It is no secret that Alistair Carmichael is a friend of mine. Not least because he told parliament so in 2005:
“The Government’s signals to the Uzbek regime have not always been helpful. I am thinking especially of their treatment of my old friend, the former ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray, who has done us all a great service in graphically highlighting the appalling human rights record of the Uzbekistan Government.”
Alistair was one of very few MPs who raised the dreadful human rights abuses in Uzbekistan even before I got there. He has a genuine interest in human rights worldwide, and had a much better motivation in going into politics than the large majority of politicians. He was never anything like a diehard unionist in personal conviction. I felt quite proud for him when he was asked during the campaign what would his role be in negotiating for the UK the conditions of separation after a Yes vote. He replied that he was Scottish, and he would be on the Scottish, not the UK side.
I have never chosen my friends by my politics, and I am not one of those people who is only happy in the company of those who agree with me. I am happiest with a few drinks and a good argument in intellectually challenging company. I also do know that all human beings are flawed, and I don’t expect perfection. So I have no intention of ending friendship with Alistair.
All of which makes it hard, but I have to say that I really do think he needs to resign as an MP, and to do so immediately.
It was not just a mistake to leak that memo, it was wrong. It was even more wrong because he himself believed it was written in error and did not give Nicola Sturgeon’s true opinion. But in an election in which the Scottish Lib Dems faced wipeout, he saw the advantage of playing this trick. That was wrong on many levels. I would add that I feel very confident that Alistair would never have done it without consulting Clegg first. Clegg should resign too. And instead of the usual Cabinet Office stitch-up, there needs to be a real inquiry into the whole history and production of that extraordinary minute, and whether Alistair was set up to do it. The Scottish Government needs to be an equal partner in constituting that inquiry.
Alistair has no alternative but to resign because he then repeatedly lied about what he had done. It is much better that he goes now with a full and frank apology to everyone, especially his constituents. When you have blatantly and repeatedly lied about something, you cannot expect people to give you their trust again. That it even seems a possibility is an example of the erosion of ethical standards, of which Tony Blair is of course the greatest example as liar, mass murderer and multi-millionaire.
But we should not lose sight of the real lesson. The corrupt and rotten structures of the UK state are so insidious that they can take a fundamentally decent man like Alistair and lead him to behave so badly. There is something within the rotting organisms of UK institutions in their decline from Imperial power and dependence on corrupt banking and corporate systems, that infects almost all who enter them. While I worked for the FCO I saw really nice colleagues, decent men and women I worked with, go along with organising what they knew to be illegal war in Iraq, and with facilitating the torture and extraordinary rendition programmes. Because that was what paid their mortgage, looked after their children, and above all gave them social status as high British diplomats.
Westminster gives untramelled executive power to a party with just 23% of the support of the registered electorate. The majority of parliamentarians are unelected Lords a great many of whom are themselves mired in corruption – and some much worse. The organs of state power are used to facilitate the flow of money from the poor to the very wealthy, which is the actual cause of the deficit in public finances. The rewards of being on the inside are sweet; those outside are measurably dispossessed of wealth, and measurably alienated in politics. The media is controlled by this corporate state.
Alistair Carmichael’s story is not the story of a bad man. It is the story of what happens to a good man who buys in to UK power structures. The real lesson of the sad story of this period in Alistair’s life is that the UK is evil, corrupt and corrupting, and that the UK state needs swiftly to be broken up.
RepublicOfLoudNoises (15h02)
“You of all people must know you’re looking at a severe thrashing,best leave it alone.”
Well, why don’t you try rather than limiting yourself to the rather feeble
“Climb back into bed and keep dreaming,that’s what you do best.” ??
Alex Salmond calling for the abolition of The Arkham Asylum,aka the Scottish Office.
Salmond also implies Mundell must’ve know about the antics of Carmichael,and the memo.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/589812/video-people-voted-carmichael-false-pretences-hes-deep-trouble-says-salmond/
Mary
“A weird and eclectic mix of talking heads is assembled, including Aaronovitch, Alibhai-Brown, Edwina Currie and dozens more. The Lord preserve us.”
_______________
Well, He is protecting you because He has given you the gift of free will – you are not obliged to attend, are you.
Although it might do you good to be exposed to views which might not be your own?
Are you against the Hay on Wye festival in general or just this year’s?
RepublicOfConfusion
“Habb old boy, Israel really is a beacon of justice,just ask Mordechai Vanunu.”
_____________________
You must learn to distinguish between the concept of the rule of law and particular laws you do not approve of.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“As for other Middle Eastern countries showing a shinning example of judiciary most are in a state of rubble,the others have been have corrupt western puppets as they’re leaders.”
_________________________
Middle Easter states – with the exception, of course, of the State of Israel – have never known the rule of law; this feature pre-dates any “state of rubble”.
As for the “Western puppets”, well, that’s of course a convenient let-out, isn’t it. It’s all the fault of the West again. Very, very silly……
Mary
“No chance of this thread remaining troll free. What a shame.”
___________________
Are you referring to me, your Nemesis?
BTW – do you like the blue of my gravatar?
“He spent all of his sentence in solitary and he was ill treated and abused by the guards throughout his incarceration. He was allowed only two visitors per year for a short period.
He has renounced Judaism and he is now a Christian and spends his days in a Christian Monastery in Palestine (West Bank). He was back in jail for breaking a part of very restrictive and draconian terms of release (he talked to the press), and he is bound over to never leave zionsitan or Palestine.
I have the utmost respect and regards for Mordechai Vanunu, in fact his discarded nail cuttings are far more honorable and precious than the pusillanimous waste of food that masquerade as the “liberal/concerned/etc” keyboard warrior assigned to this blog and elsewhere, pushing the sugar coated narrative of Jewish Supremacy.”
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Well said Fedup, you seem to have hit the moral nail square on the head.
Habb=itual liar,will probably wished he’d kept his morality to himself now,silly man.
No shit sherlock after all the munitions dumped (more than the total dropped on Germany in WWII) on that benighted country and the total destruction of Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen won’t you have thought that was the whole remit of these wars?
Keep these countries in a stasis and barely functioning, awaiting the decisions of the big oil and the other corporates for these to be brought back on line for exploitation of their resources.
“As for the “Western puppets”, well, that’s of course a convenient let-out, isn’t it. It’s all the fault of the West again. Very, very silly……”
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Oh I don’t know maybe you could tell me just how many countries have we (the west) liberated (razed to the ground) under the guise of democracy how many have we,corrupted,infiltrated,opposed, mineral stripped,set up rebel forces in to fight at our behest,since WWII.
Not to mention the millions of women and children have we shot,bombed, burned,and drone bombed to,death under the guise of liberty and freedom.
But of course,I’m just being silly…..silly old me.
John S Warren
25/05/2015 1:24am
You’ve given me quite a lot more material to work through, Mr Warren, and I can’t promise to get back to you today, I have other things to attend to. I’ll be happy to respond though – we have not finished yet, far from it.
Kind regards,
John
Spoorfugger
O/T – Chomsky/Harris debate
Hope I have remembered your name correctly, Spoorfugger. The longer I leave this, the guiltier I feel, but other things keep cropping up, sorry. I will come back to you, cross my heart.
Kind regards,
John
Perhaps some might reflect that Carmichael coming clean about his involvement so quickly after the event is actually a reflection of the strength of our system – and I am sure that we have the civil servants who undertook the investigation and refused to take the blame for the truth coming out. We should remember that in totalitarian regimes the denial of the truth is a much longer running affair – remember that the Soviet Union took over 50 years to own up to its responsibility for Katyn and the Holodomor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor
And even now some of the Soviet Union’s former supporters are still in denial.
As for those who think Carmichael should resign (and on balance I do think he should) will join me when Nicola Sturgeon is found to be lying if she hasn’t already.
http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/2015/02/prestwick-airport-taxpayer-bailout-doubles-to-40-million-by-202122/
I must say that the smell emanating from Prestwick is far from healthy – and the control freakery of the SNP leadership (of which Craig is not a little aware, should also be creating some concerns.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/05/born-kneeling/comment-page-5/#comment-527444
While we are on the subject of truth perhaps Mr Goss might wish to use his much boasted about journalistic skills and his impeccable sources to double check the claims he made in the above post. A little clue n****q. I look forward to his report on his findings.
Yep, we see this kind of thing everywhere. The corruption among authorities has become so bad that we no longer have respect for them or the thugs and various offices that serve them. The difference is that when a pleb allows his morality to lapse, he is vulnerable to some draconian and idiotic law. While the real crooks just buy their way out of the law. I see this on a daily basis in family law. That system is so thoroughly beyond rotten, but when parents fall into the trap of lying and cheating like the judges and lawyers do, they get their knuckles bloodied. The system then washes its hands of that blood and profits considerably, and the media reports that it’s always a case of the parents being rotten. There is probably an analogy there too with bad government blaming all our problems on people with benefits.
Mr Spencer-Davis
I am not a frequent contributor to this site, and cannot promise to respond timeously to any further comments. If I pick-up any further comments you make I shall endeavour to review, and respond if it seems worthwhile; but as you quite rightly wrote some time back, I think when the Burgess Shale was young “people [readers on this site] can choose for themselves what to believe”.
I am content that our discussion of the matter has already explored the main issues (at least as far as they are warranted for any practical or rational purpose) and I am happy to offer any readers that we have not actually sent off to sleep, my statement of the issue as it now stands.
One of the differences between us is that I feel you are – perhaps a little over-tenaciously – ‘flogging a long-dead horse’ with this issue of Ed Miliband. The reason for this tenacity remains a mystery, but I do not think it warrants a five-act play, while we wait for the denouement.
My current perspective is closer to an eighteenth century gambler coming to the (albeit regretted) conclusion that the value of the ‘game is not worth the candle’; and I should add that I am not inclined merely to play games.
John S Warren
25/05/2015 5:16pm
Well, Mr Warren, I wasn’t the one who sat up till 1:24am this morning writing nearly a thousand words of response. (What did you say about a five-act play?) Anyone would have thought the matter was actually important to you.
Suit yourself. I feel fully entitled to respond to what you have written already, though, your subtly sarcastic jibes about boredom, denouement, playing games, etc, etc, notwithstanding. If you don’t want me to keep on replying to you, I suggest you stop giving us all the benefit of your wisdom. “Cet animal est très méchant: Quand on l’attaque, il se defend“.
Kind regards,
John
Dreoilin
25 May, 2015 – 2:40 pm
In reply to Habbabkuk’s comment of:
“A singularly silly and incoherent post at 14h16 even by your standards.”
Liquid lunch?
……………………………………….
Perhaps it was you and Habbabkuk that have had a liquid lunch (together that is).
Your first comment on this thread Dreoilin is in support of Habbabkuk exactly two minutes after he posts.
Are you having it off?
Mr Spencer-Davis,
Of course you are fully entitled to reply; I would not, indeed I have not suggested otherwise. Furthermore, I did not expect that you would not reply; please feel free to attack or defend as you wish. I am perfectly happy with robust debate, and I would not have that otherwise.
You appear wounded, which I regret; but while I am happy to engage and debate, I cannot promise to provide an endless discussion on the basis that it must meet your requirements; perhaps those more familiar with this site have a different view. Am I guilty of a social solecism? Do you decide when a discussion is ‘over’? With great respect I did not see you as the moderator or arbiter of site debate.
More specifically, I do not believe there is much more of substance to be found in this whole issue, unless you wish to explain why you think the Miliband-PM ploy is so important (which I believe you have had ample opportunity to present). In such debates purposes matter, usually more than logical over-niceties. Time also matters.
We may beg to differ, but I simply think the debate is ‘played out’. Forgive my candour, I am disinclined to offend.
You tried that tack before, Doug. It gets boring.
Try and be a bit inventive next time.
“We may beg to differ, but I simply think the debate is ‘played out’.”
I think it’s thoroughly played out. I would guess that 90%+ of the population have already forgotten all about it.
All that remains is the question of whether Carmichael resigns or not.
So UK citizens will be entitled to vote in a referendum on Europe. Irish citizens resident in the UK will also be entitled to vote despite UK citizens resident in Ireland not being eligible to vote in their referendums.
Is their a moral case for citizens of other European countries to be eligible to vote in the UK referendum or would attempts to include them be motivated by a wish to manipulate the result?
John S Warren
25/05/2015 6:18pm
Mr Warren,
It takes a big person to write a response as gallant as that, to what I just wrote to you. “A soft answer turneth away wrath” (Proverbs 15:1). And I surely wouldn’t mind having you on my side in a fight. I’ll deal with it when I deal with the rest: but thanks, very much appreciated.
Kind regards,
John
The Irish Snipper division comes to the rescue time and again; snip and run and whenever she is pulled on it, out comes the “usual” is designed to entreat others into thinking these remarks are made based on mendacity “as before”.
The dreo has a long form with the other windbag and fake “Buddhist” villig…. as well as joining the other assigned keyboard warriors in tag teams of convenience; injecting invectives and snarling her way through the blog.
“Liquid lunch” of course is designing to discount the substance of the forwarded point attributing it to the drunken conduct!!!! (fact that today in UK we are on a bank holiday somehow has not dawned on her).
Of course the fake “prophet” and disguise switcher general was rattled to let the point of “Oligarch’s owning the media” as well as the “fascist Ukraine” and the designed and delivered substandard education of the plebs, hence the pointless knee jerk reaction and the usual recourse of a macaque throwing feces around. (evidently English is not redundant enough for these to adduce what the message was about?)
However you have rightly highlighted the currency of the troll dialectics on this blog.
Nevermind. Are you a Norwich supporter? If so well done at Wembley today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32776552
If convicted in Edinburgh High Court for lying in the Sheridan trial, will Coulson get Scottish Porage Oats or some English porridge?
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/1321527-coulson-knew-of-hacked-voicemails-leading-to-blunkett-affair-story/
“Denmark has cancelled its planned purchase of howitzers from the Israeli arms company Elbit Systems, a deal that was worth up to DK 1.000 million.
The progressive news portal modkraft notes that athough government officials cite financial reasons for the cancellation, others say this is an excuse and that public pressure against the deal is what broke it.
Elbit Systems has been directly involved in construction of Israel’s Separation Wall. It provides security to Israeli settlements and has produced drones used in last summer’s military attack on the Gaza Strip.
In December 2014 it was revealed that 20 Danish soldiers had been to Israel, testing Elbit’s artillery systems. A public outcry followed after which the Danish defence ministry backed down, states Christian Juhl from the Red-Green Alliance parliamentary group. “I believe the purchase may have been put on hold for tactical reasons”, states Juhl, referring to Denmark’s upcoming elections in September.”
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/activism/bds/794-denmark-cancels-elbit-deal
Oh God, somebody let the fake intellectual out of his cage again … Has he written one full sentence yet among all that verbiage?
“Is their a moral case for citizens of other European countries to be eligible to vote in the UK referendum”
Taking away their representation without allowing to vote on the matter – so say nothing of no taxation without representation. Why should the Irish/Maltese/Gibralarians who live here be entitled to special treatment? Cameron and Osborne will always put party before state I’m afraid.
Agent Cameron was badly advised last June when he sounded off against Juncker getting the EU presidency.
‘Cameron, who warned of “wafer thin” British support for the EU, told EU leaders: “[Jean-Claude Juncker] is the ultimate Brussels insider who has been at the table for the last two decades of decisions. If you want change is that the type of person you want for the future?”
Cameron outlined his concerns about Juncker in a brief meeting with Merkel shortly before the summit. A British official said Cameron told Merkel that the appointment of Juncker would mark a “worrying moment for Europe and for Britain”.’
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/david-cameron-loses-jean-claude-juncker-vote-eu
Tonight Juncker will be sitting down to dinner at Chequers.
Cameron looks more and more like a spiv as he rushes round Europe.
“I think it’s thoroughly played out. I would guess that 90%+ of the population have already forgotten all about it.
All that remains is the question of whether Carmichael resigns or not.”
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I fully agree with Dreoilin and suggest only that the question of Carmichael resigning (or not) will also be forgotten on another 48 hours – except, possibly, by a few sad people on here.
“Is their a moral case for citizens of other European countries to be eligible to vote in the UK referendum or would attempts to include them be motivated by a wish to manipulate the result?”
________________________________
Certainly the latter.
It is clear that the hundreds of thousands of Continentals who have come to the UK to find work would vote for the UK to stay in the EU.
The govt’s proposals on the forthcoming franchise
1/. correspond to the franchise for UK general elections,
2/. accird with EU electoral law, which provides that EU nationals may vote in the local and EP elections in their Member State of residence but not in general elections,
3/. follow practice in the various French, Irish, Dutch and Dabish referendums on matters pertaining to the EU.
Having said that, Habbabkuk predicts that the UL electorate will vote to remain in the EU. This is already obvious to all but phantasists and the blind.