Jamie is co-organising a music festival at Dounce Castle, largely I think because this is the kind of music he likes, and it sounded fun. Makes me wish I were young again. Acts confirmed so far include
Francois and The Atlas Mountains
Glider
Les Bof!
The Junipers
Adam Stearns
My Old Blue Terraplane
The Fast Camels
The Koolaid Electric Company
Punch and the Apostles
The Higher State
Paul Messis
The One Ensemble
The Wise Guys
Sunken, Drunken, and the Broken Boat
While the pitch is enticing:
Doune the rabbit hole is a two day tea party situated in the beautiful countryside surrounding Doune Castle, Stirlingshire. Come sit at our table and let me tell you what treats we have in store. Expect the tea to be strong; a blend of the finest psychedelic music complimented with a dash of folk brewed to perfection in a big pot of sunshine. And we mustn’t forget the cakes; indulge yourself in a delicious array of freshly baked delights comprising of poetry, dancing, philosophy, forests, stories, lights, trees, cows, theatre, comedy, dressing up boxes, whisky, games, face-painting, giant mushrooms, rainbows (but no rain), local ale and cider, lovely organic food, and many more surprises to come.
http://www.dounetherabbithole.co.uk/Doune_the_Rabbit_Hole/Home.html
Interesting to see how they get on with a festival featuring a style of music rather than anybody famous.
Mark Golding: my last sentence was a joke. Whether Dounce Castle would do you good I leave to those you know best to judge. But I stand by the substance of what I said. Aaronovitch makes an important point that this kind of event has happened before: someone gets murdered, and because the circumstances are unusual, conspiracy theories get generated. Eventually (in the case of Hilda Murrell, via DNA evidence) the ordinariness of the case is revealed. A generation from now Kelly’s death may have been shown conclusively not to be murder, but some other unfortunate may have died in unusual circumstances, and conspiracy theorists will no doubt be at it again.
Mark Golding, it sounds like you learned philosophy from a new-age beard-stroking psychedelic hippy. Therefore you did. Occam’s Razor. QE-BS.
The correspondence theory states that the truth is whatever corresponds to the facts, not whatever corresponds to suspicions padding out gaps between the facts.
What you call the social constructionist theory is a lame kindergarten caricature of what is already brainless nonsense. The Emperor’s New Clothes was just a fable you know. Didn’t really happen.
Like other conspiraloons, you’re relying on a dangerous mix of the coherence theory and the pragmatist theory, wherein the truth is whatever coheres with the predetermined suspicions that happen to suit your political purposes. And your arguments from selective authority are not convincing in the least.
“My suspicions are probably right, so whatever explains my suspicions is the most satisfying explanation, and must be right as well. Therefore … yada yada” That’s not Occam’s Razor, you moron: it’s the fallacy of affirming the consequent (in Occam’s New Clothes).
Go back to logic school, Goldie … if you can find the way. (Clue: don’t look inside yourself. Those aren’t the answers you’re looking for.)
Abe, where is this “Dounce” castle of which you speak? Could it hold a few more dounces, do you think? Cuz we could ship out a few from this loony blog.
“Dounce” castle appears to be Craig’s own invention. Kind of makes sense, doesn’t it?
Nice to see a rare outbreak of rational sanity, M. Rene. Pass round more of that conspiraloon antidote.
For once Larry your post is ‘moronically’ funny – I quite enjoyed the thought of a beard-stroking psychedelic hippy – although strangely as a sailor I am not too keen on beards (to be honest my wife moans they cause a rash ;-))
Good try Larry – much better than abuse! But I think you might be standing on quick-sands with this one and don’t ask me to throw you a line.
“So, Angry, what were those compelling reasons?”
Pretty vague ones about the timing etc…
“what was in Norman Baker’s book that changed your mind and made you believe it was suicide?”
The fact that Dr Kelly’s own mother had committed suicide before by a very similar method was one alarm bell. Baker of course dismisses it and says that Dr Kelly didn’t get upset about it when talking of it so it wasn’t any indication of his own potential state of mind. He also dismisses what his wife and daughters say of him and one of his best friends Tom Mangold (sp?) and instead relies on his pub friends as character witnesses. This is despite the fact that Dr Kelly was described as very depressed by Janice Kelly (who hasn’t endorsed any new investigation, as far as I know). The “dead in the woods” thing that Baker considers “uncanny” is completely unsurprising if someone had ever mentally played out their own suicide yet Baker seems to think this is an impressive act of foresight (not if he committed suicide it’s not!). Then there are various really far-fetched extrapolations of very ordinary events such as the police turning up and using a sniffer dog in the house or the large mast erected in the garden (could it be sending signals to Tony Blair on his way to Tokyo? muses Baker). I started getting the impression that Baker had an overactive imagination and that he often chose the most unlikely interpretation of events to weave all the anomalies together.
Now, if Janice Kelly or his daughters ever ask for the case to be reopened then I may change my stance from highly doubting the conspiracy theories to thinking that a new enquiry is necessary. Also we’ve gone over the 70 year thing before (a number of times now).
“I’m not guessing that Larry is Larry Chomstein, by the way. I know he is.”
Of course he is.
“Why?”
Why?!?!? I’m sorry, Colin, I really thought you were being ironic. I don’t have time to explain that right now, though sorry.
Scousebilly, first time I have ever heard that the Fabians are the masters of the universe. Thanks for the chuckles. Next up, PETA? The RSPCA? The National Trust?
“I am not too keen on beards (to be honest my wife moans they cause a rash ;-))”
Stop hiring your wife out to bin Laden’s buddies, then. Not surprised that you get your funding from ragheads, but I didn’t figure you did it this way. What’s wrong? Why can’t you satisfy her yourself?
“strangely as a sailor”
That says it all, strange sailorboy.
Quiet revealing just how quickly some commentators managed to divert a post on a psychedelic festival back onto their own chosen subject.
Craig, I live in Scotland and just spent the weekend at a lovely small independent festival about an hour north of Edinburgh. If I still have the money in July I might check out the one in Doune, it looks fun. I would also recommend Kelburn Garden Party this weekend, another independent festival just to the west of Glasgow.
Schnews had an interesting story last week about the police crackdown on free parties and Teknivals
http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news727.php.
Sam,
I should apologise to you and Craig for my part in diverting this thread. I find it sad that people become abusive. There is no need for it.
Yes, always a clampdown on the free festivals. I used to go to Stonehenge years ago. Now, only commercial festivals are allowed.
“So, Angry, what were those compelling reasons? [to think David Kelly had been murdered]”
“Pretty vague ones about the timing etc…”
And they were compelling?? I put it to you that you’re fabricating the idea that you had any ‘compelling reasons’ whatsoever.
“I started getting the impression that Baker had an overactive imagination and that he often chose the most unlikely interpretation of events to weave all the anomalies together.”
I’m not interested in his interpretations. I’m only interested in the facts/events. What anomalies do you have in mind?
“Why?!?!? I’m sorry, Colin, I really thought you were being ironic”
Why would you think it at all strange or amusing that anyone would say Larry wrote that blog, or came from there? Throwing in “Colin” changes nothing. What do you know about Larry, or BlameBush, that caused you to be ‘gobsmacked’ when I said that it was his blog? Why would anyone be ‘gobsmacked’?
I also was at the one before the last Stonehenge events and joined the so called peace convoy, organising free festivals all around the country, to the annoiance of the police…
oh what fun we had.
Angrysober – your analogy to alarm bells should have been the kudu horn instead of a bell ie a ‘lost’ argument; but of course I understand ‘fear’ is ‘de rigeur’ at this moment in history.
My wife’s brother has tried to commit suicide 6 times over a period of twenty years, by O/D ing and all these attempts had been preceded by a loss of self esteem, hopelessness and cries for help that family and close friends had ignored! Depression does run in the family but has been remarkably reduced by a new family of serotonin reuptake inhibitors.
David Kelly was not in this category, in fact his close friends commented his was upbeat, had found joy in a new faith and was an active participant in that faith.
I believe David had been scared, much like Robin Cook; why would he have mentioned, ” “dark actors playing games” and being found “dead in the woods?”
The bottom line is this: Does the Hutton Inquiry (http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/transcripts/hearing-trans17.htm) represent an adequate investigation into the cause of death, sufficient to render a verdict of suicide? The answer is of course No!
In fact, Ambassador Broucher said at the inquiry that David Kelly had given assurances to Iraq’s leaders that no invasion would take place so long as the weapons inspectors were allowed to do their job. If an invasion of Iraq occurred, David Kelly said he would be found dead in the woods; Broucher thought this was a ‘throw away’ remark. (transcript 145-146)
Let us not forget the BBC lawyers said the Hutton Report was ‘legally flawed’ and 73% of Britain (BMRB) thought it was ‘a whitewash’ the quality and interpretation of ‘intelligence’ left unanswered.
Remember:
Tony Blair said ‘yes’ to outing Dr David Kelly.
Incidentally Cherie Blair sold a signed copy of the Hutton Report for £400.
Lord Hutton confirmed in 2006 that his brief was narrow and had he been required to investigate the reliability of intelligence (eh! the 45 min claim) then his report would have been ‘seriously delayed’ – whatever!
craig,
i put the question about whether you think the liberal democrats will support reopening the inquiry on dr. kelly’s death not because i was looking for conflict and abuse.
rather, i am interested to what extent your trust in that party has eroded and will erode as a result of their complicity in establishment politics.
cheers,
mbotta
McIntyre, I sense that you know things. Mark, I sense that you also know things.
Angrysoba, likewise, but in a different way.
Who on earth (or in heaven) is ‘Colin’, btw?
I see that the alleged Missourian is back, but that he has adopted a different tone, again, the insinuating, mellower tone. These modulations are interesting and my observations on them are in the spirit of the thread in that one begins to wonder whether, perhaps, some of them might be drug-induced. Cocaine, amphetamines…
My question to all those who know things is this, firstly, do secret agents wear raincoats for a reason?
And secondly, does the SIS sub-contract assassinations and if it does, to whom does it subcontract?
“If the SIS couldn’t stop him reaching the conclusion that Kelly had been murdered they could have quite easily have pointed him in the direction as to who the murderers were.”
Ruth
Yes, that’s what I wondered while reading Baker’s book. I wondered whether he was deliberately misled to some extent, sent off the trail. The role of the US spy, Mai Pederson in the whole saga seems particularly intriguing. She seems to pop up, sing for a little, then go back undercover, or wherever it is spies go when they’re not wearing false moustaches, carrying tennis rackets and assassinating people with blow-pipes in hotel suites.
Larry: “Not surprised that you get your funding from ragheads,”
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
“Ragheads”?
“I put it to you that you’re fabricating the idea that you had any ‘compelling reasons’ whatsoever.”
It’s not worth the effort trying to convince you on that so believe what you like, Colin.
“I’m not interested in his interpretations. I’m only interested in the facts/events. What anomalies do you have in mind?”
For example, slashing the ulnar artery is an unusual thing to do. That makes it something of an anomaly. However, it is not unheard of. Other people have cut their ulnar artery and bled out.
“Why would you think it at all strange or amusing that anyone would say Larry wrote that blog, or came from there? Throwing in “Colin” changes nothing. What do you know about Larry, or BlameBush, that caused you to be ‘gobsmacked’ when I said that it was his blog? Why would anyone be ‘gobsmacked’?”
It’s funny because it is so extremely tenuous I thought you were mocking the conspiratorial mindset. You seem to have come to the conclusion that “Larry” is “Larry Chomstein” purely on the basis that they’re both called Larry. Is there any other reason for believing they are the same people?
Mark, “My wife’s brother has tried to commit suicide 6 times over a period of twenty years, by O/D ing and all these attempts had been preceded by a loss of self esteem, hopelessness and cries for help that family and close friends had ignored!”
Well, I’m sorry to hear that, but this is anecdotal it doesn’t mean that people don’t commit suicide unless they have tried it a number of times already. The Tory MP who threw himself under a train earlier this month hadn’t attempted suicide before, as far as I know, but he had felt humiliated at work and become depressed about it. In Japan every year, 2000 people throw themselves under trains almost always due to work-related problems and feelings of humiliation.
“Depression does run in the family but has been remarkably reduced by a new family of serotonin reuptake inhibitors.”
I don’t understand the relevance. Are you condeding he may have had a hereditary disposition towards depression? If so, was he on these serotonin reuptake inhibitors? If not, why is this relevant?
“David Kelly was not in this category, in fact his close friends commented his was upbeat, had found joy in a new faith and was an active participant in that faith.”
Two things here.
1.) He most certainly wasn’t described by his wife on the day he died as “upbeat”. In fact wasn’t he described as being devestated?
2.) I think people finding “new faiths” is great and all that but surely it could also be a sign of a insecurity or someone psychologically restless.
“I believe David had been scared, much like Robin Cook; why would he have mentioned, ” “dark actors playing games” and being found “dead in the woods?” ”
Like Robin Cook? This is another problem I had with Norman Baker. His presentation is very dishonest when he clearly wants to imply to his readers that Robin Cook had been murdered up a mountain. He says Cook had published an article and died suddenly while hiking shortly after. If you flip to the notes in Baker’s book you’ll find the article was dated more than one year before Cook died of a heart attack while hiking with his wife. There is no honest way in which it can be said to be “shortly after”.
And “dark actors” isn’t much help if you are looking at facts rather than interpretations.
“Tony Blair said ‘yes’ to outing Dr David Kelly.”
How does it make sense for him to out David Kelly only to have him murdered?
Angrysoba,
I doubt that Larry is kidding you. Whoever he is, he is utterly unpleasant, as I have been saying for ages. People associate you with him because you tend to argue in the same directions, but I suspect that he does so for reasons entirely different from your own.
Yes, this is racism. Larry’s repeated denouncements of “antisemitism” and “anti Americanism” are entirely hypocritical. But his personal attacks upon people who comment here are also unacceptable.
The people he should be criticising if he were genuine he leaves almost entirely alone – Apostate and his puppets, and Michael Petek. Instead, he goes for Roderick Russel, Suhayl Saadi, Mark Golding, and of course Craig.
What do you make of someone who attacks the peaceful and the supporters of peace, but has no criticism of the aggressive and those who advocate violence? It reminds me of how certain governments behave.
Angrysoba,
and Dreoilin; I forgot to mention how Larry treated her. Larry has an agenda, and it is directly opposed to what I guess to be your own.
“Who on earth (or in heaven) is ‘Colin’, btw?”
No idea. It appears to be a name he plucked out of thin air.
“It’s not worth the effort trying to convince you on that so believe what you like, Colin”
My name is not Colin, nor have I ever used that name. Nor do I even know anyone of that name to the best of my knowledge.
I find it very odd that something you described as “compelling reasons” turn out to be “Pretty vague ones about the timing etc…” but let’s not get bogged down, shall we? I’ll let you off that one.
“Other people have cut their ulnar artery and bled out.”
No they haven’t. If you have a source, quote it. There are no reports of anyone bleeding out from cutting one ulnar artery. But by all means post them if you have them.
That’s all you can produce after referring to “all the anomalies”?
“You seem to have come to the conclusion that “Larry” is “Larry Chomstein” purely on the basis that they’re both called Larry”
You weren’t reading properly. I assure you I’m not that stupid. Meanwhile Larry becomes more Larry Chomstein every day and he deserves no more of my time. He’s a rank hypocrite, a liar and an Islamophobe.
Angrysober,
You missed my point when I spoke about my brother-in-law. He had a history of depression that was eventually treated for a chemical imbalance. The depression caused him to become suicidal. We do have remarkable resilient bodies and minds able to cope with the most traumatic events – as I witnessed in Iraq.
We learn from Ms Pederson that David relieved stress and pressure by walking and talking. She recalled him saying they were both on an Iraqi hit list, they had to endure constant surveillance and many times laser beams were directed at their bodies. She said, “‘David’s position on the invasion was that it was regrettable but necessary because UN sanctions had failed. He said he was misquoted and his words were twisted and taken out of context.
‘He wasn’t depressed. He was upset. I have taken courses on suicide prevention and he exhibited none of the signs.
‘He was planning for his retirement. He wanted to make more money to provide for his family and he’d had job offers in the States as well as Europe. Also, he was excited that one of his daughters was getting married. He said, “The controversy will blow over.”
She told us David took analgesics to relieve pain in his RIGHT arm which was very weak.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1050919/David-Kellys-closest-female-confidante-COULDNT-killed-himself.html
Well, anyway, I think I’m going to bow out of this discussion. Most of this stuff has been hashed out on other threads including the numbers of suicides from wounds to the ulnar artery. I think the probablities still strongly favour suicide and given what Mark has just said that seems even stronger. David Kelly FAVOURED invasion as “regrettable but necessary” and had even written articles to that effect. There seems no motive for the government to have killed him as he was one of their pawns that they had used against the BBC. I’m sure that whenever anyone attempts suicide out of the blue (as does happen) there will be those who say, “He didn’t seem the type.” The fact that some people DO seem the type exist doesn’t alter that fact. On the other hand we have multiple witnesses who say he was very depressed including Mai Pederson and a number of other colleagues and, importantly, his wife who said she had never seen him so depressed and she was the last person to see him alive. Given the fact that she and the rest of the family have expressed their own belief that it was suicide and that they don’t appreciate further public exposure about his death I think it is a tad sanctimonious of anyone to say they are “doing it for Janice Kelly”.
Anyway, that’s all.
“including the numbers of suicides from wounds to the ulnar artery”
Which don’t exist. And for which you have no references.
Sorry to see you duck again.
Angrysoba: Just before you go, are you really that surprised to find St.Loony making racist comments? You seemed to find much in common before. Is this a case of, “I’m shocked, shocked, to find racism taking place in the tea-bagging institution!”
Angrysober, before you run out the door I want to put on record the David Kelly did not favour invasion of Iraq – hw was a whistle-blower who said the UK government had “sexed up” a dossier on Saddam Hussein’s military capabilities in order to sell the Iraq war which the Labour party championed.
Your snide remark about being sanctimonious reveals your lack of thought for Janice; recognising her suffering which you obviously ignored in my original post is NOT being high-minded. You know nothing of her constant harassment by people such as yourself who make excuses for a Government that knew ‘no leg to stand on’ legally to go to war in Iraq.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7079895/Government-knew-no-leg-to-stand-on-legally-to-go-to-war-in-Iraq.html
“Which don’t exist. And for which you have no references.
Sorry to see you duck again.”
MacIntyre, you tedious fellow. This has been hashed and rehashed numerous times on this blog and I’ve provided links in the past.
Now, I might be willing to look for the link again but only if you first provide a link to back up your claim that no one has ever died from severing their ulnar artery.
Mark, “before you run out the door I want to put on record the David Kelly did not favour invasion of Iraq – hw was a whistle-blower who said the UK government had “sexed up” a dossier on Saddam Hussein’s military capabilities in order to sell the Iraq war which the Labour party championed.”
Mark, do you actually read what you quote and link to? At least from what I understand David Kelly denied ever using the term “sexed-up” saying it wasn’t an expression he would use. (Although I will concede I am wrong if you can show me that).
And in the very article you cite Mai Pedersen’s opinion is here:
“And far from being opposed to the Government’s dossier, she says he was convinced that Saddam lied when he told the UN that he was no longer developing WMDs.
She said: ‘David believed the Iraqis were not being forthcoming during our inspections about their potential for making weapons. If they weren’t up to anything, why did we have to be accompanied by minders? And why were people scared to talk to us?
‘David’s position on the invasion was that it was regrettable but necessary because UN sanctions had failed. He said he was misquoted and his words were twisted and taken out of context.”
There’s also this Guardian article which shows that David Kelly was not opposed to an intervention to rid Iraq of WMDs:
Please actually read it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/aug/31/davidkelly.iraq1
You’ll also remember from Norman Baker’s book that David Kelly believed there was a thirty percent chance that WMDs were in Iraq.
“Your snide remark about being sanctimonious reveals your lack of thought for Janice; recognising her suffering which you obviously ignored in my original post is NOT being high-minded. You know nothing of her constant harassment by people such as yourself who make excuses for a Government that knew ‘no leg to stand on’ legally to go to war in Iraq.”
Oh fuck off! This is exactly what I’m talking about!
What do mean harassment? Who’s doing the bloody harassing here? Have you met her? Have you tried to contact her about the death of her husband?
Where has Janice Kelly ever called for a public inquiry as you so clearly imply she has in this comment:
“Please help and write to your MP for a public inquiry to give Janice closure.”
Has she asked for a public inquiry? Has she asked you to tell people to write to their MP? Does she actually use the word “closure”?
If you can satisfy me on this then fine, I’ll write to my MP. But if you’re exploiting her bereavement for your own ends then really, really do fuck off.
“sexed-up” – I wouldn’t swear to it (and can’t be bothered to go playing with google for references), but my memory’s claiming that the phrase was an artefact of Gilligan’s reporting.