This topic contains 4 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by mods-cm-org 2 months, 1 week ago.
August 8, 2019 at 09:25 #46222
[ Mod: Moved from the comment section, as it raises an important issue about moderation which warrants some clarification. ]
[ Mod: Here’s a reminder of an announcement Craig made two years ago:-
Blog Housekeeping Point
Marine LePen is an actual racist and fascist. Anybody arguing for her will be permanently banned from commenting on the blog. Fair warning.
The same holds for anyone advocating the politics of Geert Wilders. ]
In reply to RandomComment.
To Random Comment (more accurately to the “gentlefolk on scooters”)
I’m fairly new to this blog, so I don’t regard Mr Murray’s “Blog Housekeeping Point” – whatever that might be – of two years ago to be “fair warning”. Now that Admin has drawn everyone’s attention to it, however, I am moved to comment for the first time.
Whilst I have no strong attraction to French or Dutch politics in particular, very little interest in the views of Le Pen or Wilders, and a positive distaste for such as Alexander Gauland and Orbán Viktor, I am surprised at the “slapping down” of RC above. Like most sensible people, I agree that the politics of these extremists is at least partially fuelled by precisely the causes that RC highlights. I don’t think it really matters what label you attach to such politicians; “left” and “right” have become largely redundant since the Bolshevism and National Socialism were <i>en vogue</i>, and even more so in the last twenty-five years in my direct experience.
A blanket ban by Mr Murray on discussing such topics is shocking enough, but claiming Marine Le Pen to be a Fascist seems altogether de trop. While I can see the absolute need to steer clear of such as moon landing and 9/11 tinfoil millinery (the blog server would otherwise crash), stimying discussion is surely not what this place is about. I’ve always found “give ’em enough rope and they’ll hang themselves” a useful vade mecum.
Not impressed, but at least we’ve all been reminded to avoid such hot potatoes as the politics of modern European nationalists (unless they’re Scots). I was always more of a rocker myself, and I found Quadrophenia really boring.
August 8, 2019 at 10:28 #46230
Thank you for your comment, Markus. I accept that the moderation comments could be perceived as terse. However, the objective is not to prevent commentary, but to keep it within acceptable boundaries.
Please note that ‘RandomComment’ was not slapped down, moderated or criticized. RC did not express explicit support for either Marine Le Pen or Geert Wilders; however, he/she was sailing pretty close to the edge. The message could be construed as attempting to humanise their well-known policies of exclusion on the grounds of nationality, race and religion. The moderation reminder was posted to warn other commenters that expressing sympathy for such odious views would be wasted effort as the comments would be removed. Craig’s ruling was debated at length in the relevant thread, which you are welcome to peruse in detail: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/04/blog-housekeeping-point/comment-page-1/#comments
To clarify, there is no ban on discussing right-wing European politics nor the policies of Marine Le Pen. However, there is a ban on supporting, advocating or sympathising with fascist policies – and Craig clearly identifies Marine Le Pen as a racist and a fascist. You may disagree, and you are welcome to say so here.
Craig is adamant that he does not want people expressing support for xenophobes or xenophobic policies on this website.
Nobody is preventing you discussing the matters you just in fact discussed. You are being prevented from expressing support for Ms LePen. If that bothers you, you should leave and not return. My suspicion is many of the so-called “left wing” Brexiteers who comment on this site are in fact supporters of LePen and her ilk. I am calling them out.
You have only to condemn Ms LePen and her racism, and you can discuss what you like about globalisation …
As I very clearly stated, expressing support for Marine LePen, who is a fascist, will get you banned.
I am not denying anyone free speech. The internet is an almost infinite available space. I do not want supporters of fascism on my blog any more than I would want them in my home. I am sorry if you do not like it.
If I owned a pub I would not be obliged to allow the BNP to hold meetings in it. I do not believe people ought not be allowed to support fascism. I just do not wish them to do it on my website.
If they drank sociably I would not ban them. If they made racist and BNP supporting comments I would ban them from the pub. Seems a perfectly good parallel to me.
You may regard his condemnation of Le Pen as excessively harsh – but he’s the boss and them’s the rules. There is certainly no equivocation, so you should be in doubt as to what kind of political statements are deemed unacceptable here. If you disagree, you are welcome to voice your dissent in this forum – as long as you remain within those rhetorical boundaries. If, however, you actually want to voice support for Le Pen or Wilder, your comments would be more likely to survive moderation on a right-wing forum such as 8chan.
I hope that’s cleared up any confusion.
August 8, 2019 at 18:21 #46247
Please understand I don’t want to be banned but I fail to see how refusing to engage with racists or fascists does anything at all beyond abdicate the position of moral authority? Surely we have a duty to defeat their arguments with fact and logic?
Blood and soil racist types (ie the ones with an actual ideology) crave the validation of being told to shut up and go away, it allows them to pose as a wronged minority, ‘bravely’ speaking truth to power. History suggests fascism arises in democratic societies when they are faced with a political problem without a democratic solution so surely refusing to have the argument only further entrenches this line of thinking in those who already display it, and encourages it in anybody reading who hasn’t formed an opinion on the issue? Seems short sighted at best.
August 8, 2019 at 19:19 #46251
As this relates to my comment, let me make a few remarks. Firstly thanks for the support Markus, Northern, you make points I would make myself. Secondly, as it’s Craig’s blog, I don’t have any problem with him disallowing things he doesn’t agree with in “his space”.
My personal feeling is that I don’t feel “slapped down” at all – every act of censorship is an act of cowardice and deception. Far better to defeat ideas out in the open and let the best ones win. By shutting someone down, all you do is help validate their point.
Anyways, fascism, in all its forms, is abhorrent to me. I believe censorship is in itself a fascist concept, and I see it as digital book-burning.
Nonetheless, it’s Craig’s blog, Craig’s rules and I see no reason to disrespect them if I want to comment here. If there’s a hit list I’m unaware of (Trump, Orban, Salvini, Xi etc) please let me know where I can find it.
PS As I’m somewhat technically aware, how do you propose to perma-ban me? On IP address and browser? 😉
Anyway, it was not my intention to offend anyone. Peace to all.
August 8, 2019 at 21:43 #46254
Hi RandomComment. Your feedback is welcome, and you make a valid point that it may be better to expose and condemn bigotry than to suppress it. However, I should reiterate that you have not been threatened with a ban. Let me draw your attention to some important parts of the foregoing moderation messages:
Please note that ‘RandomComment’ was not slapped down, moderated or criticized. RC did not express explicit support for either Marine Le Pen or Geert Wilders …
The moderation reminder was posted to warn other commenters …
To clarify, there is no ban on discussing right-wing European politics nor the policies of Marine Le Pen. However, there is a ban on supporting, advocating or sympathising with fascist policies …
You may disagree, and you are welcome to say so here.
If you disagree, you are welcome to voice your dissent in this forum – as long as you remain within those rhetorical boundaries.
Given that you weren’t “slapped down, moderated or criticized” for what you said earlier (it was actually a warning for “other commenters”), and that you’ve now clarified “Anyways, fascism, in all its forms, is abhorrent to me”, there is therefore no basis for assuming that you’re in line for a ban. Clearly the take-away message is that comments in support of Marine Le Pen or other overt fascists are not welcome here. So as you’re not planning to make any, the question of self-censorship or banning does not arise.
Regarding the “hitlist” of proscribed fascists, the only ones mentioned so far are Marine Le Pen (who leads a fascist party) and Geert Wilders (who formally collaborated with her in the European Parliament and was convicted for hate speech). That should be enough to establish the general template.
I hope that provides some reassurance.