Labour Flunks, BBC Spins

by craig on May 23, 2014 9:41 am in Uncategorized

The Labour Party has tanked in the English council elections, at a stage in the electoral cycle where every experienced person knows an opposition party would be expecting to pick up a minimum of 800 English council seat net gains. On today’s figures, they are nowhere near achieving an overall majority at Westminster, even ignoring the massive negative momentum against them. Labour have a swing of -8% against them compared to the 2012 local council elections.

Labour played the game of negative expectations in a massive way, claiming a net gain of 150 seats would be a victory for them. So far they have a net gain of just 82. But the extraordinary thing is that the BBC have, throughout the Breakfast News period – the largest TV news watch of the day – been unable to add up all the council seats yet. Sky has totaled every single one of the council seats declared overnight, while the BBC has been able to total under half – and the BBC has come up with a Labour net gain of 102. This has enabled the BBC to show a three figure Labour gain on its strapline all morning, and lead every news bulletin: “Major gains for UKIP in English local elections. Labour has also made gains. A poor night for the Conservatives and Lib Dems”.

That the BBC, which has more regional reporting staff than Sky by a factor of 30, is unable to tally the seats of all the councils declared so far, while Sky had done it all night very efficiently, is remarkable. And when Labour has made net gains of only 82 overall in the overnight declarations, to get a Labour net gain of 102 out of just over a third of the declared seats is virtually impossible for the BBC to achieve except by deliberate action. The BBC have cherry picked the very few areas where Labour has moved forward and ignored areas where they suffered losses. Precisely what one would expect from the BBC.

The fact that Labour cannot form the next government shows the people of Scotland they have a very simple choice. Tory rule or Independence. What the UKIP surge shows is that nasty xenophobia is rampant in England. The Tory party will move even further to the right to capture some of this ground – and so will New Labour. We could well see a Con/UKIP Westminster coalition after 2015.

So if you are Scottish, these are your only certain choices for the future:

Independence or Tory Rule
Independence or Leave the EU

It is as simple as that. The BBC will nevertheless try to hype the remotely vanishing possibility of a New Labour government instead, to appeal to tribal loyalty. Though why anyone would want New Labour who kick-started tuition fees, NHS privatization, academy schools and are obsessed with nuclear weapons, is beyond me. There is no choice open of a social democratic UK.

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96 Comments

  1. Good analysis.

    Writing off all those who voted UKIP as xenophobes seems a step too far for me. Some certainly are, but there are plenty of xenophobes in the Conservative and for that matter Labour parties. Name-calling of UKIP did not serve the Conservatives, LibDems and Labour. The daily onslaught of stories about UKIP eating hamsters did not work for the established parties last night, nor will commentaries labeling them universally as xenophobes.

    My impression from here in the London area is that voting UKIP yesterday was seen as a perfect opportunity to tell Westminster that their cosy assumptions of unqualified support were unfounded whatever the Maria Millers got up to, or whatever blind support Westminster nods through from Brussels or Washington in respect of Ukraine, Libya, Syria or the Bedroom Tax. The bigger question has to be whether UKIP can consolidate their appeal in the General Election. It will all depend on how many insults UKIP supporters will put up with, and my impression is that they are enjoying the insults because they see them for what they are.

    The last time the UK media were totally united in a cause – whether The Sun, The Telegraph, Hello or the Beano – was the run-up to the Iraq War. It worked then, but it did not work yesterday. Instead it poured petrol on the flames.

  2. TonyF12

    I live in Ramsgate, one of their strongest areas and the seat which Farage is targeting to stand. I see them very close up. Xenophobia is beyond doubt their most striking characteristic.

  3. I’m a Londoner soon to be working at the Commonwealth Games. I hope not to return. I really hope the Scots vote ‘yes’.

  4. Well, that’s the B.B.C. for you!

    I don’t quite get this xenophobic England tripe though.

    Firstly, Britain in general and England in particular has a very high level of immigration despite having a small land area (the whole British Isles including the Irish Republic is just under half the size of Texas) and a very high population density.

    Secondly, separatism in a British context is petty and parochial. There is a contradiction somewhere in suggesting that Unionism is somehow associated with xenophobia while separatism is supposed to be compatible with progression to some high-minded, liberal and inclusive Utopia.

    It is also a little bit rich if I may say so, for people whose positions are reasonably secure to continue to launch into the knee-jerk reaction of attributing the lowest motivations to those who are prepared to vote U.K.I.P.

    Thirdly, there are plenty of people who are dissatisfied with what Britain has become. The answer is to reform Britain, not trash it.

    Fourthly, in practical terms there can be no real separatism. We are all living under the severe geographical constraint mentioned above. All we are going to achieve through the mis-named “Independence” is create even more useless, parasitic politicians to drain the taxes of people who work and produce.

    It would be more sensitive (and sensible) to consider this:

    There is a constituency in this country for whom even the so-called “good times” were never that wonderful. In those days they did real, hard work in factories and mines for the kind of wages that their contemporary critics wouldn’t get out of bed for. Now most of the decent jobs are gone, the education system they could once have relied upon to lift their expectations has been deliberately trashed, they have to compete with recent immigrants for the few jobs which remain and for low wages, they have seen their communities transformed and, if they raise complaint, have to suffer insults from the mouths of those few at the top of the pyramid who benefit from their misfortune.

    The surprise isn’t that they don’t like it, the surprise is that the perpetrators of this crime aren’t hanging from the lamp-posts.

    Far from Craig’s description of England as ‘xenophobic’, the stoicism and tolerance of the British working classes amazes me.

  5. On the Today programme, the BBC were making a big deal about Ukip not doing so well in London – something, it was suggested, that was associated with the voters there being younger and more intelligent (didn’t stop them voting for Boris though did it?).

    As you say Craig, this can only help the Scotish independence vote. As a Green voter from Sussex, I think that this can only be a good thing.

  6. I do know what you mean, Craig. In our village all the xenophobes have been squawking about UKIP being the answer to their dreams. In their case all it means is a switch from BNP to UKIP, and yesterday’s figures represent swings greater than those from BNP to UKIP.

    I still contend that the bulk of the new support for UKIP came from those who feel disenfranchised because of Westminster’s detachment from their needs and feelings. Issues like HS2 and Heathrow extension are not being handled democratically around here in any sense. Someone in Westminster nods these schemes though and we are not even informed fully let alone consulted or considered. When it comes to the big decisions Westminster is driven by Brussels or Washington, and we pick up the bill and bury the dead, while the MPs worry about second homes and their pension funds. Mistakenly quite possibly, UKIP looks different without being barking mad. Yesterday was a vote to knee the status quo in the groin, which it achieved.

    The established parties need to learn two things – to listen, not hector – to do their jobs and define the differences between them. Being afraid of the unknown in UKIP is fair enough. The ‘known’ is that we have had recent governments doing very bad things in foreign policy, and UKIP has yet to define its ideas. Maybe it has nothing new to say, but we can judge that when we hear it.

  7. “Far from Craig’s description of England as ‘xenophobic’, the stoicism and tolerance of the British working classes amazes me.”

    Typical middle class socialist who almost never actually socializes with working class people. Try talking to people in a Ramsgate pub, then come back and tell me how amazed you are by their tolerance.

  8. “What the UKIP surge shows is that nasty xenophobia is rampant in England.”

    LOL. You never miss a chance, do you Craig? I can’t recall you putting up an argument for why it is in Britain’s interests to remain in the EU – and to give Farage his due he has been arguing why it is not for years and particularly tirelessly so in the past few months.

    No, instead you just shriek “horrid, horrid, waycists” and hope they will go away. You’re a bit like the BBC in that regard!

  9. “It will all depend on how many insults UKIP supporters will put up with, and my impression is that they are enjoying the insults because they see them for what they are.”

    Yup. Pay attention Craig!

    :-)

  10. I’m not sure I’d be completely happy with extrapolating from a Ramsgate boozer to the rest of England (for a reasons of geography and economy they’re at a sharper end than most when it comes to Ukips special brand of xenophobia), but even here in Hove I’ve seen and heard enough of their xenophobic claptrap from their purported voters to know it’s a major part of their appeal.

  11. Are the working classes not to your taste,Craig?

  12. A labour/libdem coalition looks the most likely Government from these results.

  13. They are people. All people are to my taste. I just don’t romanticise them.

  14. The BBC have cherry picked the very few areas where Labour has moved forward and ignored areas where they suffered losses. Precisely what one would expect from the BBC.

    The BBC have pushed UKIP and Farage heavily on programmes like Question Time. The aim is to split the Tory vote and let Labour back in at the next General Election.

    Unfortunately for the BBC it appears that UKIP are also eating into the Labour vote.

  15. Ba'al Zevul (Gissajob)

    23 May, 2014 - 11:18 am

    “Typical middle class socialist who almost never actually socializes with working class people. Try talking to people in a Ramsgate pub, then come back and tell me how amazed you are by their tolerance.”

    I tried that.

    Me: Hello, working-class chappie.
    WCC: Oright.
    Me: What are your views on xenophobia?
    Wcc: You what?
    Me: I mean, how do you feel about immigration?
    WCC: Is fine, mate, just don’t let bloody Litvaks into Szczecin.
    Me: Sorry?
    WCC; I live Szczecin. You want new bathroom? I fix.

  16. “The BBC have pushed UKIP and Farage heavily on programmes like Question Time.”

    They get a kipper on the panel and every panellist and the bussed in Labour audience gang up on them. You can tell that UKIP have a point about the main three because they put aside their miniscule differences for an hour and join up to give the kipper a good kicking amid rapturous applause from the audience. I wouldn’t call it promoting UKIP if that’s what you meant.

    The BBC was hoping the continual cries of waycism from the Labour and Lib Dem plants in the audience would stick but they haven’t.

  17. “Try talking to people in a Ramsgate pub, then come back and tell me how amazed you are by their tolerance.”

    The support for UKIP does not show the English working class are xenphobic.

    I sometimes go to wine bars and talk to the middle classes where I hear far more small minded bigotry than I do in working class pubs.

    You are a bigot yourself to sneer at the English working class as if they are worse than the Scottish working class or the middle classes.

    Most working class communities are integrated with the minorities you only see when you pay them for doing your cleaning. It is not a matter of choice. That’s how it is. Sure the BBC will find one or two to say something racist to help you sneer so. Sure people are unclear who the enemy is and do worry about immigration when they cannot get a job. You should talk to many of my neighbours, in their 40s/50s and most likely never going to get a job again. They get angry, disillusioned and say stupid shit to self-righteous, politically correct, middle class wankers. Hey I’m sure these types were even in the Ramsgate pub you visited.

  18. BBC covered up paedophile scandal. and Hillsborough. whenever innocent people/children are hurt BBC covers it up including Palestinians, we need a referendum on whether we should continue to fund the bastard BBC paedophiles.

    Ignorance is Knowledge

  19. Norwich will not start counting until lunchtime and most of the results, so handy to have all weekend for machinating,won’t be available until tommorrow.

    next year will be interersting indeed, with Lib dems fighting for their existence, too busy to make coalition plans as they might not be able to honour them, be replaced by UKIP. So, what of a UKIP Tory coalition next year?

    That prospect alone should encourage all in Scotland to vote for Independence.

  20. this is the current betting on the result of Scottish independence vote.

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome

  21. Phil

    I have spent a very great deal of my life with both the Scottish and the English working classes. The English working classes are, on the whole, much more xenophobic and have a much narrower knowledge of the world. Like all generalisations, many exceptions.

    Nobody ever called me politically correct before. And I don’t ever lecture people about their politics in pubs. I can however listen and observe.

    “Most working class communities are integrated with the minorities you only see when you pay them from doing your cleaning”. You have a completely false view of both my background and my income. And an even more false view of working class communities.

    In Blackburn there are state schools which are 97% Asian and schools which are 97% white within three hundred yards of each other. Working class communities integrated? You are an extremely ignorant man. Your idea of multi-cultural harmony among the very working class communities of Margate and Ramsgate with the large ethnic minority community here is cloud cuckoo land. UKIP will get about 50% of votes here in Thanet. From those working classes. It is a direct expression of dislike of foreigners. The fact that doesn’t fit with the theoretical class solidarity model of an intellectual fuckwit like Phil is unfortunate.

    So if the English working class are so racially tolerant, who are all these UKIP voters, Phil? All upper class? In Hull. Yarmouth and Rotherham? You are so ideologically blinkered your brain has atrophied.

  22. Like Farage with the immigration figures Anon is full of shit. When I challenged him yesterday over the racist labelling of blacks as ‘niggers’ and ‘nig nogs’ by his leader, and to find where he could justify his comment that I was a racist, he shut up shop.

  23. Daniel,

    So get yourself on the electoral roll as soon as you have an address.

  24. The BBC and the rest of our MSM have conducted a skillful campaign to portray UKIP as plucky victims of bullying. If the MSM reallydidn’t want UKIP to be successful, they would ignore them.

    It would be interesting to know the airtime Farage has had in the last 2 months in comparison to the other party leaders.

  25. “I have spent a very great deal of my life with both the Scottish and the English working classes. The English working classes are, on the whole, much more xenophobic and have a much narrower knowledge of the world. Like all generalisations, many exceptions.”

    Not my experience. I’ve seen a great deal of tolerance from the English working classes towards immigrants. There comes a point, though, when whole swathes of our towns and cities no longer resemble England, when jobs, houses, school places and health services are all in short supply, that enough is enough, but it should always be the politicians who are held accountable – not the immigrants themselves – and thankfully this is what I see happening.

    “UKIP will get about 50% of votes here in Thanet. From those working classes. It is a direct expression of dislike of foreigners.”

    Really? Nothing to do with the mass influx of immigrants over which they were never consulted? How long are fuckwits* like you going to take to realise that oposition to mass-immigration is not “racist”?

    *Only kidding, sort of.

  26. John,

    You’ve made a few fruity comments about the Joos for which you have been pulled up on more than one occasion, so let’s leave it there.

    Re Farage using the N word. It was alleged he said it in a pub by one man who has a vendetta against UKIP. There is no evidence he ever did, which is why not even the BBC bothers with that particular slur.

  27. “The BBC and the rest of our MSM have conducted a skillful campaign to portray UKIP as plucky victims of bullying.”

    Do you really, honestly , believe this Node?

  28. Anon

    Opposition to immigration is racist. The best news for ages was the net immigration of 250,000 odd in the last twelve months. We need a lot more workers to pay the future pensions of our ageing populations.

  29. Don’t you think immigrants have dependants of their own?and that they have already brought them or will bring them?.The immigration figures I believe are based only on those who have obtained N.I. nos,so presumably exclude dependants.
    There may be short term economic benefits from mass immigration,especially for the middle class,in the long run it’s likely to be very expensive.

  30. Ba'al Zevul (In Haste)

    23 May, 2014 - 12:30 pm

    We need a lot more cheapworkers to pay the future pensions of international hedge fund managers

    FIFY.

    Sorry, but you’re supporting the international marketisation of labour; its treatment as a commodity, subject to the ‘pile it high and sell it cheap’ Woolworth ethic. The challenge should be to train the guys who are here already to do work which earns money – and I do not mean bankers. There’s a huge pool of unemployed and marginally employed without importing even cheaper labour to ensure they remain unemployed. The fact is that immigration – even as Cameron desperately searches for ways to reduce it enough to get UKIP off his back – primarily benefits employers in search of robots. Robots ignorant of the idea of a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay. Pensions? I think that’s naive. Pension funds mostly rely on the bubble economy, not on productive labour, to fund themselves. I don’t think the pensions argument has any traction at all when you look at it. Though it might, in a saner world.

  31. lucythediclonius

    23 May, 2014 - 12:33 pm

    139 seats at present well on course for the 150

  32. Anon 23 May, 2014 – 11:57 am

    ““The BBC and the rest of our MSM have conducted a skillful campaign to portray UKIP as plucky victims of bullying.”

    Do you really, honestly , believe this Node?”

    Are our MSM capable of falsely portraying people as plucky victims of bullying?
    Yes, eg Israel.

    Are our MSM capable of denying publicity to a cause?
    Yes, eg the genocide of Palestinians.

    Are our MSM capable of maintaining selective promotion of causes indefinitely?
    Yes, eg Israel and Palestine.

    Is such selective promotion effective?
    Provably.

    Have our MSM denied publicity to UKIP?
    No.

    Has MSM exposure of UKIP by the MSM enhanced or reduced their support?
    Enhanced.

    Do I honestly believe that our MSM have conducted a skillful campaign to portray UKIP as plucky victims of bullying?
    Yes

  33. I think UKIP gains show turkeys will vote for Christmas. Farage is Trojan Horse.

    D

  34. “Opposition to immigration is racist. The best news for ages was the net immigration of 250,000 odd in the last twelve months. We need a lot more workers to pay the future pensions of our ageing populations.”

    Craig, I’m afraid importing hundreds of thousands of poor people and their children isn’t going to pay anyone’s pension. This argument, and the racist smears on Farage, are merely a smokescreen for the main parties, whose real agenda is to a) do the bidding of big business to secure plentiful cheap labour (which presumably goes against your socialist principles of a living wage) and b) do the bidding of the EU who want to neuter the UK as a political entity (see also the Scottish referendum).

  35. Correct. BBC Website home page. Top item.

    Farage: UKIP now ‘serious players’ UKIP will choose target areas and “throw the kitchen sink at them”.
    UKIP’s support surges, with Labour also making gains as Tories and Lib Dem lose seats in the English local elections, with most results still to come.

    12.54am

  36. If any party promises to build a million Y-cubes (both single size for singles and double size for families) throughout over the UK and so break the problem of unaffordable housing (especially in London where the problem’s worst), if they’re the only mainstream party promising this, I will vote for them.

  37. “All people are to my taste. I just don’t romanticise them.”

    Ah come on, you do romanticise the Scots by at least a (generous) dram ;) I think Scotland probably has about the same potential for xenophobia as any other country. What matters is how much it is encouraged and normalised by the media and local culture over recent history. At this point in time, racism is much less widespread in Scotland, because it hasn’t been whipped up into a storm by the media. This is to Scotland’s credit. However, should a political party start to play that card, I’m sure there would be plenty of xenophobes who would come out of the woodwork, or start saying things in pubs which they may otherwise have kept to themselves. It was the Tories in England who first began to use the immigration “narrative” to fight Labour, and now that narrative is running away from them in a very ugly direction.

    I’m not convinced the solution for Scotland is to become independent. Most pictures of an independent Scotland I have seen have been very idealistic. I support the ideals: greater fairness, greater participation in democracy, less control by Westminster dominated by financial interests. However, what matters is whether these ideals can be achieved by an independent Scotland, **subject to the political and economic forces operating today**. It’s all very well dangling this vision as a carrot for voters, much like political parties do before a general election, but once you get into power you find much more powerful interests at work. Could Scotland stand up to tax avoidance by global corporations, who would threaten to leave? Would an independent Scotland investigate RBS for fraud and actual put anyone guilty of a crime in jail? Ultimately where would the corporation tax rate end up if Scotland, Ireland, and the UK are all trying to undercut each other?

    I believe the biggest challenge facing the population is to try and change the economic system to remove the private, profit-seeking corporation as the main structure of business. I think this will require coordinated global action. Scottish independence is seen by some as one step along this road, but I worry that in the longer term, it will only weaken by division the forces which might be able to achieve this.

  38. So funny. Can you picture the coalition?

    The Guardian’s take -

    Tory MPs call for Ukip pact after local election losses
    David Cameron under pressure as MPs fear being ousted in 2015 after strong showing for Nigel Farage’s party

    Rowena Mason, political correspondent
    Friday 23 May 2014 06.55

  39. Anti-immigration is “Racism” – YES.

    Do non-White immigrants are burden on British economy? – NOPE.

    Just look at UK’s Secretary for Culture, media and sports Sajid Javid. His father from Pakistan was a bus driver in London in the 1960s. The son became millionaire by hiring both Whites and non-Whites in business and banking institutions.

    Javid, a non-practing Muslim, has several “political right” characteristics. He said that he loves Israel so much that he calls is “second home”.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/04/16/sajid-javid-uks-pro-israel-asian-minister/

  40. “John,

    You’ve made a few fruity comments about the Joos for which you have been pulled up on more than one occasion, so let’s leave it there.”

    Couldn’t find anything then? Typical, just like Farage babbling on and on until he comes to realise his babble is not true.

  41. Anon

    “Re Farage using the N word. It was alleged he said it in a pub by one man who has a vendetta against UKIP. There is no evidence he ever did, which is why not even the BBC bothers with that particular slur.”

    It was not just one man. The man who made the remark was a professor and founder of UKIP. Farage threatened him with lawyers but withdrew. This is almost certainly because there was more than one person present when Farage called blacks niggers and nig nogs. You cannot trust Farage. If he has no figures he makes them up, like you calling me a racist. Where is the inundation of Romanians stealing from us. The trouble is Anon when people make false statements people still believe them hence the big racist vote for Farage since immigration is the only golf-club in his bag. But I do not want people to think I am racist. Others on this blog have tried to do that before. So I challenge you, as I did yesterday, to give me examples of my racism against Jews. Or withdraw your comment.

  42. Still ‘counting’ in Blackburn with Darwen! ;)

    Only 5 UKippers were standing I see.

    http://www.blackburn.gov.uk/Pages/Local-election-results-2014.aspx

    Note there are boxes for the number of spoilt votes.

  43. John Goss

    “So I challenge you, as I did yesterday, to give me examples of my racism against Jews. Or withdraw your comment.”

    “Not all Jewish people are bad and I know there is a Jewish man helping children get to school by his presence I saw on one video. Unfortunately he is in a minority.

  44. I see the UKIP vote as a protest vote. Who else was anti-europe ?
    The other parties with perhaps the exception of the Greens are in cahoots.
    Anti – immigration = Racism. I don’t think that adds up either.
    The NHS which is in the process of being destroyed can’t keep up with all of the different nationalities.Basic care has become difficult because of the different languages that need to be spoken so’s patients understand their rights, their treatment and what stands in the all of the brochures that are printed for their benefit.We’ve gone from an Island to a melting pot in one generation and its not over.Local authorities have similar problems.
    There is a lack of housing and amenities for these immigrants. Jobs for both the immigrants and the locals… but we all know that immigrants do undercut the local business’s.The free for all that Labour brought in to bolster their voters was not correct.
    You have an over simplified view of the problem Craig and obviously drink in the wrong pubs.
    I remember Dundee was no different early 80′s except it was enough to be a Fifer to get your head kicked in.Avoid drinking in those places.

  45. Agent Cameron should try enlarging his vocabulary. It’s either ‘hard working people’ or ‘we must work harder’ as per just now.

    David Cameron: ‘We’ve got to work harder’ 13 minutes ago

    David Cameron says the Conservative party “has got to work harder” following substantial losses in the local elections.

    Results show the Tories have conceded 118 seats so far, while Nigel Farage’s UKIP has made large gains.

    Some Conservative backbenchers have called for an electoral pact with UKIP going into the general election, but the Prime Minister has ruled that out.

    He said: “We don’t do pacts and deals. We are fighting all out for an all-out win at the next election.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27541170

    Video

  46. Node 12:37pm

    Not quite sure why you’re going off on one about Israel/Palestine but it’s to be expected.

    Back to the matter, given that in unison they’ve spent the last two months relentlessly smearing him and his party, to suggest the BBC and MSM are giving Farage lots of airtime because they secretly support him is the most laughable thing I’ve heard in ages. Thanks for the laugh!

  47. Craig

    “Opposition to immigration is racist.”

    Thanks for another belly laugh. I feel my time here has not been wasted getting that out of you.

  48. What is in the water today? So many disagreeable people putting the boot in on Craig, or trying to. Push off.

  49. Well, it’s looking like Millipede is in trouble. I’ve said for about 2 years now, he’ll never be PM. Whatever his personal qualities, he isn’t the annointed one. His neocon Nu Lab colleagues – both ‘left’ and ‘right’ – will likely shaft him. I give him till November.

    If true, this doesn’t speak much for my political nous. Party politics bores me beyond measure. It’s just obvious to me, and many, that the Labour Party doesn’t exist anymore. I’d blame Blair, but it probably started much earlier. Before I was born, likely. Ed Milliband will be replaced by a stooge, my guess is Yvette Cooper, not because he’s useless, but because he isn’t a Blair-ite.

    This is why UKIP have done ok. It’s not bbc-style ‘apathy’ or ‘cynicism’, it’s a perfectly logical and rational assesment of the corruption in UK politics. Call it a protest vote if you will, but I think it’s much more serious than that. People aren’t dumb, they see the corruption, because it’s so obvious. And, given that UK left parties are essentially illegal – they are infiltrated, spied upon, and treated like the IRA – what other choice does the electorate have?

    Farrage is likely an Oxbridge spook, of course. Most of them are.

  50. Anon 23 May, 2014 – 2:03 pm

    “Not quite sure why you’re going off on one about Israel/Palestine but it’s to be expected.”

    Because I couldn’t think of a better example to demonstrate that our MSM has the ability to portray black as white if it chooses. Or to ignore a subject if it chooses.

    Now you tell me:
    Do you accept that UKIP has had far more media exposure this last 2 months than at any previous time in it’s history?
    If so, do you believe this exposure has harmed or hindered it?

  51. Brendan

    “Farrage is likely an Oxbridge spook, of course. Most of them are.”

    Aside from the fact that he didn’t even attend university could you not at least spell his name correctly?

  52. Node

    “Now you tell me: Do you accept that UKIP has had far more media exposure this last 2 months than at any previous time in it’s history? If so, do you believe this exposure has harmed or hindered it?”

    I’ll give you one thing, Node, you have a knack for framing questions in a way that can only give you the desired outcome.

    UKIP has had a lot of media exposure in the run up to a European election in which they were and are predicted to do well and the intention was most certainly to hinder it. It backfired. Understood? If you think that months of BBC/MSM smearing of UKIP and the desperation to avoid actually discussing the issues it stands for was really some sort of covert exercise to win UKIP votes then you really do need your head examining.

  53. Just deleted a comment by ESLO as it was simply untrue.

  54. Ref ISRAEL, or the aftermath of its attack on Gaza to be precise.

    Where Should the Birds Fly?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L932X90RUXY

    This film has a showing at ULU London next Tuesday.

    University of London Union – ULU
    Malet Street, WC1E 7HY London, United Kingdom.

    Followed by Q&A and London Palestine Action’s regular action planning and organising meeting.

    http://whereshouldthebirdsfly.org/

    Join Palestinian film-maker Fida Qishta for a showing of her film about the Gaza war of 2009 and young survivor Mona Samouni who lost 48 members of her family including her parents in the invasion.

    Operation Cast Lead was the most violent Israeli attack on Palestinian territory since 1967. 1400 people lost their lives, including over 300 children. Over 5000 people were injured and 11,000 homes damaged or destroyed.

    Fida is from Gaza and has worked with the International Solidarity Movement, filming Israeli attacks on her neighbourhood in Rafah and surrounding areas for over a decade.

    The screening will be followed by Q&A with Fida and then, for those that wish to stay,
    London Palestine Action’s regular action planning and organising meeting. Join us to help plan creative and effective Palestine solidarity actions.
    https://www.facebook.com/events/1403937706556281

    The JNF will put in an appearance no doubt.

  55. technicolour

    23 May, 2014 - 3:15 pm

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/58414/nigel-farage-branded-racist-and-fascist-his-teachers

    “The letter says that at a meeting to discuss the school’s new prefects one teacher described Farage as “a fascist”. Deakin noted that there was “considerable reaction” to Farage’s proposed prefecture from a number of teachers who thought the boy was “racist” and “fascist” or “neo-fascist”.

    The letter says: “Another colleague, who teaches the boy, described his publicly professed racist and neo-fascist views; and he cited a particular incident in which Farage was so offensive to a boy in his set, that he had to be removed from the lesson. This master stated his view that this behaviour was precisely why the boy should not be made a prefect”.

    The letter also said that while he was at cadet camp, Farage and a number of other cadets had marched through a quiet Sussex village late at night singing Hitler-youth songs.”

  56. Anon 23 May, 2014 – 2:46 pm

    “I’ll give you one thing, Node, you have a knack for framing questions in a way that can only give you the desired outcome.”

    Ah, then that’ll be why you answered your own questions instead of mine. I’ll take the liberty of extracting the answers to my questions from what you did say. Please correct me if I am wrong. I conclude:
    You do accept that UKIP has had far more media exposure this last 2 months than at any previous time in it’s history and that it has benefited from this exposure.

    Another question. How likely is it that you noticed the strategy was backfiring but the BBC analysts didn’t?

  57. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2014 - 4:01 pm

    Nevermind
    23 May, 2014 – 11:23 am

    “So, what of a UKIP Tory coalition next year?”
    “That prospect alone should encourage all in Scotland to vote for Independence.”

    It could also encourage English emigration to Scotland and a call for Welsh independence.

  58. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2014 - 4:10 pm

    Anon
    23 May, 2014 – 11:56 am

    “John,
    “You’ve made a few fruity comments about the Joos…”

    Anon please do not use the derogatory term Joos.

    Use the correct spelling: Jews

  59. You’re not wrong there Doug, but that will bring up the prospect of an emerging English national return movement in Wales, as a reaction to Independence. I’m sure that Obummer would help a little, maybe the use of Academi soldiers to create chaos and havoc?….;)

  60. Sam Mitchell

    23 May, 2014 - 4:25 pm

    Sam in reply to Sam….Unlike you … I am convinced…have been since I was a teenager 40 odd years ago when we could have benefitted from the OIL wealth as did Norway… that Scotland would be a far wealthier country offering so much more to it’s citizens rather than the pathetic struggling infrastructure we have been “allowed” by westminster and its branch party pygmy mentalists …. and had this opportunity not been hidden by the likes of the bbc and the labour party via the McCrone report… them just possibly…. the English situation may to have improved to the ideals that Scotland is now finally likely to achieve once we leave in political terms this unfair union…. PLUS… you clearly have not an inkling of the situation in Scotland… whereas I travel and do business throughout England and can verify much of what Craig states… especially about the non mixing of schools less than 300 yards apart… so… show me somewhere comparable in Scotland???

  61. “Not all Jewish people are bad and I know there is a Jewish man helping children get to school by his presence I saw on one video. Unfortunately he is in a minority.”

    Yes, I explained that. This is what you people do. You try and twist things by picking an isolated statement, out of context, that was perhaps badly phrased. But this was Palestine, where very few Jewish people do help Palestinian children, and only last week there was an example of Jewish people shooting and killing Palestinian children, so in that case of the man who helped Palestinian children get to school it was true, he was and is in a minority. Read the comments below the one your brother dissidents jumped on. People who know me know I am not anti-Jewish, and as a result Jewish people get a bad press. So when I made the statement it was against the general criticism. Though I agree it was not well-phrased and did not get across my intent. As a Christian I cannot be anti-Jewish. Think about it! I often hold the late Aaron Russo up as an example for all to follow, Marx was a good economist, there are thousands and thousands of Jewish people who were and are good people, who have given over the years much benefit for mankind. In all races there are good and bad. So let me turn this on its head, as Marx did with Hegel, and ask do you not think the man who helped Palestinian children get to school was a good man? Do you think he was or is in a majority? If you do then you understand what I was trying to say. Now can you give me an example of my racism?

  62. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2014 - 4:37 pm

    Brendan
    23 May, 2014 – 2:20 pm

    “Well, it’s looking like Millipede is in trouble. I’ve said for about 2 years now, he’ll never be PM.”

    I predict that Ed will not be leader after the 2015 elections and I see the possibility of the return to New Labour around soon of his right-wing brother Dave.

  63. technicolour

    23 May, 2014 - 4:41 pm

    John Goss: “Now can you give me an example of my racism?”

    No, I shouldn’t think they could. But they’re distracting you from Farage which is, after all, the point.

  64. The one involved with rendition?surely not.

  65. For info,

    IDF uses live-fire zones to expel Palestinians from areas of West Bank, officer admits

    Officer tells Knesset committee method used to reduce illegal construction, Palestinian population in Area C; Habayit Hayehudi MK urges crack-down on international groups who assist construction.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.591881

    ~~~

    Letter to William Hague on the killing of two Palestinian minors by the IDF on 15th May 2014.
    Dated 23rd May 2014 from the Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights.

    http://lphr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/LPHR-letter-to-UK-Foreign-Secretary-killing-of-two-Palestinian-minors-23-5-2014-Final3.pdf

    The LPHR website http://lphr.org.uk/

  66. ‘I live in Ramsgate, one of their strongest areas and the seat which Farage is targeting to stand. I see them very close up.’

    Craig,if the Ukip supporting locals get up your nose that much, and you are as pro-immigrationist as you make out only one alternative exists south of the border- London, which is full to bursting with immigrants (or ‘vibrant diversity’ if you prefer)and where the Ukip vote is much smaller.

    You may need to trade down to a two bedroom house though- but then no more expensive, time consuming train journeys to events here.

    How about it ??

  67. Interesting piece Craig.

    It highlights the differences between Scotland and the rUk. The r UK don’t have an accurate view of how we Scots think , but i can assure you it’s a way off line to the rest of the UK A fact you commented on accurately , you have your finger on the pulse my friend.

    Sam.

    We have many poles, latvian,Asian and brits up here and the general feeling is they DO integrate into our society . I had a drink yesterday in my local with 1 Dutch , 2 lithuanians and they point out that the anti-immigration feeling down south makes it harder for them to “join in”. We have to make an effort to encourage them not scare them off. We fought a war against fascist nations only to end up following their mistakes. The world must be laughing at the state of the UK .

    As for UKIP having a following up here , well we had the BNP before and they are ignored. I doubt very much they will win a seat here. Funnily they all carry the Union Flag which hardly goes down well in Scotland and they don’t see the irony . We ARE so different from the rUK and this will show when independence is settled on the 18th.

    Funny thing too . how would the rUK feel if Spain or France started off victimising immigrants starting with huge Brit populations there. It’s pretty clear its a touchy subject until we want to go somewhere else to live .

    And Craig did you notice the MSM saying English voters in Scotland could scupper Scotlands independence charge. many saw it an attempt to raise anti-English feelings and a wee peek at the comments on these papers and i was proud to see so many of my countrymen/women trash the articles in question. We are not anti anything other than Westminster. But we wont have long to wait till thats sorted.

    Keep up the good work Craig . Getting people to debate issues means we can listen to both sides rather than the MSM’s squint view.

  68. A Node is absolutely correct that the BBC have been promoting Farage, primarily as a means of bringing the anti-immigrant dissenters under central control.

    They couldn’t do it with New Labour, Lib Dem of even New Tory. That would be too much of a wrench. They’d already done their job by creating the problem to which UKIP are the solution.

    So up pops naughty Nigel saying all the things the others can’t say, and the more he says them the more he looks the dissenter from mainstream opinion, to cheers from the ill-informed mob. Naughty Nigel is our saviour.

    What does it mean. It means the British establishment are moving far right in public politics.

    People need to understand that fascism is a means of preserving elite wealth during periods of economic stasis. That’s what Spain was about, what Italy was about, what the juntas in South America were about.

    And given that UKIP has central imprimatur writ all over, that’s where we’re headed. The other parties will now jump upon that bandwagon with varying degrees of decorum.

    People are so easily manipulated, time and time again.

    Enjoy.

  69. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    23 May, 2014 - 5:46 pm

    Since the comment from Mary at 14h58 is off-topic (it is about Israel and Gaza), I am obliged to remind readers that Mary denies the right of Israel to exist and is a Jew-hater.

    (As promised, I shall issue this reminder every time Mary attempts to drag Israel/Palestine into a wholly unrelated thread)

  70. The Norwich socialist/green bastion has voted no overall change,
    15 Labour, 14 green and 3 Lib Dems,
    0 Tories and 0 UKIP.
    don’t know how many spoiled.

  71. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    23 May, 2014 - 5:54 pm

    Mr Scorgie

    “Anon
    23 May, 2014 – 11:56 am

    “John,
    “You’ve made a few fruity comments about the Joos…”

    Anon please do not use the derogatory term Joos.

    Use the correct spelling: Jews”
    ______________________

    When commenters write “Jooos” instead of “Jews”, they are doing so to take the piss out of Jew-haters like yourself and your Mother Mary.

    But you know that of course – you’re just fooling around again for want of any substance to write about.

    BTW, I believe you’re another of those who deny the right of Israel to exist?

  72. The Scots can escape rUk’s fascist future by voting YES to independence. On their own they have a potential for economic growth which rUK does not have.

    The UK, even with Scottish oil, will not have the growth necessary to sustain its current population in an open economy, and that’s why they need to close down those freedoms people previously took for granted.

    Without Scottish oil, the economic future for rUK is obviously even more bleak.

    The only way out for Britain is that Russia, China etc fully subjugate their resources and economy to Western banking diktat. That’s of course the only way out for the US too, who are similarly preparing themselves for a fascist future, should the current global rumblings not work in their favor.

  73. Twice I am called a ‘Jew hater’ by the chief troll who has been noticeable by his absence and who has just come on shift. He is full of malice.

    I am not a Jew hater. I support the Palestinians in their quest for a homeland and relief from the atrocities that are inflicted on them by the Israelis. The word ‘Israel’ is not the same as ‘Jew’. Nota bene!

  74. Ex Ambassador Charles Crawford is rather obsessed with this blog. His own blog has been rehashed. The other day he reprinted all the comments about him that were listed on his previous ‘blogoir’ including Craig’s, mine and two others from here.

    http://charlescrawford.biz/2014/05/21/diplomacy-and-ex-diplomacy-what-the-critics-say/

  75. Craig @ 10.38

    “Typical middle class socialist who almost never actually socializes with working class people. Try talking to people in a Ramsgate pub, then come back and tell me how amazed you are by their tolerance.”

    Actually, Craig, until a couple of years ago I was doing twelve-hour nights in a factory. I currently earn around £7,500 a year.

    I’m a kind of socialist, I suppose, but I don’t use the word since like many these days it is mis-used. I have never voted Labour, though two grandparents were in the Communist Party between the wars. Amusingly, one of them sold tea-cosies with the hammer and sickle on in the market.

    Of course there is intolerance here; who could doubt it. Racism, being a manifestation of ignorance, will not be defeated until ignorance is expunged – and ignorance is a disease we all suffer from to a greater or lesser extent, so it doesn’t behove any of us to point too many fingers.

    But I stand by what I said about that section of the population for whom the good times were never that good. Some sympathy might be in order for their plight and it is difficult to understand how anyone sane could advocate mass immigration simultaneously with mass unemployment. There are also the long-term environmental consequences of pointlessly promoting the kind of population density we now must accept, but that is another story.

    By the way, I don’t live anywhere near Ramsgate and I am tee-total, but there was no way you could have known that.

  76. Craig @ 12pm

    “The best news for ages was the net immigration of 250,000 odd in the last twelve months. We need a lot more workers to pay the future pensions of our ageing populations.”

    That’s just a Ponzi-scheme Craig. It’s totally unsustainable for the long-term.

  77. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    23 May, 2014 - 8:32 pm

    Mary

    “Twice I am called a ‘Jew hater’ by the chief troll who has been noticeable by his absence and who has just come on shift. He is full of malice.”
    ____________________

    I notice that you are keeping quiet about the “denying the right of Israel to exist” part of my comment.

  78. An interesting post here from a South African on the Ode to Peres by Aaronovitch thread on Medialens. The photo is most revealing.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1400851213.html

    The whole thread http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1400768542.html

  79. This is a very depressing headline as if it is definite that she (Hillary ‘We saw, we came, he died’ Clinton) is running for President. God help us all if she does get elected.

    Obama Picks Latino Rising Star For Cabinet
    Julian Castro, a 39-year-old mayor from Texas, is already being tipped as a White House running mate for Hillary Clinton in 2016.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1267822/obama-picks-latino-rising-star-for-cabinet

    On the same webpage was this below. The horror of the cruelty involved is beyond any word. How long has it been happening? Since January 2002 when Rumsfeld set up the hellhole.

    Guantanamo Force-Feeding Of Inmate To Resume
    A judge lifts a suspension on the force-feeding of a hunger-striking inmate because of the “very real probability” he will die.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1267864/guantanamo-force-feeding-of-inmate-to-resume

    May 21, 2014
    The Guantánamo “Suicides” Revisited: Did CIA Hide Deaths of Tortured Prisoners at Secret Site?
    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/21/the_guantanamo_suicides_revisited_did_cia

  80. Craig @ 12.00p -

    “Anon

    Opposition to immigration is racist. The best news for ages was the net immigration of 250,000 odd in the last twelve months. We need a lot more workers to pay the future pensions of our ageing populations. ”

    - – - – -

    Craig, I have to reply to that profoundly ignorant statement of yours as bluntly as possible.

    Opposition to immigration is increasingly on the basis of overpopulation which is driving the exponential consumption of finite resources and leaving people to despair at their dwindling share of a diminishing pie.

    Working class people don’t need to be experts in economics to know when they are being fucked over with a con job that involves exploiting immigration as a means of creating fake economic growth. And when they complain about it with an obvious ignorance of many details but a certain knowledge that unemployed migrants do not help, they’re called – you guessed it, racists.

    The shamelessly peddled claim that more workers are needed to finance the retirement of an ageing population is a stupid myth sold to a gullible public by big business who want more consumers, land holders who want increasing land values, banks that want more cream from growing mortgages and the usual gang of left-wing dickheads in the failing cult of multiculturalism.

    (Reading : Ageing Australia – http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/44578.html)

    Craig, kindly answer these question, if you have time.

    How will you fund the retirement of migrants when their time comes? More migrants? And them? Yet more migrants? Do you imagine that the world or maybe just the UK can have an indefinitely growing population? Or that future generations can deal with the problems you leave them when the country wakes up to a massive population with insufficient resources to meet their basic needs?

    Since a country must first accommodate, feed and provide new arrivals with essential services, these infrastructural assets must be available as soon as that plane, ship or truckload of migrants arrives.

    Does the UK already have the 100,000s of pounds it costs to provide each and every one of these new arrivals with first world services and amenities? You can’t just put them in the gutter to sleep. You promised them a first world lifestyle and they expect you to deliver on that promise, or else. Good luck to your failing NHS with that job.

    At a time when cheap energy resources are being exhausted at an exponential rate, what do you think will power the economy of the future? Coal? Nuclear energy? Solar energy? Wind? Turnips? Magic beans? Or those fantastic inventions that we see on tv but don’t yet exist?

    Look at the difference between the periods of pre and post industrial revolution in the UK. Now imagine flipping those periods around. That’s what our future looks like and you want to make it worse increasing the number of mouths to feed with a diminishing capacity to produce.

    (Reading : Population and infrastructure – http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/39930.html)

    Craig, do you know what a Ponzi scheme is? That’s what you are advocating not just for the UK but for the world. A fraudulent pyramid scheme which requires perpetual growth in order to maintain continuity of its irrational business model. Of course, when you run out of suckers who want to invest in your scam it collapses like a house of cards and you’re out the window with the cash.

    (Reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme)

    - – - -

    Some more readings

    World Population Explosion
    http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/time-running-out-address-world-s-population-explosion

    Big Australia Illusion
    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2014/4/22/economy/big-australia-illusion

  81. ” There is no choice open of a social democratic UK.”

    It doubt it will function as you hope Craig unless you can control the corporate entity. You will not control the boardrooms and there profits unless you control the universal money supply.
    If you can get that the best you can hope for is democratic principles but it is human beings we are talking and that’s never absolutist, is it?

  82. @ Anon

    “Aside from the fact that he didn’t even attend university could you not at least spell his name correctly?”

    No, he’s a dick, and if I got his name wrong, fuck him.

    Also, you have heard of this thing called a ‘cover story’? It is perfectly feasible for an Oxbridge spook to have a back story that doesn’t include going to university. I hate to break this to you, but the security services often tell lies. Hope you aren’t too upset.

    Oh, ok, he’s probably not an Oxbridge spook. Still a fake though, of some sort.

  83. “usual gang of left-wing dickheads in the failing cult of multiculturalism.”

    @ Jemand

    What matters most is the quality of people. People come together and flourish it’s about quality and aspirations . If you get a desire to improve be a better person give to society. Society will benefit.

    http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/x1ri30e_entretien-avec-gilad-atzmon-sur-le-national-socialisme-de-george-orwell_webcam

  84. Resident Dissident

    24 May, 2014 - 12:50 pm

    So Mr Scorgie thinks the Interpreter and the Insitute of Modern Russia and the Herzen Foundation who are behind it are anti Russian rather than just against the Putin regime (although I have my doubts as to whether he can distinguish between the two concepts) – perhaps he could provide some examples. Given its support from liberal Russians I suspect he will struggle somewhat.

    Yes I agree that the twitter account of Putin’s Crimean puppet may have been hacked in to – put he of course fails to address all the other racist/fascist outbursts pointed out in the article, which he bothered to look was based on reporting a Russian (self hating presumably) web site. He might also wish to address the latest little outburst from Putin’s favourite fascist puppet – he who seems to have done little to tame over the past 14 years!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609016/Six-month-pregnant-journalist-taken-hospital-treatment-pro-Kremlin-political-leader-ordered-aides-violently-rape-press-conference-asked-sanctions-against-Ukraine.html

  85. Jemand has left behind ‘Why won’t God heal amputees’ and then something about Islam and whitewash and now links to a Pat Condell espousing ‘Take your god and shove him’ on video. What are we to make of these links?

  86. What “we” are to make of those links, Mary, is that I am an atheist with the right to share an opinion. What problem do you have with that? And what should we make of your obvious attempt to cause trouble on this thread with that unprovoked comment?

  87. That’s rich coming from you.

  88. Mary, are you a Muslim who takes offence at my criticisms of religion but in particular, Islam?

  89. It might explain your otherwise inexplicable hatred of Jewish people.

  90. Don’t be ridiculous. I have been looking through a few threads. You are doing a good job of disruption on most of them.

  91. That’s rich coming from you.

    Why did you disrupt this thread with your address to me? What problem do you have with dissent? Is it because you believe that opinons that are different to yours are all wrong and that people do not have a right (freedom) to be wrong in their journey to find the truth?

    Isn’t debate all about reconciling different opinions in the common cause of discovering the truth?

    Maybe these questions are too hard for you. I shouldn’t expect any real answers from you Mary, just the usual evasions and implied accusations and a punch in the back of my head from one of your chivalrous mates.

  92. Turnout in the EU elections in South Norfolk, some 38%, with Thorpe Abbott being the highest at 39%. with the lowest being In Diss, Wymondham and the very posh Framinham Pigot with a dismal 21%.

    So one of the places which is earning its money all around the world and in Europe, a very affluent little village, is also one of the worst for voting.

    http://www.south-norfolk.gov.uk/democracy/media/Polling-Station-Ballot-Verification-and-Turnout.pdf

    No idea yet as to how many of these few votes were spoiled. The party political oligarchs together with the BBC and the regional newspapers have managed to keep the profile of this election so low, its almost cellar, whilst proclaiming that this was the most important election for Europe ever.

    But in this country they buy any old crap these power addicts and their mouthpieces say, don’t they?

  93. Jemand interprets my refusal to answer to the interrogation by trolls as ‘evasions’.LOL.

  94. Mary, you proved yourself to be a troll by repeatedly accusing all dissenters of trolling. Your refusal to answer any questions other than benign ones from your fans is also proof of your evasiveness. Why are you afraid of disagreement and debate?

  95. A troll is a troll is a troll. I should know from bitter experience. Do not be silly. I do not have fans. Not afraid either, especially not of your stuff.

  96. Jermyn St. Jim.

    29 May, 2014 - 9:58 pm

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