Israeli Murders, NATO and Afghanistan

by craig on June 2, 2010 7:18 am in Palestine

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I was in the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office for over 20 years and a member of its senior management structure for six years, I served in five countries and took part in 13 formal international negotiations, including the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea and a whole series of maritime boundary treaties. I headed the FCO section of a multidepartmental organisation monitoring the arms embargo on Iraq.

I am an instinctively friendly, open but unassuming person who always found it easy to get on with people, I think because I make fun of myself a lot. I have in consequence a great many friends among ex-colleagues in both British and foregin diplomatic services, security services and militaries.

I lost very few friends when I left the FCO over torture and rendition. In fact I seemed to gain several degrees of warmth with a great many acquantances still on the inside. And I have become known as a reliable outlet for grumbles, who as an ex-insider knows how to handle a discreet and unintercepted conversation.

What I was being told last night was very interesting indeed. NATO HQ in Brussels is today a very unhappy place. There is a strong understanding among the various national militaries that an attack by Israel on a NATO member flagged ship in international waters is an event to which NATO is obliged – legally obliged, as a matter of treaty – to react.

I must be plain – nobody wants or expects military action against Israel. But there is an uneasy recognition that in theory that ought to be on the table, and that NATO is obliged to do something robust to defend Turkey.

Mutual military support of each other is the entire raison d’etre of NATO. You must also remember that to the NATO military the freedom of the high seas guaranteed by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is a vital alliance interest which officers have been conditioned to uphold their whole career.

That is why Turkey was extremely shrewd in reacting immediately to the Israeli attack by calling an emergency NATO meeting. It is why, after the appalling US reaction to the attack with its refusal to name Israel, President Obama has now made a point of phoning President Erdogan to condole.

But the unhappiness in NATO HQ runs much deeper than that, I spoke separately to two friends there, from two different nations. One of them said NATO HQ was “a very unhappy place”. The other described the situation as “Tense – much more strained than at the invasion of Iraq”.

Why? There is a tendency of outsiders to regard the senior workings of governments and international organisations as monolithic. In fact there are plenty of highly intelligent – and competitive – people and diverse interests involved.

There are already deep misgivings, especially amongst the military, over the Afghan mission. There is no sign of a diminution in Afghan resistance attacks and no evidence of a clear gameplan. The military are not stupid and they can see that the Karzai government is deeply corrupt and the Afghan “national” army comprised almost exclusively of tribal enemies of the Pashtuns.

You might be surprised by just how high in Nato scepticism runs at the line that in some way occupying Afghanistan helps protect the west, as opposed to stoking dangerous Islamic anger worldwide.

So this is what is causing frost and stress inside NATO. The organisation is tied up in a massive, expensive and ill-defined mission in Afghanistan that many whisper is counter-productive in terms of the alliance aim of mutual defence. Every European military is facing financial problems as a public deficit financing crisis sweeps the continent. The only glue holding the Afghan mission together is loyalty to and support for the United States.

But what kind of mutual support organisation is NATO when members must make decades long commitments, at huge expense and some loss of life, to support the Unted States, but cannot make even a gesture to support Turkey when Turkey is attacked by a non-member?

Even the Eastern Europeans have not been backing the US line on the Israeli attack. The atmosphere in NATO on the issue has been very much the US against the rest, with the US attitude inside NATO described to me by a senior NATO officer as “amazingly arrogant – they don’t seem to think it matters what anybody else thinks”.

Therefore what is troubling the hearts and souls of non-Americans in NATO HQ is this fundamental question. Is NATO genuinely a mutual defence organisation, or is it just an instrument to carry out US foreign policy? With its unthinking defence of Israel and military occupation of Afghanistan, is US foreign policy really defending Europe, or is it making the World less safe by causing Islamic militancy?

I leave the last word to one of the senior NATO officers – who incidentally is not British:

“Nobody but the Americans doubts the US position on the Gaza attack is wrong and insensitve. But everyone already quietly thought the same about wider American policy. This incident has allowed people to start saying that now privately to each other.”

Craig Murray is a former British Ambassador. He is also a former Head of the Maritime Section of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. He negotiated the UK’s current maritime boundaries with Ireland, Denmark (Faeroes), Belgium and France, and boundaries of the Channel Islands, Turks and Caicos and British Virgin Islands. He was alternate Head of the UK Delegation to the UN Preparatory Commission on the Law of the Sea. He was Head of the FCO Section of the Embargo Surveillance Centre, enforcing sanctions on Iraq, and directly responsible for clearance of Royal Navy boarding operations in the Persian Gulf.

Reviews of Craig Murray’s War on Terror Memoir, “Murder in Samarkand” – published in the US as “Dirty Diplomacy”:

“It really is a magnificent achievement” – Noam Chomsky

“A fearless book by a fearless man. Craig Murray tells the truth whether the “authorities” like it or not. I salute a man of integrity” – Harold Pinter

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242 Comments

  1. Fascinating post, Craig.

    I think all eyes will be on the MV Rachel Corrie. BBC reports that the MV Rachel Corrie has declared that it will continue to Gaza with its humanitarian supplies.

    I believe the MV Rachel Corrie is registered in Ireland.

  2. I’ve been noticing over the past few days that Google has not been highlighting the Israeli/Flotilla murders and kidnapping, in its “in the news” section.

    You can see here that even though the Israeli/Flotilla murders and kidnapping is by far the biggest story over the past few days with nearly 16,000 articles, it doesn’t feature in Google’s “in the news” section of the most covered stories.

    Curious, eh.

    http://news.google.co.uk/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn

  3. peacewisher

    2 Jun, 2010 - 9:21 am

    Not at all curious, Zim.

    By the time the BBC refused to show the Gaza charity appeal last year it had become obvious that the mainstream media were being controlled by those who also control the Zionist entity.

    I think that was the last straw also for a lot of jews who previously had some sympathy with Zionism – including the MP Gerald Kaufmann.

    We are now in a period of gradual awakening… when people come to realise that they have been deceived.

    Rachel Corrie died for a humanitarian cause… as with Steve Biko in South Africa, the name is enough to defeat the media lies, and it looks increasingly like – as with Biko – her death was not in vain.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gaza-TV-News/119275738102852#!/pages/Rachel-Corrie/9284243339?ref=ts

  4. I never use google for my news (so I can’t comment on the last few days), but I just checked and the top story is in relation to the raid, both on news.google.co.uk and news.google.com.my. news.google.com.au has it at the top of the world section.

    It does make me happy that it appears that the deaths of the humanitarians will not have been in vain. However it is depressing that 40+ years of oppression against the Palestinians hasn’t caused the same outrage, but that’s the world we live in.

  5. mike cobley

    2 Jun, 2010 - 9:27 am

    It seems that the Irish governmnet has asked the Israelis to allow the Rachel Corrie to deliver its humanitarian cargo unhindered.

    http://forargyll.com/2010/06/gaza-flotilla-update-mv-rachel-corrie-still-headed-for-gaza/

  6. Craig

    Lots more good stuff at Glenn Greenwald’s blog, if for no other reason than to remind us that the slavish refusal of the American government to criticise Israel is not reflective of the views of all Americans.

    But thank you for the notes on NATO, I asked in an earlier thread if Turkey could ratchet up the pressure through the alliance and it seems they can. I still wonder though if the deal two weeks ago with Iran on the storage of enriched uranium is a key part of the backdrop here, without it I can’t make sense of why Israel would do something so obviously illegal and provocative.

  7. Fascinating insight Craig.

    Could NATO’s unease come from possible contingency planning as well, as the threats and possibilities of a middle east war have been on the cards for some time?

    NATO should have been disbanded after the cold war, it would have made for clearer lines in Afghanistan today.

    Now they are faced with mission creep and all sorts of obligations, off course there is no time to help Turkey, but help they must.

    If they do not react to this vile flagration of international law, then what is there to stop Turkey defending itself next time? and they will.

    If two activsts were shot before the helicopters landed their soldiers, then this contradicts all the spin trodden out by the likes of melanie Phillips of firebomb throwing activsts.

    It is disturbing that the news spin is so deep that it can divert the google machinery so fast, very worrying indeed.

  8. Fascinating article, Craig. Since Bush and Blair I have felt that NATO was manipulated to become a tool for US foreign policy. The Georgia debacle was a frightening example of how politicians might try and ‘include’ distasteful regimes inside NATO in order to trigger further disastrous wars. NATO has zero business in Afghanistan – that is surely obvious. NATO was a cold war alliance, it has no relevance to the modern world. Especially now that the US views it as synonymous with the laughably entitled ‘international community’ ie the US and its satellites. We must applaud Turkey and also Ireland for the simple act of speaking up and defending their citizens against violence and murder. Why is it so hard for the UK and Europe to do this? It would have been a straightforward defence of our own interests not so long ago. It would do the US a power of good to hear that its so-called ‘partner’, Europe, is in complete disagreement with its policies. Is the sky going to fall in when we stand up for our beliefs? How have we managed to breed such a feeble, craven political culture when even the loon Maggie wouldn’t think twice about browbeating the US about its idiocy?

  9. Craig:

    Your personal insights about the rich and powerful are one of my favourite parts of your blog. The “grumbles” you pass along offer an invaluable perspective on the inner workings of government.

    It still makes me laugh when I think about blog post ‘Parasite News’. Comedy gold.

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2007/07/parasite_news.html

  10. CheebaCow

    What I’m saying is that even though this story is by far the most covered in media, it doesn’t appear in Google’s “in the news” section of the most covered stories.

    Google doesn’t control all those media outlets that are covering the story, but it does control its “in the news” section.

    So how is it that their “in the news” section doesn’t feature this story?

  11. Craig

    Thanks a bunch for a solid insightful analysis. On your home-ground so to speak, it’s what you really do excel at. As for the last word of that senior NATO officer, those of us who no longer have any career-dependant ties to the Anglo-American Imperial Project and its fellow-travelling derivatives, answered his question a long time ago, as I’m sure, in your heart you have to.

  12. Zim, I was referring to the “in the news section’ as far as I know. I just double checked the link you included in your first post and the top story is related to the attack.

  13. Dear Craig,

    Excellent piece. The atmosphere you describe is precisely the one I ‘gleen’ from people I talk to who move in more rarified circles than I’ve chosen to. Whilst you were pushed out, I went into exile freely.

    Underneath the surface there are massive misgivings about the US leadership of NATO, and that US methods and interests simply don’t fit with Europe’s anymore. It was hoped that with the election of Obama things would change substantively, not cosmetically, from the Bush era. That, possibly, naive hope/delusion has been undergoing radical reappraisal over the last year or so.

    It’s now quite clear that Obama does not represent a clean break with the past, but merely a continuation, with an emphasis on continuity, especially in relation to the Middle East and the conflicts in Asia. This continuity worries many people in Europe, who are uneasy about where this may lead, witness the sudden resignation of the German president who made a ‘gaffe’ about the connection between German economic interests and the war in Afghanistan.

    Anyway, my fear is that the US is actually becoming more, not less, integrated with Israel, and that the relationship deeply harmful to the interests of the United States, which arguably cannot be the same as those of Israel.

    My biggest fear is that the United States is coming to resemble Israel more and more in the way it conducts its foreign policy, in relation to the rest of the world. The die hasn’t been cast definitively, but that seems to be the way things are moving.

    It’s startling; that even when the American people reject the policies of the Bush era and elect a president who they think represents the hope of change and peace and renewal, how much in practice, remains the same, almost as if the election had never taken place and didn’t matter. Ufortunately, from my ‘champange anarchist’ perspective, I suspect it didn’t, not really.

  14. CheebaCow

    The “in the news” section is in the right hand side of the Google news page.

    It’s got Theo Walcot and Fabio, amongst other things, there at the moment.

    It’s a quick link to the most covered stories of the day.

    The Israel/Flotilla incident isn’t mentioned.

    You have to wonder what munging of the search and indexing system produced a result that has had no mention of by far the biggest story of the past few days.

  15. If you look at Google’s graph under the Timeline of Articles it appears that the graph has today gone to zero, on the Isarel/Flotilla story.

    Does anyone really believe that that represents the coverage of this story today, around the world?

    http://news.google.co.uk/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&ncl=dMZmNDdWAggXrkMw4dU3dv5hkbKZM&topic=h

  16. Zim:

    Ok now I see the section you are talking about. However I still don’t agree with your interpretation that it is google trying to hide a story. The first article, and article that is in the most valuable/visible part of the page is about the attack. The ‘In the News’ section is relatively hidden, if the attack was not in the ‘Top Stories’ section but in the ‘In the News’ section I would actually be more inclined to agree with you. Also note that ALL the content displayed on the news page is determined by google. They are under no obligation to display any of the stories they display.

  17. Zim,

    I’m just guessing here – I know that Google individually identifies our computer accounts by setting ‘cookies’ in them. I suspect that search results are modified for each individual computer user account; that is the sort of thing Google specialise in. Try clearing cookies, or try from a different machine, and see if results vary.

  18. You really have to wonder at the mental health of these Israelis.

    The psychopathology is interesting though in highlighting one of the features of the psychopath; an inability to understand proportionality. That’s quite a common theme in Israeli dramatics.

    “Israel’s ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, has compared the Gaza flotilla attack with America’s fight against Nazi Germany in the Second World War.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7796277/Gaza-flotilla-attack-Israeli-ambassador-compares-raid-to-Second-World-War.html

  19. Clark

    It’s nothing to do with cookies. I use Firefox on stealth, so don’t have any.

    The indexing system has quite clearly been munged, to exlude the story.

  20. The graph shows that 48 minutes ago there were still 1600 sources covering the incident, about 500 lower than 1 day ago. Seems like reasonable numbers to me. I think the fact that the graph displays a line for a time period before data has been properly collected is perhaps a little confusing. Anyway I don’t wanna derail the thread any more. I will agree to disagree =P

  21. Cheebacow

    Why do you think the most covered story by far over the past few days does not appear in Google’s list of most covered stories?

  22. Zim,

    all those graphs go to zero on the right for all articles. I suspect that it’s because they start counting now, so the number is low. At the update interval, the number is displayed (no longer zero), the graph moves left, and the new right is zero.

    Craig,

    when we’ve reassured Zim, could you delete this techy stuff please?, it detracts from an important piece.

  23. Ron:

    Psychopaths can actually be very successful, as they have a cold rationality to their actions where they don’t let emotions get in the way. They can understand social expectations and conform to them when others are looking even if they don’t have the same values themselves, this is because they understand that to not do so would be detrimental to themselves. I think Israel’s behaviour has generally followed this same pattern. What has greatly interested me about Israel’s recent actions is that they seem to have stopped behaving as they did previously, and have actually become quite irrational in behaviour.

  24. You do have to wonder about the psychology of the Israelis as mentioned above. The denialism that is rampant in Israel is obvious to anyone who has been there. The delusional nature of their ideological beliefs is quite staggering to outsiders. Their dependence on a manufactured narrative about their past and therefore their ‘rights’ is astonishing, as is their willingess to believe whatever the military tell them. Like the fantastist, the more dissonant their views are with reality, the more they shore them up and invent extravagant claims, making wild allegations against those who threaten their artifical worldview. Goldstone, peace activists, whoever challenges them must be met with slander, smearing, violence – whatever it takes. A classic example of the delusional nature of the Israel project is taking place in front of our eyes.Unfortunately for them, the more absurd their rationalisations, the more of a pariah they become, which of course reinforces their belief in their own exceptionalism, their ‘victimhood’ and their need to escalate the situation with even more lethal violence. That the founder of psycho analysis was Jewish is too ironic for words.

  25. Zim:

    The ‘In the News’ section appears to the most common names/phrases of the last few days. Due to the highly political nature of Israel’s attack different news organisations are going to use very different words to frame the issue. Pro Palestinian articles will call it an attack or a massacre, whereas pro Israel pieces will call it defence or whatever terms they are using to spin the issue. This effectively halves the commonality of each phrase. It’s not surprising that sports stars are prominent in that section. Regardless of political views, one can agree on who the winner of an event was. Ok this really is my last post on the topic, sorry everyone.

  26. The perceived irrationality of Israel resembles Nixon’s “mad dog” posture towards N.Vietnam.

    Nixon wanted to convince the enemy that he was capable of doing anything including using nuclear weapons.

    Israelis like the military historian, Martin Van Crefeld, have made similar threats re-willingness to target even Europe as pay-back for the “Holocaust” if it perceives it’s been forced into a corner.

    References to the apparent determination of the US to stoke Islamic resentment in the Middle East and Central Asia all point to the likelihood that the Anglo-US synarchy will use Israel to spark a major conflict in the near future.

    As economists like Gerald Celente have warned the bankers have done it before and will do it again.

    Did I mention that NATO will do the bidding of the bankers?

    Did I use the Z word before bankers?

    As if I would!

    Just in passing can I just mention that it was the French Rothschilds who bank-rolled LBJ’s escalation of the Vietnam war after the JFK assassination and the staged Tonkin incident.

    Well I did anyway.

    Wait for the censor……….

  27. CheebaCow

    I would have expected that with all the coverage this story is getting the term “Gaza” or indeed “Israel” or “Israeli” might have made an appearance.

    I find it surprising, to say the least, that Google’s indexing system is so poor as to more highly rate “David Laws”, “Land Registry” or “Crystal Palace” as more common news items than “Gaza” or “Israel” over the past few days.

    Indeed, were I a shareholder I’d be very concerned that any competitor could easily develop much better algorithms than Google are currently using on this feature.

  28. Oh dear. Even Stephen Nolan is now giving Israeli spokesman Marc Regev a hard time.

    Last night Kirsty Wark tore strips out of him or some other clone.

    The worm has turned.

    Let’s hope we can finally agree that Israel needs to be brought to heel and collectively work towards that goal.

  29. I am a little bemused by the comments on the BBC that the detainees are being “Deported” given that these people were siezed on the high seas by armed soldiers, then illegally taken into custody in a foreign country how cna they the be deported if they never entered the the country volenterally in the first place?

    Craig E

  30. Censor in overdrive!

    References to cognitive dissonance incurred as result of Zionist psychological warfare programmes re-eternal Jewish victimhood,”anti-semitism” and the “Holocaust” now being deleted wholesale.

    We are grown up enough to make our own minds up about whether or not there exists a Zionist plan for WW3.

    It ill behoves a supposedly liberal blogger to delete links to evidence that such a plan exists.

    Mr Murray is now on the list at left-gatekeeper.com!

  31. Even the Americans are wising up to Israel. Massively too.

    Larry from St Loopy will be pleased

    “In reaction to Israel’s deadly attack on a Gaza-bound humanitarian Flotilla, massive anti-Israeli protests have erupted across the United States.”

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=128761&sectionid=3510203

  32. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 11:45 am

    If you believe that “massive anti-Israeli protests” are occurring in the States, then clearly you’ve been manipulated by Iranian state-run media.

    Do you also believe that there are no homosexuals in Iran?

  33. In general, people, under situations of ‘stress’ seem to resort to a form of psychological ‘defence’ mechanism, where they seek solace and escape in the arms of fantasy or mythology. In short one creates a reality one can control and understand, rather than face the real world. It’s an attempt to make sense of the world. ‘Sense’ which is often false.

    Obviously I’m simplifying a lot here for the sake of clarity and space.

    Anyway, this individual mechanism can also apply to large groups of people, and when this happens the effect seems to be multiplide, with often truly disasterous consequences to follow.

    Here on can mention the case of Germany in the 30′s when there was a veritable flight away from rationality into the comforting and simplistic mythology, the ecstacy of escape, of NAZI religion or ‘ideology.’ That was a very extreme example.

    The extreme right in Israel, and not just there, remind me, or have many of the same traits, that characterised the fascist movements of mainland Europe.

    There’s a terrible, obscene, historical irony at work here. But if one looks at the history of Zionism, where it originated and the ideas it contained it’s more understandable. Essentially Zionism is a product, a branch, of eastern european romantic nationalism and ethno-racialism, combined. Though not as extreme, in the beginning, the roots of Zionism in eastern europe are the same mix of half-baked and misunderstood ideas that ‘produced’ fascism, in extremis.

    This is why so many of the attitudes, language and mythology, and not least actions, of the extreme, nationalist, right, in Israel have echoes of fascism about them.

    It’s arguable whether Israel was ever truly a ‘democracy’. Certainly the policy of ethnic cleansing effectively denied millions of Palestinians the right to take an active part in the future of their country, as they were not allowed to vote or take part in the democratic process which was ‘rigged’ to favour one particular ethnic group and give them an ‘artificial’ majority inside the disputed boundaries of the new Israeli state.

    But that’s the past, and we live in the eternal now. Clearly, Israel is now moving away from even a semblance of democracy and is becoming, however ironic, integrated into the normal type of totalitarian, dictatorship, states form that characterises the Middle East.

  34. “Last night Kirsty Wark tore strips out of him or some other clone.”

    Ouch. I can’t watch Newsnight when Wark hosts, she is such an abysmal interviewer, but that’s got to hurt if even she could go to work on the spokesgoon.

  35. Does Zim not know that Google’s co founder Sergei Brin is well embedded with the Zionist terror state and went there for its 60th ‘birthday’.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Brin

    What clever people these Zionists are!

  36. What I believe Larry is that Israel is getting a well-deserved and not before time kicking in media and diplomatic circles.

    Everyone is well and truly fed up with this nasty racist state, which pushed its luck just once too far.

    Even friends of Israel in media are finding it difficult to sell the “poor wee victim Israel just defending itself” myth, and their careers are much more important to them than defending loopy religious fruitcakes with nukes who want to take on the whole world.

    You see, there was time when career advancement in media and politics was enhanced by support for Israel. That’s now changing and support for Israel will in future be seen as a hindrance to advancement.

    You can thank Bibi for that. He never was very bright.

  37. Ed

    She annoys me too. Nolan annoys me even more.

    I have to say though that last night and this morning they did their jobs well.

    Just shows ya. They’ve been let off the BBC leash.

    Don’t forget that Wark only became prominent nationally after a very forceful local Scottish interview with Thatcher in the 1980s. She can do it when she wants to.

    My complaint was only that she didn’t do enough of it. She hasn’t lost it though.

  38. Am I missing something here or is it really only because of the Holocaust that the Israelis believe the rest of the world owes them something.

    Perhaps there is something inherently superior about them which has them believe they are the master race and not the Nazi’s.

  39. Craig, a splendid post, and one that really gets under the skin of the issue.

    Forgive the James Bond question, but I am curious how you avoid having your conversations intercepted. It would be a reasonable assumption that your telephones are keenly tuned into – and your various sources would surely be aware of that!

  40. Or is that a racist comment?

  41. I would say the successful commercial organisations I’ve worked for have tended to be led by superficially charming people who have turned out to be liars with no conscience or empathy with their staff and an overriding self regard.

    The couple of places I’ve worked that have gone bust were run by really nice people.

  42. Zim doesn’t care much for politics.

    He’s just a private investor on a pension, concerned that Google’s indexing algorithms are in need of attention.

    See. I’m not the only one worried. Others have noticed too:

    http://www.google.co.uk/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:GOOG

  43. The 499GT MV Rachel Corrie still seems to be Cambodian flagged although her home port is Dundalk and she is owned by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement.

    As from December 2004, the International Maritime Organization (IMO) requires all vessels over 299GT to carry an AIS transponder on board, which transmits their position, speed and course, among some other static information, such as vessel’s name, dimensions and voyage details.

    This AIS info is plotted on a Google map mostly in real time on a website developed and run by the University of the Aegean, http://www.marinetraffic.com

    However, for some unidentified reason, no AIS data has been received from the MV Rachel Corrie since 01:15 am on Monday 31st May reporting she was sailing south from Malta (where you can see that Rainbow Warrior is currently moored).

    Most likely she is out of marinetraffic.com’s coverage. Although there are around 500 ships showing up in the Mediterranean east of Athens, all of them seem to be north of Saida in south Lebanon. This seems odd considering there probably should be a stream of ships heading to and from the Suez canal. And, of course, the other flotilla ships are not currently showing up.

    It’s interesting to see that the BBC used an AP graphic from the University of the Aegean here to plot the other flotilla ships.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/dhtml_slides/10/gaza_flotilla/img/istan_israel_5.gif

  44. This NATO issue needs to be ramped up in the blogosphere, the main stream media are not acknowledging it, it has to be forced into the public domain and debated openly.

  45. Tom, great posts, all. Thanks for making these superb points.

    If I may venture to suggest, from experience on, and observation of, this blog, that one be wary of engaging with the very few bloggers who themselves refuse to engage with others and whose sole purpose on all threads seems to be disruption and the conveyance of provocative insult, rather than reasoned debate. Responding to them merely allows them to continue to come back and to divert and undermine reasoned analysis. There may be an irruption of precisely the sort to which I am alluding, sometime following this post. But it will be ignored by me. It is of no consequence. What is of consequence is the matter at hand.

    Thaks very much again for your astute comments. And thanks also to Mike Cobley and Jon for their support and engagement, it’s really appreciated.

  46. If the Americans really don’t care what others think, they shouldn’t worry much if fellow members of NATO pull out of Afghanistan. But maybe actually it does matter to them, in which case it can be used to persuade them to listen to their fellow members more.

  47. jon

    face to face.

  48. Redders, all of us do need to be careful not to dip into the boundaries of anti-Jewish sentiment. Many Jewish people, and a good minority of Israelis, are horrified at the ongoing siege of Gaza. For them – just as with their Jewish ideological opponents – the Holocaust is a terrible memory within their cultural identity and we should respect that – it was one of the worst crimes of the 20th century. Do some people exploit the Holocaust for the benefit of expansionist Israeli foreign policy? Sure, yes, but not every Israeli, or every Jew – a fact that is critical here.

    But I agree there is a danger amongst the hard right in Israel, and amongst religious ideologues, to promote the ‘chosen people’ myth, which is then recycled in legitimised racism. And whilst I condemn anti-semitism, the Israeli govt could not be more blinkered on how it is being judged internationally despite their propaganda efforts. They should be thinking not “what can be get away with” but “how does this affect how people see Israel, Israelis and Jewish people”. The hard-right government, and the militarist culture is creating, in effect, some of the anti-semitism that encourages the hardline, aggressive atmosphere in the first place.

  49. Can’t the US be kicked out of NATO? They seem to do nothing to benefit any country but their own and influence other countries to follow in their wake. I know it’s pretty well impossible to do but just though I’d chip in my tuppence worth.

    I’m also interested to hear what the American public think about this. The US government seems to be disproportionally influenced by those sympathetic to Israel but there are plenty of American, right wing ‘WASP’s’ who would happily leave the country to its fate, where are they all?

  50. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 12:42 pm

    Yes, Tom, brilliant contribution by linking to Iranian state-run media.

  51. Suhayl – no problem. I spend only a little time on disruptive input – just enough to calm them down, and to dissuade others from engaging with them at length.

  52. Monty,

    thats an interesting map, thanks. Cargo vessels Lady Malakeh and Chesapeake Belle were headed into that strangely empty area; they are no longer shown. Let;’s see what happens to Druzhba Narodov.

  53. I find the Iranian state run media to be rather more reliable than the British state run media.

  54. I’ve not read Press TV, I really should give it a go. We would do well to be cynical, but whether it deserves markedly more cynicism than the British free media is an open question. The BBC output tend towards Israel partly because it is more time-consuming to defend criticism of Israel than of Palestine. Power and money is, of course, centred around people who hold pro-Israel views, and rarely around their ideological opposites.

    And I would be interested in the ratio of anti-war observers invited onto Radio 4′s Today programme versus the number of pro-”Afghan mission” talking heads. I would guess it is in the order of 1:500 – the “balance” really is not even an attempt at balance, as is usual.

  55. Jon, elegant response. But in many ways the Jews are like the Brits and the Yanks, individually wonderful people to know but collectively, jingoistic, international pains in the ass. Britain’s collective opinion of itself is still of Britannia ruling the waves, of Douglas Bader knocking the Hun out the sky and having the best football team in the world because we won the world cup, once.

    The problem is we export all of this in our political approach to the international community, albeit perhaps unintentionally, but we are still perceived as an aggressive, battle ready nation with disillusion of grander times when the empire was the next best thing since the Roman Empire.

    If we believe US foreign policy sucks perhaps we should examine our own record before condemning the Americans or the Israelis for that matter. We continue to have more recent blood on our boots than Israel, notably Afghanistan and Iraq but also our approach to the Northern Ireland conflict must be questioned.

    As an international community we stand as responsible for this act of murder on the high seas as Israel, we condoned the occupation of Palestine and were politically naive enough to believe there would be no Palestinian backlash. It has been us and the US selling modern weaponry to Israel citing commercial freedom as a good enough excuse but for some bizarre reason the Palestinians aren’t able to buy the same kit. We stand by and watch whilst entire communities are cut off by a wall akin to the Berlin wall; do we remember the cheers and news coverage that went up when the oppressed East Berlin was freed? and yet we allow Israel to commit the same crime. We don’t stop their import of cement in the same way they deny the Palestinians the same thing, they strike back at an entire community with ultra modern weaponry when home made missiles are occasionally launched against them.

    I could go on and as brilliant as Craig’s post is, he misses the desperately important point that British citizens stand on the sidelines and moan and groan when Israel visits its own racial persecution against a poorer, weaker and divided community but we are complicit in it.

    Lets show the Palestinians some humanity by using the Royal Navy to protect humanitarian aid sailing to Gaza on the high seas. Lets use our aggression against a country that can fight back instead of against ill equipped Afghan’s and possibly the worst equipped army ever to take on the collective might of the US and Great Britain, the Iraqi’s.

    Not so bad at oppression ourselves are we?

  56. I hoped that with Obama presidency, we would not see these kinds of double standards in international diplomacy. The US reaction over the Gaza Flotilla was a shocking disgrace.

    Turkey is such an important country straddling as it does Europe and the Middle East, Secular and Muslim. We are in danger of treating Turkey like a subordinate nation, almost as a chip in a poker game like at the time of the Cuban missile crisis, rather than as an equal.

    Yes, the US’s UN ambassador might have succeeded in getting a form of words that satisfy them but do they really think that will not lead to seething anger and resentment in the Turkish parliament and on the streets.

    Israel needs saving from itself. Only the strongest of words and the threat of sanctions will curb it’s propensity to racism, isolationism and rogue status. The same pressure that had to be brought upon South Africa, for the same reasons.

  57. doug scorgie

    2 Jun, 2010 - 1:30 pm

    Craig, In a letter in today’s Guardian a man writes: “…it is also very important to stress that a state, in a time of conflict, can impose an embargo, and carry out embargo activities in international waters. Within this framework it is legal to detain a civilian vessel trying to break an embargo, and if force is used against those carrying out the detention then they have every right to act in self-defence. The unfortunate loss of life was a direct result of the violence used by the extremists on the ship.”

    I don’t believe this but can you clarify?

  58. doug,

    It is true during a war. What war?

  59. “The Brussels-based European campaign against the siege on Gaza announced Wednesday that they had secured funds to support three new aid ships to be sailed to Gaza”.

    “The officials aid the ships would sail in a few weeks’ time, from ports in Turkey, whose Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan confirmed his country’s support, including aid contributions, for the flotilla.

    During a televised speech on Tuesday, Edrogan said future flotillas bound for Gaza territorial waters under Israeli threat would be accompanied by a military escort to ensure its safety”.

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=289111

  60. “What war?”

    Israel has said, in an obviously cute attempt to rewrite international law, blockades are legal “in times of armed conflict”.

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2010.htm

  61. Monty,

    marinetraffic.com seems not to do coverage south of about 40 degrees north. I don’t know why though. Zoom out until you see their coverage cells.

  62. “It is true during a war. What war?”

    One in which the opposition aren’t allowed to shoot back.

  63. Guesswork:

    Israel wish to provoke Turkey into a response, with a view to discrediting them, due to the Iran / Turkey Uranium deal.

    Israels attack was not so much arrogance as desperation.

  64. There seems to be a bit of an “Israel losing its marbles” theme developing.

    Norman G. Finkelstein is at it too:

    “Israel Is Now a Lunatic State”

    http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/finkelstein310510.html

    The US needs to bring these very dangerous people under control immediately, if such a thing is now even possible.

    I just hope they don’t have nuclear weapons.

  65. It’s seemed fairly obvious to me that a European defence identity, unreliant on the whims of the US, is in the interests of Europeans even disregarding this issue. The UK’s defence needs have far more in common with the French than the US simply by virtue of being in the same place (thus the same neighbours, trade routes, immigrants) and being around the same size.

    Europe certainly shouldn’t need the US as protectors: the US aside, the combined military expenditure of the EU is about the same as that of the rest of the world combined, and technologically eclipses all but those who use NATO weapons anyway.

  66. Fascinating utter irrelevance Craig

  67. Now that we have the eyewitness testimony of survivors of the Israeli attack, we can see that the Israelis were lying all along.

    It was the Israeli commandos who used violence first.

    The lies and disproportionate violence are hardly a surprise, of course. Indeed more of a leitmotif for Israel.

    http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/deported-flotilla-activists-claim-israelis-fired-first/19499900

  68. Perhaps it is time for those in suitable positions of responsibility in the European Union, NATO etc to admit to themselves and to others that international law itself is a cover for the US (or rather power brokers within the US) and its allies to punish others and protect itself and its friends.

    If international law and regional organisations are to have the consent and trust of the populations they are supposed to serve then both the EU and NATO need to be seen to draw a line in the sand and speak up.

    How many years has Israel been allowed to continue to defy ‘international law’ and use a weaker enemy as an excuse to continue to take to its bosom more territory and more aid (US, Germany etc) while its protectors rationalise the lack of any meaningful response by reference to confidence building measures?

    If Europe is really an emerging power (and not just a way of slowly removing power from national electorates and placing it further away) then it needs to re-evaluate Israel’s golden position as a non-member trading partner, it is the only leverage it has.

    Unfortunately the only democratic portion of the EU – MEPs have little power in and by themselves.

  69. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 3:03 pm

    “Norman G. Finkelstein is at it too:”

    Of course he is. He’s a Russia Today / Press TV favorite.

  70. ^ Well said Redders @ 1:23 PM.

    With regard to state media, read this article by Professor Richard Keeble, on how ‘Newspapers are the playthings of MI5′. Read further on about the (sshh, don’t mention it; blandly titled) UK IRD (Information Research Department) & the CIA ‘Operation Mockingbird’ operation to influence domestic and foreign media.

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/38zqu6t

  71. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 3:14 pm

    Bert, that’s a link to a conspiracy nutcase website with an article without any substantiation. To state the obvious – what bullshit.

  72. Larry,

    So who would your bastion of British journalistic integrity be?

    Con Coughlin of the telegraph? (see http://preview.tinyurl.com/35d46st

    )

    Whatever _DID_ happen to Daniel McGrory of the Times?

  73. I am from the United States and live in the Deep South. I have read several people inquiring about the public sentiment in the States. I like my fellow citizens grew up beleiving Israeli could do no wrong especially here in Christian Zionist country(the deep south). I guareentee you the county I live in with a population of 50,000 there are 2 people(me and my mom) that understand Israeli has veered off into delusional land dragging its puppet the U.S.A with it. It has taken me 5 years to convince my best friend who is intelligent and university educated 5 years to get him to start questioning the propaganda he has been feed his whole life concerning Israeli . He was so thougherly brainwashed by his Christian Zionist church. And he is one of the smarter ones, for the rest of my neighboors forget about it. I feel like I’m living in an open air cult. The Christian Zionists(the whole southeastern part of the United States, Confederacy) support Israeli because their scoffield preachers have convinced them Israeli can do no wrong and basically WWIII must happen to bring the Prince of Peace back. Truly psychotic and sickening. They know nothing of the King of Kings. Well, it’s hopeless for at least 70,000,000 million proclaimed christian zionists here in the states aka the Republican Party. Unfortunately the Democratic politicians are no better and we know why. As for our media forget about it. Nothing but propaganda. Is there any hope. Yes, finally the progressives of this country are starting to awaken the ones who voted in Obama no change puppet. At least we know who runs our foreign policy now. The awakening is also happening in the progressive blogospehere, with the most heartening thing to see is many young Jewish American writers are getting it and starting to make their voice heard. Where is our hope, the democratic base a.k.a. the Western part of my country and many mid atlantic and Northern states. Watch the deemocratic primary next Tuesday in California between Jane Israeli lobby Harmon and Winograd an American Jew calling Israeli out on its abhorrent policies. It is going to be a good measuring stick here in the states for the democratic party on the assumption it is a tamper free election.

  74. Echoes of fascism:

    Barak: In the Middle East, there is no mercy for the weak

  75. Brave post Craig, Bravo – How I love the inside track! – I’ve had some strange land-line calls though – I wonder why?

  76. mike cobley

    2 Jun, 2010 - 3:30 pm

    For interested observers, the link that Louis from St Larry refers to is at the July 7th Peoples Independent Inquiry Forum, and a post quoting from an article at the Medialens website. The article is entitled ‘Hacks And Spooks’ and is by Richard Keeble, professor of journalism at the University of Lincoln. I refrain from including html links since good ol’ Larr will undoubtedly open a can of conspiraloon on my ass.

  77. Talk of anti-Semitism overlooks that Arabs are also Semites so Israel’s apartheid policy against Gaza is anti-Semitic. At the time of Moses, the Egyptian upper class considered themselves the Chosen People. You will recall that the OT talks of the death of the first born during the plagues in Egypt. The Hebrew words for chosen and first-born are very similar. Finally, just as Bliar was the poodle of Bush, so the United States is the poodle of Israel. What does Israel know that the U.S. would rather the rest of the world doesn’t find out?

  78. Monty,

    Thanks for that interesting info and link. I’m trying to find out what Royal Navy ships are in the Med East of Malta. Idle gossip suggests a frigate has been diverted to the area?

  79. Conrad, as scary as your post is, thank you for that. I really imagined that the US population would be better informed. And I thought the good ole United of Kingdom was bad for propaganda, at least the BBC gives us a hint sometimes.

  80. Notice the stats from medialens.org – good article – extract:

    The BBC failed to mention that during the 2006 war Lebanon was subjected to 12,000 Israeli bombing raids, 2,500 navy shells, 100,000 army shells and 4.6 million cluster bombs. (Jane’s Defence Weekly, ‘The war in numbers,’ August 23, 2006 and http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/02/17/israel-s-use-cluster-bombs-shows-need-global-ban)

    Even prior to the December 27, 2008 Operation Cast Lead offensive – when Israel attacked Gaza with hundreds of bombing raids and drone attacks, and thousands of artillery and tank shells – 14 Israelis had been killed by mostly home-made rockets fired from Gaza over the previous seven years as against 5,000 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces. Some 1,400 Palestinians were massacred in the Cast Lead assault.

  81. http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060303_hacks_and_spooks.php

    The original link to Keeble’s essay.

    I think it’s quite uncontroversial that the security service used to try to influence the British media. It’s not hard to do: offer “exclusive” “insider info” to journalists that say what you want and gives the journo a good story. Then if the journo starts doing things you don’t like, threaten to cut off the “exclusive” tit bits.

    The controversial thing is whether this still happens. I don’t see why it would have happened in the Cold War but doesn’t happen know though. American media supposedly now have a code not to allow anonymity for sources unless there is clearly good reason for that anonymity precisely to make propaganda harder. This was adopted post Iraq War media bullshit.

    The most notorious case perhaps was ABC’s anonymously sourced allegations that the post-9/11 anthrax attacks were linked to Saddam.

  82. Oh, people like Melanie Philips I’m confident aren’t MI5 plants. They’re just bigots.

  83. One of the Canadians that was attacked by the Israeli hi-jackers gave an interview today on what he saw, and had said that everything the israeli government is saying about the attack is nothing but a pack of lies.

    Israel is good at forcing it’s hand, usually with the help of it’s collective media spin dryer, to make it’s word more important than the rest.

    Israel’s intentions were all too clear.

    The only problem was they didn’t have a chance to kill-off most of humanitarian’s and kidnap the other’s without being identified.

  84. Arghh I wish I could disengage from net debates, but I can’t. It’s probably the main reason why I don’t allow myself to engage with trolls such as larry.

    Zim:

    The ‘In the News’ section does not use single words, only combinations of 2 or more words. If it did count single words it would simply list words like ‘a’, ‘the’, ‘and’ etc. Or if these words disallowed it would be ‘economy’, ‘violence’ or ‘crime’. You see it is virtually impossible to make a useful algorithm for the news based on single words. That is why Gaza, Israel etc are not listed. It ain’t a grand conspiracy as far as I can tell. Also it doesn’t explain why their ‘censorship’ would place the story they are censoring in the most prominent position but delete it from a less visible place.

    Nameless:

    The wiki link you posted has no reference to Israel, let alone to Sergey Brin attending celebrations for the founding of Israel. Regardless, it is a long bow to draw to say that because one man attended the celebrations, the entire company is censoring this story.

    I don’t think google is some magically pure company, when I use google search I always do so with google’s scripts and cookies blocked. However in terms of openness and freedom of information google ranks much higher than virtually any other tech company. Much more dangerous than any ‘censorship’ google takes part in, is the potential for massive data-mining.

  85. Best of luck to Marci Winograd in the California Democratic primary, but I will not be holding my breath. I gather it is almost impossible to get elected to anything in the US unless endorsed by AIPAC. The Zionist lobby likes to own *all* the candidates.

    Here in the UK it is a bit more subtle but essentially the same. Any candidate who is a “Friend of Israel” will magically get lots of campaign contributions from strangers.

  86. Regarding Richard Keeble, I haven’t read that link but he is likely to be the same person who wrote a guest alert for Media Lens some while back. I remember it being so good – drawing from a number of current activist sources – that I wrote a note to the editors to pat them on the back. I’ve included the link here if anyone wishes to read.

    He doesn’t sound like a conspiracy theorist to me.

  87. PS, I’ve reposted this post over at Indymedia UK – I think it is well worth spreading widely.

  88. Conrad,

    I sympathise with you – the source is American ‘behaviour conditioning’ television – shut down the source.

  89. Craig

    The reports of demoralisation at NATO HQ in the wake of the Israeli attack on the Turkish flagged vessel in the Eastern Med aren’t surprising. A couple of weeks ago the FT published a sneering article by the CFR President, Richard Haass, essentially saying that post WW11 ‘Euro Atlantic structures’ have had their day.

    He concluded thus-

    ‘The combination of structural economic flaws, political parochialism and military limits will accelerate this transatlantic drift. A weaker Europe will possess a smaller voice and role. Nato will no longer be the default partner for American foreign policy. Instead, the US will forge coalitions of the willing to deal with specific challenges. These clusters will sometimes include European countries, but rarely, if ever, will the US look to either Nato or the EU as a whole.’

    What is surprising however is that the Yanks, in showing such partiality to the Israelis over the latest incident, seem to be precluding Turkey’s participation in any ‘coalition of the willing’ it may try to cobble together in the near future. Perhaps they think the likes of Georgia & Romania will take up the slack instead- and if that is the case, it shows it isn’t just the Israelis who are losing their marbles.

  90. Interview with one of the Israeli MPs who was onboard the fotilla. She seems to reckon that the Isralies shot first even before boarding the boat.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1sH_RE4CY0&feature=player_embedded

  91. I think Canada is siding with Israel as well. But don’t spend any time thinking of us, we are inconsequential.

  92. ‘Regarding Richard Keeble, I haven’t read that link but he is likely to be the same person who wrote a guest alert for Media Lens some while back. I remember it being so good – drawing from a number of current activist sources – that I wrote a note to the editors to pat them on the back. I’ve included the link here if anyone wishes to read.

    He doesn’t sound like a conspiracy theorist to me.’

    Jon- I agree, but if you mention ‘Church Committee’ or ‘Operation Mockingbird’ to the likes of shitface Larry he extrudes his ‘conspiraloon’ accusations on cue like a clockwork toy.

  93. Is its NATO commitment more important to the US than its commitment to Israel or vice versa?

  94. In line with other posters I too have noticed that the story is now dead in the MSM. The Independent have had no comment section at all on this story. The Mail allowed criticism the first day, after which it has been all pro-Israeli propoganda.

    I’m not surprised…

  95. Conrad – thank you for that fascinating post from heart of the Deep South! Keep sane and stay strong! Good on you.

  96. It may be unkind to say this, but why do you folks keep whimpering on?

    It’s obvious. Jews rule and there’s really nothing you can do about it.

    Look at the fuckers outside the Turkish embassy in Tel Aviv, howling with glee at the murder of those terrorists armed with food parcels.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

    Some people would distinguish between Jews and Zionists. I understand the impulse. The Jews you probably know are nice people. People you like. People you trust. But they are the deluded little Jews whose childhood religious indoctrination overwhelms any capacity for analytical thought: for if they were to read the Torah with a critical mind they would see that Judaism is a deeply racist religion and the theological basis of Zionism. Jews who don’t wish to be associated with Zionism should find another religion.

    So I am sorry, but it is Jews who rule, although it is the Zionists who run the project, which works as follows.

    The same Zionist power brokers control both Israel and the United States. The United States dominates Nato, Nato determines European foreign policy. Simple, isn’t it: no extraterrestrial reptiles.

    In this connection, it is interesting to note the efforts to distract attention from Obarmy’s subservience to Israel by pretending he and his controller, Rahm Emmanuel, are somehow anti-Semitic and even responsible for the recent outbreak of Zionist mass murder on the high seas. (See the NY Post, I cannot include the link, the software chokes if there is more than one link in a post.) But as Hitler noted, any lie will be believed if it is big enough.

  97. But Alfred, one could say similar things about almost all religions (though focused differently). It’s like saying that ‘all Muslims/ Christians/ Hindus, etc.’ are responsible for such-and-such actions because of such-and-such text in their holy books. With respect, it’s far too simplistic an analysis. This is not to deny the very real impact of religious extremism on contemporary geo-politics, as ‘Conrad’ has just outlined in relation to the ‘Deep South’, for example.

  98. Yeah, Syhayl,

    you could say the same about all religions because that is their adaptive function. Adaptation is all about racism. Its about propagating your own genes and suppressing the propagation of the genes of others. The Jews just had that point clearly in mind as they developed their ideology: like the Nazis.

    Anyway, here’s to the NY Post article in which the Zionists blame Obarmy for the relief ship murders.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/anti_israel_sharks_sniff_weakness_n5AbqK6bk6NHcy6qEWK5jJ#ixzz0phPKSy8o

  99. Here’s Obarmy confirming total subservience to the Zionist interest.

    ‘Regardless of the details of the flotilla incident, sources say President Obama is focused on what he sees as the longer term issue here: a successful Mideast peace process.

    “The president has always said that it will be much easier for Israel to make peace if it feels secure,” a senior administration official tells ABC News.’

    ‘The suggestion is that US condemnation of Israel would further isolate that country, and make further peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians even more difficult.’

    Translation: we cannot have a peace process if Israel is denied the right to murder at will. Stopping them only makes them feel insecure.’

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/anti_israel_sharks_sniff_weakness_n5AbqK6bk6NHcy6qEWK5jJ#ixzz0phPKSy8o

  100. Alfred,

    maybe you are being nasty, or trying to be controversial, or perhaps trying to start a flame war. Please desist. Your sensible input is valuable.

  101. The pariah state of Israhell could be brought to account immediately if the jewsa stopped paying that “shitty little country” (as one ambassador rightly called it..) $700 billion (not million)per year. But the jews control US politics & politicians as the sharon quote states on Rense.com. (It’s rumoured that JFK refused to bow to them & was assassinated for it.) The truth is that if any other country behaved like israel it would be spurned politically & diplomatically. But the US supports israel & so gets away with it. The US presidents have a lot to answer for. The only consolation is that God said: VENGEANCE IS MINE….

  102. Alfred:

    The US routinely excuses the crimes of it’s allies. By your logic the US is also subservient to the Kosovars and Colombians.

  103. Dear Craig:

    thank you, for a fascinating, informative and unbiased article.

    I also hope that Turkey and NATO ratchet up the criticism and reaction to Israel.

    At some point, it must be made clear that this was a highly provocative action against a nation, and they deserve more of a response than the “activists” attacked our soldiers, and we were forced to defend ourselves.

  104. Clark,

    If it seems, by my first sentence, that I have been rude to everyone, I offer humble apologies. I think Craig’s statement is excellent.

    Otherwise, I take back nothing.

    There are some extremely disquieting features about Israel’s latest atrocity that have not been addressed.

    Why, for example, do Israelis cheer mass murder? Is it mere blood thirstyness? Were even the Nazi’s so insane? Or is it more sinister than that? Is it their way of reminding us who rules and of instilling appropriate fear?

    Here’s another interesting link:

    Obarmy promising to enhance Israel’s strategic capabilities.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-promised-to-bolster-israel-s-strategic-capabilities-jerusalem-officials-say-1.293086

  105. You are right Woobus thank-you – Haneen Zuabi an Israeli politician confirmed that two Israeli craft were firing automatic weapons before the Israeli commandos landed on the convoy ship Mavi Marmara.

    The satellite link was destroyed and journalist told not to use their cam recorders. Video cameras were seized by the commandos.

    List of British citizens on Mavi Marmara where the Israeli raid took place and 19 of the passengers killed: Laura Macdonald Stuart, Ebrahim Musaji, Jamal Sayed, PARVEEN YAQUB, Baboo ADEM Zanghar, Ahsan Shamruk, Mustafa Cengiz Ahmet, Tauqir Sharif, BOUDJEMA BOUNOUA,

    Mohammad BOUNOUA, Sakir Yildirim, Kenneth O’Keefe, Ali El-Awaisi, Mohammed Bhaiyat, Lort Phillips Alexandra Mary, Sarah Nancy Colborne, Ismail Adam Patel, Nader Daher, Mahi Mohammed Abid,

    Nur-E-Azom Choudhury, Ovenden Kevin, Peter Venner, Clifford Gardner Hanley, Muzzammil Layth Chogley, Jamaluddin Mohammad Farid Elshayyal, Hassan Al Banna Ghani, Lazrag Salah, Ali Altan.

  106. Stephen Hero

    2 Jun, 2010 - 6:53 pm

    Mr Murray,

    Excellent articles over the last few days. Invaluable for those of us attempting to counter the deluge of lies and misinformation.

    However, is it possible for you to ban the anti-semitic scumbags polluting the comments sections of various articles and delete their racist nonsense?

  107. “The US routinely excuses the crimes of it’s allies. By your logic the US is also subservient to the Kosovars and Colombians.”

    Rubbish. The US excuses crimes that suit its purpose. Having Kosovars murder Serbs suited their purpose.

    The US has no compunction about condemning actions they disapprove of.

    They, in effect, overthrew the British Government and terminated the British Empire in 1956, when they refused to support the Anglo-French invasion of Egypt.

  108. This matter will fade as news outlets cut real coverage and replace with propaganda. Spoken words without evidence. Confusing people and wearing them out with all sorts of nonsense until they switch off and find another story. We, the people are in a right mess.

  109. If the US does nothing then NATO has no purpose. I expect that soon nations, including NATO members will form NATO-like alliances to defend themselves against US/Israel.

  110. The Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt. And that was really that last time the USA opposed Israel in any significant way. Actually, I agree that the position is Israel in relation to US ruling structures is qualitatively different from that of any other state. The USA even allows Israel to spy on it, unpunished and indeed abetted. The ‘old ruling class’ in the USA has no power against the pro-Israel lobby, which has a stranglehold on all politicians in the USA. This is the fundamental imperial deformation that absolutely needs to be addressed.

  111. “Why, for example, do Israelis cheer mass murder? Is it mere blood thirstyness? Were even the Nazi’s so insane? Or is it more sinister than that?”

    Same reasons there were some protestants who cheered for a nutter throwing hand grenades at one funeral, and some catholics who cheered the torture and murder of secret police at another.. and westerners today cheering fox news live strike videos, and some groups even cheered the trade towers attack.

    Religion can be be a common factor, but more common factors are bitterness, fear, anger, ignorance, loyalty. Focusing on the confused religiousity involved doesn’t help resolve the conflict it enflames it Alfred.

  112. “This matter will fade as news outlets cut real coverage and replace with propaganda.”

    Exactly.

    But here’s a nice vid of Glen Greenwald giving brothel-going Israel apologist Eliot Spitzer a kick in the balls, as he tries to spin the relief ship murders.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/58958.html

  113. ~Sucking air in through my teeth~

    Gosh, Alfred makes some compelling, if a little belligerent sense.

    I cant deny I have thought a lot of what he has been saying, the US government is, or at least the last time I looked years ago, riddled (hopefully in the nicest sense) with people with Jewish ancestors, at least that’s what their names would suggest. But then in a room full of Kaufman’s I guess the majority of them would be practising Jews. Would that mean they would be sympathetic to their former community than to global justice? perhaps that will become evident over the next few weeks.

    Alfred has a point, just a bit too forceful I suspect.

  114. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 7:32 pm

    “But here’s a nice vid of Glen Greenwald giving brothel-going Israel apologist Eliot Spitzer a kick in the balls, as he tries to spin the relief ship murders.”

    If the people who are manipulating you were truthful, they would show you Spitzer similarly grilling someone who supports Israel’s actions. Just that happened in the same hour of that program.

  115. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 7:34 pm

    But thank you for linking to lewrockwell.com. Just about as crazy as linking to infowars.com.

    Why the axis of stupidity between the British Left and the American Right?

  116. And can I also say how much I admire Suhayl Saadi’s balanced opinions on a very difficult subject. I haven’t yet read his blog, I’m off to do it now………you never know I might change my mind:)

  117. @ Craig,

    Unlike you I do not have a diplomat’s background, merely almost 30 years of practice at my profession as a lawyer.

    Despite my limitations, I bring my life’s experiences forward to answer your question:-

    “Therefore what is troubling the hearts and souls of non-Americans in NATO HQ is this fundamental question. Is NATO genuinely a mutual defence organisation, or is it just an instrument to carry out US foreign policy?”

    My answer – the latter.

  118. “Suhayl Saadi is a novelist and stage and radio dramatist based in Glasgow.”

    Didn’t get any further, says it all really. If there is one place in the world where opinion polarisation and the rabid desire for justice co exist in complete harmony its my old home town.

    I’ll look you up for a wee dram next time I’m up Suhayl.

  119. Thanks Conrad, good to hear from you.

    Should be most grateful to hear from you as to what these “Christian Zionists” make of the Ten Commandments, especially that “thou shall not kill, thou shall not bear false witness,” and that one should love thy neighbour as thyself” The tumultuous slaughter and deceit emanating from the U.S. would seem to be in cotradiction to the Bible.

  120. Courtenay,

    I don’t mean to be rude but it’s lawyers in government that has got us into this situation; do you ever balance your desire, and requirement to represent your client against justice. And I say that from a criminal law perspective, which may not be appropriate to you, but I have spent more times on a witness stand giving evidence for the prosecution, examined by lawyers for the defence who are on a hiding to nothing but persist in flogging a dead horse than I care to remember. No wonder a popular perception of lawyers is as money grabbers.

  121. No wonder a popular perception (or misconception) of lawyers is as money grabbers.

  122. ‘Is NATO genuinely a mutual defence organisation, or is it just an instrument to carry out US foreign policy?”

    My answer – the latter.’

    Not so.

    Both Israel and the US are controlled by the same plutocratic Zionist power brokers, some of them not even Jews, none of whom give a damn about democracy or free society.

    So when referring to the instruments of domination employed by these bastards, we should refer not to Israel or the US but to USIsrael.

    On this Paul Craig Roberts, former Deputy Secretary of the US Treasury is wrong in calling the US a puppet of Israel.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4sM323793A&feature=related

    USIsrael is, for political purposes, one entity. To restore the republic, the US would have to undergo a new revolution.

  123. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 8:12 pm

    “On this Paul Craig Roberts, former Deputy Secretary of the US Treasury is wrong in calling the US a puppet of Israel.”

    Mr. Roberts is someone who went loony. But maybe he’s always been loony. For instance, he believes that 911 was an inside job.

    Do you ever wonder why the people who you rely on to support your arguments also believe that 911 was an inside job?

  124. ih8zionists

    2 Jun, 2010 - 8:17 pm

    every single aspect of your life is controlled by the evil zionist jews. its not jews but zionist jews who are at war with jews,christians and muslims.im glad most of the people are finally waking up n realizing that all this terrorism is bullshit. im starting to think that the terrorists are fighting for our freedoms now, since we cant fight them here. it takes balls the size of watermelons to fight these assholes with the weapons they have made and mastered.

  125. “The tumultuous slaughter and deceit emanating from the U.S. would seem to be in cotradiction to the Bible.”

    Have you not read the Book of Joshua? It’s a very explicit endorsement of genocide.

    There was a settler Rabbi who said the Ten Commandments (actually there were two sets, one on each tablet) only applied between Jews. That is a defensible position.

    The Torah is shared by Judaism and Christianity and it should be obvious that people are wilfully ignorant of the bits that they don’t like. You can’t judge someone’s morality by their religion.

    I don’t know how the Koran treats this story. It can’t be any worse than the Biblical version.

    /end obvious atheist rant

  126. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 8:24 pm

    ih8zionists, you pretty much sum up the level of decency and coherence at this blog.

  127. Larry,

    Can you not for a moment refrain from bringing up 9/11, a subject on which you seem to adhere to some loony conspiracy theory about 19 Muslims.

  128. The US has not bombed Iran yet. Therefore Israel does not control the US, and there is not one entity controlling both.

    We’ve already had a commentator point out the strong Christian Zionist element of what Mearsheimer and Walt call the “Israel Lobby” (I’d rather call it the Zionist Lobby, or perhaps the Israel Uber Alles Lobby). No doubt the arms lobby (the “military industrial complex” as Eisenhower called it) also likes the current arrangement with massive US arms subsidies to Israel and permanent Israeli conflict.

    Famously there is much more criticism of Israel in Israel than there is in the US.

    Can we cut the Global Jewish Conspiracy crap now please? Craig deserves better on his blog.

  129. ” You can’t judge someone’s morality by their religion.”

    True, thank god, or does the old bastard deserve a capital G.

    But religion is a very handy justification for genocide when one is need by the ruling elite, which is why, if we are going to live in a harmonious international community, we need to put aside toxic beliefs such as those propagated by the Torah/Old Testament, and another holy book I will not mention for fear of having my head severed from my body by a fanatic intent on his share of virgins.

    Alternatively, we should frankly acknowledge that racism is the basis of our core beliefs and get on with Amageddon, or whatever it is that we’re coming up for now.

    I see the Turks are preparing for war:

    http://www.aysor.am/en/news/2010/06/02/turkey-israel-war/

  130. Speaking of Walt, here he writes on conspiracy theories:

    http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/26/on_conspiracy_theories

  131. “The US has not bombed Iran yet. Therefore Israel does not control the US, and there is not one entity controlling both.”

    What’s the logic here? You think they don’t have to soften up the world before they commit nuclear genocide – if that’s what they intend?

    Or you think brinkmanship is no longer employed in international maneuvering?

    And who talked about a Global Jewish Conspiracy? What are you talking about.

  132. “religion is a very handy justification for genocide”

    I don’t believe it’s the core reason. In-group/ out-group dynamics are, at the extreme of which members of the out-group become dehumanised.

    Religion is one of the most powerful means of establishing in-groups and out-groups though along with ethnicity and language. The three often go together. Curiously some on the right have invented “Judeo-Christianity” to predicate their in-group, arbitrarily excluding Muslims (and often atheists like me – I’m looking at you Mad Mel Philips).

  133. Clearly there is daylight between the US and Israel on Iran. The US military is widely believed to be opposed to any attack, which is why Bush didn’t bomb. Petraeus recently linked US support to Israel to the dangers facing American soldiers.

    It’s possible that the difference is merely a public ruse, but there is absolutely no evidence of that and the simplest explanation to explain public differences is private differences.

    One group running both the US and Israel is unsupportable conspiracy theorist bullshit.

  134. http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/02/defending_the_indefensible_a_how_to_guide

    Walt’s latest is a satirical description of state apologetics, using this incident as a springboard.

  135. @Craig

    During your time at the FCO, did you ever come across the US’s contingency plans regarding mass evacuations of Israelis via Ashdod, Eilat, Hadera, and Haifa?

  136. great comments.

    Alfred’s were a little acidic, however, nowhere in my study of all world religions can I find one which has written text describing the boiling of jesus in hot excrement five times a day in hell, as does judaism.

    No-where else, can I find a ‘faith’ who’s true documents reveal, in reality, a cover for organized crime going back centuries.

    Of course ‘adherents’ are against truth, against justice, and do everything possible to infiltrate organizations so they have pro-criminal doctrines.

    I have family members who fled the pogroms of the late 1800′s on europe. So I know you; you are possessed and for that, I pray for you. I do my white wizardry that the disembodied entities possessing you, leave this planet – forever. Do not dare to think you can use your useless slander against me, or that it has any effect what-so-ever.

    Judaism is not ‘a people’, it is not ‘a religion’, and it is certainly not ‘a race’. It is an ideology; however neither pure, nor simple.

    NaZi – learn about europe and languages. Combined political parties are nothing new. The nationasocialists, the NSDPA, the Na in NaZi, joined with the Zionists, who seemed to have a common interest in removing the jews from europe. The jews who had no issues with the gentile population, and didn’t want to move to the desert, they were left for dead in poorly-supplied labor camps. Poorly supplied because the people orchestrating the war, made sure supply routes and civilian production were bombed, causing the occupants to die from typhus and related complications (starvation). 700,000 max ‘jews’ and ‘half-jews’ died in all of WW2 – deal with it. The dead were jews who did not want to move to a new ghetto planned for them by the ‘head of the snake’, and who were happy and comfortable on europe.

    *Legal*, not lawful, definition of ‘Holocaust Survivors (TM)’: needed to be was on europe somewhere, after about 1932. They could have left with all of their possessions and money intact.

    In short, the nationalists lost (look at the story of ‘Rudolf Hess’, flew unarmed to scottland in a last-ditch attempt to avert war, spent 30+ years in Spandau Prison at the behest of these criminals) -

    and the Zionists won, bringing surplus superior german war technology down to palestine, to defeat millions of arabs, who had WW1-era bolt-action rifles.

    No one is a victim!

  137. Redders – hey, thanks I’ll take you up on that! Definitely! It was also very well put about Glasgow.

  138. “One group running both the US and Israel is unsupportable conspiracy theorist bullshit.”

    Unsupportable?

    Have you ever seen the US media demand that the US adopt a position seriously at odds with Israeli interests? If so, give us some examples.

    Have you ever seen the the US Congress seriously at odds with Israel on any issue of significance? If so, give us some examples.

    Have you ever seen the the US President seriously at odds with Israel on any issue of significance? If so, give us some examples.

  139. “I see the Turks are preparing for war:”

    Alfred,

    you should worry, I met a delightful and peaceful old woman 10 years or so now, a guest of Hitler in Auschwitz. She told me and other guests at a party that she had been given the gift of being able to see certain things and told me she could see my guardian angel. He was always with me and behind me all the time, he is, evidently, a Turk, brandishing a scimitar, mounted on a white stallion.

    I am an atheist but I believe there is something more than just the over simplification of ‘a bearded Man in the clouds’ (Ricky Gervais movie, the man who told the first lie [or something like that]) and I take some comfort in the possibility this old lady was right.

    Incidentally, she wasn’t a guest, she was a waitress and at 70+ years old a peaceful and positive lady who is/would have abhorred Israel’s conduct now.

  140. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 9:18 pm

    And now a word from the Holocaust deniers! Tell us more, commentitus!

    (Suhayl, did commentitus likewise provide us with a fascinating post?)

  141. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 9:25 pm

    Alfred, what I do understand is that in your conspiracy-theory mind (like all anti-Jew conspiracy-theory minds), because the U.S. does not oppose Israeli policies as much as the Muslims and the European Left, it must be that the JOOOS control the U.S.

    I just can’t imagine that you ever studied logic and really learned the lessons.

  142. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 9:28 pm

    Most stupid comment on the thread (in a strong field):

    Suhayl Saadi: “The USA even allows Israel to spy on it, unpunished and indeed abetted”

    I’m sure Jonathan Pollard will be pleased to hear that.

  143. Suhayl

    Just a miserable old ex coppers opinion, I loved the public but hated the Police regime.

    I guess that’s why I value justice so much, it supersedes everything; and Britain still has the best justice system in the world, despite it’s weaknesses. The public gallery in a court is a great place in a good trial but even better is ‘guarding’ the accused in the High Court when he says things to the coppers sitting beside him he wouldn’t even tell his lawyer. Then you know if he’s truly guilty or not and your judgement rarely differs from the jury’s.

  144. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 9:38 pm

    And I think everyone needs to keep in mind that the U.S. was never as infected with the disease of anti-Semitism (or anti-Jewish hatred, if you prefer) as was the case in Europe.

    By the way, I do a fair amount of related reading, and I’m still waiting to read a Jew exploiting the Holocaust as a reason to justify Israel’s existence or policies. I think you people are simply given to exaggeration.

  145. Larry from St. Louis

    Does somebody need a hug?

  146. Larry,

    Let’s get one fact straight. I never talk of JOOOOS. Got it?

    Let’s get another fact straight. I never said Jews controls the United States.

    What I did say was that the same power brokers control both Israel and the United States.

    I specifically stated that Paul Craig Roberts was in error to say that Israel controls the US. This is a silly notion. Is it likely that a piddling middle east state with a GDP less than that of New Jersey could control the United States contrary to the wishes of the American ruling elite?

    Obviously, not. The only way that there can be the appearance of Israeli control of the US is if the US and Israel are controlled by the same group, who as I have already pointed out are not all Jews and of whom the majority are not Israelis. Vice President Biden, for example: “you don’t have to be Jewish to be a Zionist.”

    Finally, I have said nothing here that is “anti-Jew” (is the charge of anti-Semitism losing its bite?).

    I have criticized those Jews who support Israeli crimes as a matter of racial solidarity. That is not anti-Semitism. It is a statement of a moral judgment with which I believe many (ethnic, or anthropogenic, and even religious) Jews, would agree.

    And I am no more of a conspiracy theorist than you with your unsubstantiated belief about 19 Muslims.

    But go on. Hack away at your assigned task of deriding and dismissing anything that contradicts the imperial mission of USIsrael. It is of no significance, as surely no one takes you seriously.

  147. >the U.S. was never as infected with the disease of anti-Semitism…

    No, they were far too busy committing genocide and land grab against indigenous tribes and later lynching blacks.

  148. Heh – a dozen posts from “wide-stance” Larry, including a 3-star “larry alert” above (where you find consecutive posts all by the same author) – must mean the Israelis haven’t got a leg to stand on. I’m surprised they don’t find more competent apologists, though.

    Alfred – you don’t actually think you can have a conversation with a slippery, discreditable liar like him, do you?

  149. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 10:15 pm

    “And I am no more of a conspiracy theorist than you with your unsubstantiated belief about 19 Muslims.”

    So do you believe that the Jews did it, or was it George Bush and Dick Cheney and super-secret thermite paint?

  150. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 10:17 pm

    What the hell is wrong with Britain that you people can’t seem to think cogently? Is it the religious schooling? Is it being told by the State about Abraham and Jesus and all that?

  151. “amazingly arrogant – (The USA) don’t seem to think it matters what anybody else thinks”.

    It doesn’t.

  152. I never had any Doubt that Excellency Craig Murray belongs to the class of great Humanist. Yes he is 100% right. Can democratic value survive when people, societies, and governments do not care about the legality, ethics, public opinion? Can an Empire survive if it is not just in its international relations?

    Can wrong be stronger than the right?

    Many empires and civilizations have faded into the history and thus the system will keep on working. Israel already thing of the past and has only its nuisance value. The state is bound to fail. Because truth and right is always stronger than the Wrong and Lies.

    I have shifted to Afghanistan and now have already started working for the welfare of the Afghan nation.

  153. What is needed most is support for those Jews like Norman Finkelstein, who are willing to speak the truth. To often whimpish European Governments leave those within the Jewish community who are incensed by the behavior of the Israelis and Zionists out on a limb.

  154. Redders, your blog is really fascinating – your life-story and all, I’ll check out more later. It’s a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

    Yes, Glenn, I agree, the desperation is clear for everyone to see.

  155. Alfred:

    Obama wanted a freeze on Israeli building in Jerusalem. Netanyahu announced new building when Biden was visiting: that is a diplomatic slight. Obama responded (weakly) by slighting Bibi on the latter’s visit.

    I’ve already said there’s a difference on Iran.

    Even if US and Israeli foreign policy were literally indistinguishable (domestic policy is VERY distinguishable – Israel has state health care) that still wouldn’t be evidence that they are run by the same group. That would be a bizarre arrangement, unprecedented in world history and there is no mechanism for it. Exceptional ideas require exceptional evidence.

    We already know why the US is so close to Israel:

    1. Jewish American Zionist lobbyists

    2. Christian Zionist lobbyists

    3. Military industrial complex

    4. Post Cold War inertia: Israel used to be an actual US asset

    5. In-group bias: Israel is culturally much more like the US than its Islamic neighbours

    6. The propaganda efficacy of the “Jews are always the victims” narrative based on centuries of persecution ending with the Holocaust, and the efficacy of screaming “anti-Semite!” at anyone who criticises a Jew.

    There is no need to imagine an invisible hand. Remember Occam’s Razor?

    You wrote this in your first post:

    “Some people would distinguish between Jews and Zionists … Jews who don’t wish to be associated with Zionism should find another religion.

    So I am sorry, but it is Jews who rule, although it is the Zionists who run the project, which works as follows.

    The same Zionist power brokers control both Israel and the United States.”

    So yes, you DID say Jews run the US and Israel.

  156. Larry:

    “I do a fair amount of related reading, and I’m still waiting to read a Jew exploiting the Holocaust as a reason to justify Israel’s existence or policies”

    Anyone who screams “anti-Semite!” at any and all critics of Israel is exploiting the Holocaust. And that happens a lot. Even Jews like Finkelstein and Chomsky get that treatment.

  157. Hey Suhayl Saadi & Redderes, the dear green place is my home town too, but now I live in Engerland, well sort of – Scouseland.

    This blog is a great net meeting place.

    Good on yer, Craig…….

  158. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 11:35 pm

    “Anyone who screams “anti-Semite!” at any and all critics of Israel is exploiting the Holocaust.”

    And when the fuck does that happen?

    It’s more like this:

    British left-wing nut / American right-wing nut: “The Jews did 911″

    Me: “That’s just plain anti-Semitic”

    Nut: “You see! You can’t criticize Israel without being called anti-Semitic!”

    There are some very hateful things written at this blog about Jews and Israel. That’s a bit different from the extremely legitimate criticism of Israel that one encounters in places other than this blog.

  159. “Is NATO genuinely a mutual defence organisation, or is it just an instrument to carry out US foreign policy?”

    Clearly it is not a mutual defence organisation as its principle activity is offence. It is worth noting that NATO has not only been an instrument of US foreign policy but also of US domestic policy – Clinton found it useful to start a war to boost his electoral prospects at home.

  160. Back to NATO, here’s an interesting piece;

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19360

  161. Larry,

    Which other blogs do you inhabit?….

    Please enlighten us to your net presence? (I never understood why you hang around here, what with all the stuff that agravates you so much…………)

  162. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Jun, 2010 - 11:50 pm

    Just keeping track here, so far in the past 24 hours we’ve had links from this blog to:

    lewrockwell.com

    infowars.com

    globalresearch.ca

    You people are just crazy.

  163. Larry from St. Louis

    you do know that ahmedinejad didnt say that iran does not have homosexuals but said that iran doesnt have homosexuals as they are in the usa.

  164. israel acting as a rogue state makes it somewhat easier to attack iran .

    the usa timetable is on track with 150000 forces (300 000 if one includes the mercenaries) and sanctions by june 21st.

    the bbc yesterday was despreately linking the peace flotilla and the israeli reaction as the fault of iran.

    the only game in town is iran, their minds have been made up .. just listen to cameron, hague and fox ..

  165. “So do you believe that the Jews did it, or was it George Bush and Dick Cheney and super-secret thermite paint?”

    do you think it really is plausible that one could fly and make a pin point hit flying a 757 with a few months training on a flight simulator.

    i dont know who did it, i only know of the claims/allegations

  166. Larry:

    “”Anyone who screams “anti-Semite!” at any and all critics of Israel is exploiting the Holocaust.”

    And when the fuck does that happen?”

    You’re kidding, right? Richard Goldstein’s report was denounced as “anti-Semitic” in Congress.

    “British left-wing nut / American right-wing nut”

    A (literally) one-dimensional spectrum of political opinion is never going to accurately model the full real-world range of political views.

  167. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 12:09 am

    “you do know that ahmedinejad didnt say that iran does not have homosexuals but said that iran doesnt have homosexuals as they are in the usa.”

    Wow Wendy – that makes perfect sense, doesn’t it!

  168. Larry from St Loony

    What do you know about USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair?

  169. @ Redders,

    I fully understand your question:-

    ” do you ever balance your desire, and requirement to represent your client against justice.”

    I have done a significant amount of criminal defence work and also commercial, constitutional and human rights issues. I have a matter presently before the European Court of Human Rights. Next Monday I start a 10 day trial involving the police fatal shooting of a sixteen year old boy.

    Now to your question. The law and justice are not the same thing. The legal system operatThe general theory is that the justice system is designed to dispense justice. Nowhere in the world does this obtain 100%, but the aspiration is that justice triumphs more often than it does not.

    As regards personal representation:-

    A. You give me an account of what happended.

    B. I respond with a legal assessment, and tell you your best options if we go to trial.

    C. Once I accept the brief, I am bound by my instructions, and do the absolute best I can for my client within those confines.

    The standard question asked of me is if I would defend someone if I knew that he was guilty:-

    i) If he does confirm guilt, then my duty is to advise him to enter a “guilty” plea; or

    ii) If he denies guilt and has a good arguable defence, then my duty is to defend to the best of my ability.

    To be quite frank, I don’t know if you are guilty – I was not there when the alleged crime was committed. I may believe or suspect something, but I do not ultimately truly know. I have found even an innocent person lie on themself. My profession exposes one to many facets of human nature.

    So far as the lawyers who are politicos, that is true the world over. I have never desired to be elected to high office.

    As for this:-

    ” …giving evidence for the prosecution, examined by lawyers for the defence who are on a hiding to nothing but persist in flogging a dead horse than I care to remember. No wonder a popular perception of lawyers is as money grabbers.”

    I set out to be structred, puroseful and directed in my cross-examinations. I do not badger witnesses, nor do I seek to lose the Judge or Jury. You are not referring to me here. I have done so much pro bono work over the years, I have lost count. There is even an piece in the Times on me when my life was again threatened a couple years ago.

    If you want to know what I think about the law, you can read my book ( see web site) – and Lord Denning gave a favourable review.

    Within the context I have explained, then :-

    ” do you ever balance your desire, and requirement to represent your client against justice.”?

    Not in the perfect way that you would like and prefer me to. But, I do conscionable things at times.

    In short – not all lawyers are money grabbers.

  170. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 12:12 am

    “You’re kidding, right? Richard Goldstein’s report was denounced as “anti-Semitic” in Congress.”

    What are you talking about?

  171. *Richard Goldstone’s report

    Oops

  172. Sorry – here is the edited version:-

    @ Redders,

    I fully understand your question:-

    ” do you ever balance your desire, and requirement to represent your client against justice.”

    I have done a significant amount of criminal defence work and also commercial, constitutional and human rights issues. I have a matter presently before the European Court of Human Rights. Next Monday I start a 10 day trial involving the police fatal shooting of a sixteen year old boy.

    Now to your question. The law and justice are not the same thing. The legal system operates upon the general theory that the justice system is designed to dispense justice. Nowhere in the world does this obtain 100%, but the aspiration is that justice triumphs more often than it does not.

    As regards personal representation:-

    A. You give me an account of what happened.

    B. I respond with a legal assessment, and tell you your best options if we go to trial.

    C. Once I accept the brief, I am bound by my instructions, and do the absolute best I can for my client within those confines.

    The standard question asked of me is if I would defend someone if I knew that he was guilty:-

    i) If he does confirm guilt, then my duty is to advise him to enter a “guilty” plea; or

    ii) If he denies guilt and has a good arguable defence, then my duty is to defend to the best of my ability.

    To be quite frank, I don’t know if you are guilty – I was not there when the alleged crime was committed. I may believe or suspect something, but I do not ultimately truly know. I have found even an innocent person lie on himself. My profession exposes one to many facets of human nature.

    So far as the lawyers who are politicos, that is true the world over. I have never desired to be elected to high office.

    As for this:-

    ” …giving evidence for the prosecution, examined by lawyers for the defence who are on a hiding to nothing but persist in flogging a dead horse than I care to remember. No wonder a popular perception of lawyers is as money grabbers.”

    I set out to be structured, purposeful and directed in my cross-examinations. I do not badger witnesses, nor do I seek to lose the Judge or Jury. You are not referring to me here. I have done so much pro bono work over the years, I have lost count. There is even a piece in the Times on me when my life was again threatened a couple years ago.

    If you want to know what I think about the law, you can read my book ( see web site) – and Lord Denning gave a favourable review.

    Within the context I have explained, then :-

    ” do you ever balance your desire, and requirement to represent your client against justice.”?

    Not in the perfect way that you would like and prefer me to. But, I do conscionable things at times.

    In short – not all lawyers are money grabbers.

  173. http://www.haaretz.com/news/finance-minister-un-backing-of-goldstone-report-is-anti-semitic-1.5909

    Israeli finance minister attacks Goldstone report as “anti-Semitic”.

  174. Larry: “Just keeping track here…”

    I thought as much

    Answer me this, Larry, are there ‘provocateurs’ hanging around in the sorta blogs that you should inhabit (whatever these blogs are, you are yet to tell us), de-railing rational debate/discussion/dialogue?

    We KNOW that there is a massive army of blog followers/distractors employed by Rendon & suchlike

  175. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 12:33 am

    “do you think it really is plausible that one could fly and make a pin point hit flying a 757 with a few months training on a flight simulator.”

    So are you saying it’s possible that a computer guided the planes in?

    Alternatively, do you believe that loyal members of the U.S. Armed Forces committed suicide by flying into the Towers and the Pentagon?

  176. The criminal state of Israel should be disarmed of its nuclear weapons and the 3 nuclear submarines it extorted from the Germans, it has demonstrated

    contempt for international law over and over, and ignores the current 66 UN resolutions against its actions. Their inhumanity to all others is dangerous.

  177. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 12:34 am

    I express an alternative opinion … so all of you think that I’m part of the Grand Conspiracy …

    BWWWAAHHHAAAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

  178. Poor Loser Larry. Always trying to goad people into anti-semitic statements and always failing. Look now how the pathetic loser tries to avoid discussion of Israel’s wanton brutality. Why don’t you address Craig’s points, foul-mouthed Loser Larry? Do you understand why no one talks to you? If your arguments were any threat, do you think the imaginary anti-semites who run this blog would allow you to post? Now go and put on your red nose and make-up and get back into the big tent where you belong.

  179. “all of you think that I’m part of the Grand Conspiracy”

    I’d be more inclined to think Holocaust deniers were trying to smear Craig by association.

    There’s an Israeli group (I forget the name, but I did go to their site at the time and they were open about what they did) that produced some software to co-ordinate “volunteer online activists” to visit and influence online discussions. It was particularly active during the Gaza conflict.

    Anyway this group started out as “volunteer online activists” but were trying to sell their software as a campaign tool.

  180. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 12:55 am

    “*Richard Goldstone’s report”

    I’m perfectly willing to concede that one or more of Congress’ 500+ members denounced the report.

  181. “I express an alternative opinion … so all of you think that I’m part of the Grand Conspiracy …

    BWWWAAHHHAAAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

    Answer the questions put to you, you Dork

    Where else do you inhabit Larryboy?

    You are giving your game away bigstyle

  182. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 1:05 am

    What questions?

  183. 1. What other blogs do you spout your stuff on

  184. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 1:13 am

    Not many, but the JREF is one.

  185. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 1:14 am

    “You are giving your game away bigstyle”

    So do you think I’m a secret agent man?

  186. In fact, I am hoping that this incident contributes to the destruction of NATO or at least to very serious reform. Without wishing to insult honest and decent people working in the organisation, NATO was hijacked by neo-cons and Nu Labour in the late 90s. It should have been given a decent burial following the end of the Cold War but it has become a shamelessly agressive alliance that spits on the UN and allows the US to pass on the bloody costs of its foul and idiotic adventures to fellow members. I can even see some members of congress exploiting this incident to argue for Israel’s membership (at a minimum it would relegate this type of incident to a dispute between members, at most it would drag NATO into a full-scale military conflict in the Middle East to the delight of Netanyahu and Co, not to mention Loser Larry). If you think this is a far-fetched idea, then ask yourself why Jose Maria Aznar raised this possibility approvingly a few years back in an interview on BBC Hardtalk. Was it a trial balloon? On whose behalf was he speaking? Things will get alot worse before they get better.

  187. Guys I appreciate the feedback. Plan to follow this blog. On my favorites now. Have a bless day.

  188. Guys I appreciate the feedback. Plan to follow this blog. On my favorites now. Have a bless day.

  189. If you lot put as much effort into doing something as you all do talking and patting yourselves on the back, perhaps more ships could have sailed to Gaza – Israel can’t kill everyone!

    George Orwell got off his backside and fought in the Spanish Civil War.

    You lot, and your “men of conscience”, i.e. Craig Murray, Noam Chomsky, Richard Dawkins, et al, just keep everyone discussing current events, or – in the case of Dawkins – personal opinion, endlessly, maintaining the public’s role as a mere spectator.

    Since the general election, I’ve watched no news; I don’t know what’s happening generally, I don’t know what MPs (Mafia People, that is) are in what positions in government, or how well they are serving their don, the PM – and I don’t care!

    Those in power are, effectively, a mafia, a bunch of criminals who impoverish, murder, destroy lives and hope on a scale other mafias can only dream about. No one discusses the politics of the Italian or Russian Mafia, so why should I discuss what the British one gets up to?

    You’re all bloody useless! You all might as well be dead in a morgue.

  190. Guys I appreciate the feedback. Plan to follow this blog. On my favorites now. Have a bless day.

  191. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 1:23 am

    “NATO was hijacked by neo-cons and Nu Labour in the late 90s.”

    Really?

    Bosnia

    Kosovo

    And I think the military leaders of the other NATO member states would disagree with you.

  192. Oh Bert, don’t bother with the trolls please – they just try to distract from the murderous indifference Israel shows the world.

    A far better response would be to talk about just that. Israel does not care about a supposed ally, it does not care about NATO, International Law, and most certainly not about the UN.

    It’s all sewn up, because America backs it. That makes everything it does A-OK. If only America had stopped giving it complete and full approval over everything that it has done for decades, then it would not have stooped to the depths in which it now finds itself. Palestine would not be “put on a diet” by a cynical, filthy Israeli regime.

    A fair minded person would not have to find themselves pondering the fact that Turkey has recently had an accord with Iran concerning nuclear fuel, just before Turkish flagged vessels were attacked. Nor wondering how on earth peace activists from Europe, America and indeed Israel had become “terrorists” trying to supply arms to blood-thirsty Arabs, who were naturally more interested in weapons that housing or eating.

    Nor would a fair minded person wonder why no mainstream media outlet in the US had gone anywhere near this, because all MSM employees know they might as well clear their desks right then and there, as they would write an article even suggesting some mild criticism of Israel.

    If only the US had been more even handed, instead of following an assumption that Israel can do no wrong, then Israel – like a child – would not have been forever pushing the boundaries, seeing what the limits of atrocities and unaccountable power might hold. If only for a little justice, from the US in particular, then fair minded people would not have to be aghast at all this, and get beaten and killed on aid flotillas trying to bring life-saving relief to the besieged and desperate people of Gaza.

  193. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 1:37 am

    “Nor would a fair minded person wonder why no mainstream media outlet in the US had gone anywhere near this,”

    My God, you’re just dense. It’s all over the news.

    We can always count on Jew haters like you to make this shit up.

  194. Larry from St. Louis

    3 Jun, 2010 - 1:39 am

    glenn, in fact I was watching this as I read your very dumb conspiracy-laden comments:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/vp/37477582#37470961

  195. Glenn,

    You’re right. Rebutting Larry is an unrewarding occupation. There’s not even the force of sincerity in what he says, which might justify taking it seriously.

    AMK

    “So yes, you DID say Jews run the US and Israel.”

    Good point. But my point was really this: The US ruling elite is plutocratic. The bulk of America’s wealth is in Jewish hands (60% of the Forbes wealthiest 100 are Jews, and many of America’s largest corporations are controlled by Jews). Most wealthy American Jews are Zionists. Thus, America’s ruling elite is largely Jewish and Zionist.

    Not every member of the American ruling elite is Jewish, obviously, but of those who are not Jewish the great majority are Zionist. Moreover, it is difficult to see how someone could be a part of the ruling elite if they were overtly hostile to Zionism.

    So, a Jewish inspired Zionist agenda dominates the thinking of the American elite and non-Jewish members of that elite go along with it, e.g.., Hilary Clinton (who learned where the power lay after too warmly embracing, Yasser Arafat’s wife), George W. Bush (an alleged anti-Semite), Conrad Black (why is he in jail, he seems to have made all the right contacts, has a Jewish wife, and had the right people on the board of his company?).

    In fact, there is not so much a USIsraeli elite as an Anglo-Franco-American-Canadian-Australian-Israeli elite. What proportion of the elite are Jews one cannot say with any exactitude, since it would take a monumental piece of research to identify all of the major personalities and their power relationships.

    Nevertheless, it seems clear, that most of the elite are either Jewish or Zionism-supporting non-Jews, e.g., Conservative/Liberal friends of Israel such as David, Bringing-you-a-better-Britain, Cameron (of Jewish extraction anyway).

    In this connection, it will be interesting to see how Nick Clegg’s view of Israel evolves now that he has rather unexpectedly achieved a position of power.

    So, to sum up, I would say that Jewish ideology rules: an ideology that is imposed with the support of most Jews, at least in America, and exercised by an elite of which Jews represent an remarkably large proportion.

    One might further discuss, exactly what Zionism is, and how it relates to British imperialism and other movements. To do such a question justice would require considerable scholarship. It seems reasonable to assume, however, that there is a consensus around the idea of creating a global empire, the main question in dispute being whether this will represent the realization of God’s promise that the Jews would rule over the nations of the Earth or whether it will be a rather more mongrel elite that achieves world empire.

  196. “I’m perfectly willing to concede that one or more of Congress’ 500+ members denounced the report.”

    Congress condemned the report 344-36.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/u-s-house-backs-resolution-to-condemn-goldstone-gaza-report-1.4853

    Israeli “Information Minister” (what would Orwell say?) denounces Goldstone as anti-Semitic:

    http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3839044,00.html

    “According to Edelstein, “After World War II and the establishment of the State of Israel, anti-Semitism is not directed at Jews but at Israel and the Israelis. The Goldstone Report, the publications in Sweden about organ harvesting and similar reports, are simply a type of anti-Semitism.”"

  197. AMK: Good work. The pro-Israeli racist trolls here will want a pointless, distracting conversation (“Where did I say that?” Right there. “No I didn’t, you said it.” et cetera ad infinitum).

    What is useful is that each weak rebuke, meant to be used for a tit-for-tat distraction from the thrust of a blog subject, is used to bring it back into focus instead.

    For instance – there is not one, not a single MSM (Main-Stream-Media) outlet which has given voice to the fact that this was a crime by Israel. Nothing but equivocating, and on-one-hand, but-on-the-other style pretence at journalism. They are so brave at criticising, except when it comes to Israel.

    They’ll scream and shout at the hideous crimes of Saddam Hussein, who spent decades being a good friend, but concerning who they are “shocked, shocked!” to find he killed and tortured and was actually a dictator all along.

    There’ll be brave, in-depth analysis of every last crime of every Official Enemy. And even questions about Official Friends who don’t seem to be supporting us quite well enough (such as France). But about Israel? Don’t make me laugh!

    For some reason, apologists for Israel have to cover this blog like a greasy slick when Israel commits yet another crime against humanity. You can judge the depth of the crime, by weighing up the proportion of said apologists’ posts. A total of 27/198 entries so far from a single poster speaks for itself.

    We had a 2-star “Larry-alert” above within minutes of my making a post, at 01:34. That’s good, but I must try harder… I know I can do better than that.

  198. Mount of Olives

    3 Jun, 2010 - 2:15 am

    We often discuss issues rationally.

    That’s a cultural thing.

    More often we seek the love and comfort of friends.

    That’s a cultural thing too.

    I remember an Irish citizen called Chaim Herzog being asked by a British journalist to coment negatively about Irish Republican activity. He didn’t do so, instead pointing out the long history of British abuse in Ireland.

    Chaim Herzog was President of Israel at the time.

    I remember his son, who was a minister in the last Israeli government, quite literally speechless when official Irish government complaints were put to him on British television.

    I know too that Irish people were very helpful in assisting the formation of the Israeli state.

    For some reason, Irish people have a natural sympathy for the underdog.

    At one time it was for Jews and the formation of Israel.

    Now it’s Palestinians and a secure state, free of outside interference.

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