Putin and International Law

by craig on March 2, 2014 1:22 pm in Uncategorized

By sending troops into the Ukraine, (others than those stationed there by agreement) Putin has broken international law.  That does not depend on the Budapest Memorandum.  It would be a breach of international law whether the Budapest Memorandum existed or not.  The effect of the Budapest Memorandum is rather to oblige the US and the UK to do something about it.

The existence of civil disturbance in a country does not justify outside military intervention.  That it does is, of course, the Blair doctrine that I have been campaigning against for 15 years, inside and outside government.  Putin of course opposes such interventions by the West, in Iraq, Syria or Libya, but supports such interventions when he does them, as in Georgia and Ukraine.  That is hypocrisy.  There are elements on the British left who also oppose such interventions when the West does them, but support when Putin does them.  You can see their arguments on the last comments thread: fascinatingly none of them have addressed my point about Putin’s distinct lack of interest in the principle of self-determination when it comes to Chechnya or Dagestan.

The overwhelming need now is to de-escalate the crisis.  People rushing about in tanks and helicopters very often leads to violence, and here Putin is at fault.  There was no imminent physical threat to Russians in the Crimea, and there is no need for all this military activity.  Ukraine should file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice; the UK and US, as guarantor states, can ask to be attached as guarantor states with an interest in the Budapest Memorandum .  That will fulfil their guarantor obligations without moving a soldier.

The West is not going to provide the kind of massive financial package needed to rescue the Ukraine’s moribund economy and relieve its debts.  It would be great if it did, but with western economies struggling, no western politician is in a position to announce many billions in aid to the Ukraine.  The chances of Ukraine escaping from Russian political and economic domination in the near future are non-existent – the Ukrainians are tied by debt.  That was the hard reality that scuppered the EU/Ukraine agreement.  That hard reality still exists.  The Association Agreement is a very long path to EU membership.

Both Putin and the West are reacting to events which unfolded within Ukraine.  Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich – that was a nationalist reaction to an abrupt change of political direction which seemed to be moving Ukraine decisively into the Russian orbit.  Ukrainians are not stupid and they can see the standard of living in former Soviet Bloc countries which have joined the European Union is now much higher .  Anybody who denies that is deluded.  Of course western governments had programmes to encourage pro-western tendencies in Ukraine, including secret operations. It would be naïve to expect otherwise.  Anybody who thinks Russia was not doing exactly the same is deluded.  But it is a huge mistake to lay too much weight on these efforts – both the West and Russia were taken aback by the strength and speed of the political convulsions in Ukraine, and everybody is still paying catch-up.

Which is why we now need a period of calm, and an end to dangerous military adventurism – which undeniably is coming primarily from Russia.  Political dialogue needs to be resumed.  It is interesting that even the pro-Russian assembly of Crimea region has only called a referendum on more devolved powers, not on union with Russia or independence.  However I still maintain the best way forward is agreement on internationally supervised referenda to settle the position.  The principle of self-determination should be the most important one here.  If any of the regions of Ukraine wish to secede, the goal should be a peaceful and orderly transition.  Effective military annexation by Putin, and insistence by the West that national boundaries cannot be changed, are both unproductive stances.

 

 

 

Tweet this post

248 Comments

  1. Herbie, sorry, the photo’ wasn’t on my translated article link, it was on this BBC article:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842

    The police stopped keeping the protesters out. For now, I’m assuming that the police did that because they wanted to; they stopped supporting corruption.

    The protests obviously have huge popular support; this is NOT all one-sided. On the other hand, there is what looks like a very organised paramilitary force present.

    Now I’m going back to Boiling Frogs, because I always try to look at all sides. You could have helped by pasting the paragraph you thought most relevant into your comment and giving a paragraph reference with your link, but you seem to put more of your time into having an argument here on this thread.

  2. “Fuking playground politics from agent Cameron.”

    And how else would you suggest that he shows his disapproval?

    Resident Dissident, I think the point Mark was trying to make is that Cameron has no pull in the international arena. He cannot even get Shaker Aamer released from Guantanamo Bay even though we are supposed to have a special relationship. An he has given me no answer why.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2014/01/24/free-shaker-aamer-from-gitmo-an-open-letter-to-british-pm-david-cameron/

  3. The biggest source of the problems in the Ukraine is its pro-Westers minority, headed by Tymoskenko which has never accepted the election returns for its President.

    In South Ossetia, it was that Western stooge, Saakaswili, who hoped to surprise Putin by invading the Russian ethnic areas south of the Caucusus, but the Russian President learned of it first, and beat his forces to the southern exit of the tunnel under the mountains.

  4. Habby

    Were Nuland and the ambassador picking leaders?

    Yes or No.

  5. Should be “And he has given me no answer why.”

  6. Everywhere I look, ‘news’ articles are plagued by opinion. I have to wade through reams of it to encounter a few facts, which then often turn out to be unsourced, poorly sourced, or sourced from further opinion. It’s a fucking nightmare.

  7. Clark

    You say that the protests obviously had huge popular support. Where are you getting that from?

    How are you quantifying it?

    I hope it’s not just another photograph.

    You still don’t seem to appreciate that the armed fascists were running Kiev, rather than the remaining police.

    Hasn’t it crossed your mi

  8. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 8:12 pm

    “Were Russia involving itself in the internal affairs of a country within the US or Western orbit of influence, you’d have a point, but he isn’t and you don’t.”

    So what you are really saying is that it is ok for Putin to interfere in what you consider to be Russia’s orbit of influence. I’m afraid this is just gold old fashioned imperialism – and you favoured empire is of course the good old Soviet Union.

    Just as a matter of interest do you regard Syria as being within Putin’s legitimate orbit of influence. Is Africa part of China’s legitimate orbit of influence? Are the Ukrainians allowed to have their own orbit of influence?

    I’m afraid you’ve just hung yourself on your own petard.

  9. Res Diss

    Not at all. You’re obviously quite happy that the West interferes in other countries and have supported such intervention in the past, but you’re not happy that Russia protects its interests on its border.

    You just don’t appreciate that this could be for Russia what Cuba was for the US.

    That’s your hypocrisy.

    I think Kennedy was right about the Cuban missile crisis but the US was not right about subsequent plots against Cuba and Castro.

  10. RD – “And how else would you suggest that he shows his disapproval?”

    By communicating face to face and giving ‘piece of mind’ advice not disdain.

    Disabled British athletes competing in Sochi doubtless feel left in the cold – paltry, pitiful and pathetic Mr Cameron. Classic empty suit.

  11. Herbie, watch the Babylon 13 videos on YouTube. Support is widespread. People are bringing food and other support to those paramilitary forces. Ordinary people were collecting and breaking up cobblestones. People are singing!

    We’ve also had personal reports here on this blog. See Phil’s comments here:

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/02/why-should-ukraine-not-split/comment-page-2/#comment-443075

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/02/why-should-ukraine-not-split/comment-page-2/#comment-443135

    Yes, I believe that US-based interests have been running a propaganda campaign in Ukraine. But those campaigns were targeted at feelings that really did exist among the people. It’s mentioned in the boiling Frogs article; loads of Ukrainians wanted Ukraine to join the EU. When it didn’t happen, violence broke out or was ordered or both.

    There are probably no right-wrong answers in this. It’s going to be a case of making the best of a bad job. And yes, yet again, it looks like US interests have strengthened and encouraged violent forces, and that this will have repercussions long after the US interests have achieved their objectives.

    Usual mess.

  12. Sunday, March 02, 2014
    ‘NATO TROOPS SHOT BOTH SIDES IN UKRAINE’ – REPORT http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/nato-troops-shot-both-sides-in-ukraine.html

  13. Resident Dissident, no it’s not OK for Russia to interfere in Ukraine, but can you really imagine them not doing so with all this going on?

    It should never have come to this. And that’s a failing shared between many governments, created over a long time.

    Seriously, if we as humans can’t manage something purely human like this, what possible hope do we have against climate change? We all of us really need to raise our game, and fast. If we can’t even stop squabbling here on this nice little blog, how can we point the finger at anyone else?

  14. I don’t quite agree with ‘Resident Dissident’ above, since Mr. Murray’s stance on so-called ‘liberal interventionism’ seems consistent and he grounds his arguments in International Law. The problem is, though, that Blair and Clinton and comrades let that cat out of the bag nearly twenty years ago. I remember Putin saying in relation to Serbia/Kosovo that the West’s stance in that matter would “come back to haunt them”. I guess he was right.

    Where I disagree with Mr. Murray is in what he doesn’t say rather than what he says.

    Firstly, with regard to Russian actions in the Caucasus, my understanding is that Russia believes in the Nation-state and its sovereignty and independence. They also put some store in International Law. Their words and their actions would at least seem to have the virtue of consistency – unlike the West, who always expect to be able to have it both ways. Whether we like it or not, Dagestan and Chechnya are part of Russia – just as New Mexico, Arizona and California are part of the U.S.A. (ask the Mexicans!).

    Secondly, Russia’s actions, however illegal are re-active, not pro-active. They have been sorely provoked – not just over the past decade in Ukraine, but for more than twenty years since the U.S.S.R. went belly up. It really isn’t a good idea to rub people’s noses in it and take the opportunity to give ’em a jolly good kicking when they’re down. One day they’ll get up. That doesn’t justify what they’ve done, but it makes it understandable. They’ve been pushed and pushed, insulted and ridiculed. What do people expect? And why the double standard. We maintain fairly good relations with China and some fairly dubious people in Central Asia who are at least as bad a Putin. We ought to be on much better terms with Russia and it is entirely our fault that we are not.

  15. Agent CameraOn will be on a four way phone call tonight to Kerry in the US, Lithuania and Poland (Tusk). Hope he’s using the Friends and Families rate.

  16. Black jelly

    2 Mar, 2014 - 8:46 pm

    The UN needs to be relocated from the city of 911 urgently it has lost its authority. We have the murderous “Fuck EU” crowd organising coups and cannibals against democratically elected governments with redneck gungho “we came we saw and he died” high ranking US operatives distributing matzo balls to trained CIA operatives & seditionists on the ground in public squares,openly in broad daylight. And now we have had the Russian retort to the complete diss of the UN by the Beast mentioned in the Bible aka the Great Satan.

    Its all downhill from now on unless the UN Headquarters are relocated, Craig Murray is a bit naive if he thinks the US/NATO can REPEATEDLY diss the UN Charter whilst expecting the rest to meekly lie back and think of England ! The Russians have enough power to raze USrael to the ground in FOUR HOURS. When bibi satanyahu was getting a bit uppity with Jericho they fired the nuclear-capable missile RS-12M Topol from South Russia to its test destination near Khazakstan – an exact distance to Tel Aviv in case no one noticed.

  17. Could I someone to do some research from here please:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tsariov

    The aangirfan article is partly based on the testimony of “Ukrainian lawmaker” Oleg Tsarev, “a Dnipropetrovsk businessman and People’s Deputy of Ukraine for the Party of Regions” (Wikipedia). But on the History page, things like this keep being added and removed:

    “Hand of the Kremlin” in the Supreme Council of Ukraine. A Traitor To Ukraine.

  18. Clark

    The Ukraine is a deeply divided, cobbled together entity and it’s my view that those who would set alight those divisions are to blame for what has now transpired and they did it in full knowledge of what the result would be.

    There’ll always be genuine people who just want a better life, but this wasn’t the way to go about it, and ultimately they’re just being used anyway.

    Were the West really interested in the wellbeing of the Ukraine they could have got together with the Russians, but no, they used these ethnic and other divisions to undermine the Russians thereby creating this mess.

    If there’s anyone to blame for the fracture it lies in the West rather than Russia.

  19. Thanks Mark, Cameron is about as wet as a kipper sliding down a rock on this issue, wet and slimy.

    How can you not support the paralympics team when all of this is happening?

    I’m off to bed, need to be ready for tommorrows practical archeology lessons. I’m helping with recording the ruins of the Gorleston Priory, a medieval priory that produced some of the finest manuscripts of the 14th. century.

    the Gorleston Psalter is now in the british museum
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorleston_Psalter

    there are also websites which show some of the expertly painted scenes, but my bandwidth here is hairsplitting and sites take ages to load.

    Спокойной ночи и спать спокойно

  20. Habba @4.37 PM.

    I’m afraid I can’t give you a ‘clearer picture’ of the composition of Ukraine’s sovereign debt other than that provided in the link I gave earlier.

    I posted that link as you queried what Craig meant by stating ‘The chances of Ukraine escaping from Russian political and economic domination in the near future are non-existent – the Ukrainians are tied by debt’.

    Mr Ward explains that a) a disproportionate amount of their sovereign debt is in very short term bonds and that b)Russia is no longer willing to buy these bonds.

    Further elucidation from me on the relevance of these points won’t be forthcoming. For more information on the economic fallout from the current crisis please contact-

    Mr G Soros
    C/O International Crisis Group
    Brussels
    Belgium

    If you are seeking to profit from the current situation, he has peerless expertise in this area.

  21. Sajid Javid and Nick Boles (Tories) are accusing Miliband of assisting the Ukraine crisis.

    Ed Miliband rejects Tory attempts to link Syria vote to Ukraine crisis
    Labour leader says it is nonsense to suggest parliament’s vote against air strikes in Syria helped embolden Vladimir Putin
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/ed-miliband-tories-syria-vote-ukraine

    Javid, a British Pakistani, is a Con Friend of Israel. He visited Israel in 2012 and 2013. One of the trips was funded by the American Enterprise Institute whom he has also visited in Washington.
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=24854 His register of interests.

    American Enterprise Institute. Kagan, Wolfowitz, Bolton and other many other neocons.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Enterprise_Institute

    Nick Boles is a member of the Cambridge-based think tank the Henry Jackson Society, which advocates a pro-active approach to the spread of democracy in the world. In 2012 Boles was listed as being a participant in that year’s Bilderberg meeting.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Boles

    Both are said to be friends of Osborne, also a Bilderberger, incidentally.

    Some fits surely.

    Qs
    Who wants Syria defeated? Israel
    Who has protected Syria? Putin
    Who interfered in Ukraine? The US.

  22. Interesting Mary – Thankyou and the aangirfan link – you really are flat out -bravo!

  23. A plethora of revolutions as the author says.

    Weekend Edition Feb 28-Mar 02, 2014

    Global War on the 99%
    How International Financial Elites Change Governments to Implement Austerity

    by ISMAEL HOSSEIN-ZADEH

    Many countries around the world are plagued by all kinds of armed rebellions, economic sanctions, civil wars, “democratic” coup d’états and/or wars of “regime change.” These include Ukraine, Venezuela, Syria, Thailand, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Somalia and Lebanon. Even in the core capitalist countries the overwhelming majority of citizens are subjected to brutal wars of economic austerity.

    While not new, social convulsions seem to have become more numerous in recent years. They have become especially more frequent since the mysterious 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center in 2001 and the 2008 financial collapse in the United States, which soon led to similar financial implosions and economic crises in Europe and beyond.

    Despite their many differences, these social turbulences share two common features. The first is that they are largely induced, nurtured and orchestrated from outside, that is, by the Unites States and its allies—of course, in collaboration with their class allies from inside. And the second is that, contrary to the long-established historical pattern of social revolutions, where the desperate and disenfranchised masses rebelled against the ruing elites, in most of the recent struggles it is the elites that have instigated insurgencies and civil wars against the masses. The two features are, of course, integrally intertwined: essentially reflecting the shared interests and collaborative schemes of the international plutocracies against the global 99%.

    /..
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/28/how-international-financial-elites-change-governments-to-implement-austerity/

  24. Herbie,

    I think the ousting of Yanukovich was of doubtful legality. However if it were completely illegal, it still does not make it legal for another country to invade. If mass demonstrations against the benefit cuts forced Cameron from office, it would not entitle anyone to invade to put him back, no matter how much violence had accompanied the demonstrations. It is a question of internal government.

    I have seen no evidence at all that Western security services were effective in ousting Yanukovitch and I do not believe they were at all a significant factor. They really are not that good. I did see a lot of evidence of a great many very angry Ukrainians.

    Equally I am not at the moment convinced that neo-Nazis hold positions in the current Ukrainian government in Kiev. It is not impossible, but I should like to see some evidence. What is the neo-Nazi affiliation of the current acting President or any of his ministers, and where precisely is the evidence of it?

  25. The aangirfan article that Mary linked to has the headline

    “‘NATO TROOPS SHOT BOTH SIDES IN UKRAINE’ – REPORT”

    but the links in the article don’t actually support that. Here’s a Google Translation for the first:

    http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A1%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D0%25B9%25D0%25BF%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D1%258B%2B%2522%25D0%259E%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B8%2522%2B%25D0%25B3%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D1%258F%25D1%2582,%2B%25D1%2587%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%2B%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5%2B%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BB%25D1%258F%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%2B%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%2B%25D0%259C%25D0%25B0%25D0%25B9%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5%2B%25D0%25B8%2B%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B0%25D1%258F%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BB%25D1%258F%25D1%258E%25D1%2582%2B%25D0%25BE%2B%2522%25D1%2582%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D1%2582%25D1%258C%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B9%2B%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5%2522%26safe%3Doff&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=ru&u=http://rus.newsru.ua/ukraine/21feb2014/tretia_sila.html

    Former head of intelligence: a third force, which provokes both sides
    Publication time: 21 February 2014 09:49
    last update: February 21, 2014, 11:01

    Acts on Maidan third force, which provokes both parties, their representatives and shoot at protesters. This opinion was expressed by former Head of Intelligence Skipalsky Alexander in an interview to “Kommersant-Ukraine” .

    “MIA actually pretends not to notice how under his nose are criminal groups agreed with certain authorities. Therefore, most law enforcement officers who work on the Maidan, disoriented and not fully understand what is happening. And” maydanovtsy “too, apparently, do not understand that a third force operating here, which provokes both sides.’s this third force, and there are terrorists in the full sense of the word. Because they work in order to intimidate the population,” – he said.

    He said that under the “third force” refers to the mercenaries.

    “It bandits who shoot for the money people. SBU and MIA should detain them, but they, unfortunately, do not … I think it’s mercenaries,” – said the former head of General Intelligence.

  26. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:28 pm

    ‘Erbie

    “Habby

    Were Nuland and the ambassador picking leaders?

    Yes or No.”
    _______________________

    It’s a little like me claiming that Resident Dissident and I have picked you as Useful Idiot of the week. But, you know, we could pick you as much as we like and that still wouldn’t make you this week’s Useful Idiot; you have to get to the top all by yourself and on your own merits – as you have indeed done.

  27. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:34 pm

    Mary

    “Agent CameraOn will be on a four way phone call tonight to Kerry in the US, Lithuania and Poland (Tusk). Hope he’s using the Friends and Families rate.”
    ____________________-

    I shouldn’t think so, Mary. The taxpayer foots the bill for the PM’s calls – and I’m pleased to say that includes you. Enjoy the thought! :)

  28. I don’t have a dog in this fight, but it might be easier to understand Russia’s actions if we consider Sevastopol to be Russia’s Gibraltar. Let your imagination do the rest.

    There is no doubt that Western meddling provoked the overthrow of Yanukovich leading to the installation of far right and neo-fascists in the Ukrainain government and they cannot really complain at Russia’s reaction. After all, Russia spent 20 million lives the last time the fascists got their nose under the tent, I don’t think they want them on the doorstep again.

    The West has been thumbing its nose at international law for so long that they really have surrendered all moral high ground from which to lecture anybody else. When you sow the wind…

  29. Black jelly

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:40 pm

    CM – “I have seen no evidence at all that Western security services were effective in ousting Yanukovitch and I do not believe they were at all a significant factor.”

    Are you kidding us ! Victoria Nuland,Assistant US Secretary of State, no less, distributing cookies to the crowd at Maidan. The POTUS warning the Yanukovitch Government “there will be consequence” (if the Maidanistas come to harm). The Nuland “F U ” conversation with the Ambassador was simply based on wishful thinking then, that there was no planning/operations that had led up to it?!! Common CM, even the toothpaste bombing Sochi scare was part of the operation. There is a division at the Pentagon that orchestrates these events in great detail – it has a lot of experience and a standard template, if I may add !! A similar operation is currently in progress against Maduro in Venezuela

  30. “Yats’ and Klitschko are members of Svoboda. Yats is pushing for austerity and as we know, that doesn’t work unless you are a tin-pot dictator.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

    “The All-Ukrainian Union “Svoboda” (Ukrainian: Всеукраїнське об’єднання «Свобода», Vseukrayinske obyednannia “Svoboda”), translated as Freedom, is a Ukrainian nationalist political party,[2] and currently one of the five major parties of the country.[9] Five members of the party hold positions in Ukraine’s government.
    The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія України), a reference to National Socialism.[10][11] Today Svoboda acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum”

  31. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:44 pm

    Nevermind

    “Thanks Mark, Cameron is about as wet as a kipper sliding down a rock on this issue, wet and slimy.”
    __________________

    You’re a bit of a landlubber, aren’t you – or perhaps you don’t eat fish.

    For your information, kippers are a product derived from fish; you’d therefore be unlikely to see one “sliding down a rock” – unless of course you were standing on said rock, gazing out to sea, and your Waitrose plastic bag unexpectedly split. Is that what happened?

    Following on from the above, may I also point out that fresh fish are much slimier than kippers, which although quite oily are actually not slimy at all.

  32. What proportion of people in the Ukraine in the 1980s saw themselves as speaking Russian as their main language of choice, with or without a southern or Ukrainian accent?

    I’ve seen various figures. And of course since 1991 there has been a massive effort to bombard people with yellow-and-blue Ukrainian nationalism in the school system and the media. (See also Croatia and Serbia, where contrary to what liars and idiots may say, ‘Croatian’, ‘Serbian’ and ‘Bosnian’ are not three different languages.)

    But I wondered whether someone here might have some kind of figure based on personal knowledge, rather than something they’ve found on the internet in the past few days.

    Was it more than 50%?

  33. “I don’t quite agree with ‘Resident Dissident’ above, since Mr. Murray’s stance on so-called ‘liberal interventionism’ seems consistent and he grounds his arguments in International Law.”

    Russia never ratified the Rome Statute. They also have UNSC power of veto.

  34. See Jonathan Steele’s article in The Guardian for a bit of sanity on NATO’s and Washington’s madness on the Ukraine.

  35. Black Jelly

    I have taken part myself in a great many diplomatic exchanges about what we wanted to happen at the time in various countries. It doesn’t magically translate into their happening.

    How on earth you think that Nuland warning Yanukovich against shooting demonstrators – entirely sensible – or handing out cookies (daft), or pontificating on who she wanted to be in power (incidentally the person she wanted is not in power)- translated into bringing down the government, I know not. If diplomacy was that easy, I wouldn’t have given it up.

    That the West wanted Yanukovic to go, there is no doubt. That they caused him to go is simply untrue. You have provided evidence of the former, and none of the latter.

  36. doug scorgie

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:55 pm

    Nevermind
    2 Mar, 2014 – 4:01 pm

    “can someone please tell us what Sasha Billy was saying to the public prosecutor? or do I have to ask a more discerning crowd somewhere else?”
    “somebody should get the guist of what he was on about throttling the young chap up by his tie.”

    I haven’t found a transcript of the video yet Nevermind but Uzbek in the UK thinks it was a “well-staged play” (ie Russian propaganda) so no good asking him for a translation

  37. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 9:57 pm

    Old Mark

    “I’m afraid I can’t give you a ‘clearer picture’ of the composition of Ukraine’s sovereign debt other than that provided in the link I gave earlier.”
    _________________________

    Oh, I’m surprised and sorry to hear that, I was curious to know the composition of the other 75% of Ukraine’s debt and who owns it. But never mind, I’m sure the IMF will provide the info in its forthcoming report and we’ll be reading about it in the financial press shortly.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Mr Ward explains that a) a disproportionate amount of their sovereign debt is in very short term bonds and that b)Russia is no longer willing to buy these bonds.”
    _________________

    That appears to imply that Russia mostly owns the 25% pf Ukrainian debt which is in short-term bonds, doesn’t it. If correct, that’s very interesting and would make it appear that Russia is the bad boy.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Further elucidation from me on the relevance of these points won’t be forthcoming.”
    ______________________

    I quite understand, but since I was asking about the composition and ownership of the remaining 75% of Ukraine’s debt and not about the “relevance of these points” it doesn’t really matter, does it.

  38. What do Kerry and Hague think their visits to Kiev will achieve?

    http://news.sky.com/story/1219658/ukraines-new-navy-chief-defects-to-crimea

    Perhaps they will defect? :)

    Pantsdown thinks we are very near the edge. Just one step and it could all go pear shaped. What ridiculous politicians we have been landed with.

  39. doug scorgie

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:08 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    2 Mar, 2014 – 4:06 pm

    To Herbie:
    “You’ve got it the wrong way round : when YOU make a claim (or insinuation), it is for YOU to back it up – with facts.”

    Habbabkuk, when YOU make a claim it would be helpful if YOU backed-up that with FACTS properly referenced.

    (It’s a great life, if you don’t weaken)

  40. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:09 pm

    “Yats’ and Klitschko are members of Svoboda.

    Yats is a meber of Fatherland and Klitschko is the leader of UDAR neither are members of Svoboda.

  41. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:19 pm

    Richard

    I didn’t imply that Craig was inconsistent in his stance against liberal interventionism – he isn’t. I just wanted to make that such a stance was not consistent with that of John Stuart Mill who Craig has often eulogized in the past. I should also add that there are grounds in which liberal interventionism is permitted under international law – if you search around you will see that this is an area of extensive legal debate.

    Fred

    Russia does however subscribe to the European and United Nations Conventions on Human Rights.

  42. @CM – Ok I hear you, but as the situation escalates Boris is going to reveal some even more juicy and “interesting” intercepts (remember its his home ground),the Nuland telecon with the Ambassador was only a starter, to bolster their case. Stand by, the Russians have known the US intrigue all along, and seen it as an opportunity to take back Crimea. Interesting times ahead, a weak Obama beholden to the US deep state,is stuck in Fukuyama “End of History” mode, Russia (and China) are about to show their muscle to a bankrupt Great Satan.

  43. Resident Dissident

    2 Mar, 2014 - 10:25 pm

    Interesting but perhaps little known fact Lebedev the owner of the Telegraph and Evening Standard owned a bank in Russia called the National Reserve Bank that made a lot of money buying up old Ukrainian debt to Russia on the cheap which shortly thereafter was repaid at a much higher amount.

  44. So, Mr. Murray (and excuse my directness)it is unheard of that a Western power’s secret services or armed forces in close cooperation with various organizations, have been involved in secret and illegal attempts to bring down governments around the world?
    And, it is unheard of, that for the purpose of bringing down the targeted government have used any means possible, including agents and bought politicians.
    Or, that they have used unfounded propaganda, “false flag” and “black operations” as in the popular jargon are called?
    Or you categorically exclude such possibilities in the present situation in Ukraine?

    That the West wanted Yanukovic to go, there is no doubt.That they caused him to go is simply untrue.

    How you, an experienced diplomat, can be so sure, when all the signs are there?
    And what kind of evidence would be sufficient for you to change your mind?
    A written confession? videos?

  45. ” what kind of evidence would be sufficient for you to change your mind? ”

    To start with any kind of evidence would be good; and just because you think they may have done it in the past doesn’t represent evidence that it may have happened on this occasion.

  46. Why is it, Murray, that you don’t advocate restoration of the elected government of Ukraine and the agreement between that government and the opposition calling for early elections and a unity government?

    But I suppose the answer is self-evident: since to take such a position would militate against the success of America’s multi-billion-dollar subversion of Ukraine. In fact, it would correspond exactly with Russia’s position, and the defeat of Russia is the real objective, Russia being a sovereign nation state to be demolished slice by slice as the New World Order and its decadent civilization drives East.

    Funny thing is, while the US managed to infiltrate Ukraine’s far-right-wing extremist faction comprising a mob of stick-wielding thugs with Nazi insignia, Russia apparently infiltrate the Ukrainian military, which seems to have been a better bet, and almost certainly a lot cheaper.

    So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.

  47. “That the West wanted Yanukovic to go, there is no doubt. That they caused him to go is simply untrue. You have provided evidence of the former, and none of the latter.”

    Can’t argue. They wanted him to go because that gives an opportunity to change the government to a government more favourable.

    But the reporting here has all the bias of our government-owned media. It concentrates on rioting in the Ukraine where there was a pro-Russian government against which there was severe public dissent. It gave very little attention to the protests in Bosnia Herzegovina where the police have been accused of violence against demonstrators, and the presidential palace has been burned.

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/21/bosnia-and-herzegovina-investigate-police-violence-against-protesters

    Even today BBC midlands news, which made no mention of yesterday’s protest in support of Moazzam Begg, covered the story of the most decorated soldier, Henry Tandy, who it was claimed spared Hitler’s life. In its tiresome coverage of WWI stories (which is apparently going to go on until 2017 – I’m already sick of it because I believe it is Cameron’s ploy to glorify the great British empire and not simply a presentation of history) an historian has discovered that Tandy’s claim could not have been right. The story finished by pointing out what should be remembered is that Henry Tandy was the most-decorated soldier: not that the first victim of war is the truth.

  48. “Russia does however subscribe to the European and United Nations Conventions on Human Rights.”

    I don’t see how that would be relevant.

    Anyhow the ICC is only there to prosecute little countries in Africa. Prosecuting world powers is not in their remit. It’s never happened yet and it’s never going to.

  49. boiling frogs refers to this as a CFR video. that may be so. it certainly got a lot of assistance from MSM:

    BBC News – #BBCtrending: ‘I am a Ukrainian’ protest video goes viral

    28 Feb: Time Mag: Senator John McCain: “We Are All Ukrainians”
    http://swampland.time.com/2014/02/28/ukraine-john-mccain-putin-crimea/

    10 Feb: Le Monde: Bernard-Henri Levy : Nous sommes tous des Ukrainiens
    http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2014/02/10/nous-sommes-tous-des-ukrainiens_4363410_3232.html

    2011 Guardian: Kim Willsher: Libya: Bernard-Henri Levy dismisses criticism for leading France to conflict
    Philosopher says criticism of dealings with Sarkozy of no importance compared with ‘avoiding a bloodbath in Benghazi’
    Unruffled as ever in his trademark Charvet white shirt, half-unbuttoned to reveal his tanned chest, the 62-year-old French philosopher is used to being in the line of fire – some of it, from Bosnia in the 1990s and Burundi in 2000, all too real and dangerous.
    But last week the censure was political: the self-appointed intellectual-at-large was under attack for reportedly persuading France’s president, Nicolas Sarkozy, to meet and recognise the rebels in Libya…
    All of which leaves this handsome dandy of a man almost totally indifferent. “Honestly, I don’t give a damn,” he says, as he drinks Ceylon tea in his favourite Left Bank haunt.

    *******“What has happened is so much more important than this derisory criticism. What is important in this affair is that the devoir d’ingérance [the right to violate the sovereignty of a country if human rights are being excessively violated] has been recognised. For the first time this concept was endorsed by the Arab League, by the African Union and by the UN security council. This is huge.”…
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/27/libya-bernard-henri-levy-france

  50. as for the toothpaste bomb alert – MSM showed no interest whatsoever in following up one it was established the individual was (surprise, surprise) a Ukrainian. not even sure this guy will go to trial. however, WSJ seems to have been designated to create the “official” and final narrative, no matter how utterly ludicrous. they put it on a blog & didn’t allow commentss of course:

    11 Feb – Wall St Journal BLOG: James Marson: Politics Behind Plane Hijacking, Ukrainian Opposition Says
    But the alleged wannabe hijacker had something else in mind, according to an acquaintance who saw him hours earlier: freeing Ukraine’s president from the clutches of Russia’s Vladimir Putin…
    But Ivan Varchenko, an opposition politician, said the alleged hijacker—named by Turkish security officials as Artem Kozlov, a Ukrainian in his forties from Kharkiv—had told him Friday that he wanted to fly to Sochi to “free Mr. Yanukovych.”
    “He said he had to save Yanukovych because Putin had taken him hostage and would use him to blackmail Ukraine,” said Mr. Varchenko, a deputy in Kharkiv’s regional council, in a telephone interview. “So he had to save Yanukovych to save Ukraine.”…
    Mr. Varchenko said Mr. Kozlov worked as a volunteer on the politician’s website for one day a week for the past 18 months. He said Mr. Kozlov had appeared sympathetic to the protesters’ cause, but on Friday wore a pro-Yanukovych ribbon from the 2010 presidential election campaign. That’s when he revealed his plan to rescue Mr. Yanukovych, Mr. Varchenko said…
    http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2014/02/11/politics-behind-plane-hijacking-ukrainian-opposition-says/

    Marson & WSJ conveniently left out any reference to Varchenko’a political party!

    Dec 29 – Kiev Post: Car of Kharkiv EuroMaidan organizer burnt, fifth incident there in month
    The scorched Toyota that belongs to Kharkiv Oblast lawmaker and local EuroMaidan co-organizer Ivan Varchenko.
    https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/car-of-kharkiv-euromaidan-organizer-burnt-fifth-incident-there-in-month-334404.html

  51. “So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.”

    That’s the good news. The bad news is a splintering off, or division of territory occurring based on defections will still lead to civil war. Not that independent minded Ukrainians would object. Moscow wants the whole flounder (Dover sole) or none at all. JMO

  52. @Z – Anybody who has partaken of black jelly knows its sweetness can turn you into its slave. But do not underestimate the pink jelly of the former Soviet satellite states either, it can also turn anybody into a Russophobe !! Its very clear who the devils are, we have just seen an atrocious Ghouta false flag gassing involving using 400 dead children as props to start war. And we are being told that they are the good guys, that the person who stopped the devils in their tracks,Putin, is actually the bad guy, sheesh !! But its a sign of the proximity of the Last Day, the truth will be turned upside down, dershowitz/Jidge hellerstein logic now rule.

  53. Fred,

    I was suggesting the ICJ, not the ICC. Black Jelly, you still don’t get the point that Putin is against western intervention in other countries, but in favour of his own. And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.

  54. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:25 pm

    “But the reporting here has all the bias of our government-owned media. It concentrates on rioting in the Ukraine where there was a pro-Russian government against which there was severe public dissent. It gave very little attention to the protests in Bosnia Herzegovina where the police have been accused of violence against demonstrators, and the presidential palace has been burned.”
    _____________________

    Illogical and irrelevant.

    Bias in the sense that the media are writing a lot about Ukraine and little about BiH does not prove that the media are telling untruths about what happened/is happening in Ukraine.

    Furthermore : have you considered the possibility that ‘bias’ in the sense outlined above might be due to the fact that what is going on in Ukraine is a damn sight more important (and potentially dangerous)to the West than what is going on in BiH?

  55. “authorities in Kiev” – online news results for last 24 hours shows thousands of instances.

    “constitutional” – a handful of results – in the Russian press:

    2 Mar – ITAR-Tass: Russian diplomat: Ukraine situation should be brought back in constitutional framework
    “It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity,” Churkin said
    The situation in Ukraine should be brought back on political track and in constitutional framework, Russian Permanent Representative in the United Nations Organisation Vitaly Churkin said at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday…
    He shared United Nations Deputy Secretary-General Jan Eliasson’s appeal to assess the situation in Ukraine keeping the head cool.
    “As (U.N. Deputy Secretary-General) Jan Eliasson said correctly it is needed to keep the head cool. It is needed to bring the situation back on political track and in constitutional framework. It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity,” Churkin said…
    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/721629

    2 Mar – Pravda: Ukraine: The Law, the Putsch and the Imposter
    by Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey
    The irresponsibility of the western media calling Oleksandr Turchynov “Interim President” and referring to the “new Government” of Ukraine walks hand in hand with the notion that Governments can be deposed and instated by groups of armed thugs on the streets. Turchynov claims power, but what about the massive voting fraud in the Rada?
    Under the law, under the Constitution of Ukraine, Oleksandr Turchynov is not the Interim President, he is an imposter, the leader of a Putsch who has as much right to declare himself or to be declared Interim President as the author of this article, or anyone else for that matter. Why doesn’t Turchynov, the subject of a criminal investigation in the past, not declare himself Queen of Sheeba?…
    Under the Agreement signed between President Yanukovich and the members of the Opposition in February 2014, the forthcoming election was to be brought forward from 2015 to late 2014, so until then, the President of Ukraine is Viktor Yanukovich. Under the existing Constitution, in the absence of a Presidential exercise of duties, it is the Prime Minister who takes office as Interim President and the Presidency is ratified by the Constitutional Court.
    Mykola Azarov resigned the Premiership on January 28 2014, and was replaced as Prime Minister by Sergiy Arbuzov. In replacing the legitimate Prime Minister with Arseniy Yatsenyuk and in terminating the powers of the Constitutional Court judges, using a proxy voting system which has been outlawed during President Yanukovich’s Presidency, and in the absence of many of the Party of Regions deputies in the Rada, the action of proclaiming Turchynov as Interim President and of replacing Government Ministers has no legal basis whatsoever and is therefore void under Ukrainian law and as per the Ukrainian Constitution….
    And let us analyse the constitution of the Rada…
    And look at the picture showing members of the Rada holding the voting cards of other members. This explains the “vote”. Multiple voting for absentee members. Ladies and gentlemen, the photograph on the left denounces massive electoral fraud…
    Oleksandr Turchynov is not, legally, the Interim President of the Ukraine and his Government is not a Government – it is a clique of imposters. Any foreign powers greeting and recognizing them is guilty of criminal association. This is the law.
    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/02-03-2014/126976-ukraine_putsch-0/

  56. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:28 pm

    CanSpecy

    “So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.”
    ________________________

    In which case you should be pleased. But somehow you don’t sound it.

  57. Oddie

    Yes and no doubt James II is still King of England. The point is, it’s a Ukrainian affair. Whether the events were legal or not (and revolutions are by definition illegal) it does not anyone the right to invade the country.

    Fred,

    Yes, there is a lot written in favour of liberal intervention, by neo-cons like Yoo and Blairite acolytes like Cooper. But that neo-cons claim their “might is right” policy is legal, does not make it so. There is no solid body of case law than negates the principle of non-interference.

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:36 pm

    “And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”
    __________________

    And they never will. This is because they believe that the rebels in that part of the world are the paid agents of evil Western war-mongers and Russophobes. Therefore, they support their pin-up boy President rasPutin.

    I wonder if there is another country in the world where a former secret policeman (and no mean foot soldier at that)could become Head of State?

  59. Craig

    Larry Summers called the financial game that the US is playing with creditors, a financial balance of terror.

    There’s something similar going on with international law. The west uses and abuses it as it sees fit and there surely must be some provision in that context for countries like Russia to protect themselves.

    The west certainly orchestrated, encouraged and financed the protests and in the end Nuland got her man the job.

    I don’t think the fascists will necessarily take power but they were used to a purpose and will certainly have their pound of flesh.

    It’s far from being a people’s revolution even in terms of western Ukraine and most definitely not in terms of Ukraine as a whole.

  60. 2 Mar – Russia Today: Will be a war crime to use force against Ukraine civilians, Russia warns self-proclaimed president
    Russia, too, has voiced doubts over the legitimacy of the self-proclaimed government, citing the procedural violations the Ukrainian parliament committed in ousting Yanukovich, appointing a new cabinet and taking control of the country’s judiciary. Moscow is also concerned over reports that some MPs were forced to change their votes under threat of physical violence.
    Moscow on Saturday referred the issue to the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, an advisory body with expertise in constitutional law. A similar request to monitor the legitimacy of the actions in Kiev was addressed to the Interparliamentary Assembly of the Commonwealth of Independent States, which brings together MPs from most former republics of the Soviet Union.
    http://rt.com/news/war-crime-ukraine-troops-425/

    3 months prior to Gaddafi’s assassination:

    July 2011 – AP: US recognizes Libyan rebels as Libyan government
    U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the Obama administration has decided to formally recognize Libya’s main opposition group as the country’s legitimate government. The move gives foes of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi a major financial and credibility boost…
    http://news.yahoo.com/us-recognizes-libyan-rebels-libyan-government-124658625.html

  61. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:42 pm

    Actually, I could answer my own question : NKVD agent President Boleslaw Bierut of Poland. In the good old days of the Little Father, strangely enough.

  62. “can someone please tell us what Sasha Billy was saying to the public prosecutor?”

    He was telling off the bureaucrat for being a lazy pen pusher who wasn’t properly investigating some case or other and that he would throw him to the crowd because he had an expensive looking watch as well.

  63. “I was suggesting the ICJ, not the ICC.”

    The ICJ only has jurisdiction if both parties agree to abide by their ruling. Their only means of enforcement is the UNSC where Russia has power of veto.

  64. @CM – Putin has just been awakened by his sisters rape just outside his doorstep, the perpetrators emboldened by some choice cookies distributed by a Victoria Nuland. And what you are saying is he should close the door and go back to sleep, its a United Nations affair.

  65. Habby

    If Nuland’s man got the job she wanted for him it does seem as though she had a hand in it.

  66. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:50 pm

    Speaking of President Boleslaw Bierut of Poland, he reportedly died in Russia, of heart failure, shortly after Krushchev’s secret speech denouncing Stalinism. The smart money was on grief that the speech had been made rather than grief at Stalin’s crimes.

    On a much baser level, I do hope none of the rasPutinistas here will go under in similar fashion once rasPtuin’s crimes will have been brought fully into the open.

  67. Non-fintererence

    2 Mar, 2014 - 11:55 pm

    Interesting divergence in perspective between ex UK diplomat here and ex US spook,

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/

  68. ‘That appears to imply that Russia mostly owns the 25% pf Ukrainian debt which is in short-term bonds, doesn’t it. If correct, that’s very interesting and would make it appear that Russia is the bad boy.’

    Not really Habba; it suggests that Putin was keen to shore up the Yanukovich government, but not its successor. Sovereign debt is often acquired, or not acquired, by other sovereigns for reasons of realpolitik rather than ‘good business’- Osborne’s loan to Ireland a couple of years back is a good case in point.

    If the Irish government at the time had been strongly Anglophobic with, say, Sinn Fein holding several Cabinet posts, I doubt if Our Gideon would have been quite so ready to write a blank check for our next door neighbours.

  69. BrianFujisan

    3 Mar, 2014 - 12:08 am

    Black Jelly….

    Re the Chemical Attacks of East Ghouta,

    “From the moment when some families of abducted children contacted us to inform us that they recognized the children among those who are presented in the videos as victims of the Chemical Attacks of East Ghouta, we decided to examine the videos thoroughly. …

    Our first concern was the fate of the children we see in the footages. Those angels are always alone in the hands of adult males that seem to be elements of armed gangs. The children that trespassed remain without their families and unidentified all the way until they are wrapped in the white shrouds of the burial. Moreover our study highlights without any doubt that their little bodies were manipulated and disposed with theatrical arrangements to figure in the screening.

    If the studied footages were edited and published to exhibit pieces of evidence to accuse the Syrian State of perpetrating the chemical attacks on East Ghouta, our discoveries incriminate the editors and actors of forged facts through a lethal manipulation of unidentified children. …

    Thus we want to raise awareness toward the humanitarian case of this criminal use of children in the political propaganda of the East Ghouta Chemical Weapons Attack

    We present this work to distinguished Spiritual Leaders, Heads of State, Members of Parliament Humanitarian actors and to any person who has heart for truth and justice and seeks to due accountability for evil deeds.“

    Mother Agnes Mariam de La Croix,

    Mother Agnes has organised an international delegation led by Nobel Peace Laureate Mairead Maguire to come to Syria to see for themselves. She is one of the main organizers of Mussalaha (“Reconciliation”), a popular movement in Syria that mediates disputes and organizes ceasefires between opposing forces.

    and to think that a couple of wee dickheads – Owen Jones and Jeremy Scahill Opposed Mother Agnes speaking at a Stop the War conference.

    I think there is Some Good reasoning in this piece by Finian Cunningham

    US State Department official Victoria Nuland recently disclosed that Washington has “invested” some $5 billion in “promoting democracy” (that is, subversion and sedition) in Ukraine over the past two decades.
    The crisis came to a head when the embattled elected Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych fled suddenly from his office last week and went into exile in Russia. The Ukrainian parliament has since been taken over by his Western-backed opponents and a new interim government installed. Washington and Brussels swiftly moved to recognize this so-called new authority in Kiev, but Russia, with sound legal reasoning, has denounced the sacking of the elected Yanukovych and his government as a coup d’état.
    The turmoil in Ukraine has therefore all the hallmarks of a Washington-led regime-change operation. Needless to say that is a wholly criminal interference that makes a mockery of international law. The ultimate target of this meddling, as has been brazenly stated over many years since the early 1990s by Zbigniew Brzezinski and other US imperial planners, is the destabilization of Russia itself.
    Risibly, Washington’s new puppet president in Kiev, Oleksandr Turchynov, has now accused Russian forces of “seizing and capturing” the regional parliament and other government buildings in Ukraine’s southern Crimea. This complaint comes from political agitators who used violence and other crimes, including the murder of policemen, to seize government buildings in Kiev, culminating in the ousting of an elected president.
    In all this, Russian President Vladimir Putin has maintained a cagey silence. But the Russian leader knows only too well the depth of American deception and hypocrisy, and Washington’s covert agenda for regime change – an agenda which is being ruthlessly pursued against Russia’s Arab ally, Syria.
    For now, Moscow seems to be effecting an air of calm legality and playing by the rules, citing that its troops in Crimea are part of its bilateral military agreement with the Ukraine.
    But, off the record, the Americans know that what Putin is really saying is this: “You want to break the law, well, OK, we can break it too. Now back off!”
    Rules of sovereignty and international law are out the window, and it is Washington and its European puppets who threw all norms out that window with their incessant, illegal interference in Ukraine. Ukrainian territory, and its centuries of shared history, is a vital interest for Russia.
    Putin is entirely right to lay down an unspoken military marker to Washington over Ukraine, just like he did when the Americans tried to mess militarily with South Ossetia in 2008 through its NATO proxy, Georgia.
    American exceptionalism of arrogance and lawlessness does not understand the language of diplomacy. The only language it responds to is blunt force talking back to force.”

    The full Piece, and other related links @

    http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/putin-faces-down-obama-over-ukraine/#more-158747

  70. “And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”
    ———————————————————————————

    Well I’m not a Putinista, but I’ll have a go.
    Firstly I’m not sure there is a majority in favour of secession in those two states (correct me if I’m wrong).
    Secondly, I’m not sure they would necessarily want to secede into an Islamic state under Sharia law.
    Thirdly, if they want to secede, why do they not push politically for a referendum instead of indulging in a violent insurgency?

  71. the most vital & telling pic of the Ukraine saga:

    Map of Russian gas supply pipelines via Ukraine
    https://en.ria.ru/images/15520/63/155206369.jpg

  72. “Yes, there is a lot written in favour of liberal intervention, by neo-cons like Yoo and Blairite acolytes like Cooper. But that neo-cons claim their “might is right” policy is legal, does not make it so. There is no solid body of case law than negates the principle of non-interference.”

    I don’t think legality comes into it.

    Russia will protect their interests legal or illegal, just like America does.

  73. just as we cyncially exploited concern for women’s rights in the build-up to attacking Afghanistan, it has been “concern” for gay rights in the case of Russia/Ukraine. BBC World Sce has broadcast the following more than once to date &, in Australia, which carries BBC on ABC News Radio, we have probably heard it four times already.

    anonymous russian gay who has to enter US via Mexico/Rio Grande & lots of other nonsense about how many more gays will seek asylum in the future. never explains what the actual Russian law is about. plenty of the narcissistic, spooky Amb Michael McFaul, who resigned in Feb. plus a Russian woman from New York who just happens to have an NBC-Sochi-reporter friend who she tweets in Sochi:

    BBC “The World”: Boston Calling – Russian Departures
    The story of a gay Russian man who fears persecution at home and heads to the US seeking asylum – and a new life. Also on the programme, the out-going US ambassador to Russia reminisces about his time in Moscow and the active social media presence he nurtured while serving there. We also explore the Russian aversion to putting ice cubes in drinking glasses…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01sqlxd/Boston_Calling_Russian_Departures/

    the program was co-produced by the following:

    The World is a US-based international news and analysis program co-produced by the BBC, PRI, and WGBH. Hosted by Marco Werman
    http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/public-radio-international/pris-the-world-latest-edition

    McFaul adulation at the Moscow Times – matches the BBC program above:

    11 Feb – Moscow Times: Farewell, Ambassador McFaul
    by Michael Bohm
    McFaul used his charm and “Twitter diplomacy” to win over tens of thousands of Russians. This led the Kremlin to carry out a smear and harassment campaign against him…
    In a farewell interview with Kommersant, McFaul said one of his greatest failures as ambassador was his inability to destroy the myth that the U.S. wants to organize a revolution in Russia…
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/farewell-ambassador-mcfaul/494528.html

  74. Herbie:

    “I haven’t made any claim about the legitimacy of the Ukrainian parliamentary decision.

    But, both yourself and Angrysoba have claimed it as legitimate.

    So, can you please answer the questions put to you:

    1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?

    2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.

    3. Was the president ousted lawfully and in accordance with the constitution?”

    Herbie, I don’t believe I have argued for the legitimacy of Yanukovych’s ousting. The argument I made was that it was conducted by Ukrainians which is very much the point I made before that Ukraine is deciding its future and not the “western oligarchs” who you say scuppered a peaceful agreement with violence. You still haven’t been able to substantiate this argument and you’ve been clutching at straws ever since. Everything aimed at defending Putin’s actions of invading a sovereign nation.

    I haven’t answered your questions because they are irrelevant and aimed not at clarity but at creating confusion which is the usual purpose of JAQing off.

  75. Russia’s Permanent Representative in the United Nations Organisation Vitaly Churkin said at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday:

    It is needed to bring the situation back on political track and in constitutional framework. It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity.

    But as noted above, CM is not interested in, and therefore won’t talk about, a return to a constitutional framework. Instead he blathers on about the victimhood of our side, hoping like Hell that the Russians can be incited to kill a some Ukrainians thereby consolidating a fraudulent moral case for regime change in Ukraine, if not another $trillion-dollar-war.

    This is, in fact, nothing more than a Neo-Con/Neo-Nazi propaganda site, which is no doubt why the long absent (thankfully) AngrySobarbarian of the Crass Sunstein school of blogging has returned to give support at a difficult time.

    Vivre the Global Empire for the greater profits of international capital, and fuck the EU.

  76. Craig: “neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”

    Did you not see Richard’s Post;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/putin-and-international-law/#comment-443645

    Perhaps you are jumping the gun, and falling for what could be just Putin’s positioning gambit, as although he has sought & obtained authorization for military intervention in the, but it has happened yet, and maybe it won’t, afterall he has many options & time is one of them;

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/02/vladimir_putin_can_destabilize_ukraine_the_russian_president_doesn_t_need.html

  77. 2 Mar – Voice of Russia: US, EU ‘pyromaniacs’ surprised at fire they started in Ukraine – expert
    The United States and European Union should have anticipated the consequences of their dubious decision to throw support behind the Ukrainian regime change, a French geopolitical analyst has told Russian media.
    “What we are witnessing now is the easily predictable aftermath of the US and EU’s irresponsible decision to back the overthrow of a legally-elected Ukrainian president at the time when Russia was busy with the Sochi Olympic Games,” Emerique Chopard said in an interview with Interfax.
    “I have been warning about a possible escalation since the very beginning of the Ukrainian unrest, which was provoked by outside actors,” he added…
    Cabinet pyromaniacs [in Western countries], who wanted to play with fire without giving a second thought to the consequences of their decision to pit one part of Ukraine against the other, are of course upset over the arrival of Russian ‘firefighters,’” Chopard said.
    “But it’s these pyromaniacs that will have to bear the brunt of colossal historic responsibility for leaving Ukraine a weaker state.”
    Emerique Chopard has called on international community to look for a way out of this crisis without the help from United States…
    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_02/US-EU-pyromaniacs-surprised-at-fire-they-started-in-Ukraine-expert-8741/

  78. Sept 2013: Economist: The other Yalta conference
    A global elite gathering in the Crimea
    The future of Ukraine, a country of 48m people, and of Europe was being decided in real time…
    The guestbook read like a Who’s Who of Europe. Mario Monti and Gerhard Schroder, a former prime minister of Italy and a former chancellor of Germany, along with Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former managing director of the IMF, were lamenting the lack of visionary and inspiring European leaders who could re-ignite the passion for a united Europe. Egemen Bagis, Turkey’s chief negotiator with the EU, passionately lectured them on the benefits of fiscal discipline.
    Lawrence Summers, a former American treasury secretary, and Robert Zoellick, an ex-head of the World Bank, were reflecting on the imbalances of the world economy. David Petraeus, a retired general and former head of the CIA, and Bill Richardson, a former energy secretary, talked about the shale-gas revolution that is changing the balance of power between Russia and the West. Mr Pinchuk himself was having a ball, moderating a session between Tony Blair and Bill Clinton…
    Yet the real focus of the conference was Ukraine itself. It is close to signing an association and free-trade agreements with the EU at a summit in Vilnius in November. The EU is keener than ever on the agreement. Russia, on the other hand, considers this a red line. Crossing it could spell a trade war…
    Russia is fast losing Ukraine through its own arrogance and bullying. The contrast between the way Ukraine is treated by Russia and the West was only too obvious in Yalta. Whereas America was represented by a dozen high-level officials, including the former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, who gave a speech, Russia did not even bother to send its ambassador. Its only representative was Sergei Glaziev, a nationalist-minded economic advisor to Mr Putin, whose job was to warn Ukraine against a “suicidal” step…
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/09/other-yalta-conference

    i’m surprised they sent anyone at all to that “den of thieves”.

  79. Peter Hitchens: ‘Russia is sick of being humiliated and pushed around by ignorant outsiders’: MoS columnist PETER HITCHENS says Putin DOES have a right to intervene
    We have been rubbing Russia up the wrong way for nearly 25 years.
    It is hard to see why…
    Senior American, German and EU figures have gone to Kiev to egg on the anti-Russian crowds. Imagine how you would feel if Russia’s Foreign Minister turned up at SNP rallies in Edinburgh, backing Scottish independence…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2571139/Russia-sick-humiliated-pushed-ignorant-outsiders-MoS-columnist-PETER-HITCHENS-says-Putin-DOES-right-intervene.html

  80. Oddie, I think your map of the pipelines said it all. Must get to bed. Interesting debate.

  81. This is, in fact, nothing more than a Neo-Con/Neo-Nazi propaganda site, which is no doubt why the long absent (thankfully) AngrySobarbarian of the Crass Sunstein school of blogging has returned to give support at a difficult time.

    I feel so proud! Although not as proud as when I first looked and assumed you had adjectivized my name, in a similar manner to how Robert Fisk’s name got verbed. Speaking of which, it turns out that the Stop the War Coalition have remarkably decided not to oppose Russia’s invasion of Ukraine but rather to explain to us plebs why Russia’s invasion of a sovereign country is very, very different to an American invasion.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2014/03/britain-and-ukraine

    Lindsey German seems to be railing at the lizard men who are my actual employers, rather than Cass Susstein, who I have never met, not even once, and who has never paid me any money, not one shekel.

    And, of course, she is parroting the Kremlin line throughout. It would be just as easy to accuse her of being on Putin’s payroll but as I have no evidence for that I won’t make such an accusation. I’ll just assume the most likely interpretation which is that she’s ideologically blinkered.

    However, here’s an interesting petition which was written by actual experts on Ukraine’s far-right in which they argue:

    “An increasing number of lay assessments of the Ukrainian protest movement, to one degree or another, misrepresents the role, salience and impact of Ukraine’s far right within the protest movement. Numerous reports allege that the pro-European movement is being infiltrated, driven or taken over by radically ethnocentrist groups of the lunatic fringe. Some presentations create the misleading impression that ultra-nationalist actors and ideas are at the core or helm of the Ukrainian protests. Graphic pictures, juicy quotes, sweeping comparisons and dark historical references are in high demand. They are combined with a disproportionate consideration of one particularly visible, yet politically minor segment within the confusing mosaic that is formed by the hundreds of thousands of protesters with their different motivations, backgrounds and aims.

    Both the violent and non-violent resistance in Kyiv includes representatives from all political camps as well as non-ideological persons who may have problems locating themselves politically. Not only the peaceful protesters, but also those using sticks, stones and even Molotov Cocktails, in their physical confrontation with police special units and government-directed thugs, constitute a broad movement that is not centralized. Most protesters only turned violent in response to increasing police ferocity and the radicalization of Yanukovych’s regime. The demonstrators include liberals and conservatives, socialists and libertarians, nationalists and cosmopolitans, Christians, non-Christians and atheists.”

    https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/to-journalists-commentators-and-analysts-writing-on-the-ukrainian-protest-movement-euromaidan-kyiv-s-euromaidan-is-a-liberationist-and-not-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience

  82. Oddie, who the Hell is Emerique Chopard and why should anyone consider his opinion to be worth anything? However, it is pretty obvious that Russian news agencies are going to repeat any opinion that sounds good to them.

  83. Interesting map which highlights the historical background complexities of Ukrainian national identity, and the questions it raises for self determination of all parts of the Ukraine;

    https://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/map.jpg

    (In a area of the World with long historical memories, a Russian might argue that which was annexed TO can also be annexed FROM !)

  84. Here’s another who-theHell-is-this for Angry;

    http://www.swans.com/library/art20/ga332.html

  85. Yes, I certainly have little idea who Gilles d’Aymery, although I looked him up on Google.

    I fail to see the relevance of his piece when it comes to Putin’s deployment of troops to Ukraine. In fact, the arguments in favour of Putin’s actions have tended to avoid any relevant facts whatsoever. Is there any reason for that?

    (In a area of the World with long historical memories, a Russian might argue that which was annexed TO can also be annexed FROM !)

    And they would be wrong, if they assumed that such annexing would be legal. Of course, you could still be correct. A military invasion and conquest of territory is always possible, but I would have thought you would be against that type of thing. What is it about Mother Russia that makes her imperialism so appealing?

  86. This may yet turn into the worst nightmare for the US/Nato/Nazis: Russia has agreed to Merkel’s proposal for a Ukraine ‘fact-finding’ mission.

    But, hey, we don’t want no facts, we just regime change, IMF loans, austerity and an unobstructed entry of international capital to exploit Ukraine’s resources and cheap labor.

    But if Germany and Russia can sort out the problem in Ukraine between themselves, what need is there for NATO, the UN and the New World Ordure?

    Germany’s been occupied for 69 years now, but with a good working relationship with Russia, what’s the US gonna do when Germany asks them to go fuck themselves, I mean, leave?

    May be the Brits would like an end to American occupation too — in fact wouldn’t all of Europe?

  87. CanSpeccy, when people have disagreements over a football game you often hear someone say, “I don’t know which game you were watching.” In this case, I am not sure what world you are living in, but in this one, Germany and the UK are not occupied.

    Also, from your own link:

    “The chancellor called upon [Putin] again to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity,” deputy government spokesperson Georg Streiter said in a statement following the phone call between the two leaders.

    Now, do you agree with Merkel that Putin should have and should now respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity?

  88. POCC mo thóin

    3 Mar, 2014 - 5:24 am

    So it falls to lugubrious horse-faced gigolo John Kerry to fulminate in comical impotence. Eastern Ukraine is going to pull a Slovenia and secede at their leisure (they’ve already pulled off the Slovenes’ amazing disappearing-military trick, with ОМРП and вы́мпел all over em like a cheap suit, just in case.) The EU winds up with the giant mutant hedgehogs of the exclusion zone plus blonde Africa with the Springtime-for-Hitler kulak babies in charge.

    The FSB guys are cryin laffin.

  89. Very sad to have to say this since I have been an admirer for some time. But poor Craig appears to have lost his former powers of critical reasoning. I know that he has had medical problems that were heart-related, but while the loss of such capacity can come about due to oxygen deficiency, it is more commonly associated with specific brain tumours. If I were a close friend I would encourage him to undergo a CATscan quite soon. Wishing him all the best but no longer listening to his current nonsense.

  90. Black jelly

    3 Mar, 2014 - 6:46 am

    Coming back to more mundane matters, I saw GOD make a max 147 break in winning the Welsh Open Snooker last night, with His Left Hand no less!! And Ronnie Sullivan doesnt look one bit like the “chosen” deluded khazars, who routinely risk papilloma to snare beautiful rare bits of Welsh shikse!

  91. Clarence: Very sad to have to say this since I have been an admirer for some time. But poor Craig appears to have lost his former powers of critical reasoning. I know that he has had medical problems that were heart-related, but while the loss of such capacity can come about due to oxygen deficiency, it is more commonly associated with specific brain tumours. If I were a close friend I would encourage him to undergo a CATscan quite soon. Wishing him all the best but no longer listening to his current nonsense.

    Wow! So, the only possible reason for somebody disagreeing with Putin is that they must have a problem with their brain? That’s a pretty chilling throwback to the old Soviet days when dissidents were actually sent to mental hospitals:

    In the Soviet Union, a systematic political abuse of psychiatry took place[1] and was based on the interpretation of political dissent as a psychiatric problem.[2]
    During the leadership of General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev, psychiatry was used as a tool to eliminate political opponents (“dissidents”) who openly expressed beliefs that contradicted official dogma.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

  92. Resident Dissident

    3 Mar, 2014 - 7:00 am

    Why if Russia has done no wrong in Russia do its troops their hide their insignia? It is the little things that give your own guilt away.

  93. CanSpeccy 3.05am hits the nail on the head. Germany is probably the only European country with insight and nascent power in the US-UK-NATO block sufficient to scupper its immediate designs. The intro to the ‘Price Obama is about to pay’ article I linked to a day or two ago makes the point well.

    The bickering over trivia in this thread really is depressing – but of course that is exactly what Cass Sunstein and the latest revelations from GCHQ advocate as the best means of dealing with internet dissent – something for the genuine truth-seekers here to ponder.

    With a few notable exceptions, nobody seems to think the big picture has any relevance whatsoever. Whereas the context is that of a relentlessly expansionist US-UK-NATO block pressurunf and constantly demonising Russia and using any and all means to expand Eastwards, trashing any agreements that get in the way of that project on the way – most notably the ABM Treaty and assurances to Gorbachev and his successors about incorporation of ex-Soviet Republics into NATO.

    A really am gob-smacked that CM appears oblivious to what is going on here. Has he been made an offer (subliminally even) he can’t refuse?

  94. Bad link again

    Try this

  95. Angrysoba,

    And what, precisely, does the old Soviet regime have to do with today’s propoganda-inspired nonsense, or poor Craig’s loss of touch? Also, anyone who quotes Wikipedia as a source surely has problems of their own.

  96. Clarence has a riddle for us:

    “what, precisely, does the old Soviet regime have to do with today’s propoganda-inspired nonsense”

    Because it emerges, cobwebbed and dusty, from the Kremlin, and has the support of all kinds of western “intellectuals” of the “pacifist” persuasion?

  97. Wikispooks,

    Your analysis of CM’s conversion may be correct, but I doubt it. He seems an honourable man. But whether his conversion is the result of nature or of some CIA-inspired (Castro-like) manipulation is not beyond conjecture.

  98. Black jelly

    3 Mar, 2014 - 7:51 am

    @Angrysoba

    Sorry either you are with the Ghouta gassing false flag (Kohn,Obama,Rifkind,Hague,Fabius,ec) crowd or you are with us (Putin,Assad,Lavrov,etc). One side has to be the devil and the other the good guys. If you are a dershowitz we completely understand but remember there will be no hiding behind the gharkad then.

  99. Black Jelly,

    You seem to be posting some weird and (not so-)cryptic anti-semitic remarks (if I understand your references to “dershowitz”, “gharkad” and “khazars” correctly). Suffice to say, that is quite enough to thoroughly put me off your “side”.

  100. Black jelly

    3 Mar, 2014 - 8:08 am

    @Angrysoba – Oh so bibi satanyahu gave us a “thoroughly” false 8200 intercept about the 400 gassed Alawite kids at Ghouta, with that hellerstein logic you must be a dershowitz then ! And on his side.

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted In The Cloud