Add together the cities of Donetsk, Kharkiv and Lugansk and you don’t reach the economic output of Dundee. World domination it isn’t. Unfortunately both in the Kremlin and on Capitol Hill they, and their satraps, think it is. Neither side cares at all about the millions of ordinary people in the zone of potential conflict.
The spiral of death in Ukraine is very worrying. Following the tragic deaths in Odessa, the ball is very much in Putin’s court. His bluff has very much been called. We will now learn whether he was stoking clashes in Eastern Ukraine and massing forces on his border in order to give a pretext for invasion – which pretext he now has – or in order to destabilize and intimidate Kiev into moving away from relationships with the EU.
This has been a discussion of the deaf even more within intellectual circles in the West than between Washington and the Kremlin, where at least the Machiavellians understand full well what they are doing. But their followers either, on the one hand, deny that there are any far right elements on the Ukrainian side or any CIA assistance, or alternatively deny that there are many millions of ordinary Ukrainians who genuinely want to be at peace in their own country and move towards the EU. They either claim that all the separatists are Russian agents and deny the genuine minority population which yearns for the Soviet Union or Russia, or they deny the existence of Russian agents and special forces in Ukraine, and that most of the Russian nationalists are every bit as right wing and appalling as the equivalent tendency on the Ukrainian side.
First, some history. The Ukrainian people really do exist. They have been a subjugated people for centuries, most lastingly by the great Polish-Lithuanian Empire and then by the Russian Empire. That does not mean they did not exist. Consider this: until 1990 there had not been an independent Polish state for over two hundred years, except for a fleeting twenty years between the two world wars. Yet nobody doubts the Poles are a real nation. I shan’t start on Scotland again …
None of modern Ukraine was Russian until the 18th century, when the expansion of the Russian empire and decline of the Polish took in these new colonies. As Putin famously remarked, it was called New Russia. Yes, Vladimir, note it was New. That is because it was a colony. Just like New York. Because it was called New Russia gives you no more right to it than the Channel Islands have to New Jersey. Ukraine had been Russian seven hundred years before its 18th century reconquest, but that population had migrated to Muscovy.
The expansion of the Russian Empire was exactly contemporary with the expansion of the British and American Empires, and other bit players like the French. Like most of the American, most of the Russian Empire was a contiguous land mass. The difference between the Russian and British Empires, on the one hand, and the American Empire on the other, was that the Russians and British did not commit genocide of the existing populations. The difference between the Russian and the British Empires is that the British gave almost all of theirs back in the post-colonial period (a process that needs to be urgently completed). Russia gave back much of her Empire at the fall of the Soviet Union, but still retained a very great deal more than the British. It is to me inarguable that, in a historical perspective, Putin is attempting to recover as much of the Russian Empire as possible, including but by no means solely by the annexation of Crimea and his actions in Ukraine.
Crimea, incidentally, had maintained its own independent existence as the last remnant of the Mongol Horde right up until the 19th century. Despite the Russian colonisation of Crimea in the 19th century, it still had a majority Tatar population until the 1940’s, when Stalin tried his hand at genocide on them. The Tatars were branded Nazis. Opponents of the Russian Empire are always “Nazis” or “Jihadists”. The deportation of the Tatars from Crimea was only twenty years before the British did the same genocide to a smaller people in Diego Garcia. I call for the restitution of both. Those who call for the restitution of one and not the other are appalling hypocrites.
Equally hypocritical are those who call for a referendum on Russian union for East Ukraine, but not for referenda on independence for Dagestan and Chechnya. It is an irony insufficiently noted, that in Russia to call or campaign for the separation of any part of the state is a crime punishable by up to 22 years’ imprisonment. There are over 7,000 people from the Caucasus imprisoned under that law.
There is absolutely no movement among the large minority Russians of the Baltic States to rejoin Mother Russia, because living conditions in the EU are just so much better. As I have blogged before, it is undeniably true that living conditions for ordinary people in Poland have vastly improved as a result of EU membership, and are much better than in Ukraine – or Russia.
GDP per capita figures for Russia look quite good, but do not give a true reflection of living standards because of astonishing levels of inequality of wealth. This is very bad in the West, and getting much worse rather rapidly, but is nowhere near as bad as in Russia which is the most viciously capitalist state in the world, made worse by its commodity dependency. The Russian economy is completely non-diversified, manufacturing and services are miniscule and it is overwhelmingly a raw commodity exporter in energy, metals, grain etc. That leads to extreme concentration of profit and a lack of employment opportunity. Combine that with mafia state corruption and you have the oligarchs’ paradise. Russia is a gangster state. On top of which, if I were a Russian who campaigned against the Russian government in the same way that I do against my own, I would be dead.
The desire of ordinary Ukrainians to join the EU one day, and move closer to it now, is understandable and indeed commendable. It was also the desire of Yanukovich. Those who claim Western pressure on Yanukovich forget – or choose to ignore – that Yanukovich’s government had actually, quite independently and voluntarily, negotiated the EU co-operation agreement and were on the point of signing it, when Yanukovich was summoned to Moscow by Putin and informed that if they signed the agreement, the energy supplies to Ukraine would immediately be cut off in mid-winter and debt called in.
That is a fact. It was not illegal for Putin to do that; it was perhaps even legitimate for those who believe in a Machiavellian approach to great power politics. Yanukovich temporized, between a rock and a hard place. Ukraine seemed to be at a key moment of balance, hung between the EU and Russia. The capital being in West Ukraine and overwhelmingly ethnic Ukrainian, pro-EU crowds started to build up. Then things started to get wildly out of control.
Were western governments encouraging pro-western groups in Ukraine? Yes, that’s their job. Did this include covert support? Yes. Were the Russians doing precisely the same thing with their supporters? Yes, that’s their job too. Did the Americans spend 5 billion dollars on covert support? Of course not.
Victoria Nuland claimed in a speech America had put 5 billion dollars into Ukraine. I used to write those kind of speeches for British ministers. First you take every bit of money given by USAID to anything over a very long period, remembering to add an estimate for money given to international projects including Ukraine. Don’t forget to add huge staff costs and overheads, then something vast for your share of money lent by the IMF and EBRD, then round it up well. I can write you a speech claiming that Britain has given five billion dollars to pretty well anywhere you claim to name.
The problem is that both the left and right have again, equal but opposite motives for believing Nuland’s bombast about the extent of America’s influence on events. I have been in this game. You can’t start a revolution in another country. You can affect it at the margins.
A military coup you certainly can start. One thing we don’t really know nearly enough about is what happened at the end, when Yankovich had to flee. The Maidan protestors would never have caused a government to fall which retained full control of its army. The army can fail the rulers in two ways. First is a revolutionary movement among normal soldiers – the French revolution model. Second is where the troops remain disciplined but follow their officers in a military coup. The latter is of course a CIA speciality. More evidence is needed, but if this is the second model, it is unusual for it not to result in military control of government. Egypt is the obvious current example of a CIA backed coup.
After Yanukovich we had entered the world domination game. Putin seemed to have lost. The annexation of Crimea was a smart move by Putin in that game, because there probably is a genuine small majority of the population there who would like to join Russia. I have no doubt whatsoever that Putin himself does not believe the 93% for a moment. As I said, the Machiavellian players of world domination are realistic; it is their purblind followers on either side who buy their propaganda.
The Kiev government and the West should have conceded Crimea before Putin moved his troops into it. The sensible thing for the new Kiev government to have done would have been to offer a referendum in Crimea itself, under its own auspices. That would have got the most hardline pro-Russian voters out of the country for good. But by that time, everyone had gone into Macho mode, which is where we still are.
None of the remaining provinces would opt to join Russia given the choice. There is no shortage of existing and historic opinion poll evidence on that. Crimea was the only province with an ethnic Russian majority. The Eastern provinces have Russian speaking majorities, but most are ethnic Ukrainian. I base ethnicity here purely on self-identification in census (and, as I have repeatedly explained, absolutely everybody in the former Soviet Union knows precisely what is asked in the questions of Gradzvanstvo and Narodnosch). Just as some Welsh people speak English, some Ukrainians speak Russian but do not consider themselves Russian. Putin’s frequent references to the Russian-speaking peoples coming back to Russia are as sinister as if we started talking of re-uniting all the English speaking people in the world.
As almost always with colonies, the minority ethnic Russian populations in the East of Ukraine are more concentrated in urban areas. Hence it has been possible in regional capitals to mobilise gangs of disaffected and unemployed Russian young men (in view of Ukraine’s basket case economy there are plenty), and with a slight stiffening of Russian forces take control of town centres. There is a significant minority, and possibly a majority in town centres, willing to support. It is, I think, extremely important to understand that the thugs on both sides are very unpleasant. I have the particular experience of relations with a lot of Uzbeks, and the incidence of racial attacks by Russian nationalist thugs within Russia itself is absolutely horrifying and almost completely unreported. The swastika is a popular symbol among young macho men throughout all of former Eastern Europe including Russia. I absolutely guarantee you that an equally significant proportion of the pro-Russians who have been attacking anyone who tries to show support for Ukraine within Eastern Ukrainian cities, are no more and no less right wing, racist and vicious than the appalling Pravy Sektor thugs included on the other side. We have plenty within the EU – there is a serious problem, for example, with the official encouragement given to commemorations of pro-Nazi forces within the Baltic states which often have a distinctly neo-Nazi tinge.
Putin’s campaign of controlling the urban centres appears to have gone wrong in Odessa, which is simply too large for the numbers of available young men armed with baseball bats to take control. The pro-Russians were badly beaten in precisely the same street fighting they had been winning elsewhere. The culmination of this was the terrible fire and deaths. My expectation is there will not be many women, children or old people among the dead, but also there will not be many non-Ukrainian nationals. I expect these will prove to have been local Russian young men.
Putin now has a real problem. His own rhetoric has indicated that he will sweep in and defend these Russians, but there is one thing anyone with half a brain should have worked out by now. The ruling 1%, the ultra-wealthy, in both Russia and the West are so interconnected with each other that they are playing the game of world domination while trying at the same time to make sure nobody super-rich really loses his money. Hence the strange obviously bogus sanctions regimes. Real stock market disruption and confiscation of corrupt assets would be difficult to avoid if the tanks start rolling in earnest. We may be saved from utter disaster by the sheer scale of global corruption, which is a strange conclusion.
I would like to think the awful deaths of the last few days would lead both sides to step back from the brink. The time has come for a peacekeeping force. Negotiations should be held urgently to make the Kiev interim government more inclusive of opposition elements from the East – and they must oust the far right at the same time. The UN Security Council should then send in UN peacekeepers, which must include both Russian and western forces in close integration, to keep the peace while genuine elections are held. I can see no other way forward which does not risk disaster.
“you can’t start battles and expect a situation where only the other side gets hurt.”
Uh, yeah. Tell it to the marines.
It started in America.
I’m heartened to see a few commentators still ready to intelligently ‘tell it as really it is’ – Canspeccy, Tony 0pmoc, John Goss, Mary and a few others but frankly, after maybe 8 years of trying to hang in there with Craig, this is my swan song on any further involvement here.
In spite of his principled, career-destroying stance on torture I have become progressively disillusioned with his particular brand of hectoring liberal-left politics. His OTOH – OTO approach to the noose-tightening around Russia is just the latest manifestation of the way in which so-called ‘progressives’ in the west effectively facilitate the very worst manifestations of its violent arrogant aggression whilst simultaneously wringing their hands and denouncing it. I still can’t figure out quite what causes such blindeness.
Craig may have been opposed to the West’s humanitarian bombing campaigns and terrorist violence facilitating in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria etc, …but what else was the West supposed to do in the face of such evil dictators? is the general message conveyed. And so it is with Putin and Ukraine.
I suggest he attends this recent Moscow University class lecture by its Director of Russian Studies Andrei Fursov: Battleground Ukraine. It might help him to “See himself as ithers see him” – to plagiarise his national poet – and to get a rather more nuanced understanding of the Russian perspective on these things. To paraphrase and borrow from Le Carre’s traitor Bill Haden, a substantial majority support their president and “Hate the American State system very deeply – the oppression of the working class institutionalised” + any uppity 2nd-or-3rd world country that declines to see things their/our way; and as for GREAT Britain – “…. America’s street-walker” just about sums it up.
The plain fact is that Putin has simply declined to allow Russia to be dragged down the same path. In so doing he has become probably THE most popular head of state on the entire planet – and thus a hated and marked man in the West. The Anglo-US-NATO behemoth has, it appears, decided that it is going to make Ukraine THE casus belli for doing to Russia what they failed to follow-through on during the Yeltsin years – and GOD HELP US ALL!
Also, you might like to study this map of Russia’s clearly aggressive intent
Cheerio.
Resident Dissident 3 May, 2014 – 8:12 pm
Don’t know where you live but in Birmingham we have litter-pickers whose work is never done. It would not be too much to ask for people to take their litter home. This morning when coming back from walking the dogs a kid on a bike 14/15 perhaps drained a coke can and threw it to the ground I shouted to him to find a bloody litter bin. He looked at me and ignored me as one who owns the planet. We all have a responsibility to help our council’s parks and gardens and highway departments. My observations of Poland were a comparison to what I see here. On the Moscow Metro in Soviet days I never saw litter. Perhaps litter is a by-product of the capitalist throw-away society.
Logging in for future comment, differ on this but great blog – following from Australia for 3 year
Mr Murray wrote:
“My expectation is there will not be many women, children or old people among the dead, but also there will not be many non-Ukrainian nationals. I expect these will prove to have been local Russian young men.”
This shows the results of the actions of West’s neonazi stooges. Note the absence of weapons.
A comment by ‘olivegreen’ in the comments to this lists the names and DOBs of the victims identified so far. A wide variety of ages and sexes. All are from Odessa.
Just for that extra touch – on the social media pages of some of the neonazis, commentators counterpose images of roast turkey with all the trimmings against images presented in the first link above.
“Russia and China are in the way of US world hegemony.”
That’s exactly the bigger picture here, Herbie. Has been since PNAC forced Clinton to sign the Iraq Liberation Act when he “did not have sexual relations with that woman.”
From Serbia onwards, the same deceit, provocation and outright aggression.
Martin Luther King must be turning in his grave.
Craig Murray: “You can’t start a revolution in another country… You can affect it at the margins. The UN Security Council should send in UN peacekeepers, which include both Russian and Western forces in close intergration.”
A number of questions spring to mind. Judging by the terrifying violent escalation over last few days.
(1) Why has Security Council not acted on your particular solution – assuming others have surely come to same conclusion? Surely, others can see that the situation is out of control.
(2) Is it that some sort of resolution needs to be passed beforehand?
(3) Do all member states need to agree?
“My expectation is there will not be many women, children or old people among the dead, but also there will not be many non-Ukrainian nationals. I expect these will prove to have been local Russian young men.”
I am not sure that this will be the case and it certainly isn’t what is being reported in Russia – but I’m afraid that it something of an irrelevance. With the Russians encouraging and supporting the takeover of government buildings in what is part of the Ukraine it was only a matter of time before there was a reaction from Ukrainian nationalists and extremists – I’m afraid that is what happens in such situations. Neither behaviour is excusable – it only demonstrates the restraint shown by the vast majority of Ukrainians that something like this didn’t happen much earlier.
Strong international pressure needs to be exerted on both sides to get the military and quasi military out of the situation – as they have already agreed to do so. However, given the way this is all being reported in Russia I get the distinct impression that accelerating the cycle of violence is all part of Putin’s plan for a further invasion.
@Tony_Opmoc
“How pathetic can a phony analyst be?” was a bit strong…
Yes, I agree: an ill-mannered presumption. I take it back with apologies — but with the proviso that one would be a fool not to realize that my supposition is quite likely correct.
Thanks for the fascinating link:
http://linguistic-determinism-art-language.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/empiric-myopia.html
It provides salutary warning of the obscurity of events despite the glib reports from all sides, and offers a fascinating hypothesis on Snowden, an otherwise very strange phenomenon.
That’s tosh Res Diss. Recycled western MSM wilful misreading of the situation – imaginative fiction – and with some uniquely cringeworthy hyperbole of your own larded on top. Where is your urge for enquiry into the identities of the ‘Ukranian nationalists and extremists’ who committed this atrocity? The victims have been identified, subject to verification, they’re were mixed bag of local people, hounded through the streets by a baying mob and horribly murdered.
Craig’s off-beam with this analysis too, some interesting historical summary, some painfully evident editorialising too, with a disconnect from reality many commenters have remarked upon. Maybe it’s a two-part essay and the flip side is in the works?
So your saying they deserved incineration, sooner?
You’re one sick puppy. This’ll come back to haunt you.
Craig,
somewhat perplexed by your statement “The difference between the Russian and the British Empires is that the British gave almost all of theirs back in the post-colonial period (a process that needs to be urgently completed). Russia gave back much of her Empire at the fall of the Soviet Union, but still retained a very great deal more than the British.” You may disagree but I would expect that a thief should give eventually back what he has stolen but who will resurrect the dead and remedy the lives of millions that have been ruined by the colonial powers. The question you perhaps should ask yourself is whether, and to what extent, is this giving back voluntary. Certainly not in my opinion. Your comparison is intended to fool the reader. How much have the US government given back to the Sioux or Apaches? Fucking nothing, I would say. The colonization of America was similar to that of Russia. A gradual expansion over large swathes of land with low population density. I hope that you will not be too surprised if I tell you that the British colonization was totally different as it involved subjugating countries that were rather distant from the motherland and had large populations like India. Keeping them for much longer would have been impossible. Thus what you mean by giving back is not dissimilar to a thief leaving behind a bronze statue on a doorstep that is too heavy to carry to the van. Or letting free a crocodile that has grown too large for his bathtub.
One brilliant analysis. Nothing to add. Thanks.
I’d have a reservation re. “The desire of ordinary Ukrainians to join the EU one day, and move closer to it now, is understandable.” If desires of “ordinary Ukrainians” are analysed, I don’t think “joining EU” would be anywhere in the first 100 of the most burning ones. Safety of existence, definitely. Lowers prices, higher wages, yes. But for the MAJORITY of them, European Union is just an imaginary creature, the way it was for the Poles, Czechs, etc., in the 1990s.
Decisions on forming strategic alliances can only rarely be decided upon by the masses, and certainly not in countries characterised by precarious security situation. What the “ordinary Ukrainians” want is utterly irrelevant IMHO – people will want whatever TV tells them to, and there is more than enough studies to confirm this.
People in the east of Ukraine now are told that joining Russia will bring stability and prosperity. I bet the majority believes in that. And will until local TV transmitters change hands.
Sorry for my rant, and thanks again for a truly enlightening post.
“From Serbia onwards, the same deceit, provocation and outright aggression.”
Precisely, Mike.
The problem with Craig’s approach is that it’s much too discrete, can’t see the wood for the trees.
Picking on Putin for what are relatively minor matters in the Ukraine context and ignoring completely the West’s much graver involvement and its longer term plans.
The West is determined that there is no challenge to its desire to impose its rules upon the whole planet. That’s why Russia and China are ringed with NATO bases. Either threatened into submission or bombed into submission.
It’s as simple as that.
You’re either for that plan or you’re not.
And each element must be treated as part of the larger plan.
In that context, Craig’s position just seems confused.
Tony M,
I agree with you that these blood hounds like the resident dissident craving for murder are intolerable. Why does Craig tolerates the implicit sadness of this hasbara clown that more blood has not been spilled in Odessa is difficult to understand.
Yonotan; I’ve taken the liberty of google tranzing your link (beware graphic images)
Squonk was watching the live feed and the Odessa police were standing around when the victims sought shelter in the building, which was intentionally set afire. The cops seemed to be on task to prevent the wrong side from emerging unscathed.
sorry…the link….https://translate.google.com.my/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fani-al.livejournal.com%2F1705540.html&edit-text=
“In that context, Craig’s position just seems confused.”
It’s hard to tell what the nuance within Craig’s ideology is. I wish he would dispense with his prickly condescension when he replies to comments, but perhaps it’s a defense mechanism. He has a very narrow spectrum on certain subjects, and sometimes it seems he feels his first response is sufficient for all but fools, so follow-ups are received with abject silence. It’s hard to tell if he’s stumped or just gives up the ghost of tolerance.
None of the remaining provinces would opt to join Russia given the choice.
I don’t think many in Ukraine or Russia are saying otherwise. At the outset of this US/NATO/Chatham House-induced “crisis” Putin stated that Russia did not seek additional territory, i.e., other than Crimea, where 93% of those who actually voted, i.e., about 83%, are said to have voted for union with Russia (which seems not implausible), and where Russia has based its Black Sea fleet for most of the time since 1783, i.e., since before the US had appropriated most of the territory of the North Americas Amerindians.
Consistent with this Russian position, Russia’s English language media refer to the E. Ukraine protesters as Federalists, not separatists. “Separatist” is the term used by the Western media and Kyiv regime after it became obviously absurd to use the term “terrorist” for those in Eastern Ukraine angry at the intention of the Nazi-backed Kyiv junta to deny them the use of Russian as an official language.
You advocate Scotch separatism, but would deny Russian-speaking Ukrainians the right to the use of their first language or the right to a referendum on provincial autonomy. This seems like truly astounding hypocrisy.
As for the blather about the wonderful improvement in the standard of living of East European members of the EU, the fact is many in the EU are suffering far greater economic stress than the people of Russia, where the GDP has tripled in the last 25 years. In fact, if Ukraine were to become a member of the EU now, most of the best educated young people would grab an EU passport and leave for Berlin or London, while the majority at home would be saddled with years of austerity, mass unemployment and looting of the economy by oligarchs of both East and West.
Another important thing to know – especially as it gets warmer – obviously you can’t take the piss – is to ask for a pint of tap water – and insist that you are not paying for it…I am not sure if it is still a legal requirement..but it is a very long standing cultural, accepted thing in the watering holes I go to with my wife – particularly if they both have a beer festival on – and a Brilliant Band.
Best Drink of the Day
Tony
@ RD
This is of course the sort of plan Canspeccy would like the West to follow as well
Still pushing the opposition-to-genocide-is-racism meme? Good luck with that!
Would be sorry if Wikispooks ceases to comment, especially after the Moscow University class lecture of Andrei Fursov posted in his comment above. I have never read such an in-depth analysis of who the oligarchs are, what are the powers behind those with an interest in Ukraine, how Russia is trying to control the beast unleashed on the world in the form of NATO wars. His analysis of Putin and the Russian government being one step ahead, and preparing to defend itself against any similar aggression. And the analysis makes sense. It finishes with a stark warning about the information war that I believe should not be ignored.
“Well, we shouldn’t be ashamed to learn from the West how to operate in the informational domain. Their policies are of an offensive nature. If you are reacting, then you’re one step behind and you’re going to lose. In the Crimean Victory we won because our leadership, above all the president, he was always a step ahead of the opponent. He took a step. They reacted. He set the agenda.”
They did win. They won Crimea. I recently applied for a new passport. Up to four weeks I think it said it would take if I remember right. In three days maybe less everybody in Crimea was issued with passports. In some ways I feel Russia is ahead not just in the information war, but in their analyses of situations, and see the bigger picture better than those they learnt from. I am really concerned about what is happening in the Ukraine, for the people killed in Odessa the images of which are disturbing. But thank you Yonatan for posting.
I still suspect (conspiracy theory of course) the Russians shot down two missiles when Israel tried to ramp up the pressure in Syria, because after that US/NATO (same thing) backed off when we all thought they were previously creating an excuse to go in. Also Russian intelligence was obviously ahead of the game in releasing audio footage of Catherine Ashton/Urmus Paet and, presumably, a recorded meeting with Victoria Nuland, Klitschko, Yatsenyuk and thugs.
Continued from previous thread… RT are still claiming that civilians have been murdered by Right Sector in K, although they are playing down the Nazi imagery. Jury has to still be out unless verified independently. BBC always used to make sure they had at least two independent sources – is that still true today?
I’ve looked through some of the thousands of pictures on social media show the lead up to the burning of the TU headquarters, and pictures of people brought out of the building. There are pictures of Molotov cocktails being produced by the sort of photogenic females that we all saw in the Maidan protests. No doubt in my mind now that the MM have been nurturing a neo-Nazi mindset amongst the young in Western Ukraine.
There were also pictures of charred bodies that hadn’t been removed… hence the rise to 46 today. Whilst some may have been pro-Russian activists, there were probably also people working in the building that was stormed and burned, and we know how much our right-wing friends like trades unionists…
We should all be aware of the words of Pastor Niemoiller, because it seems to me that we potentially have a 4th Reich here in the making on Russia’s doorstep. And the “useful fools” blame Russia for this?!!?
K = Kramatorsk
An interesting thought that has to invite a reaction:
“The illegal Kiev puppets get more money if they can delivery west and east Ukraine to IMF and US. As we see they’re willing to kill to get the extra billions.”
(Comment a few minutes ago on RT website)
CanSpeccy wrote “Still pushing the opposition-to-genocide-is-racism meme? Good luck with that!”
Still pushing the allowing-any-immigraton-whatsoever-is-genocide meme? Good luck with that!
Only been to Poland once and then only to Warsaw, but from the few people I spoke to it seemed like it could well be the case that the country was getting better off overall but inequality growing so much that many people were worse off (as with most of the developed world). Was told the same people who were senior public servants under the Communist party were now running the privatised firms and the stock exchange. Then again i was only there once so don’t have anything to compare it to.
Craig
Your use of the term ‘aggressive participants’ is an addition to the lexicon. I don’t recall it being used by you last winter, when Yanukovitch was still in office, and events like this-
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/protesters-storm-police-headquarters-chaos-spreads-lviv-n33576
and this-
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/23/ukraine-protesters-storm-office-and-force-regional-governor-to-resign-as-demonstrations-continue-in-smouldering-kyiv/
were happening elsewhere in Ukraine
Wikispooks I endorse the stated wish of others here, that you continue to offer your words of wisdom to us out in the wider world. Perhaps if you might just accept (for better or worse) Craig’s position on various issues, your contributions are valued by many others, and who knows, the scales might fall from the eyes of those who can’t ‘see’.
We can’t change others, but at least hang in with those who care to see all sides of any given situation. Thank You.
@DM
Still pushing the allowing-any-immigraton-whatsoever-is-genocide meme?
Your sneer is based on a lie.
Get the facts right and you demolish your own position and reveal your own anti-British racism.
Allowing mass immigration when the fertility of the indigenous population is below the replacement rate results in population replacement, which is genocide.
But it’s a waste of time, I realize, pointing out facts to pig-headed immigration fanatics and dupes of the globalist elite.
“Were western governments encouraging pro-western groups in Ukraine? Yes, that’s their job. Did this include covert support? Yes. Were the Russians doing precisely the same thing with their supporters? Yes, that’s their job too.”
That’s their job only in the sense that it was Jose Rodriguez’ job to cut the tits off nuns. As the World Court put it, “The Court notes that there have been in recent years a number of instances of foreign intervention in one State for the benefit of forces opposed to the government of that State. It concludes that the practice of States does not justify the view that any general right of intervention in support of an opposition within another State exists in contemporary international law.” So the US was in the wrong before the revolution established itself as the new government. If, as seems likely, the successor state breached international obligations in coming to power, all nations have a responsibility not to recognize the wrongfully-established circumstances. Hands-off is best, no doubt, but the Russian and US hands-on are not precisely equivalent.
Agreed that Ukraine is now a pawn of great-power confrontation in multilateral breach of the non-intervention principle. That means the only sure way to defuse the conflict is to set up a neutral Ukraine. In principle that’s for the state to decide but the threat to peace might override that. Let’s hope cooler heads short-circuit the NATO/SCO tug-of-war with a neutral Ukraine.
Sadly a very one-sided historical analysis
Craig fails to mention the fact that while many Russian speakers east of the Dnieper see themselves as Ukrainian- many of the neo-nazis west of the Dneiper do not. While Nuland’s $5b is likely highly exaggerated, as is much else of from the neo-con camp, the financial inputs fro State Dept’s the Endowment for Democracy in the past 10 years combined with the resourcing and training by Western intelligence agencies of the neo-nazi parties in Western Ukraine during the entire period of the Cold War and after are certainly likely to total in the hundreds of millions of dollars. From the West perspectives the neo-nazis are sen as foolish tools to control Ukraine’s geopolitical resources and a stepping stone to Russia but there values are clear- to rid Ukraine of all non Ukrainian speaking peoples
It is undoubtedly true that there is a large contingent of extreme right wing groups in Russia itself, and Putin and his entourage are definitely not in the liberal and morally laissez-faire camp either (it would appear not many Russian citizens are!) However to characterize Putin as some demonic dictator about to re-take all of Eastern Europe is both bizarre and superficial.
Unquestionably there will be Russian intelligence agents on the ground in Eastern Ukraine, but even the US State Department cant find factual evidence that actually sticks of Russian troops on the ground. The usefulness of Svoboda and the Right Sektor and other right wing groups, to the West is purely in their hatred of Russia and the evils done to Ukraine in the name of the USSR.
Russian speaking Ukrainians are undoubtedly at risk in this new environment of Ukrainian “nationalism”, which has been heavily supported by the West -to pretend otherwise is, at best, sloppy analysis.