Drone Murder

by craig on October 24, 2012 10:16 am in Uncategorized

I had a half-formed post in mind to work on this morning, but then I read Glenn Greewald’s latest and concluded that if you are going to devote ten minutes of your day, nothing I could write would be as profitable as your reading him.

I would only add the obvious fact that Blair had already done to New Labour precisely what Obama has done to the Democrats; and that western “democracy” has lost its meaning because the institutionally entrenched parties offer no actual policy choice to voters, but are all neo-conservative.

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  1. Neil Saunders

    24 Oct, 2012 - 10:29 am

    And yet the yelping border collies of the mainstream media seem able to corral the populace into one or other of the large, indistinguishable sheep-pens of party politics, don’t they, Craig?

  2. nothing I could write would be as profitable as your reading him.

    No, no, Craig! (etc)
    But you’re right.
    Read it, fellow sycophants. Read it.

  3. Citizens cannot identify themselves to – or physically surrender to – an IED; or to a drone. Citizens who aspire to resist asassination as an acceptable method of conducting political disputes should not surrender to anyone the authority to deploy IEDs or drones on their behalf. Especially not if his name is POTUS.

  4. Craig, for those who are too busy or exhausted to spent ten minutes I would suggest watching a video by Deek Jackson at

  5. The ‘kill list’ is a wonderful piece of electioneering. It’s like the military industrial complex has a politics branch to act as a communications unit with sod all ability to amend decision making. I’m not too bothered about the US, don’t live there – none of my business, but when the EU is blatantly positioning itself to get access to such mechanisms then it’s really just game over. No one in charge gives a toss any more, no one changes group think, says hang on a mo – i’m not happy with this. Ah, fuck it, the Guv’nor of the Bank of England has just admitted that half a trillion quid was just pissed down the drain and yet it hardly makes news as Jimmy Savile was a necrophiliac. Despair and fury went about 3 years ago, all that is left is booze. Screw it.

  6. The older I get, the more I miss old Saddam Hussein. Back in two thousand and something he proposed an alternative resolution of Iraq War Two: he challenged Boy Bush to a wrestling match. It’s no surprise that Baby Boy turned him down.

  7. It was an excellent article.

    Curiously, Drones seemed to just ‘appear’. Clearly, drones are the product of decades of R&D, and large (public) investment, so they didn’t appear as if by magic. No, they were foisted upon us by the military-media-industrial complex, and none of us can do much about it. Who decided that drones were ok however? Not the public, for sure.

    For me, I see very little substantive difference between a drone and, say, a landmine. Both kill friend and foe alike, and cause great pain and suffering in the communities involved. Of course, the US opted out of the landmine treaty, for reasons that remain unclear (http://www.uscbl.org). It’s genuinely hard to think of any reason at all that a democracy would opt out of a treaty banning landmines. We can be sure that any attempt to make drones illegal, as they should be, will be met with fierce resistance by the US and its proxies, but what troubles me is how thin the pro-drone arguments really are. They aren’t trying anymore. They can’t be bothered, and just trot out PR to fool the un-educated, or indifferent. I’ve yet to hear an argument for drones that doesn’t make me laugh at its absurdity.

    So, of course, such arguments are rote in media land. Indeed, in the current US elections, it’s even worse: they don’t even bother with the absurdities. They just state, declaritive style, that they are killing terrorists. Which is, of course, enough. Greenwald’s article is very good, as usual, but one can’t help get the feeling that US elites are beyond such facts and reason, and have entered a phase that can only really be called fascist. Call it authoritarian, if the ‘f’ word displeases you – but whatever it is, it isn’t democracy.

    Nothign short of making drones illegal is enough, unless – see Nuremeberg principles – there is an actual, immediate theat to a nation-state. But who cares about the Nuremberg principles anymore?

  8. Sorry Mary.

    I was being procvocative and lazy.

    I will read up later and draw my own.conclusion.

  9. This drone policy is disturbing beyond belief. It is the ultimate in cowardice. Somebody sitting in a safe environment thousands of miles away playing with a joystick that is destroying real lives. In the seventies Professor Carlo Cipolla said that ‘man is still a savage but the weapons at his disposal are more sophisticated.’ Today they are, by those standards, even more sophisticated, unbelievably more so. I have one word for anyone who operates one of these deadly joysticks: COWARD.

    But eventually the technology will go global. As I write Noor Khan, who lost realtives to a drone strike, is questioning William Hague about the legality of the UK drone programme. The US and UK will not always be at the leading edge of technology. If countries like Azerbaijan is using drones (supplied by Israel) along the Armenian border, it is clear that there will come a day when those cowards sitting by their US/UK joysticks will be vulnerable too.


  10. “western “democracy” has lost its meaning because the institutionally entrenched parties offer no actual policy choice to voters, but are all neo-conservative.”

    I would actually go further. I would say that not only has western ‘democracy’ lost its meaning, but that there is NO western ‘democracy’ any more. We live in dictatorships of 4-5 years (depending on the country’s election laws). We can vote for a different dictatorship – heavy or light – every 4-5 years & once we have voted, those ‘elected’ (normally by 30% or less of the elctorate) do whatever they want, regardless of any election programme they may have published…we are not represented any more.

  11. “UK support for US drones in Pakistan may be war crime, court is told”

    Lawyers for Pakistani man whose father was killed by drone strike seek to have sharing of UK intelligence declared unlawful


  12. That is very nice of you Jay to say that. Sorry if I sounded snappy. I am concerned about Clark. What can we do to get him back?

  13. Picking off the ‘Taliban’ with UACVs.


  14. Clark.

    The future is unwritten. Work hard do your best and believe for a better future for all our sakes.

    Love everyone!

  15. Arthur Silber has another powerful piece on the whole sorry scenario here http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com.au/

  16. Agreed wrt drones etc.

    Now to this zombie-like idea that somehow ‘western democracy’ used to be more effective, democratic etc and is now in retreat. Please supply evidence.

    I think there is a more compelling explanation. Representative democracy was a revolutionary development for its time, a sea change from various private tyrannies that preceded it. As the franchise was extended to larger and larger sections of society the scale of barbarity and exploitation diminished in proportion. Self-evidently, the effects of democracy are most felt at home, understandably less so abroad since foreigners don’t take part in our elections. Large scale violence and famine are now unthinkable in the west.

    However representative democracy (what is broadly understood by ‘western democracy’) has nearly exhausted its potential for further improvement. Moreover with the emergence of more accessible alternative news channels, notably internet and foreign satellite tv, we are becoming more aware of the unfulfilled promise of representative democracy and of the evils that have always been perpetrated in our name. Our democracy has not changed but our awareness of what goes on has increased. This awareness always grows more acute in times of crisis and need as we are compelled to question more of what we take for granted in good times.

    Our democracy hasn’t retreated. It was crippled from the start since it was always about ‘representation’ and party politics, and now we are slowly coming to terms with it.

  17. I am concerned about Clark. What can we do to get him back?
    Nothing, beyond showing your support, and you and several others of us have. He’ll need time off anyway, I’m guessing. If he’s any sense he won’t be reading this for now. If he is –


  18. The use of drones has been spreading beyond the military for several years. The UK Police have been using unarmed drones for a while. So have demonstrators.

    You can buy one to control with your phone from Selfridges.




  19. Komodo 24 Oct, 2012 – 2:41 pm

    Get drunk. Joining a choir sounds great. But please don’t go fishing – it is a cruel sport. Just imagine ‘fishing’ your dog.

    But I’m just a soggy, dog-loving, fish-friendly lentil eater.

  20. I thought you ate flies and other insects!

    Have you heard that Bettison has ‘resigned’? He says his hands are completely clean!


    Are the walls going to tumble down as these structural cracks get bigger?

  21. But flies taste so good. And anyway I have yet to develop higher brain functions.

    Bettison will get by very nicely on his pension and some consultancy work.

  22. In deference to Phil, strike ‘fishing’. (Except for edible species you are definitely going to eat.) Errr…how about GO SKATEBOARDING ?

  23. My anti-drone drone jammer becomes higher priority.

    O/T -I repeat the screws are turning down on freedom, one thread at a time – John Kiriakou jailed for whistle-blowing on torture:


    Recommend – Buy a cheap short-wave radio to receive UK-Collapse instructions as needed. Frequencies will be 28666kHz & 7166kHZ

  24. I see Selfridges’ drone is wi-fi enabled. It would be no more than poetic justice to jam one and crash it with a BT HomeHub.

  25. Mark Golding – Children of Conflict 24 Oct, 2012 – 4:24 pm
    “Recommend – Buy a cheap short-wave radio to receive UK-Collapse instructions as needed. Frequencies will be 28666kHz & 7166kHZ”

    Ooh, please elaborate Mark. That sounds like some info I should have next to my stockpile of spam.

  26. @Mark

    Sorry my above comment sounds facetious. It isn’t. I am genuinely intrigued by what that means and where you got it.

  27. Like something out of a trashy Sci-fi book from the sixties, Craig-but really happening right now. Amazing how those who think this murderous rubbish is O.K. never seem to realise that what goes around usually comes around, due to the fact that they are terminally psychopathic idiots. And so the Neocon juggernaut thunders onward. A piece from yourself on the scary march of the Neocons would be welcomed by many.

  28. Someone earlier remarked that drones didnt just ‘appear’,that they’ve been planned for years.

    Where else did the gaming market spin-off from?

    Think Google Maps,flight sims on the PC and X-boxes etc were just a product for consumer hobbies?

  29. Clark,

    Your contributions on this site over years have been invaluable and much appreciated by the vast majority.

    Do take some time out if possible and know that you’re in our thoughts.

    Peace bro.

  30. Looks like Tom Watson put the cat amongst the pigeons at question time today.

    wonder if anything will change? Leveson needs to be challenged in his Inquiry about this stuff

  31. Looking at various court cases and politicians’ uttterances (or refusals to utter, for that matter)over the last few months, I get the impression that the masks and gloves are really coming off. What passes as duly constitued authority is basically putting two fingers up at the citizenry.
    Who agrees?

  32. @ 4.24 pm. Wonderful that Mark Golding. Could anybody portray the CIA other than negatively unless it is the CIA itself – and that’s disinformation.

    The plea-bargain aspect of the US legal system is its biggest shortcoming. Admit you’re guilty whether you are or not and you get a lighter sentence. Do not agree to a plea bargain and you’re locked away forever. That is why Theresa May has sent 5 UK Muslims who have never been charged in this country to the United States: so they can plea bargain their way into a guilty verdict, which could not happen over here. Doesn’t it disgust you?

  33. re the Savile case : BBC’s Helen Boaden steadfastly refuses to comment or give any statement about her role. Helen Boaden reportedly gets £354.000 a year (about 14 times average/median UK earnings)and, as she is paid by public funds, is a public servant. WTF ???????

  34. “I am concerned about Clark. What can we do to get him back?”

    Somehow I don’t think he wants to come back – as a moderator. I hope he comes back as a commenter, if/when he feels so inclined.

    Meanwhile, I’d be concerned about the workload on Jon. The number of comments here seems to have increased enormously (?) – even leaving aside the */** and al Hilli threads. And there are still adjustments to the code being requested (including by me on occasion.)

    I think there’s an assumption, by some, that a mod is on duty ~24 hours a day. And that has to stop. The mods are only voluntary after all.

    Just my 2c.

  35. I agree. Moderating here must be a time consuming and mostly thankless task. So let me add my thanks to Clark and Jon.

  36. You can only squeeze so much juice out of a cherry before it turns to mush, Dreolin, I join your concerns.

    Its not that there is a queue of IT savvy contenders for the job, well versed in most aspects of foreign policy, knowledgeable in open source software and encryption matters.

    What trust would we place in a completely new face we’d never knew?
    How would this change the unwritten symbiosis that seem to exist between us collectively, like a life form of its own?

  37. “I have yet to develop higher brain functions.” – you are not paying attention – are you Phil…

  38. Sadly not Ramon Zarate

    24 Oct, 2012 - 6:41 pm

    Sadly just because your right doesn’t stop you being cast as as a nutter. Ask around about who else went along with the Savile affair to keep their careers on track.

    best wishes.,don’t give up,


  39. Mark Golding – Children of Conflict 24 Oct, 2012 – 6:33 pm
    “You are not paying attention – are you Phil”

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at mate. What have I missed?

  40. It was interesting to note that the Pop-up Robin Wilcox appeared on TV to defend the Drones as a spokesperson for the Zionist and so called libertarian and protector of human rights
    The Henry Jackson society .What a Joke ! It is interesting to note the the characters behind the society.http://henryjacksonsociety.org/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Jackson_Society


  41. This is worth a watch.

    Lord of the Drones
    Written by Heathcote Williams; narration and visual montage by Alan Cox. Handsome Dog Productions, London/New York/Moscow: 





  42. A recent study from Stanford concluded that drone attacks are counterproductive for the US in the sense that the killing of muslim civilians in muslim countries creates the conditions for the killing of US civilians by ‘terrorists’ on American soil.

    So how can we explain the US government’s continued justification for their use in a pragmatic sense?

    My only rational explanation is that the US government regards the killing of US civlians on US soil as ‘a price worth paying’ in terms of what are perceived as the implementation of wider US strategic objectives in the region.

    If there is any doubt that the US establishment regards the killing of all civilians as merely a footnote in the pursuit of their long-term aims, then Greenwald’s piece removes all doubt.

  43. Dave Lawton

    You mean this dangerous indivudual? I see he is an expert on Alki Ada too.


    I wonder if he would like some of the same medicine that is being bestowed on the innocents by the USUKIsNATO axis? He has hate in his heart for the brown skinned people.

    Robin Simcox is a Research Fellow at the Henry Jackson Society. Beforehand, he was a Research Fellow at the Centre for Social Cohesion, a think tank studying extremism and terrorism in the UK. He has written for the likes of the Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, New Republic, Weekly Standard and the Guardian; and comments in the media for the likes of the BBC, Sky News, al-Jazeera and Fox News. Robin has spoken on a variety of platforms, including the British Parliament, US Special Operations Command and the European Parliament. Robin has an MSc in U.S. Foreign Policy from the Institute for the Study of Americas, University of London, and a BA in History (International) from the University of Leeds, which included a year at the University of Newcastle, Australia.
    His output

  44. Michael Stephenson

    24 Oct, 2012 - 9:19 pm

    Glenn Greenwalds article today is even more chilling:

    Its is a reaction to a Washington Post article on the creation of the “Disposition Matrix” a kind of “Kill List” 2.0:


  45. @ Mary
    “You mean this dangerous indivudual? I see he is an expert on Alki Ada too.”

    Thanks for your interesting comments Mary .

  46. Anybody know who the aide to the former PM was that Tom Watson said today at PMQ’s was connected to an international pedophile ring?

  47. Sorry for O/T: No mention just now on the main BBC news of Tom Watson’s question at today’s PMQs of a paedophile ring liked to the aide of a former Prime Minister. And yet they talk about an erosion of trust in the corporation! You really couldn’t script it.
    It’s also very convenient that CC Bettison has chosen today to resign. Another lying copper. Another generously feathered early retirement.
    The BBC’s piece on Savile tonight was rushed, stressing that the various inquiries should be allowed to take their course. A line is being drawn under this, and it may well be because it doesn’t stop at Savile. Who knows, it might make the Hollie Greig business look like a little local difficulty (except of course to the woman and her family)

  48. The best parallel with drones are the Terminator movies and the dystopic world they present. Given the fact that those building them desire drones to have the ability to “think” independently, that wolrd is a very distinct probability, and sooner than most think.

  49. Speaking of drones, I’m just now reading Daniel Klaidman’s Kill or Capture: The War on Terror and the Soul of the Obama Presidency, it’s far too favorably in my opinion to the Obama administration, but it’s nevertheless very informative. What’s particularly depressing in it is that, if the book is right, the Obama administration backed down on things like closing Guantanamo and trying accused terrorists in normal civilian trials because it saw too much political danger in it, because people in Congress opposed such plans because they believe the American people opposed them.

  50. Lysias @ 10.07

    There are probably more than one.

  51. “Anybody know who the aide to the former PM was…” (Lysias, 10.07 pm)

    However, The Independent understands that Mr Watson’s comments were not aimed at either Sir Edward (Heath) or Sir Peter (Morrison), but at a living person associated with Margaret Thatcher’s administration.


    The name of Leon Brittan has been borne to some on a light and deniable breeze. Allegedly.

  52. According to Wikipedia, Leon Brittan returned to government in August 2010 to act as a trade advisor to the new coalition government. Is he still serving in that capacity?

  53. Like you say Craig, the article says it all.

    How have we got to the posistion. Nothing can be done I fear,

    I am so ashamed that it we behave in this manner.

    Words can’t describe the content of that article.

  54. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    24 Oct, 2012 - 11:29 pm

    “However representative democracy (what is broadly understood by ‘western democracy’) has nearly exhausted its potential for further improvement.”


    Yes, the Great Experiment…. There is support for the notion some devolution is going on in US democracy, but let me ask you; When Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon man were competing for dominance of their environment, did Evolution stop? I suggest it is ongoing in spite of the premature obituary.

  55. Democracy does not have to be representative democracy, or at any rate democracy through elected representatives. Although the highest executive officials were elected in ancient Athens, the rest of the government was either direct democracy (all adult male citizens could attend the Assembly, and in practice an awful lot of them did) or representative through representatives chosen randomly, by lot, from all male citizens above the age of 30.

    I think Western countries should seriously consider adopting at least some of that system.

  56. My money’s on this guy (who claimed to be a Thatch advisor, but isn’t even mentioned in her memoirs) Literally swivel-eyed lunatic. Christopher “Lord” Monckton.


    Image is disturbing.

  57. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    24 Oct, 2012 - 11:58 pm


    Many of the same hijinks occurred in Grecian politics. Plato, observing wealthy candidates campaigning poor districts said:

    “Your vanity shows through every hole in your garments”.

  58. Ben F, Lysias
    Indeed – I have been banging on about it for years now. Representative democracy (parliamentary democracy / parliamentary rule or whatever else they call it) has been superseded, has evolved if you like, in some places. Most notably in Switzerland where they refer to their political system as Direct Democracy. The name is a little misleading since the Athenian democracy is the classical direct democracy. The Swiss system is in fact a representative democracy with direct democracy superimposed as back-up. It is a very effective system of government whatever metric you choose, when compared with the bog-standard ‘regular free elections + free speech’.

  59. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 12:26 am


    Athenian democracy excluded women, and those without military service, from voting. I understand now, that you mean the current dynamic of democracy has reached it’s peak of competence. What, short of Revolution, are the options?. Most I assume would require Amendments to the Constitution (a VERY high bar for our constituents), would they not?

  60. Jon, Clark, Mark G – thanks for your encouraging words on a previous thread. I, too, would like to stop by here more often but have very little time to myself these days. Clark – hope your troubles blow over soon, take care.

  61. Ben F,
    yes – revolutionary change no less but I think as societies democratise revolutions become less violent. E.g. I understand in Germany there is majority support in parliament for the introduction of Initiative & Referendum rights at state level. Progress is blocked by the Christian Democrats but in principle this could change. Other places where Direct Democracy has taken root recently are Uruguay and Venezuela to name but two examples. More info on the web, a good source is Initiative and Referendum Institute Europe (IRI-Europe). As Victor Hugo allegedly said – there is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come. I’m feeling optimistic today :-)

  62. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 12:55 am

    Ev; Thank for direct responses to specific questions. It’s refreshing. Be careful about espousing the non-violent path, though. It’s not very appreciated here.

  63. “Disposition Matrix” eh?

    Well,it won’t happen tomorrow but,be in no doubt,soon enough,if this paradigm develops many posters on such sites as this will be in the crosshairs.

    You better believe it.

    Genuinely terrifying.

  64. A friend of mine has just built a hexacopter. Six rotors powered by a lithium battery that will keep it in the air for over 30 minutes carrying 1kg payload, probably about 20 km range. Arduino chip with onboard GPS, accelerometer, gyroscope and barometer controls stability and positioning.
    He uses it for aerial photography but you could give it a GPS position 10 miles away from you and have it release its cargo from a predetermined altitude.
    The mind boggles at the possibilities.
    They’ll ban them.

  65. Your welcome Evgueni –

    “we have to kill their children in order to protect our children” – thank-you for your kindness Craig. – “We have to murder a million to save the world” – clearly it is the same mind – the same set of conditioned thoughts as those who murder by proxy, remotely, detached; a game of death, a game of destruction where the pain is hidden, unseen – isolated by the aether, disconected by the mind.

    Those are the hands of death on the joystick – the ones that know not.

  66. Commesick Commesark

    25 Oct, 2012 - 6:56 am

    Practically speaking, the Savile dossier holding the names (and pics?) of the coprophiliacs,necrophiliacs & like in high places needs to be unearthed. Its powerful enough for lezi Bouden (and such in the upper echelons of the BBC) to have implored upon Peter Rippon to shelve any Newsnight revelations. It reeks of the complete and utter disdain of the chosenites for the goyim, especially the orphaned, mentally ill and even their dead corpses.

  67. We know that the use of drones by the US is counterproductive. So what is their pragmatic justification for continuing with the policy?

    The priorities of the US government appear to be the sublimation of humanitarian considerations with regards to both Pakistani muslim and American civilians, in favour of the overall attainment of geo-strategic imperatives.

    In other words, it would seem the US government regards the killing of civilians on both sides, as a ‘price worth paying’ in achieving these aims.

  68. English Knight.

    It is not about the quantity of “yids and gays“ im parliament, its the quality.

    If us Goyim showed a little more disdain on principles of morality then the said qualities of the quantities you highlight.

    So your point is relevant in terms that are not conducive to your point.

    So worry not.

  69. Re. “Lord” B’Stard Bichard’s own community service:

    1: Directorships

    Non-executive Director, Parker Capital Limited (provides support services to public sector)
    2: Remunerated employment, office, profession etc.

    Adviser, Cronin Management Consultants (consultancy advising Fire Services)

    Adviser, Ten Lifestyle Management Limited (company providing concierge services to public and private sectors)

    Adviser, The Design Council

    Editor, Solace Foundation Imprint (publication concerned with public service issues)

    Probably has to go to the food bank for a meal….

  70. Komodo. Yes I looked him up. Disgusting hypocrite. He has been a place person right enough.

    But never mind all this. Courage mes braves! Raise the union flags! Rejoice!

    THE RECESSION IS OVER. Really? Who says so? Cameron of course.


  71. O/T

    In Craig’s recent BBC interview with Kevin Essler on the Assange business, I felt that Craig’s microphone had been turned down so that his contributions were (acoustically) weaker than those of the other speakers. It seems that this is becoming a standard BBC tactic to discredit uncomfortable opinions. The ruse of aggressive and witless interruption was also evident in Craig’s interview.


  72. Hostages to fortune, eh? If it goes down next quarter, it’ll be a triple-dip recession, lol.

  73. Vronsky, I thought that in the Gavin Esler interview. It is quite clear by the very small number of invitations to participate in TV debates that such an influential commentator as Craig Murray gets, that the emphasis is heavily weighted against justice.

  74. A lesson in not answering a question. Yesterday’s PMQs.

    Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab):
    Can the Prime Minister explain the relationship between Virgin Care donations to the Tory party, the number of Virgin Care shareholders on clinical commissioning group boards and the number of NHS contracts that have been awarded to Virgin Care?

    The Prime Minister:
    All donations to political parties are properly disclosed and properly announced, but the difference, I have to say, between the donations that the Conservative party gets from individuals and businesses, and the trade unions’ donations to the Labour party is that they effectively buy votes at the Labour party’s conference and policies in its manifesto, and they vote for the Labour leader as well. The trade unions pay the money, they get the votes. That is the scandal in funding parties.

    A result. http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/wow-all-300-virgin-doctors-resign-from.html

    Two of the many previous links on the same site about Virgin/Assura

    BBC accept their report of Virgin Court case was “flawed” and now report that Virgin Childcare deal was “unlawful”

    Virgin Care have links to 80+ of the doctors on 21 of the new NHS Bodies created by the Tory NHS Bill.

  75. BBC headlines

    Viable Afghanistan ‘may not work’
    The UK might have to recognise that creating a viable state in Afghanistan is not achievable, an influential group of MPs says.


    The Royal British Legion launches poppy appeal for 2012
    NEW 11 hours ago
    The Royal British Legion has launched this year’s poppy appeal with a target of £42m.

    No irony. Someone said yesterday on Radio 4 Today that the time has come round again for politicians to wear their poppies as a symbol of their own patriotic virility.

  76. I missed this one out.

    Two British deaths in Afghanistan
    25 October 2012 Last updated at 09:12
    A Royal Marine and a female soldier have been killed while on patrol in Afghanistan – the woman is the third who has died since the conflict began.

  77. however nice one tries, in plain words to make it obvious that Craig has not got all the answers, one gets censored for doing so.
    Fine, its his blog and he can lie on it as long as he likes.

    Lashing out at those who posted here for a while will not make the following sock puppets go away, but a sign up policy and a working brief for moderators might just do it.

    Sock puppets below ‘R’us…..

    Golden Oldies, McVities Digestives, Wagon Wheels, Apple Pies, Malted
    Milk, Sock Puppet (!), Tea Cakes, Propaganda class #1, Lemon Puffs, WTC7
    Controlled Demolition, Jim’ll Dick It, War Dance, *** ***, ***War Dance,
    ***Popular Belief, ***Yeah yeah, whatever…, ***Click Me (leading to page
    linked below), ***Crime against humainty, ***dn pǝssǝɯ ǝɹɐ noʎ,
    ***Israel Is Good…., ***In the land of the blind…., smelly pants,
    TwiterYeNot, lies enslave the mind, In 4 a penny in 4 a £, Some
    Truth For You, Nest of Cryptos, Full Spectrum Dominance, Dave and
    Nick suck bankers cock, The bleeding obvious, slapper,
    GoodGrief, DWTSOT, Piss Princess, DownWithThisSortOfThing, Toodledoo,
    and Mark.

  78. Savile dropping like a stone now on the BBC website. They’re clearly desperate to get rid of the story. Given the legs this is growing — pressure on Rippon from above, aide to former Prime Minister — this could do some real damage to the establishment. No wonder the corporation is running away from it. Instead, let’s revisit the Olympics, and how good it was for Britain…

  79. What Nevermind said. And you might also consider turning this into a forum. Which won’t take any more moderation, and it’s easier to access topics. Many of which die prematurely under the present system. Also, use captcha for registration at least.

  80. Thanks Komodo.

  81. O/T

    http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=289096 (some hilarious quotes here)

    Drivin’ that train
    High on cocaine
    Casey Jones you better
    watch your speed
    Trouble ahead
    Trouble behind
    and you know that notion
    just crossed my mind

  82. “What Nevermind said. And you might also consider turning this into a forum. Which won’t take any more moderation, and it’s easier to access topics. Many of which die prematurely under the present system. Also, use captcha for registration at least.”

    Yes, registered email addies should cut out a lot of sock puppets and spam, and make life easier for mods.
    I think there are a number of free forums available?
    http://proboards.com/ comes to mind (because I’ve used it) but there may well be better ones out there, known by others.

    But what happens to Craig’s posts then? Does he carry on posting here and do reactions/comments go on the forum?

  83. “you might also consider turning this into a forum.”


  84. Yes, a bit facile of me, sorry. I think it should be feasible on a standard (eg Runboard) forum for Craig (and maybe mods) to make it impossible for us plebs to start threads, which would only be started by admin (with the possibility of readers’ requests by on-site messaging facility). Then posting could be opened to the general public. The Portrait of Our Leader would remain, and there could additionally be a set of forum rules as a sticky thread. Threads can be locked by admin if they ramble on too much. Going wildly off-topic would be easier to discourage, I think.
    There may be an issue with servers, however. Probably best not to have a US-hosted board…

  85. Oh – and Our Leader’s book ads, of course.

  86. We could call it a blorum.

    *Gone, before I have to apologise*

  87. “Probably best not to have a US-hosted board…”

    Oh shit … Yes.

  88. One more thing – didn’t occur to me, but I think it’s a bonus. Some of us know each other’s email addresses, but by and large we can’t communicate readily with other posters. A message-board for registered users allows this without revealing email addresses. And puts like minds in touch.

  89. Good point ‘Nevermind’ sock-puppetry in teenage forums has lead to murder, suicide or rape.

  90. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 1:33 pm

    I wouldn’t use any free hosted forums, since this blog is powered by wordpress, the obvious choice is bbpress hosted on the same server as the blog.

  91. A forum with only Craig starting threads seems like a blog to me.

    private messaging might reinforce any club like feel. I really like the openness here.

    But I agree that registration will help the mods

  92. Know what you’re saying, Phil. I’m not really coming at it from “let’s start a forum” though. There are plenty of fora for people with coincident political views. But I’m thinking that this blog already resembles a forum in the number of comments and side-issues – and blatant irrelevancies – it attracts; perhaps it would work better in forum format. As to there being a “club” issue with messaging, well, yes. It’s possible. But I don’t think it would be a huge problem on the main board. Where alliances are also made, but with less discussion.

    Anyhow, it’s Craig’s blog and I’ve said more than enough on the subject.

  93. ‘My money’s on this guy (who claimed to be a Thatch advisor, but isn’t even mentioned in her memoirs) Literally swivel-eyed lunatic. Christopher “Lord” Monckton.’

    If we’re to look at the Lords for the ‘Thatcher aide’ referred to by Tom Watson yesterday this guy looks to be a better bet-


  94. McAlpine apparently lives in Australia now. I wonder how hard that would make it to prosecute him.

  95. doug scorgie

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:08 pm

    Keir Starmer was the man in charge of the Crown Prosecution Service when the police submitted their file against Jimmy Savile in 2009.

    I find it incredible that the potential prosecution of a celebrity figure who had personal contacts with highly placed individuals like Mrs Thatcher; Prince Charles; Tony Blair; Ted Heath and many other members of the establishment, was not overseen by the Director of Public Prosecutions himself or that he was not, at least, informed of the details that the police had provided and the reasons for the CPS not prosecuting.

    Mr Starmer is now to investigate the organisation that he was in charge of at the time.

    I note that he has not yet received his knighthood.

  96. Spot on Doug Scorgie. More than 300 ‘victims’ so far identified. How come that chain of Director Generals and Chairman of the Governors (latterly trustees) at the BBC promoted Savile as a their brand leader for over 40 years when there was so much knowledge of the weirdo. It stinks.

    Qs. Was Savile hinself abused as a child? Did his mother know what he was up to? Probably no answers will be forthcoming. I read here that his great niece was abused by him when she was 12. Nobody took any notice of what she reported. The family members were all on his bandwagon presumably.


  97. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:27 pm


    Commentators at a blog I frequent communicate via email to discuss visitors not privy to the communique, and were effective at remaining unified in their strategy toward suspected or confirmed trolls.

  98. Hi all. I’m not of the view that sockpuppets are much of a problem. Email-based signup could however put casual/occasional posters off, and won’t stop a committed puppet, so that’s worth bearing in mind.

    As for a forum, that’d be in addition to, rather than instead of, the blog (imo) – and moderating them tends to be more work anyway. WordPress is very nice as comments can be seen in the admin interface in a time stream, making moderation quick; however the likes of phpBB, in my view, has a convoluted and click-heavy interface.

    I’ve tended to cast my lot against private messaging, since it encourages an invisible dynamic that works against newcomers, and it could create cliques. I believe others recently said something similar about off-board comms on a thread a week or so ago.

    FWIW I think what we have is ok, except for the blasted spam! ;)

  99. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:33 pm

    BTW; I decided to embrace my status, here.

    “Don’t hide your warts. Decorate them…”

    –Hunter S. Thompson–

  100. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:35 pm

    WordPress, eh Jon?

    There’s a nickname for it at other sites.


  101. Ben Franklin,

    “When the going gets weird the weird turn pro.”

    Right? ;.)

  102. Heh, Ben; I had to look that up! However that phrase really should be FYWP.com, since our software is self-hosted, and as such is completely free to use. It won’t ever suddenly start costing us extra money :)

  103. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:42 pm

    Jon, I was thinking further about the lack of SSL on this site. It occurred to me that since there is no SSL, whenever Craig logs in to post or comment his password is sent unencrypted to the webserver.
    On an open wifi network this means he is broadcasting his password to anyone who cares to listen (using wireshark), and since Craig is always travelling I imagine he uses open wifi a lot.
    Furthermore since as Craig often professes he is not tech savvy he likely uses that password for most if not all his online services.
    This site desperately needs SSL for logins at least.

  104. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:47 pm


    (channeling Clark) He! He!

    The CIA’s dupe has taken Romney down a notch. The Romentum has lost the MoJo.


  105. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:49 pm

    I get carried away sometimes. Someone has to stop me. :)

    “Politics is the Art of controlling your environment”


    First lesson for Virginia Farm Boys.

  106. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:55 pm

    I know some will not be entertained by my sarcasm, but my importance is overestimated.

    I’m retired anyway, so it would have to be just a ‘hobby’.

  107. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 4:57 pm

    Gotta go now. Have to kick my youngest in the arse, and convince him to actually use shoe-leather to find a job. Online applications are completely useless.

  108. Ben Franklin.

    “With the truth so dull and depressing, the only working alternative is wild bursts of madness and filigree.” HST.

  109. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    25 Oct, 2012 - 5:00 pm



    Most of the rabble find dupe comments and ‘slowing to a crawl’ during live blogs the most frustrating.

    It’s not a big problem for the admin. Or they don’t care.

  110. Thanks god the recession is so over, thanks to the Olympics. One whole percent, mark the calendar.

    Some 500 job losses in the pipeline and next years comprehensive spending review promises to axe some more.
    ‘So out of the recession my big fat arse.’ said wicket Ingrid.

  111. I smiled to myself when I heard this item of news on the World Service last night when the sentence was announced on the Goldman Sachs Board member found guilty of insider trading. He was said to have a personal fortune of over $85m.

    Ex-Goldman exec’s 2-year sentence draws scrutiny http://online.wsj.com/article/APfcdcfabcf6794369a2a24c1865d287c8.html

    ‘More than 400 letters written to the judge on Gupta’s behalf included documents signed by Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates and former United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan.’ Enough said.

  112. He had it all by the looks of it. What made him throw the self destruct button?


  113. Ben, for fast-growing threads, I should think things are much quicker now we have paged comments.

    Michael Stephenson, I agree. Clark and I both floated this idea, but didn’t get any enthusiasm; the trick is to persuade the person who’d be footing the bill! I might try again, but in the meantime I use the self-generated certificate, which if you’re comfortable with creating a browser exception, is better than nothing.

  114. @jon Footing what bill? can you be specific, surely this blog is run on a shoestring.

  115. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 5:49 pm

    Jon, you must have missed it when I posted this on another thread, but you can get a free ssl cert from here:
    With Craig’s password so easily snatchable you should probably consider it already compromised, someone could have been logging in and recording the IP’s and email addresses of commenters, which would be a concern to people who use pseudonyms.
    In all likelihood the site hasn’t been compromised I’m not a paranoid nutter, I’m just raising the possibility for securities sake.

  116. Nevermind, for an SSL certificate for extra site security (they can run into hundreds of pounds). Michael, didn’t see that comment; however I always thought free certs wouldn’t be recognised by most browsers and so wouldn’t be worth having. But I will have another look, thanks.

  117. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 5:56 pm

    Jon, I use these certs for my home nginx reverse proxy set-up and I get a nice green https in the url bar in chrome.
    These free certs are only the minimum in verifying the owner of the cert so you don’t get a coloured in green bar or anything, but as far as encrypting your traffic they are as good as the ones that cost hundreds of pounds.

  118. thanks jon

  119. Meanwhile, far away in the land of Ontopic:


    Much more on the TBI site. Including where £2Bn we haven’t got went =


    Well, at least we’re not spending it on *feh* poor people –


  120. UN to investigate civilian deaths from US drone strikes

    Special rapporteur on counter-terror operations condemns Barack Obama’s failure to establish effective monitoring process


    “The unit will also look at “other forms of targeted killing conducted in counter-terrorism operations, in which it is alleged that civilian casualties have been inflicted, and to seek explanations from the states using this technology and the states on whose territory it is used. [It] will begin its work early next year and will be based in Geneva.”

    “Security officials who took part in waterboarding interrogations or secret rendition removals should be made accountable for their actions and justice, Emmerson added.” …

    “I should make it absolutely clear that my mandate does not see to eye to eye with the Obama administration on a range of issues – not least the lack of transparency over the drone programme. But on this issue the president has been clear since he took office that water-boarding is torture that it is contrary to American values and that it would stop.

    “… But Governor Romney has said that he does not believe that waterboarding is torture. He has said that he would allow enhanced interrogation techniques that go beyond those now permitted by the army field manual, and his security advisers have recommended that he rescind the existing restrictions.”

    I wonder 1) will it ever happen
    and 2) will it amount to anything if it does.

  121. So first we have PressTV kicked off the airwaves for some minor breech.

    No we have all the channels from Iran booted off the Stallite network. Freedom of speech and a worthy Nobel prize…man its been a good month.

  122. On Channel 4 news … they’re saying that police were approached 7 times during Savile’s lifetime about his abuses. But they didn’t have enough evidence to take any action.

    [I could never stand the sleazy git. Nor understand how he became a “star”.]

  123. And, I had temporarily forgotten that Romney favours torture. As much as I dislike Obama, we must hope that Romney doesn’t win.

  124. Dreoilin,

    Helluva choice isn’t it? Obama the “dispositional matrix” drone king or “let’s have MORE torture” Romney.

    I despair.

  125. Komodo, Jon, Dreoilin, Michael Stephenson,

    One of the great delights here is that one can post here without any captcha or registration hooked up to email etc. It is important not to raise the barrier for entry for new posters on a topic, such as happened with those from Ecuador.
    Personally I am uneasy with the state of ip-no. and browser info and cookie logging, and would take such a registration wall as a curtailment of my free speech. Should that occur, silencing me, how am I to even let you know my objection? :-(

    I have been continuing to post on-topic in some earlier threads and noticed how the dynamics seem to favour a mad scramble of attention to the most recent post with a free for all with little concern for being off topic, which makes it hard to sustain focus on a discussion. It also places a higher load on the readers and wears them out, and reduces the usefulness of the Archive.
    So, rather than any major upheaval (especially in the present circumstances), I would recommend first consider adjustments to the front page, Recent Posts, Archives and Search layout and functionality, together with some posting guidelines etc.
    This may be sufficient to encourage a more Forum-like usage.

    Another technique employed on some blogs is to have a “free discussion” post made once a week, so anything off-topic is encouraged to go there, or moved there by the moderators.

    On https support – what risk are you trying to protect against?

  126. It’s dreadful, Jives.

    And here’s the tail-end of the piece at the Guardian link I posted above:

    “The Cambodian dictator Pol Pot [he pointed out] used the technique. “Anyone who is in doubt about whether waterboarding is torture should visit Tuol Sleng, the infamous S-21 detention facility operated by the Khymer Rouge in Phnom Penh.

    “Over a period of four years 14,000 people were systematically tortured and killed there. It is now a genocide museum. And right there, in the middle of the central torturing room, is the apparatus used by Pol Pot’s security officials for waterboarding.”

    And Republicans will argue with you that it’s not torture … I don’t know who they think they’re kidding.

    But Romney is on board with the drones too, so I don’t see any option but to hope Obama wins.

  127. Snap,

    Thanks. “I don’t have a horse in this race” or a “dog in this fight”, as they say, so really, as far as the blog is concerned, I’ll just go along with whatever happens.

    I think your recommendations about a link to ‘posting guidelines’ and a once a week “Open post” – for bits and bobs about anything – are good.

  128. Dreoilin,

    Yes,thanks for your post,i completely agree.

    You’d think after the GOP’s poster boy Hitchens underwent waterboarding and,after lasting about 2 seconds,declared it most definitely torture.

    The thing that i can’t understand is this: It’s so obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that US foreign policy is clearly fomenting Islamist terrorism.

    I can only then assume the US wants/needs this scenario.Perpetual nonsensical wars for profit.There can be no other common sense conclusion.

  129. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 8:13 pm

    Snap the main risk in my opinion is the security of Craig’s password.
    It’s a reasonable assumption that Craig signs into his blog using open wifi frequently as he is often travelling.
    Without ssl there is no encryption of the traffic being sent from your web browser to the webserver being vulnerable to anyone who can inspect your packets on the way to the webserver.
    On secured wifi at least the data being sent between your laptop and the wifi hotspot are encrypted.
    But on open wifi all the data you send is readable by everyone around you. An attacker would use packet inspection and read your password in clear text.
    One application for doing this is called wireshark.
    Anyone who had a laptop and sat near craig while he was blogging or accessing the website could easily read his password.
    They could then sign in as him and get everyone who comments here’s IP address, and whatever email address they provide.
    His password could have been compromised years ago and all our IP’s could be recorded and personal identities could be completely exposed to the attacker.
    Given Craig has made enemies in government it isn’t too much of a stretch to assume this has happened.
    Securing the web traffic with an ssl certificate would plug this particular security hole.

  130. Re my previous post>

    ..” declared it most definitely torture” should’ve continued with “theyd’ve wised up.”


  131. Michael Johnson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 8:14 pm

    David Cameron’s retort to Tom Watson that he wasn’t entirely sure which former PM he was referring may have a hidden layer to it.

    Is he saying “take down Heath, and we’ll take down Brown (and Mandelson)”?

    The really big question relates to members of the royal family. Some of them were friendly with Savile not for years, but for decades.

    Lord McAlpine was named as a paedophile abuser by many of those who were abused in children’s homes in Wales.

    Ronald Waterhouse, chair of the North Wales Child Abuse Tribunal, suppressed all reporting of the mountain of evidence against McAlpine. He said that this would encourage paedophiles to come forward without fear of consequences. Which was mighty odd, because he had the power to compel witnesses to attend. McAlpine wasn’t even called.

    If you want Thatcher advisers, look too at Derek Laud. He too was named as an abuser in North Wales cases.

    And he wasn’t just a Thatcher adviser. He is a personal friend of both David Cameron and Samantha Cameron and her family.

    He was also an ‘aide’ to John Major’s re-election campaign.

    And…he’s a pal of Lord McAlpine as well as of Michael Portillo.

    When he was in PR at Ludgate Communications, he was said to be supplying ‘boys for questions’.

    There are so many others who could be mentioned too.

  132. Snap:
    I bow to your evidently greater knowledge of the pros and cons. Certainly addressing the issues mentioned within the present framework would offer a distinct improvement for the user. It would be especially useful to have an index of at least the last couple of months’ topics. A lot of the free-for-all you describe is due to the continuation of old discussions/arguments/fights where the posters have some hope that they are going to be read -typically within the last four or five blog entries at most. Older, and the spambots smell carrion and come to feed. In the absence of captcha, anyway.

    As things stand, if you don’t have a mod’s email and the spamfilter locks you out, you also have no way of letting anyone know (ok, try a different IP: might work, and did in my recent case) There is no publicly available contact on this blog at present. If that can be remedied, great. “Contact”, btw, requires the contactor’s email address to be provided – why not site registration? I don’t see your point on registration, I confess. It’s trivially easy to start an email account if you don’t have one, and it doesn’t have to be in your real name or contain details of your economic status/address/whatever.

    Still, as I say, it’s not my blog,

    Wifi: sshell will put you securely through a wireless network to a secure server in Linux, BSD and maybe OSX. Believe a Windows version is available or under development.


  133. “The thing that i can’t understand is this: It’s so obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that US foreign policy is clearly fomenting Islamist terrorism.” — Jives


    “I can only then assume the US wants/needs this scenario.Perpetual nonsensical wars for profit.There can be no other common sense conclusion.”

    After the Cold War, they had no ‘perpetual enemy’ against whom they could wage perpetual war. They had to create one. [It’s why */** is such a suspicious event, IMO.]

    The arms industry requires perpetual wars for its sustenance.

    And the rich get richer, and the politicos grab more power … the American population is so busy fighting among themselves (Repub v Dems) they don’t notice half of what’s going on. They’re so steeped in that rubbish, I genuinely think that those of us outside the USA can see it all much clearer than they can.

  134. IOW, Jives, I agree. War for profit, plus grabbing anyone else’s resources they can in the process. Wherever they happen to be.

  135. BTW, Twitter can be funny.

    #Romney “This nation is the hope of the earth.” Earth slowly raises gun to temple. #p2 #ows

  136. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 9:05 pm

    Komodo, you expect Craig to use secure shell to post his blogs?

    SSL is the answer and that link I gave Jon will provide him with a certificate that is accepted by web browsers.

  137. Whatever, MS. Whatever works and is useable. Just trying to help….

  138. Making the World a More Dangerous Place

    By John Pilger

    The day before Barack Obama arrived in Canberra last year to declare China the new enemy of the “free world”, Gillard announced the end of her party’s ban on uranium sales.

  139. Sorry, but this also makes terrible reading:

    Israel‘s Formula For A Starvation Diet
    How 400 trucks to feed Gaza became just 67


  140. */** Dreoilin? I think I know to which event you refer, and I wholeheartedly concur. I would also put */* in the same category, although more as an aide memoire than an actual casus belli.

    Empires need enemies, and empires fall. ’twas ever thus.

  141. Dreoilin, Michael Stephenson, Komodo,

    thanks. I’m sure there are many pros and cons and more regarding spam fighting. I primarily wanted to get in a voice to counter the apparent unanimity and the presumption that everyone has the same take on security/privacy/email etc. I’m not pressing for changes now.

    I mostly look at pages like the following and see if the counts change on refresh. Some blogs run a “recent posts” panel or page, etc. which is nice if the volume is low. Can one do a list of recent threads with new posts which would suit the volume here? I’m not certain googlebot finds all these either.


    Any experience with ‘mark as spam’ buttons?

    Michael Stephenson,

    ok so you see the risk as the exposure by access to the web server by a password of the IP addresses and email adresses of posters revealing our personal identities to an attacker namely “enemies in government”.

    I agree with the concern. You seem to be assuming that the web server is secure, Craig’s laptop and the moderators and the administrators computers are secure, backups are secure, you block the statcounter and gravatar embeds, the spamfilter is not sending IP’s or emails in realtime to check against a blacklist, etc. If all that, then yes https would help a bit at a superficial level, until you start looking at the fact that the way certificates work is broken, especially against some state level attacker.

    I also see other risks.

  142. Perpetual war isn’t just a source of wealth. It’s also a source of power.

  143. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 10:15 pm

    Snap: Well basically all your other concerns are that the attacker already has root access to the webserver, which unless you have a compliant host would need a warrant, or hacking to achieve.

    Using ssl for logins is not something you add on for extra security, it’s basic security. It’s completely fundamental.

    The other security issues you allude to are higher level than having ssl to encrypt transmitting a password.

  144. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 10:20 pm

    Incidentally I am posting with my real name and real ip and real email address, so it doesn’t really concern my security. Most others are hiding their identity so this is their concern really, not mine.

  145. Mike,
    Yes, I was talking about 9/11 but I’m not supposed to mention it other than on a special thread here:

    “aide memoire” – hadn’t heard that description before for 7/7 and it’s a good one.

    G’night all

  146. Michael Stephenson,

    would you kindly not talk in such a know it all, put down tone to me. I was trying to stimulate you or readers to think more clearly. I will not engage in such argument.

    Was I not being polite? If it helps, do I correctly summarise above what you see as the risk?

    Of course it is basic security against basic attackers, such as a random in a cafe over open wifi. It is also false-security against sophisticated attackers, such as “ennemies in government” who have no qualms about all manner of attack vectors.

  147. Michael Stephenson

    25 Oct, 2012 - 11:42 pm

    I never talked down to anyone as far as I am aware. Sorry to offend.

    Anyway, because something happens in a wifi hotspot and is a targeted attack doesn’t make it a basic attack. Getting craigs password over wifi is a hell of a lot less sophisticated than breaking into whoever hosts his blog.
    In this case Craig is a low hanging fruit and what I described is a simple way of getting his password. (I am a simple person)

  148. “Perpetual war” – I would tend to agree. Anyone remember George Orwell’s “1984”, where Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia (did I get the last two right?) were in perpetual war with each another…?

  149. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:03 am

    ” such as “ennemies in government” who have no qualms about all manner of attack vectors.”

    “enemas”? (still in my smart-ass mood)

    ” (I am a simple person)” Me too, Michael. Totally not techie, is my real name. I have a ‘smart’ phone but all it’s good for is calling folks.

    As for anonymity, I keep a pseudonym to avoid fame, because fame and fortune delivers a lack of privacy, so I naturally avoid anything which would enrich me in the public sphere. In that sense, I am a wildly successful chap

  150. Michael Stephenson

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:07 am

    I totally do not understand why I am being met by such resistance here.
    Am I under suspicion?

  151. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:10 am

    Almost everyone is Michael. Trust issues are Legion in the World we live in. Don’t be discouraged.

    You are a reasonable person, from what I’ve seen. You have to have a thick skin on the innertubes.

  152. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:13 am

    How do you think Komodo arrived at his nick? Thick skin, and a flesh-eating bacteria bite. That’ll do it.

  153. Michael Stephenson

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:14 am

    I do have a thick skin, but since what I have posted today is just factually true and good advice I don’t see how your reaction is appropriate.

  154. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:19 am

    I didn’t react to your posts, save these last ones :)

    See what I mean? Take it with a grain of salt. Pick your battles. I don’t know if you were on the last thread but I took a lot of shit for advocating non-violent protest. Meh.

  155. A Grim But Realistic Prognosis Of What Lies Ahead For The European Union unless people wake up and smell the coffee (yes that means all well meaning lefties and naive Secret Europhiles who want to see the break up of all sovereign countries too)


  156. Michael Stephenson

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:34 am

    It’s surprising how much shit a guy gets for advocating non violent protest.
    You shouldn’t doubt me other than the fact teenage girls have probably the most predictable passwords the world over.

  157. Michael Stephenson

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:46 am

    I’m fairly sure that last message was taken out of context

  158. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    26 Oct, 2012 - 12:48 am

  159. Ben Franklin: You don’t really think, for a moment, that this is genuine – surely you’re not that daft? I’d taken you to be a reasonably sensible contributor. I’m always prepared to revise my opinions based on new evidence, of course!

    All the same, I’m beginning to think that this insane cultist freak Bishop Romney is going to “win” the election next month. He’s likely to hold it for two terms.

  160. @Ben

    Hhmmmmm …… that “baby” is bigger than Obama is now.

  161. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    26 Oct, 2012 - 1:12 am

    Glenn; Please don’t tempt me to change my avatar descriptor, again, Snark is difficult for me.

    Moroni’s golden plates are not in Romney’s possession, so the Godhead rejects him.

    (translation; it’s bunk)

  162. Apparently, “The US embassy in Moscow has expressed concern over the detention of a Russian opposition activist in Kiev and his transfer to Moscow”.


    Well, sure, that would be a violation of his human rights, right? And The US has never detained anybody without due process? Never transferred those detainees around the world? Never delivered them for torture? Maybe The US embassy would be happier if the Russians simply eliminated the troublesome individual with a drone strike, along with a few innocent bystanders, controlled by a joystick from Moscow.

    The hypocrisy is blinding. And yet this is reported straight up as news.

  163. That’s why Greenwald’s Thomas Jefferson quote is such an important point. You can’t trust Obama to do this just because he’s Obama and you like him. That makes no sense. Once you accept that Obama can have that authority then any US president can. And The US can’t complain if presidents of other countries do the same. Obama has spoken extensively of the process he goes through to approve these killings: the agonizing decisions, the meticulous intelligence, as though that somehow justifies him. Yes, that’s a process but it’s so far from anything recognizable as a “due process” that it’s laughable. It would be comic if it wasn’t so deadly serious. Maybe the Chinese judge agonizes over his decision to sentence 50 people to death in an afternoon’s stadium trial, but that doesn’t mean the process isn’t fundamentally flawed.

  164. Sorry, Ben Franklin – we have yet to benefit from a personal discussion, and I’m constantly appalled by seemingly sane people who maintain base idiocies (eg, providing cover for that secret Islamic, white-hating communist Nazism of that Marxist Kenyan mer’ka despising, Satanic abortion enthusiast in our by-god-damn White house).

  165. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    26 Oct, 2012 - 3:42 am

    S’ok, Glenn…

    It’s hard to distinguish one player from another without a program.

  166. DavidH,

    Excellent post,thank you.

  167. We are used to hearing about killings of nuclear physicists, weapons inpsectors and the like but this is the first of an oil executive that I can remember. Any connection to the recent BP deal with Putin and Roffnest and the TNK-BP
    consortium’s plans for drilling in the Arctic Ocean. BP are now out of the latter.


    ‘Under the proposed deal, BP would end up with $12.3 billion of cash and a nearly 20% stake in Rosneft, while the four tycoons would receive about $28 billion for their 50% stake in TNK-BP.


    Mr. Putin spoke at his official residence during an annual dinner with academics and journalists.
    He said a key factor in the decision to allow the deal to go ahead was the shareholder conflict. “Sometimes they were fighting each other with bare hands,” Mr. Putin said.

    He said he had warned the then-Prime Minister Tony Blair when they signed the joint-venture deal in 2003 that a 50-50 split wouldn’t work because no one would be in overall control. “It went from one conflict to another,” he said.

    In the end, both BP and the oligarchs wanted to sell their stakes, he said. “BP asked us for help repeatedly,” Mr. Putin said. “We tried not to intervene in corporate disputes, but when BP came to me and told me they would like to cooperate with Rosneft, we couldn’t refuse them.” ‘


    I had not realised that Blair’s bloody hands were on that deal too.

  168. Thanks for that, Trang. Normally I do not learn click on spambot website, but this for you.



  169. Christopher Tappin has pleaded guilty to selling batteries to Iran. One of those plea bargains no doubt.

    Even the BBC use inverted commas!

    Briton ‘to admit’ weapons charges –

  170. Pink mist department….f’in’ hell.

  171. According to Today it was a plea bargain and you’re absolutely right, Mary.

    Best friend of the USA playing it straight down the (profit) line :-


    Looks like they’re a good bit cheaper than the ones we’ve been buying from OUR best friend.

    No more Novosti for now…

  172. @Felix @Herbie

    Carrying over from the previous thread…

    Yes, Edward Bernays’s Propaganda. A key text. Everyone should read it.

    One thing that Bernays opened my eyes to was the control of ‘professional’ opinion.

    Medics, local council officials, plumbers, politicians, police officers, schoolteachers, scientists, academics, army officers, carpet salesmen, what have you – they all mainly think what they’re told, and it comes to them through ‘specialised’ channels, through trade journals and other trade literature, conferences, etc. Dressing it up with a bit of lingo works best. Those who bring their opinions to them also have their own opinions controlled at a higher level. At the centre it’s all controlled by big business – and, if you want to make a distinction, also by state propaganda centres, although they too are actually working for big business. And a lot of it works using stock phrases. Whoever understands the facts in this paragraph, understands a lot.

    On the scale of an individual’s ‘development’ during their lifetime, anyone who doesn’t get the role of the school system in zombification, does’t get much. All serious anti-exploitation pro-humanity radicals should be home educators. There are no two ways about this.

    Understanding ‘opinion’ also gives a great handle on say 911, and – a very clear case – global warming, or as it’s now been repackaged, climate change. Spot the stock phrases.

    ‘Science’ has been branded with ‘truth’. A lot of this stuff works with phony associations that people ‘invest’ in. Think conditioned responses. But…for goodness sake…we live in a society…and one whose historical development is characterised as above. It’s a backward society and one full of lies. Anyone who thinks the method of truth was discovered in the 16th century and now expresses itself as the scientific method should, er, think some more about how stuff actually gets done in society and who influences whom and why. Of course the idea that a properly human and properly social society (socialism), is possible, is pretty much a necessity if someone is going to make headway in understanding stuff.

    People only need think of how scientific opinion is controlled, how research priorities are determined, how promotion works, etc. It is a shame that a lot of people who would otherwise have some sense tend to keel over when faced with ‘medical’ or ‘scientific’ opinion-formers telling them what’s what. On climate change, just keep in mind, that there used to be ice fairs on the Thames, and that the climate warmed up so much in the century before industrialisation that they came to an end. If anyone asks, tell them N_ on craigmurray.org.uk told you! :-)

    Two more points.

    First, it is a big mistake to believe that the Nazis controlled everything through force. I am not even sure that in most people’s lives there was quantitatively more force applied in Nazi Germany than in Britain in the same epoch. If there was, then it was only a bit more, and not sufficient to make the social conditions qualitatively very different in this respect. (The use of a concentration camp economy, however, was.) Key fact: Hitler kept a copy of Bernays’s text on his desk.

    Last point, on the control of opinion, aka zombification. Let’s call it what it is: sick. Psychological illness. Wilhelm Reich went some way to putting his finger on it (it’s a ‘plague’ all right), but not far enough – he got distracted by sex! Anyway my last point is…compensation, the desire to hide slavishness of the mind. Cf, ‘I’m not lying to you’, almost always only said by people who are. What I’m referring to is the amazing tendency of many people to come out with all sorts of reasons for why they think something when in fact a) they’re not used to that sort of cogitation, and b) they’re just trying to justify an opinion that has been put into their heads and they’re simply regurgitating. They don’t want to admit they’re so weak, so they come across as strong and thinky. This applies to people who come out with every last bit of detailed garbage to defend the official story regarding 911 or climate change or Princess Diana… And at a much more mundane level in daily life, I remember a hotel desk attendant who refused to give me an extra chair. The real reason was of course that she didn’t know whether she was allowed, and was afraid her boss would tell her off, combined with the sort of petty-bourgeois attitude that customers exploit the businesses they buy stuff from, which so many customer-facing staff are inculcated with nowadays. Anyway she came up with about 5 reasons, quick as a flash. This is what I call the creativity of non-thought, or the creativity of gullibility Watch out for it – it’s everywhere. It’s not real creativity, and arguably not even real thought.

  173. I love these spambots that suddenly appear. Trang Tin etc etc reminded me of

    I never found the Goons ‘hilariously funny’ as it says in the blurb btw.
    P Charles did though.

  174. It was of its time, Mary. Almost anything was funny after WW2. And it was a damn sight funnier than Educating Archie. Ventriloquist. On radio. Yeah.

  175. @Mary – did you see my comment here? I’d be very interested to hear your view on the hypothesis I presented there. I’m just thinking you may have missed the post, because like a lot of my posts, it got moderated, and then when it appeared, it appeared a few rungs up from the bottom because of the time-stamp. (Currently got a ‘Bernays’ post in the pipeline too.)

    @Mods – is it possible to have a ‘preview posts’ function? It would be a help to those of us who sometimes mess up our tags, and could also save you some work, because I’ve noticed that sometimes when I’ve got my tags in a twist, a mod has been kind enough to correct them! :-)

  176. I found this thought-provoking:


    Normally I see the words “Texas” and “Faith” together and head for a bomb shelter. Not so here.

  177. N_Off out for the day so will reply properly later. This is what we tried to change unsuccessfully in 2007.


    I agree that an edit facility here would be useful. Mainly to correct my many recent typos.

    I hear that La Clinton does not like ‘whining’ esp from career women like Anne- Marie Slaughter. I assume she tolerates the whining from the women and children killed and maimed by her drones.


  178. WARNING, WARNING! Temporary outbreak of common sense in UK foreign policy.


    I can only assume the man who would invade embassies has taken an autumn holiday – long may it continue!

  179. Jim Manly of the Estelle is back home in Vancouver. A former Canadian politician of integrity. Also a vicar.

    “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord,” the former Member of Parliament bellowed at Vancouver International Airport Thursday to a crowd of supporters, re-enacting his defiant words to the Israeli navy as it boarded Manly’s Gaza-bound ship, the Estelle.

    The Lord’s words were correct!


  180. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran … Has the MoD blocked use of Diego Garcia as well?

  181. Good question, Tony. It hasn’t actually blocked anything yet. And the article is unclear about whether the US is lobbying to use US bases in the UK and on British territory abroad (Diego Garcia) or UK ones. What our government appears to be doing is making the right noises, while a nod and a wink will be provided when the time comes.

    Iran may well take some action against the UK in the event of the US getting jiggy on Israel’s behalf, and that will then justify us joining in without breaching international law.

    And if Iran shows no inclination to fall into that sucker trap, then I am sure the combined resources of the US, UK and our peaceful democratic friends in the non-apartheid state whose name we never mention, can make it look as if it did.

  182. We bought Diego Garcia for £3M. We rented it to the Yanks in exchange for a £14M discount on Polaris. Result, eh?

  183. It’s actually started. Wonder if GCHQ is getting a lot of US requests, too?


  184. ‘We are used to hearing about killings of nuclear physicists, weapons inpsectors and the like but this is the first of an oil executive that I can remember. ‘

    Brussels is a good place to carry out a spook related murder & get away with it- possibly even better than London (cf Gareth Williams). No one was ever bought to book for the murder of Gerald ‘Supergun’ Bull at his Brussels flat in March 1990.

  185. @ Mary at 8.34 : the murdered oil executive workzed for Exxon it seems, and not BP

  186. re. OldMark at 1.14pm : true, nobody was brought to book for Bull’s murder, but then the Belgian police is not necessarily the most efficient – the “Brabant killers” of the 1980s have still not been identified either for that matter. And, more mundanely, only a (very) small percentage of burglars and muggers are apprehended in the UK and elsewhere…

  187. @TonyF12 at 11:03

    According to the Indy, Ascension, Diego Garcia and the Cyprus bases are included.

  188. ‘true, nobody was brought to book for Bull’s murder, but then the Belgian police is not necessarily the most efficient’.


    Whether such failures are the result of inefficiency or a studied refusal to dig too deep is a moot point, as this (well referenced, by Wikipedia standards) link shows-


  189. Cyprus….but Assad hasn’t been degraded NEARLY enough for that to be a safe option. And safety (see drones) is all.

  190. July – December 2011 the UK made 49 requests to Google to have content censored/removed.

    Brazil (194 requests) were the worst offenders, with the USA in second place (187).

    See the article and inforgraphic here


    (My own country isn’t listed, so I can’t comment on it)

  191. And, a large car bomb exploded on Friday near a children’s playground in southern Damascus and initial reports indicated a large number of casualties.

    Where’s this supposed ceasefire?

  192. *infographic, above, not ‘inforgraphic’

    sheesh …

    BTW, Michael Stephenson
    25 Oct, 2012 – 10:20 pm

    You sound a wee bit self righteous with your “my real name and real ip and real email address” and “most others are hiding their identity”. (And there was me thinking you were concerned for our security/privacy …)

    I’m posting with my default email address and real IP address, and I’m withholding my real name, as I found when I Googled it a few years ago that it’s already all over the internet from previous activities (blogging on group blogs, etc.)

    Given that, unlike Governments who put pressure on Google, it’s pretty much impossible for us to get our names or our details deleted from search results, I see no reason to add to what’s out there already. And I believe my bona fides is established here.

  193. I did know that Hitman. I was just saying that there are many big players in the oil game. It is being said that the murder has something to do with the Iran sanctions but we will never know as in so many other cases of extra judicial killing which is not as it being portrayed in the visual media. Killed for money and the car???

  194. Certainly not killed for money and the car! Carjackers usually close in outside the target’s home. Actually, I think I was doing the Belgian police an injustice when I said they weren’t necessarily very effective: with the best will in the world, what do they have to go on? Two men, one of whom might have been holding a motorcycle helmet. The population of greater Brussels is around 1,4 million, that of Belgium around 10 million, that of open-border Europe….. and even if there is a vague description, unless the guys had highly unusual physical characteristics they would look like hundreds of thousands of others.
    As I said earlier, how many burglars or muggers are caught in the UK and elsewhere unless there just happens to be a policeman on the spot?

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