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April 15, 2020 at 15:37 #51848Dave
Yes people with mental health problems are also suffering due to the lockdown and MSM fear-mongering.April 15, 2020 at 18:17 #51857Clark
Dave, do you know anyone who has had covid-19? I know someone about thirty, just on critical day 10 or 11. We haven’t spoken yet, so I can’t tell you how bad it was, but I hear that it was bad. Another friend of a friend, also about 30, survived but “was left as weak as a kitten”; still recovering.April 15, 2020 at 18:18 #51858Clark
Just accepting the word of Q-Anon or wherever you get this stuff doesn’t count as dedication to reality.April 15, 2020 at 19:13 #51859SA
Propaganda can sometimes take the form of an elaborate CT when performed by a state. The whole Skripal affair was just such an occurrence. The state constructed a huge CT with which the media complied and it became part of the folklore and recorded as a real episode in history. Another similar conflation of propaganda and CT was the Russian interference with first the US election, and then every other election that you would like to name.
When states and governments construct CTs they do so with the help of massive propaganda. But when individuals and organisations do it becomes a CT. Reminiscent of the saying that terrorism is the poor man’s war and war is the rich man’s terror on the poor.April 15, 2020 at 19:23 #51860Dave
“Just accepting the word of Q-Anon or wherever you get this stuff doesn’t count as dedication to reality”.
Then you’ll be delighted to hear that everything I’ve written has appeared in the MSM, albeit hidden, compared to the Pan-Panic propaganda.April 15, 2020 at 19:30 #51862Dave
And today its reported there has been a big spike in non-corona deaths, due to fears of going to hospital and getting the virus and/or not wanting to cause a fuss during a crisis aka deaths due to the lockdown and fear-mongering.April 15, 2020 at 19:30 #51863Clark
SA, I almost agree. Your examples are borderline, they don’t require a conspiracy that expands without limit, but they are well beyond the typical propaganda by spin and omission. The global warming denial that has gradually petered out of the corporate media over the last decade or so did require unlimited conspiracy.
I think that reliable, verifiable, correctable mass news media would provide a major remedy to the proliferation of conspiracy theory on social media. People aren’t sheeple; they know they are being misled, but structural propaganda is complicated to pull apart and correct, so conspiracy theory arises in reaction.April 15, 2020 at 19:39 #51864Clark
“Big”, Dave? You need to quantify so a comparison can be made.
I take it you know no one who’s had covid-19.April 15, 2020 at 20:03 #51865Dave
Over 600,000 die every year from various causes, many thousands from infections caught in hospital. Lets not forget them and the many victims of the lockdown! Please to hear your friends recovered.April 15, 2020 at 20:18 #51866Clark
Dave, it is my opinion that you seriously underrate the seriousness of covid-19 because you have no idea about maths or science, you are dismissive of them, as has been shown regarding climate science, the collapses on 9/11 and now a global pandemic. It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect. You have massive confidence in your own pronouncements, because you don’t even know enough to know that you’re ignorant.
Ignorance can be corrected, but arrogance is a choice.April 15, 2020 at 20:29 #51867Clark
And Dave, all the arguments you make are ultimately political. If the ATLAS system spotted an oncoming asteroid, I think you’d likely say it was a hoax to discredit Trump. Your argument up-thread is highly parochial, seeing some hidden hand against merely Trump and Johnson in a global pandemic that’s affecting every country on Earth and originated in China.
Actually, politics is not the cause of everything, nor the only means by which things can be explained.
Do you know any science or maths at all?April 15, 2020 at 20:34 #51868Clark
You apparently have no understanding of exponential functions or you’d understand why the technical community is treating covid-19 as such a threat.
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024…
10 doublings get us to over a thousand…
2,048, 4,096, 8,192, 16,384, 32,768, 65,536, 131,072, 262,144, 524,288, 1,048,576…
20 doublings get us to over a million…
2,097,152, 4,194,304, 8,388,608, 16,777,216, 33,554,432, 67,108,864…
26 doublings get us to the population of the UK…
134,217,728, 268,435,456, 536,870,912, 1,073,741,824, 2,147,483,648, 4,294,967,296, 8,589,934,592.
33 doublings exceed the population of the world.April 15, 2020 at 20:49 #51870SA
Clark @ April 15, 2020 at 20:29
“Do you know any science of maths at all?”
I also suspected as much of Dave, It is also interesting how he defends Trump and even thinks that Trump is the victim of antisemitism allegations. Maybe Dave is a bot?April 15, 2020 at 21:05 #51872Clark
“Hidden in the mainstream media”.
This must be some new usage of the word ‘hidden’ that I haven’t encountered before…April 15, 2020 at 21:30 #51874Dave
I’m modest actually, but yes I’m not intimidated by the “best expert advice money can buy”, because who’s paying Fauci and Imperial College London for their crackpot lockdown policy? I know you know, the compulsory vaccine lobby, who offer it, at fancy prices, as the magic key to unlock the lockdown, which is wrecking the economy and costing lives and livelihoods.
Not all the world is in lockdown or the same degree of lockdown and why they are all doing it is a good question, but there are always a range of interests supporting the same policy for different reasons.
Some want it to suppress political protests (France, India, China) and some for additional funding from world organisations, and some like New Zealand (at least their Prime Minster) do so as a loyal servants of the 1%. I mean they went into lockdown after reporting “1” death!
The lockdown doesn’t make sense from a medical point of view, and unless you’re saying all the politicians are just following expert medical advice, we have to ask who’s paying the experts, because wrecking the economy makes things worse, and before lockdown the mortality rate was less than the preceding 5 years.
And Trump is being attacked by the Fake Media for wanting to lift the lockdown and for all the problems due to the lockdown. Its impeachment 2 or 3 if you include “Russia-Gate”.April 15, 2020 at 21:33 #51875Dave
“Hidden in the mainstream media”.
“This must be some new usage of the word ‘hidden’ that I haven’t encountered before…”
You need to get out more. The headline on the front page is belied by a small item on P94.April 15, 2020 at 22:07 #51878Clark
Dave, it is a sad and damning testament to the state of the corporate media that so many people end up with opinions about science similar to your own, for that is where they originate; a million stupid, contradictory articles that begin “scientists say…”, and then tell us nothing about the evidence, data or theory. One scientist is said to “reveal” something, and then another “challenges” it, a bit like Jedi Knights. Science is presented as didactic statements from authority figures in white coats, many of whom are in fact quacks and have no scientific standing whatsoever, because most journalists wouldn’t know how to check.
But some people can do science for themselves, or at least assess whether the arguments are valid. Just because you don’t understand a thing doesn’t mean that no one else does. You have consistently presented me with arguments that you think are scientific, but I can see that they are crafted to deceive. The “CO2 is a tiny proportion of the atmosphere” is one such argument; it has superficial plausibility, nothing more. I tried to show you that it is misleading by showing you that far less colourant makes methylated spirits purple; I tried to put that tool of judgement in your own hands, to empower you, but to no avail. Likewise the collapses of the Twin Towers; I presented my methods and working entirely in public on the 9/11 thread, but again, you were unable or unwilling to make use of my offering, preferring evidence-free assertions that the collapses were impossible without explosives.
There is more to assessing a piece of science than determining who paid for it; such hidden motive arguments are mere conspiracy theory, that’s what the term means. And there is far more to the understanding of SARS-CoV-2 and CoVID-19 than the work of Fauci and ICL.
You can learn how to assess scientific claims by reading Bad Science by Ben Goldacre.April 15, 2020 at 22:20 #51880Clark
Here Dave, look at the first three graphs on the following page to see how the Trump administration is doing for the people they supposedly serve, in comparison with other governments:April 15, 2020 at 22:22 #51881Dave
Black is white. Bless you! Stay in doors and “turn those lights out”!April 15, 2020 at 22:34 #51882Clark
Those of us who know a little science saw that coming for the US. I predicted that the US would overtake country after country to rise to the top of the list of countries most affected.
Dave, I estimate that the world is only about one fiftieth into this pandemic so far. The US, moving so much faster, is about one twelfth into its disaster, and the deaths lag the cases by about a fortnight.
We’re not only not out of the woods; we have barely entered them. Don’t treat dynamic issues as static; the averages you quote will look very different in a couple of months.April 15, 2020 at 22:55 #51884Clark
The boat is adrift without power in remote ocean, several days sailing from the nearest fresh water. As the officers, engineers, mechanics and navigator do incomprehensible, technical things on the bridge and in the engine room, a talkative passenger holds forth telling the others: There is no problem with the boat, we are not really mid ocean, it is all an illusion, these technical people are fooling you because they have been paid to discredit the owner of the boat. Ignore their advice, they are deliberately making things worse. It’s always the same with these boffins and egg-heads, they know nothing really and they only say what they have been paid to… I know far more than them.April 15, 2020 at 23:15 #51885Clark
Dave, please don’t think I’m complacent. This is a terrible time for covid-19 to have happened. The people desperately need to rise up and take the power unto themselves, because the world over, political systems are dysfunctional with corruption.
But it would be wrong to congregate right now. In October I was in London, doing my bit towards civil disobedience. Through to February I was advocating and publicising. I am impatient, as are so many I work with, but nature is nature and has to be respected; it is force majeure.
We must simply prepare and be ready.April 16, 2020 at 11:45 #51901Clark
Dave, I had a mathematical discussion with a friend yesterday, and I think that there may now be a case for relaxation of some government restrictions, or public transgression of some restrictions, in some places, and/or among some communities.
However, I have major qualifications of this. Any such decision must be social and collective, because individuals’ actions will affect others’ exposure. It must be responsible; people’s deaths should be voluntary, and free from pain and distress to the greatest extent possible. And decision must not be rushed, because understanding of immune system response to SARS-CoV-2 is as yet minimal.
– – – – – – – – –
What evidence do you have that the “compulsory vaccine lobby” is influencing public information? As I understand it, there is no effective vaccine to lobby for, and since SARS-CoV-2 is a coronavirus and no effective vaccines have ever been developed against most other coronaviruses (eg. there are no vaccines for the common cold), there may be no such vaccine in the foreseeable future.
Why do you regard as “Stalinist” my suggestion of encouraging voluntary reorganisation of households and communities into groups of similar vulnerability and risk of exposure? At present, most people’s choices of who they associate with are dictated by their economic circumstances; those rich enough can afford sufficient accommodation to associate as they choose, but the majority have to be either at their only home, or at work, and have little choice about either. To me, voluntary reorganisation seems more liberal than economic coercion.April 16, 2020 at 13:32 #51904Node
In 2002 I was banned from Audiogalaxy/General Chat forum for claiming 9/11 was an inside job. For years previously, any topic was fair game, I’d never seen anyone banned, or even censured, except for antisemitism. But the atmosphere changed after 9/11. I was accused of “insulting the victims” and “supporting terrorists.” I was “cherry picking evidence” because I was a “conspiracy theorist.”
I was mystified by the vehemence I encountered. Even then there was strong evidence that something fishy was going on – insider trading; at least half the accused hijackers were still alive; many credible eye witnesses to explosions; the complete failure of air defenses; and much more. Yet I (and others) were vilified for pointing out these obvious discrepancies. My posts would be delayed in moderation for hours then released far back in the timeline where they wouldn’t be seen. Eventually my account was rescinded (I’d had a 3-figure membership number when by then there were over a million subscribers).
There’s been lots of water under the bridge since then and now I understand that anger. 9/11 remains a keystone event to understanding the modern world and I’ve seen the effect its revelations have on people. To this day, many don’t know that 3 towers fell. When they learn, everybody is at first incredulous that they could be unaware of such a significant fact, then hungry to discover more. For some it is a gateway to realisation that the world is a very different place to the one portrayed on their TVs. For others, it is too much. They can’t assimilate the implications – total MSM control, rulers who kill 1000s of innocents for strategic gain, their country is not the good guys, etc. They go a certain way down the road then recoil at the horror of it. They find a cosy BBC debunking programme to cling to, then erect mental barriers to ensure they are never led down that road again. Their primary defense mechanism is to howl down anybody who reminds them of that dark place they dare not revisit. They discredit the messenger to justify ignoring the message.
19 years later, the official 9/11 account has been demolished by a meticulous 4 year investigation by the Department of Civil Engineering at the University of Alaska Fairbanks which concludes that “fires in WTC 7 could not have caused the observed collapse.” So now it’s not “conspiracy theorists” claiming it was an inside job, its Science, complete with open source data and a challenge to officialdom to prove the report wrong.
What are the lessons?
(1) The MSM absolutely cannot be trusted – that it can and does maintain an illusion, day in day out year in year out.
(2) It does not need 1000s of people to be in on the conspiracy, just an elite setting the scene while those below realise (to a greater or lesser extent) what side their bread’s buttered on, not to rock the boat, and a sly few noticing: hey, promoting the elite’s agenda actually leads to career advancement.
(3) There really are powerful people who engineer history-changing events to facilitate increases in their global power.
Still, we’ve learned our lessons. They couldn’t fool us again …. could they?April 16, 2020 at 15:57 #51912Dave
Very good post Node, and its good to put the record straight, but its clear Truth soon takes second place to a loyalty test, who’s side are you on? You forgive, downplay or deny the crimes of ‘your own side’ because you put your own security first and this applies to many issues big and small.
You say you could feel the hostility when raising pertinent questions on that old blog, which previously had only banned “anti-Semitic” posts. And there you have it, the hostility to 9/11 truth was because of Israel’s involvement in the terrorist attack, which any enquiry would soon reveal, making Truth an “anti-Semitic” heresy.
Which is why Clark hangs on to his “spontaneous combustion and sympathy collapse theory”, because in his case the “truth wont set him free”!April 16, 2020 at 16:05 #51913Clark
Node, thanks for that personal revelation; it gives me some insight into your anger. I lost a five digit Maplin customer number which they refused to restore, and I was actually gleeful the day they went bust.
However, your second paragraph is also pretty much a list of how you have treated me, for, apparently, working out the natural collapse times of the Twin Towers and thereby revealing pre-rigged demolition as pointless, and gathering evidence that WTC7 was possibly rigged for emergency demolition on the afternoon of 9/11.
There certainly is a pro-war lobby, partly covert; Craig reveals more of them and their activities in post after post. And they continue to fool the people, and crucially, the UN Security Council.
By contrast with Craig’s ongoing and diligent work, despite the high hopes of the 9/11 “Truth” movement, Twin Tower demolition theory has revealed precisely nothing in nineteen years.
I understand the desire for a quick fix; one world-shaking, indisputable fact that changes everything and wakes people up to the distortions of the pro-war corporate media. Unfortunately, or rather thankfully, the reality we live in is more subtle and complicated than that. We live in a diverse and interesting universe that is hard to fathom.
I ask you to consider the possibility that Twin Tower demolition theory is itself part of the psi-op. Please re-read my earlier link which I shall post again here, not as an insult but as a humorous anecdote carrying a vital message:
– “One reason our fine fraternity has controlled the world for hundreds of years is that we’ve managed to make “conspiracy theories” look stupid. You know how often you’ve ever heard someone suggest that possibility? None. You know why? Because it would be a conspiracy theory.”
The 9/11 Truth Movement loses credibility with the vast majority of the technical community by insisting upon Twin Tower demolition theory. I know why, because I did the maths. You watched me develop that theory piecemeal, attracting ridicule and insult from a dozen commenters the whole time. It is much clearer in my mind now, so if you’d like to go through it and check it with me, I will do that with you. I shall repost my list of evidence for emergency demolition of WTC7 in my subsequent comment; I can find the original sources for each point but some may take me some time and effort.April 16, 2020 at 16:10 #51914Clark
My evidence for emergency demolition is mostly human rather than physical:
* Silverstein’s “pull it” interview,
* A news story of Silverstein desperately making ‘phone calls to arrange a demolition,
* Firefighters on video moving people away from WTC7 saying it’s about to “blow up”,
* Multiple firefighters saying that WTC7 would either fall down, or would be taken down,
* News crews and spectators seem to have been told to watch WTC7 because it would collapse,
* John Kerry said he thought so.
One non-human point:
* The necessity of removing this unstable burning building to prevent proliferation of destruction and fire; WTC7 couldn’t be permitted to topple randomly because it had other tall buildings in all directions but south, which was a rescue and recovery zone.
My precedent for emergency demolition is military demolition, performed in hours, behind enemy lines. Can it be done fast? Listen to Danny Jowenko (link), deceased Dutch demolition designer. He says that each demolition charge can be placed in minutes, and that the weeks or months of preparation are to strip the building of all hazardous materials including asbestos, arrange inspections so as to obtain a certificate, and then obtain a demolition license from the local authority.
I’d have thought New York would have been an ideal place to assemble a suitable demolition team; there’s a lot of crossover between demolition teams and military explosive handlers, and between firefighters and military lower ranks. There’s a huge naval base, and a massive population. There seem to be several demolition companies in New York.April 16, 2020 at 16:21 #51915SA
Nobody has actually denied that 911 happened and with all the deficiencies of air defence and so on. But what we have been arguing here is that Covid-19 is a serious disease that needs to be taken seriously. I get the impression that some people deny that this is a serious virus on the basis of some rather shaky information gleaned from various non-scientific, as well as some scientific sources, mostly theoreticians who are not at the coal face. The way the epidemic evolved is not in any way similar to 911 or liable to the same manipulation and selective data release by one government. The sources of the data are multiple and involve countries of different political hues as well as many official, international and national organisations, research groups and clinicians. The message coming out of these sources quite clearly point out as to why this virus is different from Influenza viruses that cause the annual flu. There are some similar features and the major danger is to the elderly and those with co-morbidities, but the spectrum stretches to greater severity and even deaths amongst younger healthier individuals. Because we have no effective treatment (you can use Tamiflu for influenza with some success in severe cases) and because we understand much less about the immunity to the virus, and because of its high rate of transmission, a factor estimated as 1:2.4 (that is one infected person will infect 2.4 individuals on average) which leads to rapid exponential rise, this virus is particularly dangerous. It does not matter how many get mild infections because firstly many get severe disease, and secondly we cannot say who gets the severe disease.
I am sorry I have not linked to any references because they are many but if you want to debate any particular point you do not like then please ask and I will supply a link.
So the next question is how this is to be dealt with and that may be the subject of discussion of how different governments have taken this opportunity to do something or another to limit our freedom, but unless we agree on the first point, that it is a serious disease, then we cannot continue in a sensible way. I do not in any way underestimate your concern that the disease may be exaggerated and even our government and that of the US did that with disastrous results. Incidentally, I did go through this process with you before but we stumbled on some questions which you did not answer.April 16, 2020 at 16:23 #51916Clark
Dave, I don’t support Israel. I’m very much of the same opinion as Craig; Israel is an apartheid state inflicting slavery upon Palestinians, and indescribable horror upon Gaza. A single secular state in which all are equal is my preferred solution. Please stop claiming otherwise about me; I find it insulting.April 16, 2020 at 19:55 #51924Clark
Node, 13:32, 3rd para: – “To this day, many don’t know that 3 towers fell.”
Funnily enough, I do remember it being announced on TV news on the day. It wasn’t the Jane Standley piece. It was just a newscaster in a newsroom announcing it, beginning with “apparently…” and concluding with a facial expression like a shrug.
I know it’s true that many don’t know. I remember years later saying to one friend, “have you seen what Building 7 did?”, and she hadn’t known. She couldn’t believe it was natural when she saw the collapse.April 16, 2020 at 20:23 #51925Dave
“I know it’s true that many don’t know. I remember years later saying to one friend, “have you seen what Building 7 did?”, and she hadn’t known. She couldn’t believe it was natural when she saw the collapse”.
What was her view of the twin towers?April 16, 2020 at 20:59 #51928Clark
Oh, after that she explored some of the conspiracy sites and for a while she thought the towers must have been pre-rigged with explosives. She’s ambivalent now.
But why should that matter? People believe all sorts of odd things. One old chap I knew would tell me of his UFO sightings. He said one went past him so close he could see the rivets. Rivets? More likely a memory from his WWII childhood. The entire multi-billion industries of advertising and PR are dedicated to spreading false beliefs. One PR company landed a half-billion Pentagon contract to create ‘fake’ al Qaeda recruitment videos; I’m sure the idiots who set it up believed they were doing something helpful. Many people believe that mass surveillance keeps them safe from terrorists. People believe that antibiotics will treat a cold. Some think that an electrolytic foot bath will remove toxins via the soles of their feet.
This is why we need science.April 16, 2020 at 21:38 #51929Clark
Science is public; it’s not hidden. Well, there are problems with private research; Goldacre’s written a whole book about distortion of research in the pharmaceutical sector. But it’s individual results that get distorted, not the principles, the cutting edges of which are thrashed out in the scientific journals and discussion forums, which are public.
The collapses of the Twin Towers are among the most studied building failures in history, and the technical community essentially all agree; structural failures started progressive collapses. The American Society of Civil Engineers alone has 150,000 members. Even A&E9/11Truth has far more architects than engineers. Twin Tower demolition theory just looks dumb in the technical community.
Try starting at the link below and look around. The collapses were and are publicly discussed and debated by the global professional community, and virtually everyone agrees it was structural failure and progressive collapse, all discussed and agreed in public journals:
On the other hand, WTC7 was a mystery from the start and has been ever since. FEMA said so, NIST said they were “having trouble getting a handle on 7”. Two technical reports for a court case and appeal which contradicted each other, and now the UAF report. The bewilderment started almost immediately:April 16, 2020 at 23:05 #51931Dave
“Ambivalent”. Meaning, being unable to chose between two (usually opposing) courses of action/ideas!
So mixed feelings between destroyed with explosives and spontaneous combustion due to shock theory? I think she is just being polite!April 17, 2020 at 00:13 #51933Clark
Dave, you have to be blind to not see what happened to both of the Twin Towers. They each failed at their damaged zone, permitting the part above to fall onto the rest. Clear as day. WTC1 is the more conservative case, the part above was over ten storeys. What do you think’ll happen to a building if you drop another ten storey building on top of it?
Still, who cares what my friend thinks? She’s a photographer and boat trip host, not an engineer. If you want to fix your computer, do you ask your hairdresser? If you want fish and chips, do you call an electrician? I gave you a link to what engineers think; here’s another:
Oh but of course; engineers, virologists, epidemiologists, statisticians and according to you climate scientists all just lie; they all know what to say to advance their careers, so Node tells us. All except Hulsey’s team, obviously. Not that Node would ever cherry-pick, eh? No way he got chucked off a forum for that.
Funny, init? We’re surrounded by fantastic technology; we can search out anything on the Internet and it’s on our screens in a second. Buildings continue to stand, aircraft circle the globe, and satellites in orbit transmit television to our living rooms. Yet this is all put together by supine kowtowers who get their jobs by arse-licking, not competence, and that’s the economy you say matters more than lives.April 17, 2020 at 00:19 #51934Clark
Dave, you’ve said some stuff in the past, and there’s some above; do you think I’m Jewish?April 17, 2020 at 06:56 #51937SA
“Science is public”
Unfortunately some people have taken that to mean that you can now google anything and cherry pick your way through any ‘facts you chose. Because a lot of science depends on interpretation Which needs training but also integrity. It is this lack of integrity in some and biased interpretation that has divided people against science with the proliferation of anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers and so on, and natural medicine nutters.
Some also don’t seem to distinguish between pronouncements made by journalists, politicians and scientists.April 17, 2020 at 09:47 #51939Dave
“Dave, you’ve said some stuff in the past, and there’s some above; do you think I’m Jewish”?
Is Blair a Catholic?April 17, 2020 at 10:04 #51940Dave
“has divided people against science with the proliferation of anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers and so on, and natural medicine nutters”.
aka, has divided people between Ecologists and Climate Change Jehovah’s and drug pushers.April 17, 2020 at 10:56 #51942Node
Clark: Oh but of course; engineers, virologists, epidemiologists, statisticians and according to you climate scientists all just lie; they all know what to say to advance their careers, so Node tells us. All except Hulsey’s team, obviously. Not that Node would ever cherry-pick, eh? No way he got chucked off a forum for that.
Funny, init? We’re surrounded by fantastic technology; we can search out anything on the Internet and it’s on our screens in a second. Buildings continue to stand, aircraft circle the globe, and satellites in orbit transmit television to our living rooms. Yet this is all put together by supine kowtowers who get their jobs by arse-licking, not competence, and that’s the economy you say matters more than lives.
This is why it is impossible to have a fruitful discussion with you. I say something and you reply to something I never said.