Vote Green in England

by craig on May 21, 2014 10:41 am in Uncategorized

So who should those of us living in England vote for tomorrow? I intend to vote Green – it seems to me that in England that is the best way to give a positive expression to the discontent with mainstream parties. I particularly hope that those who have the opportunity to vote for Rupert Read in the East of England will do so. Their support for renationalizing the railways would be enough for me, but actually I find myself in agreement with the large majority of their platform. I reproduce here an article from the ever excellent Peter Tatchell.

The Greens – not UKIP – are the real alternative to the political Establishment

By Peter Tatchell

Each of the three Establishment parties has succeeded in alienating its core vote. Labour over Iraq and the casino banking culture that flourished during its tenure in office. The Tories over Europe and equal marriage. And the Lib Dems over tuition fees and propping up of one of the most anti-egalitarian governments of modern times. All have been tainted by the scandal over MPs expenses. As a result, participation in mainstream politics is declining further than ever.

The UK’s first-past-the-post voting system is said to produce strong governments, avoiding what many perceive as the grubby infighting that dominates politics on the continent. But it isn’t working anymore. Millions of votes don’t count in rock solid safe seats and supporters of small parties are unrepresented or under-represented in parliament.

Many voters damn the political elite with the familiar refrain: “They’re all the same.” This is fairly true with regard to the big three parties: Labour, Tory and Lib Dem. There is very little difference between them these days. They all embrace, to marginally varying degrees, neo liberal economics.

Many people are, however, desperate for an alternative but they fear their voice will not be heard.

The European elections this Thursday offer a chance for something different. Because they use a system of proportional representation (PR), we have an opportunity to vote for what we believe in, without fearing that our votes will be wasted. PR is sometimes a mixed blessing. It was PR that allowed UKIP a foot in the door at the last Euro poll, and in this election it looks like the anti-EU party will win more seats than anyone thought possible for a new party 15 or even 10 years ago.

Nigel Farage entered the European Parliament in 1999. This was also the year that Caroline Lucas was elected as one of the UK’s first two Green MEPs (the other was Jean Lambert). She went on to become the first Green MP at Westminster. A parliamentary seat still evades Farage and his party.

UKIP supporters want to withdraw from the EU. They fantasise about plucky Britain standing alone against the world. UKIP stirs this nostalgia for ‘Great Britain’ and excites fear about immigrants and refugees. It has filled some of the void created by the discredited mainstream politics and, in particular, by the weakness of the orthodox left.

But for people who believe in social justice and equality, and who want action to thwart climate destruction and to protect the precious environment on which all life depends, the Greens – not UKIP – are the real alternative to the big three parties.

The Green vote is seen by some people as a protest vote, and there is no reason why it shouldn’t be. It is a vote against Labour’s failure to defend working class people and its initiation of the part privatisation of education and health care. It is a vote against the Lib Dem’s abandonment of principle in favour of power. It is a vote against Tory austerity which makes ordinary people pay for the economic crisis created by reckless bankers. It is most certainly a vote against the homophobia, xenophobia and climate change denial of UKIP.

But in this election, voting Green it is also a vote for something. The Greens are a party that offers an imaginative, alternative positive vision of how our future could look. This is fairly unique, given the broad political consensus between the stale, grey Tories, Labour and Lib Dems.

Unlike the three Establishment parties and UKIP, the Greens advocate decisive EU action to close tax avoidance loopholes and tax havens, tax empty homes and financial transactions, cap banker’s bonuses, axe nuclear weapons, prioritise energy conservation to cut household bills and to introduce rent controls, a living wage and free education.

http://www.reasonstovotegreen.org.uk

As a veteran of nearly 50 years of political campaigns, I look toward 22 May with a strange mixture of hope and fear. Fear that the hate-mongers of UKIP are poised to advance and to challenge some of the gains in minority rights and human rights, with the aid of their far right allies in the European Parliament. But also hope that the Greens may eclipse the Lib Dems; including the election of new Green MEPs such as Peter Cranie in North West England and Rupert Read in the East of England. Both lost narrowly last time. A tiny swing to the Greens will get them elected and, in the North West, will have the added bonus of probably surpassing the British National Party vote and thereby blocking the re-election of BNP leader Nick Griffin.

Make sure you vote: Show UKIP and the three Establishment parties the red card. Give the Greens a chance.

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193 Comments

  1. lucythediclonius

    21 May, 2014 - 10:55 am

    Another U turn Craig? Nice to see.

  2. Using differing tactics in differing circumstances to try to achieve the same general ends is hardly a U turn.

  3. lucythediclonius

    21 May, 2014 - 11:12 am

    Just a joke Ed I remember Craig’s comments from the Norfolk by election .The Green Party may have matured since then and of course people are free to change their minds .

  4. Lucythediclonius

    I (genuinely) don’t remember any such comments about the Greens. What did I say? (Not meant to be an aggressive question, am genuinely curious. I have always had a good opinion of the Greens’ beliefs, if not always od their campaigning nouse).

  5. lucythediclonius

    21 May, 2014 - 11:20 am

    Something like the Green Party ( UK) are not the European Greens which I thin you were broadly in favour of.

  6. If I lived in the East of England I would not vote for Read because of his support for rabble rebels in Syria. He can’t seem to see it. It is not a question of support for Russia. He should have established who is feeding the weaponry into the opposition.

    Syria: my enemy’s enemy is not my friend
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/rupert-read/syria-my-enemy%E2%80%99s-enemy-is-not-my-friend

    He refers to this Medialens alert.

    UN ‘Travesty': Resolutions Of Mass Destruction – Part 1 http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=665:travesty-un-resolutions-of-mass-destruction-part-1&catid=25:alerts-2012&Itemid=9

  7. Otherwise I will follow your advice to the letter.

    ‘Show UKIP and the three Establishment parties the red card.’

    Farage is in my lot.
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/south-east-european-candidates-2014/

  8. lucythediclonius

    21 May, 2014 - 11:35 am

    I don’t know about Read’s position But I know Caroline Lucas described the Syria vote as a first step towards an independent foreign policy.I presume she didn’t mean in the UKIP sense.

  9. Do you have a party in the UK that is primarily concerned with responsible management of population? If it exists, it could be the greenest thing you vote for.

    http://www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2011/04/01/3179045.htm

  10. “Show UKIP and the three Establishment parties the red card”

    That leaves the anti-EU voter with no-one to vote for.

  11. Green are also part of the British ESTABLISHMENT. If Brits want to elect someone wh really represents the interests of the majority of the Brits, he should vote for the Respect Party.

    http://rehmat1.com/2012/04/15/galloway-im-better-pakistani-than-hussain/

  12. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 12:29 pm

    Hmmm. Read’s yet another Oxford PPE grad – Balliol, even. While I would certainly rather vote Green than UKIP, on principle, I’m not sure about highly cerebral academics* who, despite their later realisation that capitalism sucks, have nevertheless imbibed the market ethos at uni. As a protest vote, yes. With the serious intention of changing the system, no. Which is what I’d also say about UKIP.

    Also like UKIP, the Greens have to make enormous compromises between what their activists think desirable and what is actually possible. Some of these are illustrated here:

    http://www.channel4.com/news/uk-green-partys-principles-falling-behind-europe

    Your earlier post was nearer my mark, Craig. Working within the system, which takes globalisation as a given, and is sponsored by oligarchs, is not going to bring the system down. (And do you want to bet the Greens won’t get support from the fat cats if and when they start looking electable? Said felines will back every horse in the race in order to have influence with the winner)

    *Appears to have devoted his career to the analysis of Wittgenstein – the philosophical equivalent of analysing DNA, with considerably fewer practical applications…
    https://www.uea.ac.uk/philosophy/people/profile/r-read

  13. I shall vote Green despite being pro fracking and pro nuclear. Their social policies are in line with my values of solidarity and brotherhood which the main parties have abandoned and the Fascist UKIP detests

  14. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 12:35 pm

    Jemand – agreed. The Greens at any rate address the population issue. Here:

    http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/pp.html

  15. BZ, that reads pretty well, tho cautious. Seems like they are preparing to deal with pop as an issue without making the sort of policy commitments that get people fired up. It is definitely different to our local Greens which now makes the UK Loony Party look more like the Eminently Sensible Party.

  16. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 1:01 pm

    I’m reluctant to piss in Read’s porridge, but this plays into your view, Jemand :

    https://www.uea.ac.uk/~j339/animalspeace.htm

    I’m afraid he has a messianic tendency.

  17. Ref the EU, ECCP, PSC and Israel.

    Is Palestine ‘solidarity’ going soft?

    Posted by Stuart Littlewood on May 20, 2014 in Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS), Israel, Israel/Palestine, Middle East, Opinion, Palestine

    “The EU policy of maintaining close relations with Israel as a supposed means of persuading it to end its violations of human rights and international law, and negotiate in good faith, has clearly failed.”

    http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2014/05/palestine-solidarity-going-soft/

  18. I know lots of Greens, and share many of their core beliefs, and have voted Green at least once previously. The current capitalist system where every product is designed to fail (just after the guarantee has expired – so that it needs to be replaced to maintain profits) is totally destructive to the environment, resulting in the most obscene levels of pollution in places like India – that are literally poisoning the local populations. Many countries such as India, would be far better off, if the Industrial Revolution had never happened, and core Green policies – that had been practiced for thousands of years would be far preferential to Indian people than what is now happening – which includes the encroach of Monsanto and GM food – which is a complete and utter destructive tragedy.

    However, most Green energy policies, simply will not work in an Industrialised World to support 7 Billion people. Deep analysis reveals that many such Green energy projects are in fact energy sinks – producing less energy throughout their lifetime, than all the conventional energy inputs needed to construct and maintain them. This is the best analysis I have seen on the subject…

    http://ourfiniteworld.com/2014/01/21/ten-reasons-intermittent-renewables-wind-and-solar-pv-are-a-problem/

    Also the Green Movement has long since been hijacked, by extremely powerful forces who have a Mass Human Genocide agenda, and complete de-industrialisation of the planet…This would result in sending us back to the dark ages, in a mass horror story, that would make hell seem a good alternative.

    There are Graceful solutions to all our problems, but we will never even consider them, whilst powerful forces from across the political spectrum drown us in lies in pursuit of their own agendas, usually built on greed or religious dogma, rather than legitimate science, which recently has also been totally corrupted and is rarely seen.

    Tony

  19. Haward: “I shall vote Green despite being pro fracking and pro nuclear.”

    Are you saying the Greens are pro fracking and pro nuclear or are you saying you are?

  20. doug scorgie

    21 May, 2014 - 1:21 pm

    I have to agree with Mary at 11:25am

    Rupert Read seems to be another weathervane politician educated at Oxford (PPE) and the USA like most of the three main party hierarchies.

    I like the Green Party myself and they are certainly to the left of New Labour (as the LibDems were before getting power through a coalition with the Tories) but I doubt that Dr Read is.

    Time will tell but I will be voting for a Green candidate in London, Caroline Allen.

  21. O/T The Prince Charles story at the top of the BBC website all morning!! has been replaced by this. Should get a message across to Obomber, Cameron, Hague, Lady Ashton and co.

    Russia signs 30-year gas deal with China
    Russia’s President Vladimir Putin has signed a multi-billion dollar, 30-year gas deal with China.

    The deal between Russia’s Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) has been 10 years in the making. No official price has been given but it is estimated to be worth over $400bn.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27503017

  22. LOL

  23. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 1:29 pm

    Put the bong down, Anon.

  24. BZ, yeah Read’s views are the stuff that makes voting difficult. He has some valid claims about commercial exploitation of animals but what does he want to achieve? A Disney world where the Lion King becomes best friends with Bambi while we munch on Lentls?

    He talked about fish being hooked and plucked out of the water, then asked the reader to imagine how it would feel if it happened to us. I wonder how he expects fish to die as they must. Peacfully in an old fish’s home? Assisted suicide with its loved ones by its side? The reality is that it is hunted in a terrifying chase and chomped up by a predator, or it gets a disease that kills it slowly and painfully. He didn’t mention that.

    And he doesn’t hold other animals to moral account either, just humans. So does he think that the cruel playing with mice by cats before they are eaten is ok or not? What does he do in his spare time? Save insects from birds? Birds from cats? Or just cats from Chinese fur traders?

    There really are limitations to empathising with animals.

  25. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 1:51 pm

    It occurs to me that no employer would so much as consider an applicant for a £67,070-a-year post without at least a bit of background checking. So why do we, the public, take aspirant MP’s on trust and decide who gets the job we are offering based on no better evidence than the prettiest party manifesto?

  26. If we are talking about killing, these two Palestinian lads were killed in cold blood.

    It is a DCI video linked within a BBC piece found at the bottom of their Middle East page. Israel disputes the veracity of the video of course.

    Note the use of inverted commas.

    Video ‘shows shootings of Palestinian protesters’
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27488135

    Unlawful killing of two Palestinian teens outside Ofer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaibEqx2m_k

    Ofer is one of the many Israeli prisons within which G4S operate.
    http://www.corporatewatch.org/?q=company-profiles/g4s-palestine

  27. if you want to vote for an ignorant self serving back stabber such as Rupert Read, you are welcome.

    I will for the first time ever, spoil my ballot paper, because Rupert does not want to see tidal energy, he wants solar farms for rich people with a desire for taxpayers subvsidies, just as Richard Bearmann their county council chief of all shades green.

    Not a single party has a mandate for this prechewed candidates list, not a single candidate in tommorrows elections was chosen by the general public, indeed this most important EU election ever, as it was billed, is the biggest damp squid ever.

  28. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 1:57 pm

    Think I’ll join you there, Nevermind. ‘None OF The Above’ it is.

  29. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 2:03 pm

    PS…most squids are damp. Just saying; a damp squib is the dysfunctional firework you are reaching for. :-)

  30. If your local Left Unity recommends the Green candidate vote Green. There is no LU candidate in my area. I have voted Green in local elections quite often but always been disappointed with the showing. It’s like there is only me and a handful more voting Green. This year I am voting tactically.

  31. The problem is that whoever you vote for you end up propping the system which is so well established that there is no chance that any party other than the establishment parties will ever win. What is needed is for people to show the powers that be that we reject the system and that can only be achieved, using the ballot box, by spoiling our votes; just not voting is not the solution, nor voting for independent, Green, Respect or any other candidate. I am totally convinced that even if only 10 percent voters cast their votes, the establishment parties will carry on claiming full mandate.
    I think NOTA, irrespective of who their suporters are, is probably the answer as once a majority of voters spoil their votes even the likes of Cameron or Blair will have to take notice.

  32. Britain’s party leaders are making their final pitches ahead of Thursday’s local and European elections.

    Labour is neck-and-neck with UKIP in the battle to get the biggest vote share in the Euro election, according to the latest Sun/YouGov poll.

    Both parties are on 27%, with the Conservatives in third place on 23%.

    The Lib Dems, on 10%, edged back ahead of the Greens, on 8%, according to the survey of 1,874 adults on 19 and 20 May.

    BBC 21 May 2014 Last updated at 14:12
    Tight race as parties make final Euro and local pitch

  33. I forgot your expertise in the marine environ, Ba’al buko Harem, should I have said damp squit instead? or would you Know somthin’ about squit as well?

    Greens love conservationist Greens who love animals, as long as they don’t have two legs and can talk. Their sole presumption is to reduce our influences on the natural environment, by any means possible, that we are part and parcel of this environ, in the same sinking boat so to speak, does not ring a bell.

    Conservationist Greens, the RSPB and other NGO’s with too much ‘charitable’ (not)clout oppose a Severn barrier and tidal system, they are vehemently opposed to precaution or safeguarding our biggest fresh food growing area in the Fenlands with a Wash tidal energy system and barrier. And they would be the first to oppose a Thames barrier, and sod the humans.

    Apart from shining a focus on recycling, Norwich Greens have run along with the ideas of the other main parties, despite being the biggest opposition to a smelly old Labour administration who lost many active members to the Greens. They have not implemented any of their policies. They would argue that they have done loads for cyclists, but Norwich has always been a cycling City, its the fastes way to get around it. Norwich Cycling campaign was not founded by Greens but by cyclists.

    The Green party is really bad at looking after and supporting their activists, burning up people with multiple responsibilities. They do not represent the moral high ground, and have had their own internal problems.
    http://ukpaedos-exposed.com/2012/04/26/gary-anderson-derby/

    and for all its balance the majority are working within the established old traditional parties which have nearly managed to genetically bamboozle all of Britain into electoral papathy
    http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/articles/Partial_List_of_Convicted_British_Paedo_Politicians.html

  34. Tatchell has form on Syria. He would like a no fly zone just like Libya I assume and we know how that turned out.
    http://interventionswatch.wordpress.com/2013/08/31/peter-tatchell-at-todays-demo-against-bombing-syria/

    Anyway he might be getting one (a NFZ>war) in the guise of upcoming US build ups for military exercises in the Black Sea and in Jordan.

    Ukraine and Syria: Elections at the Barrels of US-NATO Guns?
    by Felicity Arbuthnot / May 20th, 2014
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/05/ukraine-and-syria-elections-at-the-barrels-of-us-nato-guns/

  35. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    21 May, 2014 - 2:44 pm

    I voted for the Green Ralph Nader in 2000 and peers berate me for giving us Dubya and the Iraq debacle. The system is jerry-rigged to consign non-linear voting to the circular file. What’s needed is a top-down haircut for the reigning political parties who look and behave so similarly that their inbreeding is not a bug, but a feature of their governance.

  36. Well it looks like your Greens are as bad as our Greens. I guess the only option then is to take up watching football on tv fulltime.

  37. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 May, 2014 - 3:07 pm

    Ref the EU, ECCP, PSC and Israel.

    “Is Palestine ‘solidarity’ going soft?

    Posted by Stuart Littlewood on May 20, 2014 in Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS), Israel, Israel/Palestine, Middle East, Opinion, Palestine

    “The EU policy of maintaining close relations with Israel as a supposed means of persuading it to end its violations of human rights and international law, and negotiate in good faith, has clearly failed.”

    http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2014/05/palestine-solidarity-going-soft/
    __________________________

    On only page 1 and a mere 5 hours in, here we are again with Israel/Palestine, courtesy of the obsessional Mary.

    In typical troll fashion, no respect for the blog or its owner.

    ****************************

    Support Israeli products, tourism and the shekel.

  38. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 May, 2014 - 3:09 pm

    Tony M

    “Haward: “I shall vote Green despite being pro fracking and pro nuclear.”

    Are you saying the Greens are pro fracking and pro nuclear or are you saying you are?”
    ___________________

    Are you totally ignorant of the rules of grammar, Tony?

    ********************

    Support Michael Give?

  39. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 May, 2014 - 3:10 pm

    Or even “Support Michael Gove!”

  40. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 May, 2014 - 3:20 pm

    Mary

    “If we are talking about killing, these two Palestinian lads were killed in cold blood.”
    _________________

    We were talking about the killing of animals for food, in the context of the views of a Green Party candidate.

    Why then are you commenting yet again on Israel/Palestine. You really are an old blog-fascist with an over-blown sense of entitlement, aren’t you.

    I think that from now on, every time you write on Israel/Palestine OFF TOPIC, I shall remind people that you deny the right of Israel to exist and that you are anti-Jewish. That’s fair, isn’t it?

  41. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    21 May, 2014 - 3:21 pm

    ” I guess the only option then is to take up watching football on tv fulltime.”

    Part and parcel of the reason the system is brokeass. Keeping the hordes occupied with events at Circus Maximus assures their tenure.

    I hesitate to suggest some benign/ benevolent tyranny, but Claudius was able to get some shit done.

  42. After Scotland’s independence is secure with a Yes Vote and Scotland’s first post-independence SNP government in 2016 set for a chance to shine and retire magnificent, I’ve a tough choice thereafter between the mildly but practically and pragmatically green and left of traditional-centre Scottish National Party, who’ll always be first choice for my vote where Scotland’s constitution or independence of direction is concerned or for Scotland’s own Green Party who’s Holyrood electoral performances have varied but the logic and consistency of their stated policies on the environment and on general issues, many of which impact on or are impacted by the environment often themselves, cohere and appeal.

    I’ve never really how known the different Green parties in different places within Britain and without in the wider world relate, I’m fairly sure Scotland’s and the other parts of the UKs Green Parties are distinct from one another, have different ideas, organisation, leadership and policies but I hope, presume coalesce in the general direction of healing the earth, the land, the air, the seas and the rift in inter-human and inter-environment empathy wrought by neo-liberal economic exploitation and devastation. Quite apart from that, the superset is the green movement, and its little actions from picking up litter, to composting, to the spiritual bonds which transcend borders and polities, that common yearning to leave the world a better place than when you found it, close closed gates after you, pat cute doggies on the head and breathe freely.

    I’ll be voting tactfully, by voting for the independence supporting Scottish National Party and for Independence that sunny September, but I’ll tell anyone else including blue or red or yellow Tories stumbling out of their cocoons into the real world, knocking on the door, I’ll be voting for them, possibly with a suggestive wink too, the mad nasty deluded fools, I’m too nice for the rough and tumble world but might practice a sinister chuckle of pleasure at the thought of their unfounded and false hopes collapsing.

  43. Ba'al Zevul (Bokonon Rastafari)

    21 May, 2014 - 3:29 pm

    I know squat about squit, Nevermind.

    Ben – you are about to correctly identify the problem. The function of government is to govern. Maybe not Claudius, although he was a refreshing change from his two predecessors, but how about a Cromwell? Grab this bunch of smug and venal placemen and give them a good shaking. By the neck until dead if appropriate. Then enforce some ethics.

    I hate myself for thinking this.

  44. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    21 May, 2014 - 3:44 pm

    Ba’al; I believe Diogenes is still looking for an honest man. Trouble is; once you find one he/she must be kept out of the public spotlight for their own safety.

  45. From what i remember in Norwich North Craig didn’t have any problem with the greens. It was with the BBC for allowing the Green candidate to take part in the televised debate, but not him, which was pretty unfair.

    I’m in favour of people changing their minds too. If we refuse to be persuaded by new events or evidence then we could end up like Tony Blair, too vain to ever admit having made any mistake and too blind ever to look at anything that might conflict with our first assumptions.

    And in a PR election like the European parliament elections the Greens have a good chance – especially when vote counting is by the D’Hondt system (basically after a party gets 1 seat in a multi-member constituency their share or the vote is halved when calculating who gets the next one. If they get two seats their share of the vote is divided by three when deciding who gets the next one and so on.)

    Caroline Lucas managed to get elected as an MP even under First Past the Post.

  46. > trolly Craig is writing about voting for MEPs.

    The article I linked to refers to those very representatives. Some of the mealy mouthed replies from the candidates to the question as to their stance on Israel/Palestine are amazing.

    Read the title and the content. “The EU policy of maintaining close relations with Israel as a supposed means of persuading it to end its violations of human rights and international law, and negotiate in good faith, has clearly failed.”

    The killing of the two Palestinian youths is just one of those Israeli abuses of law and it is important that people see what is going on. Apparently the BBC think so too.

    Even you might be surprised at the strength of the Israel lobby in the EU. Stealthily and gradually Israel is gaining entry.

    Are you taking turns today? I will not be cross questioned by the likes of you. Who the hell do you think you are?

  47. I’ve just looked at the candidates; this is ridiculous! In a European election I have a choice of four anti-Europe parties(!), a far right party, a religious party, the Greens fielding a religious candidate, and the Big Three, one of whom is hinting that Europe is no good as it stands. This election seems to hate itself.

    I couldn’t really take the Greens seriously as a political party until I found out they had a paedophile. Now it looks like I can vote for the Green lizard to try to keep the other lizards out…

    Or maybe None Of The Above…

  48. ”I guess the only option then is to take up watching football on tv fulltime.”

    Yes. Get the tinnies on ice, fire up the barbie and watch the match while catching some rays. I hope I have the jargon correct.

    Forget about the horrors the politicians are committing on our behalf (and condoning and supporting the horrors being committed in other countries) but NOT in our name.

    Most of the people are doing that (wide awake but actually asleep) most of the time.

  49. Stop the presses. Forget about the EU ‘elections’.

    Top billing on the BBC website.

    Breaking news
    Duke has ‘minor procedure’ on hand
    Duke of Edinburgh has had “minor procedure” on his right hand, Buckingham Palace says

    Almost surreal.

  50. Mary I saw that footage of the two Palestinian boys shot dead by Israeli troops. It is important when injustice is done to make it public. The parents of those children are going to be drowned in grief. I hope they can forgive. Apologies to those who have no sympathy for the loss of life.

    Ben, voting Ralph Nader did not put Dubya in power. It was Karl Rove and probably in alliance with the Koch Brothers who put Bush in power after he lost fair and square, despite you not voting for (was it Al Gore?). Rove was responsible for some electronic voting machinery that could be used to sway a marginal vote. Clever stuff. I never vote in an election other than walking down to the booth.

  51. Rusbridger spoke last night. Vote Labour,LD, Green but not Con! Note he gets in a little plug for a Scots No vote in the title. Who does he mean by ‘nationalists’. They are dreadful from what I have seen in their PP broadcasts.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/20/european-parliament-elections-better-together-editorial

    ‘That means voting for internationalist parties that are positively engaged in Europe – like Labour, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens and the nationalists. And it means voting with determination against parties that want to pull up the drawbridge (like Ukip) or that flirt with it (like the Conservatives). Our generation has a big responsibility. We need to put as much effort into sticking together as the other side does into separatism and isolationism. That effort should start on Thursday.’

  52. Sofia Kibo Noh

    21 May, 2014 - 4:51 pm

    Don’t be too hasty with those Greens. Voting only encourages them. Observe their behaviour when they get a chance at government.

    I don’t know much about the UK variety but the sub-species on these shores showed itself to be truly sub in so many ways.

    Many Irish voters have bitter memories of a thriving party able to field passionately verbal candidates to gather our votes but also able, at the drop of a hat, to abandon their professed principles and serve the politico/corporate establishment.

    In 2007 they entered coalition here with Fianna Fail, one of our two dominant right wing parties*, riding a wave of voters who saw in them a radical, progressive, new left alternative to the corruption, social conservatism and neo-liberal orthodoxy of the other Irish parties .

    By, among other diappointments, supporting the neo-liberal shock doctrine employed by Fianna Fail, the Greens subsequently lost the trust of their support base and were wiped out at the 2011 election.

    If you do vote them into any kind of power, I wish you well, but I worry that you’ll be sorely diappointed.

    * Some peoples get all the luck!

  53. ZOMG.

    You think voting for the Green Party makes a “political revolutionary”?

    Many, many greens have long abandoned the Green Party because the Party is already too compromised even in it’s first tiny steps towards power. By the time the Green Party ever reaches a position of significant influence it will be as corrupted as any other.

    Craig, you are still a political liberal, perpetuating what you claim to oppose.

  54. John Goss

    Left Unity (giggle) 1200 armchair revolutionaries who all hate each other
    http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/left-unity-conference.html

  55. Phil,

    No, I don’t think voting for the Green Party is going to bring about a revolution. Actually I don’t think anything I can do will bring about a revolution. Haven’t noticed you successfully starting one either. Given there is an election tomorrow, what I do think is voting Green is the best of the choices available to me on the ballot paper. I don’t think not voting is particularly constructive, though I respect those who do not wish to vote.

  56. “Haven’t noticed you successfully starting one either.”

    You are too hung up on the great man theory of history mate. A sure sign of self importance that you will have to escape before you will ever be a “political revolutionary”.

    Of course, do not vote tomorrow.

  57. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 May, 2014 - 5:19 pm

    Mary

    “> trolly Craig is writing about voting for MEPs.

    The article I linked to refers to those very representatives. Some of the mealy mouthed replies from the candidates to the question as to their stance on Israel/Palestine are amazing.

    Read the title and the content. “The EU policy of maintaining close relations with Israel as a supposed means of persuading it to end its violations of human rights and international law, and negotiate in good faith, has clearly failed.”
    ____________________

    Don’t take us for fools, Mary.

    The truth is that not a single new post from Craig can go by without you dragging Israel/Palestine into it sooner or later – usually sooner. And usually on the flimsiest of justifications.

    So let’s have less of your false indignation:

    “Are you taking turns today? I will not be cross questioned by the likes of you. Who the hell do you think you are?”

    You WILL be cross-questioned by me (and others) as long as there is good reason to cross-question you. And if you don’t like it, tough shit.

    ******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  58. “Last August the Telegraph published this article about the shooting of Kim Jong-un’s former girlfriend by firing squad. ”

    Which they qualified with “according to South Korean reports”.

    I’m a little surprised your enquiring mind hasn’t questioned why it’s taken so long for her to re-appear and whether or not it’s actually her or a look-a-like.

    I could support the Green Party if it weren’t for their enthusiasm for re-newable energy. Whilst this might provide a useful addition to conventional power stations it won’t ever replace them and certainly won’t fill the looming shortfall in generating capacity.

  59. Choice was made for me. Been living here for 18 years, can’t vote in national elections, but can in Euro and local. For some reason this time around I have to apply to the local Rathaus to get my voting card.noticed too late..Daughters came automatic & all I have to do is fill in a form, produce my passport and a copy of my residence permit and hey presto… Shut for lunch ! Not that there was much choice here either.The only anti EU parties here are the far right. FPO will probably get over 35% so some pals for Farage there.
    So, Non Voter.

  60. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    21 May, 2014 - 5:31 pm

    Phil

    I thought Craig’s rejoinder to you :

    “Haven’t noticed you successfully starting one either.”

    was rather good. If I judge from your peevish response, it obviously hit the bulls-eye.

    Off you go to man the barricades, Phil!

  61. No, I don’t think I can vote tomorrow. Green was the only option in that list, but Rupert Read seems naive and ideological, too likely to support war, and possibly too easily influenced, or rather, tricked. I’ll have to spoil my ballot just to show I wasn’t too apathetic to vote.

    There’s something very naff about this election, it really is the most pointless exercise in the failure of democracy I’ve ever seen. It’s like Eurovision or It’s a Knockout, it doesn’t seem to know what it’s meant to be testing. And a clear majority of the contesting parties are opposed to the existence of the election itself! They’ve managed to split their vote several ways; those who get elected can all quibble about how best to avoid participation in Europe!

    They tell us that voters are apathetic; at least us voters aren’t actively trying to dismantle our own platform. This really is surreal.

  62. “John Goss

    Left Unity (giggle) 1200 armchair revolutionaries who all hate each other”

    Bit mean-spirited Craig. All parties have to start somewhere, including the SNP, and having stood in Blackburn you know how hard it is to get grass roots support from scratch. Left Unity was only launched last year. It had its first conference on March 29.

    The Birmingham Branch is hardly likely to man the barricades since a good few are my age. With nearly 2000 members now I bet even the major parties are envious of that kind of growth. The purpose is not necessarily to stand candidates so much as support candidates of other parties with a left platform. So if the Green candidate has left credentials support her. I would certainly support Caroline Lucas. The Green Party has a bigger task than Left Unity because it contains believers in green policies across the full spectrum (right to left).

    In brief it is seeking to win back the ground negated by Labour when it became another neo-Con party.

  63. “I’m a little surprised your enquiring mind hasn’t questioned why it’s taken so long for her to re-appear and whether or not it’s actually her or a look-a-like.”

    It’s because I don’t trust our media. Neither do I support Kim Jong-un. There’s a journalist from Wolverhampton who believes every piece of shit he’s fed from the South Korean media channels. Korea was a country fucked up by the Yanks, like Vietnam and Ukraine, and I’m sure your enquiring mind could find a few more if you searched dilligently.

  64. You’ve all ignored an important option that will be right under your noses on election day.

    When the votes are tallied, you will have either voted for the establishment, voted for someone else or not voted which is like voting for the establishment.

    Why don’t you just vote for the least likely candidate. It doesn’t matter what they represent, at least you know they don’t ostensibly represent the establishment. And their failure to win obviates the moral question. PLUS it is TALLIED and those numbers count for something – ie the number of people who didn’t vote for the establishment!

  65. “It’s because I don’t trust our media.”

    Including reports in that media that this woman is alive after all?

    Can’t see how Korea was “fucked up” by the Yanks. If it hadn’t been for the UN intervention all of the peninsula would be under Kim Jong-unstable’s control and that gives a whole new definition to “fucked up”.

  66. “From what i remember in Norwich North Craig didn’t have any problem with the greens. It was with the BBC for allowing the Green candidate to take part in the televised debate, but not him, which was pretty unfair.”

    Not quiet so, Duncan. Rupert agreed that his fellow UCLU union member and rector of Dundee university at that time, was excluded from a debate on EDUCATION.
    Rupert has more muck sticking to him and some lurkers here know him to be a ruthless academic, philosophy or otherwise.

  67. Anon E Mouse

    21 May, 2014 - 6:30 pm

    One minor quibble:

    Make sure you vote: Show UKIP and the three faces of the Establishment party the red card. Give the Greens a chance.

  68. Scouse Billy

    21 May, 2014 - 6:46 pm

    Voting endorses this joke of illusory democracy.

    Tony Opmoc – spot on regarding the eugenicist agenda of the Greens.
    And yes, I’m very well too, thanks.
    Glad yours is still working too – you did make me lol.

    Cheers

  69. make sure that you spoil your ballot card, because all those who for weeks have been peddling their half truth and wishful thinking, will want to see all the spoiled votes.

    You won’t believe how eager they are to group around a table, with all election agents being called to peruse and candidates quivering for any vote that might be contrued and judged to be his.

    I hope that the spoiled votes have it tommorrow, especially in the Eastern region, could not care less who will sit down in Brussels, take the money and raise their hand to unelected Commissioners vested interest thoughts/policies.

    Greens are able to win by using the same trickery the other political parties use to bamboozle and turn off the wrong kind of voters, they do not need our special pleading.

    German Greens are breakfast to the established parties and the Green party of England Wales and Scotland, is learning from their EU me/assages.

  70. Spoiling your vote will simply marginalise any explanation of why the majors didn’t win it. There will be no reporting of your clever scribblings over the paper, nor the snot you snorted over it, nor the blanks where ticks, crosses or numbers should be. Your spoiled vote will simply be reported as “invalid” and people will be left to imagine why – stupid, illiterate, drunk, crazy, recalcitrant.. a lost opportunity.

  71. doug scorgie

    21 May, 2014 - 7:14 pm

    Mary
    21 May, 2014 – 1:03 pm

    “Is Palestine ‘solidarity’ going soft?”

    Sadly so Mary.

    Although there are many staunch supporters in the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign some of those at the top in the organisation seem to have softened their approach.

    I think that is due to infiltration by the pro-Israel Jews for Justice for Palestinians who are a group supporting a two-state solution (which is practically dead in the water) but who are also Zionist in that they want Israel to be recognised as a Jewish state; a state for Jews, run by Jews for the sake of Jews.

  72. I actually live in what was a highly political area – normally on a day like today – there would be loads of posters – stuff on poles – and stuff on windows…Today I looked – didn’t see any UKIP Posters. I didn’t see any conservative posters – except possibly a blue one – in a window – which said save our hospital. We live in a very “Liberal” Area. There were zero Labour Posters – or any evidence whatsoever Labour exists.

    Amongst a Very Large Number of Homes and Gardens – I only Saw One Obvious Political Poster It Was (LibDem)..

    So I Reckon The Turnout will Be about 30% and UKIP will get Well Over 50% of The Vote.

    Tony

  73. John Goss,

    Sorry. I don’t think there is any chance for the British Left until they get over the idea that they have to pay disproportionate respect to the ideas of ugly women with short hair in Andy Pandy suits.

  74. Craig @8.16p

    Hah! Now that’s the kind of commentary that I hope for but rarely see. Good stuff.

  75. Habbabreak. ON!

  76. The only way of creating a political earthquake tomorrow is by voting UKIP. If UKIP poll strongly enough it will be curtains for Miliband, Clegg and Cameron, and we might get some decent leaders.

  77. Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO

    21 May, 2014 - 10:19 pm

    Wouldn’t it be amusing if Diogenes found an honest entity in ugly women with short hair in Andy Pandy suits?

    Such persons are where you find them after all, even if, in the most unlikely of places.

  78. Craig,

    “ugly women with short hair in Andy Pandy suits”..

    Just admit it; you’ve applied for a top post in the Football Association..:-p

  79. Hope Not Hate out and about in Croydon:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoGgd-uIgAADR9w.jpg

    I’m sure the irony was entirely lost.

  80. Mary – BDS is NOT anti-Israel. In fact it legitimizes Israel.

    Now, if one reads BDS Declaration, he will find to his surprise that BDS is not against the Jewish occupation of 78% of the historic Palestine. BDS uses the word “occupation” for the West Bank and Gaza Strip but not even for East Jerusalem which all were occupied by Israel as result of its 1967 War of Aggression. The BDS demands from Israel; 1) Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the wall, 2) Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality (meaning Israel has the right to exist within pre-1967 borders); and 3) Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/04/28/bds-legitimizes-israel/

  81. O/T but given Salmond’s claim (also endorsed by Craig in several recent posts) that there is ‘massive opposition to Ukip in Scotland’, these findings from pollsters based in Craig’s alma mater provide interesting food for thought this election day-

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/seven-out-of-ten-scots-back-ukip-policy-on-immigration.

  82. “Sorry. I don’t think there is any chance for the British Left until they get over the idea that they have to pay disproportionate respect to the ideas of ugly women with short hair in Andy Pandy suits.”

    If this means not supporting what is called “positive discrimination” I agree. I noticed some positive discrimination at the conference and will continue to fight against it, by and large. My experience is that women are equally capable as men. However I do think, in general, they need more encouragement to get involved in politics, probably because they do not want to be labelled as “ugly women with short hair and Andy Pandy suits” or whatever other offensive term might be applied. At the conference there was a vocal woman, who spoke very eloquently about the need for proper health rights for the disabled. I could not see her, so I adjusted my position. She was in a wheelchair herself, and I thought good for her. But it was what she had to say that was more important than how she looked.

  83. ” ugly women with short hair in Andy Pandy suits.”

    Sexism Mr Murray? Surely not; unless you’re suggesting that good looking, long haired women in tight dresses make better politicians.

    http://lamutamu.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/slide_967_16216_large.jpg

    Goodnight.

  84. Prince Charles who just concluded a 4-day visit to part of Canada, made some real waves. Daily Mail claimed that Prince Charles in a “private” conversation with a Canadian Jewish volunteer “likened” Russian president Putin to Hitler.

    Commenting on the “smoking gun”, Dr. Daniel Pipes, on his blog called Prince Charles “a secret Muslim convert”.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/05/22/canadian-jew-prince-charles-likened-putin-to-hitler/

  85. ” Dr. Daniel Pipes, on his blog called Prince Charles “a secret Muslim convert”. ”

    Bearing in mind the attitude of Islam towards adulterers I’d have thoughtthat unlikely. Besides the comparison of Putin to Hitler is hardly new or even original.

  86. I have been a member of the Green Party ever since it was The Ecology Party. At one point I was quite active in my local party.

    But I agree with Mary – FFS, do not vote for Rupert Read. Look at his website, his blogs and his writings on Left Foot Forward and Liberal Conspiracy. Especially his naive views on Syria.

    I don’t trust him not to turn into another supporter of Western military intervention under the guise of “humanitarian” intervention, just like the appalling Joschka Fischer.

    Rupert Read is one of the reasons I have reduced my financial support for the Green Party in recent years. Another is I think they are at risk of becoming corrupted by power.

    But apart from Rupert Read, I endorse Craig’s advice to vote Green.

  87. @Kempe

    Can’t see how Korea was “fucked up” by the Yanks.

    ‘American planes dropped 635,000 tons of bombs on Korea — that is, essentially on North Korea –including 32,557 tons of napalm, compared to 503,000 tons of bombs dropped in the entire Pacific theatre of World War II.2 The number of Korean dead, injured or missing by war’s end approached three million, ten percent of the overall population. The majority of those killed were in the North, which had half of the population of the South; although the DPRK does not have official figures, possibly twelve to fifteen percent of the population was killed in the war, a figure close to or surpassing the proportion of Soviet citizens killed in World War II.’

    http://www.japanfocus.org/-charles_k_-armstrong/3460

    Do you seriously not consider that an example of a nation being ‘fucked up’ by another?

  88. https://s.bsd.net/38degrees/main/page/-/images/eu-graphic-v2.png

    Sent from 38 Degrees last night.

    In under 12 hours polling stations across the UK will open for the European election. But it’s really hard to cut through the party political bickering to get to the real facts about where the parties stand on actual issues!

    No matter what your politics are – the European election gives us a chance to spread the news on where political parties stand on the issues 38 Degrees members care about. [1]

    What will the Tories or Labour do in the EU to crack down on tax dodging? What will the Lib Dems do to protect our bees? Where do the Greens stand on international trade deals like TTIP? This week, thousands of 38 Degrees members have pulled together to make scorecards which rank where the parties stand on the issues we all care about. [2]

    Please have a look at the results below. All political parties standing in the EU election were asked to respond to the issues 38 Degrees members prioritised as the most important. Not all of them responded. [3] But the ones that did then had their answers rated out of 5 by thousands of us. And to help make sure it was impartial, the political parties’ names weren’t linked to any of their answers. So, 38 Degrees members didn’t know who they were scoring.

    Graphic showing the ratings of the parties on the link at the top.

    Can you share the results with your friends and family? It’ll help them cast their votes based on the issues – not on party politics.

    Only 35% of the UK electorate voted in the 2009 European election. [4] But groups like 38 Degrees prove that we’re not apathetic and we do care about the issues that affect us all. So hopefully these results will help lots more people cast their vote on the issues, not on personalities.

    If you’re still unsure who to vote for, you can also decide to spoil your ballot paper – it shows that people do care, but don’t agree with the choices on the ballot. [5]

    And remember, you might need your umbrella to get to the polling station tomorrow.

    Thanks for everything you do,

    Megan, James, Becky, Maddy & the 38 Degrees team

    PS: If you’d like a bit more information about the European election – whether that’s what voting system it uses, what the parties said in full, or other tools you can use to match your views with the parties, there are a bunch of helpful links in the notes. [6]

    NOTES
    [1] Your Medway: European Election: Why you should vote on May 22
    http://www.yourmedway.co.uk/news/european_elections_why_you_should_vote_on_may_22_1_3541624
    [2] 38 Degrees: European Election Issues Poll:
    http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2014/05/16/european-election-issues-poll/
    [3] The questions were sent to all parties standing in the EU election for which contact details could be found, in order to represent as many parties as possible whatever their size.

    The parties that responded with answers that met the guidelines sent are: the Animal Welfare Party, the Christian People’s Alliance, the Conservative Party, the European People’s Party, the Green Party, the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, the National Health Action Party, the Pirate Party UK, and the Yorkshire First party. UKIP unfortunately were the only party standing in every region that didn’t respond to the questions, which is why they aren’t shown on this card.

    The following parties were messaged through their websites, asking for an email address to send the questions to, but they did not respond: We Demand A Referendum Now, Traditional Unionist Voice, The Socialist Party of Great Britain, National Liberal Party – True Liberalism and the English Democrats.

    The Your Voice party did not have an email address on their site, or a contact box to ask for an email address. The Roman Party .ave did not have a site or any way of contacting them.

    All other parties standing in any region received, at the very least, an email asking for responses to the questions.
    [4] UK Political Info: European Parliament election turnout 1979 – 2009:
    http://www.ukpolitical.info/european-parliament-election-turnout.htm
    [5] Guardian: Spoiling your ballot: the third way:
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/nov/05/police-and-crime-commissioners-police-spoilt-ballot-paper-north-yorkshire
    [6] For more information about the EU election itself, including why the voting system used is fairer than in the general election you can read this blog:
    38 Degrees: EU election how does it all work:
    http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2014/05/21/eu-elections-how-does-it-all-work/

    And to read the parties statements in full, you can go here:
    38 Degrees: Where UK parties stand on issues important to 38 Degrees:
    http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2014/05/21/where-uk-political-parties-stand-on-issues-important-to-38-degrees/

  89. I am in the mood for images today. I think they have more impact than all the words.

    Here’s one for Michelle.

    http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/26/d3/80/00/bnioo3bimaawyk0.si.png

    ~~~

    I trust work at RAF Croughton for the Americans is going on apace.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/washington-spends-200m-creating-intelligence-hub-in-britain-9391406.html

    and that the drone operators at RAF are honing up their skills with the joysticks.

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/rpas.cfm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Waddington

  90. @Kempe

    “Can’t see how Korea was “fucked up” by the Yanks.”

    Before the Korean War and all the bombing and mayhem the country was artificially divided by the 38th Parallel separating families, friends and cultural ties

    This from Wikipedia

    “After the surrender of Japan in August 1945, the 38th parallel was established as the boundary by Dean Rusk and Charles Bonesteel of the U.S. State Department – War – Navy Coordinating Committee in Washington, D.C. during the night of the 10th of August 1945, four days before the liberation of Korea.”

    Some liberation! But that’s what the Yanks do! They liberate other countries like they did with Iraq, Libya, Bosnia, Afghanistan and now Ukraine! It leaves countries fucked up for decades.

  91. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 May, 2014 - 9:04 am

    Kempe. (The Jen Psaki of these threads)

    Korea not fucked up by the US?

    Aside from their massive bombing of Koreans in their own land the US also managed to kill 20,000 Koreans in Hiroshima, about 1 in 5 of the victims.

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/japan/130805/hiroshima-forgotten-victims-korean-survivors

  92. Mary

    Thanks for posting the 38 degrees survey, the results of which were close to what I got when I filled in individually the questions on the VoteMatch website. I share Craig’s move to Green.

  93. “Some liberation! But that’s what the Yanks do! They liberate other countries like they did with Iraq, Libya, Bosnia, Afghanistan and now Ukraine! It leaves countries fucked up for decades.”

    Be fair now, John.

    The Americans are fucking up their own country too.

    They’re equal opportunity fucker ups these yanks.

  94. Up here in Scotland the Greens have had a very good referendum campaign and seen their support rise from 7% to 10% by latest polling. I had been considering giving them a second preference vote in the next Holyrood elections as I’d be fairly comfortable with an SNP/Green coalition, but I’m put off by the occasionally erratic behaviour of individuals within the party – sounds as if the English experience is a bit similar.

    It may be down to inexperience or political naivety, in which case I suppose the only cure is to elect them and hope they sort themselves out. That’s what we did with the SNP, after all.

    With those reservations, Green probably best choice for those of you in the south with a progressive turn of mind.

  95. “Spoiling your vote will simply marginalise any explanation of why the majors didn’t win it. There will be no reporting of your clever scribblings over the paper, nor the snot you snorted over it, nor the blanks where ticks, crosses or numbers should be. Your spoiled vote will simply be reported as “invalid” and people will be left to imagine why – stupid, illiterate, drunk, crazy, recalcitrant.. a lost opportunity.”

    Jemand, voting will only perpetuate incompetence, to for one moment think that you will get a better option or be regarded as a voter that matters as much as any other, is wishfull thinking/asking for more of the same. Sadly I’m not enough of a Bhuddist/masochist to wrest a smile, walk up to the booth and make/take my cross.
    One day your satisfaction will be disturbed and overwhelmed by a majority of disatisfied and you will demand that your pro party political point of view is heard, most likely to be your last argument, swallowed in a sea of heard it all before.

    Then you might have to grapple with random selection of reps in future, rather than personal choice and manipulation of the system.

    And what will your voting do? apart from legitamising a political oligarchy that has no mandate for this pre chewed slate of candidates, whether its this or other elections.
    Any political party that care’s would have tried to quell this level of disatisfaction to increase their legitimacy a long time ago, not this lot, instead they try and manipulate the voting process, offering us the worst possible option of all, AV, in a take it or leave it referendum rather than a choice of systems.

    Nothing short of a tax boycott can bring these criminals to justice. And some more, justice not forgiving, reparations for ills done and confiscation of assets, negating of all privatisation legislation and contracts, a wholesale reform by the concerned, not those who define concern for their own mettle.

    here is a sentence for you, should you find it hard to go against your genetically imprinted party political allegiances.

    ” who has given you self serving, (scum sucking, optional political oligarchs a mandate to present us with this pre chewed candidates slate, when you only represent a minority?”

  96. Habbabkuk (La vita è bel
    la) !
    21 May, 2014 – 3:20 pm

    To Mary:

    “I shall remind people that you deny the right of Israel to exist and that you are anti-Jewish. That’s fair, isn’t it?”

    Hasbara shit!

    We know you are an anti-Semitic (i.e. anti-Palestinian) racist Habbabkuk.

    Being a Zionist is nothing to be proud of no matter who endorses it. (e.g. Cameron; Blair; Miliband; Netanyahu et al)

    The Zionists days are numbered.

    ללכת למשוך את איבר המין שלך

  97. Craig
    21 May, 2014 – 5:02 pm

    “Left Unity (giggle) 1200 armchair revolutionaries who all hate each other”

    http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/left-unity-conference.html

    I’d take what Tony Greenstein says with a pinch of salt.

    He describes himself as a socialist but seems to spend much of his time knocking the left.

    I met him at a Palestinian Solidarity Campaign meeting some years back and he disrupted the whole meeting because someone on the committee was too left wing for his liking.

  98. Doug

    Oh, I am not basing myself on Greenstein in the least. Just an amusing link.

    We are seeing massive voter disillusion with the mainstream parties. the left in the UK is incapable of taking any advantage – because they are utterly useless and almost incredibly stupid.

    When there were chances of real breakthroughs for the left – first Tommy Sheridan in Scotland and then the WikiLeaks phenomenon – the left allowed both to be destroyed by the entirely self-regarding obsessions of bitter sex-negative feminists.

  99. Ba'al Zevul (Demonetiser)

    22 May, 2014 - 12:22 pm

    ” Dr. Daniel Pipes, on his blog called Prince Charles “a secret Muslim convert”. ”

    A ringing endorsement of Charlie’s bona fides, then.

    Pipes is NOT a secret Jewish convert, btw. He was born into the faith. And is a famous Islamophobe who supports Israel as if it were his own country. Perhaps it is…

    Lulz from Danny here –

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/12/daniel-pipes-unhealthy-obsession-with-the-hijab/

  100. This short video exposes the Farage manipulation of MSM. It makes the point that the ‘half-human face of racism’ is never off the box.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbiTdD1_S0I#t=29

  101. I realise from the Greenstein article that this conference didn’t get around to discussing tactics etc, but they’ll never get anywhere unless they base themselves in local communities, providing services and support with local people’s problems.

    Advice centres, legal and financial, credit unions, food banks etc in every target area. People get to know you personally as a organisation that’s helped them and their neighbours, they’ll vote for you.

    There’s never a shortage of professional people in these leftist groupings, so shouldn’t be a problem finding experts who can recruit similar folk locally.

    So build your cadre, send them into the field and go forth and multiply.

    And you’re looking at doing that daily and consistently for at least two elections.

    They’ll never get anywhere just selling newspapers, holding meetings, the odd bit of media or even knocking on doors.

    Sure, that’s great once you’ve got the practical base covered, but without that they’ll never go anywhere.

    The biggest problem with these leftists is that they’re much too abstract and intellectual and I suspect that many of them are much too fond of talking about ideas than doing anything practical.

  102. Sofia Kibo Noh

    22 May, 2014 - 12:54 pm

    !!! NEW DEMOSHAM® !!!

    Do you have problems with troublesome plebs?

    Then Vote Today.

    Keep our dear rulers secure behind NEW DEMOSHAM®’s protective membrane.

    Hurry now for a chance to win your very own free Home-lobotomy kit.

  103. Ba'al Zevul (Demonetiser)

    22 May, 2014 - 1:04 pm

    Herbie, yes. That’s (whisper it) the IRA/Taleban model. Though hopefully without the AK47’s. Supply what the state can’t supply. Help.

  104. Just cast my vote. Noticed the razor sharp fold in the ballot paper obscured the last party – UKIP – from view. There was no logical reason why the fold should have been in that place.

    Final polls all have UKIP in front with Lib Dems and Green battling it out for the wooden spoon. If Farage pulls it off having endured a relentless smear campaign from the entire British media for months on end then it will have to rank as one of the greatest political achievements of modern times. I have to give it to him – he has shown a degree of energy and perseverance that can only come from one with absolute belief and conviction. None of the media-trained clowns of the main parties could have given what Farage has. If he can survive the Labour postal vote and the highly suspect three-day count then they will have been well and truly rumbled.

  105. Not Chunky Mark the taxi driver but Chuck Windsor the taxi driver!

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/may/21/steve-bell-cartoon-prince-charles-vladimir-putin-adolf-hitler

    Some good comments below.

  106. doug scorgie

    22 May, 2014 - 1:12 pm

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  107. Ba’al

    It was the British Labour Party model too, although they had the advantage that the Capitalists rather nicely concentrated the peeps for them.

    So difficult when they were spread out over the land.

    The Scots were quite good at it too.

  108. “The biggest problem with these leftists is that they’re much too abstract and intellectual and I suspect that many of them are much too fond of talking about ideas than doing anything practical.”

    This is almost true. The truth is many of them fancy themselves as intellectuals and have practically no clue about how to run anything.

    I almost feel sorry for you in a way, Herbie. Another election comes and passes and still the far left don’t even register with the electorate. Really you should change tactics and just cancel democracy or something because you ain’t going anywhere.

  109. “Just cast my vote. Noticed the razor sharp fold in the ballot paper obscured the last party – UKIP – from view. There was no logical reason why the fold should have been in that place.”

    First conspiracy theory of the day.

    “If he can survive the Labour postal vote and the highly suspect three-day count”

    And an encore.

    Bravo!

  110. ” American planes dropped 635,000 tons of bombs on Korea ”

    Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on them but they seemed to have recovered.

    Towards the end of WW2 the Allies could not agree on who would take control of Korea once the Japanese had been removed. As a compromise the country was divided into two temporary areas of administration, the USSR taking the north and the USA the South, in the same way that Germany was divided into four administrative zones post war. As in Germany the USSR refused to hold the free elections previously agreed to that would’ve started the process of re-unification. It was an invasion by the North in 1950 that started the Korean War.

  111. “the entirely self-regarding obsessions of bitter sex-negative feminists.”

    Inaccurate and unworthy, Craig. I’m quite sure Sheridan was targeted by the ‘security’ services but by hell did he make it easy for them, given his personal pastimes. He ignored the verbal and written advice of a friend (a retired QC, no names, no pack drill) who told him to ignore the allegations. Even if you win, you’ll lose, was the gist of that (prophetic) advice. But instead of waving it all away as prurient curiosity about his private life, Tommy broke up a nascent socialist grouping in Scotland by attempting to coerce his ‘comrades’ (his preferred term) to lie for him. Some did, others would not. Some of those who told the truth were women, and some who supported the lie were women too. Make of that what you will.

    Still, Tommy Sheridan is busting a gut right now campaigning for Scottish independence. It might be a penance of some kind, or an attempt at political rehabilitation, but he is effective in a constituency that the SNP cannot easily reach. We will get a Yes in September, and he will have been one of its authors.

    On Assange, I’m pretty confident that the women most intimately concerned are trying to please someone other than themselves, as you yourself have from time to time pointed out. That’s hardly traditional feminist behaviour.

  112. Labour postal vote rigging is pretty well in the realms of conspiracy Fact, Herbie.

    Re my other two observations – there remains no logical reason why the fold should be made where it is other than to obscure the UKIP option.

    And yes, I do find a three-day count suspect considering 650 constituencies are counted overnnight and the results made available by the early hours following a GE.

  113. Herbie, I’m sorry but I can’t pass the opportunity:

    Are you seriously suggesting that there has NEVER been a conspiracy and that there has NEVER been any electoral fraud in the UK?

  114. Labour postal vote rigging

    Plenty of material.

  115. Anon

    “And yes, I do find a three-day count suspect considering 650 constituencies are counted overnnight and the results made available by the early hours following a GE.”

    I think that’s just an EU thing. All the results have to be announced at the same time, and there’s some rather large countries in our wonderful empire.

  116. What’s been notable over the past few months of media smears against UKIP is the near total absence of any argument as to why it is in Britain’s interests to remain in the EU. To give Farage his due, he has tirelessly argued for why it is not in our interests, but his opponents – ie the entire media and political class – have chosen to play the man rather than the ball. I wonder why that is?

    I therefore ask, can anyone, especially Craig if he’s reading, put forward a solid case for why Britain should remain in the EU?

    NB: Childish cartoons such as the above posted by John Goss are no substitute for a reasoned argument.

  117. Anon

    There’s plenty of fraud in the UK, voting and much else, but your examples aren’t it.

  118. Herbie, thanks. Do you happen to know where the votes are being counted?

  119. Herbie

    “There’s plenty of fraud in the UK, voting and much else, but your examples aren’t it.”

    Herbie, yes I am sure you can regale me with the horrors of capitalism for hours on end but we are talking voting fraud here.

  120. Anon

    Everyone knows there’s voting fraud in the UK. It’s well documented. There’s voting fraud nearly everywhere.

    I’m disputing your funnily folded paper and length of count conspiracies, which are frankly, bollocks.

  121. Anon, “I have to give it to him – he has shown a degree of energy and perseverance that can only come from one with absolute belief and conviction. None of the media-trained clowns of the main parties could have given what Farage has. If he can survive the Labour postal vote and the highly suspect three-day count then they will have been well and truly rumbled.”

    Yes he has absolute belief and conviction of all his lies about immigrants. I hate racists, from people like Farage who tries to give racism a human face, to people like you, who vote for his peculiar type of racism. Farage used to call people from the West Indies niggers but seems to have stopped doing that in recent years. I too have just voted. There was no Green candidate at local level. What choice is there? Labour, Tory, UKIP, LibDem. I voted for Buchanan. And Green for the European election. I noticed that UKIP has split its name into two words UK IP presumably for when Scotland leaves the Union. Then it will probably be launched as the Independence Party to try and fool people into believing that it is not what it is.

  122. https://www.google.co.uk/search?redir_esc=&client=ms-android-samsung&hl=en-GB&safe=images&oe=utf-8&q=ukip%20paper%20ballot%20folded&source=android-browser-type&qsubts=1400764638569

    Looks like it’s not just me who has noticed the oddly placed fold. Electoral Commision now investigating the matter.

  123. John Goss

    I’m sure you know a thing or two about racism what with the garbage you post about the Joos all day long, but I don’t believe Farage is a racist.

    “Farage used to call people from the West Indies niggers but seems to have stopped doing that in recent years”

    I hadn’t heard this. Could you provide some evidence for the claim?

  124. Herbie

    “Everyone knows there’s voting fraud in the UK. It’s well documented.”

    But you were quick to call me a conspiracy theorist when I mentioned Labour postal vote fraud.

  125. John Goss

    “I noticed that UKIP has split its name into two words UK IP”

    That’s to make space for the post in the middle of the sign.

  126. Britain should be part of the EU because it is part of Europe, earns some 689plus billions per annum in the EU. Despite that, any of the countries who appoint Commissioners is instrumental in undermining democracy within the EU, as their unelected agendas and vested interest clients are instrumental for the EU’s policies as carried out.

    The cabal of well paid hand raisers has no powers to change this, sadly and the accountants cowtow to those who let them play with numbers.
    Just spoiled my ballot, it feels better than voting for the minority party oligarchs.

  127. The Gray family presumably will have nothing to do with the EU elections. What a travesty A) The ECHR for not allowing the extradition of Ubani and B) ‘Take Care Now’ for bringing him in to work here as an out-of-hours doctor.
    >
    Dr Daniel Ubani: No UK extradition over patient death
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-27518271
    >
    ‘Take Care Now (TCN) has been taken over by Harmoni and is now trading as Suffolk Integrated Healthcare.
    Harmoni is the UK’s leading provider of primary care services, looking after over 8 million patients across the country.’
    http://www.takecarenow.co.uk/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Care_Now
    >
    In November we acquire healthcare provider, Harmoni, in a move designed to improve unscheduled NHS care and reduce waiting times, as well as pressure on NHS acute services.
    http://www.careuk.com/who-are-we/our-history
    >
    Who is Care UK?

    ‘And Care UK has contracts worth another £102.6million. Its chairman John Nash was made a peer after boosting Tory coffers by £247,250.’
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fury-tory-party-donors-handed-3123469

  128. “John Goss

    I’m sure you know a thing or two about racism what with the garbage you post about the Joos all day long, but I don’t believe Farage is a racist.

    “Farage used to call people from the West Indies niggers but seems to have stopped doing that in recent years”

    I hadn’t heard this. Could you provide some evidence for the claim?”

    Try this link Anon from The Guardian.

    “Whatever the explanation, the fact that Farage met Deavin after the BNP man’s expulsion was enough to alarm some UKIP members – especially as Farage, who earns his living as a City commodity-broker, is a man who often used words such as “nigger” and “nig-nog” in the pub after committee meetings.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/oct/13/race.world

    Now I’ve provided a link it is time for you to apologise for calling me a racist or find the evidence to prove your claim. You’re like Farage if you have no facts you make them up, like he did with the grossly exaggerated predictions of Romanian immigrants to the UK. So what’s your answer?

  129. Is there a new Anon posting here (different avatar to previous of that name) or is this Mk3, Mk4 etc. of the original?

  130. “you post about the Joos all day”

    KLAXON: Only Zionist trolls spell ‘Jews’ that way.

  131. @Kempe

    ‘Japan had two atomic bombs dropped on them but they seemed to have recovered.’

    Are you really this callous, or are you just trying to wind people up?

  132. John Goss

    “Farage used to call people from the West Indies niggers but seems to have stopped doing that in recent years”

    I now understand what you are referring to. The alleged incident in which Farage was alleged to been overheard saying “We will never win the nigger vote”. Alleged to have been overheard by one Professor Alan Sked, the man who never misses an opportunity to smear the party he helped found. It wouldn’t stand up in court.

  133. “Britain should be part of the EU because it is part of Europe”

    You don’t make a very convincing case, Nevermind. And Britain is quite capable of earning money outside the EU.

  134. Ba'al Zevul (Demonetiser)

    22 May, 2014 - 3:05 pm

    If UKIP supporters are defeated by unfolding a piece of paper, that’s only to be expected, I guess.

  135. No I think I’ll vote for the Green lizard after all.

  136. Building lots of new houses on green fields is not very green,is it?

  137. It’s cold and wet in the Highlands and a very low turnout.

    Scotland has 6 seats in the European Parliament. The 2009 result was …

    2 x SNP (29.1%)
    2 x Labour (20.8%)
    1 x Conservative (16.8%)
    1 x Liberal (11.5%)

    The Conservatives and Liberals will lose support which will mostly be transferred to SNP and UKIP. Therefore the very likely result is ….

    EITHER
    2 x SNP
    2 x Labour
    1 x Conservative
    1 x UKIP

    OR
    3 x SNP
    2 x Labour
    1 x Conservative

    Scots who haven’t voted/decided yet might like to consider that the low turnout increases the power of their ‘X’ to decide between the above scenarios.

  138. It wouldn’t stand up in court because Farage would not go to court. He threatened to sue but Sked says, reported only a couple of days ago, but he never did.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2632201/Farage-used-N-word-dismiss-black-vote-New-race-row-hits-Ukip-claims-founder.html

    So where is your evidence of my racism?

    Also I think you’re wrong about the fold in the ballot paper. I could quite clearly see UK IP down the bottom, where it should be. Are there any differences from region to region. It is probably just a coincidence that Farage is using as an excuse.

  139. Here’s another for ‘Anon’.

    Written by Aaronovitch about Peres who is leaving office in July. Good riddance.

    An ode to Shimon.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1400768542.html

    ~~

    Should we open a book on the identity of ‘Anon’? Perhaps a sweepstake instead.

  140. ” Are you really this callous, or are you just trying to wind people up? ”

    Just pointing out that it didn’t hinder Japan’s pst war economic and political development and result it in being “fucked up” eighty years later.

  141. Should we open a book on the identity of ‘Anon’?

    Nigel Farage?

  142. In small part of the Borders, confusion, runnning a local council bye-election for a deceased (Tory) councillor’s seat on the same day, though probably still the wisest most economical way to do it, result one ballot paper to be marked with an X and another to be be marked numerically 1, [2], [3 …]. I do hope in the council election, ballots marked with a solitary X will be counted as a single number 1, as despite the (reportedly patchy) efforts of polling station staff to explain and point this out and keeping the different polls physically apart, with separation, different booths, boxes etc for the different ballots, there will be and has been – particularly amongst the elderly – a certain amount of confusion.

    Looks like this ‘Anon’ is the once-banned Anon, we all know and loathe. Zionist online storm-trooper tools are supporting the UKIP extremists -how surprising, plus a conspiracy, Farage has been mugged by the media; the poor dear, not Farage: Anon, she/he/it is raving as usual and that claim is as improbable as it is untrue. Who’d have thought those ante-deluvian throwback elements of studied hate would have common ground? Most of us probably, and any with knowledge of Zionism’s history knows absolutely it nurtures and lies with the foulest of partners. But UKIPs racist and supremacist tones though almost similar and as abhorrent, are nothing to the unmitigated evils that define Zionism.

  143. ‘Just spoiled my ballot, it feels better …….’

    I did the same Nevermind. With the stubby little pencil that needed sharpening which was tied to a bit of string, I put a cross against every one of the 17 names and across the middle of the paper wrote ‘Democracy in the UK and in the EU is illusory’.

    The whole set up including the battered tin ballot box looked as if they had come from the set of ‘Dad’s Army’ and were probably of that vintage.

  144. Mary 22 May, 2014 – 6:02 pm

    “With the stubby little pencil that needed sharpening which was tied to a bit of string, I put a cross against every one of the 17 names and across the middle of the paper wrote ‘Democracy in the UK and in the EU is illusory’.”

    I remember doing something similar in the General Election a few years ago. There were no other voters in our village hall at the time and the prolonged sound of my pencil scratching was amplified and echoed in the otherwise silent room. I was greeted by hostile and suspicious glares from the two supervisors when I left the booth. I responded by giving them a cheery smile and rubbing my hands together to signify a job well done.

  145. Yes A Node. A dispiriting experience. Do they do that on purpose to diminish us even more?

    Earlier this year Tory controlled Surrey County Council closed fire stations and cut the number of crews. (Same as Boris did in London).
    http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/fire-union-gears-up-legal-6697366

    Yet the councillors led by the chief trougher David Hodge have voted themselves large increases in their allowances. This is in addition to employing side kicks to help them such is their workload, not!

    County council in Private Eye’s ‘Rotten Boroughs’ over pay rises
    May 16, 2014
    “Despite having to find savings of £72m this year, county councillors vote themselves and their leaders a big fat pay increase,” the satirical news magazine said
    http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/surrey-county-council-pay-rises-7132319

    How do the firemen feel reading about that greedy behaviour?. They are such willing and brave horses and just one of them is equal to ten of the troughers at County Hall. Apart from their duties, they have car washing days for charity. They also did sterling work in the Surrey floods.

    What a bunch! Tory dominated with a smattering of LDs and a few UKIPs have crept in I see.
    http://mycouncil.surreycc.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=ALPHA&VW=LIST&PIC=0

  146. I have voted ‘Green’ in the past and I know that my mother toyed with the idea of doing so this time. But I just want to stick two fingers up at the two-and-a-half main parties, the Beeb, David Aaronovich, Paxman, David Bumblebee and every other useless, cosseted, parasitic tosser who has been telling me what to think for as long as I can remember. U.K.I.P. does that and they got my vote.

  147. Kempe – adulterers are condemned by Judaism and Christianity before Islam. However, the earlier fiths had different definition of adultery. For example, in Judaism, adultery means having sex with a Jewish married women – the rest of all sex out of marriage is kosher.

    Both Jesus and St. Paul never married because they both believed a woman is born in sin.

    In Islam every act of sex is adultery – even among lesbians and gays.

    Rabbi Baruch Efrati, a teacher at Yishva community school in the West Bank, believes Jews around the world should be happy at turning Europe into a Muslim majority region.

    “With the help of G-d, the Gentile (non-Jewish) will adopt a healthier life with a lot of modesty and integrity, and not like the hypocritical Christianity which appears pure but is fundamentally corrupt,”said rabbi – reported by Israeli daily YNet News on November 11, 2012.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/01/02/rabbi-islamization-of-europe-is-good-for-jews/

  148. How long do we have to wait to find out that your spoiled votes brought the establishment crashing down?

  149. Who cares Jemand, you obviously are thriving under this kind of regime, so, rejoice.

  150. Clearly you don’t care enough to even take responsibility for your own vote, Nevermind, whatever little value that it has. Is it the sort of advice you give to voters in the electorates in which you present yourself as a candidate? To spoil their votes? Not much of an example to voters from someone aspiring to lead. It’s like cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Is that your official policy on democratic reform?

    And do you really believe I am thriving where I am, Nevermind? Where is my flashy car and stately home?

    You are way too far gone to appreciate my agreement with this fellow on the subject of the EU and its parliamentary elections. But others might.

    Enjoy!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV3nOAg87R8

  151. Jemand,
    In the UK, spoiling your vote is an accepted method of expressing disapproval of your ‘democratic’ choices.
    Spoiled votes are counted and the total announced by the presiding officer along with the candidates results. If enough people spoiled their votes instead of not voting, it would send a clear political message.

    “The validity of the election may be questioned if there is an unusually high proportion of spoilt votes. However, in countries such as the UK where spoilt ballots are counted, some voters deliberately spoil their ballot paper to show disapproval of the candidates available whilst still taking part in the electoral process.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoilt_vote

  152. It’s looking very much like UK IP is going to steal a lot of Tory votes at local levels. That’s going to give Labour a vast overall success. When the General Election comes they will all go back to the Tories, of the country will have an opposition of fascists. Of course the Tories have always had a majority of fascists but there are good people in teh Conservative Party too.

  153. A Node, but does it explain the reason for spoiling? Or validate the spoiling?

    A spoiled vote is converted and aggregrated with all the other spoiled votes into a dumb statistic which then depends on gibbering tv political analcysts to interpret the meaning. Conclusion – “Some people were unhappy with the uninspiring candidates in this election but that’s always been the case and at the end of the day, you can’t please everyone”.

    I don’t see that as a driver for change.

  154. Jemand,

    If our democratic system was sensitive enough to the needs of disenfranchised voters to include a method whereby we could criticize the system itself, we probably wouldn’t need to complain in the first place :)

    In the UK, democracy was introduced without a revolution. We learn in school that our ruling classes volunteered to hand over to us serfs the power to choose how we should be governed. Hmmmm. No way. We had democracy imposed upon us because it is an easy way to control the masses – we have only the illusion of choice because those same ruling classes choose our choices. And they don’t include a choice that says “I see through the illusion”.

    Protesting about the system is largely futile. If there was an effective way (short of armed revolution), they’d change the law to remove it. But for the time being, in the UK spoiled ballot papers are counted and published. Imagine the shockwave if a majority of ballot papers were spoiled. Sure it is a blunt instrument of protest, sure the message will be deliberately misinterpreted and watered down, but in the absence of the Monster Raving Loony Party, it’s often the sanest choice available in this country.

    Is your method any more effective? If a huge proportion of the electorate took your advice and voted for the least likely candidate, none of them would be registered as protest votes and indeed the entire movement could be dismissed as proof of the diversity of the great voting public and confirmation that democracy works.

    Anyway, I’ve explained above my thinking on the matter. If you don’t agree with any of it, please mark your reply “none of the above.”

  155. As someone earlier said>

    Only the trolls spell it as ‘Jooooooos’

    Hi Kempe,Res Diss,Anon,Habbabkuk,Jemand et al.

    If you cant win an argument then call everyone else anti-Semites right?

    Page 1 of the intellectually shallow,flawed and deeply desperate hasbara manual.

    Which is truly self-serving and bears no relation to Truth…just an excuse for losers to defend the indefensible.

    The type of approach that if you picked up a girl they were trying to chat up in a bar and she ended up leaving with you they’d scream ‘Rapist! at you,bereft of a more honest discussion or admission.

    Flawed shallow fakes.

  156. Ba'al Zevul (Going Postal)

    23 May, 2014 - 9:43 am

    I see this thread has been linked on Read’s blog. Readers of which may be amused to learn, that of the 13 post-war UK Prime Ministers, only 4 didn’t go to Oxford. (Heath and Macmillan went to Balliol, like Read).

    The non-Oxfordians were Gordon Brown (Edinburgh), Jim Callaghan (was qualified to go but couldn’t afford to), John Major (6 O-levels and a correspondence banking course), and Winston Churchill (terrible at school, got into Sandhurst after three attempts).

    Democracy in action!

  157. A Node, maybe “some of the above”. But your method is just one of several and I think it is a protest with no explanation. Like waving a blank sign at a rally or shouting “What do we want? SOMETHING! When do we want it? NOW!”

    My method depends on how the system works, including whether it is first past the post, there is an instant runoff or multiple preferences etc. It also depends on whether voting is compulsory. All of these factor into which method can be best exploited for protest.

    Your system cannot work unless people are disatisfied for more or less the same reason. How is a democracy supposed to work other than by representing the majority view? By definition, it deprecates all minority views except for those that can be accomodated with the consent of the majority. In other words, you can’t please everyone because some things cannot be reconciled, eg. pro-nuclear vs anti-nuclear.

    So if all of you have different views on why the system is inadequate, what change will be sufficient to simultaneously satisfy you all?

  158. “Clearly you don’t care enough to even take responsibility for your own vote, Nevermind, whatever little value that it has. Is it the sort of advice you give to voters in the electorates in which you present yourself as a candidate? To spoil their votes? Not much of an example to voters from someone aspiring to lead. It’s like cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Is that your official policy on democratic reform?”

    Thats right Jemand, your powers of recollection seem boundless. The disillusionment with the corrupt British voting system that costs shitload of pounds and is rigged by pre chewed candidates list,postal voting fraud, just as all the other elections, will eventually turn off the most principled.

    In order to keep sane I have spoiled my ballot, big deal, so has most of my family, now there’s a coincidence, and many friends I know. Why don’t you wait for the figures to emerge, being so eager to castigate from your rocking horse, rather than come up with some pathetic slur here.

    Have you got a blog to carry on with such debate and are you ate it? you’ve got my permission to ripp me to p[ieces there if you like. You will not get another response to your utter twaddle to me here.

  159. Jives, imbeciles have no right to use the word “intellectual”. So, pipe down.

  160. Ba'al Zevul (Going Postal)

    23 May, 2014 - 10:08 am

    I committed the ultimate sin. I just couldn’t be arsed, in the end. I’ve always voted before, but this isn’t my system any more, if it ever was. If you want me to vote, show me something worth walking fifty yards and making a mark for. Something with the inspirational quality, say, of a BOGOF offer on Weetabix at the local store?

    Nevermind’s option is better – at least spoiled votes are recorded. But until very much larger numbers of spoiled votes are registered, it will be possible to sweep them under the carpet. And that needs campaigning.

    Rupert- if you’re reading this –

    4.003 Most of the propositions and questions to be found in philosophical works are not false but nonsensical. Consequently we cannot give any answer to questions of this kind, but can only point out that they are nonsensical. Most of the propositions and questions of philosophers arise from our failure to understand the logic of our language. (They belong to the same class as the question whether the good is more or less identical than the beautiful.) And it is not surprising that the deepest problems are in fact not problems at all.

    Wittgenstein : Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus.

  161. Nevermind, if the system of voting in the UK keeps embittered old wolverines like you out of government, then maybe it is not all bad – however bad it certainly is.

    Having an exchange with you and many others on this blog is like having a conversation with a schizophrenic who looks toward an invisible person standing next to me where they imagine I am. It is bizarre. I say green and you hear blue. I say one plus one does not equal three and you will say “that’s because it equals two, you numericist bastard”. I say Stalin was a monster and you will say “proves you to be a Hitler loving Nazi”.

    Do you see the problem?

    In these short little exchanges, you see things you don’t like and fill in all the blanks with the worst possible imaginary details. You are exactly that kind of person who you, yourself, claim to despise. Ignorant, aggressive, abusive, insulting, arrogant, controlling, bombastic, … and perhaps the very worst is you are delusional by believing that you are the exact opposite of those things.

    Self-criticism is an essential part of a healthy personality, Nevermind. I suggest you try it.

  162. BZ, a fifty yard walk is good for its exercise and social opportunities along the way. But people who do not vote ARE counted – in terms of “voter turn out”. Analcysts and media commentators also factor that into their clever after party discussions. So your non-vote has counted after all, and probably in a much more clear way than a spoiled vote ie voter apathy versus unknown.

  163. Ba'al Zevul (Going Postal)

    23 May, 2014 - 10:27 am

    Jemand – I took the walk – to the shop…and hey, you two, simmer down. Disagreement should not automatically imply enmity. Even in e-space.

  164. Ba’al, you are calling upon god to appear here and let himself down to talk philosophy with us…..sound of gnashing teeth….. are you expecting him to explain his dissertations on Wittgenstein here?

    I get your point about language, philosophers have to be seen in the light of day they experienced, their social class, their means and discourse undertaken with others, not just of their own class, but what made the working class tick and how they expressed their existence within the smal box provided for them in the overall social strata.

    Calling for Rupert to appear here from behind his green blinkered self, is not something I’m looking forward to, a tedium to be honest, is not seconded here. Had this smug experience before, thank you.

    But I would like to ask him about exorcising Norwich Green Party of people who have occaisional mental disabilities, via round robin letters to the ‘in the know’ within the party.

  165. Ba'al Zevul (Going Postal)

    23 May, 2014 - 10:33 am

    N – I was just needling. The whole point of the Tractatus is contained in that quote. Someone who spends their academic career, as Read has, discussing what it means, has fallen squarely into Wittgenstein’s bear trap. And needs to know it.

    :-)

  166. Jemand,

    “Your system cannot work unless people are disatisfied for more or less the same reason.”

    I believe people who spoil their vote are dissatisfied for more or less the same reason. A spoiled vote is not about individual political issues, it is a complaint about the state of democracy itself. An extreme left winger and an extreme right winger might both spoil their vote because there is no suitable choice for them on the ballot paper. They are dissatisfied for different reasons but their complaints are essentially the same – “my view is not represented.” That’s why I spoil my vote, and if you read the other comments on this thread, that’s why others do it too.

  167. A Node, your example of left + right wing voters together submitting spoiled votes is very much what I had in mind.

    Because they have different demands, say one being multiculturalist, the other anti-immigration, they cancel each other out. But you say that their diametrically opposed positions on the one issue is not relevant. You say it is their combined dissatisfaction with the existing system of democracy is what unites them in their purpose, not specific issues. I don’t believe that to be true. I think that they are dissatisfied with the existing system of democracy because that system cannot meet all of their specific demands which, as we known, cannot be reconciled.

    Of course they could both be dissatisfied by all the corruption they see in politics. But that issue is not represented and counted in a spoiled vote.

    If left wing, right wing and centrist candidates are not good enough, what can be done?

    Political commentators can easily dismiss suggestions about what causes voters spoil their votes because the actual reasons for spoiling is not reported for obvious reasons. All you can do is suspect voter dissatisfaction from a blip in numbers. But if that blip repeats, it is no longer a blip to be noticed and investigated.

    And if dissatisfaction is not properly defined in terms of specific, valid grievances for which actual remedies can be implemented, what good can it do to to just say you are “dissatisfied”?

    Ask someone whether they are happy with their lives. With no further information than ‘yes’ or ‘no’, how do you proceed to remedy someone’s misery?

  168. Is the animosity and hostility being displayed by Jemand specifically designed to deter any new posters from coming on here?

  169. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 May, 2014 - 1:10 pm

    Mary.

    A rare image here of the Aussie Oracle. Experts believe the problem may be due to the weight “B” being moved too far to the right or possible removed altogether though they can’t rule out the possibility of a cracked head-gasket at “A”.

    http://watermarked.heritage-images.com/2502274.jpg

    Special forces and anthropologists report difficulties tracking him down.

    http://mycomedyoflife.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/image0051.jpg

    The upside for fans is that every thread gets copious sprayings of wisdom.

  170. Jemand,

    Until they add to the ballot paper a section headed “please explain your reasons for spoiling your vote”, we’ll have to make do with things as they are. I said it was a blunt instrument. The point is: by spoiling their votes, both the left and right winger have accepted that their is no mechanism within this election to register their specific views, therefore they register discontent with the election instead. That in itself is a strong specific statement.

    Anyway, how would your ‘vote for the least likely candidate’ policy be any better at identifying the specific issues of dissatisfaction? How could it even be differentiated from genuine votes for that candidate? It seems that every criticism you make of the ‘spoiled vote’ system applies even more to your system.

    To tortuously stretch your analogy:
    Ask someone whether they are happy with their lives. If you have to extract the answer from a 3rd party who can’t distinguish the answer you want from the answers to other questions he holds, how do you proceed to remedy someone’s misery?

  171. Sofia. You do make me laugh (out loud) to the puzzlement of the dog. Wherever did you find the cutting?

    I had a hard time mowing the grass this morning as it is growing like anything. I just finished and then the clouds opening so good timing on my part. I came in and had a refreshing glass of Bundaberg Ginger Beer brewed in Cheshire under licence to the Aussie Bundaberg company, or so it says on the label. A really pleasant product from Down Under.

    It’s a small world. http://www.bundaberg.com/info/about_us/our_town/

    and some really friendly looking Aussies here http://bundaberg.qld.gov.au/council/about-council/councillors

  172. Mary, I don’t think that i addressed you on this thread and yet you will address me first with a mischievous claim that i am hostile and trying to drive new commentators away. Are you looking for the kind of fight that you always insist to be avoiding?

    You drove away two onetime regulars here, Technicolour and Dreoilin, with your monotonous and obsessive anti-Jewish campaign that is never challenged by this blog’s establishment. These coward males don’t have the balls to break away from the pack, even momentarily, and tell you what needs to be said. Or perhaps it is having balls and a pathetic desire to appear chivalrous to a woman that is the real reason. Who knows? Clearly, the above two women had more integrity than these brave Knights when they called you to account.

  173. Anti Israel. Get it right.

    I have seen Dreoilin and Technicolour here. Your point is off the mark and malicious in that you are attempting to stir.

  174. Hmmm

    Jemand combines a touching concern for Jews whilst despising the brown fellas.

    Perhaps he’s like this Jewsish chap:

    “Donald Sterling, banned for life from the NBA after he was recorded telling a female friend not to associate with black people, apologises for his ‘mistake’ ”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10823873/Los-Angeles-Clippers-owner-Donald-Sterling-apologises-for-racist-comments.html

  175. Of course there’s a staggering amount of racism in Israel itself. You only have to look at their discussion groups to see that.

    And anti-black racism by Jews in New York and so on is legendary.

    Perhaps if you define yourself as exceptional then your tendency is to see others as inferior.

    Jemand certainly suffers from that problem.

  176. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    23 May, 2014 - 8:41 pm

    Mary

    “Is the animosity and hostility being displayed by Jemand specifically designed to deter any new posters from coming on here?”
    ______________

    It sounds like vigorous discussion to me, but hey, that’s probably because I’m not paranoid! :)

    *************************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  177. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    23 May, 2014 - 9:19 pm

    Jemand

    Excellent comment at 18h51! She needs to be told – repeatedly.

    May I be immodest and recall that it was my exposing of Mary’s peculiar outlook on life in general and Jews in particular which “woke up” a number of other commenters such as Dreoilin and Technicolour? Or it may have been that they were already harbouring doubts about Mary’s credentials but it needed my arrival for them to go public, as it were.

    I am pleased to see that the campaign of denigration from the Gang of Excellences has had no effect at all on the various dissenters and true lovers of freedom and justice on this blog.

  178. “Anyway, how would your ‘vote for the least likely candidate’ policy be any better at identifying the specific issues of dissatisfaction?”

    Voting for the least likely candidate shows that you are not apathetic, not too stupid to cast a valid vote but disinterested in the establishment majors. It cannot convey a specific well defined message beyond what is obvious, none of them do.

    As all establishments want legitimacy, or the appearance of legitimacy, the voting process should reflect that requirement by making voting easy, secure and unambiguous. American voting processes have been properly criticised for making it difficult to get to polling stations, casting votes in a timely fashion and in a way that reflects the true intentions of the voter. The legitimacy of the US federal government is always brought into doubt on this basis and most famously during the Bush vs Gore presidential election.

    Whether the establishment is crooked or legitimate, it is not in their interests to provide an alternative means of political expression other than one that is controlled and therefore unambiguous. If they are cheating, then they want the result to be unambiguously in their favour. If they are not cheating then they also want the result to be unambiguously in their favour but not so much that doubt is aroused about the integrity of the election process, like in the Crimean election.

    No electoral system will knowingly facilitate an alternative means of political expression that would certainly bring the democratic purpose of the election process into question for its ambiguity.

    Therefore, no system will intentionally record the political intent behind an invalid vote because that brings doubt upon the whole system.

    Spoiled votes might be studied for the purpose of improving the voting process but it will not, definitely not, be studied to determine the political sentiments of the public when there are myriad more reliable methods of doing so. It simply doesn’t make sense.

    Even if a crooked “system” did receive, contemplate and understand the message from all the spoilt votes, what do you think they’d do about it? Care? Why would a crooked system want to look to reforming itself?

    Lastly, encouraging people to cast invalid votes will only convince people who are already disaffected. They are either currently not voting or are casting a vote for a minor party.

    Ironically, you could be aiding the appearance of greater support for the majors by converting non voters into a higher turnout and throwing their votes for minor parties onto the scrapheap. The election result would be reported as high turnout, dwindling support for the minors, a large number of invalid votes that cannot account for that portion cast in protest, and most importantly, a decisive victory for one of the two majors.

    I wonder if campaigns like this http://www.spoilyourvote.co.uk/ are the work of genuine dissenters or establishment goons.

    A Node, I suggest that we just disagree and politely leave it at that.

  179. Habbabkuk, yes you may recall that you started the process of questioning the good faith and character of this commentator. Although I think it was your agitation of the status quo that shook her into making a few comments that broke the veneer and revealed her true nature which you went on to explore to devastating effect.

    Some people know that one test of character is the preparedness with which a person is willing to volunteer an expression of contrition or humility. Neither of which can be found amongst people of ignoble disposition. A good example is right here – the dribbling fool above who blames every other white person for historic racist crimes but will not bring himself to confess his own culpability for the same misdeeds in his own land.

    You have to doubt the integrity of people who bang on and on about virtue but display none of it themselves. Take notes, Herbie and kind.

    Habbabkuk, I was one of your earlier detractors and, for that, I apologise with no qualification. We can disagree on this or that, but we will not disagree on the need to tell the truth for what it is and expose impostors for what they really are.

  180. Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 May, 2014 - 10:16 pm

    Mary. 2 28pm

    Good. You deserve a break from Dad and his minions.

    Too bad the dog didn’t get it. I find the best way to spoil a joke is to try explaining it to a dog.

    The cutting came from Sven, my researcher / manicurist.

    Meanwhile, in the only democracy in the middle east it seems Labour also has a creative attitude to getting the votes in.

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/israel-police-probe-alleged-lawmaker-voter-fraud

  181. “A Node, I suggest that we just disagree and politely leave it at that.”

    I …. er … agree

  182. Sofia, having lacked the ability to debate me at a higher level, you now wish to revert to insults like referring to me as a dog and implying that I am too stupid to get your clever “joke”, which is not really your “joke” nor is it particularly clever after having read it before over six months ago.

    Perhaps the “joke” was not in the irony of losing a military vehicle by reason of it having been camouflaged to prevent loss to enemy fire but that it was in your devilishly astute observation that both the military who lost the vehicle and me are both Australian. Yes, now that really is funny.

    And if you change “Australian” for “African” or “Asian”, as we are all continents, you can reuse it on one of your mates but you will need to be careful who. You don’t want to be unfairly accused of being a stupid racist dickhead with a vindictive yellow streak painted down your East European back. That would be uncalled for.

  183. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 May, 2014 - 1:34 am

    Jemand.

    You’re spraying again.

    Now pay attention for a few moments will you.

    Mary

    23 May, 2014 – 2:28 pm

    “Sofia. You do make me laugh (out loud) to the puzzlement of the dog…”

    Sofia Kibo Noh

    23 May, 2014 – 10:16 pm

    “Mary. 2 28pm

    Good. You deserve a break from Dad and his minions…”
    “Too bad the dog didn’t get it. I find the best way to spoil a joke is to try explaining it to a dog…”

    Why would I call you a dog FFS?

    I’ve no argument with my canine brothers, and I think they’d be shocked to know they were being so badly misrepresented, on Craig Murray’s blog of all places, by some geezer the other side of the world.

    And BTW Jemand, you can’t stop this happening. So all you rage changes nothing. You’d do yourself a favour if you just watched your eruptions and asked yourself, does anyone give a damn?

  184. Peter Tatchell? Now there’s a chap the establishment can rely upon:

    http://www.demotix.com/news/4718742/ukrainian-protest-peter-tatchell-against-valery-gergiev-london#media-4718740

    I look forward to Tatchell’s call for the CIA et al to withdraw its personnel from SBU headquarters in Kiev.

  185. Sofia, why would I want to change people falling in love? Do you forget that my bride was brown? What colour is your partner? Now be honest.

  186. If the remarks weren’t directed at me, Sofia, then I apologise and withdraw my comment.

  187. Sofia Kibo Noh

    24 May, 2014 - 11:53 am

    Jemand.

    Good to see we’re on the same page re falling in love.

    Also apology accepted re dog misunderstanding.

    Here’s a peace offering. (No humans were harmed in the making of this two minute film*)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQCwHluBqFc

    *Another offering from Sven, who mentioned it when he brought my morning coctails. I can see him showing off his oiled, manly body as he skims the pool and I tap away in the shade.

  188. Youtube – “could not load movie”

    Will need to check later on my other pc.

  189. Its all the fault of libertarians, says the Green who will, hopefully, not get elected here in the east.

    Not a good reson to refuse a wash barrier Rupert, but a recipe for green dictators to run the roost as they like. My advice would be to count all the cars of members at the next party conference and knit it into your next theory, how Greens can be greener wearing green cloth.

  190. Ba'al Zevul (Bounderby's Bastard Brother)

    27 May, 2014 - 10:34 am

    THanks for that, Nevermind. He really is a lousy writer. I hadn’t realised that.

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