Mourning A Terrorist 445


The aim of this blog is to put forward reasonable points of view not easily found elsewhere, and it is important not to shy away from saying things because they run directly contrary to the popular mood. The stabbing of three people in Streatham was a tragedy, and while all are recovering, the mental and perhaps physical damage will be life-changing. But the death of the terrorist, Sudesh Amman, is also a human tragedy. The government’s populist response – to lock up those convicted of terrorist offences for ever longer and to seek to ban early release, even retrospectively – is crass and will make the situation worse, not better.

Sudesh Amman died aged only twenty. He had been jailed at eighteen for crimes committed when he was just seventeen. It is vital to state that those crimes were thought crimes – before he went to jail, Sudesh Amman had never been accused of attacking anyone. He was jailed for the terrorist fantasies he harboured as a child. Whether he would ever actually have attacked anybody had he never been sent to jail is a question it is impossible to answer. That he attacked people after being sent to jail is a simple fact.

That is not to downplay the idea he was a dangerous child. He had expressed the ambition to be a terrorist, posted violent fantasy online, downloaded posts on bomb-making and had acquired a combat knife and an air pistol. He may have gone on to carry out an attack. Or it may all have been just the bluster and rage of a frustrated child in a single parent family of five kids living in unpleasant circumstances.

It seems to me that intervention by the state was entirely reasonable in view of the seventeen year old’s state of mind. It is not at all obvious to me that branding a child, who had never attacked anybody, as a “terrorist”, thus destroying his prospects in life, convicting him of terrorist thought crime as soon as he turned eighteen, and sending him to prison to mix with hardened criminals and actual terrorists, was a sensible way for the state to intervene. By fueling his sense of alienation and injustice, that seems to me a course of action almost guaranteed to ensure that this child would emerge from prison as a twenty year old determined to commit an actual terrorist attack. Which is of course exactly what happened, and the death of young Sudesh Amman himself was the inevitable end of the tragedy.

SUDESH AMMAN

A seventeen year old harbouring fantasies of gross violence, but who has not carried those fantasies into action, should be a mental health issue not a criminal law issue. The state intervention should have been aimed at making Sudesh well and with future prospects in life. That may have involved a period of involuntary in-patient treatment, and we should have facilities that can provide that without branding young people terrorists before they have done anything violent.

It is of course worth noting also that with Sudesh as with so many others, if the UK had not invaded or attacked Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, his sense of injustice towards Muslims, which he fantasised about fighting to correct, would never have arisen in the first instance.

The idea that in future the answer is to lock away youngsters for life for thinking wrong, is at the moment extremely popular and helping the Tories surf still higher on their wave of xenophobic acclaim. That will simply stoke more grievance and create more terrorism. No matter how unpopular, those of us who try to think calmly and sensibly have a duty to oppose the baying of the mob.

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445 thoughts on “Mourning A Terrorist

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  • DiggerUK

    Reaction, and the simple answers reactionaries put forward, never seem to ask the right questions or put up plausible solutions …..asking why any youth would decide to willingly be enamoured by head chopping monsters, when the opportunities that exist in developed countries for an affluent life are obviously available is one such question.

    That affluence is not universally available, but even the poorest here have a ‘standard’ of living unavailable to most in the areas of the world where poverty, devastation and oppression is the norm. Living somewhere where armies traipse around looking for WMD and facilitating regime change doesn’t help either.

    The feeling of disenfranchisement that must be experienced by youth like Sudesh Amman is beyond my pay grade to comprehend. Lack of respect, opportunities denied and blatant discrimination can lead anyone to understand why a sense of complete alienation leads youth like Sudesh to just say “fuck you lot” and act as he did.

    I am a freeborn in a country that has a rich culture of works by authors such as Milton against censorship. To jail someone for reading foolish things is the real crime here…_

    • Jeremy Smith

      Priti Patel now stripping British jihadis of their citizenship is yet another cheapskate non-solution to the same problem – just leaving the rubbish we created for the Kurds to clear up & washing our hands of the matter. Diabolical behaviour.

    • Tom Welsh

      “I am a freeborn in a country that has a rich culture of works by authors such as Milton against censorship. To jail someone for reading foolish things is the real crime here…”

      Exactly so, DiggerUK.

      “And though all the winds of doctrine were let loose upon the earth, so truth be in the field we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple; who ever knew truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter…”
      – John Milton, “Areopagitica”

      • lysias

        The powers that be no longer are willing to allow freedom of speech and thought, because they know that their system has become such that they will lose a free argument.

        There is at least a case that industrial capitalism benefits the bulk of the population. There is no such case for financial capitalism, which only benefits a small minority.

  • Tom Welsh

    “A seventeen year old harbouring fantasies of gross violence, but who has not carried those fantasies into action, should be a mental health issue not a criminal law issue”.

    No. It should be neither. What a young man thinks, or says, or writes is his business only. Either one believes in free speech, or one does not.

    “The state intervention should have been aimed at making Sudesh well and with future prospects in life. That may have involved a period of involuntary in-patient treatment…”

    One other thing. At the risk of being categorized as a “grammar Nazi”, I wonder if anyone else thought that last sentence should have read “That might have involved…”?

    “That may have involved” implies that perhaps it did, in reality, involve a period of involuntary in-patient treatment. The use of “might” makes it explicit that such an eventuality could, or could not have happened.

    The usage, which is becoming more and more widespread, is just one more crude Americanism. I find it disturbing when educated Scots start employing it.

    (Incidentally, I am not a grammar Nazi. I am a logic Nazi).

    • Iain Stewart

      You’ve never read any of Craig’s books, I hazard, where Craigspeak is part of their charm, although less inventive than some of the idiosyncratic spelling and civil service syntax used in the blog. “Rooves” was my favourite.

      • Tom Welsh

        At least “rooves” is logical.

        My main objection to the use of “may” instead of “might” is that loses a great deal of meaning which might be very important in some cases.

        I certainly cannot criticize anyone for hasty or careless writing, as anyone who has read my comments here can testify.

      • craig Post author

        My Oxford Reference Dictionary lists “rooves”, but as “disp” = disputed. I maintain it. I haven’t got an OED but google tells me OED says “rooves” is “outdated but not incorrect”.
        I would certainly not view “roofs” as a correct guide to pronunciation. Rooves is pronounced exactly as hooves. The pronunciation “roofs” is Estuary English.

        • Vivian O'Blivion

          As for the pronunciation of “roof” being Estuary English, I’ve always pronounced the “f” in my broad Weegie.
          Reference to my Scots dictionary gives ceiling or canopy as “ruif”.

        • Iain Stewart

          (People who actually build roofs are common, so why pay any attention to them?) George Bernard Shaw would probably have agreed that it’s part of that delightful English whimsy, like spelling fish “ghoti”.

      • Tom Welsh

        Thanks, lysias! I honestly sometimes wonder if it can be only me who sees any problem.

        Another solecism that affects me like nails on a black board is “such that” instead of “so that”; and again, most people – including the well-educated and intelligent – don’t even seem to notice the difference.

        • Tom Welsh

          Aaaaaaargh! I am doing it myself now.

          Of course I should have written “if it can only be I”.

          Apologies all round.

          • Borncynical

            Tom

            Don’t be too harsh on yourself! According to Fowler’s Modern English Usage:

            “The use of ‘me’ in colloquialisms such as ‘It’s me” and “It wasn’t me” is perhaps the only successful attack by ‘me’ on ‘I’….[these solecisms, along with e,g, ‘That’s him’] are sanctioned in colloquial usage.”

          • Tom Welsh

            Thanks, Borncynical. I used to be much more purist than I am now. One thing that helped to change my perceptions was comparison with other languages.

            French people say “C’est moi”. To say “C’est je” would sound ridiculous.

            The Germans, as I recall, avoid the issue by saying “Ich bin es”.

  • bevin

    In an earlier era young men, harbouring violent fantasies, actually set out and attempted terrorist attacks. One such, apprehended in Liverpool at an age not much younger than the dead boy from Streatham reached before he was jailed, was Brendan Behan.
    He wrote a book telling of his experiences and, most notably, of the state’s response to his crime: Borstal Boy. Worth reading on several levels it is particularly interesting to contrast the State then, and its agents with the current regime. Brendan Behan became an important and most useful contributor to our culture. And partly at least because it was not then- in the middle of an IRA bombing campaign- considered acceptable to shoot suspects on sight.
    Of course in those days crime and punishment were public concerns not so many profit centres to be auctioned off to the lowest bidder.

  • Laguerre

    Just for a bit of history. The idea of jihad is very ancient in Islam. The word jihad itself doesn’t mean very much – effort or application in the religion, found in the Qur’an, often used also for perfectly peaceable activities. It was applied later (9th century) to an already existing phenomenon of individuals going out out voluntarily to fight for Islam against the infidels. One famous case is an invasion of Byzantine Anatolia by Harun al-Rashid at the end of the 8th century, where the regular army was accompanied by 70,000 unpaid volunteers. I suspect, though it is only my own opinion, there not being much textual evidence, that this free pool was exploited by the politicians of the time to create lines of defence, called ribats (as seen in Tunisia), and houses of raiders, like that funded by the mother of the caliph al-Mutawakkil (847-861) in Tarsus. All the characteristics of modern Jihadism are there, except for suicide. It is quite well accepted that jihadism provided the ideas for the Crusades.

    The anti-Crusade led to developments of the rhetoric, but more importantly to the notion of suicide attacks, as carried out by the Assassins, explosive weapons not existing at the time. The Assassins were an extremist sect, with a belief in bodily resurrection, and a castle at Alamut in Iran. So they assassinated political leaders with no care of survival.

    All this comes together in the modern period (I skip a lot) with the Saudis employing jihadis, inspired by Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, to create their modern kingdom, and then massacring them in the 1930s, as inconvenient. But a pro-jihadi sentiment remains, and they’re still paying, much as the mother of al-Mutawakkil did.

    There’s another element to mention here, as giyane has brought it up. Jihad is against non-Muslims. If you want to war against other Muslims, they are either declared heretics (Shi’a or Yazidis, who are in fact a once Muslim sect), or non-Muslims, for some reason. The main attack of Da’ish was firstly against the heretics (yazidis) and then against the Sunni cult of saints. The destruction of pre-Islamic Assyrian remains was only a third choice unimportant effect, but something done to annoy the westerners.

    • Laguerre

      Jihadism has of course come back to the fore, because of the Western attacks on Islam, as perceived by Muslims, as mentioned elsewhere here, and the exploitation of jihadis by the US in Afghanistan, etc. A clever trick, thought US planners, and look what the consequences are of that ill-thought out policy. In the 1970s jihadism was dead, other than events such as the siege of the mosque in Mecca (1979).

  • Brianfujisan

    Well Said Craig.. The System is so corrupt, on this Issue.

    And so many Double Treacherous Standards on Display.
    Sudesh Amman was Shot dead…Yet …

    The Royal Navy Rescued Salman Abedi from the civil war in Libya three years before he killed 22 people at a pop concert,- If we Recall – This is the Manchester Concert Bomber.

    I remember Telling a Unionist Friend that this would eventually happen Regarding UK / US / NATO wars of Aggression… and War Crimes..And that It would affect us all…So he pats his back pocket ” it doesn’t concern me and my pocket ” I replied that it Will.. ” Just Wait ”

    And then a few years later he is in tears..Because of the Murder of Eilidh MacLeod at the Ariana Grande Concert.. Because he works with Eilidh’s dad

    Eilidh was from the From Outer Hebridean Isle of Vatersay… I too have met Eilidh’s Parents on Vatersay..

    There are Youtube Videos of those young Girls Playing the Pipes as the Oban ferry arrives At Castsle Bay on Barra

  • Lea-Anne Zinke

    The suggestion that you make regarding how to have properly dealt with this young individual is exactly what is happening in China. Who in turn gets accused of locking up Muslims, rather than trying to un-do the damage that years of brainwashing has created for these individuals.

      • andic

        Do they indeed?

        How can anyone take anything you write seriously after this bollocks, has your account been hacked by the CIA, British Nationalists, Tommy Robinson or whatever?

      • Laguerre

        Not all Muslims in China are Uyghurs. There are the native Chinese Hui in central China. They are not treated in the same way.

      • Stonky

        Yeah, but the Chinese do this with ALL Muslims, not just the terrorists…

        This is a complete lie. There are millions of Moslems in China who live their lives free of any interference by the state. In Jilin city, which I know well, there are tens of thousands of Moslems and dozens of mosques, two of which are bigger than anything I have ever seen in the Middle East. They just get on with their daily lives, like all the rest of the population.

        I find it rather ironic that I am expected to champion the cause of people who take their 4 and 5 year old kids and teach them that it is literally true that “God hates all these other people, and he’s going to burn their skins off and keep giving them new skins and burn them off as well…”

        Meanwhile, I am expected to condemn the evil of people who take the victims of this odious brainwashing and try to teach them: “This isn’t actually true. We’re all the same really and we should try and live in harmony…”

        • Laguerre

          The Hui Muslims in central China don’t live free of restrictions. They’re under a lot of pressure now to conform to Chinese rules. It’s a sort of nationalised Islam, rather like the nationalised Catholic church in China, which I’m sure you object to, but when it’s Muslims, it’s OK, they’re free.

          • Stonky

            rather like the nationalised Catholic church in China, which I’m sure you object to…

            Why on earth would you think I object to the nationalised Catholic Church in China? Are you an idiot?

            As far as I’m concerned China has the closest thing to a sane religious policy of any country in the world. Although they call it “freedon to practice religion”, it’s basically: “Worship your non-existent deities and spout your rubbishy drivel all you want. Only do it in these designated places where we can keep an eye on you. And do not under any circumstances take it out on the streets. And if you start trying to turn it into a cause to foment disorder you will feel the steel toecaps of our boots up your backside…”

            If China could get rid of the three Abrahamic religions in their corner of the world they would be doing a great service to humanity. For two thousand years their lying rubbish has been the crucible of a very substantial part of human suffering. In today’s world it is the crucible of most of it. If I was the Devil and I had invented the three Abrahamic religions, I would be lying in my bed every night chortliing with glee.

            But hey. I’m talking to someone who will not hear a word said against one among the three. So why don’t you tell me the three things you love most about the one you’re so keen to champion, and exactly how its precepts fit in with your “left-wing” views?

          • Tom Welsh

            “If China could get rid of the three Abrahamic religions in their corner of the world they would be doing a great service to humanity”.

            Stonky, some of the things I have heard of Chinese people saying seem to distil the very best of Christianity without any of its nastier parts. I suppose it must come from Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, some mixture of the three, or just the maturing of a very ancient and wise civilisation.

            One of my favourites:

            ‘Payne was discussing the American bombing raids on Tokyo the year before, somewhat approvingly, and the Chinese sage was nodding his head in a way that Payne assumed signified complete agreement. It was only after the man began to speak that he realized “for the thousandth time since I came to China that a man who nods his head may actually be expressing the most profound disagreement:

            ‘“I was in Chongqing during the bombardment,” he said. “I have no wish that the Japanese should share the same fate. Nothing is so terrible, nothing is so remorseless, nothing so revolting to the soul as a bombardment. The soul cannot suffer in peace after such indignities. Only now, two years afterward, can I think coolly of what happened, and I now praise God that China for centuries refused to harbour such things. The Chinese knew all about poison gases fifteen centuries ago; we invented an airplane, and quite rightly executed the inventor; we are the only nation that has thought continually of peace. I have no malice against the Japanese, who killed my parents and my brothers. I have pity, but it is not Christian pity, I’m afraid – it is the pity that burns”’.

            Simon Winchester, “The Man Who Loved China: The Fantastic Story Of The Eccentric Scientist Who Unlocked The Mysteries Of The Middle Kingdom”

  • Dungroanin

    The lies formulated and spread by our FUKUS warmongers in creating the headchoppers to fight real mmuslims of the ME and steal their labd and oil has completely FAILED.
    The Johdist proxy army fighters and their insane life denying creed bought for a monthly salary of $$$$ has also failed.
    The western commanders have fled or are dead – fallen from the sky like LeMesurier or just to their villa in the med.

    The liberation of Idlib and Allepo proceeds at pace – the jihadists having been encouraged to destroy what wasn’t pillaged of the ancient remains of the dawn of the golden crescent civilisation – it is irreplaceable and all of it happened in the areas supported and supplied by our fukus forces and nato alley Turkey wjo happily built ‘observation posts in the middle of the Jihadists while supposedly fighting isil jihadists!

    There must be justice.

    • SA

      Turkey is the centre of control of the Jihadis in Syria even though they may financially and logistically be supplied by the Gulf states, KSA and FUKUS. It was very telling how in September October 2015 when Russia started their anti ISIS campaign, they did so by bombing convoys of oil smugglers from Daesh controlled oil fields in Syria to turkey. This was the real beginning of the demise of Da’esh and the west eventually woke up to the exposure of their deception by starting anti Daesh actions and latter claiming that they were the ones that got rid of that curse. Instead they did it to continue to sanitise the stealing of Syrian oil by handing it over to the Kurds. Now they are again caught by their own lies and Turkey is defending al Qaida in Syria without anyone expressing concern. I admire the bravery and no nonsense approach of the Syrian army, backed of course by Russia, if now not baulking at attacking the invaders.

      • Laguerre

        I think you underestimate the Saudi role there. Saudi has a leading role in the support of the jihadis, mainly Da’ish but also HTS.

        • SA

          Yes logistically and with money but the main conduit was Turkey for funnelling resources. I did mention KSA.

  • Rosemary MacKenzie

    Thank you Craig, this post is very well said. Perhaps as well as the British and American interference in the Middle East and other parts of the world fuelling this young person’s sense of injustice, one can look at the internet as part of the problem. It is too easy to monitor what people search for and fantasize about with the internet – I read Edward Snowden’s book Permanent record, quite creepy. Before the internet kids could fantasize on paper or through reading books or comics and nobody would be jumping on them for being ” terrorists”. Any decent reference library has information on bomb making. If Suddesh had looked up bomb making in a library before the internet nobody would have called the police. To criminalize someone and send him/her to prison for reading is ominous. Two years in prison would fry anyones brain, not just Suddesh. I’m not excusing his actions and the consequences for his victims but he wasn’t the sole perpetrator and he was certainly a victim.

  • Antonym

    Islam had its violent streaks also in the early 20th century: take the Moplah rebellion of 1921 in the Malabar. Painted as a rebellion against British colonials, why would the Muslim fighters forcefully try to convert thousands of Hindus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malabar_rebellion#Reactions
    The Armenian genocide between 1914 and 1923 was another example.

    It is only this century that the Atlantic Anglos employed “Jihadis” to defeat enemies of their clients – the Sunni Arab oil sheikhs. Anything to keep the dollar supported by the Arab oil and gas reserves after the gold standard was lost. Money/power is their God.

    • Laguerre

      No more violent than Christians who exterminated Muslims left and right in Spain and Italy and other parts of Europe. Hindus too are massacring Muslims under the Hindu nationalist Modi.

      • Antonym

        Neither Christians nor Hindus have discrimination of other religions baked into their Holy books.
        “Hindus too are massacring Muslims under the Hindu nationalist Modi.” is just a fact less slogan. Muslims have about the most safe and quiet lives of any on this planet in India, contrary to those living West of them.
        The Roman empire’s hijacking of Jesus’ non violent teachings was a massive spiritual fraud only to be surpassed by Mohamed’s legalization of male sexual lust to spread his violent ideology. Hinduism was and is anti-monolithic and thus any excess in some branch can never capture the whole cluster.

        • Laguerre

          “Neither Christians nor Hindus have discrimination of other religions baked into their Holy books.” Sure they do, it’s deep in the Old Testament, therefore both in Judaism and Christianity. In any case it’s what people do, rather than what is in their holy books (which is not much in Islam), and the Hindus, especially under Modi, are as bad as any for ethnic discrimination.

          • SA

            Laguerre
            Notice how craftily Antonym avoids including the religion preceding Christianity in violence and even advocation of genocide against the non believers. You mention the Old Testsment but it’s relationship with Christianity is somewhat problematic. It can be seen as part of the teachings of Christianity and in fact many sermons in current churches often take stories from the OT but it can also be seen as a warning of history that has been superseded. My memory is a bit dim but I recall how Jesus has said that his religion of love thy neighbour as thyself was supposed to replace the old teachings of hatred and dissent.

          • Tom Welsh

            “You mention the Old Testsment but it’s relationship with Christianity is somewhat problematic”.

            If you study the matter, SA, I think you will find that Jesus said very little – if anything – that cannot be found in the Old Testament.

            The big difference lies in all the things in the Old Testament that he did not repeat.

      • Stonky

        No more violent than Christians who exterminated Muslims left and right in Spain and Italy and other parts of Europe…

        Does it ever occur to you that there might actually have been people already living in “Spain and Italy and other parts of Europe” before the Moslems invited themselves in? People who didn’t particularly want to be coerced into becoming Moslems, or killed for not being Moslems, or ruled over by Moslems?

        But hey. I guess you think Brtain’s colonial empire was a great thing, and the British had every right to plank themselves wherever they chose, and anybody who fought against them “left and right” deserves nothing but condemnation…

        • Laguerre

          I don’t think Muslims had any more or less right than anyone else. Did the Normans from northern France, for example, have any greater right to Sicily than the Tunisians, in a land formerly ruled by Byzantines from Constantinople? Nobody forced people to become Muslim, and certainly Christians were not (there was a special law) – that’s just the usual fake cr*p from the Islam-haters. The truth was the reverse: Muslims were forced very frequently to become Christian at the point of the sword. Most Muslims in medieval Europe were voluntary local conversions, but they were not allowed to stay, and pushed out to North Africa along the Jews, those who did not suffer worse.

          • Stonky

            Great post Laguerre. I now understand that the Moors had every right to occupy Spain and Italy and France and basically wherever else they chose because these were great big eimpty spaces until the Moors came along.

            Only you forgot to point out that the British Raj in India was a great thing because basically these were just great big empty spaces before the Brits came along. And it was a time of tremendous peace and plenty. And we allowed the Hindus to carry on being Hindus. Oh and we taught them arithmetic or something.

            Most Muslims in medieval Europe were voluntary local conversions…

            Just to be clear here Laguerre. Have you spoken to all of the Muslim conversions in medieval Europe? Or just nearly all of them?

          • Laguerre

            “Have you spoken to all of the Muslim conversions in medieval Europe? Or just nearly all of them?”

            It’s what’s in the historical sources.

          • Antonym

            I don’t think Muslims had any more or less right than anyone else. Did the Normans from northern France, for example, have any greater right to Sicily than the Tunisians, in a land formerly ruled by Byzantines from Constantinople?
            Now pour that sauce same topping your European goose on the Israeli /Palestinian gander….

        • Tom Welsh

          “Does it ever occur to you that there might actually have been people already living in “Spain and Italy and other parts of Europe” before the Moslems invited themselves in? People who didn’t particularly want to be coerced into becoming Moslems, or killed for not being Moslems, or ruled over by Moslems?”

          Ironically many of them (the rulers anyway) were Goths and Vandals, who had got there by invading, killing, burning, etc.

          Rinse & repeat…

  • Kim Sanders-Fisher

    An earlier comment from Walter Cairns captured a thought that was running through my mind: “Very valid points Craig. But continue to have problems with the official narrative. Here we have a potential terrorist released with more than a dozen specialist anti-terrorism personnel following his every move, and they allow him to acquire not only a knife but also a suicide vest. The late Hans-Christian Andersen’s collective works contain more believable stories.”

    This potentially dangerous young man they have just released from Belmarsh is under constant surveillance by twenty armed officers, but they didn’t notice he had left home wearing a suicide vest? If he was wearing bulky clothing capable of hiding a suicide vest they could still have ordered him stop while maintaining a safe distance and at a point before he was within blasting range of anyone. While within firing range he is ordered to remove his jacket to reveal a potential vest if he is wearing one. He is then ordered to remove the vest place any weapon he is carrying on the ground and step away from these items with his hands on his head.

    Why didn’t the specialist anti-terrorism personnel following his every move notice that he was buying suspicious items used for bomb making? Why was he able to knife several people before they intervened? At what point did the suspect he was wearing a suicide vest and opt for shoot to kill? I think the general public are being groomed to accept to accept summary execution on our streets in the same way it is acceptable in America: shoot first ask questions later.

    When I was just a teenager in college one of my friends was an American student who left his personal diary lying around and was expelled due to his writings. He appeared to have documented his experiences of an acid trip. Although I had no doubt he took all kinds of illegal drugs, first of all the college had no right to read his private diary and secondly his fanciful writing was not actual proof of drug taking. I tried to plead on his behalf, but they expelled him anyway. We appear to have regressed to a much darker place since then.

    Back in those hippy days disillusioned young people were drawn into cults and brainwashed into a new way of thinking. Wealthy families in the US paid professional teams to “rescue” their teenagers from the cult by kidnapping them against their will. These trained people would then start into the process of deprogramming their irate and uncooperative captive so they were ready to be handed over to their family after the ordeal was over. These were quite successful operations with few returning to cult life. I realize the type of violent radicalization is more serious than most cults, but could some of the same techniques be useful? Deradicalization should involve trusted people from the Muslim faith who can help them interpret the teachings of the Koran in a non-violent way.

    We need to understand that refugees like Salman Abedi, scooped from the war zones our greed has created, often enter this country severely traumatized and in need of psychological support, but do they get the help they need? Of course our relentless foreign wars fuel the outrage that is now being turned against innocent civilians on our streets. Many years ago I sailed into Hudaydah in what was then North Yemen. The Peace Corps told us it was one of the three most impoverished countries on earth: that was before we sold our weapons to the Saudi’s to bomb them into oblivion.

    I am outraged by how our Foreign Office has handled Shamima Begum’s case with her losing the appeal against being made stateless by our government. She was groomed as a teenager and has now lost several children, but there is no sympathy for her. In other situations where young girls fall prey to grooming we offer support. We are also being programmed to accept that British nationality is conditional, where any aberration in behaviour can render you stateless or bundled onto a plane bound for a foreign country you have not seen since early childhood. The injustice of Windrush rumbles on

    Just like the legalized street executions, removing citizenship and deportations will become more commonplace until we become accustomed to these perverse practices and eventually cease to question an increasingly authoritarian regime. Protesters will become routinely criminalized and targeted to control civil unrest. This toxic Tory government is pushing the boundaries in all direction to see how much we will tollerate; we must continue to push back hard.

    • cimarrón

      Why are these ‘terrorists’, who have been through the hands of the security services, shot dead – often with multiple bullets to the brain?

      MK-Ultra was a top-secret CIA project in which the agency conducted hundreds of clandestine experiments – sometimes on unwitting US citizens – to assess the potential use of LSD and other drugs for mind control, information gathering and psychological torture.

      MK-Ultra was officially halted in 1973.

      Could any one really believe that the CIA, with fingers in every dirty pie, would have ceased working on mind-control techniques for over 40 years – when such techniques could be so useful now, and with sanctioned torture available to help the program?

    • Stewart

      So he’s just been released on licence and he’s living in a bail hostel, but he’s also under surveillance by a team of 20 “specialist” officers who (presumably) strongly suspect that he is about to commit a terrorist attack. If that is the case, why was he released in the first place?
      Despite the surveillance, he manages to purchase items to construct a (fake?) suicide vest without arousing the suspicions of this “specialist” team. He then leaves the hostel actually wearing this suicide vest without the “specialists” noticing or intervening.
      He has time to unpackage a knife in a shop and actually stab people before there is any intervention from the “specialists”. The intervention, when it finally does come, is actually a summary execution (what choice did we have? He was wearing a suicide vest!)
      In what universe does this story make any kind of sense?

  • Godfree Roberts

    Suddenly, China’s policies in Xinjiang (imposed only after Uyghurs murdered 2100 citizens) make a great deal of sense: execute a dozen proven killers, jail 11,000 co-conspirators, and teach the remainder to read and write then give them good-paying jobs upon graduation.

      • Stonky

        If it was sarcasm then it was very poorly done. I cannot understand (and no one ever explains) why I should be championing the cause of people who teach 4 or 5 year old kids that God hates all these other folk so much he’s going to burn their skins off, and then keep giving them new skins so he can burn them off as well, while I should be condemning as evil those who try to undo all the former’s good work…
        (Hint for the hard of thinking: “good work” => sarcasm)

  • Michael

    Nobody radicalised more Islamists than Bush and Blair. No preacher comes even close to either war criminal.

    • Brian c

      Both men are considered moderate centrists from a lost age of civility and responsible adults in the room leadership. As the authors of libya’s mad max dystopia.

      • cimarrón

        When speaking of “the authors of Libya’s mad max dystopia”, please don’t forget David “70,000 moderate rebels” Cameron, Nicolas Sarkozy, Obama, and France’s nasty little Bernard Henri Levy, who was so proud of his part that he even made a film about it – starring him.

  • Mark Harper

    The British way.

    Bash the fuckers into subservience!

    Like prohibition and the war on drugs all doomed to failure. Worse than that, it merely make the situation worse.

  • Giyane

    The recent rigged election had to be rigged because of the failure of MI6′ s policy of using jihadists in Syria.
    IfCorbyn had won , the new government would have had access to all the records of our defeat at the hands of Putin.

    Obviously that could never happen. The spate of local terror attacks is intended purely to divert public attention for the total incompetence of our intelligence agencies, following the total failure of Thatcherism in 2007. Keep us busy and pretend nothing has happened.

    The vested interests of the bonkers Tories and their neo-con sponsors in the US are far more important to Biris Johnson and Bimbo Patel than the lives of mixed up British Muslim children.

    • Kim Sanders-Fisher

      These two lone terrorist attacks in short succession are starting to look suspiciously like distraction tool and a devious means of preparing the public for the new Tory agenda of repression and extrajudicial executions. There has already been an attempt to blur the lines between violent terrorists and peaceful protesters; that redefinition will need to be snuck in latter when opposition politicians are paying less attention. The thought police will be expanding their remit shortly.

      If the UK government really wanted to turbo charge deradicalization they could employ the successful techniques of Cambridge Analytica. Psych ops techniques managed to dupe people all over the UK into voting against their own interests using their fake news, targeted disinformation program; why couldn’t these methods of intense brainwashing be put to good use flushing the angst and hate out of a terrorist sympathiser’s head?

      We really need to remove this toxic hard right government before it can cause more harm and it is not beyond our capability if the public wake up and take notice. We can and must fight the rigged election; to find out more join us on the Discussion Thread:
      Elections Aftermath: Was our 2019 Vote & the EU Referendum Rigged? Also please read, sign, share and link to this Petition: 2019 TORY LANDSLIDE VICTORY DEMANDS URGENT NATIONWIDE INVESTIGATION. I created a tiny url link:
      https://tinyurl.com/w4u9dwm

    • Stewart

      Au contraire, the recent spate of local terror attacks have tended to HIGHLIGHT the incompetence of the spooks.

  • L3on

    We only ever get part of the story, some of the questions we need to be asking ourselves is, what is fuelling the rise in crime, terrorism and people like Shamima Begum and Sudesh Amman? There is far too much gaslighting in the media today and the lies which are past off as news is what people accept as fact. Take Libya, I read an article in the Guardian very recently about the current state of the country and no where in the article was there mention of British, French and NATO intervention which has caused the country to descend in chaos. On the back of that we had the bombings in Manchester, no where will you read that the bomber was from Libyan heritage and that Western intervention might have been the catalyst as to why he decided commit such a crime.

    • nevermind

      Add to that the support by consecutive British Governments for radical Islam and Islamist terrorists, in the past and now. From creating and paying the Muslim Brotherhood, to supporting terrorist attacks abroad and inviting them here in the UK. Our extraordinary reliance on Saudi and Quatari sponsors of extremism is all done to safeguard our supposed interests in the middle east and its resource.

      good tome to read ‘Secret Affairs’ the new and updated version by Mark Curtis.

    • Borncynical

      L3on

      I agree. Channel 4 and Sky News have been running an ongoing propaganda campaign for the past couple of years supporting the Islamic fundamentalists in Syria and making them out to be victims at the hands of the ‘murderous Syrian regime and Russian military’. To prop up their campaign, Channel 4 and Sky rely entirely on propaganda supplied to them by the terrorists/White Helmets.

      As just one example, last year Channel 4 broadcast footage of ‘a regime attack on a White Helmet ambulance and the aftermath’, all filmed by the WHs themselves. The continuity of the footage has as many holes as a sieve. Mohammed pulls the ambulance up on the left hand side of the road yet it is clearly pulled up on the right hand side when his colleagues hastily jump out. Apart from claiming that Mohammed and the ambulance were in the vicinity of a missile attack there is no hard evidence of a missile or crater to be seen. I note that the ‘injured’ Mohammed – who judging from his legs looks like he’s significantly lost weight since he was driving the ambulance – was covered in dust from head to foot but when he is put into the rescue ambulance his clothes look like they’ve been to the dry cleaners in the interim. In between colleagues returning to Mohammed on the stretcher and the camouflaged ambulance coming along, Mohammed on the stretcher has been moved from a position beside a broad verge of vivid green grassland to another position at least 50 metres further down on the other side of the road beside a field ploughed up to the roadside. It is also evident on the film that the grove of trees which the stretcher bearers carry Mohammed through immediately before they leave him at the side of the road is not in the vicinity of the place where they leave him as the trees have clearly disappeared by the time his colleagues run back to him. But Jon Snow tells us that he and his Channel 4 colleagues are convinced that the footage is genuine. Who are we to argue with that?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFCC3W1uNDw

      The point I am coming to is that it is grossly hypocritical for the msm to support, and indeed promote, the Islamist terrorist cause on the one hand but voice condemnation of young people like Shamima Begum when they join the very terrorists complicitly given positive publicity by the msm.

  • IanA

    If the compassion offered to the person responsible for stabbing of 3 people in Streatham was universal it would be laudable.

    But sadly all too often on this blog people who have never stabbed anybody let alone served time for terrorist offences are routinely demonised as racist or knuckle dragging purely for having had the temerity to vote Brexit or to complain at the changing demographics in their communities. For them there is no such compassion
    .
    Is it any wonder the left is so despised?

  • philipat

    I am in agreement with this in some ways but wonder why there are so many of these people in the country to start with? That represents a failure of immigration policy over many decades. But jailing radical Islamists for the full term of their sentence is not a complete solution, in part because even then the sentences are laughably lenient in our politically correct judicial system. It seems to me that these individuals are leaving our prisons even more radicalised then when they were admitted, which IS the crux of the problem. There need to be major efforts made to better understand that problem and investigate how effective measures can be implemented within the prison system to deradilcalise these people.

    • Laguerre

      Product of Britain’s colonial policy, is why they’re there, and all the wars launched in the Middle East for poorly thought-out aims. Complain to the government if you don’t like their warmongering, which leads to floods of refugees.

  • Northern

    As several others have pointed out here, Johnson’s proposed end to early release represents a worrying slide towards totalitarianism by the state, neatly driven by an endless supply of violent young men who conveniently get shot dead prior to having to explain their motivations. Dead men tell no tales is a state policy that they have an incentive to expand.

    At this point, the state has evidenced, document able connections to 90% of the terror attacks in the last 20 years but we’re still pushed to look for something else to assign blame to, be it the protagonists religion, ethnicity, their parents and upbringing… Literally look at anything except the real cause. Class war on steroids continues unabated for the foreseeable.

    • N_

      Here’s another example: today it was announced that Matt Hancock, health secretary, has “introduced new laws” allowing “Police ‘wearing hazmat suits’ (…) to HANDCUFF suspected coronavirus patients and force them back into quarantine”. That is a quote from the Daily Heil. The actual Department of Health press release is here.

      But wait…where is the text of these regulations? What are they even called? Did the secretary of state issue them using powers he has under an Act of Parliament? If so, which one? Or were they introduced by Order in Council? I haven’t a clue. The Daily Heil doesn’t say. The Torygraph doesn’t say. And more importantly, the government press release doesn’t say. Can we work out where this is leading?

      Hancock boasts that the strengthened powers are “effective immediately” and that they “will ensure that NHS staff dealing with possible cases can be confident the necessary powers are in place to keep individuals in isolation where public health professionals believe there is a reasonable risk an individual may have the virus.”

      Always be bloody scared when they call people “individuals”.

      • nevermind

        Matt Hancock’s gone bonkers, he also announced a fast track magic training for nursrs to become doctors, 7.5uears is just too much for the Tories. Added bonus is that you create a two tier system thats easier to flog off to privaye investors.
        These virtual doctors then treat virtual patients, cause there are far too many real cases to cope with, so they bundle them up and claim succes, high treatment rate less costs etc. 3 million houses in ten years and 40 new hospitals fit for a private bidder to take over OUR ASSETS.

        A little encouraged terrorism, a little simple guesswork as to what a young Muslim who believes in terrorism as a means for change, might do whence leaving prisons does not need much planning or waiting.
        If he was watched, nobody should have got.injured.
        Message is that we are not safe even if they watch a suspect/ex prisoner. Secondly, was this allowed to get out of hand to reinvigorate the terror narrative and to justify their own actions?

        • N_

          The idea of armed police following a non-white terrorist down the street who they know might start murdering people at any time, but who they can’t do anything about until he starts stabbing, because of oh such soft liberal leftwing laws, is very powerful in the “minds” of rightwing tabloid readers.

          Coronavirus cases in Britain seem to be serving the government well too…

          We’ve reached a point where it’s anybody’s guess what kind of ratcheting up might occur even in the short term.

          If there is something on the scale of say the Bataclan or the Nice promenade massacres (the latter not even involving automatic weapons) – it doesn’t have to be on the scale of the Moscow theatre siege – the government and the press will pull their jackboots on like never before in living memory/

      • SA

        It is probably just a reactivation of an old law “ Public Health (Control of Disease) Act” which allows authorities to isolate individuals who May create a public health hazard to a medically secure facility.

        • N_

          @SA – Yes, you are right – to judge from <a href="what the Torygraph says it seems that Hancock may be using powers under s45B of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. But it’s interesting that they don’t say so explicitly. So it could be that he is using the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 which allows the government to suspend habeas corpus.

          Under the byline of its “Global Health Security Editor” – their what (a guy who may well answer directly to Cobra), the Torygraph writes:

          What the British government will do if coronavirus spreads

          As the risk of coronavirus increases, the government is urging local authorities and others to put in place contingency plans to mitigate its potential impact – but what will be needed and when is still uncertain.

          They range from warning religious groups to limit “close contacts”, urging employers to use video conferencing rather than face-to-face meetings, and ensuring – that if worst comes to worst – local authorities have capacity to cremate and bury the dead to stop the disease from spreading further.

          While the situation in the UK remains calm, with only eight cases confirmed so far, government planners are taking precautions.

          Their response is being driven by an influenza pandemic strategy pulled together in 2011, and although this document was prepared for an outbreak of a new strain of flu, it’s believed to provide a solid template for the management of coronavirus containment and treatment.

          In practical terms, if the coronavirus was to take root in Britain as it has in China, these are the sort of measures we might expect to see introduced.

          [School closures…]

          Working from home

          All businesses should adopt “robust and flexible” contingency plans in case of a pandemic, including appointing a “pandemic coordinator or team” to drive the company response, the Government says.

          (…)
          Transport restrictions

          There are unlikely to be bans on taking public transport but if the the spread of the virus picks up place, expect the government to recommend “non-essential” travel is avoided.

          Also expect a major information campaign about the importance of good hand and respiratory hygiene when using public transport systems.

          Trains, buses and especially hub stations are easy places to spread and catch viruses from shared surfaces such as ticket machines, hanging straps, and seats.

          Daily Mail readers will be in seventh heaven!!

          They’ve been officially encouraged to call many Black British people “the Windrush generation”.
          The Union Jacks flapped as Britain left the EU.
          “Terrorists” are to be kept in prison even after they’ve served their sentences.
          And now the government is calling public transport passengers a bunch of virus spreaders who don’t wash often enough.

          And the corker is yet to come:

          Scientific modelling estimates that the UK ‘could experience up to 750,000 additional deaths over the course of a pandemic’, say the government’s planning documents.

          “‘These figures might be expected to be reduced by the impact of countermeasures, but the effectiveness of such mitigation is not certain’, it adds.”

          “Taking account of this, local planners have been set the target of preparing to extend capacity on a “precautionary but reasonably practicable basis”, and aim to cope with a population mortality rate of up to 210,000 to 315,000 additional deaths, possibly over as little as a 15-week period and perhaps half of these over 3 weeks at the height of the outbreak.”

          Dig that “scientific” precision!

    • Stonky

      …an endless supply of violent young men who conveniently get shot dead prior to having to explain their motivations…

      I realise that inane hyperbole is a way of life for some people, but:

      1. This “endless supply of violent young men who conveniently get shot dead…” Does Amman make the number two now? Or is it three?

      2. Once the young man has explained to you that his motivation is that “Allah is great”, what, exactly, do you propose to do with this information? Feel free to be as precise as you wish.

    • Deb O'Nair

      The Manchester bomber arrived in the UK from Libya aboard a Royal Navy ship, no immigration, no passport control. MI5 also had a direct hand in bringing the Woolwich attacker Michael Adebolajo into the country from Kenya.

      • Stonky

        The Manchester bomber arrived in the UK from Libya aboard a Royal Navy ship, no immigration, no passport control…

        I don’t dispute this, and I have no doubt that Abedi and his family and many others were trained, armed, financed, and given every possible support by the British State in their effrots to destroy Gaddafi’s Libya.. It disgusts me beyond words that our overlords should ally themselfves with this kind of filth in their geopolitical manipulations.

        But let’s not be disingenuous. If you asked Abedi to “explain” why he blew up dozens of harmless little girls at a pop concert, what do you think he’s going to say? “The British governemnt told me to do it”, or “This is what Allah wants”?

      • Spencer Eagle

        ‘The Manchester bomber arrived in the UK from Libya aboard a Royal Navy ship’….no he didn’t. The HMS Enterprise deposited him and 110 others in Malta after rescue from Tripoli, he was then flown from Malta to the UK, presumably through the usual commercial passport and customs channels.

        • Andyoldlabour

          Spencer Eagle
          Thanks for injecting some sense and reason into this thread, because there were so many things said earlier which are wrong. To add to your facts which are indisputable, Abedi had been to Libya twice to fight for Islamic extremist groups allied to Daesh. The problem with bringing “refugees” back to the UK from a conflict zone, is that you will inevitably bring back terrorists as well. The same thing happens in mainland Europe with the hundreds of thousands of “refugees”.
          It should be noted that HMS Enterprise had taken around 9000 people in total from Libya to Europe.

        • Deb O'Nair

          OK, fair enough the bomber did not arrive directly to the UK from Libya on an HMS, but his transit through Malta to the UK would have had to have been facilitated by the UK and they would have had extensive knowledge of his family connections. The point that he was being closely monitored by MI5 upon his arrival in the UK is an established fact and there is no reason to think that he wouldn’t have come to the attention of the UK authorities when in Malta applying to come to the UK, if not even sooner, i.e. when he was put on the ship. The Woolwich bomber was sprung from a Kenyan prison by MI5.

          I am happy to take on board corrections to specific details but looking for minor inaccuracies to dismiss the wider point being made in disingenuous.

    • Andyoldlabour

      ben madigan

      Why has that article said nothing about the fact that Abedi and his father were fighting for an Islamic extremist group in Libya, one which was allied to Daesh and where Abedi learned hi bomb making skills?

    • Tom Welsh

      The main distinguishing feature of any British terrorist – I mean a really wicked wholesale terrorist, not a penny-ante killer of three or four – is that (s)he works for HMG.

      Consider the following potential cases:

      1. Kills anyone who tries to harm his family or tribe.
      2. Kills anyone who upsets him.
      3. Kills for money.
      4. Kills for fun.
      5. Kills for power.
      6. Kills anyone who belongs to some designated “enemy” category.
      7. Kills, tortures, maims and destroys whole villages and districts for money and fun.
      8. Does all the above – and blames it on those he has killed and wants to kill.
      9. Sits in an air-conditioned cockpit at 20,000 feet dropping bombs and firing rockets at helpless civilians below.
      10. Sits in an air-conditioned control room far away, dropping bombs and firing rockets at helpless civilians.
      11. Arranges for all the above to happen to help win a political campaign and pay off those who bribed him.

  • Fedup

    Let us clarify that terror is a tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end. (note this could be classified as aiding, abetting etc.) Those who practice this course of action have certain attributes in common. They are marginalised, vilified, discriminated against, constantly harangued at: go back where you come from,……

    No amount of jail time, and repression will suppress the seething resentment of these young people who are rejected by our society (host society) and are the whipping boys of the politico who keep blaming them for all the ills of our society. The fact that “immigrants” is a general term and as yet there is no agreement on its definition and how many generations of these people are classed as immigrants? Classic case of Shamima Begum; she was born here, she only knows this country, yet her “nationality” is stripped and she is being shoved into a foreign country.

    The nostrum of even more repression is the only treatment dished out to these disenfranchised people, that in turn gives rise to even greater resentment. Do the authorities know it? Of course they do, but they only have punishment as tool to counter this situation.

    There has never been an honest debate about minorities in UK, to settle the question of just how many generations are to be classed as immigrants? Further to confront those politico/media/plutocrats who whip up hatred (child’s play) and bring about the 1933 German terrain in 2020 in UK . There again we never have owned up to our war guilt so we would not even entertain such a notion that we have become the enemy that we vanquished! Fact that we identify our very existence on this issue, makes it harder to see what is happening in our society!

    • N

      Those who talk about “never letting terrorists out of prison” probably don’t even know the State of Israel was created by terrorists.

      • Tom Welsh

        To be fair, a working knowledge of history reveals that almost all states were founded by terrorists. Otherwise you could never get the masses to knuckle under, pay exorbitant taxes, obey your every command, and stand by passively watching while you arrest, imprison, torture and/or kill anyone who disobeys or annoys you.

        • Tom Welsh

          Israel looks particularly bad just because it’s the only colonial state founded in the 20th century.

          Could happen to anyone.

  • Daniel

    It’s almost as if they wanted it to happen. Why do these “terrorists” always seem to attack seemingly random “average” people on the street? Well written, as ever, thank you Craig.

    • MJ

      Yes, the days of Earl Mountbatten and other posh and well-protected people being targeted are over. Average man on the street only. Gets a better reaction from the press.

    • Andyoldlabour

      Daniel
      I think you will find that is what terrorists do the World over, they mostly target groups of ordinary people, whether it is Sunni terrorists in Iraq, targeting Shia mosques and market places, Al Shabab in Kenya, murdering innocent people in shopping malls, Bali where they targeted tourists, 2011 Marrakesh bombing, 2016 Nice truck attack, 2015 Bataclan theatre attacks, 2016 Berlin attack, 7/7 London attacks.
      They rarely attack politicians.

      • Tom Welsh

        “I think you will find that is what terrorists do the World over, they mostly target groups of ordinary people, whether it is Sunni terrorists in Iraq, targeting Shia mosques and market places, Al Shabab in Kenya, murdering innocent people in shopping malls, Bali where they targeted tourists, 2011 Marrakesh bombing, 2016 Nice truck attack, 2015 Bataclan theatre attacks, 2016 Berlin attack, 7/7 London attacks”.

        You seem to have overlooked the savage attacks on Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Libya and Syria (among many others) which killed literally millions of innocent civilians.

        “They rarely attack politicians”.

        The people I am thinking of almost always attack politicians – and, if they feel like it, sodomise them with bayonets.

        • Tom Welsh

          I just don’t understand why people always seem to focus on amateur terorists, and ignore the professionals.

  • Willem

    Craig, you are absolutely right in pointing out that villains are humans too and am happy you say so.

    I was in Bali in 2002 when a discotheque was bombed. I lost a friend there, and nearly got killed myself

    In 2008 some of the perpetrators received the death penalty. The MSM was cheerful about that and reported from victims that they were either happy, or felt that no punishment could be enough for those who committed the balibombings.

    I disagreed and sent a letter to the Volkskrant, pointing out that I had different opinion and thought that forgiving and forgetting was much more important than revenge. I think that the Bible says that to understand is to forgive, with which sentiment I agree, and that therefore I would be much more willing to understand those who did it than to give them the death penalty.

    That letter was one of my first letters I ever wrote to a newspaper, and I was so surprised at the time that it was memory holed! I still am, sort of, to be honest…

    Happy to see that alternative viewpoints about villains and victims are possible though, even though not in the msm, at least here.

    • Stonky

      I disagreed and sent a letter to the Volkskrant, pointing out that I had different opinion and thought that forgiving and forgetting was much more important than revenge…

      I sympathise with your misfortune Willem, and I’m sorry you had a friend who died in the bombing.

      But there really isn’t any reason why your views on what does or doesn’t consitiute appropriate punishment should carry any more weight than those of some Breitbartian demanding that he perps should have their balls cut off and a tyre filled with petrol hung round their neck.

    • Antonym

      Jesus’ way of “turning the other cheek” has resulted in the ME population being now 0.1% Christian and 97% Muslim. Conclusion after 2000 years: doesn’t work with a ideologically violent opponent.

      • SA

        Don’t know where you get the figure of .1% from. There are at least 8 to 9 million Copts in Egypt and about 5 to 6 million in the Levant. It looks more in the region of 4 or 5 %.

      • Magic Robot

        “Jesus’ way of “turning the other cheek” has resulted in the ME population being now 0.1% Christian and 97% Muslim.”
        Well, his point was to determine whether someone merely acted from the natural human expression of a ‘loss of temper’ or if the act was repeated, would show the assailant truly despised his victim – then you know you have a fight on your hands – so start your engines..

  • Deb O'Nair

    State sponsored terrorism is alive and well in the UK and has been for a while, it’s just getting more blatant. Anyone with half-a-brain should take a close look at the 7/7 attacks. The official narrative couldn’t even get simple, verifiable facts correct, e.g. stating that the bombers arrived in London on a train which had been cancelled that day. This despite the “largest criminal investigation” in the country’s history.

    https://www.julyseventh.co.uk/july-7-luton-kings-cross-train-times.html

    • Stonky

      State sponsored terrorism is alive and well in the UK and has been for a while, it’s just getting more blatant…

      It’s rather odd that they don’t manage to dupe more non-Moslems into signing up for their state-sponsored terrorism initiatives, given that we represent around 97% of the population.

      • Marmite

        Sadly, though, there are some terrorists that we can never mourn, because they have no excuses and are so far beyond redemption, and have caused immeasurable suffering.

        I am shocked and saddened by the terrorism of Big Oil and Trumpism at the moment.

        I just saw this and am outraged: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51449739

        This would be the equivalent of blowing up Arlington National Cemetery to build another folly, like some stupid parking lot or shopping mall.

        It seems that the attack on indigeneity has gone full throttle in North America at the moment.

        This ongoing colonialist invasion of unceded territories, destruction and social genocide needs to be called out as terrorism. What else could it be?

        • Courtenay Barnett

          Marmite,

          ” Sadly, though, there are some terrorists that we can never mourn, because they have no excuses and are so far beyond redemption, and have caused immeasurable suffering.”

          Don’t you think that for every vicious, violent and brutal act that the person doing it has effected, there is in every human being:-

          1. A family history ( or lack thereof) as the case may be.
          2. Social location.
          3. Ethnic identity.
          4. Some belief based on religion ( or absence thereof), politics, identity of self in one form or another; and
          5. A personal socio-psychological map which uniquely defines him/her as a distinct human being?

          Add it all together and then when you say, ” Sadly, though, there are some terrorists that we can never mourn, because they have no excuses” surely it may not so much be an “excuse” but rather an ‘explanation’ based upon their unique socialisation. Isn’t that the real point – without you or I having at all to condone that which is “vicious, violent and brutal..”?

      • Deb O'Nair

        I presume you didn’t read the link to the page I posted because that is the very point that is addressed. Instead you choose to quote a BBC article? I’ll let the reader decide.

      • Deb O'Nair

        “Here’s CCTV of the bombers catching the 7.25.”

        Which arrived at London 08:39 but CCTV shows them in London at 08:26, so perhaps carefully selected CCTV images and the times thereof are not reliable proof of anything. I only pointed out a single thing in the context of “the largest criminal investigation in British history” take a look at the rest of the mess know as ‘the official narrative’.

    • J Galt

      No, no, Deb – you must believe in “terrorism” and then you can chatter away harmlessly on here and elsewhere about “radicalisation”, PC judicial policies, “incompetent” spooks and silly conspiracy theories!

  • Mark Golding

    This child, Sudesh Amman, was sent to Belmarsh Prison, a place that prepares some for ‘play Judas’ and never employment; where evaluation after release is opposed and twin cells house three men.

    Lest we forget:

    “Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

    — Hermann Goering

    • Giyane

      Mark

      Is this the same Boris Johnson as the one who as Foreign Secretary had access to Porton Down to deliver the toxins to kill the spy who ran from Enemy that stopped the jihadists from removing the dictator, and who got Brexit done from the EU that supported his pathetic little games?

      I suppose we scratch their back over fake weapons in fake flag attacks so they have to scratch Johnsons bollocks.
      Johnson is totally pre-fabricated and owned by intelligence.
      Which is a curiously un- British situation.

  • Cubby

    The UK government is terrible. Pretty much sums up a lot of the above posts.

    Logically, why would anyone in Scotland not want to get free from the war mongering, murdering UK government.

    • douglas clark

      It seems to me that the execution of Jean Charles da Silva e de Menezes, was a tipping point in the indiscriminate and very Americanised use of force by the state. There were no consequences and you and I can be shot on the street without a qualm by the government. Indeed it is sort of approved of.

      • Deb O'Nair

        “There were no consequences”

        Yes there were; the Met commissioner, who repeatedly lied on camera, got promoted to the House of Lords whilst the woman that gave the order (she still claims that she thought he was a potential suicide bomber despite all the evidence that shows this is absurd) became Met commissioner.

  • Covergirl

    Decency is doubleplusungood malchik. Love is felt most richly when expressed firmly and the State, being infallible, shows its care precisely when that love is felt most heartily by the least loved among us. Don’t you agree brother?

  • Sean_Lamb

    Police are killing terrorists regardless of whether or not they still represent a threat – I guess on the basis of a fake suicide vests.

    My concern is I think some of these terrorists (particularly in Australia) may be reluctant terrorists. That the real terrorists are sitting behind them, get some hold over the perpetrator and then threaten their families or loved ones if they don’t carry out the attack. Hence, by always killing the terrorists police are simply making the next attack inevitable because they aren’t finding the root organisation.

    This was especially the case in the attack before the 2019 election. Civilians had done everything right, grabbed the nearest narwhal tusk and pinned him to the ground and then the police turn up and just shot him in the head. So how surprising is it that a few months you immediately get another attack?

    • douglas clark

      Sean_Lamb,

      I forget, but the ‘justification’ that the state claimed was that Jean Charles da Silva e de Menezes was wearing a jacket that allegedly covered his ‘suspected’ suicide vest? IIRC no such suicide vest was found? You’d have thought that that would be a bit of a disaster for arming cops and killing folk?

      Apparently not.

      When, allegedly, he wasn’t wearing a jacket, and they murdered him anyway?

      What message is the state sending the citizens?

      I would be surprised if there is even one new Brazillian electrician willing to risk their life by working here. This is a kind of victory for folk that hate foreigners, and Brazillian electricians in particular.

      • N_

        The story was put out that Jean-Charles de Menezes was wearing a bulky jacket with wires visibly sticking out, and that when he was challenged by police he jumped over the ticket barrier. All of that was complete and utter lies.

        In a twist that tells us a lot about Britain, the British state flew an official c*** out to visit his family in Brazil and offer to chuck them a few grand if they would sign a document accepting that that was all they would get. (Whether it was less than the British state spent on the c***’s travel and hotel, I don’t know.) And remember – that was AFTER everybody had accepted that he was a wholly innocent man. That’s the kind of country Britain is.

        Most Daily Mail and Sun readers probably believe that he had cultural difficulties understanding the British way of life, what with him being a foreigner and all that, and that even if he wasn’t a terrorist there’s not much to complain about unless you’re some kind of snowflake.

        They are probably also aware that he overstayed his visa – a document from the Home Office that was evidence to that effect found its way on to the front pages shortly after he was gunned down – or, in other words, that if you’re a foreigner or non-white or an xth-generation immigrant then no decent white British person should complain about you being shot dead by the police.

        It’s time the left took a bloody good look at the real mindset of the millions of British people for whom Enoch Powell has been some kind of underground saint for the last 50 years. They’re walking 10 foot high now. Many feel that their day has come.

        • N_

          Britain has now been outside the EU for less than a fortnight, and big media stories include

          * foreigners coming to Britain spreading disease
          * regulations being introduced to stop people escaping from plague holding centres, and
          * Jamaican convicts after serving their sentences being deported “from Heathrow” but the liberal courts trying to stop the government from expelling all of the Jamaicans it wants to.

          BBC: “Downing Street said 17 people were deported, but 25 others had been stopped because of the court order. The court ruling came on Monday night after concerns that some detainees may not have had access to legal advice.

          Half the British population are thinking “Who do they think they are, these Jamaican criminals, demanding access to legal advice as if the world owes them a living?” and of course “Isn’t it disgusting that the government is hampered by courts and laws that seem always to help immigrants and black criminals before they help hardworking white British people? Well the shoe is getting pulled on to the other foot now!”

          Mentioning the name of the airport is effective propaganda. It’s bound to whip up Powellite emotions. “Put them on a plane from Heathrow straight back to where they came from” is a sentence much more to Powellite taste than “Deport them”.

          I can almost hear Sun and Daily Mail readers getting furious as they fantasise about Jamaicans getting given meals on the plane.

        • Stonky

          Most Daily Mail and Sun readers probably believe that he had cultural difficulties understanding the British way of life, what with him being a foreigner and all that, and that even if he wasn’t a terrorist there’s not much to complain about unless you’re some kind of snowflake…

          I’ve probably spoken to many more Marxists than you’ve spoken to Daily Mail and Sun readers on what they think about the de Manezes killing, so I’m ideally placed to know that you’re all condescending middle-class snobs.

          • Karel

            Stonky, just tell us “what they think” and reveal this terrible secret you are obviously keeping to yourself. I have not met a Marxist in the past 20 years. Where do you find them nowadays?

        • Borncynical

          Many people on here will think that you are exaggerating about “the mindset of millions of British people”. I recall as if it was yesterday the words of my, then, father in law (a ‘Sun’ reader as it happens) when it became apparent that this young man was completely innocent and had simply been executed in cold blood: “Well, he was here illegally and he was carrying a backpack [that had been cited in the press as sufficient reason to justify the police making such a mistake, once the other excuses vanished one by one] so he’s only got himself to blame”.

          I was momentarily speechless as I absorbed what I had just heard, As a normally placid, ‘let it drop’ type of person I let rip with both barrels (starting with the ubiquitous ‘You can’t be serious!’ in my best John McEnroe impression) but was just met with a stony silence.

      • Spencer Eagle

        I’ve always thought that de Menezes, once incorrectly identified, was purposely allowed onto the tube train so that he could be executed. If the intelligence was that he was wearing a suicide vest who in their right mind would let him enter a tube station? In the same way the heavily surveilled Sudesh Amman was allowed into a public space with a knife he’d just purchased. How do you think so many armed police appeared from nowhere in seconds? They were with him the whole time. He buys a knife, so it’s game on for an execution.(btw, some reports say it’s was still in it’s packaging when he was shot). Just like de Menezes it will take years for the truth to come out, first it was suicide vest, then puffer jacket over suicide vest, not until the public inquiry did we find out de Menezes was only wearing a tight fitting t-shirt. Of course we all know who was in charge of the operation that day, Cressida Dick.

        • N_

          Agreed, he was probably deliberately allowed on to the tube train.

          A journo who either worked for the Guardian or was a freelancer happened to be in the carriage, and when interviewed by the “independent” (what a joke) police complaints investigators she said that she had heard the assassins fire many more shots than they said. (It sounds as though they treated it like a sicko computer game – blam blam blam, firing bullets into a corpse and enjoying seeing it jump about.) The “independent ones” basically told her “Oh no you bloody well didn’t see that. Are you looking for trouble? You only saw three shots, OK?” (or whatever the “agreed” number was).

          Interesting snippet: Michael Winner praised the killing of de Menezes, in the period when he was still being said to have been an intending terror bomber.

          • Spencer Eagle

            Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty shell casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range and died at the scene. An eyewitness later said that the eleven shots were fired over a thirty-second period, at three-second intervals.
            https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/aug/26/terrorism.july7

          • N_

            She (Sue Thomason) also says a key detail she gave of the number of shots and the interval between them was missed from her final statement until she insisted it be included.

            There was another article that puts a different slant on it and doesn’t try to explain the “independent” investigators’ refusal to accept her statement as to how many shots she heard fired as if it were caused only by their use of the wrong map.

          • N_

            In any case it’s not as if somebody won’t count how much ammo the cops took out with them and how much they came back with.

        • Stonky

          I’ve always thought that de Menezes, once incorrectly identified, was purposely allowed onto the tube train so that he could be executed…

          I’ve always thought that de Menezes was shot by a squad of armed police acting on the orders of one of those useless identity politics boxtickers who pollute the upper echelons of the public sector these days. The same one who either orchestrated or authorised the pack of lies that was told about him in the days following the shooting.

          But your explanation makes so much more sense. Even taking into account that there was no intelligence that he was wearing a suicide vest. And taking into account that your explanation makes no sense at all, since there is no earthly reason why he would have to be “purposely allowed onto the tube train” in order to be executed. Apart from that it’s a great explanation.

        • Tom Welsh

          “If the intelligence was that he was wearing a suicide vest who in their right mind would let him enter a tube station?”

          These are the questions that really put Hanlon’s Razor to the test.

          Of course there is no reason, in principle, why someone cannot be simultaneously malicious and incompetent. I call it the “Keystone Cops meet the Gestapo” syndrome, and we see it all the time nowadays.

          • Iain Stewart

            I call it the “Keystone Cops meet the Gestapo” syndrome, and we see it all the time nowadays.
            Very interesting point, Tom: errors are made by subordinates.
            Johann Chapoutot of the Sorbonne has recently written “Free to obey” (1) which details the surprising invention of delegated management in order to run the vast Third Reich, whose textbooks and methods became the foundation of modern theory and practice in West Germany and the USA after the war, largely through the former SS-Oberführer Reinhard Höhn (with his mission statements, teamwork, employees’ well-being and all that stuff) and now everywhere else in the world.

            (1) i think that’s a quote from Hegel, who wanted us to be “free to obey the police”. The book is only in French for now.

        • Borncynical

          Spencer E,

          It was a case of the original pursuants not being sure whether he was the man they were waiting for and failing In communicating adequately with senior commanding officers. The police had staked out the area where de Menezes was living as they were looking for Osman Hussein who was of a similar age to de Menezes, and of Mediterranean/Middle Eastern appearance. Of course when that is all you had to go on it made a large % of people living in London vulnerable and sadly de Menezes fell victim, especially when the police fail to follow procedures for positively identifying the potential target. The attached link details the appalling catalogue of amateurish errors which led to his execution. It’s interesting also to see the information given about the official police policy on dealing with potential suicide bombers.

          https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/1950/jean-charles-de-menezes-how-an-innocent-man-in-london-was-killed-at-the-hands-of-the-british-state

          • Mark Golding

            Yes Borncynical after demonstarting a predilection towards contrivance at interview we are required to recognise and promulgate the most plausable explanation when things go badly wrong. We know that, don’t we; the events of July 7th 2005 still resonate around those badly burnt fingers…

          • Curious

            Jean Charles de Menezes’s death was not accidental; he was specifically targeted. An elite team was supposedly looking for Osman’s North African friend Abdi Omar for questioning at de Menezes’ apartment complex. But when De Menezes was immediately identified as “North European”, two elite teams were immediately dispatched to follow him by car and foot. The assassin was waiting for him outside of Stockwell station, and the subway driver had been parked for 5 minutes when the killing occurred. Police immediately confiscated his cell phone to see who de Menezes had been talking to; I wonder what happened to his friends. The intelligence agents could have quietly killed him, but his public execution was a warning to those he might have been sharing his suspicions with. Footnotes at: http://www.physics911.net/karinbrothers/

      • Tony

        He jumped over a ticket barrier was another lie.
        CCTV footage showed that he stopped to pick up a free newspaper.

        Keir Starmer refused to prosecute the people who killed him.

    • michael norton

      Sean,
      they will only be killing terrorists
      because the government have instructed them to do this.

  • N_

    Update: the The Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 have now been published. As some had guessed, they were indeed issued under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. In accordance with s5R of that Act, the Secretary of State was of the opinion that “by reason of urgency, it is necessary to make this instrument without a draft having been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament”. However, having been issued at 6.50am they were laid before Parliament yesterday at 2.30pm.

    *********
    Detention of persons by the Secretary of State or a registered public health consultant

    4.—(1) Where Condition A or B is met in relation to a person (“P”), the Secretary of State or a registered public health consultant may, for the purposes of screening, assessment and the imposition of any restrictions or requirements under regulation 5, impose on P a requirement to be detained until the later of—

    (a)the end of the period of 48 hours beginning with the time from which P’s detention under this regulation begins;

    (b)such time as any screening requirements imposed on or in relation to P under regulation 5(1) have been complied with and the assessment referred to in that regulation carried out in relation to P.

    (2) Condition A is that—

    (a)the Secretary of State or a registered public health consultant has reasonable grounds to believe that P is, or may be, infected or contaminated with Coronavirus; and

    (b)the Secretary of State or a registered public health consultant considers that there is a risk that P might infect or contaminate others.

    (3) Condition B is that P—

    (a)has arrived in England on an aircraft, ship or train from outside the United Kingdom, whether directly or via Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales; and

    (b)has left, or the Secretary of State or a registered public health consultant has reasonable grounds to believe P has left, an infected area within the 14 day period immediately preceding the date of P’s arrival in England.

    (…)

    Restrictions or requirements: groups

    10.—(1) The powers in regulations 4, 5 and 8 include powers to impose a restriction or requirement in relation to a group of persons, including a special restriction or requirement.

    (,,,)
    Initial detention of persons to enable screening and assessment

    14.—(1) This regulation applies if a constable has reasonable grounds to suspect that—

    (a)a person (“P”) is, or may be, infected or contaminated with Coronavirus;

    (b)there is a risk that P might infect or contaminate others; and

    (c)it is necessary to direct, remove or detain P in the interests of P, for the protection of other persons or for the maintenance of public safety.

    (2) A constable may—

    (a)direct P to go immediately to a hospital or other suitable place specified in the direction for the purposes of screening, assessment and the imposition of any restrictions or requirements under regulation 5,

    (b)remove P to a hospital or other suitable place for the purposes of the imposition of any restrictions or requirements under regulation 5; or

    (c)if P is already at a hospital or other suitable place, keep P at that place or remove P to another hospital or other suitable place for the purposes of the imposition of any restrictions or requirements under regulation 5.
    *********

    The “P for person” and “condition A” and “condition B” terminology – which is to say, the terminology of algebra – does not sound anything like the language usually used by civil servants and lawyers who draft legislation. What it sounds like is Dominic Cummings.

  • OnlyHalfALooney

    If I understand things correctly, Sudesh Amman was being closely followed by “plain clothes police officers” one of whom was on a motorbike. Yet he was able to steal a knife from a shop. After stabbing one victim he was able to stab a second. And yet the police officers took 60 seconds to shoot him.

    It is all a rather a strange story.

    At the very least, the “undercover police officers” must have known his “suicide vest” was fake, if he actually had one at all. One must assume he was under electronic surveillance and possibly even undercover surveillance at the hostel where he was staying. Putting on anything like a suicide vest should have caused immediate intervention.

    Who knows what was going on. It is possible that the police officers thought Amman was cooperating with them and the attack took them completely by surprise and they panicked. But this is just one possibility.

    In any case, questions need to be asked. However, you look at it, grave errors in judgement were made.

    • N_

      It’s unlikely the police panicked. That Amman can’t now answer anybody’s questions is probably not an accident.

      Is there an official story yet as to how many officers were in the surveillance team? Was it two or three or are we talking about six or eight? Was the surveillance round the clock?

      I haven’t looked at the details, but is it possible Amman was either engaged in a covert action or in training? Perhaps HE thought he was cooperating with a surveillance team. Just a thought.

      • Skye Mull

        This all seems to be part of a current way of thinking that everything is the fault of someone else. Poor old criminals are apparently the victims of society.

        • N_

          “It’s been so trendy to be against hanging and flogging, but the 1960s longhair pro-European types are going to get their comeuppance now.”

          Seriously, @SkyeMull, nobody says muggers or drug dealers are wholly innocent “victims of society”, not even when we get together to grow our hair long, read the Guardian, send our spy reports to the Kremlin, and do whatever else is currently in fashion, out of sight of the Daily Mail readers behind their net curtains.

      • OnlyHalfALooney

        There is this Sky News report.(I agree not the most trustable source, but perhaps less “government-minded” than the BBC.)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKxE3DCSjU0

        The policeman on the blue motorbike is seen following(?) Amman on the street. Later the same motorbike is there when Amman is shot.(from 2.14 in the video). There is also a grey car (obviously also a police vehicle) and a white Mercedes van with darkened rear windows parked as if responding to the events. The white Mercedes van rather mysteriously drives away quickly after the shooting. Both vehicles were standing on the cycle lane outside Boots and Iceland in Streatham (If you take a look on Google Maps Streetview) so not just parked.

        There are three different plainclothes police officers visible in the video. Two with weapons drawn and covered faces. Another in black and uncovered face who gets something out of his backpack before hailing down a responding black police BMW.

        Otherwise I don’t know any more than you do.

    • Republicofscotland

      “If I understand things correctly, Sudesh Amman was being closely followed by “plain clothes police officers” one of whom was on a motorbike. Yet he was able to steal a knife from a shop. After stabbing one victim he was able to stab a second. And yet the police officers took 60 seconds to shoot him.”

      I’m under the impression that security forces groom the most vulnerable of young Muslim men, and aid and encourage them on whatever the agenda might call for at a particular time.

      Handlers keeping an eye on them on the day that they’re required to carry out a task must surely be quite common, to make sure the task and the desired affect is achieved.

      Once the objective is reached nearby assets can remove the prime target, and the spokesperson can release his pre-written speech to the media, and on to us the masses.

  • N_

    Distributing writings or videos is not a “thought crime”. I haven’t followed this case, so I don’t know whether there was much effort to plead mitigation, but there are some kinds of writings and videos for which distribution should, at least usually, carry a prison sentence.

    Meanwhile…what is going on with Dominic Cummings? The broader question is what is going on at the helm of the British state right now, in the run-up to the Budget, the Reshuffle, and the possible Great Reorganisation. Daily Mirror article. Letters to the Guardian in response to Stefan Collini’s piece. Collini’s piece, “Inside the Mind of Dominic Cummings”. I wouldn’t have written that piece the way Collini did: he sidelines Cummings’s belief in IQ, which is a mistake and stops him from getting a handle on Cummings’s elitism. It is possible DC got affected by the Collini piece. It’s also possible that he doesn’t bother reading such stuff. Cambridgologists will know that Collini is at Clare Hall and not at Trinity like DC’s pal the mathematician Timothy Gowers. DC probably looks down his nose at Clare Hall and thinks it’s a) haha, not Trinity, and b) not a patch on All Souls at Oxford. (Who knows what “branching paths” the world may travel along in the future? But in some of them, Cummings ends up as a fellow of All Souls, lol! In others he ends up in Silicon Valley. In still others…who knows?) Some of those letter writers to the Guardian don’t get it, including the guy who writes that “Cummings the technocrat appears not to have understood [Bismarck’s] view that politics is not an exact science but an art, the art of the possible”. Of course Cummings understands that, as is very clear if you take the care to read Cummings’s work rather than what other people say about it. (See for example Cummings’s references to Bismarck in his review of Graham Allison’s book on whether a US-Chinese war can be avoided.) Similarly Boris Johnson has expressed admiration for Jean Monnet.

    The Daily Mirror are hinting that DC is slipping into mental illness. He himself isn’t helping much by referencing a children’s cartoon programme. But there could be a problem with HS2. HS2 is a multibillion-pound scam, and DC wants to save billions from being spent on such scams and to spend the money instead on bringing about structural change. It’s not clear whether DC is calling the existing cabinet a bunch of incompetents or whether he is saying that about the cabinet (or whatever it will be called) that is about to appear by the end of this week.

    The idea that “he’s falling out with Carrie” is just a way of saying Johnson and whoever else might be chums with Johnson may soon give DC the boot. HS2 may be the best bellwether at the moment. Which is not to say DC can’t swallow defeat on some issues. He can. He is only a semi-dictator.

    • N_

      I’ve now watched the clip of Dominic Cummings responding to this morning’s dose of harassment outside his house, and his comment that P J Masks would do a better job than all of the cabinet put together probably had little behind it…

      …unlike his carrying of Roger Faligot’s book “Chinese Spies” recently, which was surely calculated, lol.

    • Tom Welsh

      “… there are some kinds of writings and videos for which distribution should, at least usually, carry a prison sentence”.

      Such as? Please be specific. It seems that you are in favour of censorship, which is a bold step to take – and one which can rarely be reversed.

      Take care that, one day soon, you do not find your own opinions forbidden or punishable by imprisonment.

      • Republicofscotland

        Lets see now.

        Religious hate speech writings, which incite violence and murder. Child porongraphy videos. Animal abuse videos.

        Of course different countries hold different views, such as say the death threats against Salman Rushdie for his Satanic verses, which we in the West found bizarre, but in several Western countries you could face imprisonment for non conforming literature on the WWII Holocaust.

      • N_

        Sure, I will be specific. Child pornography. De Sade’s “Juliette”. The kind of jihadist literature that calls for murder. Snuff videos.

        I’m not for censorship. Censorship is when works have to be submitted before publication to a state official who gives permission to publish, refuses permission to publish, or requires certain redactions. I am for banning the distribution of certain types of literature. That’s what the law currently does – including in respect of the first three items that I mentioned, although unfortunately not yet the fourth.

        Do you propose that the distribution of child pornography should be legalised, or that it should only be punished with a non-custodial sentence, or what?

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