The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.
Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:
the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?
The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.
Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:
Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.
There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.
But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.
The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?
James
Neither the german killings nor checaline were ethnic.
Those were miney things. In germany those were somehow related to a drug/smuggling ring from Diyabakir/turkey. (i shall find a link lateron).
Unfortunately the evidence is secret and won’t be revealed simply because state agencies were involved. Same problem in chevaline.
Victims are never randomly selected.
You kill because of money depths, betrayal, smuggling or whistleblowing.
In professional assassinations there are no other reasons.
Checaline = chevaline
Miney = money
Sorry. (Above)
Great ref. Bluebird
19 Jul, 2013 – 11:15 am. Where do you find ’em?
Who was that “drug boss” lawyer that was killed around the same time in the US ?
Now that was a “pro”.
Unfront and personal. Three or four bullets into the guy in the car. And in a carpark.
They don’t need “21” bullets (or 25 if you count in French !).
I really suspect that the weapon used was carried in a shoulder holster. The reason more “defence” than “attack”.
That maybe to “carry” it there….easy on a motorbike ?
But if it’s a “lone nut” he’ll kill again. He has a “taste” for it now. And he got away. It’s no use killing…and your “work” goes unknown.
So I doubt it is a “lone nut”.
There is another motivation at play here. Maybe “money” ?
The other thing….
And this is with all due respect to Saad.
His 2009 to 2010 turnover was 26K.
He has a wife and two kids.
The “skill” that he has, isn’t paying that much.
His wife wants to study to be a “dentist”.
Oh, I forgot, she is already a dentist right ?
So your “conversion” course wouldn’t take too long ?
You worked in Dubai ? But I guess you didn’t train there. Who does ?
So your training was where ? UK ? Sweden ?
Your uncle is a “pharma” prof in Sweden (the class of 85) and your sister is at Reading (studying a PhD no less).
Your mother is a national there ! So you went elsewhere to train ??
Like “the sandpit” ???? Why ?
Oddly Saad goes contracting. Picks up a “livable” for a guy with little outgoings in year one (01 02 42K) then it drops off.
For 4 years he “ticks over”. Then trebles his turnover just after his first born. (06 to 07 66K).
Three years of that…then it drops off again to less than half.
You have been given a BIG house in Surrey…..and you realise you’re not working so much. The bro wants some cash (why not) and you have 800K sat in a Swiss Account ?
What does “Fatty Bastard” say ?
Well nothing really. He just (rather cleverly) does a “re hash” of what has been reported….and mostly likely given by him in the first place !
A basic question relating to the neonazi murders is why it took so long to realise the common factors and real reason for them i.e. hatred of Turks by Racist Germans. Was this incompetence or because they were protected for some reason? If protected why? Was it because the police shared their racist views or something even more convoluted?
Now as to Chevaline I think James is right to pose the question how it could fit. I am with you to a certain extent BB. We certainly have many required elements. The Molliers with the National Socialist leanings. “Iraqi Foreigners”. Metal Worker Unions connections with Saadam and Iraq. BND knowledge of source of large sums in Swiss accounts (how?) whilst how it comes to be there and why remains a mystery. However I still can’t see a convincing rationale or how it fits together.
It’s possible Mollier could have been on a mission to obtain some of that 800000. Although I still lean towards a planned rendezvous between a British asset (SAH) purporting to be anti Israeli/pro Iranian and neo/nazi link man with access to French contacts with specialized metallurgy/nuclear info. in return for big bucks. The underlying purpose of which was to enable MI6 to gain inside information on networks and routes so that the Iranian nuclear programme could be better understood and subverted if necessary. WBM being there as an MI5/6 officer or agent but possibly playing a role in convincing Mollier the arrangement was kosher and adding a further dimension in the aeronautics sphere.
If this were the case (pure speculation of course) who might want, be prepared and able to disrupt it? First someone with the necessary skills and facilities. Someone who work unmolested in France and crucially someone who had been able through intelligence to be aware of what was going on and where the meeting would take place. Ostensibly they must be friendly to Britain (or WBM would also have been shot) but not unduly afraid of upsetting them.
Could it have been a wholly French exercise as punishment for a British operation on French soil without proper notification that could endanger its middle east nuclear big deals? It’s possible but unlikely. More likely they would have used existing diplomatic channels to call it off.
However I am convinced the killings could not have happened in the way they did without French SS active knowledge and facilitation and a third or fourth state probably ordered it to prevent what they saw as active help to Iran or even a threat and warning not to try to muscle in on already existing secret intelligence channels.
OK so this is only one suggested scenario but I throw it into the den for all you wolves to tear apart.
Tim….
As long as you “throw it in the den” AND use paragraphs !
I am only use to reading “check lists”.
They do that so that us “four bars” can read ’em.
We’re not good at reading see !
Or is it “info” is quicker to understand in “bullet form” !
Tim…
The thing I have about “conspiracy” theories is…they are all a bit rubbish !
As in JFK !
Rubbish ! Any “idiot” can see that the “film” released (A YEAR LATER Doh !) was rubbish.
I guess then “film” was new, so didn’t suspect you could alter it.
Now we “wonder” what can…and can’t be done. And so suspect EVERYTHING as “conspiracy”.
Of course we can not (and should not) believe everything we are told (Maggie said, we don’t deal with the (p)IRA…but they were) AND didn’t Bernay’s “invent” the Commie’s in S.America.. I think so.
In Chevaline we are being “fed” a line. But what line ?
We have simply no “info”.
Take the Iraq deal with Bombardier that was lost to Boeing ?
What “deals” were done there ?
Take the Neo Nazi’s.
Do we know who is involved ?
Take “anything”.
Do we know.
Look at “Fatty” on MZT. Can you actually get anything out of him other than “I wanna see the kidz” !!!!
Feck no. He’s saying “nothing”.
I go for the Paradoxes listed by you James:
Pro og unpro!
The contradictionary reportings about BMW 4×4 and a motorbike. And wasn’t there a third whehicle i mean to remember?
The statements of witnesess
The time Schedules which didn’t match
And sure all the untold background Things about Money, education etc.
And I still can’t believe the story of 8 hours before the youngest were found
Since I haven’t been here long I would like to know if all other escape-routes downhill are now out of concern?
I tried to translate some important questions that were asked by “conspiracy tgeorists” right after the killing series.
Why there was a TV/movie group in front of the caravan of the two “suucided” neonazi killers when it started to burn?
Why there was a TV/movie group in front of the suspects house when it started to burn?
Why did Zschäpe ignite/bomb/burn down their house but at the same time she leaves important evidence (not damaged by the bomb/fire! What a miracle!) in her house so that police could easily find it and present it?
Why was a secret service agent who worked for BND as a covert agent in that internet cafe at the very same time when the Turkish owner of that cafe was killed?
Why did that assassination series suddenly stop in 2006 when that very secret service agent had been uncovered by journalists?
Why did it take so many years before we first heard regarding a neonazi background?
Why did the two killers commit suicide with a rifle? Do you kill yourself with a rifle or rather with a gun? Why did one of them kill himself with a shot into his breast? Suicide or suiceded? How could they set their caravan on fire after they did kill themselves?
Why didnt they release their propaganda video (they produced a propaganda video of their killings) right after the assassinations in 2006? Why would you produce such a video but never release it?
Why are they talking regarding a death list with names of 88 politicians now? They had 10 years time to kill only one on their death list. Usually terrorists would threaten their suggested victims or they would threaten the general public.
The killed police woman grew up in the same village in Thüringen as the uncovered secret service agent and her killers. Did she know him or did she know too much?
Why did Beate Zschäpe – who successfully lived in “underground” for 2 decades – suddenly run to police shelter once she heard that her two friends killed and burnt themselves? Was she afraid that secret service could do the same to her?
Why did nobody of the neighbours hear any gun shots from that caravan where the two nazi tertorists shot themselves to death with a rifle?
Source in german:
http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nermorde
James
19 Jul, 2013 – 1:21 pm how can you still doubt this was a “professional job”? Perhaps you should change your name to “Thomas”? (Hopefully not “Judas”?) I think you may have borrowed my description of a “dynamic situation” back along – or a fluid, mobile one – yet despite at least 50% of the victims/targets and vehicles moving in open space, the attacker(s) managed to get at least 15 of 25 (now 21!) bullets into people, with we are told only ONE relatively old Luger, which would in addition have required at least two magazine changes, and all completed in one relatively short (30 secs) continuous burst of gun fire. So now find me a “non-professional” who could do that, leaving aside all the other motivational, psychological and logistical factors.
In my book it is 100% proved this was an experienced and cold blooded killer. Only a psychopath, which I dismiss for reasons previously stated, or military style operative fits the bill. Terrorist possibly but if it had been, French and British response would have been quite different I am sure, which rather rules this one out as well.
Recog…
As I recall, “og” is “and” in a certain country ?
Is it not.
Just thought I’d ask. I have a guy from Norway I fly with.
About “education” and “money”. I only know “education costs”. So do flights to Dubai and “hotel bills”.
Looking through “the books” Al Hilli could afford neither.
But he went.
So where did he stay ?
It is a great story to meet a girl in DXB and bring her back.
But on 20K a year turnover pre tax ?????
I can’t buy into that.
BB
And why did Kurt Cobain choose rifle instead of a handgun?
Fark me Tim
BEFORE…I try and read it, for feck sake “write in paragraphs”.
English is my “home tongue”. But for many it may not
James
Correct about the country.
And I agree with your points concerning income and spendings
Tim
I can’t read it ! Sorry.
I got to you saying I was “Thomas” or “Judas” and I lost interest.
Then you wrote “dynamic situation” and said it was “your invention”. I just stopped there and then.
I am “judas” because I “doubt” ? Or “question”.
Mate, the important thing he is to “find the truth”. Not find what fits your scenario OR “mind default”.
I say again. I am a professional pilot. I fly. I fly small jets into “funny” runways. I have to think. I’ll repeat that “I HAVE TO THINK”.
If I am wrong… I expect that my PNF will tell me (or make me think). It is how it works. ONE guy can not “just believe” he is right.
YOU my friend have “ONE” scenario…and YOU are sticking to it. That my friend is “DANGEROUS” beyond measure.
DO not have a “closed mind”.
NB… Which I think you have in all truth.
James,
This is for you (links) what i had promised regarding the killed people in the “bosporus murder” series. The killed were all linked to a family clan in Diyarbakir where we got the center of the european drug market organised by PKK. CIA’s PKK.
This war in middle east is all about drugs and money. Sometimes you need killers when another family clan or another secret service begins to become a competitor in drug smuggling. There are no random victims. Neither the al Hillis nor Mollier were random victims.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-262462-pkk-finances-terrorism-through-drug-trafficking.html
http://stopthedrugwar.org/speakeasy/2008/apr/22/european_pressure_turkey_must_fi#comment-13273
Recog.
My “co” use to say “og” when he was trying to find the English for ATC. It is surprising what you remember.
As for “money and income”. It is a “strange one”.
You have a good year…and go DXB. I get that.
But you bring back “a wife”….and are not earning.
DXB pre 2006 etc was good. Not like the UK.
I was “earning” there. I even had a “House Boy” (Indian).
I was only a “First Officer” but I could afford it. So a Dentist !
They were “making it”.
And then to Surrey…with 20K per year ! I don’t buy it.
Off topic
ReCognito19 Jul, 2013 – 2:55 pm
BBAnd why did Kurt Cobain choose rifle instead of a handgun?
Ask Tom Grant.
Or ask:
Filmmaker Nick Broomfield decided to investigate the theories for himself, and took a film crew to visit a number of people associated with Cobain and Love, including Love’s estranged father, Cobain’s aunt, and one of the couple’s former nannies. Broomfield also spoke to Mentors’bandleader El Duce, who claimed that Love had offered him $50,000 to kill Cobain, C Love: “El, I need a favour of you. My old man’s been a real asshole lately, I need you to blow his fucking head off.” El Duce: “Are you serious”? C Love: “Yeah, I’ll give you $50,000 to blow his fucking head off.” El Duce: “I’m serious if you are”. CLove: “Where can I reach you”? El Duce: “You can reach me here”. Then passed a polygraphadministered by polygraph expert Edward Gelb.[40] Though El Duce claimed that he knew who killed Kurt, he failed to mention a name, and offered no evidence to support his assertion. However, during the interview, he mentioned speaking to someone called Alan, before quickly saying,”I mean, my friend” then laughing, saying, “I’ll let the FBI catch him”. Broomfield incidentally captured El Duce’s last interview, as he died days later when he passed out on train tracks and was run over.
Bb
Blue..
I get the PKK and what they are doing.
And even the Paris shootings.
But I can’t see Al Hilli in it.
For one “he’s too behind the curve”.
Give me “where the 800K came from” and we have a starting point.
I can see too many “chances” to get him (al Hilli) or them (Mollier and Al Hilli.. at separate times)…and it would “cause” less “fuss”.
I can see the “neo Nazi” thing…but here I can not buy into it.
Blue…
I have met “Love”. She is a nutter.
I was merely “there”. We had brought a plane into Detroit.
And then had to go to XXXXX with the cast of XXXX for their “wrap” (or is it “rap” I am never sure) party (the end of the filming).
A GV (Gulfstream) takes so many…”it may have been her” trying to “hop a ride”. (US law etc)
A “mad” conversation. Lots of lipstick. Loud. And the local “FBO” staff.
So I would treat “fact” from her as….. “pinch of salt” !
BB
“Kurt was killed”. I feared such a reply from you, which is why I won’t give you anymore examples of suicidal riffle-choosers 🙂
I think that you have some interesting points concerning the dönermorde, but the links to chevaline is way out of line from my point of view. The same with the sudden link to Vikernes.
FART BASTARD !!!!
Can we ask you some questions ???
You “say” you knew them (and yet also worked away in KSA ?)
Blue…
I have to agree if Recog.
There is nada firm to connect them.
James:
Has the other route down hill been ruled out as a possibility? And what happened to RAF-man and the fremch photographer? I recall a lot of contradictions in their statements!
James
Sorry for asking, but haven’t time for reading back all I missed
I would contend it is easier to rule things out than to rule things in when secrecy so abounds. I think, and have always thought, it a possibility CIA could be involved which makes BB’s posts (and perhaps some of mine) so interesting. Again this is complete speculation but what may be taken as making this feasible?
Well first the close relationship between Mossad and Cia in relation to Iran. The evidence has been produced here of joint operations to frustrate Iranian nuclear plans, which both in terms of physical and technological subversion, America has used Israel as its agent, and provided it with advanced surveillance and other assets. We have seen how Germany has actively supplied Israel with nuclear submarines capable of being modified to carry nuclear cruise missiles. French links with Israel and oil producing states are well established. Britain and American SIA’s work intimately together through CIA/NRA and MI6/Cheltenham. It is a complicated intricate matrix of common goals and private interests, sometimes pulling together, sometimes straining apart often on quite personal terms as with the run up to the 2003 Iraq invasion between Tenet and Dearlove on behalf of their respective leaders.
CIA has a long history of killing people it doesn’t like or sees a threat either directly at arms length. It is also prepared to infringe sovereign territory when it considers necessary as with the OBL exercise in Pakistan leaving aside all the other examples from the recent past.I surely don’t need to give chapter and verse? In other words it is capable of doing it.
Nor is it afraid to undertake startlingly outrageous undertakings of which JFK’s assassination and 9/11 are astounding proven examples. An illustration of the German/American connection is provided by the sacking of Allen Dulles CIA chief in 1961 following the Bay of Pigs fiasco. It is said he hated Kennedy for this yet low and behold Johnson appoints him to the Warren Commission that is tasked with finding LHO wholly and only responsible for the assassination despite the opinion of Jim Garrison that he had nothing at all to do with it.
Maybe it’s worth asking the question why European allies have been so silent and accommodating in respect to the American Government’s interpretation of these outrages and why they have not sought to reveal the truth. It must be because politically, economically and militarily Europe sees its interests inextricably bound up with theirs and a need not to upset its powerful ally. This could provide reason enough to co-operate with an American action on French soil and not to reveal the true perpetrators of Chevaline or reason for it. I say COULD not did.
Struggling President Hollande objected to CIA/NRA surveillance of the EU and presumably France. It was a rather weak gesture that was quickly counter attacked by revelations about its own surveillance activity that quickly shut him up. It highlights the way in which elected politicians are in hock to these powerful agencies. (MI6 has a budget of over two BILLION pounds!) And it is tiny in comparison to the CIA. In practice it follows its own agenda and politicians think it more prudent not to enquire and not to know. It is why President and Prime Minister can give assurances in the Chevaline case that mean very little in practise if these organisations are involved.
Then finally to put Chevaline into global perspective somewhat, I read yesterday that Brazil has 50,000 RECORDED murders annually. So why should we fret so over just four in such a “far-a-way” country?
Oh and I almost forgot: the preference for old German weaponry for under cover operations!
Tim
Couldn’t read the bigger post, so caught the later one only.
“the preference for old German weaponry for under cover operations!”
By whom ? Anyone that can get hold of them…or a specific group.
As I recall there are “lots” hanging around.
James
I do not link the german killing series with chevaline and never did. What i said is that the involvement of secret service agents, false evidence and false witnesses looks like a carbon copy of chevaline, as if the same agency had planned and executed those killings.
As a matter of fact we know the killers of the german series and we know to what organisation they belong to.
Secondlx i did define a circle of connectiond from al Hillis father to Iraq, from Iraq to Saddam Hussein, from Saddam Hussein to the French metal workers union, from the french metal workers union to funding of french neonazi parties, from neonazi parties to Christian Mollier and from Christian Mollier AND from the french metal workers union to Sylvain Mollier, and finally from Sylvain Mollier to al Hilli (at least they had met each other while they died). In the background of that circle there is the geneva account that due to BND there is a saddam fund in geneve where the french metal workers union keeps their secret funds, too (read my previously given links regarding the scandal of french metal workers union’s secret money in geneva).
With all my previous investigations this is the most sane and most complete logic that connects all participants in chevaline including their geneva account and the fears and threats that saad received previously.
I do not say that i found the stone of wisdom, but i follow logic and facts only and i try to eliminate false evidence presented by the media and by eric so far.