With genuine reluctance, I find myself obliged to ban Larry from St Louis from commenting on this blog.
I am extremely happy for people to comment on this blog who disagree with my views. It makes it much more interesting for everybody. I wish more people who disagree would comment.
But Larry has a different agenda. His technique is continually to accuse me of holding opinions which I do not in fact hold, and which he thinks will call my judgement into doubt.
Take this comment posted by Larry at 9.35 am today:
I’ve re-read your post on the Russian spies, and once again you’ve proven to be a complete dumbass.
I predicted Russia claiming (in some minor way) those idiots. You didn’t. You thought it was a conspiracy.
You’ve once again self-indicted.
In fact my view on the Russian spies was the exact opposite of what Larry claims it was. As I posted:
I don’t have any difficulty in believing that the FBI really have discovered a colony of Russian sleeper spies in the United States.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/06/those_russian_s.html#comments
This is not Larry being mistaken – remember he claimed he had just re-read my posting. It is rather indicative of a very deliberate technique he has used scores of times, that of claiming I hold an opinion which he believes will devalue my other arguments in the mind of other readers, when I do not in fact hold that opinion.
He most often – indeed daily – does this with reference to 9/11. He tries to divert almost every thread on to the topic of 9/11 and to insinuate that I am among those who believe that 9/11 was “an inside job”. In fact, I am not of that opinion and never have been.
I have put up with this now for months, but Larry’s activities have become so frenetic and are so counter-productive to informed debate, I am not prepared to put up with it any more. I am also deeply sucpicious of the fact that he is able to spend more time on this blog than me, and to post right around the clock (often as with this one at 9.35am – think about it – what time is that in the US?).
Anyway, sorry Larry, your derailing days are over.
.
“So MJ, what sort of technology did they use to make the phone calls?”
Heck, maybe they didn’t.
“It’s been 9 years – surely such technology would now be commercially available, no?”
The technology was first tested in 2004 so you may well be right.
Alfred,
I’m not trying to get rid of you; as I said, I enjoyed what you wrote about globalisation, publishing and the BP oil blowout. I learned from that.
Words and their meanings are products of mind, so those sorts of classification proceed from mind, but I think there are non-linguistic classifications that proceed from mind also; the words come later. So maybe you meant “Yes, Clark,…”. Yes, your definition of “genocide” is “defensible”, but you could have chosen a word that wouldn’t need defending.
The relevance of this to the Larry question is that you could just state the problems of immigration as you see them without starting a big argument by using terms like “genocide” in a very borderline fashion or appearing to support the BNP. Only you know your motivation for doing so. Others may think that you are deliberately trying to be disruptive.
I hope you enjoyed your visit to the beach.
Apostate?
Obviously Larry has been reinvented as Alfred. It seems to me that the intelligence services are so afraid of Craig’s blog.
“Obviously Larry has been reinvented as Alfred”.
No no no. Alfred is far too articulate to be Larry. “Zionist Troll” is Larry, plus a couple of anons.
Clark, Alfred is not Apostate, if that’s what you meant. They had a big bust-up on another thread over some historical matters and historians, etc. and what those historians might have represented. Alfred is interesting, if oddly incongruous, often frustrating and somewhat elusive. And there’s the BNP thing. I’m not sure quite what he sees in this blog though. But anyway…
But you’re right, Ruth, they are targeting the blog, no question. One must never underestimate the power of the state and those it chooses as its partners. But this lot are not very good, are they? I mean, if their tactic is to get extremists to become more prominent on the boards and thereby discredit the blog, it seems to me that there are just too many decent people – from all walks of life, of various political persuasions and hailing from all parts of the world – hereabouts (not that I’m including myself among those; my forte is to ask about vegetable consciousness, raincoats and such-like) who refuse to just hate groups of people because of who those people are, but who won’t pander to imperialist narratives.
Vronsky’s correct (I think it was Vronsky) that we learn from the ‘trolls’ in an oddly inverted manner, by that which they tend to attack most. Yes, they divert discussion, but the main – the central – thing is, they have not succeeded in stopping Craig the Whistleblower from maintaining a public presence, now supported by many more people around the world, a number of whom are engaged in rational activist politics in the real world as well as in cyberspace.
Suhayl,
no, I was just calling Apostate, to see if he was here!
Clark do you have an Ouija board? Make sure you’ve got Father Ted with you.
Yes, “Zionist Troll” is obviously Larry. Not sure about “Craig Oldfield” and “Piers C Structures”.
Of course it was daft of me to call Apostate; he’d be unlikely to answer. I must be a dingbat.
Steve – ‘It isnt a big false flag operation as people state but groups of disorganised nutters pissed off about us invading places at whim.’
Well, this was a false flag operation actually. The powers that be needed some convictions to help justify the war and police state agenda. I agree that these were disorganised nutters, but they would have done nothing if MI5 hadn’t picked them up and used them. What especially makes this a false flag operation is the fact that these ‘terrorists’ were given the customary ‘Al Qaeda’ tag and when you hear that in the mass media you know it’s complete and utter bullshit. ‘Al Qaeda’, as a terrorist organisation, is nothing more than a CIA media fiction. Wake up to the truth.
Ask yourself this. Where the hell are these ‘terrorists’? Where are they? How many illegal immigrants get into this country? How easy is it to get into this country? And yet this devilish, worldwide ‘SPECTRE-esque’ organisation hell bent on our destruction never gets through to harm us? Ha ha ha ha ha. Well, apart from the ‘one off’ spectacular coordinated attacks of 9/11 and 7/7. Odd that… No, they seem to just focus on more Hollywood plots don’t they, which our security services rescue us from. Phew! Moreover, the shoe bomber and the pants bomber made it on to aircraft all kitted up supposedly. Yet they didn’t use the plane toilet to do their dark deeds? They sat in front of all the passengers ejecting smoke on a no smoking flight? Hmm… How can anyone on this blog with a few brain cells and no hidden aganda not see the truth in large neon lights? No wonder things are as bad as they are. WTF!
Well, here he is. Thanks so much, Clark.
Craig’s blog is of major importance in the fight against the erosion of our liberties and the abuse by the state of its people and those around the world.
It’s really not surprising that such attacks against this blog are being made.
In my experience the first step taken by state agencies is to try and remove the target and then failing this they demean, smear or degrade.
Ruth – ‘In my experience the first step taken by state agencies is to try and remove the target and then failing this they demean, smear or degrade.’
Exactly, not forgetting the additional tools of intimidation and harassment, which they also frequently employ like the gutless morons they are. :-0
I hope you are keeping well Ruth.
Oh dear. Such delusions of grandeur. Can you please get it into your conspiracy-addled heads that MI5, CIA and Mossad possibly have more important things to do than write scurrilous stuff on this site to irritate a bunch of lefties. Is it beyond your comprehension that there are lots of people in the world on the internet who have very different opinions to you? Get over yourselves. They’re not agents of the state. They just can’t stand your opinions and have the right to express their anger/differences/contempt. If you don’t like it, go back to the pre-internet age.
Sure thing Al… :-0
Larry will just come back in another guise, under another name.
Just look at his postings – its his job – that’s his mission.
CB
What a hoot! Anyone who criticises Craig Murray must, of course, be an agent of some Zionist organisation. Please, you are only massing his monumentally inflated ego.
Suhayl,
my apologies. Actually, I thought “Craig Oldfield” and “Piers C Structures” were Apostate. I still do. I don’t believe that Jaded is Apostate; the style is different.
It wasn’t meant to be like this! Originally, you couldn’t get an Internet connection without identifying yourself somewhere. Then the IP addresses ran short so the ISPs introduced “Dynamic IP addresses” and Internet anonymity was born.
Suhayl, you’re identifiable, you’re a published author. Craig is identifiable, he’s a public figure. I have put up a little web page to identify myself to some extent, with contact details for anyone who wants to know more. I believe in standing up and being counted, and I’m glad to live in a country where I can do so in relative safety.
Foolishness is widespread and Internet anonymity compounds the problem, which plays into the hands of the Hard State. Power doesn’t *need* to work hard to discredit a site like this; the ‘Open Door’ policy attracts all sorts of fools who, emboldened by anonymity, waltz in and make a mess.
I second cyberjounalist.net at July 9, 2010 6:34 PM. Registration via valid e-mail only.
So, all opponents are not only Zionist agents, they are also one person (since there couldn’t possibly be many people who hold the opposite view from yours, obviously).
What a bunch of weirdos!
“I second cyberjounalist.net at July 9, 2010 6:34 PM. Registration via valid e-mail only.”
I’ve been doing some stuff with Drupal recently. You can set that up to require email + password; it then generates a password and sends it to email, requiring it to work. It then won’t allow any more registrations with that email; one name per address.
It wouldn’t prevent abuse, but it’d make non-abuse so much the easier default as to make it clear when tones of voice were taking the piss. But then, it is anyway, before long, isn’t it ? No point taking the piss if no-one notices. It all makes work for the admins to do.
The only blogs I’ve seen without this kind of noise are those with serious moderators giving the yes/no to each and every post, maybe even intervening to give public details of how they think people are contravening … it all makes work for the admins to do.
Another thing about requiring login is, it gives you per-user session memory. It would be possible to set up an interface where people could decide they just plain didn’t want to read anything written by specified usernames, which would then be filtered out and invisible. I don’t know of any implementations of this … it all makes work for the admins to do.
Fantasy cricket, eh ?
If I say you’re a troll then you’re a troll. You’re all banned!
Ban everyone, Craig! You know it makes sense!
MJ: “The “orders” referred to are clearly orders not to scramble fighters and can therefore be reasonably construed as stand-down orders.”
The orders were more likely to be shoot-down orders. This is what I mean when I said the “stand-down” has been extrapolated out of thin air. Has anyone at all backed up the claim that they were given or passed on or questioned a “stand-down” order? I don’t believe they have which is why Norman Mineta’s testimony is always cited. Remember that in this situation he’d just arrived and wasn’t sure what was going on.
“I’m not sure who DRG was on the thread and I don’t recall the interchange (link?), but my point was that the official passenger manifests have never been published. The 911 Commission did not request them and they are not in the public domain.”
No, your point originally was that THERE WERE NO ARAB NAMES ON THE FLIGHT MANIFESTS. Since it has been pointed out that you are not using a flight manifest as evidence for your “No Arab names” claim you have moved the goalposts to questioning whether you have ever seen the flight manifests in question. Now, what would a flight manifest look like, do you think?
Like this? Oh, look whose name is at number 13:
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Image:Flight_11_Manifest_a.jpg
Alfred says, “Sure they were faked. Here’s an informative CBC interview with Prof. David Ray Griffin about the cell phone calls, which even the FBI concluded were impossible.”
Oh dear! Prof. David Ray Grifffin is now cited as an expert on cell phone and voice-morphing technology. Of course, few of the calls were actually made from cell phones most of them were made by airfones and the only conceivable way in which these could be “faked” is if they were playing a hoax on their family members who received the calls or if their families went along with this elaborate wheeze.
Heh conspiraloons – here’s your voice-morphing technology, OVER EIGHT YEARS after 911. Keep in mind that Roger Ebert’s speech was widely recorded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyxgSLESz8&feature=related
Alfred wrote-“This may very well be true, but why should the British, who occupy a very small and crowded country, be compelled to move over an make over half of some cities already, and more than half the country eventually, to an endless stream of people from else where. Objection to this need have nothing whatsoever to do with bigotry. But getting that idea through the head of a Liberal bigot would take more explosives than required to bring down the Twin Towers. ”
well one thing i can promise you- I will get all of those paksitan , bangaldeshi and india immigrants out of uk if you can promsie me that you can get all of those english immigrants who have moved to outside england in last 50 years alone -and not last 200 years.
you have spread like a pest and accuse others of coming over to your country when you have destroyed their country. the msiot immigration to uk is happening because uk was and ius instu,mental in destrying the cultur. economis and wealth of otehr countriews in last 30 years-i am not talking baout last 200 years.
massive tranfer of money has happend in last 30 years from third world improvished by uk sponsored nealiberalism and ,money briought o uk and cayman island alls tolen money -uk is living off the money of the third world today. itis a protaction racket that is what uk is living off and calls it service industry.
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the Corporation of the City of London, is virtually a self regulating and selfserving parasitic organisation so called this financial center has turned into into a self-regulating state like the Vatican.(ofocurse for the anglosaxon protestants only God is money and nothing else.).
The ruthless advantage-seeking was racheted up around 1980 and it may have been inspired by the fact that insiders in Lloyd’s of London were facing bankruptcy, conspired to offload their losses onto 34,000 foreigners and women and got away with it.
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A perfect example…I watched the show “Reaper” this last year. In one episode the devil is running a company whose business is the corruption of souls. When explaining to his son how his business works, this is his exact quote…
“Did you know, beginning in the late 19th century, corporations were granted all the rights of the individual, but none of the annoying responsibilities. They lack, almost by design, any kind of moral compass, conscience, or compassion. Basically, corporations are a way to enact sociopathic behavior on a grand scale. In short, they’re what makes this country so damn great.” this is what is called so called democracy in entgland-a corportocracy which has been exported all over to the benefit of parasitic english .
‘Larry’ and his pals are certainly still here, as ‘Zionist Troll’, ‘Jim’, ‘Petra Dean’, etc. Of course those elements of the state would wish to disrupt the main medium of communication of a senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office official who turned into a whistleblower.
If the state infiltrates trade unions and activist groups like CND, CAAT and environmental groups, even little ones, even very obviously ‘harmless’ ones, it would be crazy not to try and infiltrate and disrupt cyber-based discussion forums. Anyone who has engaged in activism on the ground is aware of this dynamic.
It’s interesting that Alan Campbell seems not to have read widely on this subject, but seems to enjoy suggesting that to posit the obvious is a symptom of delusions of grandeur. No, it’s realism. Mr Campbell, perhaps you would do well to read the link which Vronsky provided earlier in this thread. There are many other articles on the subject.
The world of information is hugely contested; propaganda is as important as guns-on-the-ground. And in the end, that is what it is about. The cyber-trolls – though some will simply be independent mischief-makers – are part of the imperialist war machine. No, we won’t go away, we won’t leave the web. We’re here to stay. And so are ‘they’.
Avatar Singh, while your anti-imperialist analyses are often spot-on, here wrt corporatism, offshore eceonomics, protection rackets and the City of London, and of course I agree with you wrt your comments on S. Asian communities in Britain and British ex-pats elsewhere, your tendency to essentialise (as in ‘Anglo-Saxon’ and ‘parasitic English’) risks being assigned as simply the other side of the coin which people like Alfred like to spin. It plays into the hands of those who want to deploy racial analyses of historical and contemporary world events. I write this as a ‘comrade’ because I think you have very important things to say and I think that they would be more powerful still if you lay-off the essentialism a bit.
“The orders were more likely to be shoot-down orders”.
I see. So while shoot-down orders were in place the USAF did nothing, even though it had ample time to follow the orders, intercept the plane and shoot it down. Only once the orders were lifted did the USAF do anything, even though it was now required not to. You’d be better off pursuing the pizza theory.
“your point originally was that THERE WERE NO ARAB NAMES ON THE FLIGHT MANIFESTS”.
As originally published there were not. The first lists were published, by the Washington Post and others, on Sept 12, before the FBI had released the names of the alleged hijackers. No Arab names were on the lists. A couple of days later, when the FBI had released the names, the same lists were in circulation but were renamed ‘victim lists’. It stayed that way for several years, until the Moussoauri trial in 2007, when the FBI suddenly came up with new lists that included the alleged hijackers’ names. None of the lists in circulation appear to have come directly from the airlines. The 911 Commission did not ask for them as evidence.
All this may or may not be significant. Without seeing the verifiable and original lists it’s impossible to say. I haven’t argued anything other than the above and am not sure which goalposts I’ve moved.
MJ,
regarding your comment of July 9, 2010 4:38 PM, could you specify the location for that; it’s a long thread now, but I’d like to take a look at it.
MJ,
and regarding your 11:19 post above, I felt that Angrysoba’s reply to you was mis-representative of your argument. He lost some credibility with me on this. But this really belongs on the 9/11 thread; I won’t continue it here.