NATO – An Idea Whose Time Has Gone

by craig on September 4, 2014 10:22 am in Uncategorized

In the past dozen years, the armed forces of NATO countries, whether operating under the NATO banner or in related ad-hoc coalitions, have killed many hundreds of thousands of people. Of those hundreds of thousands of people, only a few hundred at most ever had any connection to any attack on a NATO country.

Whatever modern NATO has become, a defensive alliance it is not; that fact is beyond rational dispute.

It is also the case that the situation in countries where NATO has been most active in killing people, including Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Pakistan, has deteriorated. It has deteriorated politically, economically, militarily and socially. The notion that NATO member states could bomb the world into good was only ever believed by crazed and fanatical people like Tony Blair and Jim Murphy of the Henry Jackson Society. It really should not have needed empirical investigation to prove it was wrong, but it has been tried, and has been proved wrong.

The NATO states as a group have also embarked on remarkably similar reductions in the civil liberties of their own populations during this period. NATO to me is symbolised by the fact that its Secretary General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, as Danish Prime Minister blatantly lied to the Danish parliament about Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction. When Major Frank Grevil released material that proved Rasmussen was lying, it was Grevil who was jailed for three years. In the United States, no CIA operative has been prosecuted for their widespread campaign of torture, but John Kiriakou is in jail for revealing it.

NATO’s attempt to be global arbiter and enforcer has been disastrous at all levels. Its plan to redeem itself by bombing the Caliphate in Iraq and Syria is a further sign of madness. Except of course that it will guarantee some blowback against Western targets, and that will “justify” further bombings, and yet more profit for the arms manufacturers. On that level, it is very clever and cynical. NATO provides power to the elite and money to the wealthy.

But what of Putin’s Russia, I hear you say? I am no fan of Putin – I think he is a nasty, dangerous little dictator. But little is the operative word.

Russia is not a great power. Its GDP is 10% of the GDP of the EU. Its economy is the same size as Italy’s. The capabilities of Russia’s armed forces are massively exaggerated by the security industry, including the security services, and by arms manufacturers. The entire area of Eastern Ukraine which Russia is disputing has a GDP smaller than the city of Dundee.

Russia is only any kind of “military threat” because of its nuclear arsenal. The way forward to peace is active international nuclear disarmament – and the existence of NATO is the greatest obstacle to that. The idea that almost the entire developed world needs to encircle and contain Russia with massive military threat, is as sensible as the idea that it needs to encircle the UK or France – both of which have substantially larger and more diversified economies than Russia and much larger and more technologically advanced arms industries.

NATO is by far the largest danger to world peace. It should be dissolved as a matter of urgency.

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169 Comments

  1. This article should be compulsory reading for all students of history and politics.

    NATO has become a supper club with a very costly subscription for its members. Its sole function now is to stir up trouble, to appease Washington neocons, and to drum up business for weapons manufacturers.

  2. Off topic but keep fighting the good fight Craig and best of luck on the 18th. Here’s hoping that one day us English will also achieve independence from the forces of murder and war

  3. Couldn’t agree more, Craig.

  4. BrianFujisanWabi-sabi

    4 Sep, 2014 - 10:42 am

    WOW

    thank yOU Craig

  5. Agree.It was born to defend,it has turned into a schizophrenic killer.Pointing to the destruction it causes as a reason to exist is far from healthy.

  6. It should come as no surprise, that when you create an organisation to thwart a problem, the problem becomes that organisations reason of existence; therefore its mutual promoter.

    Examples:
    – Social Services that create the ‘abusive houshold’ narrative.

    – The Police Forces, that extort patronage by controlling the criminal narratives.

    – Various charities, that spend huge amounts of donated money towards propaganda, rather than towards solutions.

  7. Nearly all of this post I agree with, especially “The way forward to peace is active international nuclear disarmament – and the existence of NATO is the greatest obstacle to that.”

    It has not had purpose since the Soviet Union was dismantled. Yet instead of its influence diminishing since then it has increased and it has moved into former Soviet-bloc countries to establish new bases there. This is, to say the least, provocative. But knowing that NATO needs dismantling is different from having a solution as to how to dismantle it! Perhaps when Scotland gets its independence it can lead the way by getting rid of trident!

    The major tragedy of NATO wars has been the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and ISIS (or ISIL) plus extremist Muslims who wish to impose Sharia law, not just in the middle east but all over the world. In that respect their ambitions are no different from the organisation that created them. This morning on Russia Today a London lawyer and Imam, Anjem Choudary, was articulately espousing his belief that Islam will take over the world and spread Sharia law. I for one would not want to live in his bigoted world.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjem_Choudary

    But he is a product of NATO expansionist killing machines, and a lot of what he says is true, about Guantanamo Bay, about NATO mass murder and western change in support for Assad. People like Choudary are dangerous. NATO has made enemies of them and created a monster, like the ‘centaur’ in Gramsci’s concept of hegemony, like NATO itself, and it is up to everybody to attempt to curb the power of such man-constructed monsters.

  8. NATO always reminds me of the Confederation of Delos. Started off as a defensive alliance against the Persians, and then slowly transformed into an empire by (democratic!) Athens, when the Persian threat disappeared. Nobody had the right to leave. The Treasury was transferred to Athens, but the allies still had to pay.

  9. For sure the Russian threat is exaggerated, which benefits both Putin and the Western military/industrial/security complex. And for sure Russia is no real threat to the UK or Germany for instance, and probably not even to Poland. But what about Estonia and other places that actually border on Russia? Why shouldf Putin feel entitled to dictate to them? I lost much of my previous respect for George Galloway recently when I heard him saying that Estonia was a small and faraway country and not worth a single British soldier’s life- echoing Neville Chamberlain almost word for word. If Scotland regains her independence- as I hope she will- she too will be a small country. THat’s worth thinking about.

    However, I agree that on balance NATO has done more harm than good since 1989. An alliance of European states, without the USA, would be much better. Sad to say, it would also need to exclude the UK, which is hopelessly subservient to America at all levels- ie all three mainstream parties, the Armed Forces, the media and finance “industry.”

  10. “Warpigs”. A favourite at the time of the Vietnam war, but seems even truer today. I won’t bore you with lyrics this time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGPD0ZBiMs0

  11. Pete

    I certainly think Estonia should be defended in the event of an attack by Russia, and it should be clear that is the case. But the truth is it would be practically impossible for EU member states not to respond to a military attack on the EU. That is well understood.

  12. Pete
    “An alliance of European states, without the USA, would be much better.”

    What on earth makes you think that? The European states were empire building when the US was but a pup. Still at it.

    An EU military force would be just as aggressive as NATO.

  13. “Russia is only any kind of “military threat” because of its nuclear arsenal.”

    Tell that to its neighbours or the Chechens

  14. NATO morphed from Cold War defence alliance to pan-European security organization to retain the Western alliance gravy killing machine. That much I agree with Craig.

    Nontheless Greater Russia is a myth. Russia is a great power in terms of strength, heart and spirit. Craig must remember is was Vladimer Putin that rescued Syria from NATO destruction. Certainly protecting Russian interests I agree as in Ukraine and Crimea yet vanquishing Western deception and lies to boot; red lines, chemical attacks, dodgy plots to overthrow belligerent leaders, WMD – lies, lies AND MORE LIES.

    No Craig – Putin may be a mobster, a gorilla with a clarion duty, believe.

  15. Mark Golding

    No, it was the unwillingness of the British public to be hauled into another stupid war that stopped it. If the British parliament had voted Yes to intervention instead of finding some guts and voting No, there is bugger all Putin could have done to stop it.

  16. “No, it was the unwillingness of the British public to be hauled into another stupid war that stopped it.”

    Gosh, who would have thought that the UK would be so useful… I know, lets dismantle it!

  17. nevermind, Scotland will be free

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:15 pm

    Great post, I ate it, well argued Craig and my point since the wall fell in 1989, but now NATO is the bitch for all causes, flogging arms by trying them out, NATO is the shop window for arms manufacturers and backroom dealers. It has lost its way and their spokesperson is becoming as run of the mill as Sepp Blatter is unmovable.

    @John Goss, re Anjem Choudary’s case, soft spoken he ususually is trying to assure us that Islam is a peacefull religion, now this worl occupying twaddle achieved by what? peacefull cohersion with Kalashnikovs and the Koran, for all to learn by rota at school?

    Sharia law all over the world, good they must have a lot of time on their hands, I recommend taking up an allotment to Anjem, it will keep his mind focussed on sustainable issues.

    war is the biggest man made environmental impact and to trumpet up more of it means that Anjem is as inarticulated as his USUKIS counterparts, not a clue about sustainable living. Everyone is all out for resources.

  18. It is quite clear that the aggressor and threat to world peace is not Russia but the US and its puppets. Rich twats like John Bolton know that the dollar is all but dead and these are people who live by it. All America has left in its political and diplomatic arsenal therefore are weapons. And with madmen like Bolton calling the shots anything can happen. Bearing in mind that Chatham House was one of the original dollar sponsors of Yatsenyuk’s coup d’etat in Ukraine it is frightening to hear him addressing delegates there with creepy messages like “I don’t ever want to see America in a fair fight again” and “I believe in full-spectrum dominance”.

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10101635926347289&set=vb.202798122688&type=2&theater

  19. UK said no to the war with Iraq but Blair ignored the will of the people and the UN.
    Lets dismantle it.

  20. republicofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:19 pm

    Good article Craig, when I think of neighbour’s who have a border with Russia, Finland springs to mind,if memory serves me,Finland isn’t a member of NATO, yet Finland doesn’t seem to be at odds with Russia.

    On Hardtalk BBC, the President of Georgia Giorgi Margvelashvili, hinted at his desire to be part of NATO, when told that NATO is primarily a military organisation, and it would be seen as a threat to Russia,Mr Margvelashvili, tried to play the significance down.

  21. YouKnowMyName

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:20 pm

    Estonia tho’, remember, currently has an unelected president (chosen by parliamentary deputies) – who is basically an American (Toomas Hendrik Ilves born in Sweden, educated in US & worked for the CIA led Radio Free Europe!) (as per the brilliant first Clinton-era strategy of Russian containment by surrounding the RU border with US puppets, Sakshvili, Vīķe-Freiberga, Adamkus for Georgia, Lithuania & Latvia respectively)

    Toomas Ilves currently might have some personal problems as the Estonian tabloids keep mentioning that his gorgeous pouting wife Evelin has been deliberately photographed romantically kissing the French IT entrepreneur Vincent Aranega in public, several times. Why we don’t know, but I presume it’s Putin’s Fault!

    Any NATO flags that are first waved in beautiful Estonia, for whatever reason, “Cyber” “Invasion” “ISIS” should be first very carefully checked for falseness!

  22. republicofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:28 pm

    Following a working visit to Mongolia, he answered journalists’ questions. In response to one, he explained his seven-point peace plan, saying:

    “On the way here from Blagoveshchensk to Ulan Bator, I jotted down a few thoughts that could constitute an action plan of sorts.”

    It challenges Washington’s regional hegemonic ambitions. It depends on war and conquest. Peace defeats its agenda.

    Putin’s peace plan.
    —————–
    “First, end active offensive operations by armed forces, armed units and militia groups in southeast Ukraine in the Donetsk and Lugansk areas.”

    “Second, withdraw Ukrainian armed forces units to a distance that would make it impossible to fire on populated areas using artillery and all types of multiple launch rocket systems.”

    “Third, allow for full and objective international monitoring of compliance with the ceasefire and monitoring of the situation in the safe zone created by the ceasefire.”

    “Fourth, exclude all use of military aircraft against civilians and populated areas in the conflict zone.”

    “Fifth, organise the exchange of individuals detained by force on an all for all basis without any preconditions.”

    “Sixth, open humanitarian corridors for refugees and for delivering humanitarian cargoes to towns and populated areas in Donbass ­ Donetsk and Lugansk Regions.”

    “Seventh, make it possible for repair brigades to come to damaged settlements in the Donbass region in order to repair and rebuild social facilities and life-supporting infrastructure and help the region to prepare for the winter.”
    ——————–
    Putin’s peace plan will not doubt fall on deaf ears, war is the order of the day for NATO.
    ——————-
    http://www.rense.com/general96/putinsukraine.html

  23. nevermind, Scotland will be free

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:29 pm

    Whilst NATO is supporting Iraq and making pledges to train their soldiers, Ukraine is becoming the Cinderella not to be touched. Proshenko’s visit with lots of handshaking and covert actions to help him stay in power, is a smokescreen for inaction.

    Estonias population is half Russian and who am I to determine the course of their countries development, all I know is that there are quiet a few working here, will they be persuaded by a Russian invasion to go back and fight for Estonia?
    or will this be young boys and girls who after being beaten into submission durimng basic training then get dispatched to fight Putin for Estonia’s king and country?
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/rosneft-head-igor-sechin-speaks-about-sanctions-and-ukraine-a-989267.html
    .

  24. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:32 pm

    Seumas Milne agrees with you.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/03/nato-peace-threat-ukraine-military-conflict

    Private Eye printed the first few lines of this, apparently approvingly:

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/31-08-2014/128411-ukraine_existential_crisis-0/

    Like an aging drag queen who can no longer make a living from dressing up in skirts and parading onstage in disguise, today, no amount of make-up can hide what NATO is, and has always been: a wolf in sheep’s clothing, living a pack mentality, eternally looking for a new lamb to slaughter. Ukraine is its raison d’être, the chance for survival in an existential crisis.

    For many years, NATO has been looking for something to do, like an odd-job man living in a deserted ghost town, like a skilled factory worker in a robotized plant, like an aging and unemployable drag queen who has gone to seed and whose pot belly turns her into the subject of ridicule when she tries to stuff it into a skirt, these days playing to bawling audiences of drunks.

    When the Warsaw Pact voluntarily dissolved in 1991, NATO gave assurances that it would not encroach eastwards.

    And here was its quandary: while the Soviet Armed Forces were essentially defensive, NATO’s have always been offensive. So unless it broke its promise, lied and moved eastwards, where was NATO’s future, and how to guarantee the livelihoods of the thousands of administrative staff in its ranks, making a comfy living as the cutting edge of the arms lobby, controlled by the Pentagon?

    Like an aging drag queen who can no longer make a living from dressing up in skirts and parading onstage in disguise, today, no amount of make-up can hide what NATO is, and has always been: a wolf in sheep’s clothing, living a pack mentality, eternally looking for a new lamb to slaughter. Ukraine is its raison d’être, the chance for survival in an existential crisis.

    For many years, NATO has been looking for something to do, like an odd-job man living in a deserted ghost town, like a skilled factory worker in a robotized plant, like an aging and unemployable drag queen who has gone to seed and whose pot belly turns her into the subject of ridicule when she tries to stuff it into a skirt, these days playing to bawling audiences of drunks.

    When the Warsaw Pact voluntarily dissolved in 1991, NATO gave assurances that it would not encroach eastwards.

    And here was its quandary: while the Soviet Armed Forces were essentially defensive, NATO’s have always been offensive. So unless it broke its promise, lied and moved eastwards, where was NATO’s future, and how to guarantee the livelihoods of the thousands of administrative staff in its ranks, making a comfy living as the cutting edge of the arms lobby, controlled by the Pentagon?

    The fact that this is by the insane and possibly pseudonymous Tim Bancroft-Hinchey need not detract from the resonance of the epithets. It’s even partially true. It might, however, remind us that one aim of each side’s propaganda is to make the other lose faith in its own institutions.

    Personally, I’d be very cautious about abandoning the NATO concept without some alternative and viable means of putting out European brushfires and deterring Moscow from leaking through vulnerable borders; this would require far more coordination and agreement among the European states than they have shown lately.

  25. “The major tragedy of NATO wars has been the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and ISIS (or ISIL) plus extremist Muslims who wish to impose Sharia law, not just in the middle east but all over the world. In that respect their ambitions are no different from the organisation that created them.”

    And you don’t think that the involvement of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or Russia in Chechenya had any impact on Islamic fundamentalism. And of course the main trigger in Osama Bin Laden turning against the US and the West was because of their involvement, at the behest of Saudi Arabia, in dealing with your friend’s invasion of Kuwait.

  26. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:34 pm

    Sorry- seem to have pasted the Pravda.ru piece twice. Only one copy required!

  27. As ESLO points out, the perspective of those directly threatened by Putin is very different. Ukrainians look with increasing envy on their western neighbors receiving NATO support – Poland, Estonia etc. As for Putin’s peace plan, it is really an annexation plan. Peace – at a price. Who pays – Ukrainians. Makes sense doesn’t it, so long as you aren’t one yourself.

    This is still relevant:
    http://www.willzuzak.ca/lp/lawton01.html

  28. “And you don’t think that the involvement of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or Russia in Chechenya had any impact on Islamic fundamentalism.”

    Regarding Afghanistan if you had studied the history of when Kabul called in the Soviet Union to defend attacks from Muslim fundamentalists in 1979 you would not have made such a stupid statement. At the time girls were being educated with boys in Afghan schools and it was the west that armed the Mujahadin in its ideological effort to contain the spread of Russian influence. After that fundamentalism ruled thanks to your lot.

  29. YouKnowMyName

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:53 pm

    @ESLO “that the involvement of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or Russia in Chechenya had any impact on Islamic fundamentalism”

    there have long been claims that both the wars mentioned above followed skilful US ‘agent provocateur’ work; which I considered unreasonable & unthinkable until (as part of the planned run-up to the Ukrainian Nuland Coup d’état) Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia mentioned this to Putin

    “As an example, I can give you a guarantee to protect the Winter Olympics in the city of Sochi on the Black Sea next year. The Chechen groups that threaten the security of the games are controlled by us”

    Why is it only NATO member Turkey that seems to arrest its parallel/Deep-State/Dark-Forces?

  30. republicofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 12:54 pm

    In a significant escalation of European sanctions on Moscow, France has announced that it will be suspending the controversial delivery of a state-of-the-art €600m warship to the Russian navy.
    —————————–
    After an emergency meeting of the national defence council, President François Hollande said that “conditions do not today exist” for the delivery of the first of two Mistral helicopter carriers this autumn. He described the latest developments in eastern Ukraine as “grave”.
    —————————

    Russia has paid for the ship and Russian sailors are already training aboard the vessel in St Nazaire on the French Atlantic coast. Until tonight, France had stoutly resisted pressure from the United States and its EU partners to suspend its delivery. Mr Hollande had previously insisted that the handover would go ahead next month, but that the delivery of a second ship next year would depend on Moscow’s behaviour in the Ukraine crisis.
    —————————
    The recent evidence of escalating Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine has forced Mr Hollande’s hand. In return, France will expect other EU countries, including Britain, to drop their objection to sanctions on Russia which might hurt their own domestic economies.
    ——————————-
    Russia has paid for the ships, but now France and Hollande has kowtowed to the USA, along with the UK and other EU countries, the US has to much power in NATO and the EU. A radical change is required in both.

  31. nevermind, Scotland will be free

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:02 pm

    “Personally, I’d be very cautious about abandoning the NATO concept without some alternative and viable means of putting out European brushfires and deterring Moscow from leaking through vulnerable borders; this would require far more coordination and agreement among the European states than they have shown lately.”

    Well Ba’al, herin lies the quandrary. A EU peace and defence force should have been set up immediately the warsaw pact disbanded, instead it was argued that NATO can do both, police peace and fight in wars. By its actions it has shown this to be wrong. It has followed a bastard neocon agenda and lied to the world, as you rightly pointed out.

    Could one trust to put the OSCE in charge of developing a European peace and defence charter?

  32. republicofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:04 pm

    13 US Activists Arrested for Protesting US Senators’ Unquestioning Support of Israel
    ——————————-
    Two New Jersey senators were the subject of a protest, last Tuesday, which called for an end to what they termed “a blank check for Israel’s crimes”. 13 of the dozens of protesters who participated in the action were arrested for an act of civil disobedience by staging a sit-in at the office.
    —————————–
    New Jersey Senator Robert Menendez, the co-author of a July Resolution (Senate Resolution 498) that offered full and complete support for Israel’s actions in Gaza, was one of the targets of the protest.
    ————————–

    The other was New Jersey Senator Cory Booker, the top recipient of campaign and other contributions from the Zionist lobbying group known as the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

    Booker also faced protests when he traveled to Oregon last week to speak at a fundraising dinner for Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley, also an unquestioning supporter of Israeli policies.
    ———————————

    Steven Shalom, who writes for the Mondoweiss blog, said about Tuesday’s protest: “The U.S. Senate has played a shameful role during the recent Israeli assault on Gaza, twice voting 100-0 to give its full support to Israel, saying nothing about its violations of international humanitarian law (indeed, condemning the United Nations’ Human Rights Council for deigning to investigate war crimes), nothing about the blockade of Gaza, and nothing about the occupation, while promising Israel still more weapons.
    ———————————–
    It seems not all Americans, are oblivious to Washington’s blatant support of Israels genocide in Gaza, more needs to be done to halt the atrocities.

  33. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:04 pm

    And you don’t think that the involvement of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or Russia in Chechenya had any impact on Islamic fundamentalism. (He didn’t say that. I think your mentor would have used a question mark there, ESLO. Slap wrist)

    The Soviets were doing moderately well against a fairly incoherent Afghan resistance, until the US armed it and encouraged fundamentalist outfits to take the lead. Had the Russians succeeded, Afghanistan would have remained a Muslim country, like other Muslim FSU states, with various degrees of enthusiasm, but at least not prey to the decadent West. They’d have eventually returned to fighting each other and growing poppies. The Taleban weren’t bothering anyone else when USUK invaded – on the very shaky pretext that AQ had been given sanctuary there – the invasion not only gave them a reason to exist, but some seriously hot propaganda to sell the rest of the Muslim world.

    I actually agreed with our intervention if Afghanistan. The selling point for me was the prospect, dangled by Tony Blair in front of the Commons, of severely damaging the heroin trade.

    Didn’t happen. More revenue for the fundies…

  34. Republic of Scotland

    I certainly would not agree Putin’s “peace plan”. To withdraw the Ukrainian army and allow access to Russian “repair brigades”. I think a three year old would see through that one.

    Nevermind I think you are going a very dangerous route if you start accepting Putin’s view that the existence of Russian-speaking minorities are legitimate grounds for annexation.

    I think a stepping up of the OSCE would be very good move.

  35. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:14 pm

    Sorry, Nevermind, I can’t separate defending peace from fighting wars in my head. When push comes to shove they are the extremes of a spectrum – all of which needs to be covered as flexibly as possible. Think Ribbentrop – Molotov. One minute Molotov’s heaving a sigh of relief – peace preserved – the next, half the Wehrmacht is following most of the Luftwaffe into Mother Russia.

  36. Ba’al Zevul

    I am not arguing about the involvement of the US in funding the Afghan mujahedeen – but if you think that without that the Soviets would have succeeded in Afghanistan you are out of line with history and also what contemporary observers such as Robert Fisk say. There are a lot of factors contributing to the rise of the Islamists – the kneejerk response here of blaming it all on the US/UK/Israel is I’m afraid naïve in the extreme.

    And yes I agree there should have been a questionmark.

  37. Who do you propose an independent Scotland should enter into defence alliances with if not England & Wales / UK and / or NATO?

  38. When I was in Estonia in the Soviet era (1980) it was in advance of its Russian neighbours and there were lots of big houses and money. It was where many of the Politburo had dachas. I doubt anything really changed when it was granted independence from Russia. I doubt that Russia wants it back as it never belonged in the first place. However Estonia does not need to have NATO bases on its soil. And it is down to its elected government to tell the US (NATO), should it choose, to get off its soil. I doubt the present government will.

    However there are examples where this has been done. President Rafael Correa told the Yanks they could have a base in Ecuador if Ecuador could have one in Miami which he mentioned in an interview with Julian Assange. And however much Karimov is despised, and quite rightly so, he instructed the Yanks to remove their military base in Uzbekistan. So it only needs governments to do the right thing and make the world a safer place. Removing NATO bases should be on the manifesto of every party until they are gone.

  39. republicofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:33 pm

    I certainly would not agree Putin’s “peace plan”. To withdraw the Ukrainian army and allow access to Russian “repair brigades”. I think a three year old would see through that one.

    Nevermind I think you are going a very dangerous route if you start accepting Putin’s view that the existence of Russian-speaking minorities are legitimate grounds for annexation.

    I think a stepping up of the OSCE would be very good move.
    —————————
    Craig.

    Do you agree with the first six points of the plan, secondly I don’t see NATO offering a counter proposal, as for the seventh point, I take your point, but if Ukraine does experience severe winter this year, and many old folk or children die due to it, who in your opinion will be to blame?.

  40. ” if you had studied the history of when Kabul called in the Soviet Union”

    Just like when their puppets called them in to Hungary and Czechoslovakia – please stop re writing history – the puppets were not popular with the local population as you know all too well.

  41. Mr Goss

    Do you think Robert Fisk who was in Afghanistan at the time was lying about what he saw?

  42. ESLO gets it wrong on Afghanistan: the US was arming the extremists, before Russia became militarily involved, US supplied portable anti-aircraft weaponry played a huge role. On Chechnya too the extremism was very a much a western and Saudi created problem, there had been little or no oppression of the predominantly Muslim republics or that religion’s followers under the Soviet regime, or its successors. As others have pointed out in both these cases; you’re wilfully wrong or misinformed too, on Kuwait I’m afraid, Kuwait had itself invaded Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war, moving its border into Iraq by more than 900 miles and stealing oil from Iraq’s Rumalia oil field. Surprised to see ESLO takes the word of western puppet Osama BL, to support his reasoning, but maybe not so unlikely bedfellows. Western puppets, both. He’s like Rip van Winkle wakening up, unaware the world has changed whilst he dozed over long, and mainstream media narratives such as he once and still does swallow whole, are met, deservedly, by the rest of the world with contempt and derision.

    Wakey Wakey ESLO, it’s 2014. What cave have you been hiding in… Tora-Bora?

  43. “I doubt anything really changed when it was granted independence from Russia.”

    I went there in 1992 and last year – believe me an awful lot has changed, and nearly entirely for the better.

  44. jjboulasjjb@mm.es

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:40 pm

    Hi Craig,
    Regarding the Ukraine situation, whatever the “evils” of Putin may be, there is a concerted MSM effort to demonize him well above what the proven intervention of Russia in Ukraine warrants. The MSM is rife with distorsions, exagerations and outright lies, together with a very unhealthy anti Putin histeria that to me shows that they have been taking the cue from above.
    Do not forget that all this situation has a lot to do with NATO eastwards expansion and, in my view, the fact that Putin has demonstrated he is an “unreliable” ally. Unrealiable as in not taking his orders from the white house when it matters: Georgia, Syria and now Ukraine.
    And do not understimate the Russio-filia of russian speakers not only in the Ukraine, but also in the baltic republics.

  45. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:41 pm

    I said *if* the Soviets had succeeded. If they hadn’t, the Afghans would probably have returned to their extremely harsh but occasionally fun traditions. The Soviets might have imported some Russians, assuming they could find any willing to go, had they succeeded, and it is not inconceivable that improvements could have been made to the economy that did not involve addiction. They might have translocated some Afghans, who would have probably been rather surprised to find that Soviet life was an improvement on Afghan conditions. This seems to have worked for the USSR in the ‘Stans.

    Chechnya was more like Northern Ireland in concept. The religious radicalism was not an inseparable feature from the rebellion, but an adjunct. I agree, bombing Grozny flat was probably not a lasting answer to the problem, but it didn’t half quieten it down. And was then a handy atrocity to cite when recruiting in the mosques.

  46. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 1:45 pm

    …And was then a handy atrocity to cite when recruiting in the mosques….

    As has been practically every intervention by US-led coalitions in the ME and Maghreb ever since…back to the beginning.

  47. Tony M

    Could we have your history stories in respect of Stalin’s terror, the Holodomor, Hungary in 1956, the Prague Spring, Solidarity – I’m sure that we are keen to have the full set of fairy tales. As for Afghanistan and Chechenya I think I will rely in Fisk and Politovskaya, and my Russian relatives for the moment – ever been to a Russian cemetery at Easter and talked to the relatives of those who died in those wars, I thought not.

  48. “I went there in 1992 and last year – believe me an awful lot has changed, and nearly entirely for the better.”

    Mandy Rice Davies made the Oxford Dictionary of Qquotations when she responded to a similar statement.

  49. “I think I will rely in Fisk and Politovskaya, and my Russian relatives for the moment”

    Would they be related to Resident Dissident’s Russian relatives by any chance?

  50. Just a teeny bit of background reading – the Wikileaks Cablegate archive on “NATO expansion”, 2,811 cables:

    http://search.wikileaks.org/advanced?q=NATO+expansion&exclude_words=&words_title_only=&words_content_only=&publication_type%5B%5D=2&sort=0#results

    and on Anders Fogh Rasmussen, 111 cables (including the one revealing the corruption behind his getting the job):

    http://search.wikileaks.org/advanced?q=Anders+Fogh+Rasmussen&exclude_words=&words_title_only=&words_content_only=&publication_type%5B%5D=2&sort=0#results

  51. Would they be related to Resident Dissident’s Russian relatives by any chance?

    Yes – taken you rather a long time to work that out hasn’t it – but then you were never that smart.

  52. jjboulas

    You are wrong on the Russophilia of Russian speakers outside Russia. A very large number of Russian speaking Balts have taken advantage of the tremendous opportunity to move and work around the EU, not least the UK. You are very very wrong if you think they would prefer a Russian standard of living. While in Ukraine a large majority of native Russian speakers regard themselves as ethnically Ukrainian not ethnically Russian.

  53. “Would they be related to Resident Dissident’s Russian relatives by any chance?

    Yes – taken you rather a long time to work that out hasn’t it – but then you were never that smart.”

    You forget it was me who outed you, and it seems you never forgave me. Pretty smart eh? So now are you not ashamed of all that self-congratulatory nonsense and praise between Resident Dissident and ESLO? Who could trust such a split-personality to say anything verging on the truth? By the way, does your boss know you’re posting comments here?

  54. So now that we have NATO out of the closet, where is the phantom-like evidence there is Russian troops fighting in Ukraine? Obama says he has evidence, just like that of MH17, but where oh where, is it? Is it possible the heavy US hand of NATO has been prevaricating so much they don’t recognize the truth anymore? ‘Natch.

  55. Ben

    There really is no doubt there have been Russian troops fighting in Ukraine. Quite a few of them have been captured.

  56. nevermind, Scotland will be free

    4 Sep, 2014 - 2:28 pm

    “Nevermind I think you are going a very dangerous route if you start accepting Putin’s view that the existence of Russian-speaking minorities are legitimate grounds for annexation.”

    Far from accepting such notion, I merely pointed out facts, that this is used everywhere in many occaisions and has been for considerable time.
    Grenadas rescuemission springs to mind. Israel’s zionist zeal also will intervene abroad on their own behalf, lawfull or not, come what may.
    Any rescue mission, for whatever reason, and without regard to the existing civilian populus, to get your own out, Vietnam, Lebanon, but also Afghanistan.

    Estonias minority languages are as much German, some swedish, as they are Russian and Estonian comprises of a considerable low saxon vocabulary, that does not give us westerners the right to site military hardware in defence of our language, does it, so the argument falls, agreed. But the facts are stark, we all will do it to a certain extend.

    Putin is popular, we have to face it, shrewd,scrupelous, informed and biased towards oligarchs, that way he can get away with his own nestegging, but does that mean we have to fight him over Ukraine’s resources?

    Russia is doing what Isis is doing on our behalf, tearing the fabric of borders to pieces. Russias 1950’s agreements on borders with Ukraine were never ratified by both parliaments and the pickyour nose lines in the sand are equally fraud/ght.

    I’m for protecting minorities rights in a mutually inclusive just society, and for people’s right to Independence, should they so decide. Swinging both ways just doesn’t work, there is no moral high ground, not here and not in Russia.

  57. Craig; Yes, nine soldiers captured. You may laugh when Putin says they wandered in error, but pictures and video of a massive invasion are missing. I hope you’re not suggesting the hype hasn’t been driving the news of imminent russian invasion these past months.

  58. ‘There really is no doubt there have been Russian troops fighting in Ukraine. Quite a few of them have been captured.’

    Quite- and those who were captured were later exchanged for a larger number of Ukrainian soldiers who, in the Beeb’s immortal words ‘strayed’ into Russian territory in order to ‘avoid’ the conflict, ie deserted. Funny how the Beeb couldn’t apply the correct word to the Ukrainian soldiers actions, as to do so would have told the truth about the state of morale in Kiev’s army, a large cohort of whom have no interest in blasting their slavic brothers in the Donbass to kingdom come.

  59. Does the US pay Britain to have its bases here? If so, how much.

    Thirty years ago, they did pay. The amount was one of the two biggest contributions to British invisible exports, the other being insurance. The amount was published in official statistics. If it wasn’t for a positive balance in invisible exports, the British trade balance would have been heavily in the red.

    So – do they pay now? Even professional campaigners against the US military presence in Britain don’t know the answer, nowadays.

  60. Personally I doubt that they do pay nowadays. It would be interesting to know when the payments stopped.

  61. Dave Lawton

    4 Sep, 2014 - 2:50 pm

  62. John Goss

    You still don’t get it do you? You outed no one.

  63. We might remember the correlation between the US having ‘no boots on the ground’ in Iraq, means that one-thousand ‘advisors’ do not qualify as troops. and the massive presence of Russian troops in the East.

    What’s good for the goose….

  64. Dave Lawton

    4 Sep, 2014 - 3:00 pm

    Craig; It is most likely the Russian troops wandered over the border in error. When I was living in a farmhouse in wild and woolly Wales I had a troop of SAS soldiers wander out of the forest onto my land trying to find their way home.

  65. Could NATO be called to account for the human tragedy in E. Ukraine? Could the ICC subpoena that corrupted body before the Hague?

    http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20140902&id=17896457

  66. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 3:10 pm

    No guarantee of free university education under Labour says Jim Murphy
    ——————————-
    Scottish Labour MP Jim Murphy has refused to confirm that free university education will remain, if Labour is returned to power under devolution.

    Murphy, who was appearing in a televised debate on Scottish independence, was asked whether a Labour Government at Holyrood would continue the policy of free university education.

    A clearly uncomfortable Murphy refused to answer, saying only that the policy would be revealed in Scottish Labour’s manifesto for the 2016 Holyrood elections.

    He said: “Our party will set out its manifesto at the next election. This is much more important than one manifesto or one election.”
    ———————–

    Remember Johann Lamont’s something for nothing comment.
    ———————-

    read more.

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9690-no-guarantee-of-free-university-education-under-labour-says-jim-murphy

  67. @LaGuerre, anent “Nobody had the right to leave” Fortunately that at least has changed. See Article 13 in the NATO Charter, to which the Scottish will want to turn when they gain their independence. A straightfoward notice of denunciation, wait a year, then you’re out.

  68. Just in time…another Scot Indy thread ahead.

  69. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 3:38 pm

    Relations between the OSCE and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) have been crucial in developing the security architecture of post-Cold War Europe. Since the beginning of the Helsinki process, NATO has significantly contributed to the debate within the CSCE/OSCE on developing the OSCE Security Model. NATO’s important role in promoting security in Europe is emphasized in a number of OSCE documents, such as the 2003 OSCE Strategy to Address Threats to Security and Stability in the 21st Century.
    —————————–

    After September 11, relations have continued to expand, reflecting the new focus on agendas set by the OSCE participating States at the recent meetings of the OSCE Ministerial Council and by the NATO Member States at the NATO Istanbul Summit. The Istanbul Summit Communiqué states that “NATO and the OSCE have largely complementary responsibilities and common interests, both functionally and geographically.
    ——————————-

    NATO will continue to further develop co-operation with the OSCE in areas such as conflict prevention, crisis management and post-conflict rehabilitation.”
    —————————–
    There are 57 members of the OSCE, and according to the above statement taken from their site, they are very close to NATO and have common goals, Hmm! What exactly is NATO’s goal at the moment.?

  70. In the ritual ceremonies of Gorsedd Beirdd Ynys Prydain at the National Eisteddfod of Wales the cry goes out from the Archdruid “A oes heddwch?” Is there peace? and the crowd respond “Heddwch!” There is peace. Sadly this year this seems to be even more deluded than usual with NATO trampling on the vineyard of pacificism that is Wales.

    So, NATO, get the hell out of Wales, please.

    Scotland, say YES, and Cymru, deffrowch o’th gwsg hir! Cherish the hen iaith and demand your freedom.

  71. ELSO ; “And of course the main trigger in Osama Bin Laden turning against the US and the West was because of their involvement, at the behest of Saudi Arabia, in dealing with your friend’s invasion of Kuwait”

    More complete rubbish from ELSO/ResDes, it’s well known that it was the Israeli attack on Beirut that turned OBL against the West;

    “In 2004, Osama bin Laden claimed that the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Centre were motivated by the Siege of Beirut in 1982, maintaining: ‘I couldn’t forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere.”

    http://www.kent.ac.uk/english/radicaldistrust/projects/siege-of-beirut/

  72. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 3:51 pm

    The International Organization for Migration (IOM) and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) are important partners of the OSCE, and regular participants in the annual Tripartite process between the UN, Council of Europe and OSCE.
    ———————————
    The CEO of the Red Cross and other senior administrators receive obscene salaries and other massive perks, all of which are paid directly from the man/woman in the street’s direct contributions to these supposed ‘good causes’.

    In 2012, the salary of the president, Marsha Evans was $651,957 per annum and the total revenue of the Red Cross was well in excess of $3bn per annum (three billion dollars!).
    ———————————
    When questioned on why millions of dollars weren’t donated to the 9/11 liberty fund the head of the Red Cross gave this reply.
    —-
    The then Red Cross President Dr. Bernadine Healy arrogantly responded when accused of withholding of funds by stating, “The Liberty Fund is a war fund. It has evolved into a war fund. We must have blood readiness. We must have the ability to help our troops if we go into a ground war. We must have the ability to help the victims of tomorrow.”
    ————–
    http://chrisspivey.org/john-hamer-charities/

  73. It’s somewhat disturbing that OSCE and NATO are such butt-buddies, RoS. OSCE has been doing some good and showing integrity. Cross-contamination is an issue.

  74. RoS, the NATO/OSCE relationship is indeed complementary. OSCE came out of the Helsinki Final Act and it reflects that in its aquis. Basically the division of labor is, NATO shits all over human rights and OSCE pulls them out and cleans them off.

    http://www.austria.org/human-rights/hr-and-the-osce

  75. “You outed no one.”

    Even when you’ve been shown to be untrustworthy, a liar and a homo-sycophant, you’re still in denial.

  76. John Goss

    Let me spell it out for you stupid: I am related to Resident Dissident we are not the same person. Though perhaps you should explain why I should account for myself to a gutter creature such as yourself or put up with your garbage?

  77. ESLO/Resident Dissident, you’re so up yourself you’re starting to believe your own shit.

  78. Moderator

    Do I have to put up with such abuse from John Goss.

  79. Republiofscotland

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:44 pm

    It’s somewhat disturbing that OSCE and NATO are such butt-buddies, RoS. OSCE has been doing some good and showing integrity. Cross-contamination is an issue.
    —————-
    Ben, the OSCE are in league with just about every European body, the US is also a member of the OSCE, you can’t honestly say that NATO, don’t influence the decisions of the OSCE.
    ————————–
    http://www.osce.org/networks/111486

  80. jjboulasjjb@mm.es

    4 Sep, 2014 - 4:58 pm

    Craig,

    Ethnic russians in the baltic state may apreciate the increase in standart of life or otherwise, but they oftentimes look back into the soviet times with rose-tinted glases. For example they tend to admire Gorvachev and despise the drunken Yelstin, which they blame (righly) of selling out to the west.
    I am not making it up, neither I have read about it in some blog or the other. I know a number of baltic fellas of russian descent and they are all like that. They are migtly pissed of at what they see as disgusting anti-russian propaganda in places like the Beeb. Moreover, most ethnic russians in the baltics tend to ridicule baltic-state nationalism as a 11th hour fade.
    About Ukraine I recognise I am extrapolating somehow. But then there is a strong Russian ethnic element in east Ukraine. All russians I know are very nice people, but become red-army like fanatics when it comes to percieved agresion.

  81. When I saw the headlines Celebrity Hacks, I thought for a minute that the “IS” had got themselves a scarlet Johannsen or such for their next hacking enactment. But talking of executions in the USA’s “theatres” of war (you have to laugh at their choice of terms (or you would if it weren’t all so tragic)), there have undeniably been brutal summary executions carried out there, though not at the hand of “IS” puppets so much as that of their puppetmasters on the DC links or sprawled at their games consoles in Creech.

    Such was the fate, for instance, of 68-year-old Mamana Bibi, gathering vegetables from the family plot in Ghundi Kala village one sunny afternoon when she was torn to pieces by President Obama, while her grandchildren looked on. Nabeela, aged 8, says: “I wasn’t scared of drones before, but now when they fly overhead I wonder, will I be next?”

  82. “Moderator

    Do I have to put up with such abuse from John Goss.”

    Yep. Here is the profile. Early in the morning between 7 am and 8 am you have regularly posted comments as Resident Dissident, likewise from about 7.30 pm to 11 pm, at which time I suspect you go to bed. In between these hours from approximately 10 am to 5 pm you post comments as ESLO. I cannot recall any exceptions except at weekends when you are Resident Dissident. Then there was the slip-up where you forgot which persona you were. It is not Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, but Mr Hyde I and Mr Hyde II.

  83. The Russian armed forces are far more formidable than acknowledged here

    They have 2,562 active main battle tanks and 12,500 in reserve.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces

    By comparison the British army is reducing to an almost comic 156 main battle tanks. Despite massive (incompetent and poor value) military spending here. Such is the genius of our governments.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-army-reduced-to-one-single-tank-regiment-9644238.html

  84. Mochyn 69

    deffrowch o’th gwsg hir

    Tecwyn Ifan fan?

  85. The West started this destruction of Ukraine according to Victoria Nuland at a cost of $5 billion to arrange a coup!

    Its all about the dollar – banking & global American Hegemony

  86. “In between these hours from approximately 10 am to 5 pm you post comments as ESLO.”

    Well there goes one theory crackpot.

  87. I did write approximately. But never the two (Resident Dissident and ESLO together) up to now except when you were using the same IP address.

  88. Al Milliner

    4 Sep, 2014 - 7:04 pm

    ESLO 6:24pm

    LOL!

  89. We’ll give the corporate media time to promulgate the “ISIS is an existential threat” meme, before we “reluctantly” start bombing. And then we’ll slide into hitting one or two non-ISIS Syrian targets. Once we have enough assets in the area, the US/UK presence on Syrian soil will increase, as we hunt down those pesky dehumanised beasts. That’s how it’ll go down.

    The goal is Syria. Same as it ever was.

    Meanwhile, The Telegraph are today reporting more US-driven sanctions on Russia just as Russia and Ukraine seem to be reaching some kind of ceasefire agreement. This is what the US have done: repeatedly scupper any chance of a truce.

    Where is all the evidence to prove that Russia/militia shot down flight MH17? Why do the supposed villains keep asking for Kiev and Washington to produce the evidence?

    The corporate media no longer give a toss about MH17. The good little doggies don’t ask awkward questions.

  90. You really are quite pathetic Mr Goss.

  91. Like United Nations, NATO was also created to maintain western colonization of the third world nations as an act of “humanitarianism”.

    As far as Afghanistan is concerned, both India and Israel want NATO forces to stay put while Iran wants them to get the hell out of Afghanistan.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/12/04/tehran-wants-us-nato-out-of-afghanistan/

  92. Resident Dissident

    4 Sep, 2014 - 8:11 pm

    Hi ESLO, good job for Mr Goss that we are from a Yorkshire family rather than a Sicillian one!

  93. Only a few months ago the media were telling us that Iran was very bad indeed and that Syria’s Assad was practically the devil incarnate; indeed it seemed at times that we were being geared up to the possibility of war with them. Now we are being told that they are almost our allies against ISIS and others. Indeed just to make things interesting, we seem to have managed inadvertently to supply ISIS with its heavy weaponry.

    But it’s worse than that. Apart from nearly getting us into a war with Russia, the NeoCon agenda seems to include the development of a police state. Recent “Snowden” disclosures of some of GCHQ’s training material plainly shows that one of GCHQ’s objectives [and likely the other FYES organizations too] is to create ‘Cognitive Stress’ + ‘Physiological Stress’ + ‘Affective Stress’ in their victims. This is the role of a secret police; not that of an intelligence agency.

    This is NATO Now: It is the NeoCon agenda – extraordinarily Orwellian. You know: We always need enemies, but they change from day to day (2) We practice torture from Zersetzen to Waterboarding but pretend that we don’t (3) We are developing a secret police state but punish those (like Assange, Snowden) who tell us because we want to fool ourselves that it isn’t true.

    Why all this confusion? The answer, I think, is that the Neocons are confused and don’t know what they are doing – just like Europe’s diplomats and politicians 100 years ago in the run up to WW1. NATO, which used to have a purpose, is becoming a threat to our security.

  94. Ba'al Zevul (With Gaza)

    4 Sep, 2014 - 8:22 pm

    s for Afghanistan and Chechenya I think I will rely in (on) Fisk… (ESLO)

    But not for Israel, hey?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israels-land-for-lives-is-theft-pure-and-simple-9705378.html

    …an interesting precedent. If an innocent Israeli life – cruelly taken – is worth around 330 acres of land, then an innocent Palestinian life – equally cruelly taken – must surely equal the same. And if even half the 2,200 Palestinian dead of Gaza last month – and this is a conservative figure – were innocent, then the Palestinians presumably now have the right to take over 330,000 acres of Israeli land, in reality much more.

    Do the math, eh?

  95. Someone posted, probably here, this link, worth a read despite the gory title.

    http://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/22078/2/hitlers-shadow.pdf

    “The records are especially rich concerning Allied relationships with Ukrainian nationalist organizations after 1945. This section focuses on the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists under Stephen Bandera and the exile representation of the Ukrainian underground government (ZP/UHVR), which was dominated by Bandera’s one-time followers-turned-rivals, including Mykola Lebed.”

    “British Intelligence (MI6), however, was interested in Bandera. MI6 first contacted Bandera through Gerhard von Mende in April 1948. British operations through Bandera expanded. An early 1954 MI6 summary noted that, “the operational aspect of this [British] collaboration [with Bandera] was developing satisfactorily. Gradually a more complete control was obtained over infiltration operations and although the intelligence dividend was low it
    was considered worthwhile to proceed. Bandera was, according to his handlers, “a professional underground worker with a terrorist background […]”

    “When the Soviets reconquered East Galicia in November 1944, there were few Jews there left alive. But Maltz recorded that, “When the Bandera gangs seize a Jew, they consider it a prize catch. The ordinary Ukrainians feel the same way … they all want to participate in the heroic act of killing a Jew. They literally slash Jews to pieces with their machetes…”

    “Beginning in 1953 AERODYNAMIC began to operate through a Ukrainian study group under Lebed’s leadership in New York under CIA auspices, which collected Ukrainian literature and history and produced Ukrainian nationalist newspapers, bulletins, radio programming, and books for distribution in the Ukraine. In 1956 this group was formally incorporated as the non-profit Prolog Research and Publishing Association. It allowed the CIA to funnel funds as ostensible private donations without taxable footprints.”

    Prolog recruited and paid Ukrainian émigré writers who were generally unaware that they worked in a CIA-controlled operation. Only the six top members of the ZP/UHVR were witting agents. Beginning in 1955, leaflets were dropped over the Ukraine by air and radio broadcasts titled Nova Ukraina were aired in Athens for Ukrainian consumption. These activities gave way to systematic mailing campaigns to Ukraine through Ukrainian contacts in Poland and émigré contacts in Argentina, Australia, Canada, Spain, Sweden, and elsewhere. The newspaper Suchasna Ukrainia (Ukraine Today), information bulletins, a Ukrainian language journal for intellectuals called Suchasnist (The Present), and other publications were sent to libraries, cultural institutions, administrative offices and private individuals in Ukraine. These activities encouraged Ukrainian nationalism, strengthened Ukrainian
    resistance, and provided an alternative to Soviet media. In 1957 alone, with CIA support, Prolog broadcast 1,200 radio programs totaling 70 hours per month and distributed 200,000 newspapers and 5,000 pamphlets. In the years following, Prolog distributed books by nationalist Ukrainian writers and poets. One CIA analyst judged that, “some form of nationalist feeling continues to exist [in the Ukraine] and there is an obligation to support it as a cold war weapon.” The distribution of literature in the Soviet Ukraine continued to the end of the Cold War”

    Hate, especially this sort of virulent, insane hatred is not natural, it must be nurtured.
    Amazing to think when Atlee’s Labour government were introducing prescription charges, costs for glasses and dental work, in those late forties, when food was rationed when people froze to death in their homes, parts of British government were keeping some of what must have the worst of the worst war criminals in clover and in comfort, and indulging their fanaticism.

  96. @ESLO, You stated that the main trigger for OBL turning against the US was because of their involvement in the 1st Gulf War, per se, which is not accurate: he of course greatly resented the stationing of US troops on Holy Muslim soil during this time, but he mostly blamed the Saudi rulers themselves for allowing those “infidel” troops there in.

    Here are OBL own words about his own motivation, & about 9/11

    “And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed – when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the US sixth fleet”

    “As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way [and] to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/30/alqaida.september11

  97. “Hi ESLO, good job for Mr Goss that we are from a Yorkshire family rather than a Sicillian one!”

    How pathetic. Still keeping up the charade. Like I say so far up yourself you’re starting to believe your own shit. So they let you take a computer home. Or you’re using the same IP address again. Pathetic.

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