The 9/11 Post 11807

Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.

I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.

I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.

The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.

I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.

The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.

Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.

In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.

But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.

(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).

11,807 thoughts on “The 9/11 Post

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  • fwl

    “Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest”.

    I can follow KOWN’s posts but I find it difficult to follow Clark. Start off with the simple big picture and then dig into the more complex detail. Keep coming back to have a look at the big picture and see if (or how) it has changed.

    I put the Henry II quote up there because it seems so appropriate. The leader starts off with the general direction and leaves it to others to implement. Those who implement carry the can because they are involved in the detail. If you listen to how a powerful man talks you will hear that it is a vague but powerful rumble. It gives direction but no detail because that allows for deniability (because the leader’s spokesman can say that the direction was misinterpreted). The downside is in the lack of direct control over how the rumbling directive is implemented and the unexpected developments and offshoots which inevitably occur. This is why we get blow back and confusion.

    • Clark

      fwl, I’m open to questions and will do my best to clarify.

      Words are merely words, and sometimes they are connected to more than one meaning. We get so used to language that we tend not to think about what it really is. The terms “government” and “conspiracy theorist” seem to me to be leading to a lot of confusion, misunderstanding and disagreement that could be overcome.

  • Paul Barbara

    I’ll try running this past y’all again, as there were no responses:
    ‘Paul Barbara
    July 6, 2017 at 23:55
    What do you all think of this? There are some things I disagree with, such as the No.21 bus was not to block traffic, it was obvious where all the people had gone (they’d been marched off with their hands on their heads, or been kept away) and the Morningstar’ has nothing to do with the newspaper ‘Morning Star’), and it’s not all that surprising those 4 newspeople were there as their News organisations all had offices in the Shard), but there’s a lot that can’t be explained away: ‘London Bridge Borough Market’:
    I’ll add that I have been in one of the venues allegedly involved, and when I asked a barman if the pub had captured any CCTV, he said we would rather not talk about it. So later on I asked another, who honestly replied they had been instructed not to talk about it. I asked if that was by the police, and was told yes.
    So why on earth do the police gag direct witnesses (just like they did in the 7/7 ‘events)?
    Well, they wouldn’t want anything getting out that contradicted the ‘official narrative’, would they?

  • Paul Barbara


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      • Clark

        rob balsamo is an Administrator of that forum, and Member no. 1, joined 2006. He’s a pilot, and in 2014 seemed pretty damn certain that “chemtrails” are just a silly conspiracy theory.

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Clark Lots of folk July 10, 2017 at 18:18
          Lots of folk unwittingly wear blinkers, but on occasions their blinkers don’t manage to blind them to facts. In Balsamo’s case, he was unable to stomach the ‘Official Conspiracy Theory’ re Boeings etc. So, he’s on the way, already. After the test, he may have to chuck his blinkers in the bin (Laden narrative).

          • Clark

            “Lots of folk unwittingly wear blinkers”

            …but not you, eh? You can see through what KoWN calls “the consensus trance” that fools all the sheeple such as myself…

            This is what I keep saying. Those conventionally called conspiracy theorists have a sense of superiority, as do the many religious people who are sure they’re in the “right” religion, and the Hippy New Agers who are sure they can see Some Great Secret that the entire community of healthcare professionals are blind to, and so on and so on; our entire species riven by distrust and conflict.

            This fragmentation itself must be addressed. Arguing over the supposed issues is at best getting nowhere and is probably entrenching the divisions.

      • Clark

        Something that strikes me about that forum is the tone; you can tell who the (ones who conventionally would be called) conspiracy theorists are by their rather aggressive, condescending attitude. They talk to rob balsamo like the demolition theorists do Mick West on Metabunk.

        • Clark

          Their whole mode of argument is directed towards fortifying their position, and is noticeably lacking in uncertainty and curiosity.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 10, 2017 at 22:52
            ‘..and is noticeably lacking in uncertainty and curiosity’.
            Hmmm, say again?

            Bye the bye, as you are generally pretty quick to attack any position I take, it is noticeable you haven’t responded to my comment re thee London Bridge/Borough Market ‘attack’; can I take it you share my skepticism?

          • Clark

            Paul, I’ve spent considerable time looking for evidence for “chemtrails”. That’s MY time that YOU’VE wasted. Partly my own fault; respecting your assertions was my mistake because you apparently don’t respect your readers enough to practice critical thinking.

          • Clark

            Paul, sorry, because I was too harsh. You did dismiss several of the claims from the London Bridge video you linked to. And you even tried to find direct evidence from staff working near London Bridge. But I’m not really surprised that the police have advised them not to talk about events, considering the ongoing state of widespread paranoia.

            It’s that state of paranoia that’s the real problem, therefore propagating contrary paranoia can only make things worse… Which suggests my next post…

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Clark July 10, 2017 at 22:35
          Is ‘Mick West’ a buddy of yours? You often seem to put forward the same ‘debunking’.
          Surprised you haven’t commented on my London Bridge/Borough Market post. I/ve had a good snoop around the area, as it’s only about a mile from where I live.

      • Clark

        Also on that forum we have the following from MikeR. MikeR is one of the Enlightened, trying to help sheeple like rob balsamo see past their blinkers:

        “Fukushima is a huge false-flag event, bigger by far than 9/11 ever was
        – To cover their insanely-criminal tsunami, our zionist dual-citizen friends in Tel Aviv’s Colonial head office in Washington DC arranged for the best earthquake Hollywood-MGM could produce To cover for that faked earthquake, the USGS lent it’s no-longer-credible name to a monstrous LIE ….a lie of magnitude 9.0 on the Richter scale”.

        Another evidence-free rant, like Paul Barbara’s condemnation of a performance art group, or the hate-piece against Larry Silverstein that John Goss linked to. Note the similar rhetoric, the “false flag” cliché, dismissal of academia and international monitoring, and the “media coverage faked by special effects” meme – all familiar themes on this thread.

        And for some reason, these conspiracy theories target Israel just as predictably as Israel’s propaganda targets Iran and Clinton propaganda targets Putin…

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 11:54
          I’m not going to bite on that one – I have an idea why you would like me to.

        • Clark

          OK so are you saying that MikeR’s ranting that Israel caused the Fukushima meltdowns doesn’t matter because Israel has done other things?

          The page you link to accuses Israel of 9/11, while the evidence seems to suggest that Mossad knew of it but it wasn’t stopped. It looks to me like you’ll blame Israel for as much as you can whenever you can, you’ll cherry-pick, warp and amplify evidence to accuse Israel, and you approve of others just plain inventing things against Israel.

          This seems a silly tactic because it’ll just get you associated with anti-Semitism. Criticise Israel for what it does do, not what you’d apparently like it to have done.

          47 Years a Slave: A New Perspective on the Occupation

          …there are strong parallels between black slavery and Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 17:31
            I don’t subscribe to your use of ‘ranting’ in relation to MikeR’s opinion; many believe it, but you can research the arguments for yourself – I don’t want my comments being taken down. If I followed up, that is what would likely happen, as I’m sure you are also aware.
            I don.t ‘…blame Israel for as much as I can…’ at all, only where I believe there is sufficient direct or circumstantial evidence.
            I’m sure that just supporting the BDS campaign, and ‘Football Against Apartheid’, and the campaign against Hewlett Packard (for their security systems for prisons and Military applications which the sell to Israel is enough for some blinkered folk with an entrenched ‘Israel right or wrong’ attitude (but they don’t normally even admit blatant illegality and brutality; instead they whitewash anything Israel does, be it illegal settlements, torture or other War Crimes).

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Paul Barbara July 11, 2017 at 19:54
            I should have added at the end ‘would be ample reason for them to accuse me of ‘Anti-Semitism’.
            The fact that I’m not is of no concern to such people.

  • Clark

    OK I know I’ve been making some pretty strong criticisms of commenters on this thread, and I know it can feel very uncomfortable to be criticised. I know that I’m likely to be dismissed by those I’ve criticised – “Clark just defends The Official Story” – “Clark is just protecting Israel” – “Clark is just a blinkered sheeple”.

    But I mustn’t abandon hope. Maybe someone will go to the trouble of looking from my perspective and seeing the problems I’ve described.

    • Clark

      My experience suggests I’ll just be ignored. The ones conventionally labelled as conspiracy theorists will wait until I haven’t posted for a couple of days, and then begin their self-reinforcement exercises again, posting snippets of their favourite conspiracy theories, accumulating confidence as they go unscrutinised, and occasionally giving each other encouragement in the form of little endorsements and compliments…

      This serves no one. I have my own questions about 9/11, but I won’t even raise them in an environment like this. They’d just be drowned under a deluge of conspirology.

      But maybe human nature will surprise me. Maybe someone will recognise the problems I’ve described and rise to the challenge of addressing them.

  • Clark

    It’s that state of paranoia that’s the real problem, therefore propagating contrary paranoia can only make things worse… I know, the corporate media propagate state-approved paranoia and they have massive resources and audience.

    But does that mean that there is some central body that directs the creation and projection of officially approved paranoia? There is also plenty of paranoia in the opposing narratives from the alternative media. You could argue that the alternative paranoias are all reactions provoked by the mainstream narratives. But it could also be that the state of paranoia itself is quite generalised, provoking divergent but equally alarming narratives in both mainstream and alternative media.

    Maybe the best contribution we can make is to calm down, gently apply the brakes on all the narratives. There’s a massive narrative that everyone should earn and spend as much as they can.

  • Paul Barbara

    @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 14:19
    Did you actually watch the London Bridge video? How can you explain the police changing into different gear, including at least on into combat trousers (similar to one of the ‘terrorists’), behind vans very near the scene (I know; I’ve identified the exact spot)?
    Why is there no video from inside the venues, showing the attackers (there is video of the police acting like SS or under Martial Law, bellowing at innocent members of the public to ‘get down on the floor’, but not showing any hostiles?
    There were also pictures (very clear ones, like the police yelling at people to ‘get down’) of a line of innocent citizens being forced to march in a line with their hands on their heads!. Achtung!
    Why, when they had so many ‘casualties’, did they take them to the London Hospital (Whitechapel), UCLH (Blooomsbury), Kings Hospital (Denmark Hill), St. Mary’s (Paddington) and St. Thomas’ (Waterloo), yet none to Barts, which is LITERALLY five minutes away and has an A&E unit?
    Why, as always seems to be the case, is the video of three guys ‘attacking’ a person in Stoney street such poor quality? I have located the CCTV camera, and it is the events took place about 25-50 meters away from the camera, which was only about 15-20 feet high?
    I believe the staff in the pub I visited weren’t the only ones told to not talk about the incident, not because of spreading alarm or paranoia, because ‘chosen’ people were allowed to talk to the media, giving horrific details; I believe it was because the ‘Official Narrative’ might start to unravel if ordinary bar staff were allowed to tell what they had seen.

    • Clark

      I think there could be relatively mundane explanations for all the aspects mentioned, but the story is the police faked the attack, right? So who took the video of the police getting changed, and what do they think their pictures show?

  • Paul Barbara

    A very telling 5-minute video clip of how coordinated are the MSM TV channels (in the States):
    Your News Is Controlled- NBC, CBS,FOX, They All Get Their Marching Orders:

    I have seen other clips showing the same kind of coordination. Hardly a coincidence, wouldn’t you say?

      • Clark

        You think this shows there’s a rigorously orchestrated, centralised secret plot to transmit “a child’s happiness is priceless, especially on a birthday” and other such phrases?

        That would indeed very subversive political mind-control, but maybe there’s some other explanation.

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 16:29
          Have you not heard of ‘Operation Mockingbird’? Do you really believe that such an incredibly powerful tool has been discontinued? Rather, it has been ramped up exponentially.

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 16:29
          If the MSM really gave a toss about “a child’s happiness is priceless, especially on a birthday” then they would tell the truth about the wars for regime change which have, and still do, cause untold trauma to millions of children, that is if they haven’t been killed.
          Do you remember the Syrian ‘child in the ambulance’ brought to us courtesy of the ISIS PR group ‘The White Helmets’?
          Well, the family are now safe from ISIS clutches, and the father says on camera that the whole thing was a set-up:
          ‘Omran, the Syrian boy CNN used for hard-core propaganda now speaks with his father from Free Aleppo!’:

          ‘The Father Of Omran Daqneesh Says Terrorists Used His Son’s Photo For Propaganda’:

          Many ‘Truthers’ have known this was fake from day one, and have said so on comment sections of websites. Now we have proof. As you can see, the father (and son) are not under any pressure, and are over the moon at getting out from ISIS clutches alive.

          • Clark

            No of course the objective isn’t to make children happy on their birthdays. An article like that is probably just disguised advertising.

            I’d seen an article about the Syrian family and their son. I’d read articles about the White Helmets. They’re run by an ex-British army officer who moved on to supplying mercenaries. Yes it’s PR for the UK/US/IS operation against Syria, and they work with “rebels” including extremists, but calling it PR for ISIS is to overstate it, and glosses over the UK mercenary connection.

            We have to be clear on this stuff because many people are already confused to the point that they don’t bother trying to understand.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 21:19
            PR is PRECISELY what the ‘White Helmets’ are for; PR for the West’s (and others) ‘Regime Change’ plans, and PR for the ‘Moderate Rebels’ who are in reality just window dressing, and indistinguishable from ISIS/IS.
            I’m sure there is a mercenary connection, but basically they are PR and fake videos to show how ‘brutal’ the Syrain Government and Russians and other allies are. They have been caught out faking videos before.
            You should read Vanessa Beeley on the ‘White Helmets’.

          • Clark

            I have read Vanessa Beeley; that’s how I know about the mercenary connection. They’re still not PR for ISIS. “Our side” cooperate with countries that support ISIS, and seems largely unconcerned if people who’ve fought with ISIS fight with the “moderate rebels”. It’s an enormous mess, created by “our enemy’s enemy is our friend”; a cynically exploitative policy that needs to be made illegal because it treats people as weapons.

    • Paul Barbara

      Clark, the above is re your dismissal that ‘someone’ is orchestrating the MSM. Bit odd, wot?

      • Clark

        New outlets buy such stories from agencies. It’s cheap filler, part of the whole “churnalism” phenomena. Lots of actual news articles are based on the same initial reports from agencies such as Reuters. Then there’s corporate stuff that PR companies promote for no charge because they include product placement and positive spin for their sponsors.

        But it isn’t the Illuminati trying to brainwash everyone that “a child’s happiness is priceless, especially on a birthday” unless you think “the Illuminati” is actually some sort of trans-corporate hive-consciousness.

  • Paul Barbara

    By the way, the state of fear and paranoia is precisely what the state wants to induce, like in the ‘Strategy of Tension’ in Gladio plans.
    That way, the ‘people’ allow the government to erode their privacy and civil rights. In France it has ‘led to’ an ongoing state of Martial Law, or State of Emergency.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 16:19
        ‘That doesn’t mean it’s better if you do it too.’
        My intention is just the opposite to ramping up fear – I seek the truth, and to disseminate the truth about ‘False Flag’ attacks and hoaxes if I find evidence of it, thus debunking the government’s ‘Strategy of Tension’.

        • Clark

          But you’re propagating your own fears of the consequences of a corrupted media environment, rather than analysing the media to reveal the types of distortion it produces.

          Really, it’s even more scary to believe that everything from every source is fabricated except for the most fringe websites you can find. The point is to pin down the facts, reduce the uncertainty, the opposite of seizing upon any seeming anomaly and ramping it up into “everything they tell you is a lie”.

          “Them” ARE “us”. People in media presumably are submerged in the misleading mainstream consensus to a similar degree as the general population, but most of them aren’t participating in an organised covert operation to mislead. It would just require too many people. All the crews, police, crisis actors and paramedics would have to live separately from the rest of society, or their friends and family would say to them “I’m glad you recovered after I saw you on the news, I thought you were dead” etc. And you can’t say “what about the Manhattan Project” because that employment wasn’t in public and those workers weren’t broadcast all over the news.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 21:55
            ‘…“Them” ARE “us”….’ No, not at all. ‘Them’ are the PTB, the ‘Secret Government’, the Banksters, Corporation CEO’s, the ‘Intelligence Agencies’ and military chieftains.
            Sure, journalists are of ‘us’, but have been corrupted into ‘presstitutes’ to hold their jobs.
            I have previously linked to the German ex-journalist who broke ranks and blew the whistle, admitting what he and others did, and the NY Times editor who came out frankly and said they were all presstitutes, way back in the late 1800’s.
            I’m sure most of the serious journalists in the MSM are aware of 9/11 being a ‘False Flag’, but if they wrote about it the story would not be printed or shown, and they would be out on their ear.

            But you still haven’t come anywhere near demolishing the London Bridge/Borough Market video, just given generalities about thinking everything is a conspiracy theory.
            ‘if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck’.

          • Clark

            Paul, I expect my perspective is a bit different from yours. I’ve worked briefly with Roy Castle, Shirley Bassey, Rory Gallagher, Van Morrison, and lesser known but still public figures such as Dill Katz, Jon Hiseman, Barbara Thompson, Bob Calvert. I was at BBC Elstree Studios, watching the following session being videoed, and then we went outside to the Eastenders Albert Square set where I took a photo of the band that got published in one of the Yorkshire newspapers:


            The world of media can seem entirely separate, but that’s really an illusion of scale. Read Seymour Hersh and Robert Parry; they’ve developed their contacts within government, the military and the secret services.

            There’s nothing to “demolish” about the Borough Market video. There’s some video of police officers changing clothes. We don’t know why, we don’t know when it was taken. We DO know that it would be ridiculous for them to turn up dressed as police, change into civvies behind the van while permitting themselves to be videoed, then fake or perform a mass murder.

            Paul, I’m the only one that’ll tell you that you’re way out on a limb. This thread is almost entirely a conspiracy theorists’ thread; they can’t possibly all agree, but they share an unstated agreement to back each other up and to never contradict each other. It does their arguments no favours because it encourages extremity and just looks ridiculous to observers.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 12, 2017 at 01:27
            ‘…We don’t know why, we don’t know when it was taken…’
            I explained how I know it was taken at the time of the ‘terrorist attack’ in a previous reply to your question on how I know when it was taken.
            All you have are questions, but no explanation for the bizarre ‘Ploddie were’s yer trousers?’. the suddenly highly agile ‘dead’ or ‘badly wounded’ guy who suddenly jumps up and legs it when the police car trundles towards him, ‘casualties’ taken anywhere EXCEPT an A&E five minutes away, and the gagging of witnesses (I do not accept your ‘not to cause further confusion or paranoia), and the lack of any CCTV of any of the ‘terrorists’ attacking people in venues that had CCTV systems (somehow a theme running through so many ‘terrorist attacks’, like 7/7).

  • Paul Barbara

    @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 20:46
    You didn’t want to open that odd-looking link – fair enough, so I found you this link, but heard no more from you:
    ‘It is just a photo (with added ‘voice bubble’. All such sites where you are looking for, say, ‘pictures of Hillary Clinton’ and get a whole mess of them have long links like that.
    But here’s another site with the same picture:
    ‘…8. The Girl Under the Bus

    The person is not injured or run over. It’s just for shock effect, nothing else, meant to manipulate public consciousness. One can’t understand how you can go under 2 wheels of a double decker bus (note iconic London symbol) and just look like you’ve climbed under there to lie down….’

    • Clark

      You need better evidence.

      All you have is a narrative that’s extremely common among the new wave of Internet conspiracy theorists; “the uber-conspiracy faked it”, and a few snippets which are claimed to be otherwise inexplicable.

      But what the alleged uber-conspiracy would need is an extensive enclave of management and operatives who keep their activities entirely secret from the rest of society, and yet integrate and coordinate with local and national government, multiple media outlets, police, paramedics and other emergency responders, businesses and their staff local to the staged events, CCTV companies etc. etc. The uber-conspiracy would require the entire enclave to keep their secret for life, with no turn-over of staff, or they’d need to be disposing of bodies while convincing all the current members that nothing bad had happened. How on Earth would they recruit new members? Who’d join up, knowing they’d be cutting themselves off from all their friends and family for life? Or if they didn’t know the terms and conditions, how many would quickly dissent and need to be murdered?

      So you need to quantify some of this. What is the minimum number of covert operatives that could make your theory marginally possible? And you need a theory of how it’s integrated into the rest of society.

      Against such requirements, I find a few odd photos or video clips unconvincing. But don’t expect the conspiracy theorists who normally support you on this thread to mention any of this. Cowards that they are, they’re happy to let you act as their outrider.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Clark July 12, 2017 at 13:32
        Robotics is accelerating on an exponential scale. Infrastructure is already built; there will be enough ‘slaves’ left alive to maintain infrastructure, perform any menial tasks etc. Because the population will be drastically reduced, masses on consumer goods won’t be required. What ships are needed will sail with skeleton crews, maybe some with no crews at all.
        If they find they need people for a specific task, they will be cloned to the set requirement.
        The idea may seem impossible to you, certainly evil if it is planned and implemented, but that is their plan.
        The Georgia Guidestones has a population of 500 million people as optimum.

        • Clark

          You’ve obviously never worked with technology; it goes wrong a lot. I guess also that’s why you think the Twin Towers were indestructible, and have no objection to the “Israel caused the Fukushima meltdowns” conspiracy theory.

          “Cloned”! You know how cloning is done, do you? Each clone starts as a single cell. Each cloned human would need to be implanted in an adult woman, and then gestated, born, nursed, weaned, raised and educated just like anyone else!

          • Clark

            Great, you’ve shaved about 3% off each quarter-century project of raising a contributory human adult – oh wait, no you haven’t:

            “This type of technology offers the most plausible chance yet for the possibility that an artificial womb may yet become a reality”

            How many teachers did you have from infant to employment? How much time did your parent etc (or whoever) invest in socialising you? And were they all self-sufficient?

            Paul, this ain’t gonna fly any time soon. Meanwhile, we’re working on a different approach:


      • Paul Barbara

        @ Clark July 12, 2017 at 12:42
        So you can’t explain any of it, but you dismiss it anyway, rambling on about ‘how many people would have to be in the loop’.
        Well, believe the ‘Official Narrative’ if you wish, that’s your prerogative.

        • Clark

          No, I don’t believe “the official narrative”. I reject the “authorities stage all the atrocities” conspiracy theory. There’s a yawning gulf between those positions, but I can’t expect binary-thinking conspiracy theorists to recognise that.

  • Paul Barbara

    @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 20:46
    ‘… For instance, I see “cluesforum dot info” in there…’
    Turns out it’s innocent enough – It’s the September Clues site:

  • Clark

    Paul, I found the following objection to the depopulation conspiracy theory on the Pilots for 9/11 Truth “chemtrails” forum:

    – But what would be the purpose of wiping out 90% of the earths population? That is an insane idea. Anyone capable of thinking clearly would immediately realize that the people left behind, presumable the wealthy, would be reduced to poverty themselves. Who do they think pays for those tankers bringing in oil? Not the 1% who burn less than 1% of it, but the 90% who burn 90% of it. Making merchandise and machinery takes long runs to make it pay, if 90% of the people are gone, it simply won’t pay to make much merchandise, in the same high tech ways we have of making it today, because there’s no way to justify long enough runs. Factories and shipping would collapse.

    – Worse yet, the financial system would be a joke, rendered totally useless, because of all the money left laying around, by those who had expired, not to mention that no one would need any money for the next few years, since money cannot be eaten, and stores and supermarkets loaded with canned food and no customers, would be what everyone would be living off until that source ran out in a very few years. Then everyone left, millionaires and billionaires alike, would need to start growing their own food for themselves, cooking and cleaning for themselves, and without any help to hire, they’d have to move out of those mansions and into smaller more serviceable quarters. In short, all they’d accomplish is making their own lives much harder and harsher. Hardly what any sane person would want to do.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Clark July 12, 2017 at 13:32
      My reply came up above this post, for some reason.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Clark July 13, 2017 at 10:12
        Everyone knows there is a problem. The earth cannot support unlimited population growth, depletion of resources and environmental pollution. But the ‘PTB’ have a cunning plan………(though you think it’s bonkers).

        • Clark

          “Everyone knows there is a problem”

          But when the Club of Rome point it out (and launch Destertec), and the UN try to address the matter with Agenda 21, they’re all part of a diabolical plot to kill most of the population, right?

          So it’s OK to know, but evil to act, or even hold a symposium. Meanwhile, the US Religious Right with their opposition to contraception and their creepy fascination with firearms are the ones we should trust, yeah? We’re to do nothing except read the sensational stuff you post, believe it and wait for your god to save us all on Judgement Day. Have I got that right? Believers will be saved, yes?

          • Clark

            “Believers will be saved”

            I reject this. When I stopped attending the Jehovah’s Witlesses meetings it was not because I’d stopped believing; the fear of being killed by God was too strong to stop believing.

            No. It was a decision of conscience. I decided that any god which would kill the majority of the population for what they believed or happened to have been taught was an immoral god, and I would rather die with the goats than be saved with the sheep.

            I decided that if God gave me a conscience but told me to refrain from action and leave it all to Him, then He was a cruel, taunting god and I’d rather die than live in any paradise He provided.


          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 13, 2017 at 15:33
            I do understand your reasoning re God. As for a genocidal God, telling his ‘followers’ to kill every man, woman, child and their animals and take their land, I am in total agreement with you.
            For me, such a ‘God’ is not the same entity as the one Jesus called his (and our) ‘father’.
            I believe we all existed as minor spirits previous to our human existence, but sided with Lucifer. Because of this, we were sent to earth as humans for a trial, given another chance, as our sin was not as grievous as that of Lucifer and his allies.
            That is why the good get it in the neck, and the evil get the wealth and power – they ‘sell their souls’ to Lucifer/Satan in exchange for worldly power and wealth. A very bad deal, as they will find out on the Day of Judgement.
            But, of course, that is my belief. I certainly can’t prove it, any more than anyone can disprove it.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            How do I get my hands on some of that power and wealth? I’ll get right after it and worry about the bad deal later.

            Seriously though, that seems to assume that people who do not have power and wealth are virtuous by definition, and those who have power and wealth have sold their souls to Lucifer. Neither of which I find in the least convincing, I’m afraid. For example, how if someone has sold their soul to Lucifer for power and wealth and then their child inherits the power and wealth? Where does that leave the child? J

          • Paul Barbara

            John Spencer-Davis July 13, 2017 at 16:30
            ‘How do I get my hands on some of that power and wealth? I’ll get right after it and worry about the bad deal later…’
            Well, one way is sexually abusing and torturing, maybe murdering, little children. Some how I don’t think that method would appeal to you.
            ‘..Seriously though, that seems to assume that people who do not have power and wealth are virtuous by definition, and those who have power and wealth have sold their souls to Lucifer. Neither of which I find in the least convincing, I’m afraid. For example, how if someone has sold their soul to Lucifer for power and wealth and then their child inherits the power and wealth? Where does that leave the child? J….’
            The poor are not necessarily virtuous, but: ‘And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.’ Matt. 19:24
            ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 5:3)
            Blessed are those who mourn: for they will be comforted. (5:4)
            Blessed are the meek: for they will inherit the earth. (5:5)
            Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they will be filled. (5:6)
            Blessed are the merciful: for they will be shown mercy. (5:7)
            Blessed are the pure in heart: for they will see God. (5:8)
            Blessed are the peacemakers: for they will be called children of God. (5:9)
            Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)
            Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you’ Matt. 5:3-12
            ‘…For example, how if someone has sold their soul to Lucifer for power and wealth and then their child inherits the power and wealth? Where does that leave the child? J’
            That would depend on the actions of the child, but the child would have the extra burden of throwing off the life style and activities of it’s father, and perhaps even being impelled to try to amend those the father has impoverished or harmed, or their families.
            Like the saying goes: ‘The exception proves the rule’; it’s a pretty good rule of thumb that the rotten rise to the top of Corporations, Banks, Police, Military, MSM, Churches, Politics etc.

          • Clark

            “Well, one way is sexually abusing and torturing, maybe murdering, little children”

            No. That doesn’t make people wealthy and powerful, but wealth and power can provide secrecy and protection from accountability. The greater temptations available to those with wealth and power are what make it

            easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

            …and remember, just being in a country like the UK places us in the top quarter of wealth and power, globally.

            “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. […] Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”

            Hey, easy! Just become a Jehovah’s Witless or a conspiracy theorist; you can feel righteous about all the wild things you believe, and others will revile you for it, proving your righteousness!

            The corrupt tend to rise for the obvious reasons of their greater selfishness, competitiveness and lack of scruples. Democratic and political systems were developed in response to this, accountable powers to restrain unaccountable power. Of course they are imperfect, but history shows them to have improved over the long term. But all the conspiracy theories you popularise have government as their primary target. Maybe you should question the sources and possible motives…

  • Paul Barbara

    Clark, you still haven’t answered me on this one. It’s really easy – just go to the link and look at the two pictures of the ‘woman under the bus – one from the front, the other from behind.
    Do you believe that is a woman who has been run over by the double decker bus?
    @ Clark July 11, 2017 at 20:46
    You didn’t want to open that odd-looking link – fair enough, so I found you this link, but heard no more from you:
    ‘It is just a photo (with added ‘voice bubble’. All such sites where you are looking for, say, ‘pictures of Hillary Clinton’ and get a whole mess of them have long links like that.
    But here’s another site with the same picture:
    ‘…8. The Girl Under the Bus

    The person is not injured or run over. It’s just for shock effect, nothing else, meant to manipulate public consciousness. One can’t understand how you can go under 2 wheels of a double decker bus (note iconic London symbol) and just look like you’ve climbed under there to lie down….’

    • Clark

      I have no idea what claims have been made about that picture. Find me a “presstitute’s” report about it and I’ll tell you if I think the report is credible.

      But one picture on its own proves essentially nothing. I’m aware of news from Syria etc that was apparently faked for UK audiences, but such a fake would very likely be exposed if shown to Syrian audiences:

      I’m aware of the half-billion dollars spent on creating fake al-Qaeda videos in Iraq by a PR production company working for US covert agencies:

      But what you propagate is like the stuff from that idiot Chris Spivey. I’ll try telling people there’s faked news about, shall I? And then they’ll browse into some of your links and debunk it for themselves and decide I was a deluded conspiracy theorist leading them up the garden path and go back to the BBC. Great.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Clark July 13, 2017 at 14:20
        Have you looked at the picture? If so, does that look like a woman who has been run over by a double decker bus?
        There is absolutely no doubt it was taken on the day of the ‘so-called’ terror attack on Westminster Bridge.
        Do you think she is just having a funny half hour? Maybe she thought if she hid her head under the bus, the ‘terrorists’ might not see her butt sticking up in the air, bit like an ostrich.
        Simple question – does it look like a woman who has been run over by a double decker bus? And the cop’s nonchalance is a bit odd, too.
        Maybe he was thinking ‘if there weren’t all these cameras about, I could have my wicked way with ‘her’ before she gets carted off to the morgue’.

        • Clark

          Yes, I’ve looked at the picture.

          I’ve never seen even one person who’s been run over by a bus. I’d have to see twenty or so before I could tell you if that looked typical or not.

          Of course, I’ve seen fakes of people run over in fictional screen “entertainment”, and it looks nothing like any of those.

          Is that photo part of what you call “the official story”? Were there mainstream sources presenting that photo and saying it showed a woman who’d fallen in front of a bus which didn’t stop until two of its wheels had passed over her?

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Clark July 13, 2017 at 14:20
        Much to my surprise, there are articles in the Mail Online. LBC and Telegraph, but not the extremely telling ones I want you to look at; the papers obviously saw that the hype didn’t match the picture:
        ‘The bridge of death: Pieced together for the first time, the exact points where the victims fell on Westminster Bridge during three minutes of carnage’:
        ‘How the terror attack at Westminster Bridge unfolded’:
        “I Saw Boots Hit The Window On The Top Deck Of The Bus”:
        ‘….”I jumped up…I heard a scream. Then I looked at the pavement down below and I saw a girl’s legs sticking out of the back of my bus, under the wheel, a woman on the bridge reeling in pain.”
        Jumping under the bus to try to save the woman, Robert saw the true horror the scene: “She’d been crushed, she’d been crushed.”…’
        But you need to see the other pictures as well, because in the Mail one you only see a white sheet covering ‘something’ on the ground. And then answer this simple question: Does that look like a woman who has been crushed? And don’t you think there would be an awful lot of blood on her legs and on the road?

        • Clark

          I’m not certain there would be a lot of blood – like I said, that’s in the movies, and I have no relevant experience. Vehicle tyre pressures are actually quite low; maybe bodies don’t burst like in special effects. Actually, if you’re saying it’s all faked, why doesn’t it look more like a movie?

          But really, unless you’re saying that all such incidents are faked, what difference does it make? Are you saying that the UK government doesn’t support and exploit extremist ideology and the governments that promote it? Are you saying that UK/US/Israeli foreign policy provokes no radicalisation?

          Are you saying that such violence never occurs? What about the example Craig was involved in directly? Is he part of your media fakery conspiracy? The authorities were playing it down rather than making it up:

          The real message is that Muslims in Muslim countries are far more likely to be the victims of such ideological violence than us in the UK. Every time you try to dismiss one of these incidents, you deny a problem that’s much worse for Muslims than for us. You should be pointing out that such incidents happen every day in Muslim countries and our media treat it as routine, and that’s why our media has no right to make such a fuss on the rare occasions that it happens here, especially since that same media promotes the wars, collusion and economic exploitation that encourage such extremism.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 14, 2017 at 01:12
            Why do you beat about the bush, and go all round the houses?
            I asked you a very simple question – does that picture look like a woman who has been crushed under the wheels of a double decker bus? Tyre pressures don’t come into it – a double decker weighs about twelve and a half TONS.
            I take it obliquely through all your waffling that you DON’T believe that is a picture of a woman crushed under the wheels of a bus – am I correct in that assumption?
            Also, remember the bus was moving at the time (otherwise the ‘lady’ would not have been run over. so why is ‘she’ immediately behind the wheels? Can a bus stop that quickly, virtually instantaneously?

          • Clark

            Now don’t start conspiracy theorist bullying. I DON’T KNOW. And I suspect you don’t either. How many people run over by buses have YOU seen?

            I’m sick of this. “Look at this; it’s anomalous, I tell you. Therefore the theory I’m pushing, all of it, is absolutely true, and if you won’t accept what I’m saying then you’re serving the Evil Ones”.

            Pressuring me on ONE, extremely narrow issue when you haven’t responded to ANY of the points I’ve raised. All people of Muslim descent are angels, right, and could never be drawn into extremism? Except in distant countries, and that’s different, yes?

          • Clark

            And typically, your physics is at fault. Air pressure is exerting the weight of a small car upon you right now, nearly 15 pounds per square inch:


            The wheels of a vehicle exert almost the same pressure as they’re inflated to – Newton’s equal and opposite reaction, which I’m repeatedly accused of denying.

          • Nikko

            “The wheels of a vehicle exert almost the same pressure as they’re inflated to – Newton’s equal and opposite reaction, which I’m repeatedly accused of denying.”

            While that may be true, there is no getting away from the fact that while the wheel was going over her she’d be subjected to 25% of the weight of the whole bus.

          • Clark

            “there is no getting away from the fact…”

            We don’t know. With traditional suspension, more than a quarter because the spring would compress, as would the air in the tire. With active suspension it could even possibly be less than a quarter due to the system compensating. Camber, incline, cornering and braking would all also make differences. Nit-picking, I know, but that quarter is not quite such a simple fact.

  • Paul Barbara

    @ Nikko July 14, 2017 at 18:10
    Don’t waste your time; due to tyre pressure, being run over by a double decker bus would be like being squshed under a bag of feathers, according to our resident ‘Official Narrative’ supporter.
    I’m wasting my time also; I hope some people are following this, who have not commented, and have looked at the pictures I linked to.
    Dead simple – does it look like the body of a woman who has been run over by a double decker, 12 1/2 ton bus? Clark says he ‘doesn’t know’.
    I am seriously considering not responding to him at all.

      • Clark

        How many crushed people have you seen?

        Oh just ignore me. Your assurances must be a great comfort to her family.

        • KingofWelshNoir

          I won’t link directly because it is too gory, but if you type ‘person crushed by bus’ into Google image you will get quite a few images of people after being run over by buses. Some with heads flattened to pancakes, others with viscera spewing out of crushed torsos. Check it out. Real shots of real accidents have a quality about them that is unmistakeable. No one would look at such pictures and wonder even for a second if they were staged. It was the same with some (but not all) of those ISIS beheading videos. They didn’t look real to me, so I went online and found real footage of people being beheaded, by Mexican drug cartel gangsters. It wasn’t a pleasant task, but it confirmed what I suspected.

          • Clark

            KingofWelshNoir, the critical question is if any didn’t show a lot of blood.

            Do you regard the Westminster Bridge attack to be fake?

          • KingofWelshNoir

            Clark: ‘KingofWelshNoir, the critical question is if any didn’t show a lot of blood.’

            You are moving the goal posts. Paul’s question was, ‘Does she look like someone who has been run over by a bus?’
            My answer is no she doesn’t.
            I haven’t watched the video, if I do, I’ll let you know what I think.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ KingofWelshNoir July 15, 2017 at 09:36
        Thanks. I will not despair, and I’ll keep posting, except I find it exasperating trying to reason or dialogue with Clark.
        Tyre pressures have Sweet FA to do with weight, except the negligible weight of the amount of air in the tyres..
        If you put a bus on a weighbridge, and it shows 12 1/2 tons, then you inflate the tyres way over their correct pressure, it will still weigh 12 1/2 tons, and if you totally deflate the tyres, it will still weigh 12 1/2 tons.
        Springs and dampers don’t effect the weight, but lead to a smoother ride.
        Another thing – the distribution of weight is more on the rear wheels, which is why there are two sets of two wheels at the back,
        She has supposedly been run over by two of the back wheels.

        • Clark

          Nikko, if you have a shred of intellectual integrity, please correct Paul’s misapprehensions.

          There’s no point in me doing it because I’m one of the inferior ones, a mere sheeple. I’ll believe whatever I’m told. Or so I’m repeatedly told.

          • Clark

            A heavy club is more likely to draw blood than a much lighter scalpel, because weight draws blood; pressure has Sweet FA to do with drawing blood.

            Therefore, all mainstream media is completely truthful. Baa.

          • Nikko

            Clark, there is not much wrong with what Paul has written. Of course, if he was writing a rigorous physics treatise then his use of language could have been a tad more precise but as this is a discussion forum and his meaning is very clear, I think that you are up to your usual tricks of calling faults where none exist.

          • Clark

            Yes, Paul’s meaning is very clear. He says that two photos must be fake because there isn’t blood everywhere, and being crushed by tires would necessarily spill blood, which would necessarily appear in those two photos.

            And you agree that overall force matters more than pressure, so a large rubber club is more likely to draw blood than is a sharp knife, for instance.

    • Nikko

      Clark’s modus operandi is to take physics and use it out of context to make his point. When challenged he waffles or runs away.

      The woman does not look like she’s been run over by a bus. Your posts on this subject have been “news” to me so please do not stop.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Nikko July 15, 2017 at 12:18
        I don’t know where Clark gets his ‘science’ from – if his BS about tyre pressures affecting weight has anything to do with it.
        As I commented above:
        ‘….Tyre pressures have Sweet FA to do with weight, except the negligible weight of the amount of air in the tyres..
        If you put a bus on a weighbridge, and it shows 12 1/2 tons, then you inflate the tyres way over their correct pressure, it will still weigh 12 1/2 tons, and if you totally deflate the tyres, it will still weigh 12 1/2 tons.
        Springs and dampers don’t effect the weight, but lead to a smoother ride.
        Another thing – the distribution of weight is more on the rear wheels, which is why there are two sets of two wheels at the back,
        She has supposedly been run over by two of the back wheels…..’

        • Clark

          “Springs and dampers don’t effect the weight”

          But they do affect the forces suffered by the victim.

          “which is why there are two sets of two wheels at the back”

          Which reduces the pressure.

          Isn’t that right, honest Nikko?

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 16, 2017 at 01:29
            Tons of weight is STILL tons of weight, which a human body cannot withstand, even though it is spread over two tyre widths. Run over by two wheels, means she would have borne the total weight that was supported by those two wheels.
            Your like a dog chasing it’s tail – you won’t give up till you get too dizzy with your own circular thinking:
            ‘I’m right, you couldn’t possibly be right, therefore I’m right’. Logical, ain’t it? The dog thinks it’s great!

      • Clark

        This is interesting, but so far all I have is the word of the writer of the yournewswire report, Baxter Dmitry. I have followed many links and tried searching for Malcom Howard, but everything seems to stem from the one report. And the recent part of Malcom Howard’s story is missing; there is no account of how the story came to the attention of Baxter Dmitry or yournewswire.

        I can ask that others on this thread do more digging, but probably I’ll be ignored. Uncritically swallowing stories which reinforce the alt-narrative seems compulsory among conspiracy theorists.

        On the off-chance that anyone does bother to dig further (it’s called “doing your own research”), a typo may be complicating matters. The subject’s first name is given as “Malcom” whereas the more usual spelling is “Malcolm” with two Ls.

        The following absolutely has to be established: does this Malcom Howard really exist? Did he really work for the CIA? Did he really say what the report alleges? Is he prepared to name any colleagues in this alleged operation? Also of interest is who else he tried to tell, where the report originated, and how it has propagated.

        I won’t get my hopes up I know I’m just a sheeple and not a True Believer.

        • Clark

          Browsing through his other articles, Baxter Dmitry looks far more like a typical alt-Right pro-Trump sensationalist and propagandist than an investigative journalist.

          Reminder; please help me dig deeper, and if you find anything, please try to follow it back to its source.

    • Paul Barbara

      Unfortunately, the ‘confession’ is a hoax:
      Here is part of an email I received:
      ‘…Your News Wire is run by Sean Adl Tabatabai and is a “click bait” site.
      It is complete intel disinfo, mixed with half truths then subverted.
      Sean disappeared with the TPV funds which were in his own paypal account….’

      ‘….He turned TPV into a joke with trivia and his gay wedding which took precedence over anything remotely interesting and stopped my show in its tracks.
      His middle name ADL was used as the TPV logo (backwards)…’

      Sorry about that, but it fooled a lot of people, including Paul Craig Roberts.

      • Clark

        Paul, thanks.

        “…it fooled a lot of people, including Paul Craig Roberts”

        That’s why you need critical thinking, and should stop dismissing people like me as merely “supporters of the official narrative”. OK, this one got debunked, but we’ve no idea how much else has been elevated to the status of urban myth and now goes unquestioned.

        Still, I have little hope that the conspiracy theorists’ conspiracy against questioning will abate any time soon. Just ignore me; I’m just a sheeple.

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘The Media Coverage on Syria is the Biggest Media Lie of our Time’ — Interview with Flemish Priest in Syria:

    ‘….Father Daniel: “The idea that a popular uprising took place against President Assad is completely false. I’ve been in Qara since 2010 and I have seen with my own eyes how agitators from outside Syria organized protests against the government and recruited young people. That was filmed and aired by Al Jazeera to give the impression that a rebellion was taking place. Murders were committed by foreign terrorists, against the Sunni and Christian communities, in an effort to sow religious and ethnic discord among the Syrian people. While in my experience, the Syrian people were actually very united.

    Before the war, this was a harmonious country: a secular state in which different religious communities lived side by side peacefully. There was hardly any poverty, education was free, and health care was good. It was only not possible to freely express your political views. But most people did not care about that.”

    Interviewer: Mother Agnès-Mariam, of your Mar Yakub (“Saint Jacob”) monastery, is accused of siding with the regime. She has friends at the highest level.

    Father Daniel: “Mother Agnès-Mariam helps the population: she has recently opened a soup kitchen in Aleppo, where 25,000 meals are prepared five times a week. Look, it is miraculous that we are still alive. We owe that to the army of Assad’s government and to Vladimir Putin, because he decided to intervene when the rebels threatened to take power.

    When thousands of terrorists settled in Qara, we became afraid for our lives. They came from the Gulf States, Saudi Arabia, Europe, Turkey, Libya, there were many Chechens. They formed a foreign occupation force, all allied to al-Qaeda and other terrorists. Armed to the teeth by the West and their allies with the intention to act against us, they literally said: “This country belongs to us now.” Often, they were drugged, they fought each other, in the evening they fired randomly. We had to hide in the crypts of the monastery for a long time. When the Syrian army chased them away, everybody was happy: the Syrian citizens because they hate the foreign rebels, and we because peace had returned.”….’

    Will he get reported in the MSM? The MSM are not just ‘presstitutes’, they are aiding and abetting War Crimes.

    • Dave

      The staged events are easily debunked, but no one, not including 9/11 and 7/7, apart perhaps from the patsy dies, for the practical reasons of maintaining the morale of the crisis actors involved and because its easier to move on to the next ‘attack’ without having to worry about inquests, investigations and protest groups formed by the victims.

      This is why the staged events are immediately followed by national one minute silences as a manipulative way to prevent the public asking questions or getting answers on the basis such Q&A is unseemly at a time when we should all be in mourning for the victims.

      You just need a controlled media promoting the ‘terror’ narrative and telling you what you see on the basis of pictures that self-evidently tell a different story.

      • Clark

        So when the ideology supported by the US/UK incites violence in Syria, it’s real, but when it incites violence in London it’s media fakery. Logical?

        • Clark

          Ah, I get it. The points of the compass are the determinant. Violence in the east equals violence, whereas violence in the west equals fakery, with 100% correlation.

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Clark July 15, 2017 at 13:49
          I have posted links to False Flag hoaxes in Syria and Iraq – the only difference is there Assad and Russia are blamed, here the Muslims are blamed.
          Also, of course, much more of the terror attacks are real in Syria and Iraq, as Muslims are deemed highly expendable by our ‘Leaders’, Intel and military.

          • Clark

            The narrative of false-flag that you promote is entirely counter-productive. Most such attacks are real, and promoted by an ideology SUPPORTED by US/Israel/UK policy, because it conveniently raises extremists who can be exploited.

            We need to force our governments into admitting our side’s responsibility, not pretend that the problem is fabricated.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 15, 2017 at 17:02
            ‘…The narrative of false-flag that you promote is entirely counter-productive. Most such attacks are real…’
            So say you, who offhandedly dismiss any evidence I present – well. I am not in the slightest bit inclined to take your ‘opinion’ as fact.
            The ‘narratives’ I promote are not in my view counter-productive, but attempts to get at the truth, which we won’t get from the Banksters, politicians and MSM.
            Here is another way the PTB and their lackeys, the MSM, demonise Muslims:

            ‘…I’m watching The Newburgh Sting, a fabulous documentary about the FBI’s operation to ensnare four impoverished, naive New York men into an informant-driven fake terror plot. In the film, former FBI assistant director Thomas Fuentes defends the FBI’s conduct in the Newburgh Four case. He also says this:

            ‘If you’re submitting budget proposals for a law enforcement agency, for an intelligence agency, you’re not going to submit the proposal that ‘We won the war on terror and everything’s great,’ cuz the first thing that’s gonna happen is your budget’s gonna be cut in half. You know, it’s my opposite of Jesse Jackson’s ‘Keep Hope Alive’—it’s ‘Keep Fear Alive.’ Keep it alive.’

            In the context of an interview about a case in which a paid FBI informant is alleged to have offered destitute men a quarter of a million dollars to execute an attack, a former assistant director of the FBI admits it’s in the bureau’s best interest to inflate the supposed terror threat. That’s remarkably candid, and profoundly disturbing.

            Fuentes’ comments come at 1:06:22 in the video above. But do find a better version of the film somewhere and watch it in its entirety. The new COINTELPRO is alive and well….’

            ‘Why Does the FBI Have to Manufacture its Own Plots if Terrorism and ISIS Are Such Grave Threats?’:

            ‘…They then find another Muslim who is highly motivated to help disrupt a “terror plot”: either because they’re being paid substantial sums of money by the FBI or because (as appears to be the case here) they are charged with some unrelated crime and are desperate to please the FBI in exchange for leniency (or both). The FBI then gives the informant a detailed attack plan, and sometimes even the money and other instruments to carry it out, and the informant then shares all of that with the target. Typically, the informant also induces, lures, cajoles, and persuades the target to agree to carry out the FBI-designed plot. In some instances where the target refuses to go along, they have their informant offer huge cash inducements to the impoverished target….’

            Needless to say (or it should be), the same crap goes down here, in conjunction with real and hoax False Flag ‘attacks’.


            ‘…The alleged would-be terrorist is 20-year-old Christopher Cornell (above), who is unemployed, lives at home, spends most of his time playing video games in his bedroom, still addresses his mother as “Mommy” and regards his cat as his best friend; he was described as “a typical student” and “quiet but not overly reserved” by the principal of the local high school he graduated in 2012.
            The affidavit filed by an FBI investigative agent alleges Cornell had “posted comments and information supportive of [ISIS] through Twitter accounts.” The FBI learned about Cornell from an unnamed informant who, as the FBI put it, “began cooperating with the FBI in order to obtain favorable treatment with respect to his criminal exposure on an unrelated case.” Acting under the FBI’s direction, the informant arranged two in-person meetings with Cornell where they allegedly discussed an attack on the Capitol, and the FBI says it arrested Cornell to prevent him from carrying out the attack.
            Family members say Cornell converted to Islam just six months ago and claimed he began attending a small local mosque. Yet The Cincinnati Enquirer could not find a single person at that mosque who had ever seen him before, and noted that a young, white, recent convert would have been quite conspicuous at a mosque largely populated by “immigrants from West Africa,” many of whom “speak little or no English.”…..’

          • Clark

            Tim Ireland originally set up Craig’s blog; his own blog is called Bloggerheads. Tim Ireland busted Glenn Jenvey; look it up if you don’t know the story.

            Yes, entrapment is a major problem. The Christmas Tree Bomb was one, wasn’t it? But there are BIG differences between entrapment and media fakery. Entrapment involves people planning, preparing, attempting or even succeeding in executing ACTUAL atrocities, not fake ones.

            Paul, to me it doesn’t at all look like you’re trying to find the truth. Rather, you seem to assume that any widely held position necessarily directly contradicts the truth; you trawl the most marginal websites for the most extreme narratives you can find, very often ones that accuse Israel in some way or other. You seem to decide what you’ll believe according to your preconceived opinions. Sorry, but that is genuinely my opinion. You have actually expressed your opposition to critical thinking, leaving what?

            “So say you, who offhandedly dismiss any evidence I present”

            Well, let’s take a recent example. You posted ‘CIA Agent Confesses On Deathbed: ‘We Blew Up WTC7 On 9/11’ and I applied critical thought:


            I did NOT “offhandedly dismiss” it; I suggested ways to test it, I engaged with the argument. Then someone e-mailed and told you it was false:


            What if you hadn’t been told? No one here would have followed my suggestions; you lot never do, which is why I call you “conspiracy theorists”. You lot would have accused me of being a weak-minded sheeple in the consensus trance, supporting the official story to avoid cognitive dissonance – just because you didn’t know the story to be fabricated.

            Here you are insisting that atrocities are “media fakes”, but it’s you lot who are keen to propagate fakes!

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 16, 2017 at 00:44
            ‘…What if you hadn’t been told?…’
            But I not only was told once, but a number of times subsequently. I slipped up, and admitted to it.

            Before long, next month I believe, the full analysis pf the WTC 7 collapse will be available, and NOT from compromised government stooges like NIST.
            Then we should see who has been barking up a gum tree!

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 16, 2017 at 00:44
            As I’m sure you are aware, I was not talking about the ‘Confession’ with that remark, but with things like London Bridge, Westminster Bridge, ‘Chemtrails’ and so on, which you do dismiss offhandedly.

          • Clark

            “next month I believe, the full analysis pf the WTC 7 collapse will be available[…] Then we should see who has been barking up a gum tree!”

            Paul, PLEASE, for the record, state my position on WTC7.

            NEXT – Professor Hulsey has stated that the team is NOT investigating controlled demolition or otherwise. They are working with the simulation of Building 7 until they determine which structural components would have to fail to induce collapse as seen. It is purely physical simulation, without consideration of possible CAUSES of the failures.

            “things like London Bridge, Westminster Bridge, ‘Chemtrails’ and so on, which you do dismiss offhandedly”

            I have dismissed these on the paucity of the evidence and argument, not offhandedly. By contrast, when Susan Lindauer was dismissed as a fantasist, I looked her up and found that her claim to have worked with the CIA to communicate with the Iraqi government was corroborated. I have corroborated other things too, but haven’t mentioned them since because it’s almost impossible to hold a sensible conversation here.

    • Paul Barbara

      I should have highlighted:
      ‘….As if the marine life isn’t struggling enough already by the vast amounts of plastic in the oceans, the Japanese are now talking about dumping these tanks with nuclear wastewater directly into the sea because they cannot keep building and storing these reservoirs, Whitby told TRT.

      Also, to this day researchers are uncertain whether the melted cores are still within the containment structures or if they have burrowed through the vessels, contaminating the groundwater that ends up in the Pacific Ocean. Since many robots, sent out to assess the damage, have been destroyed due to the high levels of radiation that melts their electronics, it is tough to get this information.

      Recently, however, one camera lasted long enough to show that molten core debris has burned through the bottom of the inner reactor wall. The radioactive debris is now burrowed deep into the foundations of the reactor, causing the highest radiation levels measured around the reactor since the triple core meltdown six years ago. Until these cores can be retrieved, the reactors will keep leaking radioactive material into the groundwater.

      According to Japan’s former prime minister, the current Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is lying about the situation being under control. Abe has also been criticized for forcing more than 6,000 people to return to their home in areas that are still highly contaminated zones.

      According to the Japanese government, Japan will be safe by 2020. Therefore, it will hold the Olympic baseball and softball in the Fukushima area to show “Japan is cool,” even if their reactors are still posing a serious threat…..’

      And the Olympic Committee will roll over and accept Fukushima is safe for their Olympic Games venue – they may be rather dissapointed at how many potential Olympic athletes or audience vote with their feet, and say ‘Up your’s, Abe’.

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘Irrefutable Film Footage Of Climate Engineering Aerosol Spraying’:

    A short but very clear 2 – minute video clip that shows the sprayed substances are not ‘contrails’, and don’t come from the engines.

    It is followed by a 7 – minute clip, explaining why high bypass turbojet engines extremely rarely give of any ‘contrails’, but can certainly spray ‘chemtrails’ from nozzles:

    • Clark

      I recommend against visiting; I’ve looked at several pages and they’re all sensationalised nonsense.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Clark July 16, 2017 at 00:51
        Thanks for the recommendation, Clark.
        Coming from you, that should encourage truth seekers to check out the excellent website.

        • Clark

          “Coming from you…” etc.

          Why’s that, Paul? Please tell me what’s wrong with ME. Please explain in clear language.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 16, 2017 at 01:11
            I believe my posts on this thread, which you almost always attack, are believed by or useful to people, so your attacks are going to reflect on the way you are perceived – simple, really.
            I’m surprised you needed further explanation, though you may not agree with my reasoning.

          • Clark

            But Paul, you seem to post untenable theories precisely to attract criticism:

            Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)
            – Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you’ Matt. 5:3-12

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 16, 2017 at 02:01
            ‘But Paul, you seem to post untenable theories precisely to attract criticism:

            – Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)
            – Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you’ Matt. 5:3-12 ‘

            As a Christian believer, the Beatitudes are not untenable.
            You may find them so, I don’t. But unjust ‘..revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely…’
            does not feel very good, and I have difficulty accepting it with good grace.
            I must stress here, I am not talking about disagreements on blogs here.
            That I can take with a pinch of salt. It is real persecution I find difficult.

          • Clark

            What I’m saying is that you’ve made the passage into self-fulfilling prophecy. You find unsupportable arguments and then promote them. By attracting what you regard as “offhand dismissal” ie. “others revile you”, you cast yourself in the role of righteous prophet.

            You should remember I’ve had to escape this myself. I was a Jehovah’s Witless. They go from door to door, believing they know important things that others don’t, and that it’s a matter of life or death to spread the word. And the unpopularity of its reception is its own proof of correctness. Too easy; doing right is harder than that.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Clark July 16, 2017 at 02:01
            You’re at it again. I made it very plain I was NOT talking about comments on blogs – i was talking about the real world.
            If that wasn’t plain, it’s no wonder you find real Engineers and Architects arguments faulty – how on earth can you expect to understand their arguments, when you can’t even understand a few simple sentences like:
            ‘I must stress here, I am not talking about disagreements on blogs here.
            That I can take with a pinch of salt. It is real persecution I find difficult.’
            Is that so hard to understand, but you have to twist it to use an example which I specifically excluded.

            You ‘don’t know’ if the woman looks like she was crushed. So you also don’t believe this eyewitness (neither do I, incidentally):
            ‘LBC speaks to a man who was on the top deck of a bus on Westminster Bridge when today’s devastating terror attack began.
            (Caution: Some may find this account distressing)
            “Oh God, it was horrible,” started Robert. “We were caught in traffic, as there always is going across that bridge.
            “All of a sudden I saw two Chelsea boots hit the window on the top deck. I thought someone had chucked their shoes at the window.
            “I jumped up…I heard a scream. Then I looked at the pavement down below and I saw a girl’s legs sticking out of the back of my bus, under the wheel, a woman on the bridge reeling in pain.”
            Jumping under the bus to try to save the woman, Robert saw the true horror the scene: “She’d been crushed, she’d been crushed.”
            Robert also came across the boyfriend of the woman who was thrown into the Thames during the chaotic scenes.
            The boyfriend told Robert: “I’ve got her mobile phone, I’ve got her passport, but I don’t know where she’s gone. I know we got hit.”
            “It was just carnage. Carnage. Absolute carnage.”
            Iain Dale then spoke to Robert, urging him to get counselling help, and explaining why unforgiving accounts of terror attacks like today’s are important.
            “We can’t hide that from people. We have to recognise the viciousness they’re willing to indulge in.”

            “She’d been crushed, she’d been crushed.”
            Also, he ‘jumped’ under the bus? How on earth can someone ‘jump under a bus’ (unless they mean ‘in front of a bus), unless they are only a few inches high?

            Also: ‘Iain Dale then spoke to Robert, urging him to get counselling help, and explaining why unforgiving accounts of terror attacks like today’s are important.
            “We can’t hide that from people. We have to recognise the viciousness they’re willing to indulge in.”
            So why do the police gag staff in venues that the ‘terrorists’ invaded?

  • Paul Barbara

    Here’s the answer to why the ‘Crazies’ would devastate the earth, or risk it (similar to the ‘Dr. Strangelove’ idea:
    ‘Survival Condos’:
    Of course, the ‘Chosen Ones’ of government, military, Intel, Banksters etc. will be protected in much larger ‘Continuity of Government’ facilities; these ‘Condos’ are for the rich who don’t qualify.
    Russia not long ago had a 40 million person ‘Civil Defense’ exercise, and an even larger one of 60 million person exercise some years back.
    But for the States, if you’ve got the dosh, you’ve got a five-year guarantee of life after ‘Armageddon’ (or so they are told).
    The poor or middle class can go whistle.
    Seems no one is telling these rich suckers that ‘nuclear winter’ will last more than five years…
    ‘Life after a nuclear war revealed: Computer models reveal Earth would suffer a 20-year-long winter and worldwide famine’:

  • Dave

    The staged events are not just to promote the ‘terror’ narrative, but to control it, like a tap. If they were real they would become uncontrollable and back-fire. That is people would argue the atrocity is a reason to keep out of rather than support foreign wars.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Dave July 16, 2017 at 08:47
      ‘…If they were real…’
      There is another point about that question. Why were the London Bridge/Borough Market ‘terrorist attacks’ done with knives? Any two-bit drug dealer can get their hands on a machine pistol – can a dedicated ‘terrorist group’, or individual, not do the same? Imagine if these attacks were real, and they were armed with AK 47’s or machine pistols. But no, they settle for close-quarter knives, despite the far more deadly guns or bombs.
      But I can think of far easier ways of committing far more devastating attacks, with a much greater chance of getting clean away so they could repeat the attacks. I won’t name them, but any reasonable person would be able to work them out.
      Even a remarkably easy nuclear one, which would necessitate the evacuation of most of London – I do know what I’m talking about, but obviously won’t spell it out. If the UK and Europe were really ‘crawling with terrorists’, why so few attacks?
      The ‘plots’ the police foil are set-ups, like in the States.

  • KingofWelshNoir

    ‘All of a sudden I saw two Chelsea boots hit the window on the top deck. I thought someone had chucked their shoes at the window.’

    I did wonder why the woman ‘crushed’ by the bus appeared to be wearing no shoes. So, the bus hit her with such force that her shoes came off and hit the window on the top deck. And a brilliantly observant passenger had time to notice they were Chelsea boots that hit the window.

    • Dave

      Interestingly another victim on the pavement wasn’t wearing any shoes either. Some view this as a “tag” sign regarding those involved.

    • Paul Barbara

      Bobm July 16, 2017 at 21:01
      I posted about this case previously, but it appears to be a hoax.
      There is a warning on the ICH site, as well: ‘Note – Please read the comments below, which indicate that the author of this article has a dubious history of “False News”

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘Canadian Government Rolls Out The Most Disturbing App Ever’:

    ‘….As you’ll have seen from the creepy coverage of the app, Carrot Rewards is constantly bugging you to get your flu shot, or rewarding you for successfully completing propaganda quizzes about flu shots and about other forms of protection and treatment offered up by big pharma-approved medical “science.” And that’s not all! The app will also train you to “care [more] about the environment” (presumably by memorizing chapter and verse of the Holy Bible of Climatology) and, bizarrely, to “be more financially literate because financial literacy is one of the most important predeterminants of health.”

    Yes, that’s right, the same Canadian government that purposefully converted its public central bank into a Federal Reserve clone and stewarded over more financial follies, scandals, debacles and disasters than you could shake a stick at is now presuming to teach citizens financial literacy by dishing out reward points on a behavior-modification app. There are no words…

    The worst part of all of this is that the Carrot Rewards app and the many similar ones that are coming soon to your country, wherever you live, are the fulfillment of humanity’s worst nightmare: the merging of behavioral science with game design and governmental control. As Carnegie Mellon’s Jesse Schell pointed out in his “Most Disturbing Presentation Ever” in 2010, all three of these fields of study provide windows into human nature and potential for behavior modification. Up until now, though, we’ve only had behavioral scientists trying to design games and game designers trying to manipulate behavior. But what if we had governments coming up with the desired outcomes, then behavioral scientists determining how to manipulate users into producing those outcomes, then game designers figuring out the best way to put those ideas into a game? Wouldn’t that be the most powerful and effective way to alter the habits and behaviors of a given population?….’

    And where do we go from here? Well, perhaps ‘report a neighbor’, ‘report a parent’, ‘report suspicious behavior’, ‘report someone speaking out against government oversea military intervention’ apps, once the ‘Sheeple’ are hooked.
    Double points for anyone sent to ‘Re-education Centers’ due to your information.

    As though it isn’t already way beyond the pale with the ‘War Games’ kids (and adults) ‘play’ on their computers and ‘Smart’ (killer radiation – especially 5G) phones.

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘The US Deep State: Sabotaging Putin-Trump Ceasefire Agreement in Syria’:

    ‘…The most important agreement concerned a ceasefire in southern Syria along the border with Israel and Jordan. This is a very active area of fighting, and so the ceasefire obviates the possibility of dangerous confrontations between the United States and Russia, as well as between Syria and Israel, which could escalate out of control as seen when the US Air Force shot down a Syrian Su-22 jet as well an Iranian drone. Israel, from its position in the occupied Golan Heights, has repeatedly struck the Syrian Arab Army (SAA), in a desperate effort to halt its gains against al Qaeda and Daesh terrorists….’

    Yes, on the face of it, strange bedfellows, but of course it fits the ‘Yinon Plan’.

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘Anti-Trump / Anti-Russia Campaign Fails’:

    ‘….The Mounk tweet is a series of lies:

    Need a reminder of the human cost of dictatorship? All these are journalists who criticized Putin–and died under mysterious circumstances
    The President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin is dully elected and not a dictator. The Russian Federation may not be a “liberal democracy”, but it is a democracy. The picture is old. It shows all Russian journalists who died during their work since 1991. Most of them died as war- or crime-correspondents and were not involved in politics at all. The death of most of those journalists is not mysterious. Getting blown up by artillery during the wars in Chechnya, Yugoslavia or Ukraine is no mystery at all. Most of these journalists never criticize Putin. They were already dead before Putin had any significant political role.
    The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) lists 82 killed Russian journalists since 1992, most of them died due to war or related to civil crimes or corruption. There are about 80 portraits of journalists in the picture Mounk tweeted.
    Two recognizable portraits and names therein are of Vlad Listyev, a TV entertainment producer killed in 1995 over some controversy about lucrative advertisement on public TV. Another portrait is of Dmitry Kholodov, killed in 1994 while investigating mafia connections within the Russian military. At the time of their death Putin was a minor bureaucrat in Saint Petersburg. He did not gain power until he became acting president at the end of 1999.
    According to the CPJ numbers more Russian journalists were killed during the eight years of Yeltsin’s presidency (1992-2000) than in the 17 years of Putin’s presidencies since. Mounk claims “All these are journalists who criticized Putin …” when more than half of them were already dead before Putin became known and to power. It was during the time of the “Harvard boys” who robbed Russia blind that most of these journalist were killed. The Russian system, thanks to the Harvard driven “reforms” and criminal privatization under Yeltsin, is a rough terrain for investigating oligarchs and mafia businesses. But there is no evidence, none at all, that Putin was ever involved in the decease of any journalist.
    The first original publishing of the Mounk picture may have been as early as 2009. A piece on journalists remembrance in Russia from 2014 already includes the pic. The reverse image search shows that the picture has been has been used by several news-outlets since.
    Every aspect of the Mounk tweet is a lie.

    But Mounk’s lies have by now been re-tweeted over 22,000 times. …..’

    It’s not just the government and MSM which are spreading these lies, it’s ‘so-called’ academics’ as well (jut like with 9/11).

    • Dave

      Paul, I know you said the climate scam isn’t your subject, but both Trump and Putin agree its a scam and this is another reason for the globalist hatred of both, because the climate scam is a globalist scam, worth mega $billions to the globalists through carbon trading. So suggest swot up on the scam by visiting Piers Corbyn @

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Dave July 17, 2017 at 09:00
        I have been to a talk by Piers Corbyn, but I was not impressed, as he does not believe we are being ‘Chemtrailled’, which to me is obvious.
        Here is an ex-GI whistleblower: ‘Geoengineering Whistleblower ~ Ex-Military ~ Kristen Meghan, Hauppauge, NY, January 18th, 2014’:
        It is obviously very important, but I am not getting into that maelstrom. I’ve got enough on my plate!

  • John Goss

    This is a bit of a test. The mod(s) on this thread have continually taken down legitimate and probably accurate debate which does not reflect their (his? her?) modus operandi. My suspicion is that for the same reason nobody can refer to 9/11 elsewhere on Craig’s blog restrictions are in place to kill freedom of expression. Therefore I am not posting the important video link contained in a certain article which accuses Dick Cheney of being in charge of the 9/11 false flag, or even the article itself. If anyone would like to see it it is on my Facebook page at this link.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ John Goss July 17, 2017 at 10:52
      I took a look at the link; pretty much well-known stuff in the 9/11 Truth Movement.

        • Hieroglyph

          Reminds me of the recent US election. Follow a Clinton link far enough, you invariably get “404 Not Found”. Happened with a truly weird regularity just prior to the election. All the Google head honchos are epic globalist weirdos of course; a partial explanation right there.

  • Paul Barbara

    ”But Sir, It’s an American Ship.’ ‘Never Mind, Hit Her!’ When Israel Attacked USS Liberty’:

    Good article on the USS Liberty from an Israeli paper, but our and the US MSM Presstitutes ignored it.
    I was led to it by this one: ‘Israeli paper investigates 50-year-ago attack on ‘USS Liberty,’ while US papers leave it in the letters column’:

    They didn’t get all the stuff out, but it was pretty good.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Dave July 17, 2017 at 15:00
        Not a lunatic, just a Luciferian lust for power, overriding all else.
        He was also neck-deep in the JFK assassination, and it was LBJ who gave us the ‘Gulf of Tonkin LIE’, which led to full-scale war in Vietnam.

  • John Goss

    For those who do not understand how steel-structured buildings can be brought down I am including this example which is similar to the Polymer building demolition I posted some weeks ago. Please note that it does not fall through the path of most resistance but is toppled. Notice too that the explosives are near the bottom. Finally look at the remains.

    Steel bolted and welded together, as mechanical cranes are, does not fall apart easily if at all. It is important to grasp these concepts before letting your mind run away with itself. Otherwise you might end up with the fairy-tale belief that a high-rise steel structure can fall down through the strongest part of its structure without resistance. This of course would defy Newton’s third law.

    • Bobm

      Yes, John.

      As noted

      At WTCenter the upper stories should have been seen to drop, and either lodge on the lower ones, or fall off;
      unless something else was going on…

      • John Goss

        Very perceptive Bobm.

        I did not write as an exercise in creative writing. It is difficult to crush aluminium beer cans by stamping on them, especially when they’re full. 🙂

        When we were kids we would make holes in empty tin-cans and thread skipping ropes through them to make stilts pulling up on the ropes to keep the cans in place with the soles of our shoes. Anybody else do that?

        You do not need to be an engineer to know the strength of metals, even weaker metals like these. The twin towers were incalculably strong.

        • KingofWelshNoir

          The images of the steel core of the Towers always remind me of a ham bone in a leg of ham. I try not to jump too high since 9/11 in case when I land my pelvis crushes the top of my thigh bone and carries straight on down through the bone until it hits my knees.

        • Bobm

          Thank you, John.

          I watched the film about WTC construction with great interest.

          As it went on two particular thoughts came to mind:

          -that developer DJ Trump’s reaction, at the time, had been honest:

          –that I still have photograph of myself, there in 1999, with colleagues, having just walked right through the atrium of one of the buildings, where they were holding an Orchid convention.
          I wondered, tearfully, what was happening there on 9/11.

          • John Goss

            “I wondered, tearfully, what was happening there on 9/11.”

            So understandable with you having been there BobM. All that loss of life. It could have been anyone. Even you. But those who did it just did not care. If a proper investigation is ever allowed I think the finger of blame will point at those responsible for starting the unnecessary wars in the Middle East in a quest for mineral wealth which is not theirs. Thus two cardinal sins of mass murder and wholesale theft can be laid at their door.

          • John Goss

            July 18, 2017 at 18:56

            I too support the victims right to have any information May has on the Saudis. My suspicion is that the legal teams of the survivors will not be given any information, not because they have evidence of Saudi support, but the contrary. They do not want to open the big can of worms that points to the false flag they know it to be. Questions get asked in court. Uncomfortable questions. It is in everybody’s interest that all information governments have on 9/11 is released. You won’t get it though.

          • Paul Barbara

            @ John Goss July 18, 2017 at 18:25
            But SOMEONE cared as two people are known to have received messages from Odigo network not to go to work that day, and a heck of a lot of others also did not go to work or scheduled meetings in the WTC Towers that day.
            Maybe the two who received messages were key ‘personnel’ who passed the message on to others? Pure speculation, but it would be interesting to know just who those two were,, so that Truther sleuths could investigate.

  • Dave

    By an amazing coincidence Larry Silverstein owner of the WTC was absent from the Tower on the fatal day, having in the nick of time remembered a prior appointment elsewhere. Very fortunate indeed which he enhanced with a successful double insurance claim that included a special ‘terrorist’ clause taken out shortly before the disaster and then tried unsuccessfully, so far, to try for a repeat insurance claim against the airlines ‘involved’.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Dave July 19, 2017 at 07:55
      As well as the special terrorist inclusion clause, he also had a clause inserted that he would have the right to build on the site it the Towers were destroyed. He of course knew the Towers were virtually condemned, owing to asbestos which would be prohibitively expensive to remove, and also it would be prohibitively expensive to demolish the Towers other than by controlled demolition, which was forbidden if the Towers contained asbestos! Which is why Silverstein is often known as ‘Lucky Larry’ (I got banned from a Canadian website just for using that expression)!

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘The Curious Case of Philip Marshall’:

    26 minute documentary about an ex-CIA pilot and airline pilot who didn’t believe the 9/11 ‘Official Conspiracy’ and wrote severaal books on it. He was ‘suicided’ and his teenage son and daughter murdered; the official line here was he shot his kids, then shot himself!

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘EXCLUSIVE – Marianne Azizi – ZIONIST CPS Corruption In ISRAEL – You Won’t Believe Your Ears’:

    ‘American father fights for his kidnapped children’s lives in Israel as his son wastes away “in care”:

    This stuff is totally new to me – I got the info in an email this morning.

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