Pentagon Gives Gulnara Karimova Huge Contract For Supply of US Forces in Afghanistan

by craig on April 1, 2010 11:30 am in Uzbekistan

The UN Human Rights Committee is a body which routinely pulls its punches. It treats member states with respect, whether they deserve it or not. The UN is of course composed of nations many of which have much to hide on human rights, so the glass houses and stones argument is much applied.

In that context, the new advisory report of the UN Human Rights Committee on Uzbekistan is absolutely damning – as damning as these reports ever get. It contains one paragraph of “Positive Aspects” and 25 paragraphs of “Concerns”.

Concerns include lack of judicial independence, widespread use of torture, the position of women, the failure to produce bodies or graves of those executed by the state, lack of freedom of speech and movement, and use of forced labour – to name but a few.

Download file“>Download file

Not even the UN can pretend that the human rights situation in Uzbekistan is anything other than abysmal.

Still more astonishing then that the Home Office has refused the asylum applications of every single one of the few dozen escapees from Uzbekistan to make it to the UK – which still has the Soviet exit visa system and locks its people in. Even last week the Home Office was still claiming at immigration hearings that there is no human rights problem in Uzbekistan. (Fortunately judges have been less blinkered and asylum cases have been won on appeal).

The UN and EU countries continue to use Uzbekistan as a major supply base for the occupation of Afghanistan. Major new contracts between the US and Uzbekistan were signed in March 2009, and Hilary Clinton is to pay an official visit to President Karimov in November this year.

Even more disgusting is that it now emerges that the newly reinvigorated US/Uzbek relationship was made possible in negotiations because the US agreed to contract Gulnara Karimova’s company FMN Logistics to provide the transport for all the US supplies passing through Central Asia to the US forces in Afghanistan.

Not only that, but the Karimov company FMN Logistics is involved in construction and supply services on the US airbases in Afghanistan itself, and has been involved in the massive expansion work to the prison at Baghram Airbase to provide a replacement Guantanamo torture centre further away from media access.

The Pentagon contracts are worth $850 million a year to the Karimovs.

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  1. If only this were a sick April Fool’s joke on your behalf Craig, to be filed with spaghetti growing on trees and the republic of San Serife.

  2. yes – sadly not. This one really is a sickener.

  3. I’m not sure what’s the more sickening… the platitudes about freedom, peace and democracy mouthed by our supposed representatives in the face of all this, or that our fellow citizens generally believe we’re doing the Right Thing or simply don’t care.

  4. It is small potatoes compared to the Pentagon dollars, but Germany too is doing business with the Karimovs:

  5. Glenn

    I totally agree with your point. If I had to choose which I find most objectionable it would be the ‘don’t care’ attitude of the public. This is epitomized, for me, by those people in Wootton Bassett who claim on their regular TV interviews that they are just paying their respects and not taking a view about the rights or wrongs of the war. How can grown up people not take a view on a war funded by their taxes? This to me is the behaviour of the moral ostrich. I’m sure if the Taliban had an air force that could reach Wootton Bassett they would start taking a view damn quickly.

  6. I find the platitudes about freedom, peace and democracy the most objectionable because they are part of the cynical and deliberate psychological warfare against us. Individuals who fall for it or just don’t care are also victims.

  7. Craig

    I know that you believe that troops should be withdrawn immediately from Afgahnistan and all support should be cut off fortwith from Karimov. But as both the US and Russia would envisage the consequence of this being the establishment of Islamist states in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan – I suspect that this is something that neither superpower would contemplate. You may not like this – but my guess is that this is the “realpolitick” of the situation. But given this framework what do you think that Western governments should be doing to improve the human rights situation in Uzbekistan – which I agree is truly awful and have done for many years before you became involved with Uzbekistan.

  8. were all doomed

  9. So stephen the Zionist does think boiling people alive is not a breach of human rights.

    But just not enough of a breach to stop the aid required to boil people alive?

    Stephen the Zionist, you lied on the other thread accusing me of not attacking torture in the Muslim world. But here you are defending the aid given to the torturers while we are the ones attacking it.

    You are a lying little hypocrite.

    The very fact that you are making excuses for the Uzbek regime and the aid given to it by the Zionists is the proof that it needs to be removed.

    And your excuses tell me what sort of regime you, the Larrys, Israel and America want in the Muslim world instead of an Islamic government.

    Everyone Larry with this new name has made himself clear.

    He views the Uzbeck regime and the puppet drug dealing regime of Afghanistan as the acceptable alternative to an Islamic government. In part he is correct, that it is one or the other because the people there do want Islam.

    But the conclusion is wrong, Islam is the alternative to Karimovs regime that boils people alive and the puppet Karzia regime the rigs elections and sells drugs.

    Stephen go to hell and remain there for ever, you dirty little Nazi.

  10. I am very sorry at this news Craig. It must be doubly distessing – a)because you have seen the results of the Karimov torture thugs’ work and b) because it is Nadira’s bhomeland.

    As for that Israeli (s)Hill’s forthcoming visit- no words.

    Stephen is as deeply unpleasant as the ordure he wades his way through each day.

  11. Richard Robinson

    1 Apr, 2010 - 3:08 pm

    “were all doomed”

    Nah, we can spot an April Fool when we see one.

  12. For the Home Office to claim that “there is no human rights problem in Uzbekistan” is disgusting. New Labour deserve to lose the election for this if nothing else.

  13. Larry from St. Louis

    1 Apr, 2010 - 3:34 pm

    In the thread previous to this one, Arsalan wrote:

    “So East European women and girls, are trafficed in to Israel to be made use of as forced prostitutes.

    Others are imported so they can be butchered and their kidneys sold to rich Americans.”

    Craig Murray, you’ve deleted comments here before. That you allow such a comment to go undeleted and therefore allow the continued reinforcement of the historic blood libel is a logical indication of your assent to anti-Jewish hatred.

  14. Larry from St. Louis

    1 Apr, 2010 - 3:36 pm

    And Arsalan, you’re an anti-Semitic racist fuck. Not because you might be critical of Israeli foreign policy (fair grounds, of course) but because of your explicit racism.

    OK, so now tell everyone here about the wonderful religion of Islam. These pathetic people are just waiting for religious rule.

  15. I don’t think Stephen is the same person as Larry – he’s only half as stupid for a start, and in far more control of himself. Just look at how simple Larry wets himself and cries when he doesn’t get his own way.

  16. Larry the liar wrote:

    “reinforcement of the historic blood libel is a logical indication of your assent to anti-Jewish hatred.”

    So it is Libel that Israel imports East European women and forces them in to prostitution?

    It is anti semitism is it?

    So the US state department are the antisemites for Libeling the Zionist Nazis! Not me!,2933,129157,00.html

    I kind of Agree with you that it must be antisemitism.

    I’ve been saying all along that the Zionists are Antisemites, and you can’t get more Zionist than Fox news!

    So it is Antisemitism to say Israel butchers people for Kidneys is it?

    It is Libel is it?

    Again it is your American government who are guility of that blood libel for arresting those innocent people.

    It is the Zionist New York times wwho are the Antisemites for printing it.

    Larry your answer to everything is Antisemite. So from you it means nothing.

    You are nothing but a capo, and I know you know what that means.

  17. Larry:

    “Israel is a destination country for men and women trafficked for the purposes of forced labor and sexual exploitation. Low-skilled workers from China, Romania, Turkey, Thailand, the Philippines, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and India migrate voluntarily and legally to Israel for contract labor in the construction, agriculture, and health care industries. Some, however, subsequently face conditions of forced labor, including the unlawful withholding of passports, restrictions on movement, non-payment of wages, threats, and physical intimidation. (U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June 2009)”

    “Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families (The Guardian, December 21 2009)”

    Your argument appears to be that it is “anti-semitic” even to mention these horrors.

  18. “So stephen the Zionist does think boiling people alive is not a breach of human rights.”

    This is the exact opposite of what I said and believe. Read what I said you ignoramus, rather than what you think I said. For someone who throws around accusations of Nazi you do seem to be particularly well versed in the techniques of Dr Goebbels.

    But I don’t think the answer is to replace the Karimov regime with the Arsalan’s Islamic Caliphinate – that would be a case of out of the “boiling pot” and into the fire (or whatever is the current preferred torture method of the Islamist fascists) as well as possibly resulting in an all out nuclear war.

  19. Larry from St. Louis

    1 Apr, 2010 - 4:09 pm

    1. The U.S. State Department did not use that label. You’re going insane, aren’t you?

    2. Human trafficking is a huge issue around the globe. Even in Britain and Ireland. And you might want to re-read that Fox News article. This is the sort of thing that we’ve come to expect from the Russian mafia.

    3. Corruption in New Jersey is nothing new. Kidney trafficking is also nothing new.

    4. You’ve presented exactly no evidence that the Israelis are harvesting organs from Eastern European women to sell to rich Americans.

    Well now you’re just making shit up, but doing so in a way that reflects the centuries-old blood libel.

    Why not blame the Jews for World War 2?

  20. Mary

    Of course your answer would be to hand back Uzbekistan to the Soviet Union – so as to provide some recompense for your hero’s (aka as George Galloway) saddest day when the Soviet Union broke up.

    And as for dealing with the Karimov regime – I registered my own personal disgust and stopped my dealings with Uzbekistan back in 1997 – this was well before the saintly Craig even started his involvement. The true nature of the regime was known even in those days – I seem to recall a New Statesman article back in 1996.

    My original question to Craig was about was is actually possible – rather than what may be unachievable.

  21. Larry from St. Louis

    1 Apr, 2010 - 4:28 pm

    Arsalan is such a sad, twisted case that he thinks that anyone who disagrees with him is a Zionist agent.

    He equates Stephen with me. He equates me with a Zionist agent in Israel.

    No worries, though – his religious instruction of you people will start back up soon.

  22. Larrr by another name, What weasel words are you going to change the meaning of :

    “all support should be cut off fortwith from Karimov. But as both the US and Russia would envisage the consequence of this being the establishment of Islamist states in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan”

    Your antisemite shrecks might succeed in shutting up others who are against Israel but it will not work with me.

    I repeat, Zionists are the Nazis, you are the Garbles.

    So stick your Garbals and your antisemite slogans up your arse!

    They wont work on me.

    And again he defends the existence of the Karimov torture regime with the same excuse:

    “Islamic Caliphinate – that would be a case of out of the “boiling pot” and into the fire ”

    And just after he denied defending boiling people alive speaking from one of his arses he repeats it from the other arse!

    Karmiovs boiling people alive is better than what he calls the fire that will be an Islamic state.

    I traditionally we would use the word two faced to describe someone like Larry by another name. But each time he speaks he seems to be talking out of his arse, so would two arsed be a better description?

    And the we have the old Larry trying to keep a balance between defending Israel while refraining from attacking the Zionist publications of the Zionist country that says what old Larry calls libel and antisemitism.

    He failed, to continue to state they were libel, instead he went down the root of saying, “well Israel does chop people up to steal Kidneys and kidnap women to force them to be prostitutes, but to criticise it still makes you an antisemitic because everybody does it”

    Larry, both old and new, your shrieks of antisemitism and blood libel wont veil Israels crimes any more.

    You have turned the veil of your antisemite slogan in to a filthy cloth with over use. it has lost all meaning now.

    Shout it as much as you like, no will will listen any more.

  23. technicolour

    1 Apr, 2010 - 4:45 pm

    Ach, we are not doomed, but most of our elected representatives are, if only by their consciences. I have been thinking (most unusual) and I think this country are in for a shock Lib Dem government. I’m not alone, either. As in Spain, people are not going to take this any more.

    I spent most of the 2001 election irritatingly pointing out that if everyone who said that they’d vote Lib Dem if the Lib Dems had a chance of winning did vote Lib Dem, then they would win. I think the point has been reached. I’m not euphorically optimistic (who could be in our corporate structure?) but I can sense a breathing space coming. And that makes me happy.

    The proposed Lib Dem bill on Civil Liberties is a good thing. I presume they’d also adopt a more enlightened approach to victims of torture and persecution. I am interested to find out.

    Arsalan, I don’t want an argument, and I sympathise with your frustration with the Larry poster to the nth degree, but I followed your links and found the following:

    Link 1: Prostitutes are being smuggled from the former Soviet Union into Israel.

    Link 2: Some people in Jersey, many of them Jewish, were arrested on charges of money laundering. One Jewish man was arrested for buying kidneys from vulnerable people in Israel and selling them on. Sickening, of course. But it looks as though he had not been tried at the time of the article you post. Even so the spokesman for the Orthodox Jewish community condemned this entirely.

    I’ve just seen To Shoot an Elephant (an excellent, terrible film about Gaza). Are the visible, obvious actions of the Israeli government not appalling enough, without assertions of state complicity in widespread organ harvesting? Especially if you link to pieces which only show that a man in America traded in kidneys, a man who was then arrested by the US authorities.

    Back in 2008 a Haaretz poll showed that 64% of Israelis backed talks with Hamas. The people are not the government, as we here should surely know. By the way, human trafficking happens here, so does organ selling. As a UK citizen do you feel involved or complicit?

    Do please post further links, by all means. In the meantime, I’d be interested to know if there’s a country you believe to be an exemplar of Islamic rule? I’d like to go there :)

  24. Again Larry with his old name takes a dig at Islam for his devide and rule perposes:

    “OK, so now tell everyone here about the wonderful religion of Islam. These pathetic people are just waiting for religious rule.”

    Just before he post again to cry Antisemitism, with his usual hypocrisy.

  25. Tech my attack was against the government that allows these women to be kidnapped, imprisoned and prostituted. It has been going on for a very long time, and if the women escape they are the ones locked up, often given back to the pimps.

    The Zionist Newspaper a linked to isn’t the only news report on this issue, Amnesty and other have been reporting on it for a very long time, including the Zionist governments complicity.

    But I wanted to put the Larrys in a situation where they would either have to condemn Israel or the Zionist media.

    Larry choose to do neither by saying every body does it.

    The same applies on the Kidney issue, it has been reported for a very long time, in a lot more detail.

    If I linked to amnesty and other human rights organisation, Larry and the other Larry would just say their normal Jew hater reply.

    If you want more details on both sets of cases, it isn’t hard to find such information from repeatable organisations.

  26. Larry,

    I know from absolutely first hand that Uzbek girls are trafficked to Israel for prostitution – second biggest destination for them after Dubai.

    Organ harvesting stories turned up in Poland, Nigeria and Uzbekistan while I was there. I tend to think it’s one of those urban myths.


    I don’t think we shuould kid ourselves how much we can affect Uzbekistan, but we should treat it much as we treat Burma and North Korea.

    We should, however, debunk the fundamentalist threat myth every time it rears. Uzbeks are vodka drinkers. Less than 5% would support a taliban style regime – well less, I would say.

  27. Tech

    “a country you believe to be an exemplar of Islamic rule? I’d like to go there :)”

    So would I! :)

    But in the mean time I am going to live in one of the gulf countries.

    Not because I consider them truly Islamic, more to do with the fact they can speak English there.

    I can speak Arabic, but unfortunately, most Arabs can’t. They speak local slangs that non Arabs like myself who have learnt the language from classes and the Quran can not understand.

    I don’t feel safe bringing up a family in the UK any more.

    I think I’ll leave the Larrys to guy s now. My kids are back, from school so they need my attention.


  28. What weasel words are you going to change the meaning of :

    “all support should be cut off fortwith from Karimov. But as both the US and Russia would envisage the consequence of this being the establishment of Islamist states in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan”

    None at all – apart from the inclusion of the rest of eact sentence from which these clauses were extracted.

    But then of course you have the right to extract anyone’s words in whatever manner you wish and then place whatever interpretation you wish on them – don’t you?

    Just because – I think that an Islamist Caliphinate would replace Karimov’s torture methods – it does not follow that I endorse Karimov instead. So as well as defining how the English language works you also belive you can define how logic works as well.

    And as for libel – have you any idea how insulting it is to call those Jews who support the State of Israel nazis – given that nearly all of them will have lost relatives to the Nazis.

    My views on Karimov and torture are stated very clearly elsewhere in the posts.

  29. Barbarians at the gates of Gaza, again, and again. No names are sufficient. I was told a few days ago that the people were ‘expectant’.

    I have written of vengeance being strong within these chosen people – Talmud style. Gilad Shalit is part of this. 11000 Palestinians in prison with about 300 children is not equivalent to one French/Israeli with a kipvah.

    Palestinians: IDF drops leaflets over Gaza warning of imminent attack

    The Israel Defense Forces on Thursday denied Palestinian reports that its troops had disseminated notices over a residential area of the Gaza Strip warning of an upcoming military strike.

    Palestinians reported that Israel dropped thousands of leaflets overnight, warning residents to “wait for the response tomorrow.”

    Witnesses said the flyers were dropped in several locations on the border of the salient, including the area east of Khan Younis, where two IDF soldiers and two militants were killed in a clash last weekend.

    Meanwhile, Israel Navy patrol boats opened fire at a Palestinian fishing vessel off the coast of Gaza early Thursday, an IDF spokesman in Tel Aviv said.

    He said the Palestinian boat had strayed into waters off-limits to Palestinian fishermen, and did not heed orders to halt, causing the

    Israeli ships to fire warning shots.

    There were no reports of injuries or damage.

  30. “Even last week the Home Office was still claiming at immigration hearings that there is no human rights problem in Uzbekistan.”

    I’m dumbstruck.

  31. “have you any idea how insulting it is to call those Jews who support the State of Israel nazis ”*oqJCX0dTzCRKk7qtWGidSbyTNE4rS3zog9OP*YX4sAO0i0jEOIRHroMlM/zionism_nazi.jpg

    Don’t try that on me. I have spoken to real Jews, and know about how your Zionist aided the Nazis in extreminating their families.

    “Just because – I think that an Islamist Caliphinate would replace Karimov’s torture methods – it does not follow that I endorse Karimov instead.”

    Oh but you do, just as you do endorse all of Israel and Americas torture methods.

    As I have said before you and the other Larry talk out of two arses.

    With one arse you say “you dont endorse” while with the other you say “is has to happen otherwise we will end up with the Khilafah which is worse”.

    This thread was about the Americans aiding Karimov and his torture, in exchange of Karimiov aiding the Americans in their torture. And you defended it using weasel words, by stating what you think would happen if they didn’t.

    Larry by another name, you are a Zionist. Someone with the same ideology as Nazis. So you believe in all NAzi methods, as long as they are used against who you regard as lesser human beings. You defence of the aid to the Karimov regime which boils people alive is the same defence Nazis use for concentration camps. The, “I agree it is wrong, but the alternative is worse” root.

    So Larry by another name, you are a Nazi, all Zionists are Nazis.

    This isn’t an insult against Zionists, they insult themselves by adopting the idiology of people who exterminated Jews.

    Cry antisemitism all you like, it wont work with me. As far as I am concerned your statement that Zionists are Jews is the worse possible insult to Jews who lost relatives to the Nazis. Because saying it is possible to be a Zionist Jew is the same as saying it is possible to be a Nazi Jew.

  32. I can certainly support your view about Uzbeks being vodka drinkers and that they are not fundamentalists. There are also significant minorities of other Central Asian races, Koreans and Russians – although I supect the latter have declined signifcantly, given the awful treatment they were receiving from some Uzbeks.

    I’m just not sure that condemnation of Karimov is enough or will actually achieve very much. Given that the the Western states/Russia are fearful of what a political vacuum in Uzbekistan might lead to (and is the reason why deals are being done with Karimov) – surely there is something else that can be done or encouraged that would demonstrate that other alternatives are possible. Sometimes politicians are not particularly well informed rather than malicious and have to be shown the way out.

    Leaving aside your personal animus(which does exist understandably) how would you advise a British Foreign Minister – knowing full well that they would see the big picture as given?

  33. again from one of his arses he says he has condemned Karimov, and from the other “I’m just not sure that condemnation of Karimov is enough or will actually achieve very much”, he tells you to refrain from it.

    Typical double arsed Zionism.

    Craig if you are right that few Uzbecks want an Islamic state at this present time. Then people like me in uzbeckistan need to get our arses in gear and work harder for it, that is when we aren’t being boiled alive by the people stephen thinks you should not attack.

  34. Now seems the time to get angry. Let us remember with whom to be angry, rather than each other. It reads badly to visitors to this blog and makes us all look immoderate or simply bonkers.

    Seeing the perfidious creosote-bronzed Blair on TV the other night supporting Labour’s election campaign was a horrible experience, but it does define how far New Labour has gone down the road of learning from its mistakes in the Middle East especially. Nowhere.

    If the British electorate wants a change of direction away from illegal wars, torture, political corruption and giving billions to fatcat bankers it must think fast and act decisively. Voting New Labour will not do it, because the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Future are all the same – Tony Blair, more wars, more torture and more political corruption. Voting Conservative will bring a very similar set of compliance with illegal wars, torture and political corruption. The negative schoolboy sneering posters make it clear.

    We are left with three alternatives – (i) don’t vote,

    (ii) vote LibDem which made its position re. Iraq and Trident unambiguously clear and whose MPs are the most squeaky clean overall.

    (iii) vote for a nasty party like the BNP to upset the main parties.

  35. And Craig, this is important.

    I have direct links to get information from Uzbekistan too.

    Don’t you dare say, what you did was very little. The information I received from Uzbekistan while you were still there said, torture in prisons decreased due to you bringing attention to it.

    I don’t want to get in to my sources, so you can choose to believe me if you want

    or disbelieve me if you desire.

    But I know you made a difference, not from the information you gave, or the media here, but direct from the prisons and torture chambers.

    You have made and are making a difference.

    That may be way Larry, Stephan and the other Nazi bastards are here.

  36. MJ said:-

    “I find the platitudes about freedom, peace and democracy the most objectionable because they are part of the cynical and deliberate psychological warfare against us. Individuals who fall for it or just don’t care are also victims.”

    Indeed and there is also a lot of hypocrisy. Jeanne Kirkpatrick some years ago, drew a distinction between “dicatorial” and ” autocratic” rule. She was heading down the path of what a former US President said more honestly about a certain dictator, ” He may be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch”. And that is much how it works.

  37. Richard Robinson

    1 Apr, 2010 - 6:55 pm

    “I’m just not sure that condemnation of Karimov is enough or will actually achieve very much. Given that the the Western states/Russia are fearful of what a political vacuum in Uzbekistan might lead to (and is the reason why deals are being done with Karimov)”

    I think perhaps “OMG the Muslim steamroller scimitars are coming for somebody somewhere !!!” is a distraction from the original point? I mean, the increasing dependence of the military supply-chain into Afghanistan. But then, I have very little idea what the point of the US/NATO military presence in Afghanistan is.

    Incidentally, I’m very confused about the distinctions between ‘US’ and ‘NATO’ in this. Is it only ‘US’ supplies that come this route. does all the ‘NATO’ stuff come otherwise (Pakistan, still ?)

  38. Astonishment at the actions of governments, the hypocracy, the brutality, the flowing, rivers of blood; is a kind of luxury. The luxury of still, despite of all the evidence to the contrary, of believing that we aren’t, in reality, ruled over by a class of powerful and totally ruthless criminals, and arguably, always have been.

    The role of the state is to function as the iron fist of power when it has to, and the handmaiden when it doesn’t.

  39. technicolour

    1 Apr, 2010 - 7:07 pm

    MJ: am reading the ‘Pedagogy of the Oppressed’ (Paulo Friere) and the preface has just echoed you:

    ‘Men and women rarely admit their fear of freedom openly, however, tending rather to camouflage it – sometimes unconsciously – by presenting themselves as defenders of freedom. They give their doubts and misgivings an air of profound sobriety, as befitting custodians of freedom. But they confuse freedom with the maintenance of the status quo’

  40. technicolour

    1 Apr, 2010 - 7:27 pm

    By the way, Stephen, your “given that the Western states/Russia are fearful of what a political vacuum in Uzbekistan might lead to” seems almost a textbook example of the above. Could you explain why, for example, Putin would be ‘fearful’ of anything? Unless it directly threatened his own power base, of course.

    How do you equate removal of support for a ruthless dictator with ‘creating a political vacuum’?

  41. The primary concern isn’t whether a country is ruled by a dictator, brutal or otherwise, and human rights don’t really matter in relations between great powers, except when used a convenient propaganda tool; what matters is whether the dictator or regime is on our side or not. If the dictator is “our boy” then almost anything can be foregiven, or ignored, and even when we express shock and horror at the latest revalation, it’s only a temporary pretence, until the row is over and the dust settles, and then it’s back to business as usual.

  42. technicolour

    1 Apr, 2010 - 7:48 pm

    Writerman: that’s the dehumanized view, though: a distortion of both humanity and reality.

  43. Arsalan

    There you go putting words in my mouth again – when did I ask Craig to refrain from criticising Karimov, I did no such thing and don’t think that he should. I just think other steps are required.

    The last thing Uzbekistan needs or wants is the introduction of arsalan and his ilk should Karimov be removed. I could not think of a quicker way of achieving a Russian takeover/invasion.


    You misunderstand me – I don’t support Karimov or any other ruthless dictators for that matter. I am only thinking about effective and practical means for his removal. Yes – the fear of what might happen after the dictator’s removal is a one which actually exists in Western governments/Russia (and anyone who knows anything about Russia knows that this goes a lot deeper than just Putin) and it does encourage some to adopt “the least he is our own bastard” line – but this doesn’t mean I support Karimov or his ilk. What I’m looking for is a means of removing Karimov that doesn’t bring the whole deck of cards crashing down.

    Perhaps one lesson of Iraq is that the world (and ideally the UN) needs to develop some means other than military conflict for removing dicatators (and there is doubt whatsover that Saddam fell into this category – he did undertake military invasions of his neighbours and gas his own population with WMDs – although the prosecute hoim as a war criminal crowd were somewhat silent on the matter at the time). I’m afraid there seems to be a precious shortage of such ideas here.

  44. Richard Robinson

    1 Apr, 2010 - 8:41 pm

    “Perhaps one lesson of Iraq is that the world (and ideally the UN) needs to develop some means other than military conflict for removing dicatators (and there is doubt whatsover that Saddam fell into this category – he did undertake military invasions of his neighbours and gas his own population with WMDs – although the prosecute hoim as a war criminal crowd were somewhat silent on the matter at the time). I’m afraid there seems to be a precious shortage of such ideas here.”

    Agree, mainly, except that it’s not just here there’s a shortage of ideas. And, I could wonder about the idea that the politics of all countries of the owrld ought to be at our disposal.

    And I really _really_ wish it was possible to condemn S.H. for flinging poison gas at the populations of other countries, as he did to Iran on a far larger scale, years earlier. I remember the New Scientist having restrained and scientic conniptions about it, as did the various hositals in many countries that took various victims and couldn’t help them much, or attract any political interest.

    And I wonder how many years it will be before such conversations start up concerning Karimov.

  45. Well, who sold Saddam the poison gas?

  46. Larry, you can bend your words as much as you like to make them palatable to try and change the meaning for different readers.

    But we have been reading the posts of your former incarnations for long enough to translate Zionist speech in to English.

    I’ll give you an example,

    You wrote:

    stephen at April 1, 2010 1:19 PM to Craig

    stephen at April 1, 2010 8:30 PM to Me

    Together these posts translate to:

    We want to keep Karmiov in power because his rule is good for Israel. So we support all the Aid America gives him, we support the fact the Zionist NeoLabour government of the UK doesn’t think his boiling people alive is a breach of Human rights.

    We do all this because Karimov is good for Israel. But if he is removed dispute all of our support we the Zionists will decide what the Uzbecks should replace his rule by.

    So Zionist, if Zionists want a say in what replaces Karimov, you Zionists should work to remove him.

    As you Zionists do all you can to support his rule, we will hold you Zionists accountable for all his crimes.

    Karimovs rule will end, he knows it will end, that’s why he has resorted to boiling people to delay it.

    As expected the Zionists have sided with the people boilers.

    I don’t know which will fall first, Karimov or your Zionists rule, whichever is first, the other will soon follow.

    So Zionist keep you advice, and I’m sure you and your gang will use ever means at your disposal to try and push Russia towards an Invasion, just as your Neocon Zionists used everything they had to get America and the UK to invade Iraq. We expect nothing else from you Zionist. That is why it is vital to end Zionism to end imperialism.

  47. First we had Angrysoba, everyone agreed he was a bigger Moran as he was a Zionist.

    Then Larry came along, I thought they were the same but some thought Larry was not quite an idiot as Angrysoba.

    Now we have Stephen, I still think he is the same as Larry, but some here seem to think he is only half as stupid as Larry.

    As far as I’m concerned they are all the same, whether they know it or not.

    If you have seen one Zionist Nazi, you have seen them all.

  48. Larry from St. Louis

    1 Apr, 2010 - 9:46 pm

    So do you still believe that I am / we are working in a basement in Tel Aviv?

  49. Larry from St. Louis

    1 Apr, 2010 - 9:47 pm

    “Well, who sold Saddam the poison gas?”

    You tell us Ruth.

  50. What a hypocrite!

    S/He got upset with me for calling him Stephanie , and she is calling herself Mary!

  51. technicolour

    1 Apr, 2010 - 10:23 pm

    Stephen, thanks. I feel it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that the discussion should revolve, or is revolving, around Karimov’s ‘removal’. Or indicative of a (perhaps unconscious) acceptance that removing dictators is what the West and its allies could and should be doing.

    Yes, as you must know, there are many ways in which dictators have been ‘removed’ without murdering, burning, poisoning, crippling and/or displacing millions of terrified people in the process. If the CIA were not so curiously inept at assasinations, there would be more, it seems.

    The best (least manipulated and bloodless) example I can think of is the Portugese Revolution of the Flowers. But there have also been the Orange and Velvet Revolutions; and currently there is the Iranian Green Revolution. And doubtless many others, in places I know nothing about.

    The point is that none of these would have been possible, or been infinitely harder, if the West and its allies had been actively supporting the dictatorships in question. Which was also the point of this post.

    By the way, anyone who knows anything about Russia will know that Putin is not sitting in a room on his own, I quite agree. They will also remember Yabloko, and know that since Putin became President, elections there have variously been declared unfair by the OSCE, the Council of Europe and Amnesty, among others.

  52. Ruth:

    Re your views on the outcome of the next election, I wonder if you’ve seen this:

  53. Yes, it’s interesting. In my view the results of the election have been decided. The UK is going to through a period of unparalleled austerity. The evidence is already here in the huge cutbacks in education. But there is going to be far more to come. We’ll be in a state of national emergency and hence the inevitability of a coalition government, which those who really control the country are working for. I believe the opinion polls are being manipulated and fraud will bring in the required election results.

    Also, I believe the MPs’ expenses scandal was brought into the open to flush out old MPs and bring in new, whose allegiance may not be to their constituents.

    The terror laws, the restrictions on civil liberties and press freedom, the violence shown by the police in demonstrations, trials without juries etc have all been implemented drip by drip to deal with the national emergency.

  54. Arsalan

    Please believe what ever you want to believe – I am sure that given your ability to read and understand any viewpoint other than your own will mean that your are more than capable of reading whatever meaning into my words that you want whatever they actually say.

    And nevermind if your great powers of comprehension and logic fail you, you can always be comforted by your view that there is only one person who actually disagrees with you – perhaps we should call ourselves Spartacus, but then perhaps a sense of irony is one of your many powers.


    I agree that it is best not to ever support dictatorships – but that will not always stop them, and you still have to start from where we are. I’m sure that the answer is in effective international institutions – but the UN has a pretty miserable record in this regard in recent times even before Iraq.

    I carry no candle for Putin whatsover – but i think you will find that the Russian fear of the threat of Islam from the South has much deeper roots- read Hadji Murat by Tolstoy for starters or any history of Russia.

  55. Actually, I don’t think angrysoba is/ was Larry and I don’t think Stephen is Larry either. I’m not sure whether there are two or more ‘larries’, but apart from ‘Larry’, the other bloggers seem pretty singular to me. One can expect conflicting views on a political website such as this, it’s part of the idea of discourse.

    I don’t agree with some of Stephen’s basic premises, which I think stem from an imperialist world-view; there are of course disagreements all the time among imperialists on the best ways – strategies and tactics – to rule the world and control its resources. Nonetheless, I sense that he is at least thinking about his arguments and about what he writes.

    Angrysoba has their own blog, which I think one might describe as (in its broadest sense) politically conservative in tone and which seeks to debunk what it sees as ‘conspiracy theories’ of various kinds but which also has interesting links to the websites of people with whom I suspect Angrysoba might well disagree.

    Larry / the larries seem to enjoy provoking people on an emotional level and tossing out two-line insults and non sequiturs, in both the linguistic and colloquial senses. Yet unlike Stephen, he/ she/ they have not yet answered my very simple question. Why is that?

    There is a danger in distilling the complexities of the world down into a dualistic paradigm. The dynamics are multi-directional; both politics and war are complicated.

    For example (and this is actually a relatively simple example), take Tibet. Now, the Western powers ride on the human rights dynamic there in order to undermine the power of China. The CIA has been supporting, and maybe even running, the Tibet movement – monks, singing bowls and all – for decades.

    But just as the USA committed abuses in its self-proclaimed ‘backyard’, El Salvador (for example), China has committed abuses in Tibet (whether or not it sees Tibet as an indispensable part of its polity is another matter).

    So, if, in the spirit of trying to stop nuns being raped by soldiers trained in the School of the Americas (or whatever it’s called now: ‘Torturers Direct’, perhaps?) and monks being battered by the Red Army, one supports anti-US elements in El Salvador, say, and anti-China elements in Tibet, one may be helping to further the agenda of the CIA in one case and to lessen it in the other. Yet the CIA (and here I use the CIA as a cipher for US power) is not in favour of human rights unless they suit its purposes and whether we like it or not the ‘Human Rights Industry’ (as Roderick Russell called it on another thread) to some extent is instrumentalised – and often fundamentally compromised – by such dynamics.

    I remember Idi Amin. A horrible dictator. He was put there by the UK; he was a good sergeant-major of empire. Later, of course, he ceased to serve the UK’s purposes and indeed became too unstable to be useful. Power went straight to his head. But how many died and suffered in between? Obote was no better, another stooge.

    Saddam Hussein was another US stooge. The US supported the Shah of Iran yet also the Ayatollahs (in spite of appearances to the contrary) as a bulwark against communism. So an imperial power will often simultaneously support and undermine a regime. These modulations help sharpen and intensify the strength of the imperium.

    In Eastern Europe, the EU/ US has a clear, corporate-driven agenda. The opposition to this agenda is often horribly regressive to the point of being racist, bigoted, narrowly tribal, etc. Yet their critique of US/ EU hegemonic power often is not incorrect. Slovakia (where there is a popular party who would expel all people of Hungarian descent) is an example of this, Serbia, another.

    As in Ukraine, a different situation again, there are no ‘goodies’ in such situations.

    What one can do, to the extent one is able, is to analyse and critique the nature and flows of power itself and to realise that in one’s attempt to be principled and moral, ethical, etc., whether one likes it or not, one can and will be used – and instrumentalised – by various aspects of imperium. War is simply a too, in its armoury, one of many tools. The world economy is the major tool. War is used to fuel, and to guard, the hegemonic economy.

    This is not an argument for apathy but simply one for realism; the goal, never to be fully-realised of course, might be that of ordinary people determining their own lives and having fundamental amenities. Forces often pose as anti-imperialist when in fact they are anything but.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised, for example, to discover that the Taliban are being supplied by elements of the same imperium against which they appear to be fighting. We shall see.

    I’m not offering a fully-formed dialectic here, simply a thought-form, or food for many thought-forms.

    End of meditation.

  56. Oh, I forgot! A guy with an interesting and penetrating take on various matters is the activist scholar, Michael Barker:

  57. Seen on a LibDem Blog

    “On Saturday I listened to the Radio 4 afternoon play, ‘Murder in Uzbekistan’ about the British ambassador Craig Murray. He must have believed the Labour government when it declared that it would have “an ethical foreign policy”. (Remember that?)

    I heard about Craig Murray losing his ambassadorial post at the time, in 2004. Labour’s foreign policy became decidedly less than ethical when they decided they had to put the “war on terror” first. After that the media has been very quiet about Uzbekistan until this broadcast.

    The play, by David Hare, is based on Craig Murray’s book of the same title. It showed how appalling human rights abuses in Uzbekistan were allegedly condoned by the Labour government even though Craig Murray alerted them to what was going on. All the Uzbeki authorities had to do was to label anyone they arrested as a “terrorist” and they could apparently abuse them with impunity.

    The really sad part is that things have not changed in Uzbekistan as far as I know. Now how could Labour have taken us to war against the cruel and unjust dictator of Iraq whilst condoning the cruel and unjust Uzbeki president Islam Karimov?”

    Mirror, mirror on the wall – will the LibDems change our foreign policy?

    “The Liberal Democrats are determined to resist the slow death by a thousand cuts of our hard-won British liberties. George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four was a warning, not a blueprint. Yet the Big Brother society that he satirised is growing before our eyes. Our forebears who fought so hard for the rights we have had stripped away would be shocked at what we’ve lost.”

    The 20 Points of the proposed LibDem Freedom Bill:

  58. But what if Larry From St Louis,Arsalan,Stephen AND Angrysoba were all part of the SAME mirrored call-and-response provocateur dialectic?

    Who’d reeeeally be surprised?

    Not I…that’s fer sure…

  59. @ Suhayl

    “I wouldn’t be at all surprised, for example, to discover that the Taliban are being supplied by elements of the same imperium against which they appear to be fighting. We shall see.”

    Interesting.I had wondered wjen someone would finally raise that inconvenient,yet vital,question.

    Now…we here are media-bombarded with the Official Narrative.i.e. Taliban=Stone-age nutters who ride shotgun out of Toyota Land cruisers and with an opportunistic Lee Enfield strategy whils the best-ever militarily equipped US/UK/Alliance has been there for almsot 10 years and can’t win-whilst the Official Media-Pentagon narrative lectures about an war that “may” last 50 years??

    Perish the thought but it’s almost like one side would fund the other just to cement the Main Narrative Tinmeline here…

    OR am i just a conspiratorial cynic?


  60. “I wouldn’t be at all surprised, for example, to discover that the Taliban are being supplied by elements of the same imperium against which they appear to be fighting”

    Yes. The Taliban were of course installed as the ruling party of Afghanistan by the US and the two maintained cordial relations right up until 2001.

    The Taliban make an ideal enemy. Too weak to do any real harm, just annoying enough to justify a prolonged occupation.

  61. And then there’s the heroin:

    “Just as the indirect American intervention of 1979 was followed by an unprecedented increase in Afghan opium production, so the pattern has repeated itself since the American invasion of 2001. Opium poppy cultivation in hectares more than doubled, from a previous high of 91,000 in 1999 (reduced by the Taliban to 8,000 in 2001) to 165,000 in 2006 and 193,000 in 2007. (Though 2008 saw a reduced planting of 157,000 hectares, this was chiefly explained by previous over-production, in excess of what the world market could absorb.

    “No one should have been surprised by these increases: they merely repeated the dramatic increases in every other drug-producing area where America has become militarily or politically involved. This was demonstrated over and over in the 1950s, in Burma (thanks to CIA intervention, from 40 tons in 1939 to 600 tons in 1970),[35] in Thailand (from 7 tons in 1939 to 200 tons in 1968) and Laos (less than 15 tons in 1939 to 50 tons in 1973).[36]

    “The most dramatic case is that of Colombia, where the intervention of U.S. troops since the late 1980s has been misleadingly justified as a part of a “war on drugs.” At a conference in 1990 I predicted that this intervention would be followed by an increase in drug production, not a reduction.[37] But even I was surprised by the size of the increase that ensued. Coca production in Colombia tripled between 1991 and 1999 (from 3.8 to 12.3 thousand hectares), while the cultivation of opium poppy increased by a multiple of 5.6 (from .13 to .75 thousand hectares).[38]”

    [Peter Dale Scott, a former Canadian diplomat and English Professor at the University of California, Berkeley, is a poet, writer, and researcher.]

  62. Stephen:

    I think I will call you legion, like the demons the posed the pig.

    It is not the fact that you disagree with me that makes me hate you. We all disagree with each other here.

    With you, and yours it isn’t about disagreements. It is about evil, and you are our definition of evil.

    I see you as a racist baby killer. Nothing more and nothing less.

    If anything I see you as worse than the ones who pull the trigger. you are someone who justify it, calls for it, but are too cowardly to risk yourself in pulling the trigger.

    So you are a coward as well as a Nazi.

    You know this already.

  63. Stephen:

    I think I will call you legion, like the demons the posed the pig.

    It is not the fact that you disagree with me that makes me hate you. We all disagree with each other here.

    With you, and yours it isn’t about disagreements. It is about evil, and you are our definition of evil.

    I see you as a racist baby killer. Nothing more and nothing less.

    If anything I see you as worse than the ones who pull the trigger. you are someone who justify it, calls for it, but are too cowardly to risk yourself in pulling the trigger.

    So you are a coward as well as a Nazi.

    You know this already.

  64. This is funny:

    “The UK Home Office last week released a study naming the most influential “pro-Islamic” bloggers in an attempt to estimate the scale and influence of Islamic bloggers in the UK …”:


  65. Richard Robinson

    2 Apr, 2010 - 1:49 am

    “This is funny:”

    “*Hrmph*” says A Disgruntled Taxpayer. It’s a gravy train, isn’t it ?

    But, yes :-)

  66. Richard Robinson

    2 Apr, 2010 - 3:20 am

    “But what if Larry From St Louis,Arsalan,Stephen AND Angrysoba were all part of the SAME mirrored call-and-response provocateur dialectic? Who’d reeeeally be surprised?”

    I don’t think arsalan’s playing mindgames with us, I think he’s being a real live human being.

    (I think he makes a mistake to let larry wind him up so much, but it’s for him to decide).

  67. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Apr, 2010 - 4:41 am

    Do you think I’m trying to wind up Arsalan? He was fairly quick to accuse the Jews of harvesting organs of young Eastern European women and selling them to young Americans. And to accuse me and the other detractor here of being Israeli intelligence operatives.

    Btw, good morning Arsalan!

  68. Perhaps Ms Karimova could spend some of her ill gotten gains on improvements in the Uzbekistan Health Sevice.

    Uzbek child HIV deaths punished

    Last Updated: Thursday, April 1, 2010

    CBC News

    Medical staff behind the HIV infection of nearly 150 children in Uzbekistan have been jailed for negligence, a news website says.

    At least 14 of the 147 children who were infected in the eastern city of Namangan in 2007 and 2008 died, the news portal said in a documentary.

    In the film, regional prosecutor Bakhtier Shodmonov blames the infections on negligent hospital workers who failed to observe sanitary rules.

    “The main reason for this situation is that the main doctors and their deputies and the chief nurses did not perform their work with full responsibility,” Shodmonov told Reuters in Uzbek. “Sanitary rules were not observed, and they did not take any anti-epidemiological measures. The staff were negligent in their duties.”

    Unsterilized syringes and intravenous drips caused the infections, relatives of the victims said in the film.

    “Today in the hospitals of Namangan, Andjizhan and other towns in the Ferghana valley, in that part of Uzbekistan, the picture is the same,” Shodmonov told Reuters.

    “There is a total neglect and disregard for medical rules. This is caused by a lack of money, medicines and necessary medical equipment.”

    The documentary was made earlier this year for state television but was never broadcast because Uzbek authorities had second thoughts.

    Read more:

  69. Jives, thanks. Yes, I’ve never seen a report in the MSM (though I may have missed them) about this: who supplies the Taliban with their equipment? To tight a superpower/ an aggregation of of hyperpower in a country as large as France and Spain put together, even in a guerilla war situation, you need serious amounts of ordnance. As with the war against the Soviet Union, it’s not simply ‘captured weapons’ – which was the official Western narrative back then!

    Btw, on another, much pleasanter note, I checked-out Acoustic Butterfly, – fantastic stuff, I really enjoyed listening to the music. Some of the songs, in their subtlety, reminded me a little of Canterbury group, Spirogyra, others, the ‘Warner’ period Everly Brothers – ‘Lord of the Manor’, etc.

    Did you ever comes across the work of a short-lived band from the mid-1990s called ‘The Colour of Memory’? Alyth McCormack used to be in the band, as did Alasdair Joss and Julia Dow. Celtic rock. I drew on their album, ‘The Old Man and the Sea’ a lot in ‘Psychoraag’. And on the work of Phamie Gow (harpist) in ‘Joseph’s Box’, esp. the bits set in Scotland or concerning the Great Magus of Selkirk, Michael Scot (who traveled to Cordoba and Sicily to translate Arabic texts into Latin).

    We really need a magus who, like Walter Scott’s Michael Scot in ‘The Lay of the Last Minstrel’, could cleave mountains with a movement of his hand!

  70. “a war that “may” last 50 years”

    This timescale is (by one of those odd coincidences) an upper estimate of the expected useful lifetime of an oil pipeline through the country. Can the Taliban be propped up that long? Reminds me of this story.

    Frightened caller: My house is on fire!

    Highland Fire Brigade: Try to keep it going until we get there.

  71. Tsk, tsk, Suhayl. A ‘harpist’ is a lady in a long gown who sits at the back of a western orchestra and strums long glissandi on something that looks like a gilded waterfall. The celtic instrument is a rough thing of wood and gut and those who play it are called ‘harpers’ – as found in a few place names and the common surname.

  72. My apologies, Vronsky – thanks for reminding me – and by extrapolation to all harpers who are, will be or ever were!

    Though Phamie Gow plays both types and in fact on the front page of her website she describes herself as (among many other things) a “harpist”:

  73. That Karimov is a sadistic tyrant, is pretty obvious now. But as, in the case of Saddam Hussein, he is America’s man–for the time being. Unfortunately, while he is supported and supplied by the “Great Satan” there will be no way of removing him.

    Saddam Hussein was dispatched a little too hastily for my liking. His barbaric hanging and avoidance of the ICC at The Hague, denied us of much information, which may have cast further light on the modus operandi of our base “special relationship” alloys.

    It would be nice to see Karimov in the dock, before his evidence is wiped out.

  74. Wise words John especially on that dreadful execution allowed to be televised to the world by the barbarian Occupiers.

    Overnight some more cruelty took place in Gaza. 13 air ‘strikes’ were carried out on the captive Palestinians. Nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide as the F16s (with the British made head-up displays in the cockpits) scream overhead delivering their deadly weapons.

    I said this on Dissident Voice in the night following a Zionist troll on the meaning of the Passover –

    Any drops of wine dripped from your cups for the Palestinians in Gaza or is it the vinegar-soaked sponge for them again in their suffering on this Good Friday?

    As promised, the Israelis carried out 13 air ‘strikes’ overnight. How cruel as the people shiver in their makeshift tents and the mothers cuddle their children, terrified all over again.

    The BBC report omits to mention that over 90 Palestinians have been killed by the IOF since the end of Cast Lead in January 2009.

    Keith on medialens has written to the BBC Chairman about the content of this report.

  75. Now that is terrorism.

  76. Total waste of time complaining to the BBC about their collusion in the murder and maiming of Palestinians.

    Does anyone really believe they don’t know what they’re doing?

  77. Larry the liar it is not me doing the accusing it is the antisemitic American government:

    Accuse them of blood libel wont you?

    And they sell these women to old Israelis not young Americans.

    There is only one way it is possible to stop Israel chopping people up to sell their kidneys, there is only one way to stop Israel kidnaping women, girls and even you boys to satisfypeople like Larry, and that is to end Israel. Muslims nations must unite in to a single khilafah and remove this racist cesspit.

  78. Here’s an interesting article:

    Mark Pythian Arming Iraq: How the US and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine.

  79. I thought the cosy relationship between the US government and the dictatorship of Uzbekistan would have ended with the Karimov’s going back into the Russian orbit.

    This shows i was completely wrong.

    I’m also sickened by the government refusing asylum to Uzbeks.

    Thank you for continuing to stand up for Uzbek refugees and against supporting dictatorships Craig – you’re continuing to do important work and doing it well, with so much personal knowledge and experience that no-one can dismiss what you say (as much as some of them would like to).

  80. From your post Mary:

    “Many ordinary people on both sides feel it is only a matter of time before there is another war”. Says Jon Donnison

    As Professor Norman Finkelstein has recently reported: Cast Lead was no war. When 1400 people are killed on one side and 13 people on the other–this is a massacre.

    Only the cowardly Zionist Israelis, would call such overwhelming odds–a war.

    Have they forgotten the Warzaw Ghetto 1943?

    How do they see the uprising of those captive Jews? I thought they were immensely brave and desperate to fight back against their overwhelming brutal oppressors.

    However, the Warzaw Ghetto persecution and horror did not last a generation and impose a living death on a defenceless people.

    Those sanctimonious Zionist apologists of Obama, now carrying their painted doves to the Middle East have no shame or conscience.

  81. On the subject of the stupidity of backing dictatorships if the aim is supposed to be reducing violent extremism did you see Mohammed El Baradei is saying something i strongly agree with – that backing dictatorships and not recognising democratically elected Islamic governments (e.g Hamas) feeds extremism and will backfire in the long run.

    He’s also talking of standing against Mubarak – though the last candidate with a chance of beating Mubarak was jailed and his supporters beaten and theatened by government paid agents and thugs (while the US government made noises about ‘democracy’ but continued to arm and fnd Mubarak – just as it continues to do under Obama)

  82. Duncan McFarlane

    That is democracy American style, where everyone has the right to vote for America’s puppet president, while no one has the right to stand against America’s puppet.

  83. technicolour

    2 Apr, 2010 - 11:44 am

    Stephen: you refer to the ‘Russian fear of Islam’. Again, this is disingenuous. Of course Russia has been fighting in the Caucasus for centuries. But Putin has installed and backed Kadyrov in Chechnya; the latter’s fundamentalist stance has led to the banning of alchohol, the imposition of head scarves, and the promotion of homour killings. He is their ‘son of a bitch’, of course, but even so it hardly argues Islamophobia.

    What you mean, I think, is dictatorships are in fear of the people rising up against them; whether this is under the unifying flag of moderate Islam or any other label. You didn’t answer my question about why removing a dictatorship would necessarily create a ‘political vacuum’: perhaps you too are aware of the Velvet Revolution.

    Indeed we must ‘start from where we are’. Currently the UK government is helping to dig a monstrous pit. Stop digging is, I think, the usual advice in these circumstances. Noises about the rewriting of the ‘Special Relationship’ seem to suggest it might be possible.

    Arsalan, with all due respect, re-installling the Caliphate is not a one size fits all solution. How many contenders would there be for the title, for one thing? And I have failed to find any proof of the Israeli government’s complicity in kidney-harvesting. You link to another story in which one man has been accused of buying kidneys. Again, I ask you, why, when the situation in Gaza is so terribly visible, would you need to throw in more?

    Suhayl: good meditatation. Perhaps the internet is creating a global consciousness? Mary, thanks for the links. Vronsky, the oil routes need to be kept open, of course. Ruth: I hope you’re wrong.

  84. Tech, right now there are no contenders for the title.

    straight after it was abolished in 1924 there were a couple of conferences where nearly all of Muslim countries agreed on the need for its re-establishment, but they didn’t do much else.

    So the title will belong to the first the decides to rule by Khilafah.

    Tech, the proof of Israeli government complicity is the fact that these Kidney theifts were being reported for decades before the Newyork Arrests. And each and every time the Israeli government were told about it they shouted antisemitism and blood libel instead of stopping them. They tried to stop publication of these reports, instead of stopping the crime of organ theft.

    Until the arrests by their slave. And that is when they decided to say, it happened but it wont happen any more instead of shout their Usual silencing slogans: Antisemitism, Blood libel, Jew haters.

    And they did the same thing with sex slavery for a very long time. They were told about it for a very, long time. And choose not to act.

    Until it was reported by their slaves in America.

    But both are still going on as strong as ever. But to say so is Blood libel, Antisemitism, or what ever other slogans the Zionists use to silence, until their puppet decides to print again. then the cycle will continue.

    They do the same thing when they use Palestinian Children as Human shields.

    You say it happens, they call you an antisemite. They are filmed doing it, they say it is bad apples, and has stopped.

    You say it continues. They say your are an antisemite. They are filmed doing it.

    and the never ending cycle continues.

    They are liars, Larry is a liar, Stephen is a liar.

    Tech you have been here long enough to know their lies, and their slogan cycles.

    You are smart enough to predict what stephen says before he says it, so why ask?

    They all seem like they are reading from a script, and you have read what they write long enough to have memorised their script by now.

    Tech, we are on the same side. We may disagree one how to make things better, but we all agree on making things better.

    Those racist bastards want to make things worse. If they are those, I have the feeling those Zionists share the same brain cell even if they are different people.

  85. I think I’ve found out who Larry is.

    See this amusing interview with Larry, where Prof. Norman Finkelstein demolishes his every point and all Larry can do is run away calling him names.

    Turns out Larry is in fact former US Ambassador to Israel and grandee of AIPAC.

    No wonder they all try to ban Norm. He demolishes them every time.

    It starts just about 12mins in, or you can read the transcript below the video.

  86. Jed

    And I have found Stephen

  87. See how USUKIsNATO military aggression is poisoning us, our children and their children ad infinitum, and the planet on which we all have to live.

    Depleted Uranium Radiation resulting from NATO Bombings in Serbia : High Incidence of Cancer

    by Ljubica Vujadinovic

    All Voices, April 1, 2010

    A leading Serbian expert in the field says the NATO’s use of depleted uranium ammunition in it’s aggression on Serbia has caused enormous increase in cancer rates and number of newborns with genetic malformations.


    These defects are being found in Iraq, especially Fallujah, and the fear is that the contaminated dust is being spread in the winds and sandstorms all over the ME and beyond. Nice thought?

  88. @ arsalan

    You’re correct that they’re liars. But what else can they do. Their crimes are so horrendous that they can do nothing else but lie.

    But worry not, more and more people are seeing through their lies and they know it.

  89. That bitch cries just like Stephen doesn’t she.

  90. technicolour

    2 Apr, 2010 - 1:37 pm

    Arsalan, was that you? I don’t think calling people names helps, you know. Norman Finkelstein keeps the factual high ground – good link, Jed, thanks. Stephen seems to be coming from an establishment mindset I know quite well; given thought & information it can open up, I think. But then I haven’t read all his posts.

    Larry is the worst advocate for his cause, I agree. But I still think one has to acknowledge that attacks on Israel per se can be motivated by sheer anti-semitism, and that such people do not give two hoots about the Palestinians. They just hate Jewish people (and Muslims). Apparently the ‘blood libel’ (I’d never heard of it) was a powerful propaganda tool. It’s important to stick to what we know to be the facts, as Finkelstein does. They are surely bad enough. I’m open to information, so could you substantiate the claims in your second paragraph?

    Not that anything would surprise me; this is all a viciously cold-blooded exercise. Mary, the DU stories are – words fail me. Despite all the evidence the mainstream refused to cover the use of DU at the time, as far as I know.

    Back to Karimov; would add thanks & respect for Craig’s efforts here too.

  91. technicolour

    2 Apr, 2010 - 1:44 pm

    Btw Arsalan, it was pretty awful to hear that you don’t feel that you or your children are safe here anymore (though not as awful as it must be to feel it). Is there any way to help?

  92. @ Suhayl

    Thanks for the generous comments about the band…if you ever find yourself at one of our gigs make yourself known to me-i’m the bassist.

    Never heard about the Celtic rock band you mention,i’ll try and check them out.And i shall look forward to reading some of your work.

    ” The Lay Of The Minstrel”.. Maybe that’s where Jimi got Voodoo Chile from? ” Well i stand up next to a mountain..chop it down with the edge of my hand…”

    One never knows eh?


  93. Larry from St. Louis

    2 Apr, 2010 - 1:57 pm

    technicolour: “Apparently the ‘blood libel’ (I’d never heard of it) was a powerful propaganda tool.”

    Thank you for admitting to your ignorance of anti-Jewish hatred. Ever heard of the Protocols of Elders of Zion?

  94. Thanks to dreollin for flagging up the incentives to carry on with Chaotics in Afghanistan.

    Drugs are the motor of the CIA, they ahve been at the time of the Vietnam war, th Contra affair and are now playing a major part in US destabilisation of Columbia.

    The war on terror cannot be disconnected from the war on drugs, the two are merged, the only way to uphold a disastrous prohibition, their way to maximise drugs profits and keep global faultlines open to their interventions.

    prtesidernt Uribe is the greatest drug dealer in the world next to Walid Karzai and Dostum, all of them fettered by US companies and pentagon intervention. Those who are adjectively against drugs and promoting a useless and disorganised prohibition, are in reality fuelling its markets.

    Russia has a massive heroin problem thanks to its direct communications with the karimov syndicate, you can’t call them a Government anymore.

    I suggest to write a letter to all broadsheets, denouncing the karimovs as being involved in multpiple raketeering, be it arms or drugs, of torture and genocide of its own people.

    I would sign it.

    But which of our politicians will realise that the 40 year old misuse of drugs act is a piece of very expensive shite?

    Who will take notice of sense in a wolrd were celebrity counts for more than anything? What stunts do we have to pull to be noticed, stopping large road programmes and protesting in a non violent manner does not win over the public, indeed the public is politically inept and fed trivia and false news as of normal. rewriting history is an international sport and we in the west are best at it.

    This is what is mainly going on here on this forum, people who attempt to rewrite history, who by their own actions, cannot square their actions with the reality and facts as they apply.

    Murdering children in Gaza, taking organs from half dead people without consent and enslaving eastern european women against their will, whilst ignoring the Palestinian genocide one is contemplating and making out that they are all terrorist, just to quote Golda meir, is all part and parcel of their deception here.

    Do not waver, show your contempt for these historical whitewashers.

  95. A former Israeli Air Force Major tells the truth:

  96. Tech

    The statement that you made about some people attacking Israel on purely anti-Semitic grounds may have been true before the early 90s.

    At that time they started to realise that their attacks against Israel weren’t fruitful because genuine Anti Zionists didn’t want anything to do with them. We actually found them to be an embarrassed because Anti-Zionist Jews play a massive part in the AntiZionist movement.

    So after the mid 90s the NeoNazis and other white supremacists started to change sides and by the turn of the millennium the defection was total and they had formed a rock solid alliance with the Zionists.

    So yes, that may have been the case about one and a half decades ago, but not any more. Now all the NeoNazis have changed sides and the Zionists have welcomed them with open arms.

    And good riddance, we didn’t want them anyway.

    Look at those Zionists and NeoNazi skinheads demonstrating together.

    The racist bastards deserve each other.

    Let them spend the rest of eternity united in the deepest pits of hell.

  97. Senior British Jewish MP and former minister calls Israeli govt, Nazis!!

  98. technicolour

    2 Apr, 2010 - 2:16 pm

    And now Larry comes back, having ignored my previous requests to take back his assertion that anti-semitism goes unchallenged on this board, despite the screeds and screeds of exhaustive (and exhausting) comments which challenge anti-semitism whenever those few random posters appear. And why? To try and demonstrate that because someone has not heard of the ‘blood libel’ they are ignorant of anti-Jewish hatred. And this despite the fact that the post was partly about the reality of anti-semitism.

    Arsalan (who we know is not antisemitic, don’t worry) perhaps I’m wrong & name calling is the only answer. Larry, you’re clearly unable to read more than one sentence at a time. And you’re making an appalling advocate for your cause, whatever it is.

    Meanwhile over on Medialens we see a great dissection of the current coverage of the latest ‘relatively small’ assault on Gaza. Ingo, I agree, down with these historical whitewashers. Now we need to sort our own house out, of course. The Lib Dem Freedom Bill (thanks whoever posted that again) shows something of what we need to do.

  99. suhayl@11.07 pm

    I agree with your basic premise that we should not boil everything down to a dualistic paradigm – but then you try to pigeon hole me in such a fashion by labelling me as being an imperialist.

    I’m afraid I just try to judge everything on a case by case basis from the basic position of believing in democracy and individual human rights. I have no problems in being on the same side as the US when it comes to opposing fascists such as in Nazi Germany or Iraq. Or opposing totalitarians and those who invade their neighbours such as Milosevic, Mugabe, Karimov, Saddam and a hosty of others. I also support the right of the Jews to have their own homeland if that is waht they want. That doesn’t mean that I cannot oppose the US when it does act as an imperialist – as in mich of LAtin and Central America – or resort to torture or other abuse. Similarly the state of Israel is far from perfect – I have no problem in condemning the many massacres in which it has been involved and the over proportionate use of force which it says it uses to defend itself.

    I’m afraid it is not possible to place every single country in the world into good or bad boxes, you just have to judge everything on a case by case basis – and start from the imperfect world that we have. Dialectics, marxist or otherwise, just don’t work in a multi-dimensional world.

    Of course, genuine arguments can arise because individuals place different weights on differnt factors – I suspect that many who opposed the overthrow of Saddam for example are more concerned about being anti-imperialist rather than anti-fascist.


    I am not being disingenuos in saying that Russia has a fear of Islam – that is not the same as saying that it is not prepared to accept those that practice Islam, providing that they do not encroach on the Russian state. For that reason I don’t think that Russia (with or without Putin) would ever tolerate an Islamist state on its borders.


    Thanks for the further compliments.

    Lots of love and kisses.

  100. A former Israeli terrorist minister, Mossad agent and daughter of Irgun terrorist leaders Eitan Livni and Sara Rosenberg, defends Israeli terrorism:

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