Exactly twenty years ago the European Court of Human Rights found that the British Government had acted illegally in shooting dead three IRA members in Gibraltar, even though the court accepted that the government had a genuine belief that they were planning a bombing attack. Indeed the court accepted the victims were terrorists, and refused compensation to their families on those grounds. But the court refused to accept there was no possibility of foiling the plot through methods other than summary execution.
In the light of the decision that Operation Flavius contravened Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, it is difficult to understand how the government can claim its killing of British men in Syria, with no trial, is anything other than murder. I personally find it difficult to imagine technically how men journeying in a car in Syria were imminently able to instantly wreak havoc in the UK so that it was impossible to prevent by any method other than their execution without trial. The level of certainty required for that decision would involve sufficient knowledge of what was to happen in the UK to stop it here. If there was vagueness about what was actually to happen in the UK, there cannot have been the certainty about the threat claimed. It is a logical impasse.
Frankly in twenty years of experience working with British security services their level of accuracy (remember Iraqi WMD) was never that good. And everybody is fortunately now deeply sceptical about the continual claims by the security services that there are thousands of dedicated Islamic terrorists in the UK conducting hundreds of plots every year, and yet miraculously never actually managing to kill anybody.
Just in case anybody had not worked out yet that the Guardian is a disgraceful neo-con rag, it has an article by its “legal correspondent” Joshua Rozenberg, married to the even more rabid Zionist militarist Melanie Phillips (who still believes the Iraqi WMD exist, hidden in the bed of the Euphrates). Rozenberg assures us it is absolutely legal for the British government to kill us without trial if it wants. He even suggests the murdered Mr Khan would not object:
“If he was waging war on British troops and civilians, he can hardly complain the UK’s armed forces were one step ahead of him.”
Astonishingly for a lawyer, the disgraceful Rozenberg does not seem to notice that the opening “if” is rather important. “If Mr Jones was engaged in insurance fraud, he can hardly complain at being banged up for twenty years”, so according to Mr Rozenberg we can dispense with all that nonsense about trials and evidence and just take the government’s word for it. Not to mention that the government has now instituted summary execution without trial in a country that does not even have the death penalty.
As I have argued, it is not unusual for British people to go to fight abroad. There were British citizens in the Israeli Defence Forces participating in the massacre of Palestinian civilians in Gaza last year. Our neo-con governments of both blue and red Tories have positively encouraged the mercenary companies Executive Outcomes/Sandline/Aegis of Tony Buckingham and Tim Spicer. There are Britons fighting now in the Ukraine. We started by positively encouraging factions in the Syrian civil war, with the Saudis and CIA arming and training them and some of those factions helped constitute ISIL. There is no evidence at all that Islamic State had any interest in attacks in the UK until we started to attack it. (That is not to say it is not a very bad organisation and did not commit actions against UK citizens in its “Caliphate area”. But it did not threaten the UK).
For the government to claim the right to kill British people through sci-fi execution, based on highly unreliable secret intelligence and a secret declaration of legality, is so shocking I find it difficult to believe it is happening even as I type the words. Are we so cowed as to accept this?
Craig has a new post which I have yet to read. A long title and a lengthy piece.
Exclusive: I Can Reveal the Legal Advice on Drone Strikes, and How the Establishment Works
by craig on September 9, 2015 2:17 pm
Peter Broomstick (14h14)
Well, I’m glad I helped you remember what the American “plan” was , after you said you had no idea.
You see, Broomstick old chap, I may not be up to speed but reading me does wonders for your memory. 🙂
habbabkuk, the 3 student murders were ‘investigated’ instantly and within days the culprits were convicted (shot) and had their former homes demolished. I thought with you having such respect and knowledge of Israel you might have gathered some good contacts over the years, that is why I asked for your opinion. Moreover, I guessed your reply would be as non-committal as it was. It has been 38 days and no charges for the firebombing that killed two parents, one son and left the other son with 60 degree burns. If those settlements had been UK council estates, they would have been turned in by now. Such murderous bastards wouldn’t be tolerated even in the most notoriously criminal areas.
Isn’t it time that this leading light in the Middle East, as you constantly tell us, bring these callous murderers to justice?
2.11pm There is an unwritten acknowledgment there that Netanyahu and Cameron are war criminals but have escaped arrest – so far. Early days! Early days!
Suggest a read of Craig’s new post. Verrrrry interesting. Names and their allegiances are named.
“RoS Strange that the SOMA story has re-emerged. As far I can see, there has been no advance since it first broke. No collars have been felt.”
____________________
Yes Mary you may well be right the story surfaced again in the National newspaper, it could be just a rehash of the earlier one no link only paper version I’m afraid.
Soma Oil and Gas denying any wrong doing, the link below is a more recent one but still not as recent as the Nationals.
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/08/04/423262/-British-oil-company-Soma-Oil-and-Gas-somalia-Lord-Michael-Howard
” Suggest a read of Craig’s new post. ”
It’s 1515 and it’s just vanished! Technical hitch or have the lawyers been on the ‘phone?
Habb, Anon1.
I just found it rather peculiar that France a relatively prosperous country with a excellent health service coupled by a well developed migrant community already in place would…well be snubbed by the 3500 already in France.
Natacha Bouchart the mayoress of Calais with exception of the 10% wishing to remain in France.
“All others (refugees/immigrants) want to come to England, we in Calais are going round in circles. Even if we opened up our borders to say 50,000 places, in France, they would not claim asylum in France.”
Bouchart added.
“The impression that Britain is a comfortable place to live, is a major factor for those arriving in Calais. It is the families who are already in England who pass on the message to those in Calais of the ease of life in England, that’s why they’re ready to die to claim asylum in Britain.”
“I don’t think the people posting negative comments on that Facebook page are independence supporters. Anyone can post to it.”
They are certainly Nationalists and Ethnic Nationalists to boot. It’s been obvious all along that no matter how much the SNP purports to be Civic Nationalist they were going to attract large numbers of Ethnic Nationalists.
Talking of posting abusive comments, the Britnats aren’t shy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/britnatabusebot
Mary
“2.11pm There is an unwritten acknowledgment there that Netanyahu and Cameron are war criminals but have escaped arrest – so far.”
________________
Sigh…..I keep forgetting you don’t do irony, Mary.
Twoleftfeet
No, you didn’t ask for my opinion because of my greater knowledge of Israel (compared to yours); you asked for it to round off a number of claims you made, presumably in the hope of somehow reinforcin them.
And it is not for me to brief you on ongoing investigation, even if I knew about them. It is for you – who raised the matter and who made a number of claims about them – to back up what you say. After all, why should we believe your claims just on your say-so?
38 days without result yet for an investigation within a community rather more tightly-knit than the ridiculous example of the British council estate you gave does not surprise me very much. How long did it take for Stephen Lawrence’s murderers to be finally nailed?
Over and out, laddie, you’re just a candidate member of the Egregiousness of Excellences (Israel Chapter).
There was a book written about the summary execution of IRA members in Northern Ireland by a dedicated 4 man SAS team back in the 70’s, written by one of its members detailing their activities and revealing the locations of the mass graves in which they dumped their victims.
The book was called “The Nemesis File” and the author Baul Bruce.
I’m astonished that it recieved so little acknowledgement and attention. It was well written and I thought it had the ring of truth.
His story made the Gibralter killings look like small beer.
Ms Kuenssberg gives Jeremy a little kick in the shins under cover of this heading.
Labour leadership: Jeremy Corbyn ‘was urged to quit contest’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34198261
It’s called ‘analysis’.
Analysis by Laura Kuenssberg, BBC political editor
‘This gives an intriguing picture of how despite the hype, even some of his senior supporters have concerns about his mission and its long term impact on Labour’s fortunes. As the former Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, who knows Corbyn well, suggested, perhaps the person who is most terrified about Jeremy Corbyn winning is Jeremy Corbyn.
Despite the clamour of the summer, there is not enough reliable data, nor understanding of the implications of the new expanded electorate to predict the result with any confidence.
And in the last couple of weeks the fizz has gone out of the Corbyn campaign and both Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham’s teams report support coming their way.
But if Mr Corbyn does win, he may well be haunted by a sense that he didn’t really want the job in the first place.’
poster @ 3.37pm omitted Early Days! Early Days! from the cut and paste of my post on the Netanyahu protest.
That brings me to this most peculiar state of affairs in the ‘only democracy in the Middle East’.
‘Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and President Reuven Rivlin have not spoken for nearly two months, the president revealed Tuesday.
Relations between the two have been particularly strained since Rivlin openly criticized Netanyahu for his combative stance toward US President Barack Obama.
Their last meeting took place July 17. Till then, the two had met at least once each month since Rivlin’s election last year.
Netanyahu reportedly met with Rivlin’s predecessor Shimon Peres every two weeks over dinner.’
/..
http://www.timesofisrael.com/president-says-he-is-no-longer-speaking-to-prime-minister/
David Stewart
“There was a book written about the summary execution of IRA members in Northern Ireland by a dedicated 4 man SAS team back in the 70’s, written by one of its members detailing their activities and revealing the locations of the mass graves in which they dumped their victims.
The book was called “The Nemesis File” and the author Baul Bruce.
I’m astonished that it recieved so little acknowledgement and attention. It was well written and I thought it had the ring of truth.
His story made the Gibralter killings look like small beer.”
________________
It probably caused so little fuss because most people felt that the IRA chaps killed had it coming to them.
By the way, I hope you weren’t intentionally trying to give a false impression when you wrote “the summary execution of IRA members”?
That gives the impression that the SAS went round indiscriminatingly killing any old IRA member. But as you know – and as the book also says – the IRA members killed were those about whom there was strong evidence that they themselves were responsible for the killing of British servicemen and RUC members and/or bombings.
Mary’s giving the BBC’s excellent Laura Kuenssberg another little kick in the shins under cover of nothing in particular.
Thank God Laura’s not Jewish, otherwise there would have been no holding Mary back.
As it is, we have learnt over time that Mary has a particular animus against successful women in any field of endeavour. 🙂
Diversion and distraction there by a troll, again.
Stick to the point which was that this is yet another attack by the media on Jeremy Corbyn.
“Stick to the point which was that this is yet another attack by the media on Jeremy Corbyn.”
_______________________
That may be your point, Mary, but it is not the point of this thread, nor indeed of the immediately preceding posters.
The days when you might have dictated the run of discussions on threads disappeared with my arrival.
This appears to be such small beer in the context of who our host is that I feel compelled to write.
Are these Chilcot distractions? Will Corbyn be allowed into the Privy Council, will his words be misrepresented often, will the left eat itself? Perfectly valid questions except for the elephant in the room which was Iraq. 2 dumb kids getting their brains obliterated for being stupid is not the Dangerous Dogs Act, it’s The Croydon Gazette.
This whole argument appears like a circle jerk for people who are paid more than me getting back from their holidays and the intercept evidence was fucking public. These weren’t pissed cousins at our Sandra’s wedding – these were the fucks who robbed the guests. It’s a great debate but there’s work to be done and shit.
Down with mini pork pies!
The troll is punctilious in never sticking to the subject of the threads of course. Most comments are ad hominems to a variety of posters.
David Stewart
09/09/2015 4:01pm
“The Nemesis File” was generally ridiculed when it came out even by people one might have imagined would take it seriously. I remember it being given a thorough kicking by Private Eye, for example.
I own a copy and I agree that it is well-written and of considerable human interest. The technical detail in the book is beyond me but I believe most commentators have pointed out that it is riddled with error. People have also made attempts to trace the events recounted in the book to actual events and have not met with success, I understand.
I suppose that could all be viewed as an attempt to bury an unwelcome whistleblower. But I think it did not make more of an impact because the general opinion across the spectrum was: “Hoax – forget it”.
Kind regards,
John
bbcnews special report today exposing use of chemical weapons. right on cue.
“I hate to think what the manufactured trigger will be but my guess is we will not have to wait long to find out.”
bbcnews special report today from syria ‘exposing’ use of chemical weapons. despite syria being declared free of chem weapons. bbc suggesting secret cache, right on cue.
The author of The Nemesis File was taken in for questioning by the (then) RUC and quickly admitted that the book was an entire work of fiction. It is riddled with errors, incorrect details about weapons the SAS never used and so forth and Bruce (whose real name is Paul Inman) has no record whatsoever of having served as a trooper in the SAS. Inmans military record shows that he served in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers and his service in Northern Ireland was confined to a four-month tour from February-June 1972 during which time he worked as a vehicle mechanic rather than as part of a clandestine assassination squad. Even Sinn Fein dismissed the book as “outlandish”.