St Andrews Iran Debate 55


I am happy to report that at St Andrews the motion “This House Would Resort to War to Prevent a Nuclear Iran” was defeated by about 90% to 10%. More down to the students good sense than to my speech, I think. As St Andrews is not exactly a bastion of left liberalism, I was rather pleased by this. Particularly as the debate took place not far from the Werritty parental home…


55 thoughts on “St Andrews Iran Debate

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  • ingo

    Chris, although you are right, in interesting times as these, most people have their day filled with making ends meet. Nobody cares about anybody else’s sovereignty and there is more political ground to be met by campainging for the removal of dogshit then there is for an important issue that is deflected by the MSM.
    Drones can be subverted, they run remotely controlled on certain frequencies I presume, which means they can be scanned for and scrambled, ideally as they take off, as to maximise the effectiveness of the weapon, hitting those who do not giveashit and send them off to breach sovereign borders.

    If Scotland would send a ‘Jimmy drone’ to stop the BICOM foreign policy plotters, all hell would break loose in the MSM, Norfolk would refuse to send its best Barley and the wiski would become inferior to that of the Irish and what is then gonna happen? next thing you have remotely controled Haggisses pelting Manchester.
    Were these students first second or third year?, because I felt as if the third year students at UEA were somewhat more taken over by some of what they learned/been led to believe, then those in the first and second year, maybe due to the pressure they are under to conform and produce the right answers.

  • Methuselah Now

    Hi,

    Has anyone seen todays cynical/manipulated news:

    – Pre-report PR about the sick-notes, on a saturday,
    – Mark Duggan story, and police response,
    – The right of appellants to appeal laws/judgments related to human rights and immigration
    – Syria meet-up, it worked for Libya, the same strategy will be extended,
    – Even harder to protest in so-called western democracies than it was for the last Iraq war, with a more supine media and rightous-silencing-patriotism cranked up even more since.

    All on a single day.

    If you’re a person who cares, but isn’t experienced in the long-term field of anti-governemnt/establishment activism, how much hope can you have in the future?

    No wonder so many of my peers are so apathetic to both news and govt. politics.

    Kind regards,

    MN

  • Jives

    Interesting but not that surprising to me Craig.

    In more and more key issues of our times i feel we are going to see the stats of 99% to 1% becoming more common,whether the issue is war,economics or phone-hacking,for example.

    The 1% have never looked more fucked and yet they still don’t seem to get it.

  • Komodo

    With regard to the supine media, worth noting that as far as international news goes, the only source is in most cases an news agency, one of half a dozen. While our media may individually have a man on the gound, all he can usually do is what the agencies do, tart up official government releases and keep his ear to the ground, meantime composing op-eds and think pieces to camera to bulk the thin information out. And that satisfies the supine public, most of whose interest in the media is confined to sport. Of which the coverage is obsessively detailed, by contrast. Go figure.
    .

    Chris Shaw, yes. In a nutshell. 1.1 for you. And it’s worrying to see how three of our PM’s, having taken office, decided that a war would be a good career move and started shutting down the alternatives to be sure of getting one.

  • Komodo

    MN:-Most of the students I come across are thoroughly nice kids with their hearts in the right places, and this lasts right into postgrad country. All the information they need to make an effective fuss is out here on the web. But they are young, they think they are immortal, and as a rule it takes time and intimations of mortality to induce an interest in the world outside their own circle. I think as times become harder, the direct impact on their lives will increase, and more will become aware that civilisation as they understand it is not a given.

  • marcus

    I thought switching to a war economy was how capatlist countries reset their economies? Rationing, conscription and limiting the need for public services not connected to the military machine?
    If Iran is attacked my bet is they will impliment this strategy- conveniently dealing with the unemployment problem, the anti-government feeling (washed away with patriotism- or a lettter of white feathers to those that don’t subscibe…). Is this why they,ve been downsizing the regulars?
    Sooo- maybe these wars are ‘needed’ in a sense? What if this is the way it is?! Perhaps all liberalism etc has given us is idealist thinking and no practical alternative to the above. After all the human condition needs war right?

  • Methsuelah Now

    Hi,

    Komodo, you are right, but I mix with a age/range of people, and it’s not so much as people being right-wing, or not caring, but the sense that if they care, they will only be made angry and impotent, so why bother, and now you have the police giving out pre-warning/threats of force/detention, our establishment/media proudly insisting that anyone involved and going over the line in spite of what is known about group dynamics/psychology should lose their jobs, education, benefit, housing, go to prison, and have their whole life’s potential be dismissed for caring for their cause or momentarily losing it, while the opportunities to exercise the lie that they live in a democracy, are rarer and rarer.

    Another example of the culture that is being created, comes from a muslim brit I know, the most gentle and selfless person you could imagine. I wanted to show him an episode of the mainstream comedy “It’s always sunny in philidelphia” the F/x series, and the episode where there’s a israeli who builds a fence around the bar – it’s funny and was pertinent related to a building matter, but after transferring it from my phone to his laptop, and as soon as seeing it, he was paranoid about having it deleted immediately so as to prevent the perceived consequences that are promulgated in our media and by politicians of what you’re allowed to do as a muslim.
    Even when I explained this was a mainstream show broadcast on normal tv, he couldn’t comprehend the possibility of a muslim watching (and keeping) a show with any references to Israel, lest some miraculous circumstance where his computer is searched.

    It’s depressing when the freedom of externalising ones thoughts and to share them perosnally with others are being further and further cornered into a crevice. Don’t these idiots, having studied at the best educational establishments realise that society needs its pressure-valves, and either they allow continuous meaningful protesting without fear of police records and other intimidation and record-keeping, or a real revolution, as has happened in the past, in our own country to more recent events in the middle east, will eventually instantaneously happen when it really gets too much, unless they want to distract us (via work/busyness) with the sort of economic growth occurring in Russia and China

    Yours kindly,

    MN

  • Komodo

    MN-thanks for that.
    “Don’t these idiots, having studied at the best educational establishments realise that society needs its pressure-valves…”

    From my experience of Old Etonians, no. And the culture is also integrated into the better Oxbridge colleges. These establishments are the base networks for potential rulers (as determined by themselves or their rich parents) It’s not just that they have little contact with the world of us groundlings, but they see it in an entirely different, and extremely detached, way.
    While we are ruled by these people, there is no hope whatever of change unless we bring it about ourselves. Back to the difficulty of energising the people…

  • Methuselah Now

    Hi Craig,

    I Don’t know if you’ve had the time to check this post and the related links in the comments about the lies the newer head of the IEAE is now taking part in popularising, filtered through neoconism, but for any other readers, always be careful of anything bad you hear related to Iran:

    http://mondoweiss.net/2011/11/iaea-report-is-a-dud-and-moon-of-alabama-says-its-confused-nanodiamond-production-with-nukes.html

    – I’d strongly urge a read of the comments as well.

    The people in support of the 2nd war of modern Iraq, lied before the war, scared everyone, had their lies promulgated by multiple players and media, diminished and slandered those who were sceptical, and then after a few year of blatent facts challenging those narrative lies, carried on lying after the event, didn’t lose their jobs for being so wrong, were given repeated opportunities to act like they were still right, continuing to lie and given further work until their ubiquity in column inches and air-time almost matched what they had previously by their friends in the failing broad media, to then be repeating those myths, claim their narrative of rightousness and expertise on the subject, and with the masses having been conditioned, are again planning on using the same methodolgy to ramp us up to War, whatever local (in theatre) tactics are used.

    But with far better information-sharing then was available in 2003, the potential exists, for the lies being far harder to conceive and analysis to be manipulated with less useful choke-points of filtration, not least when a majority of this country are on one social-network or another and regulary read informed blogs such as this (e.g. the ieae report had to be pre-hyped before publication this time, and was quickly dismissed for those who care; previously it would have been a story with far more teeth running longer; the broader media will still report it for the ship is big, but each time, their are diminishing returns on the lie).

    Yours kindly,

    MN

  • Snickid

    From a US perspective, the push for war with Iran is a recognition that the US has ‘lost’ to Iran in Iraq, and is also going to ‘lose’ the war in Afghanistan on Iran’s eastern flank – leaving Iran the unchallenged major power in this fairly small part of the world.

    From an Israeli/US (and therefore UK-government) perspective, war with Iran would be good, because it would cause further violence and unrest across the region drawing attention away from Israel’s ongoing degradation and dispossession of the Palestinians.

    The timeline of recent events is significant in this regard:

    1. Oct. 10: US announces farcical Iranian ‘plot’ to blow up Saudi Ambassador to America: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/11/iranians-charged-us-assassination-plot

    2. Oct. 21: US announces total withdrawal from Iraq (apart from 16,000 (!) US staff to remain at American Embassy): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/obama-us-troops-withdrawal-iraq

    3. Nov. 1: Palestine voted as full member of UNESCO by massive majority –US votes against: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/01/unesco-countries-vote-palestinian-membership?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

    4. Nov. 2: US steps up plans for for attack on Iran (with UK support):
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/02/uk-military-iran-attack-nuclear

    5. Nov. 8: International Atomic Energy Authority (IAEA) releases report which West claims to show Iran is developing a nuclear bomb (although the report contains no significant new information to that in the 2007 IAEA report, which stated that Iran had probably stopped its nuclear weapons programme in 2003): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/08/iaea-report-reaction-sanctions-fears

  • arsalan

    No one wants to slaughter Iranians for the pleasure of the Zionist masters, but the Zionist masters themselves.

    So, I am surprised 10% voted in favour. I didn’t think the UJS would manage to smuggle in that many from all over the country to skew the vote that far?

  • Komodo

    Apologies for the off-topic, but it may be that Craig’s questions about Foxwerritygould may have been registered in the mainstream:
    .
    On R4’s “Now Show this week, on the topic of Border Agency controls being relaxed..
    .
    “…they spent so much time letting Adam Werritty in and out of the country to go to meetings he wasn’t at…”
    .
    Now please reread Snickid’s excellent post above and don’t mind me…

  • ingo

    Azra, would it not be fair to say that Ron Paul was the only one who questioned the same aproach as was taken before the Iraq war?
    Ehud Barak, speaking ambiguiously over Irans alledged attempts to make a nuclear device, failed to mentions Israels own ambiguity. But what all these noises have in common is that they are preparing the wider public of the very likelyhood that these fascists will attack Iran.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/20111116124813378449.html

  • larry Levin

    If parliament votes for attacking Iran would those labobur/conservative/liberals friends of israel have to recuse themselves,

  • Azra

    I personally believe it is war of words, the western governments know very well that Iran deference are ten times or more better than Iraq, and Iranian government’s arm is too long for them to entertain any idea of attacking Iran.

  • Ben

    Azra,
    Saddam had no army, his tanks did not operate, he had no effective means of transportation, his army was not able to communicate, and he was a terrible general, hence the notions of Cakewalk to Baghdad.
    ,
    As the firing started, and Baghdad airport fell, a plane load of Iraqi generals, and their families left for destinations unknown in US, all these had been bought and bribed, and Saddam was on his own. Nasiriyah was the only real battle fought in Iraq, in the initial phases.
    ,
    Iran on the other hand can and will look after herself, the numbers of dead would be high, and for that reason alone, Iranians have already prepared three hundred and fifty thousands of graves, but their determination to fight any invader or aggressor ought not be doubted. Iranians have been facing an existential threat for many years from the threat of attacks by the US, or the rabid zionist lunatics, and are ready for any eventualities, without doubt they will fight to the death.

  • wendy

    “Perhaps the UK will not be the US’s poodle when the US starts another war.”
    .
    grant shapps on bbc question time pretty much implied that the UK govt was seeking to enter into war against syria ..
    .
    they are just looking for a mechanism to make it appear ‘legal’.. and for ‘humanitarian’ reasons
    .
    when nato entered into the libya war there had been 1500 deaths by the end there had been 50 000 and 100 000 maimed according to the NTC

  • Tiwo

    @John Mack

    ‘Perhaps the UK will not be the US’s poodle when the US starts another war.’
    .
    .
    Isn’t the converse true? Clear case of the tail wagging the dog.

  • Mary

    Important. Gareth Porter who is extremely reliable on giving us the truth.
    .
    Ex-Inspector Rejects IAEA Iran Bomb Test Chamber Claim
    by Gareth Porter / November 19th, 2011
    .
    IPS — A former inspector for the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has repudiated its major new claim that Iran built an explosives chamber to test components of a nuclear weapon and carry out a simulated nuclear explosion.
    .
    The IAEA claim that a foreign scientist – identified in news reports as Vyacheslav Danilenko – had been involved in building the alleged containment chamber has now been denied firmly by Danilenko himself in an interview with Radio Free Europe published Friday.
    .
    The latest report by the IAEA cited “information provided by Member States” that Iran had constructed “a large explosives containment vessel in which to conduct hydrodynamic experiments” – meaning simulated explosions of nuclear weapons – in its Parchin military complex in 2000.
    .
    The report said it had “confirmed” that a “large cylindrical object” housed at the same complex had been “designed to contain the detonation of up to 70 kilograms of high explosives”. That amount of explosives, it said, would be “appropriate” for testing a detonation system to trigger a nuclear weapon.
    .
    But former IAEA inspector Robert Kelley has denounced the agency’s claims about such a containment chamber as “highly misleading”.
    /…
    .
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/11/ex-inspector-rejects-iaea-iran-bomb-test-chamber-claim/

  • Mary

    Syria’s Opposition Is Armed

    Placard-Waving Protesters are actually Machine Gun-Wielding Terrorists.

    By Tony Cartalucci
    .
    November 18, 2011 “Information Clearing House” — The “Free Syria Army” is literally an army of militant extremists, many drawn not from Syria’s military ranks, but from the Muslim Brotherhood, carrying heavy weapons back and forth over the Turkish and Lebanese borders, funded, supported, and armed by the United States, Israel, and Turkey. The latest evidence confirming this comes in the form of a report out of the International Institute for Strategic Studies where Senior Fellow for Regional Security at IISS-Middle East Emile Hokayem openly admits Syria’s opposition is armed and prepared to drag Syria’s violence into even bloodier depths.
    .
    This report comes in sharp contrast to the propaganda fed via the corporate-media and the West’s foreign ministers on a daily basis, where the violence is portrayed as one-sided, with Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad “gunning down” throngs of peaceful, placard waving protesters. Just as in Libya where these so-called “peaceful protesters” turned out to be hordes of genocidal racist Al Qaeda mercenaries, led by big-oil representatives, fighting their cause upon a verified pack of lies, so too is Syria’s “pro-democracy” movement which is slowly being revealed as yet another militant brand of extremists long cultivated by Anglo-American intelligence agencies, whose leadership is harbored in London and Washington and their foot soldiers supplied a steady stream of covert military support and overt rhetorical support throughout the compromised corporate media.
    .
    The unrest in Syria from the beginning was entirely backed by Western corporate-financier interests and part of a long-planned agenda for region-wide regime change. Syria has been slated for regime change since as early as 1991. In 2002, then US Under Secretary of State John Bolton added Syria to the growing “Axis of Evil.” It would be later revealed that Bolton’s threats against Syria manifested themselves as covert funding and support for opposition groups inside of Syria spanning both the Bush and Obama administrations.
    /…
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29769.htm

  • Ken

    I am getting pretty sick of the media campaign against Iran. The week before this report was released the headlines were all that Iran was on the way to having a nuke,every report said the same thing. Haaretz the Israeli newspaper were carrying about 5 stories a day about Iran all on the same subject. The media in the UK just followed everyone else in playing the war drums.Now it turns out that the report is just a bunch of rehashed intelligence that proves nothing at all and we know that the head of the IAEA is following the American government line as exposed by wikileaks. Most of this info that is years old comes from some laptop that comes from some western intelligence organisation and no one knows where it came from in the first place,could be a plant as this has happened before. We have an ex IAEA inspector telling us that there is nothing new in this report and that the findings are basically dubious to down rights lies. Not that I am a fan of the Iranian government as they are pretty much a bunch of thugs to members of their own population but one story always makes me think about them and weapons of mass destruction. In the Iran-Iraq war the Iraqis under Saddam used chemical weapons supplied I might add by many western powers and which killed thousands of Iranians. The Iranians who had chemical weapons never used them on the Iraqis,that says a lot to me.

  • Komodo

    Thanks for the Porter link, Mary. Remember thinking that someone had intentionally got their wires crossed, as soon as a nanodiamond specialist was mentioned.
    “information provided by member states”..so no one with any conceivable axe to grind could possibly bias the IAEA findings, eh? No-one who has never been inspected by the IAEA, anyway. No, sorry, I’m wrong.
    http://www.antiwar.com/rep/dstar7.html

  • ingo

    Could not agree more with you Ken, it is the sickest and most obscene show currently. Whilst It is easy to follow snickids time line, I’m not so sure that the problems in Iraq are over or that the demand for US troops to leave can avert the machinations of the biggest oil company on the globe. Exxons game play, using the central Government to piss off the Kurds something rotten will be a destabilising factor for years to come. Exxon has the clout to create chaos and make it necessarry for US troops to intervene, not an impossibility.
    Question to all:
    What will you do if the UK Government partcipates in the attack on Iran?

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