When NATO forces attacked Serbia in 1999, killing many civilians, in order to establish the current disastrous mafia statelet of Kosovo, Sergei Lavrov spoke very wisely at the Security Council. He said:
Attempts to justify strikes as preventing humanitarian catastrophe were not recognized by international law, he said. The use of unilateral force would lead to a situation with devastating humanitarian consequences. No considerations of any kind could serve to justify aggression. Violations of law could only be combated on the solid basis of the law.
Attempts to apply other standards to international law and disregard other laws created a dangerous precedent, he said. The virus of a unilateral approach could spread… the Council alone should decide the means to maintain or restore international security. NATO’s attempt to enter the twenty-first century in the uniform of an international gendarme set a dangerous precedent.
He was of course absolutely right. Liberal interventionism and the right to protect were extremely foolish and dangerous doctrines. When propagated by useful idiots, even at their most high-minded they were never more that a repetition of the old imperialist “civilizing mission” of military attack to eradicate barbarous practices. In fact they were brutally utilized as an excuse for resource grab and personal enrichment.
The Robert Coopers of this world have been hoist with their own petard, because it was always inevitable that others would use the same excuse in areas where they had power, to do what the US and its satellites were doing where they could. If you promulgate that might is right, you cannot complain when someone punches you.
But that does not make Russia’s actions in the Ukraine right – rather it makes Lavrov a complete hypocrite. As Lavrov said to the Security Council, “the Council alone should decide the means to maintain or restore international security”, and the security council voted by 13 to 1 against the Crimea referendum. It is beyond argument that the man is massively hypocritical.
The truth is that the western powers and Russia are both vicious in the field of foreign relations and have little real care for ordinary people and their rights. Russian actions in military occupation of Crimea (far beyond keeping an agreed number of troops stationed in agreed bases) are indeed illegitimate and illegal.
Let me add two more hypocrisies in the Russian position. It is an offence carrying up to 22 years in jail to advocate the secession of any part of Russia. There is no sign of any referendum on self-determination for the people of Chechnya and Dagestan. I do not believe that in a genuinely democratic vote, there is any political proposition which would ever get 97% of the vote. You couldn’t get 97% of any group of people to vote for free ice cream. Interestingly enough, Putin is claiming in the Crimea precisely the same percentage – 97% – that Hitler claimed in his Plebiscite in Austria to ratify the Anschluss.
The other thing I thought wonderfully ironic is that I saw two representatives of the “international observer group” on Russia Today this morning, one Polish and one Hungarian, and both were from fully paid up genuine fascist organisations. The Hungarian has been saying it is most unfortunate that the BNP couldn’t make it.
For the other side of this coin – western hypocrisy – see here.
Craig, Yatsenyuk is being funded the same way Werritty was, through charities and NGOs. Apparently these charities can no longer be accessed online.
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2014/03/the-arseniy-yatsenyuk-foundation-has-disappeared/
The video from StormCloudsGathering (I won’t link it again) purports to show at about 7.45 minutes funding to the accounts of one of the NGOs:
“You know the funny thing about the National Endowment for Democracy is that even though they call themselves an NGO they get virtually all of it’s money from the U.S. federal government. You can verify this by downloading their annual financial disclosures.”
It is depressing to see how many commentators in the West, even those on the left, ignore the fate ot the tatars in the present chain of events in Crimea. In another era, May 1944, Stalin had almost 200,000 tatars expelled from Crimea.
Earlier today this picture was taken. “Tatars out of Crimea” https://twitter.com/ilyamuz/status/445435387813453824
I should have put the list of partners can no longer be accessed on Open Ukraine’s website. Mary first discovered this several days back.
@ John Gross:
Yatsenyuk is being funded the same way Werritty was, through charities and NGOs. Apparently these charities can no longer be accessed online.
There are not just “charities,” they’re Chatham House, the public face of the Rhodes–Milner secret society for Anglo-Saxon world empire, NATO, the US State Department and SwedBank, among others. And Arse Yatsenyuk’s list of backers (sorry “Partners”) is still on line.
The Legal insanity of certain US Presidential Executive Orders:
..the actions and policies of persons — including persons who have asserted governmental authority in the Crimean region without the authorization of the Government of Ukraine — that undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets, constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.
Updated to:
..the actions and policies of the Government of the Russian Federation with respect to Ukraine — including the recent deployment of Russian Federation military forces in the Crimea region of Ukraine — undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets, and thereby constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.
Fukin bollocks!
With Crimea Putin has managed to reverse all of Yeltsins follies, including bringing the oligarchs to heel. Now for Gorbachevs follies. As a God he will achieve that as well, just as a reward for giving refuge to Snowden. If he had not done so we would never have discovered Obamas leery smile at G8 was with the NSA knowledge that Angela Merkel was wearing red panties with a frontal slit that day.
Axel the photograph could be genuine. If so it is a disgrace. However, for one photograph, which should be condemned by everybody, it does not amount to a pogrom and things should be kept in proportion. I could take you round Birmingham and show you similar racist graffiti.
@ Axel
It is depressing to see how many commentators in the West, even those on the left, ignore the fate ot the tatars in the present chain of events in Crimea. In another era, May 1944, Stalin had almost 200,000 tatars expelled from Crimea.
Why do you find that so depressing when you and others on the left or right or whatever don’t give a damn over the fact that the English are being driven from their capital city and from other major English cities by a flood of East European and Third World immigrants?
If London were to conduct a referendum calling for independence from England, there’s not a damn thing the English could do to prevent a majority “yes” vote.
Mark; In the West’s parlance on the value of International Law…..
“Some pigs are more equal than others” Orwell.
Canspeccy, while you’re right in that those are the bodies making donations they are being donated through http://openukraine.org/ua which once had the list of supporting bodies (which I know are not charities) but no longer shows them as the link I provided demonstrates. The first link is like a screen-capture of how the Open Ukraine website looked before it ceased to be “open” and before they removed the funding bodies from their webpage (link above).
@Russophile:
With Crimea Putin has managed to reverse all of Yeltsins follies, including bringing the oligarchs to heel …
On what grounds do you say he has brought the oligarchs to heel?
Rather it would seem Putin has re-established the Tsarist system as it might have evolved into a constitutional democracy had it not been for WWI: i.e., a powerful central government operating in large measure through the aristocracy/oligarchy, whose privileges are conditional on their service to the state.
damn, I meant “constitutional monarchy” not constitutional democracy.
Another funding body of Yatsenyuk through his western-funded NGO is the Polish Embassy at Kiev which I have only just noticed.
“the Council alone should decide the means to maintain or restore international security”
Hey, the Council did decide, in strict accordance with the UN Charter. Russia cast their P5 vote as provided for in Article 27 clause 3. Sucks, but there it is.
Maybe now the US will see the point of the Small Five’s modest UNSC proposal curtailing use of the veto, which the NATO bloc torpedoed in the GA with massive arm-twisting and bribes. Maybe they will even think twice about the veto. Ha ha, just kidding, of course they won’t. For the US the UN is a soundstage or a weapon, when they’re not trying to end-run it illegally with NATO.
One thing the Russians consistently do is table the option of pacific resolution of disputes. But that’s na ga happen till the US complies with the non-interference principle and renounces great-power confrontation. The Russians are not suicidal.
John Goss
You’re talking about NED, who were deeply involved in Ukraine, and operate in interesting countries all around the world:
Basically it’s the CIA in civilian form:
“A lot of what we [NED] do was done 25 years ago covertly by the CIA”
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/National_Endowment_for_Democracy
“Seemingly every other day there was a new headline about the discovery of some awful thing, even criminal conduct, the CIA had been mixed up in for years. The Agency was getting an exceedingly bad name, and it was causing the powers-that-be much embarrassment.
Something had to be done. What was done was not to stop doing these awful things. Of course not. What was done was to shift many of these awful things to a new organization, with a nice sounding name – The National Endowment for Democracy. The idea was that the NED would do somewhat overtly what the CIA had been doing covertly for decades, and thus, hopefully, eliminate the stigma associated with CIA covert activities..”
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_cia11.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4332.htm
http://www.ned.org/
Anyway, it’s about time the Germans were given a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, and kick the fuckin Brits and Frogs out.
Neither the Brits nor Frogs are going anywhere economically without US sayso and are a joke in terms of where power actually lies.
Both are a waste of space.
Herbie, I’m sure you’re right. NED will get the same name as the CIA and then it will change again. We’ve seen it all before, NKVD, GUGB, KGB.
I’m sure Lavrov was right about “Liberal Interventionism” He wasn’t the only one. Lots of people pointed out at the time that it would set a precedent. They were shouted down by the useful idiots of the “something must be done brigade” who let television do their thinking for them. The Clintons, Blairs etc. never had any intention of listening anyway (since they are so much more intelligent than the rest of us – in an egalitarian kind of way, of course).
Now, somehow, people expect Russia to stand by after “peaceful” protesters gain power in Kiev by the tried and tested democratic process of chucking petrol bombs and shooting bullets, start threatening Russians, Russian speakers and pro-Russian Ukrainians (yes, there are some. I don’t know how many, but I know at least one personally) and all-in-all buggering up what was a workable compromise which most Ukrainian Russians were prepared to go along with – and had done since the end of the U.S.S.R.
Calling Lavrov a hypocrite may be true (after all, how many of us are not?) but it’s hardly germane. It’s like calling anybody who opposes mass immigration or some of the policies of Israel “racist” or “anti-Semitic” respectively. It is a tactic to avoid answering most of the points they make.
At this point, it is worth noting that Britain went to war twice in the first half of last century to limit German power in Central Europe. Well, that went well, didn’t it. Yet another policy of the British government meets with outstanding success. What kind of idiot in this day and age would try to limit Russian influence in Donbass and Crimea? It isn’t going to happen!
The Crimean chapter of this sorry saga is over.
So far, the only blood spilt has been in the overthrow of the government in Kiev a few weeks ago. Unless Western politicians start displaying rather more sense than they showed getting us into this mess, that situation probably won’t last. War in Donbass is a distinct possibility so it is time to start de-fusing the situation rather than putting all the blame on Russia and talking the situation up. Unless that is done, a lot of young men and civilians could end up dead and maimed.
“With Crimea Putin has managed to reverse all of Yeltsins follies, including bringing the oligarchs to heel. Now for Gorbachevs follies. As a God he will achieve that as well, just as a reward for giving refuge to Snowden. If he had not done so we would never have discovered Obamas leery smile at G8 was with the NSA knowledge that Angela Merkel was wearing red panties with a frontal slit that day.”
Well if you are going to tell a lie tell a big one. I don’t rate Snowden’s chances very highly if he goes back to the good old KGB days before Gorbachev.
“Lavrov’s point is that to intervene…”
The words that Lavrov actually used were ‘strikes,’ ‘use of force,’ and ‘aggression.’ No doubt he chose his words carefully because that’s not what Russia has done. Russia’s got some chalk on their cleats, as the US torturers say, but they’re not yet clearly out of bounds.
The Security Council is not the sole arbiter of strikes. Take the case of the US strike on Iraq, Operation Praying Mantis. From the US point of view, they were in strict compliance with the UN Charter, even tossing an Article 51 invocation over the UN transom as they went to war. The UNSC held still for that, as they were constrained to do, but the ICJ called bullshit, voiding US claims of self-defense on necessity and proportionality criteria. Perhaps the ICJ will have the last word here. If so, that’s great, the system works.
In terms of the customary international law on aggression, use of force must be in manifest breach of the UN Charter. A veto’s not a manifest breach. Are Russia’s actions even use of force? It’s certainly interference. If the international community wants to clarify the ambiguities in this situation, the UNGA can pass a Uniting for Peace resolution.
Macky
You are astonished I talk about Kosovo when a few days ago I had little knowledge. It is called the capacity to learn, Macky, you should try it.
Not only an I suddenly a US stooge for not agreeing with you, but now all twelve other countries at the UN security council which voted against Russia are US stooges too. Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is in the pay of the CIA, blackmailed by the US, or a Nazi. Weird that.
CanSpeccy – The NeoCon morons, psychopaths and pathetic incompetents will go on bashing away at their plan for global hegemony yes, and in terms of playing catch-up will assign themselves to lunacy and suicide.
I myself believe the U.S. has indeed ‘shot itself in the foot’ over Crimea and evolved the form and shape of global order.
Since the US powers failed to impose it’s will in Iraq, authentic democracy is now de rigeur as revealed by Arab opinion that confirms U.S. and Israel as major threats.
Iran under constant threat of attack has acquired according to my sources, a fast track nuclear deterrent. Further Iran has expanded its influence in neighboring countries while US and Europe have become isolated in punishing Iran for it’s threat to world order ‘stability’ i.e. by encouraging Chinese investment and trade; China now expanding military forces and ‘blue water’ Naval capability.
No, US of A, privatising the planet is no longer an option – your good American citizens are indeed fucked off – fed-up with foreign intervention, income stagnation, corporate funded ‘democracy’ bailouts, too big to fail banksters and their risky transactions, a police state, anti-immigrant hysteria and the rise of neo-fascists and the ultra-racist right.
Finally climate and environmental dangers(hydraulic and explosive fracturing) are threatening human existence.
God promised Noah that there will not be another flood is indeed bull-shit.
We leave future generations a cataclysm, misery and melt-down. And I am guilt-ridden!
The Negroponte doctrine. UNSC votes by US wrt to Palestine/Israel.
“On July 26, 2002, John Negroponte, the United States Ambassador to the United Nations, stated (during a closed meeting of the UN Security Council) that the United States will oppose Security Council resolutions concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict that condemn Israel without also condemning terrorist groups. This became known as the Negroponte Doctrine, and has been viewed by officials in the United States as a counterweight to the frequent resolutions denouncing Israel that are passed by the UN General Assembly.
Widely reported summaries of Negroponte’s statement (an official transcript of these closed-session remarks does not appear to have been released) have stated that for any resolution to go forward, the United States, which has a veto in the 15-nation council, would expect it to have the following four elements:
A strong and explicit condemnation of all terrorism and incitement to terrorism;
A condemnation by name of the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade, Islamic Jihad and Hamas, groups that have claimed responsibility for suicide attacks on Israel;
An appeal to all parties for a political settlement of the crisis;
A demand for improvement of the security situation as a condition for any call for a withdrawal of Israeli armed forces to positions they held before the September 2000 start of the Second intifada.”
I don’t necessarily buy into the biblical tenor of Mr Golding’s last post, but I do think that the Ukraine situation may mark a watershed in the geopolitical status quo.
For once the US is powerless to respond to another power calling its bluff.
Until 1989 for decades we had a balance of power situation courtesy of the cold war.
Since then we have had US hegemony, which opportunity it took to with a hamfooted giantism right out of some Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale.
But now the US is exhausted financially and cutting down on its military.
Its open season.
With this in mind I applaud Richard’s post earlier. I don’t necessarily agree with his first or fourth paragraphs, but the fifth is the one that matters.
sorry I mean the sixth, last
Craig
“but now all twelve other countries at the UN security council which voted against Russia are US stooges too.”
It’s difficult for any country to vote in favour of an incursion, for obvious reasons.
In that light the fact that China abstained is very significant, as I’m sure you understand.
I’m sure they’d much rather have voted against.
“Macky
You are astonished I talk about Kosovo when a few days ago I had little knowledge. It is called the capacity to learn, Macky, you should try it.
Not only an I suddenly a US stooge for not agreeing with you, but now all twelve other countries at the UN security council which voted against Russia are US stooges too. Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is in the pay of the CIA, blackmailed by the US, or a Nazi. Weird that.”
________________________
There you go, Corporal Macky, you’ve been told.
I also feel you should develop the capacity to learn. There is a lot of ground to make up – as Dreoilin noticed quite a while ago when she said you weren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Hurbeee
“In that light the fact that China abstained is very significant, as I’m sure you understand.
I’m sure they’d much rather have voted against.”
___________________
Why are you so sure? In the past China’s not hesitated to vote against US sponsored UN draft resolutions. Please explain if you can.
@John Goss. Anti-tartar repression in Crimea is real and it is a disgrace. Unfortunately it is not an isolated fact. Just remember how Russia (Stalin as well as Yeltsin and Putin) have dealt with another muslim people in Russia, the Chechens. Extremely brutal suppression.
And why should we have to side with one of the big powers (US or Russia) when they play their dirty game of influence? Remember how WW1 started. Ukraine is trying to rise out of its dependence and it is best served by our support to its democratic forces, not to the imperial schemes from either superpower. Putin’s annexation of Crimea is neither in the interest of the Russian or the Ukrainian population. I fear the worst.
Craig, wrt Yugoslavia, you either somehow manage to misunderstand, or you chose to misrepresent, as my astonishment was due to the your statement of being too preoccupied to pay any attention to the most serious conflict in Europe since WW2.
I did not call you or anybody else a stooge, I didn’t say you or anybody else was either in the pay of, or being blackmail by the CIA; rather what I did was to highlight a consideration that the Russians may have, that of the of weaker countries of the UNSC being pressurized by the US, because whetever you like it or not, there is a known track record of the US doing exactly that. Anyhow since you mention blackmail, let’s not forget that Wikileakes revealed that Hillary Clinton ordered American officials to spy on high ranking UN diplomats, & even ordered her diplomats to obtain DNA data – including iris scans and fingerprints – as well as credit card and frequent flier numbers. All permanent members of the security council were targeted by the secret spying mission, as well as the Secretary General of the UN, Ban Ki-Moon.