Difficult journey to Ghana Europe snow now here very intermittent connection speedtest 3kbps (sic) when working. Almost impossible post. Ghana Telecom privatised to Vodafone much worse. Try post tomorrow.
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Re abusive posts, Larry, do you know the phrase ‘being sent to coventry’?
Thanks for posting that, George, it made me feel all fuzzy and warm and safe. I like the thought of big men with guns protecting me from – er.
Clark – “Classic indoctrination techniques are used – read the paragraph, get asked the questions beneath it, parrot back the right sentences. Lots of repetition.”
Well, but lots of teaching is like that. Don’t many people get taught reading, writing and ‘rithmetic that way ?
“But the beliefs are also insidious – “Believe this, or you will die at Armageddon, which is coming soon”.”
Ah. The three other Rs, it’s ‘Believe this or or you’ll never get anywhere in the world, you’ll probably starve’ ? But there is more concensus that those are necessary, there are no alternative methods. We _can_ teach “Comparative religion”, but “Alternative arithmetic” isn’t a viable subject (cf. George Orwell 🙂
I should say, perhaps, that I don’t have any points to make or axes to grind, I’m just wondering. There _are_ things that I believe children should’t be taught because they’re wrong. But, how to draw the line …
Larry – “Could happen to anyone – just gotta be in the right place at the right time.”
Sure. In a bar frequented by massively rich women.
Technicolour,
what is the LLRB, and do you have a link, please?
Hello, I think one the main things about children is that they learn by example. “Do as I say, don’t do as I do” doesn’t really cut it for a kid.
Can’t imagine what it would be like to believe in Armageddon: Hindus seem to shrug it off, and most UK Christians just ignore what are clearly the shroom crazed ramblings of a paranoiac (Revelations). Seems to be on the increase, though.
Re: 8:03
I don’t agree with those teaching ‘incentives’ (threats) anyway. Teaching should follow curiosity. Arithmetic can be introduced as a tool.
I don’t think you need to ‘draw a line’ as such; conforming to rules rather than using sound judgement is degrading many institutions. But if you insist on a ‘line’, well, death threats to four year olds should certainly be beyond it.
Actually, you probably can teach comparative maths, with a bit of ingenuity, but I don’t see any need.
8:19 cont…
I can honestly say that NONE of my school lessons were as mindless as Watchtower study.
“Re: The Hurt Locker –
Seen it …I didn’t think it was anything particularly special …”
–CheebaCow
Thanks for the response, CC. I hear it’s likely to win a Golden Globe (tonight?) and even an Oscar, maybe. Interesting that you weren’t taken with it either. I can’t write much as my DSL is seriously on the blink. BT tell me my phone line has a ‘fault’. Maybe it’s tapped!!! [j/k] I’ll be lucky if I get this posted.
“This week I’m probably going to watch ‘The Messenger’ with Woody Harrelson, if anyone is interested I can post a short opinion.”
Always interested in a quick film review.
“I also think Blackwater (or at least some other merc company) is already in Haiti …”
Was watching Channel 4 News a while ago. Apparently the US has brought in thousands of troops + supplies — for the troops — but no aid so far. Jon Snow said that (other) aid agency flights were diverted when H Clinton was arriving …
back anon
Clark, it was the Legislative & Regulatory Reform Bill. It’s been a while since I looked at it, and actually, the campaign against it did well, on reflection. As the Bill stood it gave any minister the power to amend, repeal or introduce primary or secondary legislation by order for any purpose. In fact, it gave that power to ‘any person’. It was being rushed through disguised as a bill to de-regulate businesses, and it passed its first session in the Commons without opposition. By the end, and after lawyers and commentators had been screaming, it is widely believed to have been properly amended. See SaveParliament.org for more details. And I will go & look at the final amendments, in fact.
Hi Clark: There are some very interesting lectures on Jehovah’s Witnesses on Minnesota Atheists’ site. Listened to them some time back, but they’d probably be that much more interesting for someone like yourself with the same experience.
http://mnatheists.org … look at the ‘Podcast’ tab at the top…
Podcasts of interest:
“Cults, Part 2”, 3/1/08
“Natural Atheism” , 3/9/09
“Chosen Atheism”, also 3/9/09
If you can’t find it, let me know and I can AIM you my own copies.
Glenn,
thanks. However, this is no longer an issue for me. I’ve only mentioned it recently because the matter came up in conversation. So long as they don’t come knocking on my door…
(which they don’t, any more).
Clark: “I have the opposite problem from you. I’m so open minded I have to be careful that my brain doesn’t fall out!”
I don’t know what your definition of “open-minded” is but I don’t think it is healthy to suspend all judgment indefinitely.
I can’t be agnostic about whether a bus is going to knock me down in the street if I walk in front of it.
“I suggest a personal experiment for you. Take your formidable logical powers, and point them in the opposite direction for a predetermined time; a month, say. It will take considerable self discipline to achieve this. I’m not asking you to publish the results. Just see where that takes you.”
But you have ruled out doing the same which suggests a double standard on your part.
And I don’t believe it takes “discipline” to achieve. It takes SELF-DECEPTION as it would involve trying to force myself to conclude the opposite of what I believe. As I said, that is not healthy.
Regarding 9/11 I have explained how I came to the conclusion I did. It wasn’t through some dogmatic parroting of the “official line” but through reading information about it and assessing the evidence on both sides. The fact is that the “evidence” on the side of the Truthers is all but non-existent. Their methods are dishonest and their arguments are incoherent. I cannot apply my rigourous logical skills to make those facts go away.
“More seriously, the change from Jehovah’s Witless to atheist (via various diverse destinations) is pretty radical. I often wonder just what it is I believe, and why.”
Well, I went from Catholicism to atheism. It wasn’t a CHOICE but my inability to find any evidential or coherent basis for Catholicism. Perhaps your departure from Jehova’s Witnessism came from a dictate of reason rather than a choice about what to believe.
Besides, I have noticed a lot of ideas being thrown around here as if they were self-evidently true but which strike me as completely unexamined. Many of the Truthers here seem to believe in the “false flag” theory out of faith. Their evidence doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It was remarked that Britain is a horrible place to be a Muslim. I think it is probably one of the best places to be a Muslim (I believe this from talking to Muslims who find their home countries of Sudan, Egypt, Iran etc… too oppressive). It is remarked here that Americans are all thick and can’t understand irony, and it is ironically parrotted moronically as if it were a gospel truth. It is suggested that Americans are ruled over by a class of apparatchiks and that it is a racist and elitist Hellhole. America has nothing like the inequality of countries that are bewilderingly supported by Leftists as some kind of bulwark against “imperialism” (this “imperialism” is often nothing more than prosperous democratic states).
Remember Fidel Castro saying that America would never elect a black president because it is incorrigibly racist. That’s rich! When was the last time ANYONE was elected president of Cuba?
Again at the beginning of this thread (Hi folks BTW) – Roderick tells us of his alarming and disturbing ‘harassment’ which is of course at one end of the spectrum with ‘torture’ at the other, by as he says British secret services (MI5/6 CSIS).
I have to ask just two questions Roderick, that worry me:
1. Did you leave your somewhat senior position on friendly terms with the ‘board’ or your boss{s} or in other words, did you leave because of dispute/threats/malpractice/sexual harassment/violence or breach of confidentiality?
2. Did you acquire some knowledge of, or did you witness, or were you told something in the course of your employment that, if revealed would:
(a) Breach/Damage/jeopardise/embarrass National security?
(b)Embarrass/vilify/persecute/undermine any member of the Royal family?
(c) Embarrass/ etc any Lord or Knight of the Realm?
Thank-you for your honest answers.
Ad break (I’m watching Troy)
Angrysoba, I don’t quite see how you can generalise about this board. Opinions on 9/11 vary, sometimes wildly. MJ is understandably suspicious of the official narrative; CheebaCow points out that either way the results are the same; Clark doesn’t quite know what to believe; Glenn seems to be convinced by the ‘truth’ movement’ and so on. Can we drop it now?
By the way, as far as ‘prosperous democratic states’ go, isn’t Detroit bankrupt? Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008? How much have the attacks cost them?
Hi technicolour,
Since you mentioned 9/11 – I’ll throw in this – I recorded and reviewed all the NORAD tapes and believe that a charge of ‘derelict of duty’ is long overdue for the Chiefs of Staff. This considering flight 77’s unusual path mean’t in was air-bourne for around 44 minutes.
I have studied the radar data and the flight data and the two do not match, indeed they are both very confusing and illogical if we consider the planes were manned and flown by suicidal terrorists.
technicolour: One slight correction, if I may. What is the consensus of the ‘Truth movement’ ? If I might be so bold, there isn’t one. The only common feature is that the Official Story is less than satisfactory, and a proper enquiry should be held. Given the risible manner in which the 9/11 Commissions Report was undertaken, I do not see that calling for a full, independent enquiry could be considered unreasonable – particularly given the 9/11 CR was the only enquiry conducted to date, and key participants of that say it’s rubbish.
Here Here Glen well said!
Mark, it is enough for me to know that the horror of 9/11 was used as an excuse to attack a completely unprotected country (Afghanistan) and a completely unprotected and unconnected country (Iraq).
By the way, it seems the attacks have cost the US taxpayer around a trillion dollars so far, and counting.
Sorry, don’t mean to sound dismissive. I know about PNAC too. I know there were people who wanted something like this to happen.
technicolour.. you might well be wise enough to figure that out. How many of the mouth-breathers who just nodded their heads, as the stenographers, sorry, the crack White House press corps swallowed the lies fed by Bush-co. How many people wanted to kick-ass in revenge, and how many Arabs have suffered and/or died as a result on this supposed vengeance? So it’s pretty darned important to know the truth, since everything that has been allowed to follow has done so on the basis that the Official Story was true.
The fact that some well read individuals know the GWOT is a nonsense is not, therefore, enough in itself.
“the Official Story” is another canard of the failed 911 “truth” “movement.” There is no official story.
At some point people like Glenn have to admit that they’re not interested in the outcome of another inquiry. NIST dedicated a great deal of time to come up with the best explanation for the collapse of Building 7, and – as predicted – NOT ONE TRUTHER gave credit to the findings of NIST. The same would be true of another investigation – the outcome would be that 19 Muslim Arab hijackers committed the attacks, and truthers like Glenn will still be annoying people.
Clark – I’ve been out drinking & playing tunes with people, I’ve lost the train of thought. But, your “8.03”, “8.19” references made me think – it _is_ hard keeping track of who said what, especially when a thread sprawls like this (I hope Craig’s having an interrsting time in Ghana ?) :- I’ve seen some blogs where the comments are numbered, so that people can refer to previous comments just by quoting that number. I wonder if that would be helpful here ? Could it be done ? Heh. I bet Craig’s not going to read this far down, poor sod. Catching up is hard to do.
Glenn, do you think you’re smarter than Barack Obama? Do you think you know more about the U.S. government?
To clue you in – Obama has no time for your silly conspiracy theories.
Maybe you’ve adopted the position of the American right-wing truthers (the only truthers left in the States) – Obama is also part of the NWO, and he knows all about the U.S. government having committed 911.
“isn’t Detroit bankrupt?”
Yes.
“Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008?”
No.
Oh for heaven’s sake Larry, if Obama did think the US gov did 9/11, do you think he’d tell you? Honestly, stop stirring, you’re getting dull.
Glenn: “Given the risible manner in which the 9/11 Commissions Report was undertaken, I do not see that calling for a full, independent enquiry could be considered unreasonable – particularly given the 9/11 CR was the only enquiry conducted to date, and key participants of that say it’s rubbish.”
A lot of Truthers like to make out that there are a number of politicians and people who worked on the commission that share their views. There aren’t. They complain about certain CYA activities and the possibility of political bias. The 9/11 Commission was never going to satisfy everyone given that some people on the right wanted to see the Clinton administration roasted and some people on the left wanted to see people in the Bush administration roasted.
Truthers pretend that this, in itself, undermines what they, and they alone, call the “official story” and think that if they can throw up enough dust they’ll convene a new commission who will release a new report saying the 19 guys hijacked planes and flew them into buildings (a report they won’t even bother reading although they might buy the David Ray Griffin book of the report).
“Didn’t 49 million Americans have insufficient food in 2008?”
No.
According to the USDA (and PBS, CBS, USA today, CNN etc etc) they did.
“if Obama did think the US gov did 9/11, do you think he’d tell you?”
Are you even entertaining the possibility that Obama and Rahm Emanuel think that 911 was an inside job, but they’re keeping it secret? Chomsky pointed out that if it were ever found out, it would be the end of the Republican Party for at least 50 years. So … Emanuel is doing whatever he can to turn some key Congressional districts … but you think the Obama Administration has decided to just let this one go.
Truthers are funny people.
More generalisations and blurgh from asoba, now. I don’t see they help, really. And it’s so easy to attack people, huh. Goodnight.
No, Larry, I’m saying you’re running out of things to say to resort to such non-sequiteurs. That’s because it’s all been said before, at length, tediously.