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7,459 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued

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  • Good In Parts

    Not Forgetting Haydar Thayer continued

    Nary a mention of the non compos mentis dependent son of Suhalia. I guess the media do not consider him a deserving victim.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Winder if the Israelis ever gave William Hershkowitz compensation to his family for his murder after he went bonkers over the assassinations of the al-Hillis et al. in the French Alps.

    The Mossad went to considerable trouble to recover Eli Cohen’s watch for his family after he was executed in 1964 for spying on Syria.

    It just dismissed Hershkowitz as a crazy person who should never have been allowed into the program because he was suicidal.

    Members of the Diaspora thinking of returning home, please take note.

  • Skeptic

    Did anyone see the two deaths that occurred in the France World Cup victory celebrations? All the hallmarks of cover up murders – well the car crash is maybe not the canal; dive.

  • Good In Parts


    Nope, but I did watch The Take (Bastille Day) which is just like Chevaline but with more Banlieues and less Banjos.

  • Skeptic

    Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington and Anthony Bourdain were all ‘suicided’ as they knew about the high profile Paedophile ring commonly referred to as Pizzagate.

  • Good In Parts

    Anyone got any views on the state of the investigation with respect to the search for the Luger?

    I have some thoughts which I shall cobble together when I get a chance.

    • intp1

      To hide a sensitive, fully de-briefed, extracted source? Mississippi, couldn’t be more out of the way. Thompson = a cooperative asset, paid to marry her for immigration/protection purposes. The Klan is fully penetrated and isn’t actively committing atrocities these days and there are people it wouldn’t cross. I.e. was she originally a high value relative of someone high up in the Saddam regime?
      The huge elephant in this particular room though, is that Thompson died the same day Iqbal did. The chances of that being a coincidence are literally astronomic.

  • Good In Parts

    Not forgetting the al-Hillis as we again approach the anniversary without anyone being brought to book.

    Justice delayed is justice denied.

    • intp1

      I do not understand why the Mod tolerates you on this site. Personally I don’t believe you simply randomly spew irrelevant confused anti-Semitic or apparently pro-terrorist, un-supported blabber. I personally think your contributions deliberately try to confuse and potentially smear this site by association.

      The big question re. Khalid Masood is why, at The most obvious target in London, (which has c. 2000 armed officers) armed officers were stood down, effectively facilitating damage and injury. In other words How he wasn’t lawfully killed earlier, by an affective security cordon. The Why, I can easily figure out for myself.

  • michael norton

    I wonder if Lucas Clerc was shooting near Mark Sutton, to intimidate him.
    Mark was running a vegan restaurant.
    I expect hunters, sometimes shoot to frighten off non-hunters.

    Could it really be true the hunter was using a Kalashnikov?

    • intp1

      I have seen these pics, zoomed out, before -The pic of the bicycle frame, it is well up and on the stream side of the road . Slightly further up than the uphill end of the lay-by. Some people on this site wondered if it had been moved there by the police because it was in the way, otherwise how did it get up there? That pic was taken as they maneuvered a flatbed to take away the BMW. Pics of SM´s body were initially suppressed out of ¨respect¨ and are thought to be early in the activity.
      Seeing it again now makes me wonder how/why Al Hilli mashed up the rider and bike so comprehensively. He was supposed to have dragged the bike and Mollier with the car, as he was desperately trying to escape the shooter but you can see he really caught him dead on, presumably with the rear of the car.
      It makes me wonder if he was deliberately trying to mow SM down? Which if so, could only mean that SM was a threat?
      Other overhead pics show evidence markers (which were presumed to be bullet casings) downhill of the lay-by and about six marked in front and near the English driver side of the BMW.

  • ReCogNito

    I wonder why we have never heard any proper description of the attacker/ or number of attackers witnessed by the eldest girl who actually saw the shooter ????

  • Skeptic

    The first thing any investigator needs to ask is Cui Bono? That of course leads to Motive. We already know the Means and the Opportunity. And if these resemble any other similar event we then have a Modus Operandi.
    MH370 may seem to have no similarity to the Alps Murders …. unless we look at Cui Bono again … It is well know that Freescale Employees who hold the patent rights to a very high tech piece of gadgetry were on MH370. We know that Boeing patented QRS-11 and QRS-14 remote control of vehicles devices. Most likely also used to control the planes that smashed into the WTC on 9/11. We also know an unrelated building went down on the same day despite not being hit by a plane. Once again who benefits?
    We know there was a systematic program of eliminating Iranian and Iraqi scientists. Who benefits?
    By way of deception ….

  • michael norton

    A good question might be
    Why was Nicholas Mollier Thomas killed?

    If you could get to the bottom of that, you might solve the al-Hilli Massacre

  • michael norton

    We have an address of Nicholas Mollier-Thomas next to the French Intelligence Headquarters in Paris
    and in 2014 next to the French Tontouta Spy base in New Caledonia.
    Nicholas died at about three o’clock in the afternoon, on a Sunday, after visiting his mother in his childhood home, on the way back to his wife and children, in the next village, yet he barrel-rolled of the bridge of Flumet, Haute-Savoie

    • michael norton

      We have never actually been told where Sylvan Mollier hung his head at night but his nuclear fuel factory is just two and a half miles from the home of
      his killed relative, Nicholas Mollier Thomas.

  • michael norton

    Was French cyclist the target? New Zealand Herald
    The cyclist shot dead in the Alps may have been the main target of the massacre, French police say, not the British al-Hilli family.

    Investigators made the extraordinary claim as Sylvain Mollier, who worked in the nuclear industry, was temporarily buried in a secret ceremony yesterday.

    This went against the wishes of the 45-year-old’s family, who had asked for him to be cremated.

    It is believed forensic experts still want to examine his body for clues, which would have been impossible if the remains had been destroyed. French investigators are examining the theory that he may have led a double life and been the intended target of the shooting.

  • michael norton

    olice are to look into whether a suspected serial killer could be behind the unsolved Alps murders in which a British man, his wife and mother-in-law were killed in a forest car park.

    Saad al-Hilli, Iqbal al-Hilli and her mother Suhaila al-Allaf were shot dead on holiday in Chevaline, near Annecy, in September 2012, along with a passing French cyclist, Sylvain Mollier.

    Despite a massive manhunt, the investigation has all-but petered out.

    Police are now questioning a 34-year-old ex-soldier who is the main suspect in two other cases in the area.

    Now twelve months, since the new French Prosecutor, re-opened the al Hilli case, I wonder if they have yet come to any conclusions?

    • michael norton

      Annecy prosecutor Véronique Dénizot confirmed to the Telegraph that the case will be re-opened to probe Lelandais’ possible involvement.

      “There is no particular urgency but verifications will be made.”

      No motive has been found by police despite exhaustive investigations in Britain, France and Iraq. Investigators have previously suggested the murderer’s profile could be military.

      No urgency, how many years do they need to solve a mass slaughter?

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    You are on the right track, Micael Norton. in thinking that associates of Sylvain Mollier might have been murdered for looking into the killings of the al-Hillis et al.

    You just have the wrong guy and his murdered associate. It was William Hershkowitz and his associate supervisor in Israel’s covert government. And dead murderers tell no tales, and are never convicted of any thing…

  • Good In Parts

    /aʃ/ [tʁwa] – Mobylette Madness. . .

    I suggest that the killer rode up the combe on a motorcycle via Arnand then left it concealed and approached Le Martinet parking on foot.

    SM is assumed to have been the principal target and that he was observed by the killer setting off from Ugine or observed in-transit on the cycle track.

    14:10:00 – Approx time SM sets off from Ugine, heading along the cycle track

    14:52:00 – ONF1 (heading up) passes LFR
    14:52:30 – LMC (heading up) passes LFR

    15:00:00 – ONF2 meet LMC at second hairpin and exchange a few words
    15:01:00 – LMC start descent from Martinet parking
    15:02:30 – ONF2 start descent from Martinet parking
    15:09:00 – LMC (heading down) passes LFR
    15:09:30 – ONF2 (heading down) passes LFR

    15:09 to 15:15 – MOTO ridden by the killer (heading up) passes CA (his first mobylette)

    15:10:30 – SAH (heading up) passes LFR then turns back to Arnand
    15:11:00 – SAH (heading down) passes CA before entering Arnand
    15:12:00 – WBM spots SM crossing the T junction ahead of him
    15:12:10 – WBM spots LMC and ONF2 (near the eglise)
    15:16:00 – SM (heading up) passes LFR (but not seen by him)
    15:16:30 – WBM (heading up) passes LFR (but not seen by him)
    15:17:00 – TBR (heading up) passes CA (his second mobylette)
    15:17:30 – TBR overtakes WBM shortly after the old mill
    15:17:30 – SAH passes CA heading up the combe (his second voiture)
    15:18:nn – SAH party last photo taken

    15:21:00 – SAH passes the sign by the old mill heading up the combe
    15:27:30 – ONF1 (heading down) passes TBR at Martinet parking
    15:29:00 – ONF1 (heading down) crosses SAH (the 4×4 seen by Zainab)
    15:29:00 – ONF1 (heading down) crosses SM

    15:30:00 – ONF1 (heading down) crosses WBM (the 4×4 seen by WBM)
    15:32:nn – SM phone call
    15:36:00 – WBM (heading up) crosses TBR exiting side track 550m down from the barrier
    15:36:00 – ONF1 (heading down) passes CA
    15:37:00 – TBR starts up side track towards Mont Benoit (where he will hear the shots)
    15:37:00 – SAH arrival at Le Martinet
    15:37:00 – PB+2 (heading up) passe CA (his third voiture)
    15:38:30 – SM arrives at Le Martinet parking – shooting starts
    15:39:30 – Killer leaves Le Martinet parking – runs back towards MOTO

    15:40:00 – WBM arrival at Le Martinet
    15:43:00 – WBM departs
    15:44:59 – First emergency call
    15:47:00 – WBM and PB return to Le Martinet
    15:48:00 – Second emergency call

    16:03:00 – Emergency services pass old mill

  • Good In Parts

    Shot in the back

    It was commonly assumed that SAH was shot in the back as he hurried to get into his BMW. However EM denied this, stating ‘he was not shot at this time’.

    My current thinking is that SAH was shot in the back when inside the car, in the drivers seat, leaning sharply over to the left.

    The killer probably shot him through the drivers side window when the BMW slowed down as it ran over SM.

      • michael norton

        What I mean is, you do not keep an unused one hundred year old gun in a cabinet, then take it out and shoot three people dead, including double head shots, then just slip it back in the cabinet.
        If it really was one hundred years old, it has a history.

      • intp1

        Or, more to the point the luger is the wrong weapon for the job; if this was even a semi-professional job, they would not take an antique weapon to shoot (actually four) people dead with 17/21 hits including neat double taps.
        No sensible shooter would plan to use such a weapon for this job (and need to take 3 antique magazines with them).

        So unless he wasn´t sensible or he did no planning, this is my current thinking.

        What if it was in fact a higher capacity device such as a Škorpion vz. 61, a machine pistol chambered for the same 7.65 mm parabellum ammunition, set on single shot. In fact the Skorpion was the weapon the police originally announced before they changed the story after they found a piece of luger handle. *Watch for initial announcements that got changed later because they didn´t fit the narrative*

        The luger handle pieces would need to be dropped deliberately then, or during the 1st days of the Clouseau debacle of an investigation. But that is exactly what you would do – to muddy the waters.

        Also, I dont buy the Lelandais theory, his other exploits have a completely different MO, e.g. the 7 year old female he shot and beat instead of abducted?

    • intp1

      You´re getting back at me for my last reply and that´s OK, at least I can follow your point now. You are exactly right! I am trying to undermine what ¨we know¨ because we know almost nothing about this incident, unless you preface the things we know with ¨we know we have been told¨-
      We are trying to evaluate theories and most of them will not be correct but some might be useful and I doubt we will ever be able to settle on only one candidate.
      To get to the bottom of this incident There is a need for analysis of:
      What ¨facts¨ are to what extent, likely to be true and why?
      What theories are consistent with what we have been told?
      What theories require us to doubt some of the things we have been told?
      Which of these potential lies would be consistent with which motives and how do those motives circle back to what theories?

      Here are some of my favorite problem solving quotes and adages to amuse.
      * A problem is the observable effect of a cause that resides somewhere in the past. – C.H. Kepner/ B.B. Tragoe
      Problem solving is best done in a small team. If this platform is an ad hoc, morphing set of teams of sorts then this adage comes to mind:
      * Four stages of a Team: Forming, Storming, Norming & Performing – Bruce Tuckman
      I think that we have rarely attained even the norming stage where some kind of logical, respectful discussion can take place without repeated churning, and we have not been there for some years.
      * For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
      * You must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool – Richard P. Feynman
      * Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth. – A. Conan Doyle -or MAY be the truth in our case.

      • michael norton

        intp1 If it is true, a fragment of the handle ( killing weapon) was embedded in the skull of the girl,
        they should have been able to extract the shootist DNA?
        If the French experts have not been able to manage there are other experts who probably could manage it.

        • michael norton

          1) If a fragment of the handle of the killing weapon was embedded in the skull of the girl, after the shootist smashed her head with the handle, there should be recoverable DNA on that handle from the killer.
          2) If a more modern weapon had been used but a fragment of handle from a 100 year old gun was dropped to deceive,
          then it is much less likely that recoverable DNA from the killer will come to light.

        • intp1

          I don´t remember a report of fragments in the girl´s head. from my memory, it was reported or implied quite early that the handle fragments were found at the lay-by. _Do you have any sources for the handle fragments in her head?_
          I should have thought it as easy to get a DNA hit from fragments on the road as from fragments on her head, if not easier.

          Of course DNA was another Clouseau clusterfcuk, whereby police supposedly mishandled evidence and then forgot to take samples from the attending police, and when they eventually did, it matched one of the cops. if you can believe all that nonsense.

          • michael norton

            There does only seem three options.
            1) fragment of 100 year old Luger was not found at the scene, the story is a fabrication.
            2) fragment of 100 year old Luger was dropped at the scene, to deceive.
            3) fragment of 100 year old Luger was found in the girl’s head.

          • michael norton

            If there was never a fragment of a hundred year old Luger found, then we have been spun, which would strongly indicate, the weapon was not a one hundred year old Luger, although the projectile, just, could be.

          • michael norton

            If it is true a one hundred year old Swiss Luger was used in Savoie to murder four adults on 5th September 2012,
            what would be the reason for using such an old First World War weapon?

            Much, much more likely that the intended victim is a Savoyard,
            than a family of British Iraqis?

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Cannot understand why the moderators of this site allow you to undermine what little we know about the massacre – i. e. the type of weapon used.

  • intp1

    @michael norton on March 16, 2019 at 08:53

    I think if a Luger was truly used, it would mean that the shooter is less likely to be a professional killer and more likely to be a lone nutter who found a Luger easy to acquire locally or himself a gun enthusiast/collector, perhaps ex military or maybe with Gladio associations? The motive more likely to be local enmities, a mistake or extremist racism or mental illness or some combination.

    Points against though.
    * Very efficient and unwavering shooting. Being a regular gun user or even a marksman is different to killing real people quickly, one after another, with precision. Indicates someone who has killed before and does so calmly, and without flinching.
    * Efficient extraction. However it was done, by motorcycle over country or SUV or by pretending to be a local paraglider, the shooter was gone and never to be seen again and as far as we know, without even a trace of how they got him out. Indicates a team with a plan.
    * Reaction and unusual interest by the British embassy with numbers of high level officials rushed to the scene that night including the Chief of Staff who is the overall manager of the nuts and bolts of the embassy, under the more ceremonial, Ambassador. Indicates high level crisis and fore-knowledge of at least the identities of the victims.
    * The person found at the scene, The ex-military New Zealander, William Brett Martin (WBM) who had moved bodies, broken into the car, switched off the engine, literally had blood on his hands, was released and invited to leave the country before forensic evidence was even fully gathered, let alone processed. Indicates that WBM, had special credentials. IMO he was either, baby-sitting the Al Hillis (badly), following SM, doing reconnaissance on an operation and/or he was the killer but he had a get out of jail card.
    * Iqbal´s two husbands died, along with her, on the same day on different continents. I once had a go at calculating the probability, using murder stats and actuary data, of two people, separating for years and being murdered or dying on the same exact date, the estimate came out to more than a 99.999999 probability of not being random. Indicates Iqbal, had some connection to the motive for Chevaline murders and that therefore the shooter´s motive was not local but was connected to that connection. BTW it also indicates either an unlikely necessity and need for an immediate eradication of James Thompson or that the killers really didn´t care, to the point of wanting those dots to be connected. I have always believed that the killer´s intention was to publicly punish and deter and that the message was to be understood by those that knew who and why.
    * The apparent enormous and ongoing effort but complete inadequacy and failure of the police investigation indicates to me that it was controlled from above and the primary point of it was always to not find the shooter or the truth but rather to manage perceptions and make sure the real truth was obfuscated.

  • intp1

    Re the Parabellum Borchardt-Luger Automatic Pistol.
    It has gotten to be a habit here to talk of a 100 year old Luger. The innovative Luger design is more than 100 years old (patented in 1898) but production ended sometime after WWII and souvenirs from the end of the war are probably the most common source of the pistol. There were numerous specs and special models for e.g. the Swiss, the German Navy the Americans etc. but from my research, the handle grips were mostly wooden. It was not until 1941 that some models were made with Bakelite. So if the fragments of handle that are reported (which I always thought were said to be plastic) are Bakelite, then the corresponding pistol would not have been manufactured as long as 100 years ago.

    • michael norton



      it would seem, if light could be shone on the question of the fragment of pistol grip

      some sense could be gleaned of the incident.

      First the French Authorities need to tell us exactly what they want us to understand.
      ( not necessarily what is true, just what they want us to believe)

      Let’s have a little go at re-fleshing the bone.

      Let’s say there were four people shot dead, with double head taps.

      They have wanted us to believe there was only ever one gunslinger and only ever one gun.

      Questions for The French Authorities

      1) Could they tell us do they want us to believe that four adults were shot dead by a single weapon?
      2) Could they tell us do they want us to believe they were all shot at that place where they were said to have been found by William Brett Martin?
      3) Could they tell us do they want us to believe that the elder girl was shot?
      4) Could they tell us do they want us to believe that after being shot the elder girl was smashed over the head by the butt of the only killing weapon used?
      4) Could they tell us do they want us to believe that a fragment of the killing weapon butt
      was found embedded in the head of the elder girl?
      5) Could they tell us what gun this fragment was from?

      • michael norton

        If the French Authorities answered yes to all those five questions, then they want us to believe that the whole thing happened and that they were quickly and precisely shot with an antique weapon.The fragment would surely be able to pinpoint that batch of weapons.
        The shootists DNA must be on that fragment, or on the girl or on the bike or on the car or on the persons of the dead people.

          • michael norton

            The son of a woman killed in an unsolved quadruple murder in the French Alps has been denied compensation – because of a dispute over the spelling of his father’s name.

            The 52-year-old suffers from severe mental illness and has been forced to live in a care home in Britain since his mother and carer, Suhaila al-Allaf, was shot dead in September 2012. She was aged 74.

            Mrs al-Allaf was murdered by a mystery gunman alongside her daughter Ikbal al-Hilli and son- in-law Saad al-Hilli, of Claygate, Surrey, on a remote mountain road near Annecy. Local cyclist Sylvain Mollier, 45, was also killed.

            The al-Hillis’s two daughters survived. Zeena, then aged four, hid in the footwell of the family’s BMW beside her dead mother and grandmother while sister Zainab, then seven, was shot and beaten but lived.

            Under French law, Mrs al-Allaf’s son, who has obsessive compulsive disorder that leaves him unable to go outside without supervision, is entitled to damages because his mother and sister ‘died as a result of a criminal offence’.

            But officials at the Fonds de Garantie – the French equivalent of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority – says he is ineligible because his father’s name is spelt differently on his sister’s birth certificate.

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