Conspiracy Theorists, Why is Westminster Lifting All COVID Restrictions?


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  • #75307 Reply
    ET

    Daily new confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people
    Some perspective. It’s difficult to take the IOC seriously when they make such a claim. Equally, it can never be proven that the games did have an effect. So they’ll get away with such a statement.

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    #75309 Reply
    ET

    OK, that post didn’t work out. Click on the x-axis and it will move to the recent figures and choose what countries you want.

    #75403 Reply
    michael norton

    The government of France is pressing ahead with the extension of an already-existing health pass to cafés, restaurants and intercity travel on Monday, 09/08/2021, despite four weekends of angry protests that saw almost a quarter of a million rally nationwide on Saturday.

    Not actually quite sure why people in France are always so angry?
    There is a pandemic.
    Free vaccines are being offered.
    Get your covid jabs, then get on with life.
    You can vote Macron out next year but meanwhile get your jabs.

    #75418 Reply
    ET

    Pharmaceutical firms rake in billions with Covid jabs……….

    “BioNTech reported on Tuesday revenues of $7.3 billion euros in the first half. Unlike its larger partner, the company’s only product on sale is the coronavirus vaccine.”

    Note, it’s revenue not profit as are all the other figures quoted in this piece. However, I’ll bet a significant percentage is profit.

    #75430 Reply
    michael norton

    Iran is in its fourth covid wave.
    They have huge numbers in critical care and huge numbers of daily new cases.
    I thought they were going to rely on China and Russia for vaccines.
    It has been said that the vaccines from China are not very useful.
    Russia seems to be struggling to make enough, thereby not exporting enough.

    #75482 Reply
    michael norton

    Although President Macron is clamping down on the civil liberties of French people, their numbers in critical care continue to escalate.

    Their overseas countries are also not doing too well.

    France’s overseas territory of Guadeloupe is to return to lockdown for at least three weeks because of a “catastrophic” surge in Covid cases, officials announced Monday.
    https://www.france24.com/en/france/

    #75483 Reply
    michael norton

    The U.S.A. State Department has advised all Americans to avoid all travel to France over rising coronavirus cases in the country.
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210810-us-warns-citizens-against-travel-to-france-over-covid-19-concerns
    France is now in to a fourth wave of covid-19. The State Department issued a “Level 4: Do Not Travel” advisory for France on Monday, based on a parallel warning from the US Centers for Disease Control, the country’s top medical body.

    What strikes me as peculiar, we had France on a watch list, yet a few days ago we took France off our watch list.

    Is this joined-up-thinking?

    #75484 Reply
    michael norton

    “France’s overseas territories — left under French rule even after the end of colonialism — are integral parts of the FRENCH territory and give Paris a valued strategic footprint across the planet.”

    However, the French Authorities have allowed the covid pandemic to get out of control on most of their overseas lands.
    Only the other week Macron was larking about wearing garlands of floweres in French Oceania.

    The aim of the governments rolling out this measure is to boost vaccinations against COVID-19. The region has been facing a surge of new infections blamed on the more transmissible and more dangerous Delta variant.

    But the measure has been met by fierce resistance.

    Tens of thousands of people demonstrated across France last weekend, chanting “Liberty!” and describing the measure as “liberticidal”.
    https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/27/critics-say-covid-19-vaccine-passes-violate-their-rights-europe-s-courts-may-not-agree

    I would say, as far as the covid pandemic, that the government of France is not wining, they do not have most of the people with them, many of their people do not trust their government,they were slow off the mark with covid vaccinations, they have let their overseas lands slip dangerously out of control, with the pandemic.

    #75495 Reply
    ET

    Comparing cases per milion population USA and France are on an equal footing, rising in both countries but not as high as Spain or UK with UK numbers (Hospital admissions, Ventilated patients and cases) beginning to climb again. Deaths per million are highest in USA with UK just behind. By pretty much all metrics UK is doing worse than any other comparable country except perhaps USA. By that reckoning USA should advise against travel to USA? (and UK)

    France’s vaccination rate is still slightly behind UK but they are not far off although they have fewer fully vaccinated and more partially vaccinated. The difference is 3%. Almost everywhere rolled out their vaccinations slower than UK because of availability. That situation has changed and UK is no longer the outlier with some countries having better vaccination rates than UK. Canada, Spain and Ireland for instance.

    Lets be honest, no country has eliminated it, cases and other metrics are rising pretty much everywhere despite the vaccinations and the two worst performing countries are USA and UK.

    The better news is that the deaths, hospitalisations, ventilatted patients numbers are fewer than they were for similar case numbers in the past. Vaccinations appear to be the main reason for this. However it remains a huge concern with the world awaiting a further variant. The end is nowhere near in view imho.

    #75521 Reply
    michael norton

    Russia, France, Spain and the U.K. each day post similar covid positive cases.
    Spain and France presently have more than twice the number of persons in critical care, as does the U.K.
    Quite recently the U.K. was posting very high numbers of covid positive cases.
    I think that as the U.K. tests very many more persons, than any other country in Europe, that we must be recording people who have very, very mild symptoms.
    The opposite of this coin is that hardly anybody is tested in France, unless they are very sick.
    If I am right in my thinking, then France probably has many more cases than they admit to.
    In short we are singing from different hymn sheets.

    #75522 Reply
    Clark

    Entirely off-topic, but as I started the thread I might get away with it, and we could all use some light relief…

    It’s the peak of the Perseid annual meteor shower some time around now; tonight and the next two nights could be good times to take a look, if it isn’t too cloudy. There should be around a hundred per hour, though you can’t see all of those. They all appear to streak away from the same point in the sky, in the constellation of Perseus, but can appear any distance from it in any part of the sky, so the best way to see as many as possible is to choose the darkest spot with as few obstructions of the horizon as you can, and relax on a blanket or a deckchair taking in as much of the sky as you can. Good luck!

    #75535 Reply
    Clark

    Deaths, and the number in basic and critical care, are indeed more consistent indicators of overall infection prevalence than positive test results. But caution is needed because vaccination – with all its variables of which vaccine, how many shots, how far apart and to which vulnerability groups – is decreasing the number of severe cases relative to infections.

    But comparing most EU countries / US states etc. is a bit like divination from tea leaves or something; they’re all much of a muchness. There may be differences of a factor of ten at any given moment, but over time this proves insignificant in comparison to the few countries and various islands that are implementing a strategy of elimination. Their infection, care and deaths numbers are all 100 to 1000 times lower, and their people on average have spent a fraction of the time under lockdown.

    #75537 Reply
    ET

    Too cloudy here to see anything in the skies.

    Numbers are rising again, that has to be a worry. Israel, the country that vaccinated earlier and most is having similar rises. I suspect that governments have accepted that it will be endemic and we will have periodic excess covid deaths from now on.

    #75560 Reply
    michael norton

    France seems to be getting worse, yesterday the posted in excess of 30,000 new covid positive cases, biggest number for a third of a year. On Moday last their covid-pass came into full use.

    What I find strange, is that the United Kingdom has France on a watch list, because of infection rates in the French Overseas lands, then we changed to them no longer being on our watch list. Yet the French themslves describe their Overseas lands as being out of control with covid infections.

    France itself has moved up the leader board to take TOP SPOT, yesterday. U.S.A. has moved to put France on their watch list.

    In the U.K. we seem to do our damndest to keep the pandemic going?

    #75561 Reply
    michael norton

    In one of my interest groups in which I take physical part, lots of the members also volunteer at vaccination places, they report huge numbers of keen young people, getting there before they open to line up for their first covid jab.
    contrast this good story with France
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210812-france-urges-better-protection-for-covid-19-vaccination-centres-after-vandalism

    According to the interior ministry, some 22 acts of vandalism against testing and vaccination centres as well as pharmacies have been recorded since July 12 alone. Almost 60 threats have also been recorded.

    In mid-July, a vaccination centre in Lans-en-Vercors in southeast France was flooded with a hosepipe, causing damage to equipment. Slogans such as “vaccinations are the new genocide” were found daubed on the walls.

    I can not work out why they are so angry?

    #75569 Reply
    Clark

    Michael, I expect it’s caused by the “United Nations depopulation programme” / Agenda 21 conspiracy theory, which is related to the “MMR vaccination causes autism” conspiracy theory, and anti-vax in general.

    Basically it promotes the idea that the “world’s elite”, AKA “them”, have been planning to kill the majority of the world’s population, that the Club of Rome set out this plan under the name of Agenda 21 (which is a genuine public document), and that this plot is to be implemented by the United Nations using its supposed stranglehold over science. This nonsense has been festering and propagating for decades. Now, due to the pandemic, it has coalesced with anti-vaccination propaganda, and is leading to mobs vandalising vaccination centres and attempting to invade the headquarters of the BBC (but getting the wrong building).

    Humanity seems to be suffering some sort of collective psychosis, especially in the richer nations. I just hope it doesn’t turn into fascism like it did in the 1930s.

    #75575 Reply
    Clark

    People are angry because they’ve been locked down but to no good effect, so it has gone on and on and on, destroying people’s lives and livelihoods.

    Half measures.

    Lockdown is meant to have a purpose. It’s for getting infections down to low enough numbers that trace-test-quarantine can take over, but to do that it needs to be very thorough. It’s no good just telling people to stay home unless they are also given money to keep their lives going, because people will avoid getting tested so that they can go out and work. I know someone who did that; she was working as a carer visiting old people in their homes. She continued to work even when she developed symptoms, because she needed the money. She convinced herself that she just had a head cold or a mild dose of flu. A few days later a routine test by the care company came back positive, so she went into “self isolation” – except of course that (1) it was too late by then and (2) she lived with other family members so it wasn’t isolation – at no point has the UK government set up quarantine facilities.

    Sometimes it’s the employers. I have another friend who was working in a care home kitchen. Kitchen staff were asking the management for time off to self isolate because they were getting symptoms, but against government guidelines the management were sending them for lateral flow tests and insisting that they kept working until a test came back positive, because management couldn’t find interim staff to cover for sick leave. Staff were calling the place a “covid cess pit”. My friend’s job included making up the meal lists; she watched the number of meals drop from sixty to forty as the residents died off. Management had residents locked in their rooms, while the staff infected them with covid. My friend had symptoms for three days before her test came back positive. She was then permitted time off. When she returned to work after her illness, the kitchen chef had been killed by it. He was 61.

    This was in the second lockdown, back in January this year. By then, this country had had a year to reorganise to cope with covid, but it hadn’t been done.

    Governments have lost the trust of the people through incompetence, slavish adherence to their neoliberal ideology, and years of deception and spin. Their ideologically hobbled, half-hearted lockdowns were doomed to failure by having no quarantine, no kerbside food distribution, and no support for the poorest workers. The failure of the lockdowns has made increasing numbers of people think that there must have been some ulterior motive, so they are turning to conspiracy theory instead, which just makes matters worse.

    It’s a colossal tragedy unfolding before our very eyes, but it is nothing compared with what the growing climate and ecological crisis will become unless we learn the lessons of this pandemic.

    #75581 Reply
    Clark

    Of course, governments won’t admit to why they are failing to control covid. Governments never admit to any failure; they bluff and spin in order to protect their chances of re-election.

    This of course increases the public’s distrust. All political parties do it, so there is no one to trust. Consequently more and more people turn to conspiracy theory in a desperate effort to make sense of the world.

    We desperately need a new consensus of openness and transparency. You can’t fix any problem, nor even vote for an effective solution, if you’re obstructed from understanding the problem in the first place.

    #75591 Reply
    ET

    Strangely, if you looks at the share of variants in almost all cases in most european countries and USA are all delta variant but France it’s 43% share of positive cases with the alpha variant (p.1/Brazil) being 48%. Does this mean both are spreading or does it mean France is behind the curve in the propagation of delta? As in, they are about to get hit even harder as delta takes over from alpha.

    “I just hope it doesn’t turn into fascism like it did in the 1930s.”

    I fear we are almost there already.
    Below is a quote from Caitlin Johnstone and I apologise to mods for posting the whole quote but I think it speaks volumes.

    “I might actually end up moving away from using words like “capitalism” and “socialism”, because they have completely different meanings to people from different ideologies. Leftists understand what I mean by those words, but those to the right of me consistently misunderstand what I’m saying because of the way those words are used in their ideological circles. I could just use other words to describe the same stuff I’ve been talking about.

    I run into people who think socialism is when the government does something authoritarian, or when the government does anything at all. I’ve been told that capitalism is when people do what they want to do (someone once literally told me hugs are capitalism), and that capitalism is anything that’s good. You can’t get around communication barriers that thick if you want to convey ideas to large numbers of people, and there’s not necessarily any reason to try to do it that way when I can instead just talk about economic injustice, how everyone should have enough, how systems where mass-scale human behavior is driven by profit-chasing will always lead to imperialism and ecocide, and how greatly people’s lives would be improved if there was democratic control in areas like the workplace.

    I might stop using -ist and -ism words altogether, or use them sparingly, and just talk about the actual concepts without having to rely on any label which tries to capture them all. I already kind of do this, but I can do a much better job of it. I’ve never had a stimulating conversation with anyone who uses a lot of -ists and -isms anyway; mostly they just use it as a crutch to hide the fact that they don’t understand the individual components of the concepts being discussed.”

    I don’t think there is a common “language” of communication between governments and the rest of us and between various groups of us. Objectively, the French government is trying to curtail the spread of the virus and its consequent detrimental effects on the public at large. Some of the public don’t see it that way. It’s not just in France; in Ireland and UK there are vociferous groups with the same sentiment albeit less impactful than in France for now. UK and Ireland are the two countries most accepting of the vaccinations and other measures according to the eurofund study I posted some time ago.

    It’s a bizarre situation.

    #75592 Reply
    michael norton

    “You can’t fix any problem, nor even vote for an effective solution, if you’re obstructed from understanding the problem in the first place.”
    — Quote Clark

    I agree Clark.
    So the questions then turn to why do they do their damndest to stop you learning the truth?
    Why is Julian Assange being tortured by governments in cahoots with each other? Why does his own government of Australia do diddly squat to help him?

    #75604 Reply
    michael norton

    asylum seekers housed at a former military site have been removed from dormitories after they caught Covid-19, the Home Office confirmed.
    The department has not given figures for those infected at Kent’s Napier Barracks but said there had been “a small number” of cases.

    An outbreak at the camp in Folkestone in January led to 200 people catching the virus and calls for its closure. The Home Office said all public health protocols were being followed.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-58186216

    I wonder if lessons ever get learned by officials.

    I guess it is all about cheapness?

    #75605 Reply
    Clark

    Michael, good question. Another is, what can we do to change it?


    [ Mod: Clark, can you specify which of Michael’s questions you’re replying to? It isn’t clear, even discounting the 2 recent comments from Michael that were in the moderation queue when you posted this.

    Ta. ]

    #75614 Reply
    michael norton

    “So the questions then turn to why do they do their damndest to stop you learning the truth?”

    I believe it is about power and control.

    Those in the power structures want to stay in the power structures, like Robert Mugabe. He had to be winkled out by his own wife and generals, he had already gone ga ga. Why did Democrat Jo Biden, want to become president, some think he is already ga ga.

    Some say that Maggie Thatcher was already ga ga, as was Harold Wilson, as some of the leaders of the Soviet Union were, clinging insanely to some sort of power.


    [ Mod (O/T): Michael, with regard to the new discussion topic you started about the First Minister of Scotland: the title should be more specific than “Nicola Sturgeon” and the content should be more informative than “She’s up to something, what is it?”.

    Please don’t reply in this thread. Just post a new topic with a suitable title and substantial content. Thanks. ]

    #75631 Reply
    Clark

    Michael:

    “…why do they do their damndest to stop you learning the truth?”

    i agree that it is about power and control. I have today happened upon a very good article that helps fill in some details:

    https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2021-06-01/wuhan-lab-leak-inquiry/

    What we are dealing with here is a set of professional classes doing everything in their power to preserve their own interests and the interests of the system that rewards them. And that requires strenuous efforts on their part to make sure we do not understand that policy is driven chiefly by greed and a craving for status, not by the common good or by a concern for truth and transparency.

    #75633 Reply
    Clark

    ET, thanks for that excellent excerpt from Caitlin Johnstone.

    Mods – thanks for the reminder. I generally try to be specific, but end up feeling a bit OCD about the attempt. Even more important now that all comments are on pre-mod.

    #75644 Reply
    ET

    I’m all for a duty of candour on all public servants, politicians and indeed private corporations. If you fucked up you must tell everyone you fucked up including near miss events. A duty of candour for public civil servants in political departments must be separate from that of politicians so that one or other owning a mistake does not relieve the other from having to do so also.
    As it stands there is zero incentive for a politician to admit a mistake and little room for civil servants to make such a mistake known.
    If I ruled the world (it’s coming :D) I’d pay politicians very large salaries, enough for life in their first term as an MP, but they can never have another paid job again and their bank accounts are scrutinised by a public body for the remainder of their lives and that of their spouses and children for 10 years after they leave office. Thay could take voluntary work but non paid. Of course, the problem is that any system will be open to some abuse.

    #75667 Reply
    Clark

    Mods and Michael – (belatedly) – the question I was replying to was “So the question then turns to why do they do their damndest to stop you learning the truth?”

    Michael, do please start your First Minister of Scotland / Nicola Sturgeon thread as recommended by the mods, as I suspect that I have some relevant replies 🙂

    #75666 Reply
    Clark

    The governments and corporations have set up mass surveillance systems, spying upon the general public, and delivering the data collected into private and government hands.

    That entire system should be turned to point in precisely the opposite direction. It should gather data from within governments and corporations, and make it public.

    #75694 Reply
    michael norton

    Jacinda Kate Laurell Ardern has locked down New Zealand so firmly that she is shutting down commerce in those islands.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58196473
    With the massively quick covid vbaccination effort in the U.K.
    The U.K. is again open for business.
    Lord of the Rings, will not now be filmed in New Zealand but in the United Kingdom.

    #75755 Reply
    Clark

    “… Ardern has locked down New Zealand so firmly…”

    New Zealand isn’t locked down at all. The whole country is covid-free, except the border quarantine centres. No restrictions, no masks, no covid.

    So I doubt that Amazon Studios’ decision is about restrictions, and the article you linked doesn’t even mention covid:

    – “[Amazon Studios] said the shift in locations was part of a plan to expand its production space and consolidate its footprint in the UK.

    #75764 Reply
    michael norton

    It is about covid restrictions, if they ship their people in those people have to be shut up, difficult filming if you are shut up?

    #75777 Reply
    Clark

    Quarantine is two weeks I think, and conditions are good, like a hotel. No problem for crew and major characters but a nuisance for bit part actors.

    But I still doubt that it’s about covid because Amazon Studios is finishing the series currently being made there. Beyond that, in the near future, either vaccination will end the problem and New Zealand will discontinue quarantine requirements, or a new variant will undermine vaccination and New Zealand will continue being a haven from covid, somewhere most would be glad to have a valid reason to spend some time.

    #75781 Reply
    michael norton

    There is massive new film studios being constructed in Wokingham. Bray Studios are also being expanded. The U.K. seems to be the to go to place for new films. I think Game of Thrones is filmed in Ulster.

    New Zealand and Australia seem to be vaccinating very few. They are both in lock-down mode, in actuality but also mentally. Australia used to be known as the Golden Land, 29 years without recession, not these days. They are going backwards and people are angry.

    #75788 Reply
    michael norton

    The trouble is,
    one day New Zealand might want to get out of its bubble and re-join the real world, like play rugby again, have overseas visitors
    but as they have ordered so few vaccines, they do not make their own, until N.Z. vaccinate most people, the pandemic will flare-off the moment they stop being in a bubble.

    #75795 Reply
    Clark

    Two weeks quarantine on entry to the country, known in advance and with no restrictions thereafter as in New Zealand, must surely be better conditions for television production than unpredictable three to four month lockdowns on top of suddenly changing local restrictions, as has been the case in the UK.

    I suppose Amazon Studios may have guestimated that new variants won’t get past the vaccines and thereby lead to a return of either restrictions or unworkable conditions in the UK. But that would be a gamble.

    I think it is also the case that those countries that have suppressed transmission most effectively are also the countries whose economies have been least damaged by the pandemic. The supposed “balance between public health versus the economy” has always been misleading, a red herring; the people are the economy.

    #75810 Reply
    michael norton

    J.R.M. wants all Parliamentarians to return in real not virtual, when Parliament kicks off after their Summer Holidays. The main reasoning is that the hub of the British Economy is London.
    They want the banksters to return to the city, they want the tourists to return to the theatres. They want investors to return to the city. In short they want the economy to re-start to pay for all the covid crap.

    #75811 Reply
    michael norton

    Australia goes to war on covid
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-58170440

    The leader of New South Wales has warned this is “the worst situation Australia’s been in” since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic.

    State Premier Gladys Berejiklian said rules would be tightened in Sydney, the state capital, which is in LOCKDOWN

    Covid fines will also go up to AU$5,000 or £2,656 from AU$1,000.

    “This is literally a WAR, and we’ve known we’ve been in a war for some time, but never to this extent,” Ms Berejiklian told reporters.

    Australia vaccine roll-otr, massive failure.

    Some on here have been blowing trumpets for Australia and New Zealand.
    Troops on the streets of Sydney, the people are getting fucking tired of all the restrictions, clamping down harder and harder and harder on people and the economy is going to back-fire, soon.
    In normal times Australians do not like being told what to do, they have been used to doing what they want, when they want.

    #75834 Reply
    michael norton

    Southern Ireland is starting to vaccinate youngsters down to the age of twelve. Parents and grandparents have been asked to convince the children that this is good for them. In Northern Ireland youngsters down to the age of sixteen are now being asked to have the vaccine. Some Northern Irish politicians think 12 years should also get the jab. It seems like quite a few countries are now giving the jab to older children.

    It seems many countries are looking at the U.K. as a covid experiment. An opened up society, now with almost no rules, with only a partially vaccinated population?

    #75842 Reply
    ET

    “Some on here have been blowing trumpets for Australia and New Zealand.”

    And still do. For context Michael, Australia cases per million 1534, New Zealand 585. UK cases per million 91,783, Ireland 64,955, Spain 100,343, USA 112,463. Australia is still amongst the lowest in the world and they are reacting quickly in NSW with a 7 day lock down state wide. It’s the most populous state but not the only state. The other six states are not in lockdown yet.

    Also, Michael, you should appreciate the geography of Australia with 25 million people spread across the very large continent. A lot of their health care infrastructure is rural and/or remote. Whilst most people live on the east coast there are still remote populated areas. A doc might be assessing a patient who is 600km away, pop in so I can take a look at you doesn’t cut it. There are a lot of small towns where the local small hospital is run by a single doc or even smaller towns without any hospital and one GP and a long way from a hospital. They use medivac services a lot, small aircraft, helicopters and their ambulance system to transfer people from rural/remote areas to the bigger urban centres where there might be ICU facilities. Sometimes it can take hours for those services to get to you.

    “Australia vaccine roll-out, massive failure.”

    As I pointed out in a previous post there wasn’t vaccine availability, they couldn’t get their hands on a supply to buy. A position most of the world is in thanks to hoarding on behalf of the EU, UK, USA and India and not just vaccines but their precursors too. And patents. So who failed who? Australia has a very good health system and their docs are very well trained, and broadly trained across a number of disciplines as junior docs.

    Who is going to be in a better position if the vaccines fail to contain the virus? Numbers are rising across most of the “western” world despite vaccinations.

    #75887 Reply
    michael norton

    In New Zealand only 20% of Adults have so far been double jabbed.
    N.Z. is now in Lock-Down

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