Brilliant post. This insistence on terrorism as the worldwide bogeyman does nothing more than encourage us to fear and suspect those who look different and believe different things from us. I visited parliament as a teenager and on asking a security guard why the terrorist threat was displayed as “severe”, was told that it would be severe as long as Osama Bin Laden was alive. I’d put good money on it not having changed.

I still have absolutely no idea what Abu Qatada is supposed to have done and yet most of my colleagues and acquaintances seem to start foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of his name while asking what he did wrong on the Guerrdian’s CIF drew a torrent of nasty abuse. I think for you to add that he may well be unpleasant is a bit unnecessary because it shows that you too Craig may have been influenced by this media hype. You might as well say that about David Attenborough, Caroline Lucas or anybody else in the public eye that you don’t know personally. He may even be a whistleblower (you never know).

Sorry you are having such a horrible time with your health; look after yourself and hope you recover soon. You are doing a great job Craig, much appreciated

I noted Hauge and the BBC foaming at the mouth about this group in Nigeria that have possibly killed some hostages. They are ramping up the linke to al-Qaeda line again.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Yeah, this anti-biotics thing is much worse! I live in Qatar and whenever I tell people where I live, all I get is stupid bigotry. “Do you go to work on a camel? Are you safe from terrorists?” The media has hyped it up. But WE ARE THE MEDIA as Amanda Palmer would say, so we can change things.

Where are your statistics from? What’s the source?

1984 isn’t supposed to be a guidebook….

The media’s role here is quite sinister,’stepford-journalists’ peddling the government line to ‘harden’ public opinion on things like welfare, NHS, independence and now human rights. All done so that people will actually welcome these things being taken away from them.

Couldn’t agree more re: media reporting of terrorism. Still, this is more or less what we’ve come to expect of the media, isn’t it? It hasn’t really changed since The Power of Nightmares.

Where Abu Qatada is concerned, I don’t think his UK criminal record is relevant – the UK would expect to be able to extradite someone who’d committed a serious crime on UK soil even if they’d fled to a country where their record was clean. I’m not suggesting whether he should or shouldn’t be deported, simply that it’s not his UK criminal record which is relevant.

Once again the media pandering to the system putting forward false “truths”, the more I watch the news the more sceptical I become. This country has more cctv per head of population & wishes to adopt more draconian powers to invade upon more & more into peoples private\personal information. A lot of people quickly dismiss criticism of the government\system labelling those that do as lefties or conspiracy followers, its time those people wake up and see what’s happening, I don’t think even George Orwell would have believed some of the things that’s happening these days.

Top breaking news on the State Broadcaster’s channel

BREAKING NEWS:The Queen pulls out of Commonwealth Day service at Westminster Abbey as she continues to recover, Buckingham Palace says

soon to be replaced by the Huhne/Pryce sentences no doubt. BBC speculating on the length of the sentences. Appalling stuff they churn out. Wonder if they ever look inside themselves and examine how they are spending their lives.

Why is it that anything under the banner of Human rights bring out the deluge of self righteous smug buggers foaming at the mouth? 71 deaths from Terrorism? Over 400 British service men and women killed in the line of duty protecting YOUR freedom of speech, fighting in the country tat brought you the somewhat quaint idea of flying planes loaded with everyday people in to buildings full of everyday people. And Laura if people respond to the fact your work in Qatar with the responses you claim, your social set must be morons and the question is why surround yourself with such fuckwits is it to feel superior? Bottom line is antibiotics do not behead people on the Internet, and who ever said all Muslims are terrorists is a moron as well

Spot on, Craig. I know it’s really hackneyed to invoke Orwell at such times but it really is spooky how prophetic he was in anticipating all this. Emmanuel Goldstein as universal bogeyman and the Two minute hate… all to justify the never-ending wars. The Ministry of Truth, total surveillance…

The fact that the authorities are now having to big up Abu Qatada as the new bogeyman just shows how thin on the ground real bogeymen are. Pathetic. But an awful lot of people do seem to buy it uncritically. Especially if they are appearing on Question Time.

Further to what I said on the previous thread, I see that Dr Davies is promoting this EU outfit. No irony when you see some BigPharma names represented on its Board.

http://www.imi.europa.eu/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/Governance/IMI_GovBoard_Oct2012.pdf o

http://www.imi.europa.eu/content/home

Boomtownchav

Troll alert (another!)

KingofWelshNoir – I met Robin Cook after Question Time. Robin told me his wife had insisted he leave politics now for his own good. I am convinced he was a frightened man.

Robin Cook revealed the falsehood Of Al Qaeda a month before he was assassinated – Robin Cook died shortly after revealing the truth about Al Qaeda. Heart attack.

He was still alive when he was removed from his wife. She was not permitted to accompany him.

Bin Laden Stuff and nonsense.

Robin Cook RIP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=WWXitiZyDto

Antibiotic resistance is a BIG DEAL – only the elderly now even remember the days when you could scratch your hand on some rusty wire and die in agony from blood poisoning a couple of weeks later. When a simple ear infection could eat away until it drove you made with pain and eventually killed you. When women died of infections during and after childbirth… It’s too heart-redning even to think of those days coming back. And yet, the signs are they will.

An even bigger problem – a tidal wave two miles high, if you will – is Peak Oil. The best data we have suggests that around 2003 the amount of oil extracted from the ground reached its maximum. From now on it will relentlessly drop year by year, while the number of people depending on continues to rise – and each of them, on average, confidently expects to use more convenient, flip-of-a-switch power every year. Good grief, we are doing that just reading and commenting on this blog!

It’s over 60 years since John Kenneth Galbraith wrote “The Affluent Society”, predicated on the belief that the USA, at least, had reached a plateau of sustainable prosperity. Typically for an economist, Galbraith never once asked where that prosperity had come from or whether it would, in fact, last. Now it’s looking as if it won’t.

And Boomtownchav, don’t be silly. We’re not impressed.

Great post Craig. Mr Qatada is perfectly entitled to his views without the apparent harassment of the UK police on behalf of Theresa May. If they want to discuss terrorism and terrorists maybe they should start with the ‘Syrian Free Army’ that kidnapped 21 UN peacekeepers in the Golan Heights region. The day before they were seized , William Hague was announcing ‘none lethal’ support for these very people. Surely this is a much clearer example of ‘funding and supporting terrorism’ than anything Qatada can lay claim to.

A convincing comment ‘Andy’ – even a blinkered, subjective and limited mind can understand the relevance of your post – thank-you.

Have you got any figures on how many people were killed by the incompetence of our politicians?

For example those killed after being given infected blood imported from the American prison service, something our politicans still refuse to accept responsibility for, and refuse to compensate the victims of.

If nothing else Quatada is Like many people getting a giod deal out of the British taxpayer.

He as with others should be allowed to earn his keep.

I am sure given the right situation help society in one way or another.

Maybe he does already, I imagine he has the ability to unite some of those dissaffected and raise thise cultural and ethical standards missing.

Interesting to see how the BBC have spun the terrorism angle out of rather less alarmist cloth. Just been listening to the government’s chief medical officer Professor Dame Sally Davies on the Jeremy vine programme. She insisted she did not compare it to terrorism but said antibiotic resistance should be on the risk register and would probably kill us all before global warming (which is also on the register along with terrorism and goodness knows what else ).

Mark Golding – yes I’m aware Robin Cook claimed Al Qaeda was the Farsi word for the database, or something similar. I’ve also noted that a meme is being disseminated on the web alleging that Al Qaeda is also slang for the toilet in Arabic or something. If true, of course, it would bolster the claim that they don’t really exist in the manner claimed. But is it true? Or is it a piece of disinfo? I’ve no idea.

Qatada was made famous by none other than the other BBC (the private BBC/channel four). During the many various Muslim bashing programmes, Qatada was filmed pontificating that he will ban “the union Jack” and instead fly an Islamic flag over the Westminster. What more proof of evil deeds does anyone want??????

As for any ziofuckwit on the pay of the AIPAC et al posting crap on this site and elsewhere; leave these alone, no one sane will ever get involved in a debate with a dog that had shit on the pavement. Dogs are animals, and ziofuckwits are worse.

However scaremongering about antibiotics somehow never is going to give way to the whole solid science of phage therapy that will beat the pants of any antibiotics treatment. That will be a solution, and not have the desired effects of cutting the NHS drug bill by stopping the prescriptions of antibiotics, so that people will be dying of simpler infections too, a novel way of saving on the pensions and housing, prevention of global warming and generally the introduction of a more peaceful world.

The current batch of carpetbaggers in charge are trying to save as much as they can so that the umpteen trillion debt of the bankers are paid without a great deal of taxation on the rich.

Poor people can make their contribution by fucking off and dying somewhere so that the coalition can get on with: “carry on government”.

Agree Mary – “protecting our freedom of speech” – ??! My best friend died on HMS Sheffield protecting old-style gunboat diplomacy and certainly the last imperial war.

RIP ‘Eggy’ – we love you buddy.

http://www.thisisannouncements.co.uk/5882322

HMS Coventry was purposely commanded into the line of fire as a decoy to draw Argentinian aircraft away from other ships at San Carlos Bay according to her Captain David Dyke.

HMS Coventry had no certain defense against Argentine A-4 Skyhawks.

Nineteen serviceman lost.

http://www.hmscoventry.co.uk/25thmay1982.php

One of your former colleagues is due to address UEA, would he be worth challenging as to your past appalling treatment?

“You are warmly invited to this Friday’s (15 March) European Forum guest lecture at 5pm, Arts 01.02 (please note that this room is on the Lower Ground Floor of the Arts building).

Sir Stephen Wall GCMG, LVO, former diplomat and official historian of the UK and EU: ‘Britain and Europe’. In a distinguished career, Sir Stephen served as Private Secretary to five Foreign Secretaries and one Prime Minister, Ambassador to Portugal, UK Permanent Representative to the EU, and Head of the European Secretariat and Europe Adviser to the Prime Minister Tony Blair. He is the author of ‘A Stranger in Europe: Britain in the EU from Thatcher to Blair’ and ‘The Official History of Britain and the European Community, Vol II’. He is currently working on Volume III.

As space is limited, we’d be grateful if you could register via email at politicsevents@uea.ac.uk

Al Qaeda is also slang for the toilet in Arabic or something. If true, of course, it would bolster the claim that they don’t really exist in the manner claimed. But is it true? Or is it a piece of disinfo?

It is true, al qaeda can be a reference to bottom/arse and derivatives thereof also could denote anus/bumhole too, dependent on the region it could mean women’s menstruation, and or toilet too.

The westerners whom choose the phrase were too busy scaremongering’ “Q” is a scary/sinister letter in English as in the name “Q” in the Bond movies. The script writers got to write for real life actors too.

“Mark Golding – yes I’m aware Robin Cook claimed Al Qaeda was the Farsi word for the database, or something similar. I’ve also noted that a meme is being disseminated on the web alleging that Al Qaeda is also slang for the toilet in Arabic or something. If true, of course, it would bolster the claim that they don’t really exist in the manner claimed. But is it true? Or is it a piece of disinfo? I’ve no idea.”

Nobody knows. I did look into it some time ago and concluded that Robin Cook hadn’t got it quite right. Al Qaeda does mean “the base” and there was a database of Mujahideen on a computer in the UAE during the Soviet occupation era but I don’t think the two are connected. The name seems to have been first used by America, the most probable explanation is that an Afghani who lived near to a training camp when asked by the Americans what they were called said “the base”, as in military base, because that is what the locals called it. America looking for a label to connect the unconnected weren’t much bothered what it meant or what the Muslims called each other.

Having said that we only have to look at history to know nothing is ever as it seems. Many senior IRA officials turned out to be working for the British government, we know the security services and the police infiltrate radical groups as a matter of routine. I don’t think there can be any doubt that the security services of several countries all have senior Muslim extremists on their payroll. Abu Qatada probably is or has been working for MI6.

How about the new AofC? At least we knew the old one was basically a theologian but rather wet and ecumenical and rather too friendly with the C Rabbi.

The St George’s in Baghdad referred to is administered by Canon Andrew White, also from the same reconciliation group at Coventry Cathedral where Welby comes from. White is Pentagon funded (on his own admission) and he makes visits back to this country and also to countries like Israel where he has connections.

Welby is one to watch methinks.

It stinks. These are definitely birds of a feather. Lay money on them being joned at the hip, with all the same aims, interests and of course also all the Israeli connections.

I’m not an MI6 spy says Archbishop of Canterbury
It is a scenario straight from the novels of John Le Carre: the head of the Church of England has a secret past smuggling in cold war Europe, briefing US state department officials on rebels in the Niger Delta and chatting to the future head of MI6 in Baghdad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9912248/Im-not-an-MI6-spy-says-Archbishop-of-Canterbury.html

Hope that you are recovering Craig.I very much enjoyed your contribution to the debate at Oxford.Silly of me but I always thought it was spelled Al Ciadah not sure how I got that idea?
Boaden’s a truly horrible person,watching her scurrying away from any connection with the Saville foulness demonstrates that.I wrote to her re: bliar’s war crimes and got a load of bollock’s back about how the B.B.C.had aired many programs examing those sort of claims! News to us all.Stay well and in good heart.

The funniest thing about the BBC was the way they broadcast “The Power of Nightmares” during October/November 2004, but when the so-called War on Terror started you couldn’t find a mention of it anywhere on the BBC.

Mary truth and justice. Just because I don’t buy into your conceited self important drivel doesn’t make me a troll, I’m merely expressing my freedom of speech that you seem to celebrate and defend in wanted terror suspects. On Welsh I’m being silly? Really perhaps you should take a step back and read through these threads ie Robin Cook assassinated, good grief. Having served in the Falklands, Northern Island and Bosnia its my belief that the impact of terrorism is real in a lot of people’s minds and Qatada is a symbol of this.

Agree on Boaden. What was it now? Same vast salary and a sideways move from Head of News to Head of Radio.

Ref Sa Vile and all that, more of the muck is exposed.

‘Artist Graham Ovenden accused of sexual abuse

An internationally-acclaimed artist has been described in court as a paedophile who blindfolded girls and committed indecent acts.

Graham Ovenden, 70 – who has had work hung at the Tate Gallery – is accused of sexually abusing children in London and Cornwall.

Truro Crown Court heard Mr Ovenden’s “target of abuse was young girls.”

He denies nine charges of indecency with a child and indecent assault on victims aged between six and 14.

When he was arrested over the alleged abuse of one of the girls, Mr Ovenden admitted he had taken photographs of her – a few of them being “nudies”, the court was told.’

/..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-21745915

This too which I think was mentioned before here. His work is in other collections apart from the Tate’s. Be careful what you say though. I think Mrs Bercow is still being pursued.

http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/mcalpine-admits-he-owned-ovenden-art.html

Oh fine Boomtownrat. Carry on with the killing then. Defensive war, like WWII, I understand but not occupation and offensive war(s).

Are you possibly connected with any other establishment appearing regularly on this blog?

Cut out the insults too. Thanks.

Defensive war like WWII? We declared war on Germany due to the invasion of Poland but neither had the ability or will to actually support them. Then in 1944 whilst Polish troops were fighting at Cassino sold them out to the Russians under Stalin, who was every inch the monster that Hitler was

Am I a member of any other establishment? No. There is no conspiracy, just an every day person who disagrees with your opinion. I stumbled upon this thread as it was championed by Frankie Boyle. I was appalled by the ridiculing and conceit

Carry on the killing? I detest violence, but sadly due to the human condition sometimes it’s necessary, so that we can enjoy the freedoms that we do.

Cut out the insults……. I’m a troll and a rat?! Bit hypocritical

Robin Cook told me al-Qaeda was a creation of the CIA, a coherent terrorist organisation with OBL at its head. Hillary Clinton admitted the Mujahideen were the “database” of Al-Qaeda assets. Al-Qaeda are a controlled opposition force of the Central Intelligence Agency to promote their middle east destabilization process. To give empirical U.S. Military Industrial Complex a reason to invade wherever they want in the ever widening “war on terror” fraud.

In 1999 MI5 planned a huge covert operation to break up violent racist organisations such as the BNP…. This information published in the MSM was I believe Lies & Propaganda.

A reliable low level(engineering)insider source whom I trust said the operation intended to subvert certain illegal immigrants to work as operatives needed to implement the planned ‘war on terror’ by coercing other fellow innocent Muslims.

The plan drew on the resources of the National Criminal Intelligence Service, Department of Social Security, Inland Revenue, immigration organisation and Customs. Benefits agencies, local authorities, British Telecom, credit agencies, schools and other educational institutions.

Here, an interesting insight into how international law owns your life and body to some degree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-0f6LoNeaU

boomtownrat: I would strongly disagree that you have protected mine or anyone else’s right to free speech (aside from a few thousand Falkland Islanders who were used by Thatcher to get her re-elected. She ignored many times the increasing Argentinian threat and I doubt she gave the injured or killed a second thought). The only danger to it comes not from far away lands but from the warmongering elite who use people like you to do their killing/die for them…..Any genuine threat to this country would be resisted just as staunchly by UK citizens as the people of Iraq and Afghanistan resist the occupations your comrades have taken part in.

Andy. I have to agree with your opinion on the Falklands. However I suspect that both sections of the divide were grateful for the British army preventing tiny sections of there communities from imposing their will on the majority. The British government made some dreadful mistakes in the 70s which are fact. You speak of Thatcher but Blairs record is pretty awful, birds of a feather. It’s naive to say that the armed services haven’t protected your freedoms and democracy’s, and yes someone has to do it, but it can’t always be solved from behind a keyboard, shame really

Sorry about the rat suffix. I must have been thinking of Geldof.

Forgiven….. We are obviously of the same generation!

Syria latest atrocity:

Terrorists on Sunday targeted a kindergarten microbus near Dahiat al-Assad Roundabout in Harasta in Damascus Countryside as a child was killed and nine children were injured, some of them are in a critical situation:

http://sana.sy/eng/337/2013/03/11/471770.htm

“Robin Cook told me al-Qaeda was a creation of the CIA, a coherent terrorist organisation with OBL at its head. Hillary Clinton admitted the Mujahideen were the “database” of Al-Qaeda assets. Al-Qaeda are a controlled opposition force of the Central Intelligence Agency to promote their middle east destabilization process. To give empirical U.S. Military Industrial Complex a reason to invade wherever they want in the ever widening “war on terror” fraud.”

Well if Hillary says so it must be true.

You see the problem is that the database was set up in 1988 towards the end of the Soviet occupation yet Al Qaeda hardly seems to have existed before September 2001.

Read this Times article about Osama Bin Laden from June 2001, no mention of Al Qaeda at all.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,131866,00.html

So what terrorism is Abu Quatada suspected/accused of, Boomtownchav? Anything concrete? or is it that we just can’t comprehend and accept his freedom of speech?

As for having to kill, sometimes, bless, for the freedom we enjoy,… what of lot of brainwashed nonsense you are displaying, you signed up for something that could get you killed, your choice.

Nobody ever asked you to do it and to make out you do it for us, I suppose that’s what they tell young minds, still, when you swear to do it for king and country, defending the establishment effectively, is a load of hogwash, you have sold your soul for a certain time, and for money.

The Falklands always belonged to Argentina and one wasted referendum will not change this. That Thatcher had to sacrifice all these life’s for her electoral stance and vested oil interests, is just a fact. Very much agree with Andy on the defense of the realm, which is here, not in Bosnia Argentina or Afghanistan, when it comes to the crunch, island mentality will always oppose occupation, although we feel somewhat castrated by those who steal from society and drag us into other people’s wars.

Fighting an invented construct and covering up the self perpetuating moves, the torture done for our freedom and liberty, which is in reality, the self interest of arms pedlars who are creating their own enemies. After Iraq and Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, in progress, we are now attacking key countries such as Mali, strategically the most important west African nation, hooray, with a Junta in charge which can easily be swiped aside by our demands.

Has anybody seen an election timetable for democratic elections in Mali?, or is this not part of our agenda anymore, i.e. to stabilise and strengthen a self determined state of Mali.

The supporting argument for drone assassination is that “it has been very effective in the killing of known al-Qaeda ‘terrorists’

That invokes a question: If a foreign country wanted to kill one of it’s own, who currently lived in Britain, would the British government allow the foreign power to send one of their drones to nassassinate this target? hint: extradited to one’s death.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/03/11/293016/one-of-largest-war-criminals-to-run-cia/

Of course a British government would not, therefore that makes the drone assassiantion program in foreign lands illegal under international law.

I need guidance to prove this point.

“The Falklands always belonged to Argentina and one wasted referendum will not change this.”

I disagree. I believe everyone has the right to self determination. Who they wish to be governed by is a matter for the Falkland Islanders alone.

Laughably:

“In order to assert their inherent right to choose their own form of government, the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands will hold a referendum on March 10–11, 2013, to decide whether they wish to maintain their allegiance to Great Britain. Britain has administered the Islands peacefully and continuously since 1833, with the exception of the two months in 1982 when the Islands were invaded and illegally occupied by Argentine forces. The Obama Administration has backed Argentina’s calls for a U.N.-brokered settlement for the Islands and so far has refused to recognize the outcome of the referendum. This policy poses serious risks to U.S. interests and is an insult both to Britain—the U.S.’s closest ally—and to the rights of the Islanders.”

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/03/the-united-states-should-recognize-british-sovereignty-over-the-falkland-islands

Some history:

John Strong is the first to land, in 1690. He names the islands after the treasurer of the navy, Viscount Falkland, and then sails on.

The islands remain uninhabited until the French found a colony at Port Louis on East Falkland in 1764 (they call the islands les Îles Malouines because the expedition arrives from St Malo). In the following year a British expedition under John Byron (grandfather of Lord Byron the poet) establishes a fort at Port Egmont on the tiny Saunders island north of West Falkland. Byron claims the islands for Britain (unaware that the French are on East Falkland, though this would not have deterred him). Soon the British acquire new neighbours. The French cede their settlement on East Falkland to Spain.

Spain, adapting the French name to become las Islas Malvinas, is the first nation to take settlement on the islands seriously. Spanish forces make repeated efforts to expel the British from Saunders Island. They finally succeed in 1774.

For the next sixty years the islands are exclusively in Spanish hands, but during this period the allegiance of the local Spaniards changes. When the Argentinians assert their independence from Spain, in 1816, they also lay claim to the Spanish territory of the Malvinas.

Argentinians take possession of the islands in 1820.

That is until Queen Victoria points her finger and the British Navy absconders followed by British workers are transported free to work for the Falklands Islands Company.

@ Fred (14h20) :

“we know the security services and the police infiltrate radical groups as a matter of routine”

I should jolly well hope so. They would be failing in their duty and not fit for purpose if they didn’t.

************

La vita è bella, life is good! (safeguard the Realm)

DEATH BY BEE STING

US deaths by bee sting in 2003 – 60. US deaths by terrorism, worldwide – 23. No, Really!

$26B (B AS IN BILLION) STOLEN — IN NEO-CON PORK — PER US LIFE LOST TO TERRORISM

2003 – US deaths by terrorism, worldwide – 23. US deaths by bee sting – 60. Amount spent on so-called US War of Terror – $3T (T as in Trillion) in five years. Or $26B (B as in billion) per life lost to terrorism over five years. ($3T / (5 x 23) ) = $26B. A War of Terror on brown people, in case you gave a damn.

WAR ON AN ABSTRACT NOUN

SUCKERS!

So one assumes that something else was going on. Like the US Imperialists / Neo-Cons / and their Defense Contractor pals getting filthy rich with their imaginary ‘War on an Abstract Noun.’ (Gore Vidal)

The big fear of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan was that they were the suckers being used to enrich the Neo-Con Nazis. Boy, were they ever right!

US EMPIRE ‘CRIMINAL STRUCTURE’

$26B (B as in billion) per life lost to terrorism. “But, I mean, it leaves intact the whole criminal structure.” “Groups within the elite in a ferocious battle for power.” Who wouldn’t battle over that much corruption? Is that why they talk about a US ‘criminal structure’??? No change there, then!

But pity the poor bloody US taxpayer. Never mind the unemployed and the homeless. And the millions dead in Iraq, Afghanistan and the in the rest of the Empire’s victims.

- Peter Dale Scott – ’911, Left Gatekeepers, Zelikow’. – @4.05 –

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDZR72PPUO0#t=04m05s

NUREMBERG Mk II

Poor US Empire (Neo-Con?) Nazis / ‘Our Tony’ Bliar, Brown, Cameron, Clegg, Bush, Cheney — Terrified of their date with destiny — A long drop on a short rope. – Nuremberg Mk II. –

Mk I for comparison – Nuremberg Executions of N_zi Leaders for ‘Crimes Against Humanity’ and ‘Crimes Against the Laws of War.’ – Original –

- http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=95d_1206462963

Abu Qatada is the UKs Emmanuel Goldstein, waved about in public whenever the appetite for authoritarian government is on the wane. No coincidence that Qatada’s recent media exposure coincides with the ridiculously over-hyped threat of terrorism visa-vis mass killing of people by pharmaceutical industry engineered superbugs, which will be allowed to kill millions of people simply because there is no profit in manufacturing new antibiotics. Much like how we are all enslaved to personal and national debt because criminal and fraudulent banks are ‘too big’ to fail, despite failing on every level except for enslaving people in a ponzi scheme of mass destitution. This is what happens when people allow the government to abdicate all responsibility for the welfare of the population to profit making corporations.

Ah, I see that Mary (For Justice and Truth, Bigotry and Intolerance)is getting ready to bring the Archbishop of C. into her personal Pantheon of Evil.

Just imagine – when in the oil business, he chatted with the future head of MI6 in Bahgdad! Shock and horror! (Stalin used to have people executed for being acquaintances of “enemies of the people”).

Mind you, the former Archbishop doesn’t seem to have met with Mary’s approval either, because she thinks he was “rather too friendly with the Chief Rabbi” (we know, Mary, we know, he should have beaten him up…).

While with religion : could Mary tell us something unpleasant about the future Pope? (please don’t let the fact we don’t yet know his name stop you)

*************

La viuta è bella, life is good! (Fight Bigotry and Intolerance)

Just so there is no doubt, Abu Qatada has never been charged with any crime in the UK.

Times journalist Daniel McGrory (now deceased) stated in an article in March 2004, that Qatada was an agent working for Mi5.
.
Al-Qaeda cleric exposed as MI5 double agent – War on Terror
Times, The (London, England) – Thursday, March 25, 2004
Author: Daniel McGrory and Richard Ford
.
Questions have been asked about Qatada since 2001, however he has always evaded arrest…..
.

Fancy that!

Terrorism has in fact murdered more people than any disease. Government terrorism is prolific if you believe the definition:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies, often for ideological or political reasons.

Intimidation and/or coercing has increased since Barack Obama assumed the office of the President of the United States, he signaled his commitment to make his administration “the most transparent in history.”

In his inaugural address, he pledged his administration would “do our business in the light of day – because only then can we restore the vital trust between a people and their government.”

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/change_has_come_to_whitehouse-gov

Bollocks!!

Nice typo, Craig. ‘Osama Bun Laden’ conjures up such a homely image

In other news, ‘Osama Bin Laden’ is an anagram of ‘Obama, sin laden’

Habbabkuk said: “… While with religion : could Mary tell us something unpleasant about the future Pope? (please don’t let the fact we don’t yet know his name stop you)”

Is that enough unpleasantry to be going on with?

Belmarsh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Belmarsh 900 souls

http://batchgeo.com/map/england-prisons-suicides

SE28 0EB
# suicides 2001: 0

# suicides 2002: 1

# suicides 2003: 3

# suicides 2004: 1

# suicides 2005: 1

# suicides 2006: 0

# suicides 2007: 4

# suicides 2008: 1

# suicides 2009: 0

# suicides 2010: 3

# suicides 2011: 2

Suicides total (2001-2011): 16

The other night I found a link about a backlog of inquests that have not been held for some of the suicides that have been committed at Belmarsh but cannot now find the link.

We have much more to fear from the Superbugs, and the MEdia does it’s best to keep the phear alive.

“FEAR is the mind killer” Frank Herbert

Habbabkuk: The infiltration of alleged terrorist groups ultimately result in 3 or 4 young Muslim men being incarcerated for very long periods convicted through male bravado but barely a shred of real evidence.
Recent accounts of at least one undercover officer reveals that he slept with several of the female members in an environmental group. Now I’m no prude but it doesn’t seem quite right to me that this behaviour is morally justified in pursuit of extreme environmentalists(?).
Similarly, the undercover officer in a suspected terrorism investigation knows that every conversation is recorded. He knows what result his commanding officer wants from him. In my view, this a deeply flawed method of investigation because all the resources are being ploughed into procuring a particular outcome. The suspects aren’t simply chatting amongst themselves they are being led towards certain statements. Any charismatic man or woman could induce some shocking statements from people who aren’t aware they are being manipulated.
So far as Qatada goes, anyone who supports the treatment he has received by UK authorities probably supports the principles of Guantanamo too.
Back to Craig’s initial point about the threat of terrorism …..It can’t even compare to the hazard of DIY, never mind the loss of effective antibiotics.

Nevermind. Have you any idea about the subject of the Falklands or do simply make it up on the hoof? I ask no sympathy for my actions in the forces, and it takes a blinkered keyboard warrior to offer them. I did what I had to do and left when I no longer believed.
The Falklands have always been Argentinas? Strange that Argentina didn’t exist when it was first colonised. Mr Golding is pretty spot on until his last paragraph. The Falklands became British due to an act of piracy by the United States corvette Lexington in 1831. In a dispute over the completely legal arrest of American sealing ships they murder Louis Vernet the Islands governor, anarchy reigns until order is restored in 1833 by the British sloop Clio. Thatcher may well have snatched war from the jaws of a peaceful settlement, but the military government in Argentina were no shrinking violets, murdering people in football grounds is just not cricket
If your going to be a patronising nob please be accurate

@ Andy :

Actually I would agree with most of what you write (or at least have considerable sympathy for it). Thank you for posting that.

@ Andy : I should have added that I consider entrapment a particularly filthy technique which should have no place in the security arrangements a state puts in place.

Almost all the terrorism related convictions in the US have been engineered by the FBI, even supplying fake bombs to mentally ill people in order to obtain a highly publicised conviction.

None of the alleged ’7/7 suicide bombers’ never had a single conviction and all had respectable lifestyles. The most ‘Islamic’ activity that they could pin on one was that he had gone to Mecca. However, they were all ‘known’ to MI5. Anyone that has seen the ‘confession video’ by Mohammad Sidique Khan (who liked to be called ‘Sid’) can clearly tell that he is reading a script and even looks embarrassed at what he has to say. He was 30 and a teaching assistant, the others were 18,19 and 22, quite possibly former students who needed a few quid, one was still living at home with his mum and dad.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/london_blasts/investigation/html/bombers.stm

It is quite possible that Khan was recruited by MI5 to take part in the ‘excercises’ that were being conducted by Visor Consultants that day and he in turn recommended former pupils to take the role of a ‘cell’. The video was made as part of the ‘excercise’. There are so many anomalies in the ‘official narrative’ that only make sense when one considers they were perfectly law abiding people who thought they were helping combat terrorism and duped into these ‘excercises’, the scenarios of which happened to have been exactly what transpired into reality.
http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/july-7-terror-rehearsal.html

@ Glenn :

if you’re being serious, then that’s a rather disappointing reply (eg “an old Catholic dude” – are you expecting a young, Lutheran woman?). I do note, however, that only the 1st para is about the Pope as person, while the other two are about the Catholic church.

I’ve no doubt that Mary prefers to wait until we know who the new Pope is; by doing this she will be better placed to damn him by reference to someone he may once have had a conversation with, or some organisation he may once have belonged to in his youth, or that fact that he has never declared himself in favour of women priests or liberation theology…or whatever. So while thanking you for your “assistance”, I’ll await the election and Mary’s inevitable subsequent comments with great interest. Shall we make a bet that she’ll post something negative within, let’s say, 7 days of his appointment?

********

La vita è bella, life is good! (Holy Father, pray for Glenn-UK)

Manning, et al…..Yes I was duped into the meme of Pollard’s terrible crimes against the US. I should have know their tactics don’t change.

“Now, documents that the CIA has been fighting to withhold for years, released to relatively little public notice in recent months, show that Pollard’s advocates may have been right. The documents were obtained and released by the nonprofit, private, National Security Archive. A federal panel agreed with the Archive that the CIA had no basis for continuing to withhold its 1987 Damage Assessment.

The whole idea behind Pollard’s conviction and life sentence was that he was harming the United States by spying on it for Israel. But one recently-released CIA document, a “damage assessment” of the case from 1987, suggests that the crux of what he was collecting for Israel was not about the United States at all.

The CIA document shows that Pollard’s Israeli handlers were particularly keen on getting information that they believed vital to Israel’s defense, including material on Egyptian missile programs, Syrian unmanned planes, and Soviet air defenses. They were especially interested in what Soviet advisers were talking to their Syrian clients about.

The new revelations are important because they cast a more nuanced light on a hot-button issue—and give credence to the notion that even allies constantly seek to obtain information from each other that they believe essential to their own security—regardless of how they obtain it.

The United States, naturally, never offers to discuss its constant spying on its allies, including for example, eavesdropping on them. During the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, the US spied on its allies with the help of Britain. In another instance, according to a former US military communications intercept officer, it spied on Britain itself—or rather on its then-leader, Tony Blair.”

Read the ‘documents’ link….

http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/03/07/the-jonathan-pollard-spy-case-plot-thickens/

Heh. Glenn, I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t want the yoke of the Pope’s prayer choking off my afterlife. It could only hurt the venal/mortal sinner.

I’d rather be a member of the Church of England. Henry VIII has fewer moral deficits.

It’s not totally unreasonable though to have limited expectations of the next pope, to be fair.

They haven’t exactly had a good press, since at least the Reformation.

And therefore I expect most people are rather sceptical about their affairs.

They haven’t had a good pope since John XXIII, and everything since his death in 1963, has been an overturning of his human values, as represented in the second Vatican Council.

They’re going to make him a saint. Why? Because he’s good PR for the organisation. They can publicly bask in the beauty of his values, whilst in private undermining them at every turn.

Is there a more corrupt institution? Since Constantine, the Catholic Church has been a nest of vice and corruption. Yet some still adhere to the antiquated notion of ‘Christianity’.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/03/11/293085/priests-abused-thousands-of-dutch-girls/

“I stumbled upon this thread as it was championed by Frankie Boyle. I was appalled by the ridiculing and conceit”

No comment.

Re Qatada,
In a February 2007 High Court ruling, reference (Paragraph 70) is made to a Belgian Court hearing that Abu Qatada “appears as a watermark running through the whole of this ['Appellant E'] case as being the mastermind, if not the commandant, of the movements propounding jihad in the West”
.
In a Scotsman article of July 2002 Qatada has been described by a Spanish judge as being the “spiritual head of the mujahideen in Britain”. The Scotsman article also states that Qatada was ‘living under the protection of MI5‘.
.
In these days of the ‘carte blanche’ powers attributed to the police under Sections 57 & 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000 (‘possession of information useful to a terrorist’) why would the authorities NOT arrest Qatada if he was such a ‘bad tewworist’?
.
There is a much deeper back-story to the whole ‘War on Terror’ which anomalous cases like Qatada’s fit in (all ‘closed evidence’ of course – in the interests of ‘national security’, of course).
.
Maybe one day the backstory will emerge, perhaps after 80 years or so, as in the 1916 case of Alice Wheeldon who was arrested as a ‘terrorist’ planning to assinate the Prime Minister at the time (David Lloyd George). The whole plot was cooked up by the security services of the day to thwart anti-war/politcal discourse amongst the populace.

Understandable, but coming from a veteran soldier appalled by the ridiculing of warmongering and the conceit of conscientious objection.

400 hundred british invaders died in Afghanistan killing local defenders and their loyal familys, not terrorists.

Harry Patch never shot to kill.

If you think I’m a patronising knob, boomtownchav, then I must have said something that got your goat. Do you not think that the expenditure in the Falklands is wasted.
The Falklands are not Chinese, just as the isle of jersey isn’t. Whatever prat decided to settle migrants/pirates there without taking the geographical facts into account should be thanked for this spat that has cost so many life’s.

I apologise if you feel hurt, its the platitudes that done it and you’re not the only one who has left the forces in thoughts, I respect that as a thoroughly human reaction to the brainwash some of us here also experienced. take care.

It has made us sharper.

Africom Pope – you raised some possibilities; a hypothesis that is missing crucial information, namely an inquest into the four so called ‘terrorist’ bombers. The official government report is lacking detail, indefinite and somewhat speculative. Much will be revealed this July 2013 anniversary.

J7′s ongoing research efforts have twice forced the government to amend the official Home Office narrative which, on one occasion, required the then Home Secretary, Dr John Reid, to stand before parliament and announce a major factual inaccuracy to the house.

Some subjective thinking may also confuse such as this statement by survivor witness Beverli Rhodes (in a room near the bus explosion):

“My conscience, however, was pricking me and, of course, my partner was also doing exactly the same thing. At my partner’s insistence, I called the police line anonymously, and requested that there might be a connection between the bomb outside our offices and our involvement in the Olympic bid, as the upper level of the bus was at exactly the same level as our boardroom where the bomb went off. I did not leave my name and I did not comment any further. As far as that goes, I feel that perhaps I could have assisted a little bit further in mentioning more of my involvement but, because we were told not to speak, I was fearing for my job.

- Piccadilly Line survivor / 30 Bus witness Beverli Rhodes
Source: 7 July Review Committee hearing, 23 March 2006 [PDF]

Investigative journalist Tom Secker researched anomalies in the official government inquiry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=ql59RPRL4v0#!

Dedicated to Miriam Hyman

Ben

It’s obvious that the Holy Mother Church is failing.

Useful though they were for a time, for a very long time, even long after the protestant rebellion, they’re now on the way out, replaced by the good lord Murdoch, a good man and a tolerant man, for whom much tolerance is expected.

We have a pope.

Harry Patch – the man who said war was “a license to go out and murder…”

- Note: Despite appeals the BBC have remained silent on requests by children to put the BBC documentary ‘Harry Patch – The Last Tommy’ on BBC iPlayer for posterity.

This when the BBC jump hoops to grab any report that condemns Iran or Palestine or Syria AND BUNG IT ON iPlayer.

Who owns the BBC??!

Thanks ‘Crab’ for the spark.

Habbabkuk said, “if you’re being serious, then that’s a rather disappointing reply (eg “an old Catholic dude” – are you expecting a young, Lutheran woman?).”

Unless we’re still jesting with each other, Habbabkuk, that’s a bit of a disappointing reply too! Of course we should expect nothing else but an old Catholic, but I did, perhaps, labour the point. The attitudes and position of any Pope were exactly as described, would you not agree? Anything personal about a particular Pope is pretty by-the-by. One might as well have a gay, atheist Pope as a Hitler youth former anti-aircraft gunner as Pope. Knowing your history as well as I’m sure you do, you’re aware we’ve had both.

But my point was just a throw-away line, such as when Private Eye ponders about the location in which bears would find suitable toilet facilities.

Speaking of P.E., do you not recognise Mary’s style when it comes to a generalised cynicism of the establishment? It’s entirely appropriate to acknowledge and remind readers of the failings, and corrupting interests, of publicly acclaimed individuals – champions of virtue, notable for their dignity and character – who are supposedly above the human frailties of the rabble. We can expand on this if you are interested.

But Habbabkuk – you are an interesting character, and it’s good that you’re here. Your presence keeps us on our toes, and a lot of your points deserve consideration. I would respect you a lot more if you didn’t appear to have a primary interest in bullying one particular female, not to say rather genteel, senior citizen. One might wonder if some “handy” fellow, in his thirties maybe, who went to a rough comprehensive, would not so readily be picked upon.

Please stay around, your posts are useful and I (for one) like reading them.

@ Glenn_uk :

Please consider your gracious post as the rising sun which dissipates the early morning mist at the beginning of a summer’s day

Yes, of course I recognise Mary’s style and of course you’re right when you say in essence that publicly acclaimed individuals should be held to a high, perhaps higher, level of account. But perhaps in a more rational and objective way? I think that my objections are to a large extent a matter of style and ‘organisation’ and that I should be more favorably disposed to her as a commenter if she were to avoid irrelevancies which usually take the form of personal side-swipes and if she were to confine herself more strictly to the subject of any individual thread rather than feeling free to come out with any thoughts that’ve come into her head at any particular moment. But I can assure you that her status as an elderly female has nothing to do with it, and indeed why should it (if anything, I happen to believe that children and older people deserve particular respect and consideration by virtue of their greater general vulnerability in the case of the former and their experience in the case of the latter); my examination of some ‘handy’ fellow of the age and background you imagine would certainly be no less vigorous if such a person were to post in a similar manner and in the same style as Mary. You’ll probably have noticed that some other commenters have also received the share edge of my quill. But Mary is rather unique and does post a lot (with the displeasing characteristics I’ve mentioned) and so attracts a commensurate amount of my limited attention.

Anyway, that was interesting. But let’s not be distracted from substance…..

PS – re. “bullying” : do you really seee bullying in my responses to some of Mary’s posts (dissociating the notion of bullying from the question of frequency)?

“share edge” should have read “sharp edge”

Yes Fred, a washed up ex junkie who appears to jump on every bandwagon,

No comment required.

Your absolutely right

Nevermind. To say that you asked no one to protect your freedoms, in my opinion, is like a rich kid sitting in a beautiful convertible saying “I never asked for it”. Still enjoying the benefits but…

In respect of Quatada, I’m sure he has committed no crime in this country. I also have little doubt that he has worked for the British security services, but it would appear that his usefulness has come to an end. If this is the case it’s not the first time.

Heatherington / McGrogan 1970′s NI, forced agents, deserted, allegedly by 14 Int, murdered by the IRA

Arthur Thompson, Glasgow gangster, allegedly, used for years by intelligence services to control crime whilst being given a free hand

Saddam, regarded as the bulwark against revolutionary Islam, supported by Richard Fairbanks who ran ‘operation Staunch’ The same Fairbanks that was George Bushes foreign affairs advisor during his election campaign against Reagan, who sold attack helicopters despite an arms embargo and supplied the Intelligence that reversed the Faw successes of Iran…..allegedly

Going to war over WMD when we had done nothing, apart from a mild rebuke, over Halabjah, stating that only yperite had been used (first World War vintage) well I guess that made it okay then

Your absolutely right about the policy’s from yesteryear that made the Falklands British, but they were made, now it has to be managed using today’s policy’s

I don’t agree with much that’s written on this thread, some of it appears to be hot air, and yes it gets my goat a little. I apologise. On reflection it’s the freedom of speech that I so believe in, and I would still fight to preserve it (although I’m sure that you wouldn’t want that) The above point are because I accept that a lot of bad things are done to preserve those freedoms but sometimes to preserve an individuals position.

Enjoy your thread, enjoy your opinions.

“I called the police line anonymously, and requested that there might be a connection between the bomb outside our offices and our involvement in the Olympic bid”

Had the bombs gone off one day earlier then it is very likely that London’s bid would have failed. The most likely reason that it was diverted by plain clothed police is because it was part of the “exercise”. It is also interesting that after the diversion the “bomber” is said to have began panicking and rifling through his rucksack, pulling at wires.

Look at the advert on the side of the bus – weird coincidence?
http://london.southeastasianews.org/number30_1100409.html

Which ever way you cut this pie it’s always full of shit. The only thing that is totally obvious is that the ‘official narrative’ is not worth wiping your arse on.

Boomtownchav

11 Mar, 2013 – 11:20 am

The country that brought ‘the quaint idea of …’ -I take it you’re referring to Afghanistan, which country and people certainly had no part in it; it was The United States, Israel and Saudi Arabia, with other countries, including Britain as complicit by perpetuating the cover up that is still persisted with despite the frankly preposterous nature of the official version of events on that day. The military were lined up in place preparing to invade Afghanistan for months before September 2001. Apportioning blame within hours, silencing suspicions, blocking investigation, destroying evidence followed. Remember that line about a carpet of gold or a carpeting with bombs or words to that effect.

It doesn’t add up, it never will. You’ve been duped and it’s wearing off, it’s hard to take in, but you’ll get there in the end. And so many ‘everyday’ people too, what other kind are there, might I ask, are there superior or indeed inferior people, some more expendable than others it seems, so many non-everyday people conspicuously weren’t there at all, the toll was heavy of security and cleaning staff, menial everyday people I suppose, but inexplicable absenteeism amongst bigwigs was astonishingly high, with many Republican supporting executives, commanded to stay away and attend a ‘charity breakfast’ at Offut Air Force base, or the staff of Odigo IM spyware or of Fuji bank and so many more. Such high-flyers or assets we’re told it’s their custom to be first in and last out in the evening, setting a pathetic example, but in the city that never sleeps, the queen bees all gave work a miss.

The entirely innocent people of Afghanistan or Iraq, Libya and now Syria, were everyday people too. When the dead begin to clock up in their millions, the odd collapses of those rickety buildings, pales into complete insignificance. The view of uncomprehending and very expendable economic conscripts, you in other words, with a pleasure in smashing, killing and destroying on par with the terrorists, but with the means, training and official sanction, unlike these media-hyped amateurs we do tire hearing of, hardly matters much either.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/as-big-as-terrorism/#comment-398785

Desist from your discussion about me with others. Stop your ageist and sexist remarks. How dare you. Who I am is none of your business. You are spiteful and unpleasant and are becoming even more garrulous.

Your false concern for the integrity of Craig’s blog is just a ruse to gather support here. You do not give a stuff about Craig’s blog.

You will not wear me down or drive me out. The opposite is true. Your jibes empower me and give me extra spirit.

Glenn_UK is in a minority of one or two when he says he appreciates your comments. You never contribute anything or inform us. Backbiting and criticizing is your speciality.

Try getting out more and find some friends. I have just spent a pleasant couple of hours swimming with friends and taking part in an aqua aerobics class. Recommend it.

@ Mary :

“Try getting out more and find some friends. I have just spent a pleasant couple of hours swimming with friends and taking part in an aqua aerobics class. Recommend it.”

Well, I’ve just been building a snowman and very fine he looks too. But he must think he’s you because when I pointed to certain defects in his construction he was very rude and called me a troll!

Seriously, though : I see no reason why I shouldn’t discuss you, when appropriate with others on this blog. Everything is in the open on this open blog and you (and others) can of course intervene if you (or they) feel you have been traduced.

I feel that you view my strictures and occasional interventions in an unduly pesssimistic light. For example, I notice that you have been much less insistent over the last couple of day in linking everything to Israel or Zionist plots; indeed I think you might have desisted entirely. And I see this as a positive sign that you can listen, which of course I welcome.

As far as Glenn-uk is concerned, I should obviously be less than somewhat flattered by his kind words. You may have noticed that his post was balanced (he does also criticise me), polite, positove in spirit and to the point. It is clear that I attach more value to a post like that than to ones which present the opposite characteristics.

**********

La vita è bella, life is good (don’t take it tragically all the time)

Cryptonym

Because my views differ so much from most of the people on this thread I will never be convinced, but I genuinely respect your opinion.

I do not believe Robin Cook was assassinated.

I not believe September 11 was anything other than a terrorist attack

I do not believe that July 7 was anything other than a terrorist attack

I do believe that the people of Afghanistan, are innocent victims of a vacuum left by the “April Revolution” the Russian invasion and the Pakistani ISI. unfortunately their country was used, re “the country that bought the quaint, etc A flippant observation, apologies

I do believe that innocent civilians bear the brunt in every war, from Ireland to Iraq. I believe that this suffering this injustice, is the seed for the next conflict.

I do believe that we deserted 8,373 men and boys in Sebrenica, to their fate. These were not fundamentalists, not terrorists, they where fathers, sons, husbands. I will never understand why they didn’t allow us to do our jobs, that was a crime that was unforgivable. It was reported at the time, I don’t recall by who, but it was said that with the diplomacy used it was difficult to see the difference between firefighters and an arsonist.

“Of course, the private soldiers field of vision is much more limited than that of his general. On the other hand, it is of vital importance to the latter to gloss over his mistakes, and draw attention only to those things which will add to his reputation. The private soldier has no such feelings. It is only to the officers of high rank engaged that a battle can bring glory and renown. To the army of common soldiers, who do the actual fighting, and risk mutilation and death,there is no reward except the consciousness of duty bravely preformed” Private Warren Olney 1862

The second Gulf War and Sebrenica didn’t allow us that. I wonder how many fundamentalist they spawned

@ Boomtownchav.
I have not made my mind up as to why General Myers failed to order jets from Edwards base to intercept the 2001 charges, instead went back into his meeting with a lower ranking official discussing manoeuvres, but it stinks.

So does the reluctance to interfere with Saudi pilots/learners, eager to learn how to fly but not land.
After knowing the ins and outs of the Bojinka plot, such laxity, more than once, with FBI and CIA operatives in various states being called off from above after blowing the whistle, stinks as well.

The ISI colluded with the CIA in their mad idea to create madrasas that teach a political islam, as the colluded with the Russians years earlier. Like with Saddam, our man in Iraq for most of his life, Bin Laden was our bagman in Tora Bora, our go between. And then he turned, another lesson for us regards training the wrong people.

I also reserve my judgement on 7/7.

I fully agree with you on Srebrenizca and the massacre that could have been avoided. I have a friend who was involved in recovering the bodies afterwards and he cracked up over it, is still, not right in the head.

Srebrenizca and the bombing of Kosovo from great hight was the nail in the coffin of NATO,imho. Since that incident, and the more later ‘no fly zone’ bombing of Libyan civilians, I am in favour of creating an EU peace and defence force.

What’s you take on NATO these days?

@Nevermind

NATO is to ham strung to be effective, to many vetoes and far to many political masters. Of course there has to be control of any armed force and it has to be a last resort but equally it has to be able to react quickly and efficiently. The French were constantly suspected of passing information in Bosnia to the Serbs. I don’t know if that is true but once the trust is broken the Alliance is finished
Sebrenica, in my opinion finished NATO. Maybe that’s a grand statement but they failed not only the people they were meant to protect but the troops who were meant to protect them

September 11 was a massive security cock up but the idea of flying hijacked planes into buildings was never really considered by Western security. Our values are so different, however, the warnings were undoubtedly there, USS Cole, the Beirut Marines barracks etc

I don’t believe in a conspiracy because I simply don’t believe our agency’s are smart enough to pull it off without being found out
,

There are a lot of unusual occurrences which beg disbelief after the fact that all pre-emptive and aggressive war waging is unjust and destructive business. But that fact is not dependent on finding the truth in each of them.

All conflicts even those which threaten some harm should be fought as long and hard as necessary – through diplomacy alone. Great harm is mundanely regulated and economised in most spheres of activity; in traffic, hospital funding, food supply, irritant chemicals… Only risk of harm from paramilitants coined terrorists, is blown up and trillion dollar campaigns of death and destruction maintained which we are supposed to thank for reducing the threat of suicidal revenge.

It might not necessarily be wrong to fight for a country, but fighting along side the american dream, in this day and age is.

A sharp and witty account from Craig recently:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/the-american-dream/

@ boomtownchav

Sept. 2001 was being prepared for years and the signs were all there, just not taken seriously, whether this was by design or accidental, as you say, for not being smart enough.

Can I recommend a very interesting book called ‘the war on freedom’, why America was attacked.
ISBN 0-930852-40-0

It is written by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed and it rips the silence surrounding this attack apart.

If they liaise with the right people, somewhat smarter and more focussed on fighting Muslims, they can pull these false flag events off. Gulf of Tonkin?

As ex Luftwaffe I have the same feelings about NATO and its multi facetted command structure, never sure which devils tune one dances to. Take care.

boomtownchav wrote, “I don’t believe in a conspiracy because I simply don’t believe our agency’s are smart enough to pull it off without being found out”

This form of argument from disbelief, usually – no disrespect – comes from people who know very little about the entire situation. It’s surprising to hear that disbelief in our own secret agencies doing this, but a rag-tag, undisciplined and untrained group of non-practicing Muslims, planned out of a cave in a stone-age country, DID manage to pull it off.

This is a good site, and a useful starting point if you want to know more about it:

http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/911-facts

The idea that nobody even considered using planes as weapons is also untrue. Dubbya himself slept on a warship rather than in buildings while away on a conference earlier that year for this very reason.

THE BIGGEST THREAT IS SECRET POLICE TERRORISM “TO FIGHT THE WAR ON TERROR”
.
Horrible though they are, neither the murderous bombing campaigns by extremist terrorist groups, nor the misuse of antibiotics, seriously threaten the very constitutional fabric of our society – the rule of law. But what is threatening the rule of law is the growing use of secret police powers by our security / intelligence agencies under the guise of “fighting the war on terror”.
.
In his book “Down and Out in Canada’s Intelligence Service” former CSIS agent, W. J. Baltruweit, referring to the use of secret police powers by CSIS wrote that CSIS had … “deliberately coerced by intimidation (hence “terrorize”), and gained submission by inducing fear (hence “terrorism”).” Many others have said similar things, and, as a victim of CSIS myself, I can confirm this.
.
But none of this was unique to CSIS. In a report on Cointelpro, the Church Committee of the US Senate, describing their intelligence agencies as ‘rogue elephants’ went on to comment on their illegal use of “Disrupt and Discredit” (D & D) … tactics against … “citizens engaging in lawful activity” reminiscent of “totalitarian regimes”. And the committee further commented that “a secret police may become a menace to free government and free institutions”.
.
And in the UK – the use of our secret police, MI5 / MI6, to persecute innocent citizens is par for the course. In a 2004 article in the Sunday Times, journalist Liam Clark calls such tactics ““Zersetzen”, roughly translated as “to undermine, subvert and corrode””. He said “Zersetzen” “is a phenomenon I have witnessed many times before”. Indeed, there are dozens of similar well-documented cases, such as my own.
.
Sadly, our elected politicians and the press are leery of the growing power of these secret agencies and thus allow themselves to be too easily influenced by them. Why should we be surprised? Give an intelligence agency secret police powers, and they will start acting like a secret police. This is the biggest threat to democracy today.

Yes. “Disrupt and Discredit”. That’s largely what these infiltrators, of whom habbakuk thoroughly approves, get up to within an organisation.

Usually what they do is incite violent activity, primarily to get the public against the organisation’s ideas, whether they be environmental, animal rights or whatever. If they can’t find a hothead within the organisation they’ll undertake the task themselves and try to create the conditions of a conspiracy with others, which is subsequently prosecuted, with much media attention. Job done! And that’s their only function really.

You can see too that the FBI have been using this tactic to prosecute 100s of people since 911, supposed terrorist offences which wouldn’t exist were the FBI not providing encouragement, and logistical and other support. These supposed terrorists will often be very dim, impressionable and mentally deranged and so on, barely capable of committing the offences attributed to them without immense support from the FBI. And of course MI5 and other western spooks are at the same game to a lesser extent.

Certainly too you can see with our trolls here that much of their intention is to disrupt and discredit.

As what the truth is about 9/11 I think we can be certain it isn’t the official story, there are far too many things just don’t add up. If they are covering up complicity or incompetence it’s hard to say except that the official version did make the media surprisingly early and has remained surprisingly unchanged.

It’s quite possible Robin Cook died of natural causes, these things do happen. However a lot of other people have died untimely deaths since 9/11, this is just the latest.

http://www.santabarbaraview.com/was-santa-barbara-resident-phillip-marshall-killed-by-cia-black-ops-unit65636/

Each one is easily written off as coincidence but not all of them. It’s as easy to write things off to conspiracy as to coincidence, I’m fairly confident there is a mix of both in the 9/11 story.

That’s a good point, Fred. Often, and we see it here in disputes on the blog, people get very bogged down in the details, when the big picture and stats provide a much clearer understanding of what’s going on.

I think this is why trolls often like to argue minor details with no reference to context at all.

The thing in this case that is clearly odd only in retrospect is that nothing new seems to have been found out or learned, the whole official story served up with stunning prescience at the time has not changed one whit over the succeeding months and years. How amazing is it that they’d figured it all out in a couple of hours and stick to it still with no revision of the ‘plot’ in the light of what subsequent investigation, enquiry and evidence might have revealed. How could such initial knee-jerk wildly speculative blundering in the dark, such breathless baloney trotted out by a uncritical media, fed from equally clueless official sources, making it up ‘on the hoof’ as they went along, have turned out it seems to have been so perfectly clairvoyant. Such coincidences don’t happen in the untidy real world.

Antibiotic resistance is an important and complex subject and has been for 20+ years. Unfortunately, as Craig rightly suggests, every excuse is used for sensationalism – HORSEMEAT in burgers, some random quine leaving a poly bag UNATTENDED in a corner of a street, the Swine Cold PANDEMIC, a PAEDOPHILE somewhere in the world, a man with a BEARD, muttering in a corner…

Partly, this is to do with the increasingly and overwhelmingly melodramatic, tabloid nature of normative media discourse. Partly, of course, it is utilised and directed by elites at instilling a constant sense of fear, as an agent of political and social paralysis, a distraction from the systemic economic crime on which they base their power and at justifying the next foreign “intervention” (for which euphemism, read, ‘war of aggression and enrichment’).

Abu Qatada, as far as I am aware – and one must be wary of all information on this – was more potentially radicalising than the more florid ex-bouncers and other such pantomimic caricatures we have come to know and love-to-hate. He allegedly was/ is deeply learned in his religion and purportedly was a much more subtle and disingenuous recruiting sergeant for Islamic extremism than the yobbo mullahs. A high quality bastard, one might say.

I accept that it is difficult to know quite how to deal with such people. Mind you, there have been quite a few such recruiting sergeants on both sides in relation to the Northern Ireland conflict, for example.

Another relevant point is, in the media many other people conveniently get lumped-in with these guys, people who may well have had only peripheral, or no, links with anything remotedly concerning. These figures – Qatada, Captain Hook and so on – become useful levers with which to exert societal control. I question their provenance. It seems to me that among the Muslims of the UK today, there are agents provocateurs, agents of influence, embedded police spies a la Mark Kennedy et al galore so that (referencing the DDR – not that I am saying the UK is like the DDR) it has become difficult to walk into a metaphorical cafe in the Muslim communities and know that the person one is greeting is not, or is not being instrumentalised by, one or other of these. One suspects the spies may be tripping over one another, reporting on one another and so on. Apart from bankers’ bonuses, it may be the only growth industry in Britain today.

“Where do you see yourself in five years, my boy?”
“Spying on you, sir.”

Along with indefinite imprisonment without trial, kidnapping, deportation to the USA when our master (who art in Heaven) calls, we crossed this particular Rubicon some time ago.

@ Herbie re infiltration :

I made it clear in another post of mine that infiltration for the purposes of entrapment is a filthy practice; I would say exactly the same about infiltration for the purposes of incitement (which I suppose is a sort of entrapment).

Hope that clarifies.

Following on from Fred’s post, I think it’s worth anyone interested in the transition to neoconism, getting hold of Phillip Marshall’s book, “The Big Bamboozle”.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Bamboozle-11-War-Terror/dp/1468094580

It’s on public license now, and is freely and lawfully available on all good torrent sites too!

http://www.santabarbaraview.com/was-santa-barbara-resident-phillip-marshall-killed-by-cia-black-ops-unit65636/

Habbakuk

Yes. I do remember that you’d modified your support for infiltration.

I ask you though. What good reason would the police and other state agencies have for infiltrating groups of citizens exercising their democratic rights, other than for the mischievous intent described above?

“I don’t believe in a conspiracy because I simply don’t believe our agency’s are smart enough to pull it off without being found out”

The bigger the lie the more it is believed. How can anyone rationally explain this?

WTC7 total collapse at 5:20pm local time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A

A Psychic BBC news reporter at 4:54 PM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s

It is simply impossible for the above news report to be an ‘accident’ as claimed by the BBC. Never in the history of steel framed buildings has a single one collapsed due to fire, let alone in a totally symmetrical collapse – which is the signature of a controlled demolition. Controlled demolitions take much planing and days, if not weeks, to set-up. The BBC *knew* that the WTC7 building was going to collapse (i.e. be demolished) and made an error by reporting the fact before it even happened? If you do not believe that then it is only because the lie is so huge your brain is rejecting it.

And who said they haven’t been found out? Are you expecting to read a headline in your morning newspaper, or a news report on the BBC, Or G.W. Bush to mention his foreknowledge in his memoirs? G.W. Bush has publicly admitted that he watched the first plane hit the building and said he thought it was pilot error – this was a huge slip up which has been consistently ignored by the media. He watched the first plane hit before the second one had arrived – think about it.

If you do not understand the significance of WTC7, and what agencies were housed in the building, http://www.ae911truth.org/ is a good starting point.

Hi Suhayl, good to have you round for tea again. what are the chances that this high quality bastard, as you say, was playing two violins at the same time, or would that be an oud?

Is his desperate struggle with the justice system a sham, one wonders, a construct kept alive for baiting others? Its either that, or our lawyers are absolutely incompetent in circumnavigating the laws they created in Europe.

My best wishes to you and your nearest, your florid, electrifying, but dead on target posts are thoroughly missed, no doubt, not just down to working your guts off.

Your heart and mind is part of this blog, you had us in histrionics galore and, pardon me mentioning it, your tea is not just sublime, but an Al-ikseer.

Stoke the fire and put that kettle on….;)

Africom @ 11:37

The WTC demolition has been looked at from every perspective. How many people can keep a secret? It’s a rhetorical question, but you can answer, at will.

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to 9/11 mythbusting. Joe Cannon is an honest broker.

@Nevermind. Thank you for the recommendation. I will read it with an open mind
Best wishes

Nevermind @ 11:39

We need more like Suhayl. Dead-on balls accurate, with prosaic ease.

“The WTC demolition has been looked at from every perspective. How many people can keep a secret? It’s a rhetorical question, but you can answer, at will.”

12,000 people worked at Bletchley Park in WWII, they kept the secret, they still don’t talk about it. 100,000 worked on the Manhattan Project in one way or another.

The answer is as many as you want if they believe their two children their dog and themselves are going to be found in a pool of blood otherwise.

Your site doesn’t address the real issues. No steel framed building in the world ever collapsed in that way before or since. What are the odds of one collapsing on 9/11? Then two? Then three? What are the odds against three hijacked planes being able to fly around North America for hours without being intercepted? What are the chances of someone who had never flown anything larger than a Cessna performing a maneuver a skilled pilot would find almost impossible?

They keep finding ways that all the events might just be possible but when you add them all up they just don’t add up.

Like I’ve said, we don’t know what happened but there is no doubt the official story is bullshit. Parts of it might be true, no way all of it is true.

Fred; Maybe you can cut your teeth on this

http://www.prisonplanet.com/?s=wtc+freefall

“.. To say that you asked no one to protect your freedoms, in my opinion, is like a rich kid sitting in a beautiful convertible saying “I never asked for it”. Still enjoying the benefits but…..”

One might say the same about the Red Army which really did protect your freedoms and defeat your enemy. You might be unable to see the difference between them and the Nazis but your predecessors in the British Army, who actually fought soldiers in armies, most certainly could.

You are quite right about the vile nature of the Argentine juntas who engaged in the Malvinas adventure, but ii is disingenuous to pretend that their disgusting policies, which they justified as being ‘anti-terrorist’, did not enjoy the full support of the Thatcher government, as did those of the brute Pinochet, another fierce enemy of “terrorism”. Or as we might say opposition to bad government.

@Habbabkuk:

Concerning the reply of 12/3/13, 08:49.

Thank you for the reply, which happened to be among my first readings of the day, as a welcome headline in the morning newspaper greets a weary campaigner

Understood – you don’t like the style of some posters. I certainly don’t like the style of some posters either, but why spend so much energy on one of them? There are positions pushed, and styles worth noting in various posters. It’s never occurred to me to fascinate on any of them, unless their viewpoint was particularly and consistently obnoxious. Whereupon, I have to admit, I’ve dropped all pretence at objectivity, and behaved liked (say) some “handy” bloke in his 30′s, who came from a particularly rough comprehensive.

I’m afraid to say that the subject that appears your chosen target, and the way you go about it, does rather look like bullying at first sight. One does not have to be flagrantly abused in order to have been bullied – particularly if it is done over a sustained period. It lets your character down, it actually would serve you well to drop it.

May I offer some free advice, which is probably worth the price paid for it. You may well become a worthwhile influence on this blog, and have a lot of fun with some intellectual jousting the whole time, so could you consider laying off the person in question here? At least for a bit. Your contributions stand on their own now, undermining one of the “chief posters” is rather unnecessary.

As it happens, when you delve off into personal thoughts, such as your belief that children/older people deserving respect for different reasons (abbreviating greatly!) – that’s when you get the most interesting. It would be great to hear more of that – even if there’s a minority of one or two other people posting here that share this view with me!

*

“No steel framed building in the world ever collapsed in that way before or since.” Not true, simply not true but just because it never happened before doesn’t rule it ever happening at all.

“What are the odds against three hijacked planes being able to fly around North America for hours without being intercepted?” As the American air defence system was set up to deal with threats coming from outside the country probably quite good.

“What are the chances of someone who had never flown anything larger than a Cessna performing a maneuver a skilled pilot would find almost impossible?” None of the hijacked airliners performed any impossible or even difficult manoeuvres.

Oh and the Germans, Japanese and Russians all knew about the Manhatten Project. Several failed attempts were made to get German agents inside Los Alamos; the Russians had more success, five were caught but it’s widely accepted that there more.

The people working at Bletchley Park knew they were working towards the greater good and they did start to break their vows of silence eventually. If 9/11 was the big conspiracy the troofers claim somebody would’ve had an attack of conscience by now.

@ Glenn : you make some fair points and it would be discourteous of me not to acknowledge that. I’ll say no more (for the moment). Have a good day!

Connect the dots.

Syria: UK’s Cameron ‘may veto EU arms embargo’

David Cameron said the UK was “still an independent country”

David Cameron has said the UK would consider vetoing any extension to the European Union’s arms embargo on Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21763345
~~~~~

Prince Charles visits camp for Syrian refugees in Jordan

This is the Royal couple’s second day in Jordan

Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall are visiting a refugee camp in Jordan which is home to people fleeing the conflict in neighbouring Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21766971

“Not true, simply not true but just because it never happened before doesn’t rule it ever happening at all.”

It does however make it a lot more unlikely.

“As the American air defence system was set up to deal with threats coming from outside the country probably quite good.”

Every country had procedures for dealing with hijacked airliners. Airliners had been being hijacked for decades.

“None of the hijacked airliners performed any impossible or even difficult manoeuvres.”

There are a lot of pilots don’t agree with you.

‘“No steel framed building in the world ever collapsed in that way before or since.” Not true, simply not true but just because it never happened before doesn’t rule it ever happening at all.’

It is true. It’s a verifiable fact. Why don’t you at least familiarise yourself with the known facts as made available at ae911truth.org before making strident assertions.

‘just because it never happened before…’ You repeatedly say it’s not true and then acknowledge that it never happened before. You obviously know nothing about what you feel qualified to deny. I am embarrassed for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=877gr6xtQIc
A demolition expert being shown the WTC7 collapse for the first time.

What the deniers here fail to address is that the BBC and others clearly had foreknowledge the building was coming down. There is no skating around that fact. Not only did the building go down symmetrically at free fall speed (i.e. all the buildings main support columns were removed at the same instant), people knew before hand that it was going to do so. It was deliberately demolished. It is undeniable.

“The people working at Bletchley Park knew they were working towards the greater good and they did start to break their vows of silence eventually. If 9/11 was the big conspiracy the troofers claim somebody would’ve had an attack of conscience by now.”

Like Sibel Edmonds you mean.

“just because it never happened before doesn’t rule it ever happening at all”

That is enshrined in the quantum theory as ‘probability’. Quantum theory supports the hypothesis that at any point in time you may turn into a frog – the probability of that happening is so low that it would take an almost infinite amount of time (many times the age of the universe) before it actually happened.

The probability of WTC7, a steel framed building, collapsing in a systematic way due to small unsymmetrical fires is also very very small. Small enough in fact to say that it was more likely another cause, especially a known cause such as controlled demolition. Occam’s razor is sufficient – why attribute something to a highly improbable cause when there is a perfectly probable one? If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks it is likely to be a duck.

@chris2. Without question the Red Army played, in my opinion, the greatest and most costly part in defeating the Nazis, but Stalin didn’t commit to the Allied cause through a belief in a war against aggression. It was entire due to Barbarossa and his desire to survive

His behaviour in Eastern Poland drew no public outcry in either Britain or the USA, “as he only moved in to help the local population” I’m sure that the soon to be permanent inhabitants of the Katyn forest were delighted.

His march into Finland only drew condemnation from Snow, the British minister in Helsinki, whereas the British Chiefs of Staff only acknowledged that the fact we hadn’t declared war on Russian was adding force to Nazi propaganda about the sincerity of the British and French as the Russian behaviour in interfering with the liberty of small States was the same as the Nazis. The “right moment” was deemed to be when the ore deposits of Sweden were threatened

My respect for the Russian people is of the highest degree. Stalin, in my opinion, was a monster on the level of Hitler.

Given that less than 75 years ago our government sold out entire countries, all of a sudden I’m questioning September 11…….. Never really considered that angle…….?

Your points on Thatcher, the government in Argentina and Pinochet are well made, fair play

Thanks for reminding readers here of the facts, Boomtownchav, Stalin and Hitler were of the same wood when it comes to genocide and displacing people en masse.

There are many other fa(c)ts still to be chewed over.

Yeah, verifiable facts on ae911truth, that would be a real first.

Prior to 9/11 plans for dealing with hijackers involved getting the plane landed and safe, negotiating around the hijackers’ demands and, as a definite last resort, having special forces storm the plane. Nobody really thought it would ever be necessary to order a hijacked airliner to be shot down.

WTC 7 suffered more than a few “small fires”. One corner, always the weak point on any building, was seriously damaged by falling debris from one of the other towers and suffered a straightforward progressive collapse. So it fell downwards, what other direction is it going to fall?

http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm

So the BBC were in on the conspiracy as well were they? It gets more ridiculous by the hour.

@Kempe. There are a couple of reasonable voices on this thread, I find Nevermind the most objective, and although a non believer in the September 11 conspiracy, I will read his suggested publication with an open mind.
However your comment is in my opinion is correct in every detail

“Prior to 9/11 plans for dealing with hijackers involved getting the plane landed and safe, negotiating around the hijackers’ demands and, as a definite last resort, having special forces storm the plane. Nobody really thought it would ever be necessary to order a hijacked airliner to be shot down.”

I think it’s safe to say that the standard procedure in any hijacking, or indeed mere loss of radio contact, would be to send up a fighter intercept and indeed that did happen on 9/11, the reasons they were unsuccessful are listed in the 9/11 report and are a comedy of errors.

But you miss the point, the reasons given after the event should not affect the odds before the event, what were the odds that those errors would occur?

“WTC 7 suffered more than a few “small fires”. One corner, always the weak point on any building, was seriously damaged by falling debris from one of the other towers and suffered a straightforward progressive collapse. So it fell downwards, what other direction is it going to fall?”

It was hit by debris from a falling tower, what were the odds against that? Of all the ways that tower could have fallen it landed smack on Building 7 leaving the buildings either side almost untouched. But, as I have said, strange things happen but then what would the chances be of that causing a total collapse at free fall speed several hours later? If you had asked a structural engineer prior to 9/11 I think they would have said pretty remote. In fact, I think they would have said the collapse of the tower which hit it in the manner it collapsed would have been pretty remote, buildings of that type had gone through worse.

“..a comedy of errors ” Indeed; but not a conspiracy.

I believe the Twin Towers contained something approaching half a million tons of material so I’d have thought the chances of something getting struck as it fell would be quite high. However we don’t have to specualte as we know that’s what happened and indeed there is photographic evidence. Anyway, glad to see that we have advanced from “a few small fires” to accepting that the building was heavily damaged.

“..a comedy of errors ” Indeed; but not a conspiracy.

We don’t really know either way.

What I do know is that if I had been one of the hijackers I’d have been expecting to be intercepted and probably decided to hijack a plane from New York airport so I’d have time to get the job done before they could scramble any fighters.

“I believe the Twin Towers contained something approaching half a million tons of material so I’d have thought the chances of something getting struck as it fell would be quite high. However we don’t have to specualte as we know that’s what happened and indeed there is photographic evidence. Anyway, glad to see that we have advanced from “a few small fires” to accepting that the building was heavily damaged.”

I don’t recall saying anything about small fires. It was pretty certain something would be struck, unlikely it would be Building 7 but not the buildings either side if it.

“WTC 7 suffered more than a few “small fires”. One corner, always the weak point on any building, was seriously damaged by falling debris from one of the other towers and suffered a straightforward progressive collapse. So it fell downwards, what other direction is it going to fall?”

How about towards the weakened corner? Why do the other three corners (and the rest of the building) all collapse at the same rate when they are not damaged, are you suggesting the whole building was held up by one corner? I don’t believe how stupid some of these arguments are. Understanding physics, cause and effect and conservation of energy does not make a person a conspiracy theorist. WTC7 was brought down in a controlled demolition. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.

The standard reaction to a hijacking in the UK , before September 11th, was to divert the aircraft, unmolested, to Stanstead Airport in Essex. Regular exercises took place and an aerial intercept was never considered part of that procedure

The fires in the WTC would have involved thousands of gallons of Avtar the effect of which on the steel core of the building is fairly unknown and I doubt if many structural engineers, if any, would have much data on a event of this magnitude

@africom pope

Flying an aircraft into a building at several hundred kph thousands of gallons of fuel burning and cascading through the super structure……I very much doubt if any corners were left undamaged. If there were undamaged corners and only small fires why did people jump to their deaths rather than use the stairs in the undamaged corners?

The July 7th bombings were set up by the intelligence services? Then why murder a Brazilian electrician
on his way to work at Stockwell tube station?

I accept your passionate about this subject but don’t let your passion blinker you to other possibilities

“Flying an aircraft into a building at several hundred kph thousands of gallons of fuel burning and cascading through the super structure……I very much doubt if any corners were left undamaged. If there were undamaged corners and only small fires why did people jump to their deaths rather than use the stairs in the undamaged corners? ”

WTC7 wasn’t hit by a plane.

AP mentioned small fires. Photos of the damage and extensive smoke coming out of WTC 7 here.

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_damage.html

I understand physics, I have a degree in the subject, also cause and effect and the conservation of energy. I see nothing in the progressive collapse of all three buildings that is a problem in any of the three.

The fires in the WTC would have involved thousands of gallons of Avtar the effect of which on the steel core of the building is fairly unknown and I doubt if many structural engineers, if any, would have much data on a event of this magnitude

If the effect of burning thousands of gallons of Avtaron on a steel framed building was fairly unknown before, there is no uncertainty now. The effect is to cause it to collapse neatly into its own footprint. It happened with both towers, and apparently to a third building without the need for any more aviation fuel. A demolition firm would have charged tens of millions to do that. Until 9/11, the only known way of demolishing buildings of this size was to attach hundreds of cutting charges to the load-bearing members and detonate them in a carefully calculated sequence timed to the millisecond. If the charges do not go off symmetrically, the building will collapse to the side.
We can now be pretty confident that these demolition firms have been taking the piss all these years. All you have to do is punch a hole in the side of the building somewhere near the top, pour in a few thousand gallons of fuel, and ignite. Three times out of three, the buildings will fall straight downwards without sideways damage.

“AP mentioned small fires.”

Then take it up with AP instead of pretending I said it.

“Three times out of three, the buildings will fall straight downwards without sideways damage.”

Three times out of two in fact.

Kempe

“The people working at Bletchley Park knew they were working towards the greater good and they did start to break their vows of silence eventually. If 9/11 was the big conspiracy the troofers claim somebody would’ve had an attack of conscience by now.”

The people at Bletchley Park only broke their vows of silence when they were allowed to, once there was no more value in secrecy.
Before the end of the war, Bletchley managed to crack the Enigma machines (due as much to German human failings as to the brilliant mathematicians) but obviously this fact was kept top secret so the Germans would continue to rely on the code. In order to keep the Germans convinced that the code was unbroken, Britain would sometimes allow its ships to be sunk by u-boats even when they they had advance warning.
In the immediate aftermath of the war, the British collected and confiscated thousands of the Enigma Machines. As far as the world knew, these encryption machines were still uncracked, still a method of communicating with of 100% security. So what did Britain do with this ‘guaranteed safe’ method of communication? It gave the machines to its allies and the remaining countries of its Empire, and for the next couple of decades were able to listen in on the ‘secret’ communications of it’s friends. But of course the illusion had to be maintained that they were still secure so the Bletchley people remained unsung heros.
Only in the nineties when the last sucker state realised that they’d been had all these years did the need for secrecy end, and only then was the story told. So I’m afraid, Kempe, that the Bletchley Park saga is actually a good example of quite the opposite to what you claim. It proves that secrets can be kept as long as a state deems it necessary

“The July 7th bombings were set up by the intelligence services? Then why murder a Brazilian electrician on his way to work at Stockwell tube station?”

Did anyone suggest that ALL agencies, at every level had to be in on every supposed plot? JHC… why is it all/nothing with these True Believers? Again – argument from disbelief.

Next, we’ll be hearing how it was perfectly expected that the Twin Towers should drop with near free-fall acceleration, as if the internal structure offers little more resistance than fresh air.

“Only in the nineties when the last sucker state realised that they’d been had all these years did the need for secrecy end, and only then was the story told. ”

The first English language account,F W Winterbotham’s “The Ultra Secret”, was published in 1974. It led to many other people who had worked at Bletchley Park publishing memoirs from the 1970′s onward. Welchman’s seminal Hut Six Story followed in 1981. These people had been sworn to secrecy for life and most certainly did not have state permission to go public.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/gordon_welchman.htm

“Three times out of three, the buildings will fall straight downwards without sideways damage ”

Like I said before what other direction is a building going to fall but downwards?

This is a compilation video of buildings being demolished using a French system called Verinage. Hydraulics are used to initiate a collapse half way up after which the weight of the upper floors crushes those beneath. No explosives or pre-weakening is used but you’ll note the speed of collapse and the amount of dust created. There is a clear parallel with the WTC except there the initial collapse was cause by impact and fire damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwFHEoiUZ7o

@Glen_uk. JHC…..why is it all / nothing with these True Believers. It seems that both parties suffer from the same problem.

“This is a compilation video of buildings being demolished using a French system called Verinage. Hydraulics are used to initiate a collapse half way up after which the weight of the upper floors crushes those beneath. No explosives or pre-weakening is used but you’ll note the speed of collapse and the amount of dust created. There is a clear parallel with the WTC except there the initial collapse was cause by impact and fire damage.”

So you’re saying that if a team of demolition experts go in and weaken the supports of a building in just the right places the result looks a lot like the collapse of the WTC buildings?

Now there is a coincidence.

Does this technique work on steel framed buildings as well?

Psychologists Explain 9/11 Denial

The denial of the facts surrounding 9/11 “inside job” attacks are rooted in the fear of the insignificance of those holding onto the official version.

The heat generated by the TNT explosions are in the order of 570 degrees Celsius, yet the heat generated from the incomplete combustion of avgas seem to be much higher!!!!

Kempe, regarding Bletchley Park.
I was referencing from memory “The Code Book” by Simon Singh. I’ve lent it to a friend so can’t check it now. I’m pretty sure of the substance of what I said but I’ll need to check the dates.
I’ll get back to you on this one …..

Kempe, regarding WTC.

You’re kind of missing the point. I’m asking whether it’s plausible that a fire at the top of a tower can cause such a perfect collapse three times out of three. Your’re responding by saying that a team of skilled demolition experts can do it.

Here’s some other points. I admit I’m making some judgements from the video which you could argue about :

As near as I can tell, all the buildings in your video are much squatter than the twin towers. It looks like none of them have a height to width ratio greater than 2 to 1. As opposed to:
1,368 ft high (north tower)
1,362 ft high (south tower)
208 ft by 208 ft at base
i.e. a height to width ratio of over 6.5 to 1

In the video demolition is initiated around the halfway mark in most cases. In the twin towers, the fire was near the top – 15% of the buildings brought down the other 85%.

In videos of the twin tower collapses, flashes are seen which look like detonation “squibs” going off. Debunkers like yourself say that these are actually jets of compressed air from the collapse. Why do we not see any of these in any of the buildings in your verinage video?

It is very difficult to find information about the verinage technique. Not even Wikipedia has an entry on it. However, from my extensive research over the last ten minutes, it seems that they weaken the central members to encourage an inward collapse, skilled demolition rather than an inherent weakness in the construction. Also it seems that verinage is not suitable for steel framed buildings. If you have information to the contrary, please post it.

” …. you’ll note the speed of collapse and the amount of dust created.”

Here’s someone making a good case that the verinage speed of collapse shows significant differences from WTC:

http://911debunkers.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/debunker-verinage-fantasies-are-bunk.html

The amateur sleuth who calculated this is honest about the limitations of his technique.

“I very much doubt if any corners were left undamaged.”

Why doubt when there is much photographic evidence showing that the building was MOSTLY undamaged? If you watch the free fall collapse of WTC7 (not ‘progressive’ as someone claimed – it is collapsing in one instant after all its support was removed) the biggest clue to controlled demolition is that the centre begins to collapse a fraction of a second before the rest of the building. That is known in the demolition industry as a ‘crease’ it is deliberately created so the building falls in on itself. It takes perfect timing in removing the supports, to within hundredths of a second, to create that effect. Shame that people are so bamboozled that they cannot trust what they see with their own eyes.

I also see that some people are confusing WTC1 and WTC2 with WTC7. Why would people that aren’t even familiar with which building is being discussed feel qualified to even comment on, let alone attempt to debunk without any evidence at all, the know laws of physics?

The most important fact about verinage is that it shows that a building, any building, can be brought down by progressive collapse without every floor having to be rigged with explosives. This totally destroys the central core of the argument for controlled demolition. The claim that verinage is not suitable for steel framed buildings (which to date I’ve only seen on truther sites) is irrelvant, it only relates to how the collapse is initiated. Whilst the collapses are started about half way up in most of the videos these are all much smaller buildings so the falling mass is very much smaller too. According to the conspiracy version of physics the upper floors should fall upon the lower and then stop. It should be obvious now how ridiculous this idea is. Once hundreds or thousands of tons of building start moving downwards nothing is going to stop it until it hits the ground.

In case anyone missed this

“How the ‘war on terror’ in England became a war on women and children ”

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/03/20133912211317464.html

“The most important fact about verinage is that it shows that a building, any building, can be brought down by progressive collapse without every floor having to be rigged with explosives.”

So it wouldn’t have taken a team of men weeks to plant tons of explosives connected with miles of wire. A couple of men could do it in an afternoon.

Kemp says, “The most important fact about verinage is that it shows that a building, any building, can be brought down by progressive collapse without every floor having to be rigged with explosives. This totally destroys the central core of the argument for controlled demolition.”

Are you saying verinage is NOT controlled demolition? I’d like to see a single example of it being used on a steel-framed building with a central core. You won’t find one, though. Guaranteed. Because the technique could never work on one.

Since you bring up physics, which happens to be something I know a little about, could you please explain how the collapsing structure of the building did not substantially arrest the downward progression, such that it collapsed at near free-fall speed. I’ll go into detail of this if you’re up for it, but it concerns the conservation of momentum – Newton’s laws of motion – principles that are pretty well established, actually.

Could you also please explain how an entirely downward force (i.e. gravity, acting in each case exactly downwards) could allow for the lateral projection of items from parts of fingers, to multiple ton steel beams, for many hundreds of yards? Fingertips and so on were found on rooftops substantial distances away. Girders were likewise ejected.

Of course collapsing buildings will fall downwards, but not symmetrically like WTC7 unless precisely controlled to do so, definitely not into their own footprint, and most particularly not when they have roughly the same relative dimensions as a pencil. Again, you argue from a position of ignorance – no offence.

I don’t claim to be in possession of the truth, but while facts like these are waved away by True Believers, it’s pretty obvious the real story is a bit more interesting that the official one they’re happy to swallow like a Good German.

*

New evidence to cast doubt (apart from in the minds of True Believers) on the Official Report:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34304.htm

@Africom Pope: My apologies, I did conflate WTC1&2 with WTC7 in a couple of posts. Some people are interested in the impossibility of the official story when it comes to the immediate collapse of WTC7, and I can certainly understand that.

The Official Story on the amazing demise of WTC1&2 takes some beating, though. It almost ranks aside religion in its ability to rely upon mass delusion.

Damn, missed this the first time around.

Kemp says: “The most important fact about verinage is that it shows that a building, any building…”

Oh come on. Where in the name of love is proof of your assertion – any building? A cheap block of flats the authorities wanted rid of, compared with the lovingly constructed WTCs – built to withstand planes accidentally flying into them, and hurricanes? Built out of entirely different materials, and on and on… ?

How can you conflate all buildings as being exactly the same.

It always baffles me with you people. Are you really this daft, or trying to deceive?

@Africom Pope. WTC7 wasn’t hit by a plane, but it was connected to the twin towers by extensive under ground car parks the same ones that were targeted by a car bomb around 1983. (I actually have the floor plans which were part of the original sales pitch to Merrill Lynch) I’m no expert but I would suspect that millions of tons of steel and concrete smashing through these under ground chambers would have had a destabilising effect on WTC7. I’m sure that the official line that was spun out after the attacks does leave out major details as does your theory and mine, because we simply don’t know what happened. Your contempt for anyone who doesn’t go along with your version of events only undermines your version

As I have said before the security services just are not that good. Prime example the story of Captain Robert Nairac MC.

“As I have said before the security services just are not that good. ”

A very good point. The people who planned and executed 9/11, who, so it’s claimed, planted hundreds of tons of evidence under the noses of thousands of eye-witnesses, would’ve been the same ones who were unable to plant any convincing WMDs in Iraq.

The website for AE911truth describes each building as collapsing downwards through the path of greatest resistance. It’s claimed this is impossible, it’s claimed the supports of every floor would have to be destroyed with explosives. The progressive collapse exploited by verinage proves these comments to be incorrect.

Structural engineers will only make a building as strong as it needs to be, a typical factor of safety would 2 to 2.5 and that’s as true of the WTC as it is of crummy social housing in France. Once the top part of a building starts to fall it will hit the lower floors with a dynamic force many times greater than the design load causing an immediate and simultaneous failure of all the supporting members. As the building collapses some of this enegry will be directed sideways as columns buckle and floors collapsing one on the other will expell the air between them like two hands being clapped together. That’s why material was thrown sideways.

Kemp wrote, “…The progressive collapse exploited by verinage proves these comments to be incorrect.”

Are you lazy? Wilfully ignorant, hope for the same in others? Are you here to repeatedly assert, or dare you not acknowledge the fact I’ve addressed this a couple of points above?

If you rest your hat on this verinage form of demolition, and are uninterested in further discussion on the plausibility of that or anything else, fine. But then the verdict will be that that particular person believes in the completely impossible.

I put several questions directly to you, just above. Are you interested in the truth, or satisfied with a plausible-sounding lie to idiots who haven’t actually got a clue?

Kempe – everything you have said is easily disproved – indeed most of it is just ridiculous nonsense not even worth responding to. Getting people spinning around and around in pointless arguments seems to be your only desire.

Talking with pseudo authority means that those who are not aware of the full facts may assume that you know something about that which you are talking about, and may even accept that there is a point to your arguments, some may even be comforted by your dismissals. This is obviously all you are concerned about; not with those that *know* the official explanation is nonsense but with those that don’t and, presumably, that the way you want it to stay – a world of unenquiring minds being spoon-fed what little they know by faceless ‘officials’ and the MSM.

“A very good point. The people who planned and executed 9/11, who, so it’s claimed, planted hundreds of tons of evidence under the noses of thousands of eye-witnesses, would’ve been the same ones who were unable to plant any convincing WMDs in Iraq.”

Why would they want to plant WMDs in Iraq?

I can understand why they would want to let 9/11 happen, hundreds of billions of dollars, I can understand why the owners of the WTC would want to see that they were totally destroyed. If they had been bothered about WMDs they would have planted some, it didn’t matter, you can’t prove a negative, that’s how they got Saddam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKX6luiMINQ

“Kempe – everything you have said is easily disproved ”

OK then. Over to you. Start disproving.

Fred:- The US were eager to justify the invasion of Iraq and spent a lot of time and money searching for the non-existent WMDs once they were there. It should’ve been child’s play to plant some gas shells or fissile material somewhere for the troops to find. Not only that but the paper evidence presented to justify the invasion was totally unconvincing too. The guys who allegedly pulled off 9/11 should’ve been able to do much better.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/07/usa.iraq1

“OK then. Over to you. Start disproving.” Why don’t you head over to ae911truth.org and tell everyone what’s wrong with their data and why you know better than over 1,500 qualified architects, engineers and eye witnesses?

You have also just confirmed what I have already said about you and your motivations.

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin.

No need. It’s already been done.

http://ae911truth.info/wordpress/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dvv-Yib1Xg&feature=player_embedded