We are directly responsible for the disasters in the Mediterranean. The bombing of Libya into failed state status is now coming back to haunt us. The ludicrous idea, propounded by Blair, Robert Cooper and the Henry Jackson Society, that you could improve dictatorial states by massive bombing campaigns that targeted their basic infrastructure, is now a total bust. Sadly so are Iraq and Libya, to the permanent detriment of many millions of people. We caused both the Islamic State and the Mediterranean boat disasters, and we caused them with bombs.
But the lack of any effective policing is only part of the problem. What makes people so desperate that they are prepared to give all of the small amount they own, to ruthless gangs, in exchange for a dreadful sea crossing with a one in ten chance of drowning? Most of the refugees are sub-Saharan African. We only see the European end of the saga, not the terrible conditions on the cross Saharan journeys that they start with.
There will be no security anywhere if the world does not address the terrible scourge of African poverty and under-development. That is a huge subject on which I have written extensively and worked much of my life, and I do not wish to open it here. But what it does show is the utter stupidity – inhumanity yes, but also stupidity – of UKIP in thinking that cutting development aid will increase the economic security of the UK.
See pics of 8 story WTC8, four walls STILL standing but a huge “bomb crater” in the MIDDLE, wtf, and no trace of the insides !!
Ad-hominen and insults from both Macky and John Goss, thereby exceeding my prediction. I bet this is a tactic recommended in the Russian government trolling manual.
From John Goss:
So, John; “their own people”, or the “Russian Empire’s” people?
Macky and John Goss, the resident Putinistas at Craig’s blog, quite happy to discredit this forum by encouraging any whacko conspiracy theory so long as it doesn’t cast Putin’s government in a bad light. Eager to smear and abuse any commenters who speak out against Putin’s government, just as Anon attacks anyone criticising Israel, and Habbabkuk attacks anyone and everyone at convenience and whim. All four also make useful contributions.
I do NOT support Nazis. I do NOT support arming, training, or sending armed forces to Ukraine by EITHER the “West” OR by the Russian government. I call for negotiation, tolerance and support of peaceful measures that help rather than hinder Ukraine’s civilian economy and population.
Clark, how can you not get it into your head that there is a Fascist government in Ukraine set up by a coup? Russia had nothing to do with it. Even after a history lesson you still cannot see .It is you who is discrediting the forum. You who issues the ad hominems.
Its really simple, who sniped 40 protesters and twenty cops at Maidan? And the devils like anon1 and habba will be in the open light.
Clark, I never used to see this in your comments. Now they are little different from the trolls. You constantly harp on about Putinitsas, about do I see myself as a propagandist for the Kremlin. Yesterday I came across an actual Kremlin site about President Putin so I checked it out to see who and what it is I am supposed to support.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/04/a-horror-we-made/#comment-521395
If you listen to yourself Clark calling me a Putinitsa is like me calling you an Obamaniac. I don’t. It would be an ad hominem.
We cannot agree on this issue because you have a pre-formed idea you will defend to the death despite never offering a valid argument in its defence. You cannot argue against the history I presented because there is no argument against it (though I concede it is basic). To make the statement:
“So, John; “their own people”, or the “Russian Empire’s” people?”
just shows how little of the history you had grasped. The year was 2014. Go back and check what happened in 1991 and then you answer the question yourself.
John Goss
So many times you have claimed here about Fascist government in Ukraine. You also claimed a lot about Nazis in power in Ukraine.
I ask you AGAIN. Can you please explain HOW do you distinguish Nazis from non Nazis? What makes you think that Yanukovich was more legitimate than Poroshenko?
Do you accept right of citizens to demonstrate against corrupt government?
Do you accept the right of such corrupt government to order to shoot such citizens?
Do you accept that once corrupt government has done so this government lost its legitimacy?
Do you accept the right of bigger and more powerful neighbour which by turn of global economic events (which shoot up oil and gas prices) have become extremely wealthy to meddle in the affairs of their smaller neighbours?
Do you accept that once former empire should still have a God given right to project its power and influence over its former colonies?
Do you accept that former empire had God given right to return its former colonies (or part of them)?
PLEASE answer to these questions.
John Goss
“Clark, how can you not get it into your head that there is a Fascist government in Ukraine set up by a coup? Russia had nothing to do with it.”
Brilliant again. Meddling in the Ukrainian affairs since Yushenko/Yanukovich elections. Constant gas blackmail. Support for Yanukovich who was clearly elected with Russian assistance and established the most corrupt government in post Soviet Ukraine.
No I cannot see anything that Russia had done to cause 2014 Ukrainian Revolution.
And yet again, what is definition of Fascists government in Ukraine for you?
Clark
Thank you for your words of encouragement. And even more so for that you can see bigger and clearer picture within being limited by “Russia vs West = Russia is good” cliché.
I do not support Zionist and Racially segregated state of Israel. But I strongly support right of Jews for their own statehood. The form of statehood must include all people living within its borders. It is unfortunate that after horrors of WWII Europeans encouraged Zionism to get rid of European Jews (those who have survived that horrors) and supported their idea of their historic state (which as a result dumped them to the far away land one of colonial outpost of Palestine). To be fair Jews who have lived there (before huge migration of European Jews) have suffered too being classed as second rate Jews “primitive almost like Arabs”. Some Zionist have claimed that only Judaism allowed these (local Palestinian Jews) not to turn into “animals like”.
I still blame cunning and deceiving policy of European leaders which encouraged huge migration of Jews across the continents and removed Jews issue from Europe and dumped it to Arabs.
If you read more on that matter bloody comrade Stalin was also very much into encouraging Zionism as he also had Jews issue and thought that he could influence new Jewish state via links with Soviet Jews. He also wanted part of Middle East and only when it became obvious that Israel was US oriented Soviets called them devils and broke all diplomatic relations with it.
Being Muslim by birth I also do not support Islamophobia but certain traditions and certain matters must be brought up and quite possibly criticised. Otherwise it is becoming biased to criticise everything except wrongdoing by Muslims.
“If you read more on that matter bloody comrade Stalin was also very much into encouraging Zionism as he also had Jews issue and thought that he could influence new Jewish state via links with Soviet Jews.”
You want to check that Resident Dissident and Habbabkuk are not around with statements like that! If I had made it I would be ridiculed as a Stalinist and Rothschild conspiracy theorist, except from the trolls it’s water off a duck’s back.
Tell me Uzbek, do you have a different version of history to the one I gave in an earlier comment?
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/04/a-horror-we-made/comment-page-2/#comment-521446
“And yet again, what is definition of Fascists government in Ukraine for you?”
The fascists in Ukraine are those who stole power from the legitimately elected government in a coup funded by the west. Yatsenyuk’s website is funded by NATO and Chatham House among others. Urmas Paet let it slip to Catherine Ashton that the coup was enabled not by legitimate protestors but some private soldiers strategically positioned among them who opened fire on both sides. Then, just as in Nazi Germany, they declared war on certain Ukrainian citizens, namely those who do not believe in the coup and who voted in a referendum to secede. Since coming to power this parliament has removed the rights of Communists (of which there are 2 million) removed the rights of opposition media to exist and removed the rights of individuals to distribute or listen to Russian news. Make no mistake, they are Fascists.
John, don’t waste your time; any rational person recognises bullshit propagators, even if the propagators are too stupid to know it themselves;
http://original.antiwar.com/Vladimir_Golstein/2015/04/08/politics-bullshit-and-ukraine/
Let them wallow in their delusional muck; continue posting comments for the more rational readers of this blog; the fools & knaves are the minority here even though they are the most obessive of posters.
Macky, I know you’re right. It just disturbs me that so few can see it for what it is. It make me think of Nazi Germany in the thirties. I have wondered from time to time how could the ordinary person in the street not see what was happening, when gypsies, Communists and Jews were disappearing before their eyes. It’s like the murders in Kiev hardly reported in our media. What is wrong? By the time they wake up it will be too late. The time to wake up is now.
It is not yet quite another horror we have made, though it is for some already. Ukraine can be saved. Not as it was. It can never go back to that. I warned of this early last year. We have to stop the Yanks marching its jackboots all over the world.
“Tanks? No thanks! Go home Yanks!”
http://www.itproportal.com/2015/04/22/courage-contagious-snowden-leaker-trend/ [news-source based in UK, London]
(*)http://www.lawfareblog.com/2015/04/keeping-track-of-the-us-intelligence-communitys-leakers/ [news-source based in United States, San Fran] – also has interesting articles on UK Army PLC following human rights law, in fact as GCHQ is also UK Military, does this imply further ECHR ‘problems’?
(Bruce Schneier is rarely wrong, he was until very recently the Chief Security Officer at British Telecom)
Horror related:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/sites/default/files/usa_crimes_and_impunity_report.pdf [news-source based in United States, Virginia]
YCNMIU department. . .
A Saudi-Arabian born, british living double-agent for MI5 recently recruiting in UK for Daesh/ ISIS, is this retired Professor making this up?
http://inthesetimes.com/article/17839/jihadis-invade-london [news-source based in United States, Minneapolis]
Finally, Critical Putinist propoganda? {you choose} quoted in full
http://m.krytyka.com/en
April 2014 Open Letter from Scholars and Experts on Ukraine Re. the So-Called “Anti-Communist Law”
David R. Marples
To the President of Ukraine, Petro O. Poroshenko, and to the Chairman of Ukraine’s Verkhovna Rada, Volodymyr B. Hroysman:
We, the undersigned, appeal to you not to sign into law the draft laws (no. 2538-1 and 2558)1 adopted by the Verkhovna Rada on April 9, 2015. As scholars and experts long committed to Ukraine’s regeneration and freedom, we regard these laws with the deepest foreboding. Their content and spirit contradicts one of the most fundamental political rights: the right to freedom of speech. Their adoption would raise serious questions about Ukraine’s commitment to the principles of the Council of Europe and the OSCE, along with a number of treaties and solemn declarations adopted since Ukraine regained its independence in 1991. Their impact on Ukraine’s image and reputation in Europe and North America would be profound. Not least of all, the laws would provide comfort and support to those who seek to enfeeble and divide Ukraine.
We also are troubled by the fact that the laws passed without serious debate, without dissenting votes and with large numbers of deputies declining to take part.
In particular we are concerned about the following:
1. Concerning the inclusion of groups such as the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) as “fighters for Ukrainian independence”: Article 6 of this law makes it a criminal offense to deny the legitimacy of “the struggle for the independence of Ukraine in the 20th century” and public denial of the same is to be regarded as an insult to the memory of the fighters. Thus questioning this claim, and implicitly questioning anything such groups did, is being made a criminal offense.
2. Law 2558, the ban on propaganda of “Communist and National Socialist Regimes” makes it a criminal offense to deny, “including in the media, the criminal character of the communist totalitarian regime of 1917-1991 in Ukraine.”
The potential consequences of both these laws are disturbing. Not only would it be a crime to question the legitimacy of an organization (UPA) that slaughtered tens of thousands of Poles in one of the most heinous acts of ethnic cleansing in the history of Ukraine, but also it would exempt from criticism the OUN, one of the most extreme political groups in Western Ukraine between the wars, and one which collaborated with Nazi Germany at the outset of the Soviet invasion in 1941. It also took part in anti-Jewish pogroms in Ukraine and, in the case of the Melnyk faction, remained allied with the occupation regime throughout the war.
However noble the intent, the wholesale condemnation of the entire Soviet period as one of occupation of Ukraine will have unjust and incongruous consequences. Anyone calling attention to the development of Ukrainian culture and language in the 1920s could find himself or herself condemned. The same applies to those who regard the Gorbachev period as a progressive period of change to the benefit of Ukrainian civil society, informal groups, and political parties, including the Movement for Perestroika (Rukh).
Over the past 15 years, Vladimir Putin’s Russia has invested enormous resources in the politicization of history. It would be ruinous if Ukraine went down the same road, however partially or tentatively. Any legal or ‘administrative’ distortion of history is an assault on the most basic purpose of scholarly inquiry: pursuit of truth. Any official attack on historical memory is unjust. Difficult and contentious issues must remain matters of debate. The 1.5 million Ukrainians who died fighting the Nazis in the Red Army are entitled to respect, as are those who fought the Red Army and NKVD. Those who regard victory over Nazi Germany as a pivotal historical event should neither feel intimidated nor excluded from the nation.
Since 1991, Ukraine has been a tolerant and inclusive state, a state (in the words of the Constitution) for ‘citizens of Ukraine of all nationalities’. If signed, the laws of April 9 will be a gift to those who wish to turn Ukraine against itself. They will alienate many Ukrainians who now find themselves under de facto occupation. They will divide and dishearten Ukraine’s friends. In short, they will damage Ukraine’s national security, and for this reason above all, we urge you to reject them.
Signatories:
Tarik Cyril Amar, Assistant Professor of History, Columbia University, USA
Mark R. Baker, Assistant Professor, Koç University, Istanbul, Turkey
J. Arch Getty Distinguished Professor of History University of California Los Angeles (UCLA), USA
Dominique Arel, Chair of Ukrainian Studies, University of Ottawa, Canada
Uilleam Blacker, Lecturer in Comparative East European Culture, University College London, UK
Jeffrey Burds, Associate Professor of Russian and Soviet History, Northeastern University, USA
Marco Carynnyk, Independent Scholar, Toronto, Canada
Markian Dobczansky, Ph.D. candidate, Department of History, Stanford University, USA
Rory Finnin, University Senior Lecturer in Ukrainian Studies, University of Cambridge, UK
Christopher Gilley, Research Fellow, University of Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
Guido Hausmann, Ludwig-Maximilian University, Munich, Germany
John-Paul Himka, Professor Emeritus, Department of History & Classics, University of Alberta, Canada
Tom Junes, PhD (historian) – Imre Kertész Kolleg, Jena, Germany
Ivan Katchanovski, Adjunct Professor, School of Political Studies, University of Ottawa, Canada
Olesya Khromeychuk, Teaching Fellow, University College London, UK
Oleh Kotsyuba, Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures, Harvard University, USA
Matthew Kott, Researcher at Centre for Russian and Eurasian Studies, Uppsala University, Sweden
Olga Kucherenko, Independent Scholar, Cambridge, UK
Victor Hugo Lane, York College, City University of New York, USA
David R. Marples, Distinguished University Professor, Department of History & Classics, University of Alberta, Canada
Jared McBride, Visiting Assistant Professor of History, Columbia University, USA
Tanja Penter, Professor of Eastern European History, Heidelberg University, Germany
Olena Petrenko, Ph.D. Student, Department of East European History, Ruhr University Bochum, Germany
William Risch, Associate Professor of History, Georgia College, USA
Per Anders Rudling, Associate Professor of History, Lund University, Sweden
Martin Schulze Wessel, Chair of Eastern European History, Ludwig-Maximilian University, Munich, Germany
Steven Seegel, Associate Professor of History, University of Northern Colorado, USA
Anton Shekhovtsov, Visiting Senior Fellow, Legatum Institute, London, UK
James Sherr, Associate Fellow, Chatham House, London, UK
Volodymyr Sklokin, Researcher, Center for Urban History of East-Central Europe, Lviv, Ukraine
Iryna Sklokina, Researcher, Center for Urban History of East-Central Europe, Lviv, Ukraine
Yegor Stadny, Ph.D. Student, Department of History, Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, Ukraine
Andreas Umland, Senior Research Fellow, Institute for Euro-Atlantic Cooperation, Kyiv, Ukraine
Ricarda Vulpius, Research Fellow, Department for the History of East- and Southeastern Europe, Ludwig-Maximilian University, Munich, Germany
Lucan Way, Associate Professor of Political Science, University of Toronto, Canada
Zenon Wasyliw, Professor of History, Ithaca College, USA
Anna Veronika Wendland, Research Coordinator, The Herder Institute for Historical Research on East Central Europe, Marburg, Germany
Frank Wolff, Assistant Professor of History and Migration Studies, Osnabrück University, Germany
Christine Worobec, Professor Emerita, Northern Illinois University, USA
Serhy Yekelchyk, Professor of Slavic Studies and History, University of Victoria, Canada
Tanya Zaharchenko, Postdoctoral Fellow, Center for Historical Research, Higher School of Economics, Saint Petersburg, Russia
Sergei Zhuk, Associate Professor of History, Ball State University, Indiana, USA
1.Editor’s note: Draft law no. 2538-1 “On the Legal Status and Commemoration of Fighters for Ukraine’s Independence in the 20th Century” is avaiable in Ukrainian here.
Draft law no. 2558 “On the Condemnation of the Communist and the National-Socialist (Nazi) Totalitarian Regimes in Ukraine and Ban on the Propaganda of Their Symbols” is available in Ukrainian here: http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=54670
Loved the Munk Debate in Canada on Russia and Putin which pitted Stephen Cohen and Vladimir Pozner against chess Grand Master Garry Kasparov and the Washington Post’s spy-in-residence Anne Applebaum before a packed Russophobe audience.
When the so-called debate started, 42% of the audience said they favored more engagement with Russia’s Putin, but before it had even finished, the number favoring more engagement had dropped to 32%, thanks to Garry’s heated interruptions, and spy Applebaum getting Stephen;s goat with her constant name-calling.
Intelligent professionals should know when the game is stacked against them, and they cannot possible improve things, much less win.
That’s why little me gave up any public invitations to speak about a half century ago. No one seriously changes their mind quickly.
YouKnowMyName, I agree with those four comments. London has long been a recruiting ground for “islamic” extremists; see the “covenant of security”, whereby until the 7/7 bombings secret services permitted such extremists to organise in the UK for operations overseas on the understanding that no operations would be pursued in the UK itself.
And no, I don’t regard you 12:27 pm comment as Kremlin propaganda.
Thanks, Uzbek, for prompting a little exploration of the notion of Stalin as Zionist. Which seems to be well supported.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3622371?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
As you say, after 1949 he became considerably less happy with the idea.
Not a wild theory at all, then.
John Goss, here’s why I call you a Putinista:
This is extreme and one-sided. We know there was popular support for the overthrow, but you ignore it, just as Russian government propaganda does. You ignore international condemnation of the referendum in Crimea, just as Russian government propaganda does. You try to convince me that pictures of artillery are combine harvesters, against the evidence of my own eyes and experience. You tried to depict me as wealthy, owning a farm, when I live in a rented cottage. You accused me of hating Russian people and attributed this to bitterness from a failed marriage to a Russian, when I have never been married. And you praise Macky after this sort of abuse:
You accuse Evgueni, a supporter of direct democracy, of having military objectives and you accuse Uzbek in the UK of serving some master. You use Resident Dissident’s family connections to attempt to hurt him emotionally, and avoid engaging with the evidence and arguments he presents, preferring to repeatedly dismiss him as a “supporter of fascists”
John Goss, whether you’re Putinistas or not, you and Macky are most certainly trolls.
John Goss
“some private soldiers strategically positioned among them who opened fire on both sides”
Is it all based on that conversation recorded by KGB and put up to convince you and you alike that it was that? My understanding of that conversation was that Urmas Paet was wondering whether it was indeed true. And that was because he like many had actually swallowed KGB propaganda. But when Berkut officers have been arrested and questioned and claimed that they had written authorisation (to shoot) from then Interior Minister, I just guess you IGNORE this fact.
“Since coming to power this parliament has removed the rights of Communists”
No rights or ideas or even party of Communists have been banned. BUT symbols, propaganda and falsification of history by either Communist or (whom you call) Nazis. Denial of Golodomor as deliberate policy of targeting Ukrainian villagers as well as denial of Holocaust are equally prohibited by law. And you know what I agree with that. When one comes up with mountain of historical evidence to support both, their denial is criminal offence. Or act of madness (like in your case). But KGB propaganda was very quick to turn this into something that sound horrific, so that you, macky and other MWL could moan about here.
You will not see many swastika sybmols in Germany do you? Have you seen any single statue of Hitler in any of German town? Guess what? Communists killed almost as many Ukrainians (and many more Russians) than Nazis did of their own (Germans). So why is it acceptable to ban Nazis in Germany BUT NOT acceptable to ban Communist symbols and their false view of history in Ukraine?
“removed the rights of opposition media to exist and removed the rights of individuals to distribute or listen to Russian news”
As far as I am aware Russian TV is still widely broadcasted in Ukraine (past of the problem). In fact to some extend there are more people in Ukraine watching Russian TV then Ukrainian. Russian news since start of Ukrainian revolution was nothing but source of false information aimed at establishing and then enforcing hatred between two (long before that known) brother nations. If you listed to Drimiry Kisilev and then find broadcast by Joseph Goebbels you will see very little difference. Only Goebells was talking about Czechs and Kisilev about Ukrainians. Both claim that (Czechs and Ukrainians) have no right to self determination as people who inferior to (Germans and Russians) and who live on lands that once belong to their greater neighbours (Germans and Russians).
I am now seriously suspecting you of being a troll. There is no amount of madness which could explain your behaviour and certain of your claims.
OMG – the cackling witch “we came,we saw and he died” is going to be POTUS. I am already researching real estate in St Helens and aquaponics, WW3 is coming. But having just researched the Israeli air/gunboat/helicopter attack on the USS Liberty in 1967, I feel the strangely quiet ehud brog (of 911 fame) might just be focused on the finishing touches of a similar plan to con the Beast into a conflict with Iran before expiry of Odumbo’s term in 2016. Its getting a bit late in the day to realise bibli’s delusion about being another conqueror like eretz israel dayan. The prophesied second Beast arising from underground (dimona nuclear silos?) will be even more powerful.
Truther999, you have waited too long to make your move.
There will be a serious war before Hillary becomes POTUS.
Some nut will fire a missile or an accident will happen which will trigger it.
Just too many dangerous nuts in the world.
“Donbas” itself is a pro-Kremlin propaganda term. Donbas is the basin of the Don river, and as such half of it is already within Russia, the propaganda objective being to normalise the idea of it all being within Russia.
John Goss, if you’re honest, you’ve got a lot of waking up to do.
YouKnowMyName
22 Apr, 2015 – 12:25 pm
Thanks and here’s the BBC interview with Aimen Dean to which the article you linked refers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuTKCgSodU4
Surprisingly only 700 hits though very watchable.
Uzbek in the UK, a “troll” is just someone who’s routinely obnoxious on Internet forums and blogs. Someone who posts opinions on behalf of an organisation is a “shill” or an “astroturfer”.
The Kremlin-organised shills and astroturfers have a reputation of being highly unpleasant, and have thus become known as “Russian trolls” – the term isn’t really appropriate, but I suspect it has caught on because it sounds like “Russian dolls”, you know, the gifts to children with a doll within a doll within a doll…
@Trowbridge – thanks, as the nuclear blast hits me, I might remember I heard it first on the CM blog !
Uzbek in the UK, can you translate from Russian?