe not probable,but then they couldn’t get it back on track ?”

    Too complicated. It’s much simpler than that.

    The CIA would just offer the pilots more money than they could possibly imagine if they followed the instructions they were given to the letter and keep their mouths shut.

    The CIA just gets people to do what they want by offering to pay them for their cooperation and silence. It’s how it’s always worked.

  113. “problem is even the CIA would not resort to doing away with this many people of so many nationalities, just to “prove the point””

    I’m not so sure. This is the agency that engineered a successful coup in Iran in the 1950s, and tried to overthrow Castro in the 1960s. And they’re the ones we know about.

    If China is the next great superpower, it would be a grave threat to the dominance of the United States. There really is no precedence for this in the modern era.

    “I just don’t think that flying a boeing remotely is on the same level as flying a drone.”

    Why do people insist in this idea of “flying remotely”? You just buy the pilots off. Offer them a big annual income for the rest of their lives if they do what they’re told on one occasion, disappear to a new place with a new identity and keep their mouths shut. It has always been done this way.

    On the other hand, it could have just crashed.

  114. This from the Telegraph:

    “16.52 The pilots of the vanished Malaysian Airlines fight were not hijackers and are likely to have died trying to save the aircraft from an onboard fire, an expert in the Lockerbie trial has said.

    Billie Vincent, the former head of security at the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA), said he believed MH370 diverted off course in a desperate bid to reach safe harbour as the cabin filled with smoked.

    “As opposed to being hijackers, the crew were heroically trying to save the airplane, themselves and the passengers when this catastrophe hit,” he told The Telegraph.

    Mr Vincent was a key witness in the civil trial that followed the 1988 Lockerbie bombing, where families successfully sued Pan Am for $500 million in compensation.

    The former air traffic controller said he believed MH370 had suffered a “catastrophic event” that filled the cabin with smoke or noxious fumes shortly after the pilots made final contact with ground control at 1.19am on March 8.

    Mr Vincent, who helped Malaysia install security procedures at Kuala Lumpur airport, said smoke could have been caused by an electrical fire, hazardous materials in the cargo hold or a small bomb that failed to destroy the aircraft.”

    Pure speculation – what if the aircraft was headed on a course to DG and seen as hostile incoming?

  115. Craig
    20 Mar, 2014 – 12:55 am

    Thanks for that, I agree with you all you say, whole heartedly.
    I heard one EX-islander speaking only yesterday, he was explaining what happened & how he now lives in poverty.
    Utterly shameful ,particularly with all the PC hypocrisy we have to obey nowadays .

    So I hear a large piece of debris has shown up off the Australian coast this morning, we all wait with bated breath …………………

  116. “You just buy the pilots off. Offer them a big annual income for the rest of their lives if they do what they’re told on one occasion, disappear to a new place with a new identity and keep their mouths shut.”

    I would add to what I said earlier that as far as I can remember it was reported that the older pilot’s family had moved out of the family home a few days before the incident, which would support this, they were moving to their new location to start their new life.

  117. So an experienced pilot forgot to ‘aviate,navigate & communicate’.

    Today is day13,the day after an embarrassing handling of a mothers grief by the Malaysians yesterday.

    Apparently the Aussies have known about this debris for days,since Monday ……… but have only today scrambled the jets, what were they waiting for ?

  118. Mocyn69

    I’d be very wary of what an “expert involved in the Lockerbie investigation” has got to say.

    Firstly I am not convinced that the baggage “remained” onboard” the 747, but was placed onboard when the 747 landed at Heathrow. And from that, I doubt Libyan involvement in the Lockerbie bombing at all.

    Anyway….lets see what Australia turns up when it gets “eyes on” this debris that has been seen by satellite.

    This seems “unusual” IF the aircraft was “flying at low level”.
    The fuel burn rate of an aircraft flying at low level is massively increased and compared to an aircraft flying at cruise altitude, the distanced travelled is therefore significantly reduced.

    Lets wait and see.

  119. Missing Plane: ‘Objects May Be MH370 Debris’

    Two large objects spotted in the south Indian Ocean could be debris from the missing Malaysia Airlines plane, authorities say.


    I hope this latest news is not about Abbott wanting some publicity.

  120. If this is true then the australian defense will have to explane about why the money of the australian taxpayer had been wasted. That would stink enormously ….


    The JORN is so sensitive it is able to track planes as small as a Cessna 172 taking off and landing in East Timor 2600 km away. 

  121. We all sound [justifiably] sceptical about this find.

    As strong as the wings will be on a 777, I’m wondering how a 24 metre object can stand the impact of hitting the sea & not break in two ?

  122. I repeat:

    The JORN is so sensitive it is able to track planes as small as a Cessna 172 taking off and landing in East Timor 2600 km away. 

    They are searching in an area just 2230 km away from their west coast.

    What is that telling us?
    Was the australian RFAA on March-vacation, too, just like their malaysian and their indonesian airforce buddies?

  123. Apparently the Aussies have known about this debris for days,since Monday ……… but have only today scrambled the jets, what were they waiting for ?

    Better pictures, perhaps. See-

    Bit surprised that US and Russian military surveillance spaceware hasn’t come up with anything – but again, perhaps it has.

  124. @Katie
    I tried to find info on the Flight Data Recorder, and other emergency locaters. Like everything else, it’s throughly confusing with various models and changes over the years. Couldn’t determine what’s fitted on a 777.

    The relevant part is the pinger, which is external to the FDR and Cockpit Voice Recorder, collectively called Accident Data Recorders, and some new designs combine both functions in the same box. Lockheed has a patent on one that deploys when the plane hits water and has a flotation device. Don’t know if these are in use.

    Specs on the pinger: Maximum detection range
    A 37.5kHz (160.5dB re 1μPa) pinger can be detectable 1-2km from the surface in normal conditions and 4-5km in good conditions. A 37.5kHz (180dB re 1μPa) transponder pinger can be detected 4-5km n normal conditions and 6-7km in good conditions. Transponder 10kHz (180dB re 1μPa) range is 7-9km in normal condition and 17-22km in good conditions.

    So there are several types with two loudnesses and two frequencies. One expert on TV claimed a range of 5-10 miles and if the plane was deep you’d need to be above it to find it. Another expert said detection was difficult at depth, depending on marine thermal layers and underwater terrain — valleys and mountains. A third expert, who participated in recovery of the Air France 447 crash said that after finding the wreck two years after the accident with submersibles, they reviewed original search efforts and found they were directly above without detecting pings.

    Aircraft also have Emergency Locater Transmitters (1 or 2?) on the top surface of the plane, that transmit to satellite. I though these detached automatically when the plane hits water. Apparently they do not. Interestingly a 787 had a fire in the space above the cabin ceiling set off by lithium batteries in the ELT.

    For crashes at sea the ELTs are on each life raft and are activated by salt water. The emergency slides also serve as life rafts. For an emergency landing on land, survivors are told to find a life raft and pee on the ELT to provide salt water to activate it. I did not know that.

  125. Yes BB, I understand what you’re getting at, did you know ‘coincidently’ an American ship is in the area of this debris too ?

    I missed what it was, but I suspect it will be the US Navy !

  126. Forget this “find”. It is rubbish, and found south of Austarlia. What the hell where the plane doing there. En route to the Antarctic maybe?

  127. NR.

    Thanks for that, all very interesting.

    It does make sense for a black box to have a liferaft/airbag to inflate on impact,just like the one we used to carry on our own boat, add that to an automated satellite alarm sent to computers & what a lot of time & possibly lives it would saved.
    So how come both AF & this one seem to have neither ?

    I shall remember the tip about urinating on an ELT should the need ever arise. ;-)

  128. Just a strange coincidence, but the 1985 US hijacking of a civilian passenger airplane had been organised by “Robert Bubba Brodsky”.
    Nikolai Brodsky was on board of MH370 ….

    Not for the first time in history the US would have hijacked a civilian passenger airplane:


    In the night between Oct. 10 and 11, 1985 a scarcely known mission took place in the skies above the Mediterranean Sea.That night, several combat planes belonging to the Carrier Air Wing 17 (CVW-17) lauched from USS Saratoga (CV-60) to intercept the Egyptair Boeing 737 which was carrying the terrorists who had hijacked the Achille Lauro liner off Egypt.On October 7, 1985, four PLF militants men had hijacked the cruise ship. Holding the passengers and crew hostage, they directed the vessel to sail to Tartus, Syria, and demanded the release of 50 Palestinians then in Israeli prisons.After two days of negotiations (and the killing ofLeon Klinghoffer, a Jewish retired businessman who was in a wheelchair) the terrorists agreed to abandon the ship in exchange for safe conduct and were flown towards Tunisia aboard an Egyptian commercial airliner.On Oct. 10, while the Boeing 737 was taking off from Cairo, the “Super Sara” catapulted four F-14A (two belonging to VF-74 Be-Devilers and two belonging to VF-103 Sluggers), one E-2C (belonging to VAW-125 Tiger Tails), two KA-6D (belonging to VA-85 Black Falcons) and one EA-6B (belonging to VAQ-137 Rooks)  that had the task to intercep the airliner which transported the Achille Lauro hijackers.Another E-2C, three more F-14s and two electronic intelligence aircrafts (one EA-3B and one RC-135) took part in the mission planned by the CAG (Commander Air Group) of the CVW-17, Robert “Bubba” Brodzky.The mission was planned to be a night, lights out interception. The F-14s were vectored to the Boeing 737 by the E-2C and one VF-103’s Tomcat, exactly the BuNo 160904 side number 205, approaching the 737 from rear and below, was able to made the positive identification getting very close to airliner (about fifteen feet!!) to read its registration.The E-2C vectored five more Tomcats (even though some sources say that there were only three) to join the lights out formation just above the island of Crete. From that moment on, each communication with the Egyptian Boeing was done by the E-2C which used a VHF frequency to transmit the order to divert to Sigonella, in Italy.Only when the liner refused to comply with the order to divert, the E-2C ordered “LIGHTS ON, NOW!” that lit up all the F-14s surrounding the Boeing 737. The Hawkeye told to airliner crew that in one way or another they had to reach Sigonella and the 737 had to proceed to the airbase in Sicily.Once on the ground, the Tomcats closed the airspace overhead for all incoming aircraft, except two USAF C-141 cargos which were carrying Navy SEALs team. As the American forces surrounded the Boeing , they were surrounded by the Italian military security (belonging to the Air Force and Carabinieri – the Military Police) forces that claimed Italian territorial rights over the base.The diplomatic crisis was resolved after five hours of negotiations. The hijackers were left to the Italians that had to bring them to Rome with a special flight whereas the other passengers on the plane (including the hijackers’ leader, Muhammad Zaidan) were allowed to continue on to their destination, despite protests by the United States.At around 22.00 local time, on Oct. 11, the Egyptair B737 took off from Sigonella to Rome Ciampino airport. The special flight got a special escort by two F-104S Starfighter of the 36° Stormo (Wing) from Gioia del Colle, later joined by two additional F-104s from Grazzanise airbase.The 737 with its escort flight were later joined by some unknown aircraft, most probably U.S. F-14s, that approached the F-104s from behind. Although what happened next has never been fully disclosed, a sort of dogfight is believed to have taken place in the Tyrrhenian Sea while an EA-6B was jamming Italian radars.As the formation approached Rome, the USN fighters turned back.Even thought the events influenced the US-Italian diplomatic relations very negatively for quite some time, most probably, the night intercept was, until then, the most complex aerial anti-terrorist mission ever planned.The Be-Devilers of VF-74 were disbanded on 28 april 1994 after they spent their last days as Adversary Squadron simulating aircrafts as MiG-29, MiG-31 and SU-27. Instead in the 1995 the Sluggers of VF-103  taking the skull and bones  left by the disbanded VF-84 and changed their name into Jolly Rogers.Dario Leone for The Aviationist.com(image)Image credit: U.S. Navy

  129. “Australian security expert Neil Fergus says that if the two objects found ARE from flight MH370, it must have been flown there deliberately”


  130. Now there’s a sharp fella. I thought it was en route to Antarctica on its own

  131. Looks like this second thread on the Malaysia crash will end up like the second one on the unsolved Lake Annecy murders – nowhere.

  132. In 1985 (read the Egypt air hijacking by the US army), the pilot’s conversation and all radar contact with Egypt Air had been jammed by US military planes so that Egypt air had no way to communicate. Even the italian radar had been jammed.
    If the pilot of egypt air wouldnt have followed their instructions then they would have shot him down.

    I remember the “mumbling” heard by the JAL pilot in case of MH370.
    That could have been a result of jamming. Also the transponder and the malaysian radar might have been jammed. Perhaps nobody turned off the transponder. Perhaps they trird totalk to aircontrol. Perhaps they tried to send mayday.
    Everything had been jammed.
    Perhaps then the pilot tried to show them that he was in trouble by climbing into an invalid height. Unfortunately they couldnt see this unsual flight maneuvre at air control screens as he got jammed.

    That is my theory.

    They had done that already at least once before. We have proof.

    Any opinions?

  133. If the debris is confirmed as that of the missing plane (my guess is that it will be) then I’ll be interested to see what narrative we are given. If we are told that the pilot simply flew the plane to that location and crashed it then the mystery deepens. That’s because it doesn’t explain the ringing cell-phones, which must have been on land and within range of a base station.

    The debris was not picked up by Australian satellites until last Sunday, over a week after the disappearance. That gives plenty of time for the plane to be hijacked, flown to Diego Garcia, personnel and cargo removed and the plane then flown remotely to current location and ditched, maybe with the dead bodies on board. Just a thought.

  134. Marlin, I don’t know what you think, but I’m wondering if we haven’t got shades of Chevaline “counter intelligence” here? Is it possible the British essentially “have put the spoke in” an Americano/Israel plan? I know it sounds a bit far-fetched so what do I base it on?

    Well really just circumstantially on the way the “story” had to change with staged revelations. I’m suggesting that when the initial story that the plane had probably ditched as it approached Vietnam based on loss of communication and radar, the fact that it had turned West must already have been known not only from this but from the “military” radar as well. Malaysia Airlines reported the disappearance nearly five hours later, an hour after the plane was due to land in Beijing.

    Everyone has assumed this was Malaysian military radar but if so why wasn’t it included in the early announcements. It could have been from foreign owned military radar information brought in subsequently to defeat the initial story line.

    Then the real reason I got going on this tack was the statement in a Times story at least (other outlets may have said the same) that the satellite that really put a nail in the crash hypothesis, with the news that a full seven plus hours after the disappearance (initially “5 hrs”) it was still registering a “ping” from the plane, was British owned “Inmarsat”.

    ” Inmarsat plc is the leading provider of global mobile satellite communications services. Since 1979, Inmarsat has been providing reliable voice and high-speed data communications to governments, enterprises and other organizations, with a range of services that can be used on land, at sea or in the air. Inmarsat employs around 1,600 staff in more than 60 locations around the world, with a presence in the major ports and centres of commerce on every continent. Inmarsat is listed on the London Stock Exchange (LSE:ISAT.L).” http://www.inmarsat.com/news/inmarsat-statement-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/

    “As well as merchant shipping, our customers include governments, airlines, the broadcast media, the oil and gas industry, mining, construction, and humanitarian aid agencies – to name just a few.

    They connect to our fleet of 10 satellites using a range of equipment, including global handheld satellite phones and notebook-size broadband internet devices, as well as specialist terminals and antennas fitted to ships, aircraft and road vehicles.”

    It has four generations of satellite, the first a BAE collaboration; the second with Lookheed Martin/Marconi; not sure about the third though it is “European”; the fourth seems to have been built by Boeing.

    Incidentally: “20 March 2014
    Retired United States Air Force General to join Inmarsat Board
    General C. Robert Kehler will bring huge breadth of knowledge to non-executive director role.”

    “It has not stated which satellites were involved. Inmarsat operates about 10 geostationary satellites through which it handles satcom datalink transmissions including those from the aeronautical sector.” http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/inmarsat-confirms-automated-signals-from-mh370-397034/

    “Metro” had this a day ago: “The last ‘ping’ signal from the aircraft was detected by a satellite in an area near a US naval base on Diego Garcia and Maldives.

    HaveeruOnline has also quoted a local aviation expert as saying the plane spotted above Maldives is ‘likely’ to be missing MH370 as instances of any aircraft flying over the island at the reported time was rare.

    A total of 26 countries are helping to search for the missing plane – but Maldives is not one of them.” http://metro.co.uk/2014/03/18/flight-mh370-residents-on-remote-island-in-maldives-saw-jet-matching-missing-malaysia-airlines-planes-description-4640688/

    So it would appear that although very little specific information has been made available to the public, it was British owned Inmarsat with undoubted very strong links to British military and intelligence, that let it be known that crucially the plane had not ditched at least five hours after it had been supposed to.

    If the plan was to “disappear” the plane in a faked sea crash, it appears to have been a British company that ruined it!

  135. Just to add a point to “Malaysia Airlines reported the disappearance nearly five hours later, an hour after the plane was due to land in Beijing.” “or somewhere else!”

    In other words that time delay rather co-incidentally corresponds to Inmarsat confirmation that it was still “pinging” and the time it could have landed elsewhere (Diego Garcia seems to be a favourite) before intensive search was initiated.

    There must be satellite images available to nation states (incidentally China it is said now have 21 tasked!) of those runways and what’s on ‘em.

    One final point: of the 18 ships said to be deployed in the search only one US vessel apparently and similarly negligible numbers of US aircraft despite having massive 7th fleet somewhere in the vicinity. Isn’t this rather strange given the fact that the US is on a charm offensive in the region?

  136. Wall Street Journal

    Critical Data Was Delayed in Flight Search

    Four days went by before officials acted on satellite data showing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 flew for several hours away from the area being covered by a massive international search—a delay from which investigators are still working to recover.


  137. There is a report that before the doomed flight, MH370 delivered “radar equipment” to Kuala Lumpur! Does anyone know what the plane was doing, countries/cargoes etc prior to the missing flight. Have the authorities ever released details of the cargo manifest on its way to Beijing? We know there were personnel on board the US might not have wanted to get there but how about the cargo bay also?

    I agree that it’s a bit unlikely the US would intentionally crash the plane but it might hi-jack it to prevent vital stuff getting into the hands of an enemy. It was very good at hi-jacking people. It’s not something it could readily admit to however. Would allies or enemies blow the gaff? If undertaken it’s a very desperate and high risk strategy to adopt, especially in the age of the uncontrollable internet.

  138. Shades of 9/11?

    19 Mar, 2014 – 5:00 pm


    “Just follow the money”?

  139. As respects share price of Freescale Semi Conductor Ltd that in three months to March 2014 increased over 60%, is the fact that despite loosing twenty of its expert staff bound for China, the share price hasn’t, it would appear, fallen back as one might have expected. Why is that now I’m wondering. MH370 can’t be considered a serious set back at least.

  140. @Tim V
    20 Mar, 2014 – 2:02 pm

    This for the Telegraph:

    “11.25 The satellite pictures were taken four days ago, according to the date stamp on them, but there was still confusion from the Malaysian authorities this morning about when exactly they were taken.”

    So now we’ve also got date-stamped photos, but confusion about when they were actually taken!

    FFS everybody .. make sure your date stamps are correct! I’m gonna check my devices now!

  141. Katie
    20 Mar, 2014 – 7:48 am the latest I read is that the dicovery of item of debris SW of Perth was discovered SUNDAY but only annouced todays briefing. The Minister apparently had to be corrected when he stated it had been discovered today. I agree with your observation: if so important why effectively four day delay in making public?

  142. Mary
    20 Mar, 2014 – 8:09 am if the debris really is from MH370 and not just planted, there is no logical reason for it being there. It is en route to where? The South Pole? No terrorist group has claimed responsibility so only auto pilot on crazy course till plane ran out of fuel or maniac pilot on crazy suicide trip would make any sort of sense for it being there. Hi jacking or intentionally a plane and its many occupants is unlikely without a gesture or motivation, and here we have none. Not to mention what over two hundred passengers were doing all the time. Did they think they were still on their way to Beijing, had they all been rendered unconscious/dead by the climb to 45k and a depressurised cabin or rendered compliant some other way without weapons rather like the Shanksville plane claimed to be again? Israel and US introduced air marshalls on their aircraft (in the case of US famously withdrawn to save cash immediately prior to 9/11). Are they still employed? Does MAS have them? All rather tangential I agree.

  143. just got to yours
    Kenneth Sorensen
    20 Mar, 2014 – 9:30 am. Apologies if I repeated your observation that I got to when I made mine. Wouldn’t want you to think I was plagiarising without attribution.

  144. Tim, so that’s changed already !

    CNN said Monday & later said 4 days, so that’s the foist I’ve heard of Sunday .
    I seriously wonder if this information has been released today as a sop to the grieving relatives after the fiasco at the press conference yesterday .

  145. ‘foist’ ?…..I seem to have gorn all oirish!!!

  146. Kenneth Sorensen
    20 Mar, 2014 – 10:32 am You will have noticed that Chevaline was the TWENTIETH anniversary of that big event as well as the FORTIETH for Munich.

  147. Katie
    20 Mar, 2014 – 10:34 am I never fail to be amazed by the outpourings of “experts” wheeled out for such occasions. So do we think they could have got there by ACCIDENT? Pilot looses his way or forgot where he was going?

  148. Why did the pilot race down towards the South Pole. Was it in order to escape Immarsat, those satelites all are geo-sstaionary and do not cover anything south of the 78th parallel? Just asking, because the whole thing seem stupid, so may be this stupiity makes sense somewhere.

  149. It can’t be a fire obviously.

    When that was purported to happen, he was about 120 miles
    of the east coast.


    His sharp veer back to the south west, took him on course
    for either Kota Bahru or RMAF Gong Kedak,

    He could easily have landed at either one, though of course
    the former would have been his first choice.



    As you can see from the flight route map, he flew right past
    Butterworth. Right underneath the noses of those clowns
    at the radar consoles there.

    They have a very capable state-of-the-art 3D phased array
    radar there, with a detection range of up to 280 miles.

    Same with that at Gong Kedak.

    Both radars definitely tracked the plane as it wandered from
    east to west across the peninsular, a duration of at least 45 minutes.

    If they had scrambled fighters to intercept and escort it down
    safely, the whole world wouldn’t have to come running to
    help search all over the oceans in both hemispheres like fools.

    A colossal failure of the Malaysian air defenses.

    If this had been a preemptive strike, say by Singapore’s F-15SGs,
    the airfield would have been flattened in two minutes.

    They’d be zooming away home before they even knew what hit them.

  150. Tim, yes Chevaline was 40 years after the Olympics in 1972, but what do you imply happened in 1992. The Barcelona Olympics?

  151. * It might not be wreckage
    * The pilot may have gone psycho and set an auto course toward the southern ocean before asphyxiating all at altitude.
    * The plane could have landed for reasons discussed and dummy wreckage has been dumped
    * The plane may well have been shot down as a 9/11 type threat by any of the air forces, in response to which which all governments would help to cover up.

    Also interesting that ACARS is in play to help clarify this investigation but the fact that UA 175 ACARS was communicating with ground stations in Pennsylvania 20 minutes after it crashed into WTC is not mentioned no-where. Except here.

  152. IF that is the plane. IF!!!!!!
    Not an exciting solution but a rational one:

    Quickly check google maps and enter

    43° 54′ 26”N 87°28’27”E


    43° 54′ 26”S 87°28’27”E

    And you can see


    The city suffered unrest in May 1989 with 150 injuries, and was the site of major rioting in July 2009 triggered by violence in Southern China between ethnic Han Chinese and Southern Xinjiang Uyghurs. Official reports of the 2009 riots say that nearly 200 people were left dead, but the actual toll is unknown and disputed. Reports of extensive retaliation against the Uyghur minority have circulated ever since, despite the Chinese government having shut down access to emails and overseas phone calls for over six months

    Hijacked but a false coordinate? South instead of North?   
    Did the hijackers make a dramatic error?

    James, your term as an expert. It had been night! Possible?

  153. And another thing. It is a major emergency when a plane loses its transponder signal. This is because only the transponder signal gives the plane’s altitude and, in busy air corridors, its loss dramatically increases the risk of collision. I believe that when the transponder signal is lost and radio contact cannot be made with the crew, jets are scrambled to escort the plane and report its altitude. My question to the Malasian authorties would therefore be: did you scramble fighter jets to locate the plane and, if not, why not?

  154. If it would be my decision then i would send an airplane to …

    43° 54′ 26”S 87°28’27”E

    … to locate the blackboxes in case the parts seen are parts of the plane.

    Maybe i am earning the $ 1 million prize money from warren buffet then ?


  155. Bluebird: that’s a good find.

  156. Tim, in reply, no I think… IF… it is part of MH370 it was ‘planted’… [ or should I say ‘plopped ‘ ? ] there , not crashed at all.

    With all the crowd sourcing on Tomnod how come they missed it ?

    Also, surely something of such a size would fold or break if dropped from a great height , I paced out 24 metres & really that is one great length to stay intact when hitting the sea.

  157. Blue….

    What is more amazing is the flight missed the Indonesian Air Force.
    That looks deliberate.

    A North track. then a West track (North West track ?),then a South track.
    Certainly suggests a “hijacker” that knew what he was doing.

  158. ….and you would have to be madder than a box of frogs to even think you could enter Chinese air space without your transponder “on”.

  159. @Tim V 20 Mar, 2014 – 3:54 pm
    “am I never fail to be amazed by the outpourings of “experts” wheeled out for such occasions.”

    CNN at one point had 50 experts on standby in the green room to cover any contingency. Don’t know how many of these are paid or do it as for prestige or self-promotion. (The topic of Internet security and cyber-warfare brings out droves of self-promoters. With MH370 we’ve been spared those.)

    Some experts, particularly pilots who have recent experience on 777s, are knowledgeable. Many of the others are Former Directors of Agencies. If they ever had any hands-on technical knowledge it was 40-60 years ago, and I expect most of them were promoted or dropped in to their lofty positions via politics.

    A few of the really old ones embarrass themselves. Example, one old-timer couldn’t understand how the plane could ping a satellite since sound waves don’t travel in space. He was thinking of submarines and underwater pings.

  160. Well… finally worked out where that (or those) “pings” came from !

    On a triple 7 the SATCOM radio pack is in the rear, up in the ceiling.
    Guess “whoever” missed a trick there.

  161. The “next” question.
    If a total electrical failure (from a chain reaction)…

    Engines will run.
    Hydraulics will run (the engines are).
    Packs still run (no on/off even if the breakers pop) hence SATCOM “ping”

    Pressurisation (over ?)
    Thrust levers (Probably won’t work or erratic ?)

    The RAT (little turbine powered by airflow !) would deploy, so minimal electrics.
    …and comms ! ….and NAV !

    T’is weird this.
    Surely the 777 SiM guys have tried this.

  162. With surveillance overlords and their bullet-nose flashlights up our arses, a plethora of military and civilian sats (including infrared) probing for gnat-shit in rat-scat, a 777 cannot be effectively and competently tracked.

    I digress…

  163. How to steal an airframe.

    Joystick? Although fly-by-wire is an onboard function, I see no reason why a UAV being flown remotely couldn’t be accomplished in a 777 . Field-of-view from a camera (drone) makes it easier for the operator, but fly-by-sight is possible if the shadowing rogue-jet merging into MH 370’s radar image accompanies the target. JMO


  164. FoxNews commentators are increasingly vexed that the US hasn’t taken over the entire investigation and solved the mystery quickly. “Is there no way to force ourselves on the incompetent Malayasians,” they ask.

    Let me suggest Homeland Security declare some terrorist, wanted dead or alive, was a passenger using a fake name. That would justify intervention.

    Most reports say the world-renowned FBI has the pilot’s flight simulator’s hard drives at their US headquarters, to reconstruct yesterday’s notorious deleted files.

    A CNN expert let slip they did not have the originals but copies of the drives. Either that’s for legal reasons and Malaysia needs to retain original evidence, or Malaysians aren’t as stupid as we’re told, and are protecting against the FBI dramatically announcing discovery of terrorist connections or visits to bondage pages. Or he’d printed-out cigarette coupons.

  165. Inmarsat executive being wheeled out on Newsnight now!!!! Linked to story that Malaysians delayed data was passed ten days ago but wasn’t used within context that the debris COULD be “credible” lead. In Chevaline terms “It’s definitely the motorcyclist.”

  166. Inmarsat told Malaysia on the 10th March that the plane WASN’T in the area in which they continued to search and didn’t either apply this intelligence or inform the public. Make no doubt this BBC critical line, plus the British firm speaking on camera, would not happen without FO/MI6 approval. He also said after the info was passed Tuesday 11th US sent ships to the south on the 13th. Note that bit of information, it could be important not least because as I said earlier, only one US ship was mentioned in the 18 specified.

    The other expert represented “Blue Water Exploration” that appears to have Florida/Australian connections. His line was that with the passage of time, currents, drift etc its unlikely the plane will be located or recovered. Mmmm that’s convenient. The firm advised on the following.

    “April 2011 – The wreckage of Air France Flight 447 has been found at a depth of 3,900 metres by a team led by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute using the Waitt Institute’s twin REMUS 6000 Autonomous Underwater Vehicles. David Mearns of BWR provided expert advice during the search to both the UK Air Accident Investigation Branch and France’s Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses. Specifically David advised the AAIB and BEA about the most probable location of the wreckage based on his analysis of the leeway drift of floating wreckage and bodies recovered after the crash. Keith Conradi, Chief Inspector of Air Accidents at the AAIB, praised David’s “invaluable contribution” and commented: “that the position predicted by David was shown to be remarkably accurate.”

  167. Indeed! LOL Mochyn69
    20 Mar, 2014 – 2:49 pm

  168. A point I made earlier uan Kerr
    20 Mar, 2014 – 4:58 pm. I agree it’s an important one. Standard protocol especially since 9/11 ((it was altered briefly in the US immediately before) to scramble fighters if commercial planes fail to respond. So why hasn’t Malaysia been asked to explain not only when it went dead but even less inexplicably when it returned over Malaysian airspace?

  169. I agree with your sensible point NR
    20 Mar, 2014 – 7:03 pm. I don’t doubt for a moment there are true experts in everything. (A maxim our science teacher liked was endeavour “to know something about everything and everything about something” which remains an unfulfilled ambition in my case I hasten to add) My point was that who speaking about what is almost as important as what they say. The media is dominated by a limited number of “talking heads”. They are the “favourites” often excluding the people who really know what they are talking about. Rupert Murdoch’s advice to Rebecca Brooks may be salutary. It was to keep out of the public eye. It’s why you seldom see the makers and shakers being interviewed and particularly sensitive political issues are at stake. When they do, particularly with an ostensible criticism of a national government or investigation, you can be sure it would be considered response with British Government consulted and blessing. It makes me even more certain of my earlier point and a similar to the device employed in the Chevaline mess.

  170. Tim V 2:02 pm. You may be on to something here, especially in [tacitly?] assuming that I am “on the job” of connecting the dots and starting the layer removal process, using my my oh so special “backward engineering” tool kit.

    As always, and you have already started to do, the best place to start in is to reconstruct the timing of various events and then look whether a pattern emerges of things that either did not seem to happen in a timely manner, or required all kinds of position reversals to ‘re-orient” the narrative.

    There are time points we either know for sure or can surmise/believe with high degree of confidence. These include that final voice transmission, the time (range) the plane went off the civilian radar grid (transponder off), the ACARS turn-off time (range), the time point at which the Malaysians announced officially the plane went missing, and the planned landing time at Beijing which didn’t happen.

    Then with somewhat less certainty we have the time at which malysian military radar claimed to have detected the plane (only one point? two time points?, and the time the Thai military has finally admitted to having detected it.

    Then come the Imarsat satellite “pings” over several hours, all the way to 8:11AM, supposed to be the last one, which should provide a nearly independent set of time points (unfortunately not correlated with location).

    May be we should have a hand plot of these two time lines, with a confidence level attached to each point (based both on the officials’ and our own intuition as to how much they can be believed).

    With this at hand, we can now superpose a separate time chart which will list the points in time when we know information was disclosed to the Malaysians and the time they chose to either reveal it, and/or adjust the search parameters and/or retract previous information. To this group belongs this strange 4-5 hour delay (is it more) for the Imarsat satellite data to be disclosed, which you discussed. And at a later point the 4 day delay between the time the Australian satellite saw the images and the time they were officially revealed (4 days!). Somewhere in between there’ll be the radar data of a third country that the Malaysians don’t feel at liberty to disclose, which we do not, as of yet know.

    I agree Tim V, that those “pings” which are apparently taken now as a certainty, made hash of the earlier time line as broadcast by the malaysians, considerably extending the flight time range, and taking it well out of the South China sea first search region. They led to the now-famous arcs that guide the current search. Arcs that appear to bypass the Maldives as well as Diego Garcia, and in which we all place the greatest confidence (assuming perhaps someone knew what they were doing when plotting them and had access to the input data (satellite position etc.).

    So, what we have so far, is one time line for the plane during the first 1-2 hours, a second timeline detailing the time gaps between information given to the Malaysian vs disclosed by them publicly, and a chart of time data based on “pings” out to the last and final “ping”. It was stated somewhere that the reason we cannot have the “arcs” corresponding to mid-point pings is because they may have been erased and written over (I think I saw that from a commenter at The Guardian, not from some official reply to reporters that never seem to ask the most pertinent questions).

    So far, so good, but the interesting part comes once we try try to come up with a corresponding matrix of places where the plane could be, corresponding to the different time points.

    I think only once we have all these elements together in one place can we start venturing to who told what when, before speculating on the why. I am not ready to do this yet, because I think we need a bit more information before dwelling on the various players. he one thing that is clear so far is that by all accounts, the Malaysians know more than they are telling. As do, I suspect, those in charge of the Imarsat satellite data. As do the Americans, which we’d be fools not to suspect given their dense satellite and radar coverage. Unlike Chevaline, the outlines of a potential cover-up are not yet, at least to me, though I’m beginning to see something like an outline.

    Sorry for the long post restating so much of what is already known and been discussed. My excuse is that sometimes, building a time-space matrix is useful, especially when the motives and the protagonists are unknown (and perhaps destined to remain so, we’ll see). At least it’s useful for me as a way of organizing the known information (known knowns), making it clearer which are the known unknowns (eg, the “arcs”), the unknown knowns (e.g., radar data from more parties) and the unknown unknowns (which we cannot do anything other than guess at this time).

  171. As there’s little to report at present, why has SKY not shipped Kay Burley off to the Maldives to interview those who saw a plane flying low early that morning ?

    Have we heard of any leading journalist doing that ?

    I gather there’s quite a number of people who saw it so surely it’s worth the effort .




  172. Christmas island………. Residents are mainly Chinese .

    They also have a problem with immigrants…could the sighted wreckage be one of their boats ?


  173. Location. Flight path.

    1. The map I suspect is based on the “final” ping.
    2. Previous “pings” would indicate a direction of travel.
    3. The “pings” appear to be generated by SATCOM transceivers “failing” to On/Run.

    If that is the case, why produce the “upper” ?

  174. @Tim V 20 Mar, 2014 – 11:17 pm
    “Standard protocol especially since 9/11… to scramble fighters if commercial planes fail to respond.”

    In spite of that there are several recent incidents in the US of commercial airliners landing at the totally wrong airport, sometimes with too-short runways. In one of case they took off again, and the flight crew wouldn’t have reported the error, except the flight attendants narked. None were detected by ATC.

    There’s also turmoil in the ICBM missile command, with officers disciplined and breaches of protocol, such as leaving blast doors open.

    An airline pilot forum claimed security in South East Asia is lax. We’ve learned of the babes-in-the-cockpit, but the same applies to ATC especially in light-traffic areas at night. India admitted some island radars are switched off at night. Even if radars are active how attentive are operators? Reputedly in Malaysia many jobs are political patronage; impossible to fire or discipline.

    Second thing. How much information, mis-information and dis-information can we endure. In the Chevaline affair, it was mostly the press and the police. In MH370 there are layers upon layers of intervening experts on highly technical subjects.

    Inmarsat finally clarified one point. Each aircraft has a unique ID when it pings. Why couldn’t any of the experts explain that? It’s no secret, though I couldn’t find the details on the web.

    An expert said he’d talked to the flight crew of one plane and they were all unaware that turning off ACARS did not turn off the satellite receiver/transmitter that does the pinging, which must be disabled from the equipment room under the cockpit, so that isn’t common knowledge.

    Still divergent opinions about how the Emergency Locater Transmitters work — some experts say there are two on the 777 and they deploy automatically upon a crash at sea. Which conflicts with what I said yesterday. Think most of this is from media reporters and some experts confusing the squawk transponders, with ACARS data unit, with Inmarsat satellite box, with ELTs and possibly the FDR/CVR boxes and their pingers.

    Fox interviewed a senator from one of the intelligence committees. He appeared on the show to reassure people the FBI was working 24/7 to recover deleted files. Then the interviewer asked a strange technical question about the electrical system on the 777. The senator, if he even understood correctly, says Boeing told committee that it does X.

    Interviewer later asks resident experts about this and the all say it’s not true. Interviewer goes, “But the senator said…”

    Next an ex expert from the intelligence community says from what insiders have told him, combined with his own intuition, indicates plane was flown to Pakistan, though it’s not likely there any more.

    Best comment from Yahoo Answers regarding the latest satellite pics, “I could have taken a better resolution picture with my cell phone!”

  175. NR, see james’ comment at 7:57pm about the location of the SATCOM transmitter – he says it’s in the rear ceiling. If he is right, and I assume he has looked into this, that would explain why pilots don’t even realize it’s there.

    Also, james – thanks for that link to the map from 7:20am. It’s interesting – kind of answers (or tries to ) your question (and many others’) about the other pings. two of those earlier time arcs could lead straight to the Maldives or to Diego Garcia. yet we are asked to only consider the last transmission point.

    Another question – fuel for the flight was reportedly (per malaysan transportation Min.) just enough to get to beijing plus maximum another hour (he said 1/2 hour) for potential diversion to another airport if there’s emergency. yet, we now know the flight kept going on for nearly 7.5 hours! and that means it took on more fuel than normal, especially given the greater burn rate at lower altitudes, which we hear he took. that not even taking into account the various maneuvers we are hearing about (for example, the one seemingly taken to avoid indonesian radar)! How do we square the potential distance traveled with the fuel supposedly taken in and the likely burn rate? the plane either had more fuel than normal or it didn’t. And if it did, surely that means there was some irregularity at the airport? and surely somewhere there are records indicating that? So how come no one says anything about this rather obvious point?

  176. “An airline pilot forum claimed security in South East Asia is lax”

    Ever been to Europe !!! Ever been to the U.S. !!
    Airline (and airport) “security” is lax full stop.

    Recently “deadheading” homeward on an airline, I noted an F/A passing a drink to the flight deck….with her back to me, she was having a chat with the pilots through the half open door.

    So where was the “guard” F/A stood facing the cabin ?
    A minor infringement you may say…. !

    How about the baggage handling at some airports.
    Roughly how many bags “go missing” per year !
    They don’t “go missing” they get loaded onto “unknown” aircraft.
    So the “reconciliation” has failed then. What 3/5 per 1000 is acceptable.

    And people wonder why private jets do a brisk business !

    P.S. Don’t get me onto “pilot suicide”. Some of the “fruit loops” I have met whilst trotting the globe is unbelievable.
    Stressed out, divorced, big mortgages, missing their “once a weekend” visit to see their kids due to working Saturday again, paying for the “divorce”….and working for a “big airline” is no fun at all.

    Especially if they’re facing possible “redundancy” and disliking the prospect of working for a “tin pot” three-sectors-a-day “hopper”.

  177. I would say 7,5 hours is just in the range possible, because we initially heard it had fuel for the 5 hour 40 minutes flight to Bejing plus 2 hours spare capacity. But you are right if it has flown low it would have burnt more. But why fly low over the ocean? Over the ocean they could well have flown in normal height.

  178. Marlin

    Good point. Generally (on one of those) it’ll be a company SOP that dictates what he carries with regard fuel and reserves, of course depends on alternatives, an extended hold, divert options and possible further hold (no one wants to declare an emergency at your divert !).

    All of that will be written up, so it will be a “known”. Again “unreleased” !
    But that will just be “protocol” prior to the investigation that will follow.

  179. Marlin

    The SATCOM radio packs are in the rear.
    Meaning the breakers can be pulled (for example)on the flight deck, but the SATCOM doesn’t “turn off”. It “defaults”, for want of a better word, to “run”.
    As in, it’s not “on/off”. It’s “on/run”.

    That’s why (I suspect) the “pings” were picked up (six I think has been mentioned in the press conference of today).

  180. Found this by accident re ACARS. Clearest explanation I’ve seen. A bit technical but readable. See comments at bottom. Even some of them are confused.

    The actual takeoff fuel load might be available in the first ACARS transmission. IF that’s included in the service to which the airline subscribed and IF there was an ACARS transmission before shutdown of ACARS. Above source claims there’s one per hour, determined by the far end (Inmarsat) and not the aircraft. Or if ACARS sent data via VHF radio while in range of land.

  181. NR

    Think of ACARS like a “text” message.
    You might text and it can do it automatically.
    Over land it’s sent by VHF. Over sea it’s sent by satellite.
    In “auto” it depends what package you have as to how many times it sends.

    Now imagine you don’t have a lot of cash and go for a poor package.
    The “texts” get saved up….and it’s sent in a “burst”.
    Now imagine you have a lot of cash and go for the better package
    You texts will be more frequent.

    And depending where you are….determines which way you send it !

    Now if you turn your phone off…. it really isn’t off.
    It still “responds” to the the masts and “pings”.

    That’s a simplest way to think of it.

    That’s the easiest way to think of ACARS.

  182. “The question is why the hijacker(s) did not prevent the plane from responding to pings: most probably, being a networking detail, not even pilots know that their system/antenna respond “I am here” even if the SATCOM is not being used by any onboard systems”

    And that I answered in an above post.
    The packs aren’t “off”.

  183. Just a thought about “six pings”.
    The first at 02.11. The last at 07.11. And no 7th (at 08.11).

    If so, that gives the current search area (ish).
    But that would/should indicate direction also ?

  184. If it realy is MD370 it could be the Israelis having got cold feet. Today people are so informed thanks to the uncontrollable internet, taht they cannot pull off another 9/11. so they decided to abort mission and crashing the craft into the sea. The passengers will never tell whether they briefly had a stopover at some Island. The black boxes will have been removed at the stop-over.

    Flash back

    This crucial story has never appeared in the big NYC papers, or anywhere else. Christopher Bollyn included it in his famous Solving 9-11 book. It tells the eery story of how a digital exercise which included a mock plane-into-building” crash on the morning of September 11. and confused officials, as to whether the hi-jacking of aircrafts was part of the exercise.


    Post-Standard, The (Syracuse, NY) – January 20, 2002
    Author: Hart Seely staff writer

    Also published in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania:

    UNTOLD STORIES // ‘We were suddenly no kidding under attack’
    Patriot-News, The (Harrisburg, PA) – February 3, 2002
    Author: Hart Seely, Of The Syracuse (N.Y.) Post-Standard

    At 8:40 a.m., Deskins noticed senior technician Jeremy Powell waving his hand. Boston Center was on the line, he said. It had a hijacked airplane.

    “It must be part of the exercise,” Deskins thought.

    At first, everybody did. Then Deskins saw the glowing direct phone line to the Federal Aviation Administration.

    On the phone she heard the voice of a military liaison for the FAA’s Boston Center.

    “I have a hijacked aircraft,” he told her.

    American Airlines Flight 11, headed to Los Angeles, had veered off course, apparently toward New York. The liaison said to get “some F-16s or something” airborne.

    Forty-one minutes earlier, Flight 11 had left Logan Airport with 81 passengers. For the last 27 minutes, it had not responded to ground control.

    Deskins requested Flight 11’s latest position, which an operator put up on the screen.

    Flight 11 wasn’t there.

    Someone had turned off its transponder, the device that identifies the plane to ground control.

    Boston Center could still track it on primary radar, but the operators in Rome would be hard-pressed to find it amid the jumble of blips on their screens.

    We’ll direct the intercept, the liaison told Deskins. Just get something up there.

    Deskins ran up a short flight of stairs to the Battle Cab and reported the hijacked plane – real world, not a simulation.

    “He says it’s going to New York,” she said. A thought flashed: Why is he going to New York?

  185. The cash site is carefully calculated to be 7,5 hours flying time from Kuala Lumpur. all the debris is the real thing, but the black boxes will never be found, cause they are destroyed on the stop-over the palne had at an Island location. It was becoming quite some logistical nightmare to provide food and other necessities to all the passengers, and since they could not sit there in perpetuality, and the mission was aborted, and they wanted no witnesses, the passengers was let on board again for their final journey, – also to let it look right, when the corpses are found next to the vreckage.

  186. Betpaqdala Desert, Kazakhstan !

    They couldn’t tell direction.
    Therefore if (“IF”) it did not register a “ping” at 08.11 and it’s not in the sea, then it could only be in the Betpaqdala Desert area.

    Seems unlikely.

  187. The deathly precision of the attacks and the magnitude of planning would have required years of planning. Such a sophisticated operation would require the fixed frame of a state intelligence organisation, something not found in a loose group, like the one led by the student Mohammed Atta in Hamburg.

    -Eckehardt Werthebach, former president of Germany’s Verfassungsschutz intelligence service, to Christopher Bollyn, December 2001.

    Edit: Kenneth Sorensen changed the word “organization” to its proper spelling, like it is used in the civilised world, and even in Germany.

  188. I believe this German (who like most Germans knows a thing or two about organisations and how to organise) and former head of his countrys intelligence service

  189. Ben-MAD Western Carnivore and Warmonger

    21 Mar, 2014 - 2:59 pm

    James; Are you skeptical wrt to ‘remote’ hacking-command and control of MH 370?

  190. One shall never say never,- and the Israelis have a proven record of being first with the latest. I think even Sherlock Holmes would tell you that this is really smart, if you want nobody to discover what you have just done.

    They employed this technique with the poisoninhg of Arafat with Polonium in the autumn of 2004, but was furious when the Russians copyied the technicque with the poisoning of the Jewish Litvinenko in London in 2006,- beacause suddenly the whole world got to know about it. This story has wider ramifications, brought home in these very days, because ultimately the crisis that Russia experiences today, setms from anatgonistic Jews with great influence on Capitol Hill, and even in The White House itself.

  191. Ever since Putin clamped down on the Oligarchs (more than 3/4 of which are Jewish) — which was what he was elected in 2000 to do, the Jews had tried to undermine him.

    Russia under Attack

    Victoria Nuland (formerly Nudelman), the Assistant Secretary of State who is pushing the Ukrainian “revolution”, is the wife of Robert Kagan, the founder of the Project for the New American Century. Her grandfather, Meyer Nudelman, an Orthodox Jewish immigrant from Lithuania, suffered from tertiary syphilis which caused “terrifying rages” and strange behavior. ”Here was an Orthodox Jewish man, and everybody associated syphilis with a completely different kind of life,” his son, Dr. Sherwin Nuland said in an interview with the New York Times. Victoria Nuland’s mother is the British-born Rhona L. Goulston. – See more at: http://www.bollyn.com/#article_14562

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