Labour Equals UKIP Lite 88

Miliband promises tougher immigration controls than Tories, after his promise of triple lock guaranteed austerity. How much more right wing can Labour get? Having alienated the Scottish people, are Labour now trying to alienate everybody outside London and Surrey? It seems Labour policy is made by a focus group of hedge fund managers infiltrated by Farage.

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88 thoughts on “Labour Equals UKIP Lite

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  • nevermind

    Indeed Clark. Those of us who know Craig and his far from easy life will realise how wrong Becky is to try and flame him.

    It took her some time to read up about Neturei Karta, not that it made any difference, and I doubt that s/he has educated herself on Julian Assange’s case history. Sigh

    I wish her well and whence she grows up and has children, one can only hope that they will get some impartial, humane and unbiased upbringing.
    Don’t let BIBI bring up your kids, he needs a shrink.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)


    “Burnham says that there is a Tory plan to cut the number of NHS nurses by 2,000 over the next 4 years.”

    Well, if NoooLabour’s Andy Burnham says it then it must be true, eh, Mary.

    Bit of a strange bedfellow for you, isn’t he?

  • nevermind

    sorry O/T, but relevant, have not read much in the UK MSM about it.

    Islamic states blueprint has been leaked. Far from just using religion as a cover they are a calculating bunch of criminals who will be hard to cut off from their Saudi and Quatari finance.

    Not unless Saudi and Quatar are threatened themselves will this change, so lets not waste our soldiers in the sands of Iraq and Syria.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Most disappointed not to have had a reply to my post of yesterday yet:

    “We all remember the Florida hanging chads of coruse, but I (and perhaps others) would find it interesting to read a considered and informative post on ballot rigging in the US at any level of election and, specifically, on the subject of postal voting in the US, again at any level of election (eg does the possibility even exist; if so, has there been documented fraud, is there any debate on it, etc…).

    Is there perchance an American reader of this blog, living in the US, who could provide such a post for our edification?”

    Must we conclude that there are no American readers living in the US? Or that if there are, they have nothing useful to tell us on that subject and/or prefer to post on other (eg UK) matters?

  • Villager


    “Having alienated the Scottish people, are Labour now trying to alienate everybody outside London and Surrey? It seems Labour policy is made by a focus group of hedge fund managers infiltrated by Farage.”

    Given the high number of immigrants in London, if you are correct that they intend to be tougher on immigration, why do you feel that Labour would not be alienating immigrants in London?

    I’m also not sure whether hedge fund managers are necessarily anti-immigration. As far as I am aware, a large proportion of investment bankers in the City are foreigners; its just the nature of the game given the top-financial-market status of the City. The Global co-CEO of Deutche Bank is of Indian background.

  • Mary

    Further tragedy as the Mediterranean claims over seven hundred more lives.

    Hundreds feared dead in Med sinking
    Hundreds of people are feared to have drowned after a boat carrying up to 700 migrants capsizes in the Mediterranean Sea, the Italian coastguard says.

    13 minutes ago

    Related content

    Live Med migrant disaster
    Video Why is crossing so deadly?
    What can Europe do?
    Video ‘I was rescued from migrant boat’

    Are our political leaders paralysed?

  • Laguerre

    re Nevermind 11.18

    Islamic states blueprint has been leaked. Far from just using religion as a cover they are a calculating bunch of criminals who will be hard to cut off from their Saudi and Quatari finance.

    I didn’t find that “revelation” very significant. The documents don’t prove anything. They could have been an attempt to work out what the structure of the ISIS is, rather than a blueprint of what it should be in the future.

    In any case it just revives old and largely discredited ideas, and incidently excuses the Saudis.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    “Further tragedy as the Mediterranean claims over seven hundred more lives.

    Hundreds feared dead in Med sinking
    Hundreds of people are feared to have drowned after a boat carrying up to 700 migrants capsizes in the Mediterranean Sea, the Italian coastguard says.”

    I’m glad Mary posted that because I was intending to sound out opinion on this question.

    People – mostly from sub-Saharan Africa – are being trafficked out of Libya, often in unseaworthy boats.

    If those boats are just left to sink then Europe can be accused of indifference amounting to inhumanity.

    If, on the other hand, it becomes known that Europe will rescue people from those boats in the event of shipwreck, this could simply make the traffickers job easier and increase demand.

    What, therefore, do people on here see as the correct way forward?

    Practical answers please, not mealu-mouthing talk about “it is Western policy that is fuelling this migration” (repeat: most of the migrants setting off from Libyan shores comes from sub-Saharan Africa and not from Syria, Irak,Afghanistan, etc..)

  • Macky

    Habbabkuk; “If, on the other hand, it becomes known that Europe will rescue people from those boats in the event of shipwreck, this could simply make the traffickers job easier and increase demand.”

    The same weasel argument used by Britain in the EU in order to encourage the Italian government to end their “Mare Nostrum” search-and-rescue operations across the Mediterranean, & instead for the EU to focus on border control rather than search-and-rescue, a policy that started last November; the result has been not a reduction, but a massive increase in the number of refugees attempting the crossing, and a massive increase of refugess dying, directly as a result of this new EU policy;

    “Some 700 people have been lost at sea this year compared with about 17 in the equivalent period of 2014.”

  • Monteverdi

    I was intending to sound out opinion on this question .
    If you saw a child , woman or man drowning , would you try and save them ?
    A simple YES/NO answer will suffice .

  • Mary

    Med migrant boat disaster
    This page automatically updates

    Key Points

    Hundreds of people feared to have drowned after a boat carrying up to 700 migrants capsized in the Mediterranean Sea

    Major rescue operation under way after the vessel capsized in Libyan waters south of the Italian island of Lampedusa

    Italian ships, the Maltese Navy and commercial vessels are all involved in the rescue operation

    If confirmed, it would be the biggest migrant tragedy to have taken place in the Mediterranean in recent times


    EU ministers are holding an urgent meeting. That should solve things. Any word from Cameron and Sarkozy who wrecked Libya, thus creating this terrible situation?

  • Villager

    19 Apr, 2015 – 3:06 pm

    Yes. And I agree sometimes it is important to simplify things in order to make sense.

    Is it possible, for just a minute, to put one’s ‘self’ into the psychological position of these people who are willing to take the grave risk of their life. And then, even if they make it over here, what is the quality of their personal lives?

    ‘Modern man’ is apparently nothing but a medieval Type Zero Global Civilisation. Most of us are sleep-walking through life and apparently satisfied to do so.

  • CanSpeccy

    “How much more right wing can Labour get?”

    Instead of inverting the meaning of words, why not deal with the real issues: including the impact of mass immigration on wages, housing costs, and alienation when working class neighborhoods are transformed by an influx of people of a different race, culture and religion?

    Also, why not explain how it is you’re for Scotch independence but are opposed to the rights of the English to self-determination in matters such as immigration?

    If you were to describe what ordinary people in Britain want, you would describe a supporter of UKIP. But people won’t vote UKIP because they’ve been told by Craig Murray and the rest of the lying liberal-globalist elite that UKIP is racist and nationalist, i.e., Nazi.

    Meantime, liberals like Craig Murray support real Nazi’s in Ukraine because they serve the goal of destroying Russia as an independent nation state.

    How pathetic that people are conned so easily.

  • Villager


    “Any word from Cameron and Sarkozy who wrecked Libya, thus creating this terrible situation?”

    Misnomer! You must read Habbabkuk more regularly who anticipated your narrow thinking.

    And, best of luck for your procedure! Hope your pod comes equipped with a laptop. Anyhow, hope its not too uncomfortable.

  • Macky

    Villager; “You must read Habbabkuk more regularly who anticipated your narrow thinking.”

    Ironically, & amusingly, I guess you consider every person or source that disagrees with your Guru-like Habby as indulging in narrow thinking ! 😀

    “UNHCR figures suggest that some 25,000 people fled to Italy from North Africa in 2005, a number which dwindled to 9,573 in 2009.

    In 2011, this figure rocketed back to some 61,000, driven by the conflict in Libya which culminated in the downfall of Col Gaddafi.”

  • Villager

    Macky, this is not a narrow game of numbers/quantity. If you think of the broader underlying, root-cause humanitarian issues, this is an issue about refugees escaping conflict. And as your articles states as of 2014, the large number of them were from Eritrea and Somalia.

    So, Mary is wrong in exclaiming that ‘Cameron and Sarkozy who wrecked Libya, thus creating this terrible situation?”

    Now, in hastily running to Mary’s rescue, do we call you a jackass or jenny? I’m afraid I can’t tell from your gaping mouth. Try this one next time, it’s less likely to get stuffed. And as Dreoilin has pointed out, with a little less frequency so it doesn’t appear disingenuous 😉

  • Villager

    “So, Mary is wrong in exclaiming that ‘Cameron and Sarkozy who wrecked Libya, thus creating this terrible situation?”

    As much as I think that these characters were fundamentally wrong to attack Libya. These fuckers can’t think beyond the end of their nose and they should be tried for war-crimes.

  • Posis1959

    Mr Murray, I’ve just done a search of your site via Google for “Coudenhove-Kalergi” (as in Practical Idealism) and drawn a blank.

    We know Google isn’t perfect, sorry, a plausible index of record, but do you feel identifying massive non-democratic alien immigration into UK as a calculated plan for the genocide of indigenous white British would be best considered a “conspiracy theory”?

    We can do nothing to defend against what is now blatantly a racial onslaught without regaining control of our borders, and that cannot be done without first leaving the EU, and UKIP is the only party that publicly acknowledges that fact – whatever its vices, such as toeing the ‘party’ line on not entertaining proposals for monetary reform.

    Israel proclaims without criticism its right to maintain its identity, why not we too?

    There’s also the JFK speech about secrecy and a global conspiracy:

  • Macky

    @Villager, life is too short to pointlessly engage in a attempted serious debate with a proven wacko like you; do yourself a favour and read-up on Eritrea and Somalia before you go blindly following the Habby Troll Garden Path To Nowhere; you might even discover simple facts like that both countries frequently carry the epithet “war-wracked”.

    It’s an accepted truth that countries that experience conflict and civil unrest produce the largest numbers of refugees. Afghanistan is the leading country of origin for refugees, followed by Iraq and Syria, and now thanks mainly to Cameron and Sarkozy, Libya has jumped up the list.

    Here’s a thought for those that complain about too many refugees being settled in the West, (even though it is mostly responsible for making them refugees);

    In 2011 only 0.7% of the worlds refugees were resettled. Most refugees who aren’t resettled live in some of the world’s poorest countries such as Pakistan, Iran and Syria.

  • Jon

    @Posis1959: it is perhaps clear to you that the UK is subject to something that is “blatantly a racial onslaught”, but not to everyone. The question of what the person in the street thinks of immigration is rather complex, given that the knee-jerk reaction from the media has mostly been anti-immigration (with, I would guess, a small number of exceptions).

    I don’t tend towards the view that the media are all dictated to by secret and conspiratorial right-wing forces – rather, they are driven by the profit motive, and scare stories sell newspapers. I think it is generally agreed that propaganda does influence people, so where does that leave our trying to measure the “real views” of voters? It’s a hard question to answer. For what it’s worth, I am not sure most people are all that worked up about it – and I’m of the opinion there is a rough correlation between people understanding the value of immigration and their falling opposition to it (witness immigration documentaries on the telly, where Daily Mail readers are reduced to tears at the plight of a refugee family).

    I think it’s worth seeing the immigration debate as a conflict broadly on the economic right. If our present immigration levels have a depressive effect on wage levels (and I’ve no data as to whether they do) then the capitalist class would, presumably, be in favour of this. On an interesting note, I’ve known UK employers who have been keen to hire from Eastern Europe because the average Pole has a much better work ethic than your average Briton (regardless of ethnic background). This presents a dilema for progressives: in the last immigration bust-up on this blog, we had one bloc deriding a pro-immigration grouping as “capitalism’s hand-maidens”, which if nothing else demonstrates the Left’s continuing tendency to channel the People’s Front of Judea.

    Meanwhile, there is an accidental alliance of mainstream “politically correct” commentators plus most of the UK left that is pro-immigration, which I believe forms a historical continuation of anti-fascism dating from WWII. Whether being opposed to (or being unenthusiastic about) new border controls is the correct approach to warding off the extreme Right is a difficult question, but I believe it’s correct to see it in such a context.

    These days I am somewhat undecided as to whether the PC movement has helped the cause of anti-racism in the UK. I used to be sure that it had, but to find out we’d need a time-machine in order to run history differently a second time. When right-wing commentators are called “racist”, they complain that you can’t say anything these days (which in turn appears to be a new movement that forbids people from calling anyone a racist). But perhaps it did indeed create a stifling effect that has prevented sensible discussions about identity and cohesiveness?

    Unfortunately, I don’t know that a sensible discussion is achievable at all in the glare of the mass media. It’s possible in smaller and quieter fora, perhaps with some philosophers and intellectuals, but it’s important to understand that the recent red/blue appeals for tougher borders +do+ appeal to the far Right, and in the same way, a gallumphing Farage continues to provide a home for genuinely nasty views. It is a small mercy that the BNP imploded before they were able to take advantage of these political developments.

    If it is the case that PC has had an impact on legitimate and nuanced discussion about race and identity, the result is that people such as yourself, who are “concerned” about immigration are driven to use the language of fascism, presumably because moderate languge has had no effect. Thus, immigration is a “racial onslaught” – the kind of phraseology that would suit a leaflet from the National Front rather than rational and humane discussion. I am torn between the view that tries to take account of the left-leaning consensus you believe you are fighting against, and encouraging you to take responsibility for the inflammatory language you employ.

    After voting day, the red or blue party will win, so on the surface of it you can rejoice, since our borders will be tightened either way. However, the implementation is likely to be privatised and so will probably be a disaster, with Crapita or some other sponge on the public purse cocking up the computer system royally (and getting paid anyway). Thus, it may be that our national reputation for tolerance will take a beating, with all of the increase in genuine racism it will create for the police to deal with, whilst having no discernable effect on the numbers flaunted by Migration Watch.

    And in the unlikely event new border controls work, if it pushes up wage costs, the capitalists will get a few more public sector sell-offs anyway, so they may feel suitably remunerated for their minor losses. Either way isn’t really a good outcome, is it?

  • Posis1959


    Many words, but little sense. A ton of obfuscation and false left-right paradigm / Hegelian Dialectic, but you didn’t disprove the premise of my fundamental concern: DEMOGRAPHICS. The fact that there are secondary aims, e.g. of lowering wages, DOES NOT DETRACT FROM THAT SINCE THEY SERVE THE SAME ULTIMATE OBJECTIVE.

    . . . given that the knee-jerk reaction from the media has mostly been anti-immigration (with, I would guess, a small number of exceptions). . . .

    If you start off with a grotesquely bizarre misstatement like that then you have forfeited any reasonable expectation of an attentive audience since you are plainly disconnected from reality, or at least the reality outside your head.

    Let me just say:

    1. Your so-called red and blue parties are in reality the wings of the Money Party, watchful gofer: The Remembrancer.

    2. Mass immigration has never received a democratic mandate and does not serve the interests of the typical voter or those whom the Labour Party purports to represent. ‘Emerson truly observed: “So far as a man thinks, he is free.” The (so-called) working classes can never be free until they learn to think for themselves instead of allowing their thinking to be done for them by the middle-class (yeah, right) exploiters of labour.’

    3. Read pp 663-664 of Kemp’s ‘March of the Titans’ and see if you can get it. (From your writing style of skewed usages, e.g. “progressives” (sic), plainly you already do). Hint: “History, politics, and human affairs are the product of demography. A failure to breed is punished by Nature with extinction.” Add: a failure to OUTbreed the tidal wave of unassimilable third world immigrants who have been sent EXCLUSIVELY TO WHITE COUNTRIES…

    4. Next watch this and say if you dare that you deny Israel’s right to exist. They are making the same point as Kemp, that they have a right to exist, and more to the point, that they will assert that right:

    5. Then write another fogging essay if it makes you feel better. Just don’t expect anyone to be around to read it.

    PS: It wasn’t “fascists” who killed upwards of 66 million people (Solzhenitsyn) in the Soviet Union. Another neural bomb defused.

  • Helen Pender

    Seems the Tories are set square to win this election by fair means or foul, no matter what the voters may think.

    This election is neither free, fair nor democratic. Having complained to the Electoral Commissioner’s Office on a number of issues namely:

    1. Candidates will only be able to attend the count for their own election. They will not be admitted before their count or permitted to stay in the chamber after their count has been completed.

    2. The Returning Officer usually insists that no one will be allowed to take photographs in the counting chamber.

    3, County Council and Parish Council Ballot boxes will be shipped to Melton for the General Election count at 10 pm on 7th May and then shipped back to Oakham for the 2 pm County Council count on 8th May in the Victoria Hall.

    4. Bloggers and social media will not be permitted into the counting chamber – only requests to attend from mainstream accredited media will be considered.

    5. 2011 local election was reported to the Electoral Commissioner – seven recounts which involved breaches of rules including removal of votes from the table before reconciliation and return of votes to the table with more in the piles than removed. Conservatives handled votes – reported on

    I got this email back from the Commissioner’s Office – seems like a fix for the Tories to me with the collusion locally of press, police and judging by this reply from the Electoral Commissioner’s Office too!

    Sxxxxxxxx Sxxxxxx
    17:04 (6 hours ago)

    to me
    Dear Ms Pender

    Thank you for your recent call to the Electoral Commission.

    By law the proceedings at the count have to be kept secret and for that reason we strongly advise Returning Officers not to allow the use of photography or mobile phones at a count. The Returning Officer would have been acting in accordance with the law and our guidance in not allowing photography. An election count is not open to the general public and attendance is governed by legislation. Candidates and their agents can attend the count in which they are standing but they have no right to be present at other counts that may be taking place in the same venue. Indeed having people present who have no right to be there can impede the counting process and so we make it clear to Returning Officers that once a particular count has been concluded the Returning Officer can ask all those involved in that count to leave the count venue.

    With regard to the count at the 2015 UK Parliamentary election we have looked at the plans prepared by Melton Borough Council for the count for the Melton and Rutland constituency and are happy with them . We have no reason to believe that the local Rutland count will be anything other than effective and carried out in accordance with the rules and our guidance.

    Kind regards,

    Sxxxxxxxx Sxxxxxxx
    Public Info Officer
    The Electoral Commission
    3 Bunhill Row
    EC1Y 8YZ
    Fax: 020 7271 0665

    So it appears there won’t be any pictures transmitted from any marginal seat by any TV station this election!

  • Jon


    It is possible that the difference between our modes of interaction is that I do not set out to offend. If I have offended you, apologies, and I shall try to not so again, whilst also being as forthright as necessary.

    I didn’t understand all of your responses, but I’ll try to respond to the bits I could follow. There was nothing obfuscatory in my reply, I assure you – what you find obfuscatory may just be where we disagree. Everything I said was an honest and straightforward (if discursive) presentation of my thoughts.

    We evidentally have a difference of opinion as to whether the mainstream media are broadly anti-immigration. I believe they are, and have acknowledged the tensions between the MSM being representatives of capitalism (pro-immigration) and the need to sell papers (anti-immigration). I think the latter wins, perhaps because of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it mentality: rail against multi-culturalism whilst benefiting from the economic effects of immigration anyway.

    1. Yes, red/blue parties are two wings of the money party, agreed. I don’t think I said anything to contradict that. My commentary on party politics is still worthwhile even if we don’t like the parties as they stand. We could boycott mainstream politics in all its forms (and some people advocate for that) but I don’t think that’s productive (and I broadly support peaceful revolution, whilst seeing the need to ameliorate capitalism’s worse damage in the short term through reformist means).

    2. “Mass immigration has never received a democratic mandate”. True, but then racial segregation has not received a democratic mandate either. What level of segregation would you support, for the UK, given where we are now? Would you close the borders and have the NHS collapse? Would you repatriate people of colour, or immigrants of recent arrival? I think we need to see some meat on the bones of your proposal (and I am willing to hear what you really think, even if it would normally be dismissed as racist).

    3. Thank you for the reading recommendation, I will add that to my list. Your “failure to breed” and “WHITE COUNTRIES” is most worrying though – this sounds rather like a call for racial purity. I don’t think there is any such thing as a “white country”, and I think that sort of talk is the road to fascism. I am happy to expand on my views here if you want.

    4. I don’t have the bandwidth to watch YT videos, but in any case bringing Israel into this discussion rather excessively broadens a topic that is unwieldy enough as it is. What are the core points that you want me to consider regarding Israel? For what it is worth, my view from the left is that Israel is a fact of history, it is a huge injustice that it was placed on top of an existing people, and both sides are going to have to make some massive compromises to sort it all out.

    I think Israel’s claim to the land they occupy is based on the Bible, which is hardly defensible in the secular world, and even if we could encourage them to revert back to the 1948 borders, some injustice will still be perpetrated against the Palestinians. The age of the contestation now means that if Israel will return to its borders, new generations of Israelis will be forced to move, a counteracting injustice. No-one wants to see lines of Jewish people being forced out of their homes, for obvious historical reasons.

    I don’t know what kind of peace accord is going to be necessary to help make both sides make the mental shifts required. I am in favour of a one-state solution, for what it is worth, but both sides reject that at present. I don’t think a two-state solution is viable, which I think has been a core Zionist strategy.

    5. Well, there aren’t many people still reading this page. Ah well, at least one person is!

    Your “PS” doesn’t really relate to the discussion, other than perhaps to serve to show that all political ideologies are capable of corruption and mass murder. If that’s the point you were making, I agree.

    I am happy to hear an expansion of your views, though I would ask you to refrain from insults, which harm free discussion. I would urge you to be bold in your explanations too – there is no point in a discussion if you are unwilling to be explicit as to what you are advocating.

    Related point: we have a few people on this board who, after patient point and counterpoint, finally admitted that the death toll in the Israel/Palestine conflict needed to be rebalanced. By this they meant that sufficient Israelis/Jewish people needed to be put to death for reasons of “fairness”, so that the death toll in the conflict is equalised. The means by which this would happen was not explained. Now, I find this policy appalling in the extreme, but it is better that someone says they are in favour of this, so that both sides can understand what is being said (and possibly to create space to change someone’s mind, too).

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