9/11 Building 7 UAF engineering report continued.

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  • #52557 Reply

    “Have you considered that there may have been some ‘bloody clever’ scientists somewhere who created it, and that it was spread deliberately?”
    Paul, this has been thoroughly debunked so many times it is not worth answering any more because it just shows you are unwilling to considere any evidence except what comes from your trusted conspiracy websites. Good luck.

    #52558 Reply

    I think it’s possible that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, but not spread deliberately because everyone is equally vulnerable, so who would spread it? It’s no use as a weapon because it can’t be targetted.

    Biolab security is a joke. A very bad one. Lots of people are trying to blame China, but biolabs are run just the same the world over. They should be in isolated places with staff working three months resident at the facility; six weeks work then six weeks quarantine before leaving. But instead they’re nine to five jobs in major city centres. Madness, but much cheaper, of course.

    #52559 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark April 26, 2020 at 00:30
    Obviously I agree with him there, but that is why I take the advice of alternative doctors and scientists re vaccines and the like. Of course there are some charlatans and snake-oil salesmen out there, but I would rather trust my judgement on who to believe, than to believe known downright sociopathic crooks.

    #52560 Reply

    SA, that speculation still has considerable expert support. Minority opinion, but not ruled out so far as I know. Just because SARS-CoV-2 came through bats doesn’t mean the bats weren’t in a lab.

    #52561 Reply

    “I would rather trust my judgement on who to believe”

    There is lots of evidence, and good techniques for assessing it. By helping each other we can do much better than our individual judgement.

    eg. look at the “covid-19 is just like seasonal flu” claim. That can be disproved by the sudden surge in the overall mortality rate. Thus we can eliminate that claim by logic, making judgement that much easier.

    #52562 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark April 26, 2020 at 10:34
    Have you read the Aletho News article ‘WUHAN OUTBREAK: CHINA DEMANDS AN HONEST ACCOUNTING’ I posted on the ‘Vaccine’ thread? Certainly makes a whole lot of sense.
    ‘…but not spread deliberately because everyone is equally vulnerable…’
    Not if they had a vaccine ready already – see Del Bigtree ‘Open Mike’ link on the vaxx thread.
    And there are different strains – isn’t it rather odd that the only country which has lost a fair number of high government officials (as well as ordinary folk) is Iran?
    Whether BoJo really had the virus is questionable, as far as I am concerned.
    And if they did have a vaccine ready before it was released, it does not mean any vaccine they come up with for the masses will be the same vaccine.
    Look at Depleted Uranium – the PTB knew their own forces would be exposed, but used it anyhow – see ‘Beyond Treason’ with Dr. Doug Rokke.

    #52563 Reply

    Science isn’t a matter of who to believe. That’s just the way the “news” media present it, because most journalists and editors treat everything like politics or crime; they don’t know any better.

    Science is a matter of considering evidence, and there’s lots of that which is available to the public, if you know where to look.

    Vaccine dangers and safety are a good example. These are checked from public health service records. I’m not saying it’s infallible, but it’s much, much better than secret trials by manufacturers hidden behind NDAs.

    #52564 Reply

    “Not if they had a vaccine ready already”

    But to really know that a vaccine is safe and effective its effects need to be seen in thousands of people. The more people, the better the test. Some adverse reaction only occur in 1 in 10,000 or 100,000 people. And to know if it works, those people have to be exposed to the infection. So unless there are labs somewhere with at least a million test subjects held prisoner, and perfectly secure to viral escape even through the prison guards, properly understanding the vaccine would require release of the virus.

    When it comes to testing medicine, the elite are in the same boat as everyone else, because we’re all human.

    #52565 Reply

    “it does not mean any vaccine they come up with for the masses will be the same vaccine”

    The vaccine for the masses would always be better tested than the secret one, because the more people effects are seen in the better it is understood.

    #52566 Reply

    “Look at Depleted Uranium – the PTB knew their own forces would be exposed, but used it anyhow”

    Yes, they didn’t and don’t care about anyone in the war zone, irrespective of sides.

    But there was no way the DU was going to turn up in their own back yard. Not so with a virus.

    #52567 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark April 26, 2020 at 11:10
    You probably haven’t yet watched the White House Open Mike video.
    On the basis of your comment, there would be no biological warfare plans at all, because the perps wouldn’t have protection themselves. I’m sure you would agree that biowarfare is indeed planned for, with stockpiles of bio-weapons ready and waiting for deployment.
    They had a vaccine for anthrax, which was given to Congressmen and others pre the 9/11 anthrax attacks – how did they test those vaccines?

    #52568 Reply

    I know very little about anthrax, so I looked it up.

    It doesn’t spread directly between people, and that would make its effects much more localised. Anthrax was a natural disease. The first vaccine was in 1881, and the current one was developed in 1960.

    #52569 Reply

    Science isn’t like foreign policy, and being a scientist isn’t like being a spook. Science is more like a jigsaw puzzle, the pieces are on display and the objective is to fit them together, whereas foreign policy is like poker, loads of bluff and no card is known until it’s played.

    #52571 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark April 26, 2020 at 11:12
    The vaccine for the masses would always be better tested than the secret one, because the more people effects are seen in the better it is understood.
    You missed my implied point – the would deliberately make a dangerous vaccine, for ‘culling’ purposes; could be one with adjuvants like aluminium, another with something more deadly, to be targeted in some fashion, maybe racially (as per PNAC document).

    #52572 Reply

    The culling theory is nearly always directed at the UN, so I reckon it’s for spreading distrust because some US parties would rather there was no International Law at all. When the US/UK etc. want to smash some country, the corporate media mention the UN and International Law as little as possible. Remember how they kept throwing doubt on the UN weapons inspections in Iraq, which kept coming up negative. That was cast as “look how slow the UN Inspectors are – they’re procrastinating, they’d have found the weapons by now if they were really looking for them. Get on with it; time for war!”

    #52573 Reply

    It was cast as if the weapons inspectors were in the way ; “admit it, you can’t find them. Give up and get out so that we can attack!”

    #52576 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark April 26, 2020 at 11:18
    ‘…But there was no way the DU was going to turn up in their own back yard. Not so with a virus…’
    It does turn up in their backyard, and has, but in much smaller amounts, via dust storms. But it turns up quite a lot in their ‘allies’ regimes, like in the Middle East.
    And like the tremendous pollution from the oil field fire set by the Yanks deliberately, just so Kuwait would have to pay a US firm to put them out.
    I was told this years back by Ian Crane, who explained it to our group of 9/11 Truthers. He had been in the area at the time, as an oilfield worker (he had a high position – I forget what it was) and he when he asked questions about the fires, was told to basically shut up about it (like Craig). Then recently I saw a Coronavirus video of a Dr. who was in the US military in the area at the time, and he told the same story, but in far greater detail.
    That pollution spread over Kuwait, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and any ‘Coalition’ troops in the area.

    #52577 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark April 26, 2020 at 12:53
    The UN is largely controlled by the US, and the NWO (which is being planned and worked towards) will likely ostensibly be run from the UN. Gates is a great believer in culling with vaccines, and not just by sterilisation.

    #52589 Reply

    Oh the US dominates everything, but that’s not a good reason to give up on things. There’s still the General Assembly, and most of those countries have serious grievance towards the US, even though they are often also dominated by the US and accept compromises that they’d rather not.

    Actually, it isn’t the US; capital dominates everything, especially the US. Mammon.

    #52622 Reply

    You can just buy lab coats

    #52648 Reply

    The lawyer who influenced William Rodriguez was Phil Berg, in Summer 2004.

    #52649 Reply
    Tony M

    DU is just as likely to turn up here -sometimes the wind dumps matter, sand from the Sahara for example, here, did so heavily just a few weeks ago, so of course it’s circulating far and wide, as Paul B commented up there. Human activity and nature disturbs it all the time. And don’t assume from the name it is just Uranium, or that it’s pure, it’s full of lots of other stuff, as much if not nastier too, about 8% of it. It’s in the air, water and soil, everywhere.

    Clark just makes these evidence-free pronouncements all the time, especially on nuclear-related matters, knee-jerk downplaying the lethality and danger to all life. He’s hilarous, but dangerous too.

    #52650 Reply

    Tony M, what do you think depleted uranium is, and where do you think it comes from? And what does the 8% consist of, and where do you think that comes from? And where are you getting these ideas? Five questions there…

    #52655 Reply
    Tony M

    Sorry the 8% was working from memory, now that I’ve looked it up, militarized DU is typically around 98 percent uranium-238, more concentrated than any material of its kind, of a toxicity and in a form which has never existed on earth. The other two percent has been found to include, but is not limited to : uranium-235, uranium-234, uranium-236, thorium-234, protactinium-234m, protactinium-234, neptunium-237, plutonium-238, plutonium-239, plutonium-240, americium-241, technicium-99. A deadly cocktail that’s never ever going to fade away. You seem to have an unwillingness to do research which does not serve to confirm your pre-existing ideas and indoctrination, yet pose as an expert in all things, usually in support of , excusing, downplaying elite criminal and moral wrong-doing.

    #52656 Reply

    Tony M, the point I made stands; it is unlikely that SARS-CoV-2 was deliberately released as a weapon because it can’t be targeted. The DU used in, say, Fallujah has not caused anything like as many birth defects in the rest of the world.

    “You seem to have an unwillingness to do research which does not serve to confirm your pre-existing ideas and indoctrination, yet pose as an expert in all things, usually in support of , excusing, downplaying elite criminal and moral wrong-doing.”

    Please don’t be rude, and please don’t say things about me that are false; I have worked with Craig and this site for over a decade, opposing and campaigning against war and torture. I’m doing research, by asking you. I understand that you’re angry; I am angry too, but making false accusations against you would not help, and I’d like you to understand that your false accusations against me definitely hinder; they damage my emotional state, sap my enthusiasm and waste my time in refuting them. Such searing moral superiority drives people from the cause.

    Truth, Justice, Peace.

    We can’t achieve peace without justice, and justice can only be based upon truth. When false allegations are made they are easily disproven, which discredits the campaign.

    98% U238 looks a bit odd because even natural uranium is over 99.27% U238, making the DU you refer to possibly look enriched rather than depleted. The other substances you list would be found also in natural uranium, apart from technetium-99.

    Did we have a similar conversation years ago? Because I remember being told of impurities and suggesting that uranium from reprocessing might have been used in munitions. I see that the Wikipedia article now includes a UN report that uranium from reprocessing was found in Kosovo in November 2000 (the cited article has gone so I modified the citation to include archive.org). Such uranium should really be called ‘reprocessed’ rather than ‘depleted’, but it would pass the US military’s definition which is based merely upon percentages, not source. Selling waste from the reprocessing industry for munitions manufacture might have been abused as a way of disposing of it; I can’t think of any other advantage.

    #52657 Reply

    Tony M, look at this this and some of these images. Those rotting cylinders are all full of DUF6. That’s one of three such yards in the US alone. The UK has one somewhere; Russia, China, France, Israel, Iran, Pakistan and India – every nation that has enriched uranium – presumably have similar. All disasters waiting to happen, if it were to get into the ground water.

    Do you know if dispersal in the oceans has been considered? It may be the best thing to do. I expect you’re horrified at the thought, but my estimate is that it would increase ocean concentration of uranium by around 1%, and of course there’s already loads of fluorine in the oceans. At present the US and UK plan is to turn it back into uranium metal, but then what?

    #52660 Reply

    “SA, that speculation still has considerable expert support. Minority opinion, but not ruled out so far as I know. Just because SARS-CoV-2 came through bats doesn’t mean the bats weren’t in a lab.”

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But of course this is the sort of language unfortunately used to sow doubt about Russia and Novichok, Russia and interference with elections, WMD in Iraq and so many other incidents. It is a pattern I am afraid. I think we should look at it the other way round, the way the law operates, innocent until proven guilty, and it is up to the accusers then to produce credible evidence, not just work on hypothetical possibilities.
    And yes the bats may have been in a lab, but which one? The one that was closed down because it was unsafe?

    #52663 Reply

    SA, I’m surprised, but now I must take the same line with you as with Node; politics must not sway scientific considerations.

    Various early genetic indications suggested that NCoV-2019 (as SARS-CoV-2 was then called) had arisen in a lab. Its entry spike had no close match in nature, and the closest found at that time (a 70% match) was with a patent for a lab virus that had been genetically engineered for the attempted development of a vaccine against SARS. That vaccine had been abandoned because it sensitised the test animals (ferrets) such that on exposure to real SARS, they suffered cytokine storm. Interestingly, covid-19 now seems to be displaying a similar trait.

    SA, my argument is that there shouldn’t be any biolabs in cities at all. Trying to use the lab-escape argument to blame China is propaganda; governments all over the world permit biolabs in city centres. On the other hand, in China the authorities did shut down a discussion forum between the first doctors to notice that they were dealing with a new disease. So the Chinese government suppressed information, the UK government pretended everything was fine, and President Trump outright bullshitted – all three typify government corruption of information. Only a handful of governments have come out of this with a decent record. We the people must unite and demand better of our governments, but maybe, hopefully, SARS-CoV-2 will teach that lesson in time to avert massive climate catastrophe.

    The general message is that technology is now so powerful that unregulated capitalism presents risks so great that they cannot be insured against. This first arose with nuclear power; only nation states will underwrite the risk of power reactors, and it is this more than anything else that has slowed the expansion of nuclear power. So I argue that the lab-escape theory must not be swept under the carpet.

    #52666 Reply
    Tony M

    Apologies Clark. I’m sorry. This is the wrong thread of course. I know people, lovely people, clever, caring people, with serious health problems they attribute unambiguously to DU, though they’ve possibly has other service-related exposures such as vaccinations given them in the forces, as well as a possibililty of residual traces of nerve gases dating back to eighties in the areas they found themselves.

    On SARS-COV2 I’m undecided about the origins, the prevalence of so many strains in the US, not seen in China, the ‘vaping’ illnesses, the very many people I’ve spoke to here, across Scotland, who reckon they had it in in mid-December-2019, “the worst flu they’ve ever had in their lives”, fit people, football-players etc. which might still though have been bad cases of flu, but with lingering after-effects after the more florid effects had passed. Discrediting the alleged Chinese origins, reducing likelihood of entirely natural origin, Wuhan labs, or wet-markets. The seeming many strain variations, mutations, composition and possibly genetic specificity and stark differences in effects, from deadly to mild, suggests we may be comparing apples with oranges, and that what ‘the west’ is experiencing is an attenuated form as cover for something much worse unleashed on China, Iran Ecuador etc. We don’t have people walking along then collapsing dead in the streets. I can’t account either for the Spanish and Italian outbreaks other than perhaps some genetic overlap with the indigenous middle-east population. Something is fishy. I never attribute to incompetence or chance that which can more simply be attributed to extreme murderous malice on the part of five-eyes and their puppet-masters.

    #52668 Reply

    I understand what you say that all governments hide and lie.
    The SARS-cov virus used for the vaccine has only 70% homologous to SARS-cov-2, and the latter has about 96.5 homologous with a known bat coronavirus, The main difference being, as I understand in the spike protein which enables it to attach to ACE2 on respiratory alveoli. Such changes can occur by random mutations and may require an intermediate step in another host before it becomes adapted to infect humans. I understand that the scientists working on this virus have ruled out that this was an induced mutation through laboratory genetic modulation, because these leave a telltale fingerprint.
    So ok you have a bat in the lab with a virus but it will still not mean that this bat virus is what caused SARS-cov-2 to emerge spontaneously.
    The problem with making these allegations is that they politicise the science. Allegations have been made by both sides and for political reasons. There are no scientific reasons that explain why scientists in a bio lab facility should deliberately make or encourage such a dangerous pathogen with unknown effects. I guess you can argue that it has escaped but then you have two events to explain, a mutated virus in a lab and it’s escape. Rather unlikely unless these scientists are very sloppy or very evil.

    #52669 Reply

    Plus my point is that it is easy to construct a conspiracy theory than to prove that there is no conspiracy. A tool much used by conspiracy theorists.

    #52670 Reply

    Anyway I thought this was a 911 discussion forum.

    #52676 Reply

    Tony M, I argue that covid-19 was not loose in the UK in mid December because we have seen that infection numbers double every three or four days; it would have been like Wuhan before mid January. The reason for corpses in the streets in Wuhan was that the hospitals overloaded; we’d have seen that in the UK as well if the government hadn’t been persuaded to change policy and impose lockdown on March 23. I find Imperial College’s CoVID-19 model to match the recorded cases and deaths very convincingly; check the rise in the first graph to see where we would have been heading without lockdown:


    Rapid mutation leading to many strains is usual for single-strand RNA viruses, since there is no redundancy / genetic replication correction mechanism.

    The UK ran a pandemic simulation exercise in 2016. The result was that the UK was entirely unprepared. So of course it was covered up and ignored by the government, which serves capital not the people. Let’s not let them off the hook, eh? Ultimately it doesn’t matter where SARS-CoV-2 originated, the government response to it was hideous, disgusting:

    ‘For Unknown Reasons They Waited. And Watched’ – Lancet Editor Exposes Devastating Government Failure On Coronavirus

    “…citing government scientific adviser Graham Medley, who said in an interview on Newsnight just last week that the UK’s approach was to allow ‘a controlled epidemic’ of large numbers of people, which would generate ‘herd immunity’. Medley suggested that, ‘ideally’, we might need ‘a nice big epidemic’ among the less vulnerable.”

    Let’s take a moment to consider what that would have meant. When covid-19 kills it does so horribly; days of agonising struggle for breath until, usually, the heart fails under the strain of trying to compensate for lack of oxygen from the lungs. Covid-19’s spread can be slowed down by lockdown, but over time just as many people will need critical care. But without lockdown all (say) 500,000 will need it in the course of just one month, but with only 5000 places available nationally 99% of them are not going to get it. Twice as many will die than if care were available, but all will suffer horribly whether they eventually die or not. Many, living alone, would be left to care for themselves, but being entirely incapacitated would be unable to do so. The government policy amounted to torturing hundreds of thousands of people, half or more of them to death, many of them alone and slowly starving, all for the sake of the economy. At least in hospital their last days can be made comfortable after a long and productive life. With proper personal protective equipment that the government refused to invest in, their last days could be social as well.

    #52677 Reply

    SA, Tony, I’m not worried about being off-topic on this thread; I started it and all the WTC7 evidence has already been presented.

    #52678 Reply

    SA: – “The main difference being, as I understand in the spike protein which enables it to attach to ACE2 on respiratory alveoli.”

    Yes, that’s the bit that resembles the genetically engineered SARS vaccine virus.

    Maybe SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, maybe it didn’t. But one of the SARS outbreaks did start from a lab escape I think, yet still these labs are in city centres, run with nine-to-five jobs rather than three month work placements in combined live-in and post-work quarantine facilities in remote locations. Why? Money, of course.

    #52679 Reply

    Tony M, I’m sorry about your services friends. A friend of mine lost a friend of his when Thatcher enthusiastically chose war over the Falkland Islands.

    Yes, it is unlikely that the effects of various battlefield toxins will ever be sorted out. War is bad for our health; it’s such a truism that I hesitated to type it.

    My attitude to nuclear power has changed over the years. A friend of mine pointed out that a single power reactor contains a similar quantity of radioactive material as would be released in an entire global nuclear conflict. There are some 440 power reactors on Earth, most near sea level, which is rising; these must be shut down and defuelled. And I used to think that wind and solar couldn’t supply enough power, but more recent rapid development is proving otherwise. But we still need continent-scale high voltage grid.

    I oppose nuclear weapons and dinosaur power reactors and but not nuclear technology in general, eg. research reactors produce isotopes essential for imaging, medicine and industry. And it’s always important to get facts right and not exaggerate, or when bystanders present our complaints to the technical community the reply they’ll get is “well that’s just bollox, these people must be crazy”.

    #52686 Reply

    Yes, that’s the bit that resembles the genetically engineered SARS vaccine virus.

    “Maybe SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, maybe it didn’t. But one of the SARS outbreaks did start from a lab escape I think, “

    You start with maybe and then end with I think. That really is exactly my point and similar to how these CTs start and then are taken as fact. Postulating that something happened because it can happen theoretically and because there are superficial resemblances to other events is enough to start a conspiracy theory but is no evidence that something has happened. CTs are used to divert from real issues to be dealt with. In this case the major story is how incompetent And negligent US and U.K. governments Have been. China is being used to divert from this basic fact.
    As to where bio labs should be sited, of course one can have ideas but I am afraid neither of us knows enough about this to pontificate.

    #52700 Reply

    SA, I’m not going to settle on the bat origin theory just because it’s becoming mainstream, nor because the lab escape theory is getting used for bashing the Chinese government.

    If I was benevolent dictator of the world for a year, I’d have all the surveillance systems and security cameras turned to point the other way. Instead of surveillance upon the people concentrating data into the possession of corporations and governments, I’d have the surveillance in all the labs, boardrooms and factories etc., both government and private, distributing all that data and making it available to the entire global population. Under such circumstances I would expect conspiracy theories to wither, because instead of speculating, anyone with a suspicion could just access the system and look for themselves.

    Then we’d see what we should really be outraged about. We’d have seen the local Chinese housing authorities enforcing the lockdown by welding shut the apartment block doors. We’d have heard the screams in the night and seen the backlog of corpses at the crematoria, and what was coming would have been common knowledge. We’d have seen Boris Johnson and his cabinet chuckling about the irrelevance of what we’d just seen and trading lives against profit for various timings and degrees of social restrictions. We’d see Trump failing to work out how to open his cornflakes and praying on the matter before finally calling his national security advisor to help him.

    Religion has long taught of an omniscient God as an encouragement to conscience. I say let’s build public omniscience. The person who made a start is in Belmarsh prison awaiting extradition, and that speaks volumes about good and evil.

    #52710 Reply

    “SA, I’m not going to settle on the bat origin theory just because it’s becoming mainstream,”
    No but you could if it was explained scientifically as it has been, Are you questioning the scientific data from many groups? Sorry no links but I am sure you can find them.

    #52712 Reply

    SA, SARS did escape from a lab. Twice. You might have confirmed to save me having to go and check. Foot and Mouth also escaped from a lab.

    I see that there is this statement in the Lancet from nearly thirty authors and backed by a dozen citations:

    “We are public health scientists who have closely followed the emergence of 2019 novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and are deeply concerned about its impact on global health and wellbeing. We have watched as the scientists, public health professionals, and medical professionals of China, in particular, have worked diligently and effectively to rapidly identify the pathogen behind this outbreak, put in place significant measures to reduce its impact, and share their results transparently with the global health community. This effort has been remarkable./em>

    – We sign this statement in solidarity with all scientists and health professionals in China who continue to save lives and protect global health during the challenge of the COVID-19 outbreak. We are all in this together, with our Chinese counterparts in the forefront, against this new viral threat.

    – The rapid, open, and transparent sharing of data on this outbreak is now being threatened by rumours and misinformation around its origins. We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin. Scientists from multiple countries have published and analysed genomes of the causative agent, severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2),1
    and they overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife, as have so many other emerging pathogens. This is further supported by a letter from the presidents of the US National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine13
    and by the scientific communities they represent. Conspiracy theories do nothing but create fear, rumours, and prejudice that jeopardise our global collaboration in the fight against this virus. We support the call from the Director-General of WHO to promote scientific evidence and unity over misinformation and conjecture.
    We want you, the science and health professionals of China, to know that we stand with you in your fight against this virus.

    – We invite others to join us in supporting the scientists, public health professionals, and medical professionals of Wuhan and across China. Stand with our colleagues on the frontline!

    – We speak in one voice. To add your support for this statement, sign our letter online. LM is editor of ProMED-mail. We declare no competing interests.”

    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    OK, so early work suggesting a lab escape seems to be contradicted by later work, and a consensus has developed around origin in the wild.

    But the statement itself suggests something more alarming. How has the lab escape theory threatened free flow of information? That shouldn’t happen, and this statement shouldn’t be necessary. Do I smell politics again?

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