The Denis MacShane Prize

by craig on November 3, 2012 11:22 am in Uncategorized

This is a genuine offer. I will pay £100 to any person who can provide a convincing reason why Denis MacShane’s expense fiddling, involving his creating false invoices, was not a criminal offence. Your argument does not have to be unanswerable – merely respectable. Up to three prizes will be given, for the three first and not essentially the same convincing arguments.

This competition specifically is open to employees of the Metropolitan Police and the Crown Prosecution Service; we would love to know their reasoning. It baffles me. I confess I can think of no single circumstance in this case that would prevent MacShane being convicted for theft and fraud. What is the answer?

Denis MacShane is a criminal. If he wants to try his chances with a jury, the libel courts are open to him and I am here.

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415 Comments

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  1. There is no place for Macshane to hide from the law now, Craig. I think you are safe from the libel lawyers as well as the Labour Friends of Israel.

  2. Tony -

    Thanks. Problem is he doesn’t have to hide from the law. The Metropolitan Police have said they are not investigating him.

  3. Try as I may the only arguments I can even conceivably come up with would be blatantly fraudulent on my part in the attempt to win the money. lol
    .
    Its a strange old world, when the working class falsify benefit claims, which are very similar to expense claims in essence, then it is called “fraud” and not foolishness as MacShane self described it. Just how did this soft language and response for deviancy committed by those in privileged positions evolve whilst far harder language and judicial response remains applicable to the great unwashed?

  4. My post on face book and http://new-agenda2012.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/parliamentary-privlege-abused-to.html

    This parasite has stolen money from the British Taxpayer. He escapes prosecution because evidence is protected by “parliamentary privilege” It should not be that parliamentary privilege can protect acts of criminality by members of parliament .

  5. Crimes of dishonesty require the guilty mind (intent), to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, so if I were his lawyer I’d be making a case that it was negligent rather than deliberate… I don’t know enough about the facts to know whether that would be a runner though. Just playing devil’s advocate!

  6. A few facts about MacShane that will tell anyone all they need to know – http://neoclassics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/denis-macshane-matyjaszek-some-facts.html

  7. The Crown Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan Police are obviously not bringing a prosecution simply because they have the public interest in mind. They know that the second there is the whiff of a prosecution he will do a Lady Porter.

    They are thus saving us the tax payers hard earned dosh for us. Gawd bless ‘em!

  8. Long ago I read somewhere a Western view of why communism was a flawed system. It went a bit like this. If Ivan Nikoleievich a party member in, say, Bratsk, did something wrong, the local committee would summon him and most likely ban him from attending party meetings, or even withdraw his party membership.
    However, Russians are human, and the remaining members were still friends with Ivan. So after a couple of months, someone would propose that he be reinstated. And very often he was. He then returned to his old party tasks just as before, having effectively had a light slap on the wrist for whatever he did wrong.

    This failure to effectively discipline wrongdoing within the party ranks was central to the fall of the USSR, or so the article claimed.

    Compare & contrast with Macshame. He committed a criminal offence -theft from the British taxpayer he sas supposed to represent and, allegedly because of parliamentary privilege, he cannot now be prosecuted.

    I’d like to believe the moral of the story, but I’m not holding my breath for the imminent collapse of our fundamentally corrupted plutocracy.

    Seems to me that it’s the same old mutual back scratching in both cases.

  9. Pauline Barten.

    3 Nov, 2012 - 12:12 pm

    The only reason i can think of for him not being prosecuted is = corruption.

  10. Dick the Prick

    3 Nov, 2012 - 12:13 pm

    Yer money’s safe. I reckon he’ll go for the Margaret Moran defence – blub blub blub penguin. Even the CiFers aren’t too upset – seems he was a bit of a bully to some of his interns but gave away taxpayers laptops to others – nice boss!

    That he didn’t respond to John Lyon for 4 months is akin to a child just ignoring it so it’ll go away.

    This guy could have easily got away with it if he wasn’t such an ejeet. I bet the IPSA clerk just sat there, slack jawed thinking – ‘and what the fuck do you call this?’ as he was handed an invoice in crayon. It’s truly staggering that an MP can reach 60ish years old and be so mind bogglingly useless as basic admin.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/02/mps-expenses-maxed-out-editorial

  11. Tony’s link includes a statement issued by MacShane in the last 24 hours in which he claims he’s been ‘judged harshly’ !

    This man’s sense of entitlement, and implicit contempt for his constituents, and the UK taxpayer, is boundless.

    Johnf- the Law of Return doesn’t apply to MacShane (a gentile) so the Lady Porter option isn’t available to him.

  12. Surely the reason that it is not an criminal is that the amounts involved were so large as to cause our allies to rethink intelligence sharing and put pressure on the Govt to clear this whole mess up PDQ. Nothing to see, move along plebs.

  13. Also wasn’t the Parliamentary Priv excuse rejected by the courts when the last lot ended up in jail. What has changed in this case?

  14. The labour party elected as its leader Tony Blair, what more do u need to know about these clowns. How many died under the US/UK/Israeli sanctions on Iraq? The proper way to deal with this is look at the pro israeli voting record and make this transparent to his constituents, how many know they are electing Israeli puppets as their MP’s

  15. Relevant material is in the public domain. How can it be privilege-protected?

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmstnprv/635/63502.htm

    See #19 -25, (enclosures), in particular.

    The only thing standing between MacShane and court is the intentionally ill-defined notion of parliamentary privilege. If this ensures that an MP is immune from prosecution under criminal charges, it is time the system is overhauled and put into legally valid form.

  16. doug scorgie

    3 Nov, 2012 - 1:17 pm

    The reason, Craig, is as follows:
    The Director of Public Prosecutions is a political appointee and is a puppet of the government. If you look at some cases dropped by the Crown Prosecution Service it would appear that political considerations are taken into account after the police have submitted their files:
    Guardian 31/10/12
    The City of London police have dropped their year-long investigation into whether Adam Werritty committed fraud by posing as Liam Fox’s official adviser.
    The police said the case against Werritty had been dropped after the Crown Prosecution Service advised that there was insufficient evidence to justify criminal charges.
    Regarding Simon Harwood, the police officer that assaulted Ian Tomlinson before his death:
    The Crown Prosecution Service had initially ruled out prosecuting the officer because of conflicting post-mortem reports.
    Jimmy Savile and the 2 year police investigation file submitted in 2009:
    Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service said in a statement that the case was dropped because a crucial witness declined to testify and because there was “insufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction.”
    From the Daily Telegraph 2/11/12
    Regarding the report on MacShane
    “In the report, the standards commissioner John Lyon said the investigation was suspended for almost two years because of the police enquiry.
    However, although Mr Lyon reported Mr MacShane to the police in October 2010, he noted in his report that his evidence was not requested by the police, raising serious questions about the police investigation.
    The enquiry was dropped after the Crown Prosecution Service concluded that the file passed to them by the police in December 2011 contained insufficient evidence to try Mr MacShane.”
    Though the other way round. From the Sunday Times 29/07/12:
    KEIR STARMER, the director of public prosecutions (DPP), stopped his staff from dropping a case against an accountant who joked on Twitter that he wanted to blow up an airport, it was claimed today. Chambers was later found guilty of sending a menacing tweet. Crown prosecution service (CPS) lawyers told Chambers they saw no public interest in opposing his appeal, but Starmer allegedly overruled them at the last minute. Chambers won his appeal.
    I believe MacShane will be re-investigated and maybe charged now that it seems politically expedient to do so.

  17. Spend your money on launching a private prosecution.

    (As an aside, all prosecutions brought by the RSPCA are private prosecutions; what I’m suggesting is not without precedent).

  18. The present DPP is also i/c of the Crown Prosecution Service, Keir Starmer QC. ‘Baroness’ Scotland appointed him (enough said) and in his previous life as a barrister he worked for ACPO (a private limited company and not a state organisation as many people believe)

    ‘He is generally seen as supportive of the Labour Party.[6]‘
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keir_Starmer

    He came from Doughty Street Chambers. There you can see the names of Geoffrey Robertson and Helena Kennedy. Also Gavin Millar, brother of Fiona Millar, wife of war criminal Alastair Campbell.

    The whole set up of the establishment is an incestuous nest. Not what you know but who you know. Justice? What is that and where is it in this country in 2012.

    It seems that it is down to Attorney General Grieve to proceed but look at his record including throwing out the request for an inquest for Dr Kelly.

  19. Craig, I believe you owe Doug Scourgie 100 smackers.

    PS – I love the frequently-trotted line “..has decided that a prosecution would not be in the public interest” – precious!

  20. “Atos doctors and nurses raise concerns over signing of Official Secrets Act”

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/atos-doctors-and-nurses-raise-concerns-1412477

  21. Mr MacShane is rather well-known on the continent, so permit me to comment. I don’t think he’s an especially evil man, and certainly not a stupid one, and a (rare) open pro-EU voice in the government was appreciated. What strikes one is the smallness of the amounts in question; the man has sacrificed his political life and general reputation for a few thousand pounds. Toutes proportions gardées, of course, but he seems to be almosrt a Shakespearean tragic figure, a person brought down by a tragic flaw in his character. I leerave the question of what that flaw was to tohers to judge.

  22. David McCann

    3 Nov, 2012 - 2:21 pm

    The theft of public money by members of parliament, including government ministers is nothing new. Alasdair Darling, made four second home designations and charged the taxpayer for accountancy fees to work out his complicated financial affairs. The taxpayer also footed the bill for stamp duty and legal fees on his £226,000 home in South London. He then began claiming £900 mortgage interest payments on it. The cost of furnishing followed, to the tune of £950, which he claimed along with a chaise longue, sofa and oven mitt, as well as a 75p Ikea carrier bag!
    Harriet Harman, spent £10,000 of taxpayers’ money on “media training”. The list goes on.
    At the time of these expense scandals, not one political reporter or Westminster commentator, revealed a shred of this scandal. It took a whistle blower and the Telegraph to reveal the depth of the widespread theft of public money.
    Alasdair Darling is currently leading the ‘Better Together’ campaign to save the Union.
    They are well named!

  23. “While we working on the documentary he told me that he had become interested in political conspiracies because of his experiences at the BBC and in government. He had been appalled about how the BBC had quashed great stories while he was working as a political journalist. He told me one story that involved a paedophile ring in the British government in the 1980s.”

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19658&hl=

  24. “Clearly I deeply regret that the way I chose to be reimbursed for costs related to my work in Europe and in combating antisemitism, including being the Prime Minister’s personal envoy, has been judged so harshly.”

    There is the defence: he needed the money to combat anti-semitism. He didn’t like to bother Tony Blair, who was too busy, fighting anti-semitism himself, so he forged a few invoices.

  25. Good point, Gyges.

    Maybe we should found the RSPCT (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Taxpayers).

  26. Spend your money on launching a private prosecution.

    Leave it. E ain’t wurf it. There’s bigger fish to fry. Like bringing a 19th.century parliamentary protection system, designed to prevent the law embarrassing the squirearchy, kicking and screaming into the present day.

  27. ‘What strikes one is the smallness of the amounts in question; the man has sacrificed his political life and general reputation for a few thousand pounds.’

    Jerome: MacShane’s wikipedia entry includes this description of him (by Ian Buruma)- “one of the few British politicians with a deep knowledge of France.” Your take on his actions (and MacShane’s own perception that he’s been treated ‘unjustly’)could reasonably be termed ‘typically French’.

    Another example of the Jerome/MacShane mindset here-

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1329860/France-appoints-convicted-criminal-Alain-Jupp-defence-secretary.html

  28. Fooldefencecounsel

    3 Nov, 2012 - 2:51 pm

    A subject of the crown is not deemed to have committed a criminal offence until he has been found guilty. Mr McShane has not been found guilty and therefore he has not committed a criminal offence. I claim £100 and if you agree to pay I will nominate a charity.

  29. Because the system is utterly corrupt of course

  30. Fooldefencecounsel

    3 Nov, 2012 - 3:02 pm

    Craig, you will no doubt agree that you will have a more convincing answer than mine and therefore please send £100 to The Prison Phoenix Trust, which is a charity teaching yoga and meditation to prisoners.

  31. Fooldefence – need I point out there is a subtle difference between describing MacShane as a convicted criminal, and postulating (as Craig did) the criminality of what he did? As I see it, m’lud, Mr.M. cannot be described as a criminal until he is found guilty of a crime. This is not in dispute. My client is entitled to know, however, why Mr.M. cannot face trial on a criminal charge, and that is the basis of his inquiry. Snapplepacket vs Drudgeworthy (1886) provides….etc, etc…

  32. MacShane’s blase approach to small time fraud, when far greater rewards for his affiliations are surely coming his way, simply reveals normalised political corruption and impunity. Again.

    Wanting incorruptible politicians is just banging our heads against a brick wall. Might this explain Vronsky’s headache and visions?

  33. To “OldMark” (or perhaps Jeune Imbécile?) : what is the “take on his actions” which you infer from my post? Approval? A shrug of the shoulders? Wrong! To explain again : it is a Shakespearean tragic flaw in the man’s character which led him to throw away a political career and reputation for the sake of a few thousand pounds. I said nothing more than that.

    And please, don’t get into this stupid, insular mindset of suggesting Mr MacShane’s behaviour and the reaction (or non-reaction) of the authorities is typically French; I seem to remember that quite a few UK politicians are not prosecuted – and rehabilitated after a short interval. Latest example – Mr David Laws.

  34. I actually searched for “Snapplepacket vs Drudgeworthy (1886)”. Duh!

  35. @Phil: You can fool some of the people some of the time, and ain’t it great when you do? Thanks for the feedback. :-)

  36. I saw him interviewed in French on the telly once. I think he was some sort of UK Euro-Minister at the time.

    Talk about smug. And he clearly thought his French better than I did. Langue et Civilisation how are ya.

  37. larry Levin

    3 Nov, 2012 - 5:10 pm

    the houses of parliament prove you can fool all the people all of the time.

    So parliamentary privilege means MP’s can commit crime and not be prosecuted but would that only apply if he was doing acting in the normal course of being an MP? what is the case laws on this, can the people who put him forward as an MP be sued for injury/loss or harm due to a criminal MP? also when he was making laws he would have to declare an interest since he was a criminal this would mean he was in the business of crime will legislating about crime? and angle there to be followed?. can we trawl through the law files and find if any MP’s have ever been convicted?

  38. Found this very good website Search the Money which lists corporate and private donations to MPs and their outside remunerations. Cons only at the moment. Hope they extend to cover the other troughers.
    http://www.searchthemoney.com/

    You can click on a donor’s name and the total that they have donated appears.

    Look at Gove, over £462k and someone called Geoffrey Cox, Torridge and W Devon £756,000k+ !! WTF.

  39. Jerome, 3:23pm, 3.11.12:

    Agreed. And another is Peter Mandelson. And another, Stephen Byers. And what about Jeremy Hunt?

  40. He was a Straw protégé as Europe Minister.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Europe

    Denis MacShane Labour 28 October 2002 – 11 May 2005

  41. Another WTF! His record has been deleted from TheyWorkForYou unless I am going blind.

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mps/?o=p

  42. larry Levin

    3 Nov, 2012 - 5:29 pm

    how about doing an e-petition

    “we demand the criminal prosecution of the 100% guilty Dennis McShane after a lawful and fair trial that he be stripped naked and hand =cuffed and left in the bbc car park”

    something along those lines.

  43. Jeremy Hunt got promotion! Incredible arrogance. Nowadays, they only resign, you see, when not doing so would expose the core mechanics of war and power and so, the lesser trope of a ‘scandal’ serves to obscure the greater, systemic political pathology. It is the mechanics of the hard state.

    Oh, they also resign if they openly insult a policeman and remind people that there is a thing called social class in this country and that it is actually still the main structural inequality. And so, in a bizarre and convenient Swiftian inversion, the police become class warriors in the UK.

  44. The law (like taxation) is only for small people; for big people there are merely suggestions.
    This has been pointed out ad nauseam, but nothing changes.

  45. KingofWelshNoir

    3 Nov, 2012 - 5:50 pm

    I can’t claim the prize so, instead, I propose a toast to a man who had the right idea. Guy Fawkes.

  46. Suhayl ‘…..the police become class warriors in the UK.’

    Back to Thatcher’s Army at Orgreave. Do you remember the Scottish Yank she got in to mastermind the breaking of the NUM?
    Sir Ian McGregor.

    http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/counterpower-by-tim-gee-pt-9-how-thatcher-destroyed-britains-national-union-of-mineworkers/

    Within that link there is a sentence that says
    ‘BBC edited a film to make it look like strikers had attacked police when, in fact, just the opposite was true. Six years later, the BBC finally offered a weak apology for its duplicity.’

    Nothing changes.

  47. English Knight

    3 Nov, 2012 - 6:23 pm

    [Mod/Jon: removed whole post. Using "Jewish" as an explanation for criminal behaviour in the political classes, or as an explanation for getting away with it, is not permitted here.]

  48. Why Denis MacShane should not be prosecuted.
    Under the criminal law, in common law jurisdictions, there is an established code of ethics in charging and punishing those who are at the lower end of the criminal spectrum. Even those at the upper end of serious crime are still likely to be punished – but there are provisos:-
    1. No punishment for some who clearly are scoundrels and/or dishonest but are within a special category. One can readily note the “banksters” and “fraudsters” who escaped any criminal sanctions for their transgressions in the City and on Wall Street. These are “special criminals”.
    2. There is an age limit for criminal responsibility – but unfortunately Denis MacShane is a bit past it and can’t rely on this defence.
    3. High Office does confer certain privileges – and – this, I believe, serves Denis well in this case.
    4. The crime may also be so lowly for MacShane’s high office that it simply does not merit the serious attention of the Crown Prosecution Service. Consider for a moment – nineteen false claims; yes – nineteen fake invoices; not one or two – nineteen – and all he was able to cheat was a mere 12,900 pounds. Derisive and stupid and his conduct should not be rewarded with official and serious attention of criminal charges. He submitted an invoice twice for computer charges amounting to five thousand nine hundred and sixty eight pounds. Did someone say stupid? Only eight computers – come on Denis – a hundred would have been more in keeping for a man of your stature.
    5. I could submit that the client was negligent nineteen times over.
    6. And – evidence submitted to parliament is not admissible in court. But now that the report is published there should not be this barrier, so we have some work to do on this case.
    Truth is that this is not a hard case to prove and really, from a lawyer’s point of view, is open and shut:-
    The law reads as follows:-
    Section 17 of the Theft Act 1968:-
    “False accounting.
    (1)Where a person dishonestly, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another,—
    (a) destroys, defaces, conceals or falsifies any account or any record or document made or required for any accounting purpose; or
    (b) in furnishing information for any purpose produces or makes use of any account, or any such record or document as aforesaid, which to his knowledge is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular;
    he shall, on conviction on indictment, be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years.
    (2) For purposes of this section a person who makes or concurs in making in an account or other document an entry which is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular, or who omits or concurs in omitting a material particular from an account or other document, is to be treated as falsifying the account or document”
    A. There is the wrongful act ( i.e. “actus reus”) of having taken the 12,900 pounds.
    B. He used a nom de plume, so clearly he wanted to conceal something and in so doing it is absolutely evident that he was hiding conduct that he actually knew to be dishonest and did falsify. This comprises the mens rea – the next of the two elements to secure a criminal conviction.
    C. A conviction should easily be obtained on the known evidence. If a person acts knowingly and with fraudulent conduct, so as it disguise the benefit of fake invoices – is he guilty? Is the Pope Catholic?
    But – you still have to prove it.
    Denis – we could still fall back on 3, 4 and 5 above as defences – couldn’t we? Don’t forget, the ol’ boys network and a solid sense of entitlement. Stiff upper lip – ol’ chap.
    Craig – where is my hundred quid?

    P.S. Ichancho has the right idea:-

    ” The law (like taxation) is only for small people; for big people there are
    merely suggestions.

    This has been pointed out ad nauseam, but nothing changes.”

    But – I still want the prize Craig.

  49. TheyWorkForYou still has MacShane’s report page live here:
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/denis_macshane/rotherham

    The speedy removal of dismissed MP from the Index seems at clear odds with the sites purpose.

  50. Craig, I wished you were more generous. 100 quid gets you nowhere nowadays. The question is easy to answer. That creep is a friend of israel. As everyone in the UK seems to be a friend of Israel in these days (those who are not yet are on the way of becoming friends) we and they are all great friends or “amici dei amici” and one does not do certain things to friends.

    Please let me know that I won the great prize as soon as possible. Otherwise, I will have a sleepless night.

  51. Ah, I found MacShane’s page through archive.org , but they have another search form on their index – “Search by name (including former MPs)”
    - so no need to wonder who TheyWorkForYou works for :)

  52. Thanks ThatCrab. That explains it. I looked through the list and he was not included.

    Debbie Abrahams Lab Oldham East and Saddleworth

    Dennis Skinner Lab Bolsover

    Derek Twigg Lab Halton

    /..

  53. technicolour

    3 Nov, 2012 - 7:17 pm

    Suhayl, yes, again! Social mobility, my foot.

  54. O/T completely, and somewhat belatedly -to Guano, Suhayl, (?)Mark,(?)Uzbek and non-vegetarians everywhere…

    http://i79.servimg.com/u/f79/12/99/87/07/eid1010.jpg

    Or Kurban Bayram, if you prefer…

  55. “U.S. Elections: Will the Dead Vote and Voting Machines be Hacked?”

    “He who casts a vote decides nothing. He who counts the vote decides everything.”

    -Joseph Stalin”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/11/03/u-s-elections-will-dead-vote-voting-machines-hacked/

  56. Nice to help you, to help you, nice Mary.

    And the Eid… I want to join in, after discovering Komodo’s greeting card, a belated ‘happy Eid’. But it occurs to me that an occasions purpose might not simply mean to ‘be happy’. Like, Happy Birthday, happy Holidays etc. “Many Contrivations!” But I dont know the lingo so Happy Eid it is.

  57. His response would be that he is part of the state within the state where the law doesn’t apply. The law is there to contain the plebs particularly when they rise up i.e. six months for stealing a £3.50 case of bottled water

  58. I think we wish ‘Eid Mubarak’ to our Muslim friends if we are not too late.

    http://www.ramadantimetable.co.uk/

  59. I fear there is a misconstruction of D. MacShane’s contempt to plebeians (derivative plebiscite) shown through his submission of the infantile invoices; as his “flawed character”, or his “lack of imagination”. Alas his obvious and almost blatant attempt in false accounting is part of the “freude” or bravado that is born of his certainty that his obvious fraud will be going unpunished, and he will not stand to account for his almost amateurish attempt in defrauding the tax payers funds. This fact has held true, because despite the public knowledge of the fraud, D. MacShane has not faced any consequences for his fraudulent conduct and by the looks of it is not likely to do so either.

    The Bush/Blair era, will surely be remembered as the golden age of the fraudsters, cheats and liars, whence the discriminatory application of law became to be the normal course of conduct of the state affairs, and lies, and bribes as normal currency and stock in trade of the power elite to be applied copiously without any fear of reprisals.

  60. The blessed Eid does seem rather a tardy diversion – it could be savagely critiqued. I

    Exiled – I wish that you could be right and the Bush/Bliar era was “the golden age of the fraudsters, cheats and liars” , but it seems to be becoming more and more normal. I find Obama dazzlingly sophisticated and likeable, but he too is a blatant liar.

    Anyway, ive thought of a “Denis MacShane’s expense fiddling, involving his creating false invoices, was not a criminal offence”
    - It is because politicians are not payed in accordance with their importance and ability and demands of their position. An MPs salary of 60 odd grand, does not attract the caliber of people we expect to govern highly. To become a politician involves sacrificing much earning potential -in theory. Politicians have to legislate for and against all groups, the rich and the poor, but they are neither. They must resist the temptation of riches and govern without being corrupted by personal greed. Their salary does not satisfy the lust we many have, to be immune to financial worries, yet their rare skillset would trouser great bonuses in that parallel world of financial power. They settle for the soulful rewards of serving their country in its political engineroom. So when such as Denis MacShane steals money from his employer, the employer is merciful, recognising his difficulty with the saintly sacrifices of political office, and rather than press criminal charges, expects that the shameful fall from saintly political grace will be punishment enough. After all, its not about the money, it is about power with potentialy unlimited effect.

    Its complete bollocks designed to make politicians corruptable to extra financial incentives – the artificial low salary and artificial claims about politicans motives. But i propose it as the reason he is not to be prosecuted.

  61. Ahh! – Charles Crawford has the answer to fiddling:

    “By comparison these British Parliamentary scandals are embarrassingly microscopic, banal in their parochial prosaic pettiness and sheer lack of ambition. Good grief! He bought several laptops! And books! Down he goes.”

    http://www.businessandpolitics.org/?p=4596

  62. The essential test is a persons status(?). Given McShanes middle class status troughing is seen purely as a misdemeanour! Heaven help the sub-class single (for whatever reason) mother who fiddles a few pounds from the DSS to feed her children though.

  63. Didn’t I tell you?:-

    “High Office does confer certain privileges – and – this, I believe, serves Denis well in this case.”

    So – Charles Crawford says…

    “Author – Charles Crawford

    Full disclosure: I know Denis MacShane quite well on professional colleagues terms. I worked with him on a wide range of difficult policy issues when he was Minister of State at the Foreign Office and I was British ambassador first in Serbia then in Poland. Latterly we have been on friendly Twitter terms”

    And Charles Crawford will be my character witness for MacShane.

    Still fighting to get that 100 quid.

  64. Hey !- Courtenay *my* trawl came up trumps -oh well I like you – fifty fifty I say…

  65. Well off topic. Nothing to do with expenses, I apologise. Please listen to Melanie Phillips arguing the moral advantages of drone warfare in the Moral Maze.

  66. http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/11/the-crisis-of-social-democracy-in-europe/

    Great bit of philo-losophy.

    Big materialistic,individualistic,selfish,selfserving,destroying.
    Lovefest.

    Lead by example.

    Simpe life really!

  67. @ Karel at 6.48pm : “amici dei amici” ?? Shouldn’t that be “amici degli amici” ?

    Sorry to sound like Denis MacShane.

  68. As Charles Crawford says in defence of fair play and honest conduct:-

    ” Good grief! He bought several laptops! And books! Down he goes.”

    Well – come on now – he fiddled some 19 times over – just a little misdemeanor = 1 + 18 times over – but still just stemming from an initial misdemeanor…duh…huh?
    Repetition is the mother of learning, I was taught. So – theoretically he started with just one transgression – but – realistically he learned well and did it 19 times over.

  69. A small number of MPs were prosecuted, shown on TV going to court, given short jail sentences and let out well before the full term was completed, given a shed load of money when they left the Commons. Justice being seen to be done!

    Some like Hazel Blears for example, said very sorry, paid some of the money back and even appeared contrite on TV, and then as in her case even got re-elected by a loyal Labour working class electorate, the type who would be prosecuted for benefit fraud, no doubt about it.

    So what more do you want ?
    Job done and now back to normal business.
    You weren’t really expecting justice, honesty or integrity now surely ?

  70. Israel’s Best Puppet Shamed like greville hello sonny janner.
    they are all doin it for the homeland while doin it for the kids

  71. Come on Murray. Christmas is on the way.

    Mark Golding and I have agreed that we both win – and the split of the winnings is therefore 50/50.

    I am contented to have my half share in the form of your book ” Murder in Samarkand…” autographed and sent to me for arrival before Christmas. You can give the rest of the 100 quid to Mark. We worked hard for that prize.

  72. ‘it is a Shakespearean tragic flaw in the man’s character which led him to throw away a political career and reputation for the sake of a few thousand pounds.’

    MacShane’s downfall isn’t Shakespearean in the least, Jerome; his crude forgeries and wheedling self-justification resemble instead a seedy character from a novel by Graham Greene or Eric Ambler.

  73. It’s like Ken or Larry From St Louis never left…

  74. David Lawley-Wakelin appears in court on 16 November for calling out “Excuse me, this man should be arrested for war crimes” when Blair was giving ‘evidence’ to Leveson.

    The law is a travesty.

    http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/why-it-is-tony-blair-and-not-me-who-should-be-in-the-dock

  75. OldMark, of course you’re right when it comes to the details, but isn’t it rather Shakespearean to see the career of a man who had “everything”, so to speak, who was riding high, brought crashing down because of a personal flaw (greed? overwheening pride allied to a sense of immunity?…)

    (Toutes proportions gardées, comme toujours)

  76. Hang 'em High

    4 Nov, 2012 - 9:12 am

    Denis McShane’s name can be added to that of Liam Fox.

    Israeli agents who got caught red-handed breaking the law but remain immune from prosecution because of something called ‘anti-Semtism’ – which protects the criminal, the corrupt, the polluter, the debaser and the liar from such mundane trivialities as civility and justice for fear of insulting fellow co-religionists (and their invented history) who constitute 0.002% of the Earths population, or 0.05% in the UK.

  77. Mrs Balls-Cooper does not want to preempt any decision by the police to investigate further! but she does think that it is a very serious matter. What a hypocrite. She has sat alongside MacShame since 1997 when she was first elected as one of the Bliar babes. MacShame arrived in the HoC 3 years earlier in a by-election following the death of the previous MP James Boyce thus:

    On Christmas Eve 1993 he was put on the transplant waiting list for a new heart after what he thought was a respiratory problem. He turned out to be suffering from an enlarged heart. On Burns Night 1994 he suffered a fatal heart attack at home in his living room. Over 500 people attended his memorial service at which a speaker was the then Labour Party leader John Smith, who, coincidentally, would also die of a heart attack later that year.

    !! You can see that haggis and whisky is not good for you. :)

  78. Hang 'em High

    4 Nov, 2012 - 9:41 am

    “There had been widespread surprise at comments by a senior Commons official who said correspondence from Mr MacShane to the standards watchdog were protected by parliamentary privilege and so could not be used in a criminal prosecution.”

    Translation: the level of chutzpah displayed by MacShane and his supporters has not been reflected in the response from the (anti-Semitic) public so we need to be seen to be doing something.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/9653224/MPs-expenses-Police-take-first-step-towards-charges-against-Denis-MacShane.html

  79. How pathetic of Yvette Cooper to be so typically cowardly and evasive of an answer when asked of Craig’s leading question [re McShane's criminal actions] on Andrew Marr a few moments ago.

    Tell us all everything we need to know about her values and suitability for future honest office.

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=3e9c549f934e2539c0a939fd551936f7&showtopic=19658&#entry262378 ….. William Hague in the paedophile spotlight? …… which is a valid enough question whenever the truth of suspicions are being suppressed and such shenanigans are always counter-productive and concentrate attentions, and also put innocent parties into the frame, which is reprehensible.

  80. Hang 'em High

    4 Nov, 2012 - 9:54 am

    Friends of Mr MacShane said the politician privately acknowledged that he always “sailed close to the wind” during his parliamentary career, but complained his treatment seemed unfair compared with others accused of misusing the MPs’ expenses system.

    Translation: Everyone knew that Mr MacShane was corrupt from head to toe because he so frequently paraded it around like a badge of honour, what has really upset the criminal is not that he has betrayed the voter, stolen from the tax-payer and destroyed peoples faith in politics, it is that he is not being treated fairly’ compared with the other criminals.

  81. MacShane is not the only one, of course. I see that Salmond is at it, too. Here we go again. Let’s ask Liam Fox and Adam Werrity, shall we?

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/11/04/israeli-ambassador-meets-the-scottish-government/

  82. That – the SNP establishing deep links with Israel – suggests that following on from the failure of instigate an investigation into the CIA/MI6 fix that was the Lockerbie trial (as Vronsky astutely pointed out) and the decision to remain part of the warmongering NATO military alliance, now the SNP are sending a signal to the Pentagon/CIA. This is Labour, reprised.

  83. It was actually an elaborate long-running sting operation for a newspaper to uncover how far one could still go with blatantly inappropriate invoices for expenses. As their undercover journalist he is able to claim exemption from illegality due to it being done for a greater public good, etc. etc… (ask Rebekkah for the finer details on how that works…)

  84. Totally off topic…I will be in UK next week so will give you a ring….picking up a bottle of the favorite at Nairobi duty free…

  85. @Courtney…I quite agree, but rather ask for the Catholic Orangemen as I think it a lot funnier and a better read !

  86. “Ken Clarke defends ‘secret courts’ plan”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20178270

  87. Guest, isn’t it apt to bring this debate into the news, just now, when probity of Government and establishment are stressed to the ninepins over a massive scandal.

    National security only says Ken Clarke, well that is a term you can stretch from here to Oz.

    could that possibly include an exposure of Royals?

    Now let me ask you all this question, was Denis Mac Shane pushed into the lime light as a diversion? The known bent Labour politician, mere tabloid fodder whilst the memo’s and warnings against disclosing these long standing paedophiles are being handed out?

  88. @Suhayl

    Your link is to an article by Kevin Wiliamson, not a member of the SNP and a well-known radical writer. You may have read the piece a little hastily – he says that the meeting was innocent, but spun to seem otherwise by the Israeli propaganda machine.

    There are certainly strong right-wing elements within the SNP but there is also a strong radical element. The latter have been a little too quiet of late, but showed up well in the NATO debate, although they lost it. At present appeals to comfort mainstream opinion in advance of the referendum will probably continue to trump concern at the recent rightward turn of events, but there will be a reckoning. A sample of anti-NATO speeches at the 2012 conference here.

    The Lockerbie Case is to me the most concerning issue. The SNP had much to gain politically by revealing the corruption of their predecessors – and yet they did nothing. That can only mean external control.

  89. Courtenay,

    Yes, money has no memory – I would like a framed, signed photograph of the Craig family please – that would be splendid. Clark has my address.

  90. O/T (on Savile)

    Tom Watson: “I’m not going to let this drop despite warnings from people who should know that my personal safety is imperilled if I dig deeper.”

    http://www.tom-watson.co.uk/2012/11/10-days-that-shook-my-world

    |z| ≥ 0, |z| = 0 iff z = 0?

    You’re kidding …

  91. Imagining the research materials:

    Dear Moniker,
    Well I know what you mean – he is one of the other side but, at the same time, he’s still a member of parliament and, well, it’s the thin end of the wedge isn’t it. If people start thinking we’re going to prosecute MPs every time they break the law, where would it stop? I mean, we can sacrifice one or two for the sake of PR every now and then. There’s still plenty of us left to receive the lobbyists but if we were all in jail, it’d get quite difficult to organise things.
    Yours,
    A Tory

    Dear Moniker,
    But he’s one of ours! We want people to think the *tories* are all criminals. We can’t keep finding our lot in court.
    Yours,
    A Labour Party Person

    Dear Moniker,
    What, do something that’s against *both* the other lots? Don’t be daft – where’s the gain in that?
    Yours,
    A Liberal Democrat Person

    Dear Moniker,
    But I thought it was a done deal. I’ve already booked my holiday!
    Yours,
    A person in uniform

    Dear Moniker,
    Why didn’t we prosecute? You see, it’s well known in the worlds of science and philosophy that you can’t easily prove a negative and the same rule most certainly applies in politics and law. I could explain why we *do* prosecute, when we do. It’s to maintain the general belief that if ordinary people break the law, they’ll get into trouble.
    There have been several examples in recent years of important peole being prosecuted. This is sometimes because they’ve proved to be unsound (ie, they’ve started telling the truth to people) and sometimes because we need to avoid looking biased – but as we haven’t prosecuted in the case you mention, I cannot answer without having to explain a negative. So, sorry, no can do. Good luck with your research.
    Yours,
    A Civil Servant

    Dreaming up a report:

    Dear Craig,
    I think the MPs have got so used to the idea that proper people have the option of resigning or retiring to avoid annoying things like being sacked or arrested that they have quite simply forgotten prosecution is a possibility. As to the MET and the DPP, I don’t know, but I suspect that anyone who has a deeply held wish to maintain the spirit and the efficacy of the law would have long since succumbed to a strong desire to give up public office and take up kicking lamp-posts instead, because it’s more satisfying. as a result, a generation are now in action who don’t understand the concept of the law at all. Witness the many news-munchers who’ve responded by saying ‘well, he’s lost his job and he’s not all bad.’
    They’ll tell you anarchy and disorder are bad things, and yet they have no concept of how the law’s supposed to work, which is: you make the law as fair as you can, then scrupulously apply it to everyone, otherwise it won’t work.
    (I added that last bit in case anyone who’s slipping off the edge reads it and thinks, ‘oh yes, that’s how the law should work!’)
    Yours,
    Moniker

  92. The blessed Eid does seem rather a tardy diversion – it could be savagely critiqued.

    I hope those celebrating it will not be too harsh. That’s Eid-al-Adha, btw,
    not Eid al-Fitr (Sheker Bayram), which ends Ramadan. I was reminded of it by a Saudi friend (a native of Najd) who gave me sweets to mark the occasion on his way to the mosque last Friday. And, incidentally, a handshake, of which his Imam might not have approved…heck of a nice guy.

  93. Habbabkuk,
    I feel honoured that my insignificant contributions are perused with such a care. You are right that one can also write “amici degli amici”. But “dei” is the more common abbreviated form of “degli” like “isn’t” is an equivalent of “is not”. Unfortunately, no prizes will be won for your attempted interlocution.

    Having waited a whole day for a call from Craig informing me that I have won his wonderful prize, I am a bit edgy. Somehow, and because of a tragic flaw in my character, I feel like committing a crime of Shakespearean proportions. Just like that McDonald, or whatever his name was, must have felt when he was riding high in the parliament, as someone called “Jerome” let us know in his marvelous explanation of the expenses cock up. The problem is that fellows like Macbeth do not usually survive such a fall. What are prisons built for, if not for those with some tragic flaws. Can you explain that Jerome, or are you in fact harry from StLuis who has recently attended some French lessons?

  94. Thanks, again, Vronsky – for your superb analysis at 11:34am, 4.11.12.

  95. Oh come on any outfit that is preparing to move its entire HEADQUARTERS to SAINSBURYS NINE ELMS “disabled toilet” with a linked secret entrance at CLAPHAM NORTH “DEEP SHELTER” is very likely to make other incredibly “iffy” decisions.

  96. Screechingly OTT piece by Mad Mel here. But the history is accurate. PIE operated around the loony left of the spectrum, and it was not then considered right-on by smart lefties to tell its propagandists to fuck off. I’m not sure I disagree with her conclusion either, that the sexualisation of children by the MSM has a lot to do with paedophilia.

    Warning: Frightening pic of Savile
    …and a wholly unsexualised shot of Rihanna displaying her assets customary chaste garb…it’s the Mail, stupid.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2221078/Jimmy-Savile-liberal-left-encouraged-sexualisation-children.html

  97. “In the 1950s the Chancellor of the Exchequer Harold Macmillan put the financial benefits of cigarettes over the nation’s health, records show.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7427001.stm

    I think that should read…Tory shareholders were making a lot of money out of it!.

  98. re KOMODO and MAD MEL …. yes well back in those PIEish times MAD MEL was a Guardian leftie journo herself now she’s a “what’s not to like?!” unappologetic DRONE attack enthusiast/lover. Yuk.

  99. Komodo,

    Frightening indeed, like a komodo charge; filching, fraud, theft, debauchery, torture and murder and their human protagonists lay bare to us as the ‘awakening looms’ – yet fear has no meaning as progress unfolds.

  100. Oh, yes, Ian. She was. Might be entertaining to see what she said then, mightn’t it? Sadly, that was pre interweb. And I don’t think her first paper, the Hemel Hempstead Evening Post-Echo was a hotbed of Marxism, either. It was owned by the Thomson Organisation and annoyed the print unions immensely.

    She only got “Judeo-Christian values” into the MM once…didn’t mention the holocaust at all. Maybe she’s mel-lowed?

    Nevermind, I share your anger even if I don’t always say so.

  101. Courtenay Barnett,
    to my horror, I have just noticed that you already and quite unashamedly claim as well as portion up the prize that I so greatly deserve. But should not a decent hunter wait before the game is in the bag? Even worse is that you are trying to bribe Craig by offers to buy his book. As you obviously try to make me to up your pathetic bribe, you are forcing me to conjure up a better option. Feeling raped, like that double A from sweden, I have no choice and propose to Craig that if he ever gets to Lyon, we have a modest grande bouffe in the Villa Florentine.

  102. Another KOMODO n MAD MEL passing point … posted fraternally. The RELEASE COLLECTIVE in the PIEish era had to discus and decide on the matter (haven’t the date immediately to hand). I worked full time at RELEASE at that time and know for certain sure RELEASE voted not to support PIE activities. It was important for RELEASE bewcause it had a postal address groups/activists could use and it had to take a stand because that generous positive pro community asset was being PIE compromised.

  103. King of nothing

    4 Nov, 2012 - 1:46 pm

    It’s quite simple. Politicians live in The Land of Magic. Where’s my ton?

  104. I think it’s safe to say PIE sullied everything it touched, Ian.

  105. Komodo,
    it is difficult to understand what you mean by “PIE operated around the loony left of the spectrum”. Can you be more specific next time. I doubt it that jimmy needed any indoctrination from the “liberal left” to fuck around, as that stupid rag is trying to insinuate. Pedophilia and rape has no political affiliation. That moron of a woman could have just as well written that Jimmy was encouraged by the queen and the pope to carry on whatever he was up to, when so honoured. Maybe she just confuses liberal with the libertine of Marquis de Sade variety, who was almost exclusively either and aristocrat or a member of the higher clergy. The tastes of aristocracy have probably not changed much since 18th century. Who is unconvinced, should look up the contacts of the famous pimp and murder Marc Dutroux from Belgium. I recommend
    http://www.whale.to/c/dutrouxnihoul.html for a starter.

  106. Karel, you say : “But “dei” is the more common abbreviated form of “degli” like “isn’t” is an equivalent of “is not”.

    I of course stand (provisionally) corrected – do you think you could let me have a source for that, preferably in the form of a grammar (I can access most of them)?

    Thank you in advance!

  107. technicolour

    4 Nov, 2012 - 2:44 pm

    “the sexualisation of children by the MSM has a lot to do with paedophilia” – really? Isn’t that rather like saying that rape has a lot to do with women wearing short skirts?

    In fact, go way back before the mainstream media and girls of 12 and younger were being sold off as brides. Like rape, paedophilia is the brutal exercise of power.

    Not good to see girls exploited and dumbed down for the sake of commerce, of course. But ‘the Mail made me do it’ is hardly a defence.

  108. re KOMODO and others re PIE in the PIE era – my take from living thru it is that PIE was another expression of contemporaries challlenging the status quo of the time re sexuality … the Underground Press / Counter Culture call it what you will media was full of instances of all kinds – with PIE deep down I can somehow imagine a idealistic adult individual believing that they could somehow have a loving peado relationship but I dont believe that in reality they could and certainly many others if such a concession was tolerated would have been incredibly exploitative and abusive. The practice simply should not be made legal or conceded. During the RELEASE decision discussions I very much had in mind the Soho Porn industry and others who would prove unprincipled and disgustingly exploitative. Rather like is the experience re other matters. Well you only have to think of the Fred West environment to know that anything would be likely there.

  109. Karel: I meant that PIE, when seeking publicity, went for ultra-radical outlets. I am not suggesting that Harriet Harman was responsible for Savile, but I agree with Mad Mel, reluctantly, that her proposed legalisation of child porn could well have stemmed from her contacts on the far left.In those days, the Labour Party had a leftist component. For the rest, Mel Phillips is a well-known lunatic, and as I said her article is over the top.

    Technicolour: “the sexualisation of children by the MSM has a lot to do with paedophilia” – really? Isn’t that rather like saying that rape has a lot to do with women wearing short skirts?
    Fair point. But I think it’s more the result of my trying to compress the argument into a sentence. Mel’s going for the Mail’s readership, as well, to which your objection might not be such a problem. I’ll suggest, rather, that the more barriers you put between the paedophile and his victim, the better. If children were not encouraged to imitate the signals of sexual availability, that would be a partial barrier. I’d also suggest that regarding sex generally as a commodity rather than a part of a loving relationship is not helpful: the ball for that being in Mel’s capitalist court this time.

  110. It seems to me Melanie Phillips has got her knickers in a twist.

    I agree society prepares our children physically to make love by education; and so it should. That is ‘ethical grooming’ and quite different from ‘immoral grooming’ that attempts to make a child subservient to licentious sex.

    She litters a page with “..paedophilia is most pronounced in areas where the traditional family has been smashed” is a sweeping statement corrupting implication and made by a lack of understanding and knowledge.

    Respect for young life in society has been proved absent when soldiers murder and rape young boys and girls, when wire pulling drones kill innocent children, when infants are left to starve from malnutrition and treatable disease and when human predators paint over respect to control their prey and selfishly satisfy their own desires.

  111. She ALWAYS has her knickers in a twist, Mark. And she staunchly defends the “right” of Israel to kill civilians. But this issue is not about that. Should we only admit the opinions we want to read? Or are our minds fixed in concrete?

    Anyway, as always, I’k glad to provoke discussion.

  112. Wrt Scotland’ independence debate, here’s another interesting site:

    http://republicancommunist.org/blog/tag/city-of-london/

  113. No this is not about the apologies to murder of Israeli’s, she is now being apologetic about the alleged murders of children, no change there then. To make out that those who, by the good fortune of a better education and high standing, although failed to adhere to the morals and rules society is set upon, have nothing to do with it, their intelligence did not stop them doing what they did, but it was the nasty lefties who ‘s liberalism and laid back hippydom has poisoned society with their child abuse agenda.

    I would have thought that covering up this pile of manure any further would land you with dirty boots, what a conniving back room operator. The sexualisation of our children is not down to left or right, its down to the fact that the system we are living under has never been reformed that it has carried on regardless of the law and that due to these outlandish and old fraternal bonds, these people never got prosecuted or told that they are abusing young children ruining their life’s.

    To make out that a well educated elite, politicians and leading lights in industry are not able to think for themselves and have no understanding of right or wrong, are so inept as to be led astray by a liberal left, can only come from a disturbed brain.

    I think Melanie’s journalism is very much tainted by her lack of sexual pleasure and I would like to give her some advice, cause matchmaking will most definitely fail, do swap hands Mel.

  114. Mad Mel is just part of the fake BBC. Irrelevant inaccurate and part of the marketing dept. of UK plc.

  115. Should read before post…
    should read ‘of murder by the Israeli’s’ sorry.

  116. “I’m not sure I disagree with her conclusion either, that the sexualisation of children by the MSM has a lot to do with paedophilia.”

    Not by the MSM, in my book. Paedophilia is not something that arrived recently, god knows. And are the MSM responsible for bikinis for 7-8 year olds being sold in our shops? Or T shirts for kids with inappropriate slogans on them? Or ‘nail bars’ for little girls as I saw on TV not so long ago?

    Not forgetting the whole “Toddlers & Tiaras” phenomenon which came to us (even Dublin, to my horror) from the USA.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_beauty_pageant

    These are things the MSM report on, sure. They don’t create them.

    As for Toddlers and Tiaras, I blame low-IQ mothers who try to live (and win beauty prizes) vicariously through their daughters – plus the fathers who don’t put a stop to it. The whole thing is sick. And the famous JonBenét Ramsey murder has never been solved.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey

  117. technicolour

    4 Nov, 2012 - 4:52 pm

    “I’ll suggest, rather, that the more barriers you put between the paedophile and his victim, the better. If children were not encouraged to imitate the signals of sexual availability, that would be a partial barrier.”

    Hmm. The victims of a crime should behave in such a way as to discourage the criminal. Everyone, by extension, should therefore stay indoors behind locks and wearing burkhas. It is an unsavoury ‘they were asking for it’ road to go down.

  118. technicolour

    4 Nov, 2012 - 4:55 pm

    “Everyone, by extension, should therefore stay indoors behind locks and wearing burkhas” – except that, of course, a vast amount of child abuse happens in the home.

    If a person finds a seven year old in a bikini ‘sexy’ I suggest that person has problems not caused by a style of swimwear (stupid though it is); don’t you think?

  119. Stuart Syvret is suggesting he is about to be thrown back in jail by the Jersey mob.

    http://stuartsyvret.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/just-ask-damn-question.html?commentPage=2
    (see comment at Sunday, 21 October 2012 18:34:00 BST)

  120. Well said Mark and Nevermind. Why is the hag allowed so much airtime on the BBC, The Moral Maze, Question Time etc etc.

    Nevermind are you saying that Joshua Rozenberg is not up to the job? :)

    He is yet another BBC type of course. Always dragged on to comment on legal outcomes in the style of Frank Gardner on terrrrism. Rozenberg was in the High Court when the Dr Kelly case was decided. A lugubrious looking individual.

  121. Technicolour
    ‘If a person finds a seven year old in a bikini ‘sexy’ I suggest that person has problems not caused by a style of swimwear (stupid though it is); don’t you think?’

    There are people who, by being physically, sexual, mentally and above all spiritually abused in their developing years, which is a very large percentage of the population, can be left with disorders which they have no power to cure or control.

    The argument against sexualising children comes from the same school of thought that says that alcohol is not a problem but some people abuse it the Tony Blair school of alcohol freedom.

    Research shows that the ready availability of alcohol increases its abuse more than any other factor. The police have universally agreed that the Blair/ alcohol lobby have done a vast amount of damage by changing the rules.

    Similarly with modest dressing, the de-sexualisation of female clothing may not affect those who are balanced and fully in control of their sexual desires, but many people, probably myself included are conscious of the fact that modest dressing and separation of the sexes vastly reduces temptation, not for seven year-olds in bikinis but for normal sexual attraction.

    The purpose of modest dressing in Islam is to protect society from those ‘ in whose hearts is a disease.’ Very stupidly in my opinion modern Muslim UK businessmen have decided to relax these rules. maybe they were all brought up my loving supportive families unlike me who was dumped at 7 years old in British boarding schools.

    Legislation should protect the vulnerable, and the strong can protect themselves.

  122. Technicolour you are right about what you say. But as parents we all have a responsibility to help children develop positive values and that includes grounded learning and guided action as children, while they are children. Rather than rushing them to adulthood and encouraging them towards adult dressing and false behavioural emulation.

    Surely paedophiles were poorly raised and educated (in their family/home environment) in what’s right and what’s plainly wrong. Its all part of the same, one, process, isn’t it?

  123. That should have read: the argument in favour of the liberalisation of dress for adults or children …’

  124. @ Mark Golding,
    We have a pretender in Karel who seeks to claim our prize:-
    “Courtenay Barnett,
    to my horror, I have just noticed that you already and quite unashamedly claim as well as portion up the prize that I so greatly deserve. But should not a decent hunter wait before the game is in the bag? Even worse is that you are trying to bribe Craig by offers to buy his book. As you obviously try to make me to up your pathetic bribe, you are forcing me to conjure up a better option. Feeling raped, like that double A from sweden, I have no choice and propose to Craig that if he ever gets to Lyon, we have a modest grande bouffe in the Villa Florentine.”
    First off Karel, get the facts right. Who said anything about buying a book off Craig Murray. Christmas is coming and both Mark Golding and I are prepared to accept the books in lieu of prize money, and here is proof:-
    “Courtenay,
    Yes, money has no memory – I would like a framed, signed photograph of the Craig family please – that would be splendid. Clark has my address.”
    We are on to your game now. You are trying to confuse Craig so instead of giving two books as prize money, he thinks that he was being bribed, then gives the 100 quid to the third runner up. Well you may get a bronze medal for a tricky try, but the prize goes 50/50 to the two gold medal winners. Nice try – better luck next time Karel.

  125. “If a person finds a seven year old in a bikini ‘sexy’ I suggest that person has problems not caused by a style of swimwear (stupid though it is); don’t you think?”

    Yes, sure. I was sexually abused at the age of 8 by a neighbour in his 60s. And I was always dressed very conservatively, given that my family was very religious and we didn’t have much money, so my mother made all my clothes.

    But is it really a good idea to dress 7 year olds as if they were 17? They themselves are not unaware of the connotations. TV has made sure of that. Isn’t commodifying the sexuality of women bad enough without starting when they’re little girls?

    I’m looking at 12 year olds on the streets that look like 16 year olds did in my childhood, and it worries me. Can children not have a childhood anymore?

  126. The now prevalent argument that adults should be able to do what they like , in dress or sexual behaviour, amongst themselves is twisted by paedophiles that they can agree amongst themselves to do what they like in front of or to children. Savile described himself as ‘bad’ not criminal and the chattering classes tended to agree with him, as did the sexualised people who were drawn to the professions of child protection, child residential care.

    The chattering classes of sexual liberalisation like Craig carry a heavy responsibility for not ensuring better standards of whistle-blowing in these areas because they are the ones who broke down the previously existing social norms. They did nothing to protect even the children in their own families, let alone those vulnerable children in care, from the increasing normality of adult sexual predation. That is why Craig describes the problem as ‘low-hanging fruit’ rather than crime.

    Loathsome, self-excusing, liberal failing to take responsibility for their own destructive behaviour.

  127. “That is why Craig describes the problem as ‘low-hanging fruit’ rather than crime.”

    No, Guano, he described certain named individuals as ‘low hanging fruit’ among a bunch of criminals. Their backgrounds were already known.

  128. The children of sexually liberal adults like Craig and like my ex. frequently get to the age of 20 or 30 unable to achieve anything either socially or academically because, even though they themselves came from stable, loving, faithful families, they splattered their own families with the shit from their own self-anointed sexual freedom like Norfolk pig slurry.

    Last time I went to Norfolk the smell was everywhere. In the all pervading atmosphere of sexual liberalisation, paedophiles like Savile get away with criminal acts because no-one can call them to account any more.

  129. By the time you’ve read to the end of this, you’ll probably think I’m an unconditional supporter (or perhaps a close relative) of Mr MacShane. Rest assured I’m not. He deserved what he got…and more.

    But still, I’m puzzled by the amount of stick he’s getting on this board, both from Craig’s initial blog and almost all of the commenters. Compared to a lot of his MP peers, the amounts he fiddled are relatively small, but he seems to be coming into much more savage criticism here than any of the other fiddling MPs.

    I advance this with some hesitation, but could the reason not be that, as regards Craig, Mr MacShane was a minister at the FCO during Craig’s time in Uzbekistan and, as regards the commenters here, Mr MacShane is openly (and many would say excessively) pro-Israel?

    I wonder if, for example, Mr George Galloway, if in the same situation, would be adjudged worthy of an individual blog and receive all these comments.

  130. Guano 4 Nov, 2012 – 5:24 pm
    “Similarly with modest dressing, the de-sexualisation of female clothing may not affect those who are balanced and fully in control of their sexual desires, but many people, probably myself included are conscious of the fact that modest dressing and separation of the sexes vastly reduces temptation, not for seven year-olds in bikinis but for normal sexual attraction.”

    Sure let’s lock up our daughters to save them from ourselves. And the homos. Not that I’m gay mind but after a drink or ten. you know, your arse looks good. It’s ok behind closed doors, right? Men holding hands and all that. Must have been that last trip to Brighton. Or was it Cairo? Tempatation everyblinkingwhere. Kids gagging furit. It’s ok behind closed doors, right? Shush. Please silence the children in the back. I am so friggin lost. Get me another whiskey please.

    Sorry, what were we talking about?

  131. Phil
    Can’t cope with truth? Don’t worry the British soap establishment media will keep you focussed on the horrible deeds of a dead man Savile. I didn’t think this bunch of liberal atheists would be able to handle a pinch of truth for more than two seconds before groping for their whiskeys and calling me mad.
    Makes you sweat like Malaria, eh? Have a good shout and you’ll feel much better.

  132. Jerôme 4 Nov, 2012 – 6:42 pm
    “I’m puzzled by the amount of stick he’s getting on this board”

    Speaking for myself it is nothing personal. I follow westminster details so little I barely knew who he was before this.

    What I rail against is the arrogance. That he stole but, being of the ruling class, will not be prosecuted. And he knows it. It isn’t a flaw in his character, he is behaving exactly to type.

  133. Courtenay,
    you are a confused man or perhaps a woman. What should do with statements like “Yes, money has no memory”??? I have heard such nonsense before but never quite understood it. In my advanced age, I have neither money nor memory but can, when pleasantly drunk, still read the trash that you have written. Unless you are a fetishist or incorrigibly infantile I do not believe that you want “a framed, signed photograph of the Craig family”. What would you do with it? Can you tell us? Run with it to Sotheby’s or Christie’s? I guess not. You will probably tell us later that it was only a feeble joke of yours but I have to suppress my tears to laugh.

    I am not trying to confuse Craig. Why should I? You have no sense of humor Courtnay. This deficiency is inborn and you will not get any better as you age. Are you a schoolboy by any chance? Trying to get some O levels? Or is it something else that schoolboys are trying to get nowadays?

    I do not want a bronze medal, which you probably have not got anyway. But I have some at home which I can send you as a consolation prize, all probably worth more than 100 quid. I am not a runner up but you are. Only the sphinx and Craig knows.

  134. Jesus Karel – lighten up.

    I am a man. I have a profession, I have a family, I have a life.

    My blogging here is just to exchange ideas on things that I have some interest in.

    Not trying to score any points now.

    Cheers.
    CB

  135. @ Guano,

    Not here “chattering” but bantering and reasoning in response to your comment:-

    ” The chattering classes of sexual liberalisation like Craig carry a heavy responsibility for not ensuring better standards of whistle-blowing in these areas because they are the ones who broke down the previously existing social norms. They did nothing to protect even the children in their own families, let alone those vulnerable children in care, from the increasing normality of adult sexual predation. That is why Craig describes the problem as ‘low-hanging fruit’ rather than crime.”
    I am not sure that you can blame all on Craig Murray or the “chattering classes of sexual liberalisation”. I really can’t see Murray condoning or ignoring sexual predatory conduct directed against minors. But – Murray is more than able to speak for himself.
    Would it not be more honest to acknowledge that sexual abuses have occurred for several generations, pre-dating the current crop of scandals. If liberalism is to blame for anything – it might be for the greater good. Consider the Catholic church and deference to the infallibility of the “Holy Father”. Well liberals did challenge where conservatives dare not go. Look at the undeniable history of sexual abuse that was so hidden in times gone by when deference to authority and all the more so Godly authority, was the order of the day. In the US, in Ireland, in England and the truth comes out full force in the Sandusky case in the US. It was the subscription to the correctness or and deference to the standards of those in authority that prevented teachers, parents, and concerned others from whistle blowing on the sexual transgressions, molestations and predatory behavior of Father, Coach or abusive teacher, where in a more liberal and honest environment the truth would have greater acceptance and room for emergence once concerned and informed persons spoke out. This must be a point that you can honestly take into account and give some credit where it is due to liberal thinking.
    Subject to correction, I read of two famous persons who were pedophiles ( or suspected to be so in the case of Charles Dodgson – better known as Lewis Carroll – an Oxford mathematician). One was the famous artist Edvard Munch and the other was the person who wrote Alice in wonderland, a mathematician and Anglican deacon to boot.
    I do not share all the views of Craig Murray, and you ought not to as well once you have a free and inquiring mind. It is that same very free and inquiring mind that would lead to questioning:-
    i) Why should this or that person in authority get away with this or that when the average person in society at large would be soundly punished for such conduct. The conservative approach is to go merrily along with the status quo and not question it for better or worse.
    ii) The establishment cover-up is more a conservative predilection than contrasting conduct in public administration of challenging and question authority gone awry ( note: one Craig Murray) which must far more readily be affixed to a liberal predisposition.
    iii) Conduct ( read: misconduct) in the armed forces is a perfect example. In the US with women now recruited to service in arenas previously reserved exclusively for males, the rape and abuse by their male counterparts is now steadily coming out. Is it more likely to be the liberal dissident or the run-of- the-mill conservative who is more likely to be the whistle blower about such misconduct.
    Ultimately, if one is to be fully honest, then a mere political or ideological label does not provide assurance that right will always be done. What I am saying is that given a range of ideological and political mind-sets, then the ones who challenge and question the status quo more readily – namely the left wing and liberal ones – are the ones more likely to shine the light where sexual misconduct sits hiding in the dark.
    It is not accurate and it is not right to simply lay the blame in the court of liberalism without first thinking through some of the dynamic of the thought processes that incline to this or that type of conduct. So liberals are more sexually open than conservatives ( and I have made a guess at this one – along the lines that liberals when last I checked were not then nor now inclining to Victorian puritanical values) – but can one then leap from this “fact” to a conclusion that all wrong is attributable to liberal openness?
    Freeing one’s self from the constraints of sexual guilt does not automatically lead to bedding the underage, the mentally challenged or the ones who should be left to enjoy their youth unmolested. Hard to say that liberalism that advocates consensual sex between consenting adults – versus – under cover activities of priests, misdirected custodians of one type or another is all attributable to “liberalism”. How do you explain Father’s ‘peccadilloes’ with the boys in the choir – due to liberalism I guess?
    So – Guano – let the debate begin.

  136. Hang 'em High

    4 Nov, 2012 - 7:41 pm

    “I’m puzzled by the amount of stick he’s getting on this board”

    Yeah, me too. So the guy is a thief, a liar, a hypocrite and probably a traitor as well. Big deal, what’s the fuss about?

    O/T but please sign my petition to get Peter Sutcliffe paroled, the poor man has suffered enough.
    http://www.freepetersutcliffe.org

  137. Habbabkuk,
    if the word “dei” excites you so much that you can no longer sleep and eat then look it up under.

    http://www.romanesco.it/dialetto.shtml

  138. technicolour

    4 Nov, 2012 - 7:47 pm

    Guano, you can twist yourself in knots trying to rationalise the proscriptions and diktats of extremist Islam (which correspond with those of extremist Catholicism in the past) but I’m afraid the idea that the way to stop violent and brutal behaviour is to segregate and cloister potential victims (in this case women and children) results in violence and brutality, and leads to an insanity of its own. Part of which is the assumption that the majority of men can take no responsibility for their actions or mindset, which is really quite absurd and insulting. As Phil’s post makes clear.

    Dreolin, how awful. And of course I agree with you and Villager: that the state of childhood is one in which sexuality and gender appearance should play no part; certainly not when imposed by adults. And that this insistence on forcing girls into emulating the most exaggerated form of adult female display is both ridiculous and demeaning.

  139. Courtenay,
    I apologize for being too brutal. It is the bloody Sunday syndrome.

  140. Guano 4 Nov, 2012 – 6:57 pm
    “Phil Can’t cope with truth?”

    I lack your certainty and can only talk from my experience. So please indulge me.

    Long ago I used to take a lot of drugs. No doubt you would see this as a flaw and as I get old I might agree. A bit. Anyway, two of my long term partners in crime were second generation british muslim, bought up in devout families. None of their siblings indulged like we did. Some siblings became devout themselves.

    No doubt you will say my friends were corrupted by external influences, by eastenders or me or something. So let me continue a little.

    One of my muslim friends and I went on trips to two muslim countries. Being the depraved failures we were we sought out the local sinners. And did they exist. It was great. Happy days. And great gear.

    I also saw rooms of men and boys, all muslim except me, drooling over dancing girls much like the men in the titty bars of soho. Except for the smoke that is.

    The thing I found odd was that I never got to know one woman. I would only get a passing nod even from the host’s wife. Which was a shame because I like the company of women. I can even be with them without thinking how great it would be to give them one.

    All I am saying is that people are complex and all sorts are everywhere. No doubt you think all my acquaintances bad muslims. Maybe worthy of judgement. But you only like people exactly like you. Because you have the truth.

  141. technicolour

    4 Nov, 2012 - 8:06 pm

    great (interesting, thoughtful) post, Courtenay.

  142. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    4 Nov, 2012 - 8:14 pm

    Phil;

    “No doubt you will say my friends were corrupted by external influences, by eastenders or me or something. So let me continue a little”

    .

    Just an FYI. The etymology of ‘assassin’….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins

  143. Karel,

    “Courtenay,
    I apologize for being too brutal. It is the bloody Sunday syndrome.”

    I am a lawyer and been told more than once that my kind don’t have feelings.

    So – you would have to be a lot more brutal to get me upset.

    We remain blogging friends.

    Cheers.
    CB

  144. I am with Guano on this one regarding our moral regard to over sexualisation.

    Do we really know how this society has an effect on individuals. We can only imagine what our subconscious is up to.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex

    So Technicolour how the fuck can you control what is going on deep in your sub conscious.

    It is how you react to immoral subversions and that is is represented by the moral fabric of society.

    Presently that fabric is tainted. Wake up!

  145. Ben Franklin (Head Honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations) 4 Nov, 2012 – 8:14 pm
    “The etymology of ‘assassin’…”

    I’d forgotten we have a Head Honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations! Ave an eart guvnor, don’t knick me, it was me ard life that dunnit.

    As for the assasins: wrong time, wrong place, wrong everything. Phew, lucky escape. No, seriously, persian women are hot.

  146. Well said, Courtenay. 4 Nov, 2012 – 7:36 pm

    My father was a conservative and a Catholic. When I told him what had happened to me, his decision was to take me to see a local priest, a priest of the ultra-conservative Catholic Church. And HIS decision, in his wisdom, was that I should be made to go to Confession. Which was duly done, and where the priest asked me if I had “taken pleasure in it”. He then gave me penance and absolution – two things I knew all about as I had only a year before been ‘prepared’ for “First Confession”. I was (thereby) told that it was all my fault. Nobody did anything about the paedophile. He was left to his own devices.

    At that age, I knew nothing about sex, nothing about the “birds and bees”. I was brought home, given no advice of any kind, and the subject was never mentioned again before my parents died.

    Meanwhile, terrible damage had been done, although I had no understanding of the connection (between sexual abuse and my subsequent problems) before the Ryan and Murphy reports came out in Ireland. Subsequent to that I saw various people (victims of abuse) interviewed on TV – including three British ex-public-schoolboys who talked about their own difficulties – and a lot of lightbulbs went off for me.

    Shame and guilt are the legacy of sexual abuse of children. And it’s the victims’ shame and guilt. They have it even if they haven’t been forced into a Confession box. They just cope with it as best they can.

    I have been a very liberal, atheist parent. For obvious reasons.

    Guano, you simply don’t make any sense. I agree with Technicolour, above.

  147. “and a lot of lightbulbs went off for me.”

    I don’t think that’s what I meant. :)

  148. Jay 4 Nov, 2012 – 8:18 pm
    “Oedipus_complex”

    Ah, dr freud. Another load of gobbledegook based on some truth expanded into a religion.

    “how the fuck can you control what is going on deep in your sub conscious”

    Well not with psychoanalysis. That’s for ripping off the middle classes by getting them to endlessly regurgitate their problems at a handsome fee.

    Try some self hypnosis. Or pull your socks up. Or get drunk.

  149. I am very sorry to read of your experiences Dreoilin. Cannot imagine what it must have been like for you. You must be very strong. Appreciate that you have shared it here.

    And Courtenay, if they ever come knocking at this door and I get banged up, I would like you to be my ‘brief. LOL as Rebekah would say.

    Was Cameron referring to her or the horse here?
    In one message, Cameron thanks Brooks for letting him ride one of her family’s horses, saying it was “fast, unpredictable and hard to control but fun”, it is claimed.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/04/david-cameron-texts-rebekah-brooks

  150. Denis MacShane in Wikipedia:

    “He worked for the BBC from 1969 to 1977,[9] including as a newsreader and reporter on Wolverhampton Wanderers for BBC Radio Birmingham. He changed his surname to his mother’s maiden name at the request of his employers.”

    Couldn’t have him called Matyjaszek, could we. Imagine, “And now we have a report from Denis Matyjaszek”. You’d frighten the listeners.

    What a weak and cowardly man.

  151. doug scorgie

    4 Nov, 2012 - 8:49 pm

    Jerome
    “…I’m puzzled by the amount of stick he’s [MacShane] getting on this board, both from Craig’s initial blog and almost all of the commenters. Compared to a lot of his MP peers, the amounts he fiddled are relatively small, but he seems to be coming into much more savage criticism here than any of the other fiddling MPs.”

    MacShane is the latest in a long line of corrupt politicians to be found with their fingers in the till. He isn’t being singled out here; he just happens to be in the news at the moment.

    You say the amounts he fiddled are relatively small. Committing fraud against the taxpayer is not small but serious. A man in a position of trust stealing from his employers (the taxpayer) should be held to account.

    Where you say:
    “I wonder if, for example, Mr George Galloway, if in the same situation, would be adjudged worthy of an individual blog and receive all these comments.”

    I am an admirer and supporter of George Galloway. If he committed fraud on the taxpayers I would be the first to condemn him; the sense of betrayal would be huge, believe me, I would not defend him.

  152. Thanks, Mary. I don’t think I ever imagined that I’d share it here. But then we probably never imagined the current maelstrom in the BBC either.

  153. @Dreoilin
    That’s a tough deal mate. Really tough. Take pride that you are better than that hand.

    It’s hard to know what to say.

  154. @ Mary,

    ” And Courtenay, if they ever come knocking at this door and I get banged up, I would like you to be my ‘brief. LOL as Rebekah would say.”

    If I weren’t married, I might come knocking sooner for intellectual stimulation – of course.

    LOL – as they say.
    CB

  155. Doug Scorgie 4 Nov, 2012 – 8:49 pm
    “I am an admirer and supporter of George Galloway. If he committed fraud on the taxpayers I would be the first to condemn him.”

    Me too. And just to add that Galloway has been falsely accused of fraud on a scale few could put up with.

  156. technicolour

    4 Nov, 2012 - 9:28 pm

    Bless you, Dreoilin. I think if someone can overcome an experience like that, and go on to be a loving and decent and humane person and parent, it makes the cries of ‘we are living in an immoral society and therefore it is almost bound to make us immoral’ rather shrill, or hollow.

    That’s not to say that one doesn’t sometimes absorb some of the awfulness around us. I find that for peace of mind one has to accept those random inputs, and then question them, peacefully. They invariably wither away under the light of enquiry. Hope that helps.

  157. technicolour

    4 Nov, 2012 - 9:32 pm

    ps sorry, didn’t mean ‘bless you’ in a religious sense, or a patronising one – in the sense of ‘thank you and may all continue to be well with you’, though.

  158. I could not read any further than the first paragraph and could not be bothered to read any of the over 764 comments.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9652766/David-Cameron-fears-a-chill-wind-blowing-across-the-Atlantic.html

    by Matthew d’Ancona
    03 Nov 2012

    At the Bicom annual dinner last Tuesday, I had the privilege to meet and then hear Ehud Barak, a true Israeli hero, speak about the challenges and opportunities facing his nation. Now defence minister, and a former prime minister, Barak is too authentically military in his bones to rattle sabres. He told the gathering organised by Bicom – the marvellous organisation which fosters links between Britain and Israel – that his country did not seek confrontation with Iran over its nuclear ambitions. But, with a silken clarity far more powerful than growled menace, he made clear that Israel will do what it has to do if those ambitions are not verifiably curtailed.

    /…

  159. I feel so sorry that this happened to you, Dreolin,
    you must have felt so confused and hurt by the ignorance sticking plaster they offered you for solace. You must have felt a jolt when Bill Maloney was talking of his childhood past in Ireland and of his parents being abused by Catholic priests.
    I feel humbled by you sharing this with us and I wish I could make you feel better.

    @ CB, thanks for the thoughtful piece, you are growing on me.

  160. Thanks for your kindness, folks. Phil, Technicolour, Nevermind.
    I’m still not sure what possessed me to write all that tonight, here. I haven’t said it anywhere else online up to now. So I thank you for your understanding.

    I’ll sign off for tonight. Take care, all.

  161. Lightbulbs came on Dreoilin; the epiphany is rewarding as is sharing it.

    The confession box, the Hell-fire club (The Essay on Woman), the torture chambers, the shadowy corners of St. Ermin’s Hotel, the black camps and the thick hermetic walls at Vauxhall Cross cover the immoral like a veil; closed doors that hide fear, debauchery, pain, deception and treachery.

    Yet a revelation is forming as information and disclosure proliferate our lives. You are part of that Dreoilin as is most of us and I thank you for your honesty.

  162. Thank you, Dreolin, for being so calm and collected and for trusting us with your very personal information.
    Good night.

  163. @ CB, thanks for the thoughtful piece, you are growing on me.

    Nevermind ( pun intended)

  164. @ Dreolin,

    ” Thanks for your kindness, folks. Phil, Technicolour, Nevermind.
    I’m still not sure what possessed me to write all that tonight, here. I haven’t said it anywhere else online up to now. So I thank you for your understanding.”

    Quite profound – hope I did not hurt any feelings.

    What can I say?

  165. Sorry it happened.

  166. Yes indeed, Denis MacShane, what a crook.

    His obsession with rooting out non existent anti-Semitism needs looking into.

    How much time can some one spend – being paid by us tax payers – on doing absolutely nothing?

  167. @ Dreoilin,

    Those are very brave posts you made.Like others i don’t know really what to say except full empathy and respect to you to have battled through.I understand,without going into details.Guess i’m not brave enough yet.

    Sleep well…

  168. What on earth has us so far from our ideals.

    We are naturaly inclined to protect our young and work to provide and maintain.

    With our ethical purpose to do right we can move forward, presently we fail consider the need to right as whats most important for our common purpose.

    The failings of all our politicians and media to do right by concensus has become a

    main stummbling block in our need to nurture.

    The trouble with bad apples is they affect the other fruit.

    Where are all the Good Men?

  169. Another obscenity is found in yesterday’s Independent on Sunday.

    Unbelievably, the editorial refers to Greece and Ireland as ‘Gaza strip countries’.

    ‘Europe and Germany needs to be told shared guilt equates to shared responsibility, as distinct from the current amoral pragmatism where, to protect continental bankers, ‘Gaza strip countries’ such as Ireland and Greece are ‘permitted’ to become the fiscal equivalent of a ‘stabilised’ methadone user.’

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/eu-good-child-must-get-bolder-3281716.html

    Totally repugnant about all the people in these three countries. The editor is listed as a John Mullin who came to the IoS by way of the Guardian and the Scotsman. He should be telling us who made the countries in question poor and who the real oppressors are.

  170. Hmm. The victims of a crime should behave in such a way as to discourage the criminal. Everyone, by extension, should therefore stay indoors behind locks and wearing burkhas. It is an unsavoury ‘they were asking for it’ road to go down.

    If you’ll just let me know where you live, and turn off your burglar alarm….my belief is that the best way to avoid crime is not to invite it. There’s no need to put up strawman arguments.

  171. Just one more day of the rhetoric and the shouting from Yankeeland. There has been so much shouting from a desperate Obama and his stand up Bill Clinton that their voices are hoarse. Both BBC News and Sky News have overdone the coverage. There must be hundreds of their employees over there. Perhaps they would like to stay on.

    James Petras gives a good account of the shindig and what lies behind.

    From the “Lesser to the Greater Evil”and the Demise of Critical Liberalism
    US Elections

    by James Petras / November 3rd, 2012
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/11/from-the-lesser-to-the-greater-eviland-the-demise-of-critical-liberalism/

    ~~~
    Cameron has gone off to the UAE and Saudi Arabia (with Hammond and Gardner in tow!) to sell some more Typhoons and to make arrangements for the accommodation of our fighter planes if and when war against Iran breaks out. Some Typhoons are already out there. Vile people.

    David Cameron arrives in the Gulf for defence talks
    {http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20202058}

  172. Nevermind are you saying that Joshua Rozenberg is not up to the job?

    He is yet another BBC type of course. Always dragged on to comment on legal outcomes in the style of Frank Gardner on terrrrism. Rozenberg was in the High Court when the Dr Kelly case was decided. A lugubrious looking individual.

    You’d look lugubrious if you were Mel Phillips’ husband. FACT.

  173. Karel, you old bluffer, I’m sure both of us are sleeping and eating properly.

    I think you’ll have to admit defeat on the “amici degli amici” v. (your) “amici dei amici” point. The source you kindly linked to is a website (not a grammar) on the Roman dialect (not standard Italian), and anyway what it says would, if anything, actually contradict your theory (you would have to say “amici degl’amici”).

    Sorry,, and better luck next time. Better to stick to the Germanic languages?

  174. Cameron and Hammond have just been shown by the state broadcaster coming down the steps from their aircraft in Dubai.
    Both are wearing poppies. Both display their fondness for remembering the dead but have no feelings of guilt or moral scruples in planning more deaths.

    Beware of BBC Breakfast this morning. They are about to have the Military Wives Choir on who ‘will tell us how singing has got them through some difficult times’. All part of the big build up to Remembrance Sunday, now stolen by the warmongers.

  175. yes, Komodo, for the sake of offering up like for like to her Schmarotzer column, either he is not up to it, and/or ‘Cassandra’ the fury can’t enjoy love, which explains her inate hatred for Palestinians trying to make ends meet in Ghaza. I think she is actually bi sexual, which is fine, but not unlike some closet homosexuals, dare not let on, shrill denial.

    She has given Britain’s right wing fascist a boost during the Breivig trial, the EDL loves her, indeed her writings have inspired this mass murderer and she will not get away from it, whatever she does or stabs with her little pen.

    She is trying everything to keep this status, fear not little children, Melanie will sort it all out, its all the fault of those homosexuals, you know.

    http://baxfail.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/call-that-an-agenda/

  176. I think Craig although you may not know it you answer your own question with the your posting directly below this one

  177. “Schmarotzer”…lol. Exactly.

    Exemplum, exemplum:

    http://www.niklaus-heeb.ch/Bilder_links/Vign_Schmarotzer_02.jpg

  178. @Jay
    5 Nov, 2012 – 7:40 am

    Sufficient numbers of the voting sheeple are informed enough today to realise that they and their needs are not represented in a so-called representative democracy:

    http://mierleeu.blogspot.be/

  179. David Cameron arrives in the Gulf for defence talks
    {http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20202058}

    Oh yes. ‘Defence’. Orwell again. UAE = Straits of Hormuz

    A reminder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hormuz_map.png

  180. Habbabkuk, I envy your obsession but it would be better for everyone if you found some other channels for appeasing it. I did not want to spend hours looking for la grammatica italiana on the internet so that I sent you the first entry I found. That you are not satisfied is your problem not mine. Apparently, you are convinced that no proper Italian is spoken in Rome. An interesting idea indeed. Try
    http://italiangrammar.blogspot.cz/2010/09/uso-dei-tempi-e-dei-modi-verbali.html
    if you can read it. It actually says it all in the title, you do not even have to open it. But perhaps It may be simpler for people like you to type “amici dei amici” into your google window. This morning I got 11 800 entries. Should you try to claim that they are all fake, then you will receive a letter from my lawyer in Milano and we can have a nice libel case. Are you a teacher or a zionist by any chance?

  181. doug scorgie

    5 Nov, 2012 - 11:05 am

    Off Topic
    I see that David Cameron is playing his role as Head of Sales to British arms dealers in the Gulf States. He wants to keep press coverage restricted though.

    From the Guardian today:
    “David Cameron has arrived in the Gulf at the beginning of a low-key arms trip aimed at persuading regional powers upset by Britain’s response to the Arab spring to buy more than 100 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets.”
    “Cameron, who is irritated by claims that he uses his overseas trips to sell defence equipment to countries with questionable human rights records, has made arrangements to minimise the media coverage of the trip.”
    “No 10 is restricting media coverage partly out of sensitivity to Saudi Arabia, which has been upset by Britain’s response to the Arab spring. Prince Mohammed Bin Nawaf Al Saud, the ambassador to London, recently broke with diplomatic protocol to say that Saudi Arabia was “insulted” by the decision of the Commons foreign affairs committee to investigate Britain’s relations with Saudi Arabia and Bahrain.”

    ”Downing Street denied that the prime minister was seeking to limit press coverage of the trip.”

    There is an old saying: Nothing is true until it is officially denied.

  182. He’s a troll, Karel. His mission is to post nothing remotely on topic but pick fights with other posters. Don’t feed him, tempting as it may be.

  183. Rowan Bosworth-Davies (rowans-blog.blogspot.com) does his usual forensic analysis of the situation and concludes that MacShane should and can be prosecuted.
    .
    He pertinently also notes that “earlier MPs who were also prosecuted for false accounting for expenses fraud, had their claims of Parliamentary privilege denied them”. Indeed so.

  184. Komodo,

    you are right. he is probably one of the friends of israel. A hasbara troll, to be more precise. It would be more amusing if they could find less stupid people. That man is either so ignorant to write his assumed name with an extra b or he wants to confuse us.

  185. And see mine earlier, MikeR-

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/11/the-denis-macshane-prize/#comment-377388

    Eric Illesley, ex-MP … was not reported to Labour’s disciplinary “star chamber” in 2009 unlike other MPs who have been charged, and thus was not told that he could not stand at the general election for the party.

    It was only after he was charged in May last year that the party acted, withdrawing the whip leaving the MP to sit as an Independent.

    He has now admitted he fraudulently claimed more than £14,000 in parliamentary expenses.

    Appearing at Southwark Crown Court, he admitted three charges of false accounting.

    The charges related to claims for council tax, maintenance, repairs and utility bills between 2005 and 2008.

    The answer to Craig’s question is: “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know.” Should that attract the prize, please donate to MAP.

  186. Off topic, but relevant.

    This from the BBC’s piece on the Gunpowder Plot:

    “The foiling of the plot had been expertly engineered by James I’s spymaster, Robert Cecil. Fawkes was subjected to various tortures, including the rack. Torture was technically illegal, and James I was personally required to give a licence for Fawkes to endure its ravages.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/people/guy_fawkes

  187. Hang 'em High

    5 Nov, 2012 - 12:36 pm

    “Cameron and Hammond have just been shown by the state broadcaster coming down the steps from their aircraft in Dubai. Both are wearing poppies. Both display their fondness for remembering the dead but have no feelings of guilt or moral scruples in planning more deaths.”

    “Selling arms to the Gulf is the best way to protect our defence industry ”
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/100187840/selling-arms-to-the-gulf-is-the-best-way-to-protect-our-defence-industry/

    Translation: Starting WW3 is the best way to distract the people of the West from the impending collapse of the economic kleptocracy called ‘fractional reserve banking’ and the crimes of the quasi-religous criminal mob that controls it, and who Dave is actually working for.

  188. technicolour

    5 Nov, 2012 - 12:41 pm

    “my belief is that the best way to avoid crime is not to invite it” – Komodo. You cannot be suggesting that Saville’s alleged victims (since we we were on the subject of paedopholia) were inviting it?

    “There’s no need to put up strawman arguments” – mine was a logical extrapolation of your attempted point. I don’t have a burglar alarm, as it happens, but I would not consider that a reason or justification for you to break into my home.

    Mark Golding: agree generally about the utter disregard for the safety and welfare of children in Iraq, Afghanistan and, on a different level, the sink estates here.

  189. You’ll find Illsley (see above) here:

    http://nyc.indymedia.org/media/text/boycott_is.txt

    Signing the Boycott Israel Campaign letter. The mist clears for a second. You won’t find Macshane here, unsurprisingly.

  190. Technicolour. I think you are being deliberately obtuse. You are arguing as if sex were a rational activity, and as if this particular perversion did not have many of the features of an addiction. I am NOT saying (any paedophile’s) victims are consciously inviting their attention. I am saying that even though they don’t want it*, that attention is drawn by behaviour and dress imitative of adult sexual behaviour and dress. Unconsciously.

    *but see various accounts of teenage girl groupie behaviour around pop stars. To pretend that, post-puberty, sex is not a major matter of curiosity and experimentation, in both sexes, is absurd.

  191. Readers may recall the plight of Malala Yousufzai, who was shot in the head by the Taleban.

    Stories are now emerging that she had not been shot at all. Perhaps this explains why:-

    * when she was originally pictured with her injury, the dressing was above her left eye, but recent pictures of her in hospital show no sign of any injury in that area.

    * photos of Malala in hospital show her with hair underneath her scarf? Any medial professional will tell you that her head would have been shaved as a matter of procedure before undergoing any form of surgery to that area.

    * the story was dropped like a stone from the media?

    I would invite readers to search for “Malala Yousufzai” on Google Images and look at the images for themselves. Seems like it could have been a psy-op to distract from the NATO murder of 11 Afghan women the previous week.

  192. Another point, her injury was not life threatening so why was this girl flown half-way around the planet to go to hospital in the UK (where the NHS is in decline through a lack of funding) when there are hospitals all over the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE to name a few) that are packed with the latest medical equipment at the best medical training money can buy?

  193. Karel, what’s the matter with you?

    “I envy your obsession….” : actually, it’s not an obsession, it’s simply that I’d prefer people who throw bits of a foreign language into an English text (to ompress, perhaps?)to get their grammar right.

    And not to try and bluff their way out once they’ve been corrected. Your latest link (yes, I can read Italian) concerns verbs – I hadn’t realised that “dei”, “degli”, etc, were verbal forms, but was under the foolish impression that they were forms of the definite article.

    Stick to Flemish, dear Karel – now there’s a real dialect for you…:)

    Tot ziens!

  194. Hang 'em High

    5 Nov, 2012 - 1:18 pm

    ‘why was this girl flown half-way around the planet to go to hospital in the UK’

    So BBC News24 and SkyNews could bring you an hour of ‘breaking news’ and live pictures of her police escorted ambulance taking the scenic route from the airport to the hospital at 10 mph.

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