Forget Faslane 185


With this country’s massive needs in housing and renewable energy, it is typical that the only public spending announcement the Tories wish to make is on more potential for death and destruction at Faslane. The politics of the ludicrous claims on employment creation are risibly transparent. Don’t vote SNP! Don’t Vote Corbyn! This is not an industrial or a services economy, its the WMD economy.

I was frustrated during the referendum campaign by the mealy-mouthed response to the unionists constant carping on about job losses at Faslane. Chucking out Trident will cause job losses. Good. Doing evil should not be sustained as a job creation scheme.

It is like arguing to keep the Spanish Inquisition going because of the workers it employs. Woodcutters gather the material for the burning alive of heretics. Skilled workers lay the faggots and construct the bonfires. Blacksmiths forge fetters and implements of torture. Then the torturers themselves have good steady jobs, and what of the clerks who write down the confessions? Ending the Spanish Inquisition would cause economic disruption.

I think that pushes the parallel far enough, but it is a sad comment on our moral relativism that anyone is allowed to talk of employment at Faslane as a bonus without being roundly ridiculed and socially shamed. As usual Osborne’s numbers are a trick of mostly totaling existing plans over a lengthy period. But even if this was genuine investment, he should be told where to stuff it. Scotland must not be a WMD based economy.


185 thoughts on “Forget Faslane

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  • John Spencer-Davis

    Craig Murray
    31/08/2015 11:28am

    “Chucking out Trident will cause job losses. Good.”

    Not good at all. Imagine being one of the people put out of work.

    Disposing of Trident can and should be coupled with economic assistance to those who will be made redundant as a result to find alternative employment.

    Of course Trident should go. And of course no-one should be working to sustain it. But they need to put food on the table, pay their mortgages, or whatever. It’s rather callous to say that it’s good that people should lose their jobs.

    Kind regards,

    John

  • Tom Welsh

    “Woodcutters gather the material for the burning alive of heretics. Skilled workers lay the faggots and construct the bonfires”.

    An excellent and edifying analogy! Note that the Spanish Inquisition actually killed relatively few people, although it spread terror far and wide.

    In contrast, even a single thermonuclear warhead detonating over a city – as they mostly would be – would kill at least 100,000.

    Everyone should take a look at http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ and try it out for a location you know – maybe your home town, or maybe Faslane. Russian ICBM warheads range from about 250 Kt to 20 Mt.

    You won’t like it.

  • BrianFujisan

    John.

    most scots don’t want the things here.. and that £500 could go towards the 500 jobs.. I had a big facebook argument with a Unionist who kept insisting Faslane employed Thousands of Locals.

    Also there’s the £100 billion to replace the WMD’s –

    Replacing Trident with a new nuclear weapons system will cost at least £100 billion. To put this huge amount of money into perspective, this money could pay for:

    ► Fully funding all A&E services in hospitals for 40 years

    ► Employing 150,000 new nurses

    ► Building 1.5 million new homes

    ► Tuition fees for 4 million students

    ► Insulating 15 million homes

    And The F%@$#&=£$£$ Subs can sure Ruin a beautiful day here on the Clyde 🙁

  • Robert Crawford

    Craig.

    Should an enemy attack, then they destroy Scotland not England,

    If the cowboys make a mistake, they blow Glasgow off the map, not London, say.

    In the Laws of life, don’t defecate on your own doorstep, defecate on someone else’s, e.g. Scotland’s.

    __________________________________

    I have never met wee Johnny the barber, I have nothing against him. However, when the SNP rejected you, in favour of John McNally, given the obvious gap in knowledge and experience, that is when the SNP lost my vote.

    If I had another chance to vote for my Independence, I would do so. In the mean time the SNP can live without my help. So there.

  • Macky

    Craig; “I think that pushes the parallel far enough”

    “Going too far is often the best way of revealing the Truth.”

    A mangled paraphrase of a quote I read somewhere once !

  • MJ

    “Scotland must not be a WMD based economy”

    I expect you mean the UK rather than just Scotland. Corbyn’s
    answer to the employment issue is to protect jobs and skills in the defence sector by investing in “socially productive” hi-tech industry and infrastructure projects.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Tom Welsh
    31/08/2015 12:09pm

    Many thousands more were executed for witchcraft than executed by the Inquisition. I’ve seen estimates of tens to hundreds of thousands.

    It seems that accusations of witchcraft were often used for purposes of plunder and self-enrichment. Churches have been filled with such lovely people, for so long.

    Kind regards,

    John

  • glenn

    GSD: “Not good at all. Imagine being one of the people put out of work.

    Oh come on. When was that argument ever given the time of day, as the Tories destroyed communities by the hundred as they shut down coal mines, steel plants, and ravaged manufacturing and textile industries across the land?

    Besides, you could pension off each of the Faslane workers with a £Million, and still save hugely on the £100Billion that Trident renewal will cost. And that’s assuming nuclear weapons themselves are entirely benign, of course.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    BrianFujisan
    31/08/2015 12:12pm

    I fully agree, and I do not think Trident should be retained. I hope that my first posting made that very clear.

    But if people lose their jobs due to benign policies you don’t just say “tough luck”. They’re not demons for working where they do. They should receive proper assistance.

    Kind regards,

    John

  • Bugger le Panda

    Compare and contrast Osborne’s phantom 6,500 jobs and Ferguson Marine’s expansion plans of real and hopefully, sustainable jobs which will not lead to nuclear explosions, waste and fall out.

  • KingOfWelshNoir

    I would never condemn a man for working in an armaments factory if it was the only way he could feed his family. I would condemn instead the system that presented him such an iniquitous choice.

    Although in this case, I agree with Glen. You could probably pension off all the workers with the money saved from decommissioning this hugely unnecessary phallic symbol.

    But then if we got rid of it, how would we protect ourselves from terrorists? 🙂

  • nevermind

    Such a deep water harbour is perfect for the construction of ships, yachts of any kind, fisheries and offshore supplies for alternative energy developments all spring to mind, so the jobs issue might not even arise.

    unless it is a decision taken in the same mind set such as Osborne’s.

    Clearly he can’t see beyond his four year horizon, could not imagine that preparations and planning for a move to Portsmouth or such like, would demands funding of a chain of institutions. Another example of the in build short sightedness of the British political system, swinging like a pendulum, but never going forward building. Or of its deviousness, leaving this episode to the next opposition Government, very likely a coalition, who then will be howled at by the empirical/tribal establishment, should they so much as to scrap Trident rather than move it.

    Corbyn ought to take up the cudgel against the miniturisation of nuclear weapons, because a world that is increasingly polarising according to Darwins power of the fittest is in dire need of a balancing move towards unilateralism, to show that you do not need nuclear weapons to exist.

    The NNPT should add the aim to nuclear disarmament into their rules, because their sheer existence threatens third party innocent countries, humanities UN-mutated future existence like no other. What good is non proliferation? Its a come on to all wannabe’s, so why not have a timed goal towards nuclear disarmament?

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Nevermind
    31/08/2015 12:35pm

    Oh, my goodness, the NNPT has had disarmament in its rules since Day One!

    I’ll post up the relevant Article.

    In my opinion the lack of progress towards disarmament, which is required by the Treaty, shows the utter hypocrisy of our governments.

    Kind regards,

    John

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Nevermind
    31/08/2015 12:35pm

    “Article VI

    Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.”

    http://www.un.org/en/conf/npt/2005/npttreaty.html

    Kind regards,

    John

  • Macky

    Sorry but can’t help noticing this little contradiction; if Craig keeps telling us that Russia is such a threat & and is hell-bent on Empire building, surely he should be happy that UK can deter any such feared Russian designs, or does he really want to hand all our security & destiny over to the US, as he has also recently stated that NATO should be disbanded !?

  • nevermind

    Thanks for that chocolate teapot link, John…….:)
    Looks like they got stuck on ‘at an early date and to nuclear disarmament’.

    And a first use must be more likely than nuclear disarmament, would you not agree?
    Further, a comprehensive space treaty and the use of it, should we not get too inundated with the junk up there, has also stalled a long time ago as usurping seemingly counts for more than sharing.
    How can one have confidence in a treaty with little inertia when no one wants to take the next step?

  • nevermind

    Any company assembling offshore equipment of any kind would rip of your right arm for such deep water facility.
    I’m sure that some Tories could think of a friend or two, who they could sell the concrete buildings to for next to nothing, well and a bakshish in some kind.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Nevermind
    31/08/2015 1:06pm

    Was it my link that was useless? I’m not quite sure why.

    Kind regards,

    John

  • BrianFujisan

    Cheers Glen.. Forgot the Link too.

    John

    I can see where you’re coming from a soul losing their Job, kid’s going Hungry, wife in tears..Bills…Bills
    But i think it’s mostly Lunatics in control, that plus the very real Dangers of Accidental nuclear war, there has been many Close calls already, Twenty og Which can be found Here –

    http://nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/issues/accidents/20-mishaps-maybe-caused-nuclear-war.htm

    I have had a facebook page going for some years now..in tribute to Stanislav Petrov.. Whom i see is missing from that list

    Also with regards Which Hunts John.. there is a Chunky mark video where Sukant Chandan mentions millions of witches killed, at the start of the Empire Building Process… it’s ahem Spell binding viewing..i’ll try find for ya.

    Bugger Le Panda.

    Yes indeed. After Thatchers Destruction of Clyde shipyards Port Glasgow was left Just Fergusons.. And they have just been given a Huge £97 m Contract to build two Cal Mac Ferries 🙂

  • Anon1

    “Chucking out Trident will cause job losses. Good.”

    If you were wondering why you were not deemed suitable for the SNP then this sort of comment provides yet another good illustration.

    Any party opposing Trident has to make the argument very carefully about how jobs will be safeguarded. To just scoff “Good” at the thousands of people who would lose their livelihoods you are volunteering ammunition to your opponents and no party would want someone who takes this kind of antagonistic approach, not when they have spent years building up a movement and some off-the-wall wrecker shows up in Scotland and does their opponents’ work for them. You do it time and again and that is why you have ended up isolating yourself.

  • JCPOA

    Forgetting Faslane for the moment, we may be on the fast lane to Armageddon. So just what exactly is this message that the anti-Christ wannabe needs to deliver personally to Cameron at 10 Downing, has Murdoch supplied some telling hacking info to Bibi? What kind of grassy knoll surprise awaits us, its another 1964 existential threat, its Netanyahu’s Ben-Gurion moment. Or is it all one big hype, Arkush has elready been called into the fray, where is Wellby when you need him they must be thinking. Interesting 18 days ahead we can expect all assets to be brought into play.

  • Mary

    With CameraOn pushing off to lucrative City directorships in the not too distant future, Gideon sees himself as his successor (God help us even more in that case!) and is doing some early electioneering.

    The extra ‘jobs’ amount to 1,500.

    ‘From 2020, Faslane will be the Royal Navy’s “Submarine Centre of Specialisation” which means all of the UK’s underwater capability will be based in Scotland.

    The Ministry of Defence also expect to base Successor class submarines at Faslane when they come into service from 2028.

    The base currently hosts about 6,700 military and civilian staff and contractors, but that figure is expected to increase to about 8,200 by 2022.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34101989

  • Techno

    glenn: “the Tories destroyed communities by the hundred as they shut down coal mines, steel plants, and ravaged manufacturing and textile industries across the land?”

    The nasty Tories did not shut down anything directly, they refused to subsidise loss-making industries with tax money. The coal mining industry started shutting down under Labour in the 1960s, and the behaviour of striking miners in the 1970s and 1980s did not help at all. Manufacturing and textiles were all moving to the far east where labour per hour is cheaper. British workers were simply too expensive.

  • Dr Paul

    An academic at King’s College London informed me that Britain has not had an independent nuclear weapon since Blue Steel was cancelled some 50 years back. One can’t fire a Trident missile unless you have the requisite codes: and these are provided by the USA. In short, London has to ask Washington’s permission to fire one. It’s like buying a shotgun, and only being allowed to use it if the shop-keeper gives you permission to do so. The British nuclear weapon capability is basically a massive subsidy to the US defence industry.

  • Mark Golding

    The pathetic and flaccid response from Deputy First Minister John Swinney who called the £500 million spending on Faslane as a ‘wrong priority’ underlines the ambivalence I offered in the last thread concerning the demise of Corbyn.

    The announcement is nicely timed to aggravate the divisions in the Labour party over the UK’s nuclear deterrent, is a “precursor” to the confirmation that Trident will be renewed and more importantly the start of a plot to fuck the stances taken by Jeremy Corbyn.

    Heads up! the project is worth £100 billion over time with plenty of $dollars flowing into government coffers. The Western oligarths get richer and more richer with their cash hoards flowing to the poor (you & I) in the form of debt – private debt that supports the £850 billion government debt.

    In the 1960’s British people borrowed about a quarter of their disposable income. Today it has grown to 6 times that – more like 150% – by 2018 personal debt will have to rise to 180% of disposable income. Public expenditure, stealth tax increases and a 2-3% interest rate increase will witness around 12 million UK households fucked – on the streets – and social cohesion in chaos.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34105701

  • Pan

    @John Spencer-Davis

    31 Aug, 2015 – 12:23 pm “They’re not demons for working where they do.”

    What are they then? Angels?

    @KingOfWelshNoir

    31 Aug, 2015 – 12:34 pm “I would never condemn a man for working in an armaments factory if it was the only way he could feed his family.”

    Working in a bomb factory is NEVER the only way to feed a family.

    I ALWAYS condemn the men, but especially the women (who should know better than the men) who build these foul manifestations of evil.

    I would sooner starve to death than work for an industry that is responsible for the killing and maiming of innocent men, women and children all over the globe.

    Just my humble, but honest opinion.

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