NATO – An Idea Whose Time Has Gone 169


In the past dozen years, the armed forces of NATO countries, whether operating under the NATO banner or in related ad-hoc coalitions, have killed many hundreds of thousands of people. Of those hundreds of thousands of people, only a few hundred at most ever had any connection to any attack on a NATO country.

Whatever modern NATO has become, a defensive alliance it is not; that fact is beyond rational dispute.

It is also the case that the situation in countries where NATO has been most active in killing people, including Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Pakistan, has deteriorated. It has deteriorated politically, economically, militarily and socially. The notion that NATO member states could bomb the world into good was only ever believed by crazed and fanatical people like Tony Blair and Jim Murphy of the Henry Jackson Society. It really should not have needed empirical investigation to prove it was wrong, but it has been tried, and has been proved wrong.

The NATO states as a group have also embarked on remarkably similar reductions in the civil liberties of their own populations during this period. NATO to me is symbolised by the fact that its Secretary General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, as Danish Prime Minister blatantly lied to the Danish parliament about Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction. When Major Frank Grevil released material that proved Rasmussen was lying, it was Grevil who was jailed for three years. In the United States, no CIA operative has been prosecuted for their widespread campaign of torture, but John Kiriakou is in jail for revealing it.

NATO’s attempt to be global arbiter and enforcer has been disastrous at all levels. Its plan to redeem itself by bombing the Caliphate in Iraq and Syria is a further sign of madness. Except of course that it will guarantee some blowback against Western targets, and that will “justify” further bombings, and yet more profit for the arms manufacturers. On that level, it is very clever and cynical. NATO provides power to the elite and money to the wealthy.

But what of Putin’s Russia, I hear you say? I am no fan of Putin – I think he is a nasty, dangerous little dictator. But little is the operative word.

Russia is not a great power. Its GDP is 10% of the GDP of the EU. Its economy is the same size as Italy’s. The capabilities of Russia’s armed forces are massively exaggerated by the security industry, including the security services, and by arms manufacturers. The entire area of Eastern Ukraine which Russia is disputing has a GDP smaller than the city of Dundee.

Russia is only any kind of “military threat” because of its nuclear arsenal. The way forward to peace is active international nuclear disarmament – and the existence of NATO is the greatest obstacle to that. The idea that almost the entire developed world needs to encircle and contain Russia with massive military threat, is as sensible as the idea that it needs to encircle the UK or France – both of which have substantially larger and more diversified economies than Russia and much larger and more technologically advanced arms industries.

NATO is by far the largest danger to world peace. It should be dissolved as a matter of urgency.


169 thoughts on “NATO – An Idea Whose Time Has Gone

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  • Ben

    “you search for yout evidence”

    Thanks for your worthwhile contributions…now fuck off for good.

  • John Goss

    “Clark is absolutely right about IP addresses being unique – which is of course why I don’t need to be convinced that I don’t share one with RD.”

    No, on checking it was your Resident Dissident persona that shared one with Anon. This covers the slip up. Bet you’re glad I reminded you of that. 🙂

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/six-more-years-of-tory-rule/#comment-447652

    Then there was Mary’s Love Child. And God knows how many more! Well God and you! 🙂

    Don’t forget to take your computer back to work. Or are you working from home this week?

  • John Goss

    “Since when has a statement from Mr Goss being considered as evidence for anything other than his own mental state”

    Cage rattled again. Feathers flying. Two parrots – one cage. A recipe for – answers please?

  • Tony M

    Breaking news from a NATO summit in Wales … LIVE updates

    9:20pm No one has seen David Cameron since he went to get his jammies from the car at 8:55

    9:30pm In Cameron’s absence, it is decided the British Isles should be depopulated in accordance with Plan B

    9:35pm Obama playing with his drones, accidentally nukes Winsconsin

    9:40pm David Cameron returns breathless, somewhat distressed, swears Alex Salmond was outside

    9:41pm All rush to the windows, a Yes sign has been erected on the lawn

    9:45pm Another group photo is needed, as the Dutch delegation were pulling silly faces in the last one

    10:00pm Cameron after a hot milk drink, falls asleep on Obamas lap

    10:04pm Merkel tells Hollande: “he who smelt it, dealt it”

    10:06pm France’s Francis Hollande is off again about the EU being Napoleon’s idea originally

    10:10pm Canadian Harper phones from New South Wales, Australia, apologising profusely for his absence, blames Putin

    10:15pm A impromptu seance is held to contact Ronald Reagan, Uncle Joe comes through instead

    10:25pm The lights have fused and in the spooky light of Tony Blair’s teeth they climb the stairs to bed

    … buffering

  • Jives

    Resident Dissident/ESLO

    BUSTED!!-yet again!

    Lollzzzzz.

    You’re so dumb you can’t even remember your own troll multiplicities!

    Your line manager must be soooooo disappointed in you.

    Pay docked?

    LOL!

  • John Goss

    Ben at 11.30 pm. That Elmer report is fascinating. It shows the corruption involved with siphoning the loan tranches offshore, Lagarre’s suspected criminal activities, the US controlling 40% of the IMF votes, Russia 2% and no veto, but what is most fascinating is that in its efforts to determine policy in Ukraine the IMF (and US) is prepared to lend money to a warring state with no guarantee of being paid back.

    “He added that for the first time in its history, the IMF was lending money to one side engaged in civil war.”

    Thanks for posting that.

  • ESLO

    Despite Mr Goss’s diversionary tactics and ad hominems of yesterday he cannot hide his pathetic justification for the Russian invasion of Afghanistan (supported by that other Putin puppet Tony M), which is almost up there with that he provided for the Holodomor. To this we can also add his promotion of Rothschild conspiracy/holocaust denial websites and his continued support for self confessed and convicted terrorists. While he is in such good form perhaps he might wish to take up my offer to Tony M of providing justifications for the Soviet invasions/interventions into Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland – and then he can move onto the rehabilitation of Uncle Joe (he might wish to refer to Uncle Vlad’s new school text books for help) – or perhaps he just accepts that Joe was a Rothschild who just muscled in on his glorious Soviet revolution. Let the tanks roll…………..

  • Macky

    ESLO; “Macky You made the accusation – you search for yout evidence”

    Well it took me some time, but it’s all there in the massive “Andy Myles” 26/03/14 Thread, and no wonder you didn’t want to find it yourself, as although yes the Mods didn’t confirm that the IP addresses were the same, they did confirm that you & Resident Dissident were both using the same email address, which is the same difference;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/andy-myles/comment-page-5/#comment-451040

    and as Clark pointed out “There is no such thing as a “very common e-mail address”. E-mail addresses have to be unique, obviously” (5/4/2014 10.31pm), plus there’s John pointing out that you answered on a question he posed to RD as you were RD but posted under ESLO;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/andy-myles/comment-page-3/#comment-450429

    Alhough a very long thread, it’s worth a looking through as it reveals a very sorry sordid saga indeed; Resident Dissident,yourself, & the Habba-Clown were all exposed as all using multiple sock-puppet ids, mostly to hurl vulgar abuse at other posters, but also to converse & back your own positions up by talking to yourselves ! 😀

    However the sweetest revelation, as least to me, was to remember that yours truly was probably one the instigating causes of this flushing out vile troll sock-puppeting ! 😀

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/andy-myles/comment-page-5/#comment-451221

  • ESLO

    “as although yes the Mods didn’t confirm that the IP addresses were the same, they did confirm that you & Resident Dissident were both using the same email address, which is the same difference;”

    No it isn’t – that is why the Mods confirmed that the IP addresses were different – as they can do now.

    The email addresses were the same as RD advised me to use the same made up email address in order to preserve anonymity

  • ESLO

    “mostly to hurl vulgar abuse at other posters”

    Did you feel the tiniest hint of hypocrisy when you wrote this?

    More diversionary tactics on behalf of you and your fellow tankie I note.

  • Macky

    ESLO; “Did you feel the tiniest hint of hypocrisy when you wrote this?

    More diversionary tactics on behalf of you and your fellow tankie I note.”

    LOL ! Your hypocritical alter ego also fell at this hurdle;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

    You two really are like two peas in the same pod ! 😀 The only vulgar abuse I’ve directed at anybody was just the other day, when the Habba-Clown effectively asked me to call him a lying scum, and I obliged, hardly the same as what you & your fellow trolls are always engaing in !

    Come back when you’ve stopped acting as a troll, if that’s at all possible !

  • ESLO

    So Macky you don’t want to behave like a troll and employ diversionary tactics. So please give your thoughts on whether the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justifiable on the pretext of an invasion, and whether the same justification can be used for the Soviet Union’s interventions in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland.

  • John Goss

    ESLO/Resident Dissident, have you got both computers with you? Is your boss on holiday? Are you working from home?

    Macky, nice bit of homework. I like the bit where this duplicitous character left the building in one persona for at least a fortnight after he was outed trying to think up an excuse for answering on behalf of another of his personas. It was feeble and unbelievable when it came. Just like now in fact. The history of lying and deceit and diversion is the key to the shameful and shameless split-personality. So now Resident Dissident and ESLO are relatives.

    Brothers?
    Cousins?
    Sisters under the skin?

    Answers on a postcard to youvebeenrumbled.com

  • Macky

    ESLO; “please give your thoughts on whether the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justifiable on the pretext of an invasion, and whether the same justification can be used for the Soviet Union’s interventions in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland”

    Sorry even if I wanted to, I can’t really indulge with your whatabouteries, as I’m packing right now for a long weekend, & not sure even if I’ll have WiFi, but to help you break the troll habit, try to remember that diverting discussions from salient points by using whataboutism is very, very trollish behaviour, and pass on this tip to your doppelganger ! 😀

  • ESLO

    Sorry even if I wanted to, I can’t really indulge with your whatabouteries

    Hardly whatabouteries – more events that actually happened.

    Big fail on your part I’m afraid.

  • ESLO

    So Mr Goss you don’t want to behave like a troll and employ diversionary tactics? So please give your thoughts on whether the the Soviet Union’s interventions in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland were justified on the grounds that they were invited in just like you argued for Afghanistan.

  • John Goss

    ESLO I won’t indulge you. Right now there is an organisation called NATO trying to make a similar mess in Europe as they have been doing in the middle east. The Soviet Union does not exist. Chatham House, NATO, Swedbank and other right-wing organisations funded the fascist coup in Ukrain since which time 2600 people have been killed, parts of Donetsk and Lugansk look like parts or Sirte and Fallujah. There is evidence of the use of white phosphorous, people were starving until Russia (without consent from Kiev) send in supplies on humanitarian grounds, and you want to talk about the history of the Soviet Union, holodomor, and other things which none of us can do anything about.

  • ESLO

    Mr Goss

    You raised the subject of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan – and then indulged in diversionary tactics. Perhaps the need for NATO is driven by the nature of the threat we face – given your previous and now documented support for the Stalinists, the authoritarian Putin and self confessed terrorists perhaps you are not the best person to offer a view on the nature of the current threats that we face.

  • John Goss

    “You raised the subject of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan – and then indulged in diversionary tactics.”

    Blatantly untrue, like most of the shit you write. You raised it as a diversionary tactic away from NATO (the on-topic subject). Like I say you’re so full of shit it spills over into every comment.

  • ESLO

    “You raised the subject of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan – and then indulged in diversionary tactics.”

    I stand corrected – you joined the debate on the subject with your pathetic justification for the Stalinists, which you were unable to defend and then covered your position by diversionary tactics. Not sure why you have this obsession with faeces on your part – must be something to do with the favourite position for your tongue in relation to your current hero.

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    ESLO

    Mr Goss has been shown to be a Soviet fellow-traveller. He has also been caught out in numerous errors of fact and inexactitudes, for which he of course never apologises (he just deviates and starts talking about something else). He is also not above the blatant lie.

    I’m slightly sorry to have to use the word, but he is scum.

  • ESLO

    Actually my comment on Afghanistan was in response to Mr Goss’s about the rise in Islamism all being down to NATO. Yet in his fantasy world I am the one who diverted the topic away from NATO – what he is really saying is that he will not countenance a challenge to his view that Islamism, as well as all the other wrongs in the world, are attributable to the US and its creature NATO. As a dyed in the wool Stalinist tolerance of other ideologically correct positions is not permitted.

  • ESLO

    Habba

    I not sure whether it is due to malevolence or ignorance – I used to think the latter, now I’m tending toward the former.

  • Elron

    Unfortunately there are a max of only 24-36 months before the various ‘markets’ in the West start folding. The ‘stimulus’ has been nothing more than rigging these markets to stave of the inevitable collapse and buy time to create the conditions for war against those threats to the dollar. The hysterical NATO rhetoric is to be fully expected, as is a hot war.

    It should not be needed to be said that under GW Bush the US removed the ‘no first use’ policy on nukes. The very real threat is that the US will start a conflict against Russia with a massive nuclear first strike.

  • ESLO

    Elron

    I look forward to you returning here in 37 months time to recant your ideology and apologise for your scaremongering. If you are right then none of us are likely to be here especially since I doubt Craig’s blog, let alone Craig, will be available in the bunker.

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    ESLO

    Over the months, this blog has frequently been the subject of comments predicting doom, downfall and catastrophe in the West/USA – sometimes of a military or social nature but more often of a financial one.

    On the assumption that those commenters live – despite some worrying signs of extra-terrestiality – in the same part of the world as we do, I’ve often wondered how they would feel – and more importantly, what they would do – if those prophesies came true. After all, I asssume they would also be affected.

    Would they grind their teeth and say it’s all for the greater good and the creation of a better, “saner” world? Would they become the leaders – minor leaders, to be sure – of the great proletarian revolution : a collection of mini-Excellecespierres? Or, having seen their dreams realised, would they emigrate to the BRICs?

    Just wonderin’, as California Haze would say!

  • ESLO

    Habba

    Perhaps they might just wonder as to why Western democracies always seem to ride all these crises and eventually come out better on the other side – and conversely why all the despotic regimes they favour usually collapse and disappear. But somehow I doubt it.

  • TonyF12

    Habbabkuk.

    In a way you pose a conundrum.
    Is it better to have a bank which rips you off, rather than no bank?
    Would it be better to have a gun-crazy corrupt police force than none at all?
    Is it more comfortable to be told lies than to be told nothing, let alone the truth?

    In the short term, all these options probably do make for a more ordered society so long as none of the above goes too far over the top and people do not get too upset, but none is ideal – nor sustainable in the long term.

    The state of the dollar has been a matter of concern for decades as the US prints ever more banknotes to pay for wars/weapons and to bail out bankers. So long as the dollar remains a reserve currency they can continue to print and spend up to quite a high figure. However if the petrodollar loses its status as more or less the only way countries buy/sell oil, then the dollar is vulnerable. Saddam and Gaddafi both tried to move away from the dollar and both became history. BRICS are looking at moving from the dollar and the heat is certainly on them – especially on Mr. Putin.

    I don’t think this petro-dollar migration is simply a ‘conspiracy theory’ blog topic. It is simply a slow burner. As the dollar loses its reserve status the only direction is American inflation which would throttle the economy.

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