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Those who promote false claims frequently retreat to untestable conditions, but failing that, complex matters can provide many details from which it is possible to cherry-pick.
This thread was originally about the UAF Report into the collapse of WTC7. I made some rigorous claims in that most rigorous field of hard science, classical physics, namely that g and free-fall are not even conceptually similar, that acceleration at g does not imply free-fall, that the rooflines of buildings that are demolished fall at less than g anyway, and that collapsing building debris cannot be in free-fall.
All argument for demolition of the Twin Towers, not WTC7, rapidly evaporated, and the thread changed tack, to the messiest and most complex fields of science, those that deal with health, and cherry-picking ensued. Que bono?
Well Corbyn was denounced over supporting an east end mural, showing bankers playing monopoly on the backs of the poor! The mural was deemed “anti-Semitic”, do you agree?
You exchange sophistry for science. You assert, because something fell a few seconds outside free fall, it isn’t free fall and of course that would be technically correct. But even a few seconds outside free fall would be evidence of assisted demolition. But you with usual audacity focus on saying “outside free fall” as if that’s evidence of unassisted demolition!
I am sorry Node. Not trying to be awkward but your referencing means I have to do a lot of homework to get to what you are trying to prove. Your reference April 13, 2020 at 11:29 #51685
to your post on the Italian Government is a link to an OffGuardian article and not to what was originally said by the Italian institute of Health. I have on the contrary not only sent you a reference to a primary source but have taken relevant extracts to show how the death of over 16000 cases were accounted for with a lot of clinical details. I think you would agree that such a clinical analysis is worth more than an article from a website written by a non-expert?
“I provided links to Office of National Statistics and NHS documents which prove that the UK is using the same flawed reporting system as Italy.” I see no such reference from you pointing to what you claim. However I think I know what you say as this comes from the chart of the weekly mortality figures:“Because of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, our regular weekly deaths release now provides a separate breakdown of the numbers of deaths involving COVID-19. That is, where COVID-19 or suspected COVID-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, including in combination with other health conditions. Previously, the number of deaths with an underlying cause of respiratory disease was published a week behind the current week. These will now be published for the current week and revised the following week. Alongside this, a new bulletin summarises the latest weekly information and will be updated each week during the pandemic. A link to the bulletin can be found in the notice box on the weekly deaths dataset page.”
So we will need to go back to the death certificate where this information arises. You point somewhere that Doctors have been advised as to how to fill death certificates with modifications to take account of Covid-19. There is no conspiracy there it is just a clarification. Death certificates may be issued on clinical grounds if other information is lacking. The fact that all those who are virus positive are all then grouped as deaths relating to Covid-19 may slightly overestimate the numbers but I cannot see how this can produce a figure of x 8.5 the actual numbers. Given that the majority of the patients admitted to hospital in this epidemic will be so admitted because they have symptoms relating to the virus then it is reasonable to take this approach. ONS also say that the figures would be revised when more information is available.
I see no smoking gun there given that at present detailed clinical studies in China and Italy have shown the extent of the problem.
As to guidance filling death certificates, here is a relevant extract“4. How to complete the cause of death section
• COVID-19 is an acceptable direct or underlying cause of death for the purposes of completing the Medical Certificate of Cause of Death • COVID-19 is not a reason on its own to refer a death to a coroner under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. • That COVID-19 is a notifiable disease under the Health Protection (Notification) Regulations 2010 does not mean referral to a coroner is required by virtue of its notifiable status.
“Medical practitioners are required to certify causes of death “to the best of their knowledge and belief”. Without diagnostic proof, if appropriate and to avoid delay, medical practitioners can circle ‘2’ in the MCCD (“information from post-mortem may be available later”) or tick Box B on the reverse of the MCCD for ante-mortem investigations. For example, if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give ‘COVID-19’ as the cause of death, tick Box B and then share the test result when it becomes available. In the circumstances of there being no swab, it is satisfactory to apply clinical judgement. ”
But that is what death certificates always do, they are based on clinical judgement.
I still have not seen any solid analysis to substantiate your claim that the reported death from Covid-19 is 8.5 times that of the true figure
You are quite right Clark. I shall stop commenting on the covid-19 on this thread. Those who wish can join in at
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/corona-virus-governemnt-takes-the-st-augustine-approach/
But as you say, cherry picking is the order of the day. Finding an obscure US governor disagreeing with science is easy. Selective statistics and here say is another.Sometime it is worth looking at the mirror.
Sophistry: the use of clever but false arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.@ SA
Trump has declared for “America First”, this patriotic idea will inevitably worry Alchemists as a patriot worried about sovereignty will inevitably question who controls the money, because who controls the money will control the country.
Many patriots may not have even considered the idea, and alas many conservatives consider it communist to do so, but its a question a patriot will be naturally inclined to consider, a heresy waiting to happen.
Also as an “America First” Zionist he supports a Middle-East peace settlement rather than perpetual war on behalf of Israel. Hence why when he refused to bomb Syria and kill a lot of civilians, the Trotskyite neo-cons declared him ‘unsafe’ on Israel.
In America you can’t get elected without rich backers or being rich yourself. Trump’s wealth is another reason he’s deemed a threat (waiting to happen) as whether you like him or not, he’s his own man.
Dave, yes, a smear campaign of false accusations of anti-Semitism was used against Jeremy Corbyn. It probably wasn’t very effective because in the 2017 General Election the Labour Party gained 30 seats and the Conservatives lost their majority.
Your 16:36 comment demonstrates that you don’t understand the arguments I have presented; you are still confusing g with free-fall, and have failed to grasp that buildings being demolished aren’t in free-fall and fall slower than g.
What I did with the Twin Tower collapses was to calculate the lower bound of the collapse time, taking momentum transfer between floor assemblies into consideration but not mechanical resistance, because the latter was beyond my expertise. The collapse times were well above this limit.
To check mechanical resistance, I worked backwards from estimated collapse times measured from video. By subtracting my result above I calculated free energy not expended in collapse itself, and found it to be ample to overcome mechanical resistance – it was equivalent to the energy of more than enough explosives to detach all floor assemblies from the vertical frame.
Thus the collapse times provide no reason to suspect explosives; the Twin Towers would have collapsed that fast without them.
A complete building collapse almost has to accelerate. If it were to decelerate it would stop, incomplete. There is a critical case of roughly uniform velocity, but it is unlikely, like a falling pencil landing upright, balanced on its end.
I doubt you understand the arguments above, though I doubt that will stop you either. But I did these calculations with simple O Level physics, so Twin Tower demolition theories just look silly to mechanical engineers, just as Node’s “just like flu” arguments must look silly to epidemiologists.
And so despite the two towers (allegedly) being hit by two planes in different places, they both disintegrated in the same way?
Yep. Well almost; there were differences, consistent with the different impact points. The towers were of almost identical structure (the clue’s in the name), and the aircraft were pretty similar too.
Anyway, today’s the day, fifty years ago, that Apollo 13 suffered an internal explosion, so I’m off over here:
Me, 18:46 – “a smear campaign of false accusations of anti-Semitism was used against Jeremy Corbyn. It probably wasn’t very effective…”
That said, it may have been effective enough. The margin was under 3%.
On this graph you can compare the effect upon total mortality in New York, of 9/11 versus CoVID-19, up to just April 4:
Miscounting doesn’t increase totals!!!
Sorry, I somehow got that wrong. Second attempt:
<img src=”https://squonk.tk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/nycd.jpg” alt=””
[ Mod: Fixed above. The chevrons are rendered as HTMl character codes in all replies; but the mods can replace them in a direct editing window. ]Here’s another for Crema, Italy:
So, Node, Dave; the total mortality has massively increased, in New York and in Crema. Does this completely refute your “numbers inflated by counting other causes as CoVID-19” argument, or have I missed something?
MODS, thanks for embedding the graphs.
The picture that comes to my mind is of the Pied Piper tootling on his flute as he leads a column of dancing rats to their destruction. One smug rat turns to another and says :
“Hey SA, we need to silence those conspiracy theorists. Their crazy complaints make it difficult to enjoy the wonderful pipe music.
“Yes, Clark, what those idiots don’t understand is that we need to be isolated for our own protection. We’ll be allowed back into Hamelin as soon as the emergency is over.”Node, I asked a question; do you have an answer based on evidence and reasoning? I could equally suggest that you’re drunk on your own power to cause death by encouraging people to spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus. You’re currently acting even more irresponsibly than your hated MSM.
Here’s another. The rise looks less steep because there are only weeks on the graph rather than decades; note that total deaths rises more than covid-19 deaths, suggesting undercounting:
And Node, when I was out on the streets with XR courting arrest by performing civil disobedience, you took the piss. Can you assure me you’ll be joining me, if the need arises to win back our civil liberties? Or will you continue to display your signature attitude of superiority from the safety and anonymity of your Internet connection?
The figures would indicate the lockdown’s not working!
Node
Do you self identify? No body wants to silence anybody but I have not had an answer to my x 8.5 times question.
Node if you spend half your time you spend on covid-19 denial on actually critically analysing the incompetence of this government in dealing with the crisis, you would be doing everyone a lot of good, including yourself. We are not the enemy, but CTs always divide efforts against the common enemy.“And Node, when I was out on the streets with XR courting arrest by performing civil disobedience, you took the piss. Can you assure me you’ll be joining me, if the need arises to win back our civil liberties?”
What? Would I further the ambitions of a bunch of shady billionaires by joining a bunch of dupes dancing round a pink inflatable octopus to achieve nothing worthwhile? No, thank you.
You understand nothing, Clark, about the world or me. I spent last night 3D-printing and assembling face shields because people like you have so terrified my neighbours that they’re afraid to visit and care for old folk who need it. I do 2-3 hours unpaid work every day, year in year out, for the community I live in. I can see the fruits of my labour, my friends and neighbours benefit, I earn respect, and hopefully the strong community I’m helping to build will support me when I need it. Real, everyday practical help.
You go to an XR meeting once a month, memorise the latest buzzwords, and think that makes you morally superior. It doesn’t. It makes you a smug supercillious twat.
—
[ Mod: A reminder from the moderation rules for commenters:Fair Play
Play the ball, not the man. Address arguments, not people. Do not impugn the motives of others, including me. No taunting.Node, it is clear that you are resorting to smears by analogy and insulting people, contrary to blog etiquette – as well as evading counterevidence. Your replies will now require approval by moderators.
Regards. ]
SA, I’ve learned it is a waste of time discussing anything with anyone who thinks it is a valid argument to just say something is a conspiracy theory. You seemed to acknowledge that point so I engaged with you. Two or three comments later, you were dismissing my points as conspiracy theories. So, no, I’ll save my energy for someone who debates properly.
SA and Clark.
I’ve said from the start of this charade that we would only really know how dangerous the coronavirus is/was in a year’s time when we can compare 2020’s mortality figures with previous years. I’ve predicted that when the figures are in, 2020 will seem nothing special, that if we hadn’t been tracking coronavirus its consequences would go unnoticed among seasonal flu morbidity.
I’ve got the courage of my convictions to make a verifiable prediction. Have you? How many excess deaths? 10K? 100K? You still predicting 2 million, Clark?
Dave, the UK restrictions are badly targeted. Wuhan had a lockdown, the UK has not. Widespread testing and contact tracing are needed, in addition to better, not stricter restrictions and self-disciplined social distancing. Stupid fucking government. But the rise is still slower than it would be without restrictions at all.
The waste of time really Node, is making allegations that are either not substantiated or are referenced from non-experts. I answered you allegation that some Italians said that only 12% of registered Covid-19 deaths in Italy were due to SARS Cov2 and referred to an article written by a layman as far as I can ascertain from a non scientific website. In return I posted actual figures from the Italian centre which collates data on Covid-19 showing exactly the clinical descriptions, but you chose to ignore that. You also quoted, based on no evidence that the UK figures were 8.5 times the actual figures from death from Covid-19 and failed to provide evidence for this statement. When Clark produced the recent weekly mortality data showing a rapid rise of mortality, your sneering answer was to suggest that we are following a pied piper. No science there.
I am sorry you feel very hurt that I called you a CT but I did explain what this means for me, my definition is more lax than Clarks and we certainly are not working in tandem to discredit you. I think it is your way of dealing with this that is discrediting your argument. It is a pity because as I said we should all unite against the incompetence of the government in dealing with this very real crisis, but by pretending it is a made up crisis we cut them a lot of slack.Node, good on you for your community work, but if I know nothing about you it is because you have been fervent about hiding it, until this morsel.
As for knowing about the world, I hate to see people trashing the scientific community, dismissing them as, sorry to say, controlled by some secret conspiracy, which seems to be your one theory of virtually everything and everyone. Systematic scepticism, rationality and the scientific method are the only valid ways of learning about the world; an organised disbelief system is the only answer to the multitude of self-supporting belief systems that have warped human behaviour since prehistory.
TRUTH, justice, peace.
That’s what I’m dedicated to, as fervently as you seem dedicated to conspiracy theory. You could help my state of mind, my confidence, and thus help me be more productive by cooperating with me rather than… well, what it is that you do do, which adds to my depression.
It can’t be wrong for the “MSM” to spread disinformation, but right when you do it.
