New report released: WTC 7 was not destroyed by fire on 9/11/2001


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  • #51729 Reply
    Clark

    Me, 18:46 – “a smear campaign of false accusations of anti-Semitism was used against Jeremy Corbyn. It probably wasn’t very effective…”

    That said, it may have been effective enough. The margin was under 3%.

    #51734 Reply
    Clark

    On this graph you can compare the effect upon total mortality in New York, of 9/11 versus CoVID-19, up to just April 4:
    New York historical death totals

    Miscounting doesn’t increase totals!!!

    #51735 Reply
    Clark

    Sorry, I somehow got that wrong. Second attempt:

    <img src=”https://squonk.tk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/nycd.jpg&#8221; alt=””
    [ Mod: Fixed above. The chevrons are rendered as HTMl character codes in all replies; but the mods can replace them in a direct editing window. ]

    Here’s another for Crema, Italy:

    #51753 Reply
    Clark

    So, Node, Dave; the total mortality has massively increased, in New York and in Crema. Does this completely refute your “numbers inflated by counting other causes as CoVID-19” argument, or have I missed something?

    MODS, thanks for embedding the graphs.

    #51766 Reply
    Node

    The picture that comes to my mind is of the Pied Piper tootling on his flute as he leads a column of dancing rats to their destruction. One smug rat turns to another and says :
    “Hey SA, we need to silence those conspiracy theorists. Their crazy complaints make it difficult to enjoy the wonderful pipe music.
    “Yes, Clark, what those idiots don’t understand is that we need to be isolated for our own protection. We’ll be allowed back into Hamelin as soon as the emergency is over.”

    #51779 Reply
    Clark

    Node, I asked a question; do you have an answer based on evidence and reasoning? I could equally suggest that you’re drunk on your own power to cause death by encouraging people to spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus. You’re currently acting even more irresponsibly than your hated MSM.

    Here’s another. The rise looks less steep because there are only weeks on the graph rather than decades; note that total deaths rises more than covid-19 deaths, suggesting undercounting:

    UK death rates 2020 and 5 year average

    #51780 Reply
    Clark

    And Node, when I was out on the streets with XR courting arrest by performing civil disobedience, you took the piss. Can you assure me you’ll be joining me, if the need arises to win back our civil liberties? Or will you continue to display your signature attitude of superiority from the safety and anonymity of your Internet connection?

    #51783 Reply
    Dave

    The figures would indicate the lockdown’s not working!

    #51784 Reply
    SA

    Node
    Do you self identify? No body wants to silence anybody but I have not had an answer to my x 8.5 times question.
    Node if you spend half your time you spend on covid-19 denial on actually critically analysing the incompetence of this government in dealing with the crisis, you would be doing everyone a lot of good, including yourself. We are not the enemy, but CTs always divide efforts against the common enemy.

    #51786 Reply
    Node

    “And Node, when I was out on the streets with XR courting arrest by performing civil disobedience, you took the piss. Can you assure me you’ll be joining me, if the need arises to win back our civil liberties?”

    What? Would I further the ambitions of a bunch of shady billionaires by joining a bunch of dupes dancing round a pink inflatable octopus to achieve nothing worthwhile? No, thank you.

    You understand nothing, Clark, about the world or me. I spent last night 3D-printing and assembling face shields because people like you have so terrified my neighbours that they’re afraid to visit and care for old folk who need it. I do 2-3 hours unpaid work every day, year in year out, for the community I live in. I can see the fruits of my labour, my friends and neighbours benefit, I earn respect, and hopefully the strong community I’m helping to build will support me when I need it. Real, everyday practical help.

    You go to an XR meeting once a month, memorise the latest buzzwords, and think that makes you morally superior. It doesn’t. It makes you a smug supercillious twat.

    [ Mod: A reminder from the moderation rules for commenters:

    Fair Play
    Play the ball, not the man. Address arguments, not people. Do not impugn the motives of others, including me. No taunting.

    Node, it is clear that you are resorting to smears by analogy and insulting people, contrary to blog etiquette – as well as evading counterevidence. Your replies will now require approval by moderators.

    Regards. ]

    #51787 Reply
    Node

    SA, I’ve learned it is a waste of time discussing anything with anyone who thinks it is a valid argument to just say something is a conspiracy theory. You seemed to acknowledge that point so I engaged with you. Two or three comments later, you were dismissing my points as conspiracy theories. So, no, I’ll save my energy for someone who debates properly.

    #51788 Reply
    Node

    SA and Clark.

    I’ve said from the start of this charade that we would only really know how dangerous the coronavirus is/was in a year’s time when we can compare 2020’s mortality figures with previous years. I’ve predicted that when the figures are in, 2020 will seem nothing special, that if we hadn’t been tracking coronavirus its consequences would go unnoticed among seasonal flu morbidity.

    I’ve got the courage of my convictions to make a verifiable prediction. Have you? How many excess deaths? 10K? 100K? You still predicting 2 million, Clark?

    #51793 Reply
    Clark

    Dave, the UK restrictions are badly targeted. Wuhan had a lockdown, the UK has not. Widespread testing and contact tracing are needed, in addition to better, not stricter restrictions and self-disciplined social distancing. Stupid fucking government. But the rise is still slower than it would be without restrictions at all.

    #51796 Reply
    SA

    The waste of time really Node, is making allegations that are either not substantiated or are referenced from non-experts. I answered you allegation that some Italians said that only 12% of registered Covid-19 deaths in Italy were due to SARS Cov2 and referred to an article written by a layman as far as I can ascertain from a non scientific website. In return I posted actual figures from the Italian centre which collates data on Covid-19 showing exactly the clinical descriptions, but you chose to ignore that. You also quoted, based on no evidence that the UK figures were 8.5 times the actual figures from death from Covid-19 and failed to provide evidence for this statement. When Clark produced the recent weekly mortality data showing a rapid rise of mortality, your sneering answer was to suggest that we are following a pied piper. No science there.
    I am sorry you feel very hurt that I called you a CT but I did explain what this means for me, my definition is more lax than Clarks and we certainly are not working in tandem to discredit you. I think it is your way of dealing with this that is discrediting your argument. It is a pity because as I said we should all unite against the incompetence of the government in dealing with this very real crisis, but by pretending it is a made up crisis we cut them a lot of slack.

    #51797 Reply
    Clark

    Node, good on you for your community work, but if I know nothing about you it is because you have been fervent about hiding it, until this morsel.

    As for knowing about the world, I hate to see people trashing the scientific community, dismissing them as, sorry to say, controlled by some secret conspiracy, which seems to be your one theory of virtually everything and everyone. Systematic scepticism, rationality and the scientific method are the only valid ways of learning about the world; an organised disbelief system is the only answer to the multitude of self-supporting belief systems that have warped human behaviour since prehistory.

    TRUTH, justice, peace.

    That’s what I’m dedicated to, as fervently as you seem dedicated to conspiracy theory. You could help my state of mind, my confidence, and thus help me be more productive by cooperating with me rather than… well, what it is that you do do, which adds to my depression.

    It can’t be wrong for the “MSM” to spread disinformation, but right when you do it.

    #51798 Reply
    Clark

    “You could help my state of mind, my confidence, and thus help me…”

    You could be appreciative of the effort I made, independently checking the theoretical collapse times of the Twin Towers, and thus eliminating the blind alley of their demolition; it is only by elimination that we can home in on the truth. You could be appreciative of me forging out on my own with my emergency demolition of WTC7 theory. Instead you support a false consensus promoted by that other “MSM”, the sort-of minority stream media; “sort-of” because until recently, it included Google, promoting alternative minority sensationalism for click-bait.

    #51801 Reply
    Dave

    @ Clark

    “But the rise is still slower than it would be without restrictions at all”.

    A wild assumption as it assumes targeting the healthy parts of society and economy saves rather than costs lives. Crashing the economy to ‘solve’ the crisis, becomes the crisis, and those supporting this approach are, whether innocently or on purpose, are making the situation worse, and then blaming the government for the crisis, that you (and deep state) support. No wonder Boris has gone into hiding.

    And then asking vulnerable people to “self-isolate” (deemed a punishment in prison) rather than target extra funding to help them live as normally as possible, for example by boosting care worker wages, is also counter-productive, as is frightening people and workers to restrict their activities and stay at home due to an inflated fear catching the virus will kill them.

    #51803 Reply
    Clark

    You can see the rate of increase slowing down in the graphs for each country, linked from this page:

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

    From memory, South Korea most clearly demonstrates the decrease in rates from applying restrictions; the curve has a definite corner as they managed to restrict the spread. South Korea’s restrictions were and are much better targeted than the UK’s.

    Note the ratio between cases and deaths for different countries, and compare against the tests per million population. Notably, Germany has detected far more of its cases relative to its death total, and has done loads of tests.

    I can’t think of any way of slowing down the spread without restricting the economy, but the UK has done quite badly.

    #51804 Reply
    Dave

    You misunderstand seasonal (winter) flu viruses. They arrive and have no or mild impact on general population, but can be deadly for those with underlying (respiratory) health issues and then go away. A natural rise and fall. There is not much you can do to stop them, only mitigate the symptoms.

    Crashing the economy (following Deep State/Imperial College London) “expert advice” and banning children from seeing their parents, attending graves and funerals etc, rather than focusing on the vulnerable (Adult Social Care) has made the cure worse than the disease, as many other mental/medical health problems grow.

    #51805 Reply
    Clark

    Dave, we’ve been concentrating on cases and deaths throughout this discussion, but there are other aspects. CoVID-19 can cause apparently permanent damage, to lungs, other organs, and the nervous system and brain.

    I don’t particularly support the UK government’s response, but the restrictions we have are better than none. There should be far more testing and there should have been intensive contact tracing, but there are probably around ten million infections in the UK by now so it’s too late for contact tracing.

    A vulnerable friend of mine has received official ‘advice’, more like orders really, that he must not leave the house at all. “You may open a window” it says. Sensibly, he’s not restricting himself that severely, but he is being very careful.

    It’s doubly stupid advice because his wife is a healthcare worker and is thus very likely to get infected; the family have divided the house to quarantine her between shifts. The government should have encouraged households to swap members for the duration of the crisis, into households of members of similar risk and vulnerability, but they tried to do nothing for far too long.

    #51806 Reply
    Clark

    Dave, I thought we’d got past the “seasonal flu” nonsense. The graphs I posted rule that out completely.

    “Everything we do before a pandemic will seem alarmist. Everything we do after will seem inadequate.”

    – Michael Leavitt

    A COVID-19 coronavirus update from concerned physicians

    #51807 Reply
    Clark

    China may have had millions of deaths, rather than the 3,341 reported:

    The Closing of 21 Million Cell Phone Accounts in China May Suggest a High CCP Virus Death Toll

    #51808 Reply
    Dave

    The more you test the more you find ‘infected’, which is portrayed as alarming, except it means the virus is mostly harmless as the % fatality gets smaller, and this year’s death rate are below the average for preceding 5 years.

    Calling for more testing and tracking is mostly pointless but serves the compulsory vaccine agenda (a vested interest behind the panic) and a waste, because boosting the immune system, rather than taking at best a placebo, is the best way to stop the virus causing harm.

    Part of this compulsion mentality includes your suggestion for households to swap members. Stalinist or just barmy!

    #51809 Reply
    Clark

    OK Dave, you have nothing factual to say. Ta ta.

    #51812 Reply
    SA

    Dave
    It seems that you are an eternal optimist.
    “The more you test the more you find ‘infected’, which is portrayed as alarming, except it means the virus is mostly harmless as the % fatality gets smaller, and this year’s death rate are below the average for preceding 5 years.”
    Yes that is true the mortality rate will fall if you test more. But you will not reduce the number of people dying by testing more and that is the fact we are now dealing with, more than 10,000 deaths in the last two weeks, if we tested another million and they are all negative, that would still mean that 10,000 have died. Also that the million tested were negative today doesn’t mean that another 100000 will not be positive next week with another 10,000 deaths. Using backward looking statistics to try and predict the future is worse than useless, it is dangerous.
    As to your last sentence, Clark has already pointed out that this is no longer true, but ignoring facts won’t make them go away.

    #51813 Reply
    SA

    Clark @ April 14, 2020 at 23:26
    “China may have had millions of deaths, rather than the 3,341 reported:”
    Clark
    Have you lost your antennae for fake news? I skimmed through some of this rather extremist website headlines and came up with a conclusion that it is part of the agenda to discredit China amongst other agendas. The US is trying very hard, and this unites both sides of the political divide, to blame China for the outbreak by any means. The key here to this being a propaganda site is the use of the expression CCP virus. This is a subtle way of embedding into consciousness that not only is this a Chinese virus but also that it is a communist virus. Elsewhere whenever I hear calling it the Wuhan virus (as common in some Indian media) I cringe. The WHO named the virus SARS cov2 and the disease covid-19 for scientific purposes and those who use alternative terminology, use it for propaganda purposes. I thought you were trying to stop CT rather than encourage them.
    I know many medics, scientists and researchers, and not just in the current crisis, who praise the progress made in China in the biomedical field. The faltering steps and the dire results in the West in dealing with the virus needs a deflection by constantly blaming China.

    #51814 Reply
    SA

    Dave
    “Calling for more testing and tracking is mostly pointless but serves the compulsory vaccine agenda (a vested interest behind the panic) and a waste, because boosting the immune system, rather than taking at best a placebo, is the best way to stop the virus causing harm.”
    I have a suspicion that you are not an immunologist, but then commenting on things one understands little about has become a feature of the Google scholar era. Every single phrase in this quote is nonsensical.

    #51816 Reply
    Dave

    @ SA

    You are advocating testing for the sake of testing as if it was a a solution to anything and sits within the “something must be done” approach to a problem.

    We already know the most at risk groups, but rather than focus there, care homes, the initial focus following “expert advice from ICL” was to wreck the healthy economy, and now to boost the numbers we are alarmed to hear about the care homes.

    There is no defence against the virus apart from taking elementary precautions, (washing hands and handles with soap and water to avoid concentrations of the virus to avoid infecting ourselves), and boosting the immune system.

    This means more resources to care homes to ensure there is the cover there to enable life to continue as much as normal, rather than “self-isolation” which undermines health. And concern about (invasive) ventilators, is faux concern, as they are literally a last resort and can do more harm than the virus.

    #51817 Reply
    Dave

    @ SA

    “Clark, Have you lost your antennae for fake news”?

    He’s an official conspiracy theorist!

    #51818 Reply
    Node

    Am I banned? I’ve had a comment in moderation for 12 hours.

    { Mod: No. However, your comments will be held in moderation until you learn how to contribute without smearing and insulting others, impugning moderation, or misrepresenting data. The discussion forum is intended to serve debate, not to swerve it.

    Moreover the disease is “Covid”, not “Corvid” (which would imply a type of bird flu). ]

    #51819 Reply
    SA

    Dave
    @ April 15, 2020 at 09:03
    As I do not think you have any training in immunology, epidemiology, medicine and perhaps not even science, judging from your confident pronouncements on testing, vaccinations and other issues, I feel I do not need to indulge you with any answers. So enjoy lockup.

    #51826 Reply
    Clark

    SA, ah ha! I sense the opening of an interesting discussion. With you, that is; I’ve met Dave’s modus operandi before, and found it pointless to deploy reason; false claims will be recycled no matter how many times they are discredited.

    I did note that an article on the New Hampshire Politician site was authored by someone from Fox News. Nevertheless, the 21 million closed cellphone accounts is evidence of something, and along with the mobile crematoria may help build a more accurate picture of covid-19’s impact in China, which almost certainly has been suppressed by the Chinese authorities’ stranglehold upon information. I therefore blessed the article with a single sentence of my effort which included the word ‘may’.

    But I also noted that there’s a link to another article about the possibility that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a biolab. This is a vitally important issue that has been played down, even in academic sources. Of course, that article pretends that Chinese biolabs are somehow less safe than Western biolabs, not mentioning that the second UK foot-and-mouth epidemic was traced to a lab escape in the UK, nor that the 2001 blackmail anthrax was deliberately exfiltrated from Fort Detrick. Chinese biolabs are much like Western biolabs; staff work 9 to 5 in city centres, rather than far more gruelling and therefore expensive three-month live-in work commitments in remote locations.

    The New Hampshire Politician articles are propaganda rather than conspiracy theory; no ever-widening, hermetically secret conspiracy is required to support the claims they make. However, I propose that conspiracy theory is a common human response to constant immersion in propaganda.

    This is a fundamental problem, because almost all media is propagandistic to some extent. In particular, each propaganda source systematically omits whichever facts contradict the impression it’s trying promote, so that we have to fish through opposing propagandas in our attempt to build a complete picture.

    I further propose that propagandists will recognise information as propaganda but only when it opposes their ideological position, whereas conspiracy theorists deny that there is any such thing as conspiracy theory whatsoever. Distortion reaches its nadir on social media with commenters like Dave, who shamelessly deploy conspiracy theories in the service of their favourite propaganda agendas.

    #51832 Reply
    Clark

    Dave, you may have been distracted by your obsession with the “deep state”, but another incentive for the right-wing US and UK governments to concentrate on protecting older people is that these are their predominant voter base.

    #51839 Reply
    SA

    Clark
    I note the difference between CT (Wiki) and propaganda. But is there any independent verification of this statement?
    “Nevertheless, the 21 million closed cellphone accounts is evidence of something, and along with the mobile crematoria may help build a more accurate picture of covid-19’s impact in China, which almost certainly has been suppressed by the Chinese authorities’ stranglehold upon information.”
    The theory that the virus is an escapee from a biolab in Wuhan has also been the subject of some debate which I have tried to address in the other thread about Covid-19. There have been some very rebuttal of this by a number of non-Chinese authors. Also I think that if there was any chance of that being true you would have had the whole US establishment, starting with the Narcissist in chief drumming this up no end.
    The WHO has praised the Chinese authorities for the way they have dealt with this crisis and how they have now suppressed the infection and certain prominent scientists have also stood up for China. China is not exactly a closed place and even if the authorities try to hide some statistics, it would really hardly be able to manage to hide the death of millions.
    Of course healthy scepticism to consider news on both sides as any news is tinged with propaganda, but we must all be vigilant.

    #51840 Reply
    SA

    OK, I begin to understand.
    https://www.ibtimes.sg/china-hiding-covid-19-death-toll-21-million-cell-phones-disappeared-why-41580

    “The comparison showed that the number of cell phone users decreased from 1.600957 billion to 1.579927 billion,”
    Later on the article states:
    “While the drop in these numbers showed a dramatic scenario in China, Tang said, “It’s possible that some migrant workers had two cell phone numbers before. One is from their hometown, and the other is from the city they work in. In February, they might close the number in the city they work in because they couldn’t go there.”
    But the whole population of China is just above 1,4 billion
    https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/

    Given that the figure will include infants and young children, it means that the average Chinese probably has more than one mobile phone accounts and that maybe some who did have more than one decided to save by abandoning their subscription?

    #51842 Reply
    Dave

    @ Clark

    “Dave, you may have been distracted by your obsession with the “deep state”, but another incentive for the right-wing US and UK governments to concentrate on protecting older people is that these are their predominant voter base”.

    Except the lockdown is entirely counter-productive for 99% including the elderly.

    #51843 Reply
    Dave

    The MSM tactic against Trump is no different from their tactic against Corbyn, albeit worse. Fake a crisis, “anti-Semitism”, and constantly say why aren’t YOU doing MORE to solve it. There is no defence or escape from the battering, because even calling it out as Fake, is deemed evidence of “anti-Semitism”.

    The Pan-Panic has instilled fear in many people, and the initial response following “expert medical opinion” has made things worse, and all the problems are placed at Trump’s door, deliberately to blame HIM for the crisis.

    He sensibly wants to lift the lockdown as the cure is worse than the disease, but HE is getting the blame for all the problems due to the lockdown. Its a sort of new War on Death that he can’t win, because people are always dying whatever you do.

    #51844 Reply
    Clark

    SA, the Chinese lockdown has been brutal. Doors to apartment blocks have been welded closed; this is not fake news, multiple residents’ videos have emerged. Entire families have died in their apartments; people wrote of screaming in the night. People have been arrested and held for considerable times, for videoing the backlog of corpses awaiting cremation, yet excess organic combustion products have been detected in the atmosphere by satellite. The Chinese government wouldn’t shut down Chinese manufacturing for a paltry 80,000 cases and under 4000 deaths, no more that the Western government would shut down road transport for far worse figures.

    There are multiple indications that the Chinese authorities have suppressed the real figures.

    SA, I do not join in with “us versus them” politics, not on any side. All states are repressive. The fact that the West propagandises against the Chinese state doesn’t absolve that state. All states are in the business of controlling their populations and destroying the biosphere for monetary profit. In XR we call it the Toxic System.

    #51845 Reply
    Clark

    Dave; “Mental health is an ongoing process of dedication to reality at all costs”.

    #51846 Reply
    Clark

    SA, I was really more interested to discuss the relationship between propaganda and conspiracy theory. This is, after all, a conspiracy theory thread!

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