Gay Marriage and the Joy of Living 195

I received an email from someone called Kevin accusing me of having refused to state my position on gay marriage. I have never been asked, but am in fact entirely in favour. I think human relationships are essential to human happiness, and I am not in the least concerned about the gender combinations or sexual practices in which people find happiness. Nor am I obsessed with the number two. I have no objection to polyandry or polygamy (or the gay equivalent) either. The key thing is that people enter and leave relationships entirely consensually, once of an age to consent. I do not believe in matters of tax, immigration or any other governmental sphere, any combination of family life should be favored over any other.

My own family life is “conventional” and very happy, but I do not make the mistake of believing one model fits all.

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195 thoughts on “Gay Marriage and the Joy of Living

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  • doug scorgie

    Off topic I know; but a wake-up call if you support the Scttish independence referendum:

    The UK taxpayer is to pay £50m to commemorate the start of WW1. I have no doubt that Cameron will use this national tribute to the fallen (with the BBC and others doing their bit) to remind the country of, how working together as a united kingdom, we achieved success.

    This British jingoistic celebration is being held in the summer of 2014 while the Scottish Independence referendum is to be held in the autumn of the same year.

    No doubt the Scottish Labour; Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties will be out in force in the major cities flying the union jack. It has been suggested that all town halls throughout the UK should fly the union jack at half-mast.

    There is a newly formed “think tank” called BRITISH FUTURE which I suspect has been set up to try and scupper the Scottish independence referendum.

    Sunder Katwala, director of BRITISH FUTURE, told the Guardian: “The centenary of the Great War should be the next great national moment bringing us together as the jubilee and Olympics did this year.”

    Binita Mehta (the first intern of BRITISH FUTURE) says on Conservative Home:

    “I’ve always had a bit of a thing about Union Jacks. On arriving at Warwick University three years ago, I was a bit shocked when my new Union Jack laptop bag was ridiculed for being “a bit BNP”. I’ve always been proud to be British, maybe I got it from my dad who was given refuge in Britain when the Ugandan Asians were kicked out by Idi Amin. So getting accused of being “a bit BNP” sounded like the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard.
    “If I were going to university this year, I would not get the same reaction. The summer of 2012 has changed that. There’s a new sense of patriotism around.”

    Binita Mehta works at the think-tank British Future and is chair of Hertfordshire Conservative Future.

    Another member of British Future is Rachael Jolly. She talks about Danny Boyle’s ‘…uniquely British’ opening ceremony for this summer’s Olympics.”
    “He is tapping into something which we, as a nation, care about. British Future polling shows that across Britain, not just in England (as some sceptics argue), there is immense pride in our green pleasant lands – from the Lake District, to Snowdonia and the Highlands.”

    From The Irish Times (12/10/12):
    “Could the Great War centenary affect Scots independence vote?”

    “Unionist fervour in Scotland was strong in the early months of [WW1] war. However, Scots learned after the war that 26 per cent of their menfolk who had joined up died in uniform, compared with 12 per cent for the rest of the British army, leaving a bitter aftertaste.”

  • forthurst

    You are entiely missing the point. ‘gay’ marriage is concerned with ‘cultural marxism’ not ‘human rights’ etc.
    homosexual relationships are already recognised by the state and that is needed or most want (check out stephen hough’s blog in the dt). you need to understand how cultural marxism is used to 1. indentify a ‘minority’ 2. proclaim an adversity suffered by the minority at the hands of evil white hterosexual males 3. ploclaim the need for laws concerning the need for ‘equal’ or greater ‘rights’ for the minority and the need for thought crime laws against the usual suspects 4. get the minority steamed up through special university depts created for that purpose 5. change the laws 6. move onto the next ‘minority’ etc.

    what is this all about: simply to undermine western culture. check it out, there’s plenty on the web. Why do you not have free speech? why can you be locked up for saying the ‘wrong’ thing? why do employers have to employ people who are not english who are completely useless such that entry requirements have to be lowered to fir them in or women who are constantly on maternity leave etc.

    what next? the archbishop of canterbury together with the rest of the establishment celebrating a ‘gay marriage’ in westminster abbey between a one legged black lesbian and a transgendered descendent of royalty with the bbc in ful gloat and shrieks of merriment emanating from n. london. it is an attack on our culture of which the established church is significant part.

  • Jon

    Jimmy, you can say you’ve been “moderated by the pinkos as usual”, but you know full well we have an auto-spam device here. You are not being deliberately censored, even if you wish you were!

    On incidence of homosexuality, WP is a good read. I think my 6% came from this:

    HM Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry completed a survey to help the Government analyse the financial implications of the Civil Partnerships Act (such as pensions, inheritance and tax benefits). They concluded that there were 3.6 m gay people in Britain—around 6% of the total population or 1 in 16.66 people.

    On priests, I didn’t say religious confusion, I said sexual confusion; the difference is important. That it might be due to stymied sexual development due to celibacy requirements is just a theory, but I’d have thought quite a reasonable one, since something has prevented sexual attraction to adults. This is a good read for causes – several are proposed. The section on “Clerical celibacy” reflects both views.

    Although I wasn’t looking for this in particular, I found this:

    Research on pedophilia in general shows a majority of abusers identify themselves as heterosexual.

  • Jon

    @forthurst – I think it would be the right thing to do, from liberal principles, to prevent the tyranny of the majority. But, support is better than you state. In the UK, support for gay marriage is higher than opposition to it (ref).

  • Jon

    @forthurst – I should say that the legislation will not force religions to perform marriages they do not wish to. A church I used to belong to (C of E) refused plenty of heterosexual couples, usually on the grounds that they were not sufficiently devout.

  • JimmyGiro

    Jon wrote:

    “On priests, I didn’t say religious confusion, I said sexual confusion; the difference is important. That it might be due to stymied sexual development due to celibacy requirements is just a theory, but I’d have thought quite a reasonable one, since something has prevented sexual attraction to adults.”

    Are you suggesting a priest or nun, change their sexual proclivities as adults, in situ? If so, that would contradict the idea that homosexuals are born that way, hence would make it imperative that children be protected from such nurture.

  • Jon

    @Jimmy – your key thesis is that gays and lesbians are attracted to the Catholic priesthood and/or that there is a link between homosexuality and paedophilia. However the Spiked! article which you put forward as supportive doesn’t mention either of these – what were you trying to show by it?

  • Jon

    @Jimmy – well, I put forward no theories on nuns per se, since they were not – as far as I know – implicated in the sex abuse scandal. That said, I think it is reasonable to assert that the processes of sexual development can be harmed in women too.

    In the (abusing) priesthood, my thesis is that men are attracted to children because their sexual development was prevented from maturing normally. So, the sexual identity of the (abusing) priest is confused, and he finds himself attracted to children not adults, and possibly to boys even if that would not have been his normal developmental preference (see earlier about most paedophiles identifying as heterosexual).

    I agree it is possible that a proportion of priests were genuinely gay – I am not asserting that gay people cannot become child abusers. But I am asserting that given two well-adjusted, happy adults, one straight and one gay, there is no greater chance of either becoming an abuser of children.

  • JimmyGiro

    “I agree it is possible that a proportion of priests were genuinely gay – I am not asserting that gay people cannot become child abusers. But I am asserting that given two well-adjusted, happy adults, one straight and one gay, there is no greater chance of either becoming an abuser of children.”

    This is the crux, and why I said the stats need to be gathered regarding the sexuality of all priests, and the sexuality of all pederast priests. I noticed that the link you gave regarding what sexuality the abusers declared themselves to be, also stated that over 80% of the victims were boys.

    Now, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck, even if it thinks it’s a goose.

  • Clark

    It’s all so easy when you’re a traditionalist. Each person is either ‘a man’ or ‘a woman’, and on that basis you can decide whether they are allowed get married or not.

    But nature is messy and not so easily classified:

    ‘Intersex, in humans and other animals, is the presence of intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male. This is usually understood to be congenital, involving chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies, such as diversion from typical XX-female or XY-male presentations, e.g., sex reversal (XY female, XX male), genital ambiguity, or sex developmental differences. An intersex individual may have biological characteristics of both the male and the female sexes. Intersexuality as a term was adopted by medicine during the 20th century, and applied to human beings whose biological sex cannot be classified as clearly male or female’

    ‘However, some individuals have a combination of these chromosomes, hormones, and genitalia that do not follow the traditional definitions of “men” and “women”. In addition, genitalia vary greatly or individuals may have more than one type of genitalia. Also, other bodily attributes related to a person’s sex (body shape, facial hair, high or deep voice, etc.) may or may not coincide with the social category, as woman or man. A survey of the research literature from 1955–2000 suggests that as many as one in every hundred individuals may have some intersex characteristic’

  • Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    Every opportunity I have to ask the question; How does gays getting married adversely affect you Mr/Mrs churchgoer? I get vague and poorly thought out responses. I thought this issue was exclusively American because we are such righteously appointed Guardians of sexual morality/hypocrisy.

  • Mark Golding - Children of Conflict

    Many good people are so succeptable to the propaganda of the main stream media. Only a small percent of people know what is really going on.

    If the 38% – 46% solid base of American and European people the puppet politicians rely on to support their desperate game of terror, control and conflict, cannot be enlightened and told what to do, then the direction we turn in time will not be forward, it will be skewed into a circle of control and conflict. That circle will only be broken when our world fails to support life itself. That is a fact.

    It is not a complicated message. It is a test of your conscious now. The circle was conceived to support you. to support your children and their children. Then it will self-implode and humans eventually die out like dinasaurs, attempting to survive by killing each other. That is also fact.

    Knowledge is key. It is like a pandemic. Talk to people, communicate with each other. Educate each other. Use passion. Express emotion. Encourage involvement. Diffuse fear. Move the message forward even it the darkest of places – do not let the circle close. It is the only way.

  • oddie

    at least the daily mail has broken the deafening silence on this one.

    includes quotes from the great judith curry, chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology. (from wikipedia: Curry is the co-author of Thermodynamics of Atmospheres and Oceans (1999), and co-editor of Encyclopedia of Atmospheric Sciences (2002), as well as over 140 scientific papers. Among her awards is the Henry G. Houghton Research Award from the American Meteorological Society in 1992) curry has become increasingly sceptical about “catastrophic anthropogenic global warming” in recent years:

    13 Oct: Daily Mail: David Rose: Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released… and here is the chart to prove it
    The new data, compiled from more than 3,000 measuring points on land and sea, was issued quietly on the internet, without any media fanfare, and, until today, it has not been reported…
    Professor Judith Curry, who is the head of the climate science department at America’s prestigious Georgia Tech university, told The Mail on Sunday that it was clear that the computer models used to predict future warming were ‘deeply flawed’.
    Even Prof Jones admitted that he and his colleagues did not understand the impact of ‘natural variability’ – factors such as long-term ocean temperature cycles and changes in the output of the sun…
    Not that there has been any coverage in the media, which usually reports climate issues assiduously, since the figures were quietly release online with no accompanying press release – unlike six months ago when they showed a slight warming trend…
    Like Prof Curry, Prof Jones also admitted that the climate models were imperfect: ‘We don’t fully understand how to input things like changes in the oceans, and because we don’t fully understand it you could say that natural variability is now working to suppress the warming. We don’t know what natural variability is doing.’…–chart-prove-it.html

    the manmade global warming scam has discredited science for a generation.

  • oddie

    pielke jr is professor in the Environmental Studies Program and a Fellow of the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES) where he served as Director of the Center for Science and Technology Policy Research at the University of Colorado at Boulder from 2001 to 2007. Pielke was a visiting scholar at Oxford University’s James Martin Institute for Science and Civilization, and author of The Climate Fix: What Scientists and Politicians Won’t Tell You About Global Warming):

    Oct 12: Denver Post: Roger Pielke Jr: Guest Commentary: Climate spin is rampant
    But there is one group that should be very concerned about the spreading of rampant misinformation: the scientific community. It is, of course, thrilling to appear in the media and get caught up in highly politicized debates. But leading scientists and scientific organizations that contribute to a campaign of misinformation — even in pursuit of a worthy goal like responding effectively to climate change — may find that the credibility of science itself is put at risk by supporting scientifically unsupportable claims in pursuit of a political agenda.

  • Katz

    I don’t say this as a mere quibble, since I think it ties in with the comments of Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who pointed out that most of those involved in perpetrating the ‘paedophilia’ scandal within the Catholic Church, were homosexuals. This is why I think we should get into the habit [in a non-sartorial sense] of calling it ‘pederasty’.

    The predominance of same-sex child abusers in the Catholic priesthood may indeed be true.

    However, if it is true, it would nevertheless be rash to assert that homosexuals are more likely to be child abusers than heterosexuals. The historical context is important. Until quite recently, in most countries, homosexual practices were illegal, often exciting severe punishment. For men living in fear of these regimes, the Church may well have been perceived as a welcoming community, partly immune from the scrutiny of the state.

    I recall in the early days of the AIDS epidemic in the US, one of the most vulnerable groups to the disease were Catholic priests, suggesting a very large population of practising homosexuals among their number. Some of these chaps may also have been interested in boys.

    However, in the general community it is well known that the most dangerous sexual predator is your dad. And most dads molest daughters, not sons.

  • Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    “Knowledge is key” Clearly, Mark. But how to motivate the passive, which are Legion. It seems like flailing at Windmills. It’s poetic and Romantic, but aside from the symbolic hard-on some get about that sensation, what is the outcome? The courage to stand alone despite the throngs who abhor you, while retaining confidence in the rightness of your stand, should be reward enough for yourself. The question is; Is that enough?

  • Jay

    hristian Concern and the World Congress of Families hosted an inspiring marriage conference on Wednesday 23 May, despite extraordinary opposition to the event taking place.

    Freedon of speech.

    Do we not all worry for the future as did our parents and there parents before. We may be right.

    As we know the there is an agenda why don`t we all calm down and sort this out.

    THe un-liberal libtards amongst us are worse than the worst fascists, for pushing their leftist super diverse free too make and show and film about almost any subject and show it amongst the masses but hey its ok.

    I spoke to a old gentleman on the subject of child pornography and how its the next taboo and he said oh can`t they just use actors.

    So what is the problem you may ask?

    THe fact that the Libtards are not even open to discussion, as the link above proves.

  • Jay

    @ Katz

    Yes Katz, it is a depraved society and those dads you refer to have got it wrong. So how are we helping them get it right?

  • Rob Royston

    While our World and Society is being destroyed round about us, the media and this blog has everybody up a cul-de-sac chewing the fat about sexual offendors and deviants.

  • Jon

    @Jay – by supplying that link, are you asserting that the society we share should be governed by your religious principles? That doesn’t sound fair to the most of us who do not share your religion – or your traditionalist reading of it.

    THe un-liberal libtards amongst us are worse than the worst fascists

    Ah, I see. People who disagree with you are retards, nice. Hopefully Neil, who wants a civilised debate, will ask you to tone it down.

    In the meantime, you’ve broken Godwin’s Law, so I’ll claim my fiver please.

  • Phil

    Jon 14 Oct, 2012 – 10:15 am
    “…you’ve broken Godwin’s Law…”

    Pedant’s corner:

    He hasn’t. Jay mentioned fascists. Godwin’s Law requires reference to Hitler or Nazi. Now I’ve gone and done it. Although I haven’t ‘broken’ anything.

  • nevermind

    Is it not the nature of catholicism that holds the clue here? Its secularity, cosy internal structures of self control and repentance, fear, loathing hell fire and damnation against those sinners that has perpetuated paedophilia and same sex relations ships at the same time. For it is the environment we adapt to and we are rebellious, we always try and find a way to circumnavigate assumptions of moral and greater good, for our own private special rules and regulations, do as I say not as I do.

    Its always been nuture and nature, so if pirates dressed up as women and had same sex relationships was not down to them being gay, just as some sexual relationships in prison are not formed by homosexuals alone, that hetero sexual’s are also having their urges calmed, makes you theory somewhat flimsy Jimmy Giro. Having the same genetic make up and urges as ape’s really explains our calamity, we are not developed to accept others like we do accept our own and being potty for cute cuddly animals does not count.

    That paedophilia thrives in strictly dogmatic religious environs has shown us that religious moral veracity was wrong, that preaching of these morals, whilst going against them in such numbers, has only resulted in secreting these immoral practises and making them the realm of the fantasising psychopath, who can use their personal powers and societal standing to divert the moral outcry of their pederast actions.

    To make out that all gays are potential child abusers is wrong. But the facts show us that if you restrict natural sexual urges with false morals and doctrines, whether its a church or a social service, a private club like the BBC, or keep human physically confined, as on a ship or in prison, a submarine or for long journeys in space, we find that our apparent intelligence does not preclude us switching off our senses and act as the animals we really are.

    And should anybody ever feel the urge to come out here, feeling the need to splash their natural afflictions all over the world, then that is OK with us, isn’t it Jimmy?

    We have to face up to the fact that religions have promoted morals that were not solely concerned with our spiritual development, that their moral guidance on life sex and everything, their relations to power, aloof from the rest of us, war wrong. It has coloured societal development for hundreds of years and has now ended.

    We are living in new moral times and they are set by outrage and uncovering of past filth. Whether it will uncover all of it. I doubt that this moral cesspit we created will ever be filled in. If ever there was enough reason and the right time for a people’s Inquisition, its now.

    please lets not burn churches, just empty them of dead morals and empty hearts, lets turn them into places of speeches and debates, change all seating into rounds, turn pulpits into floral displays. If we want to ring bells for the solstice and not for remembrances of murder and maiming, so be it. If god is in all of us, then these churches are ours.

  • Rose

    Mark and Ben – Yes it’s a toughie isn’t it – how to effectively spread the message without it being counter-productive – one is either regarded as a swivel-eyed loon and treated with amused contempt or as a dangerous subversive and “dealt with”.
    But I take comfort in the parables of the mustard seed and the yeast in the bread working away unseen but producing huge results.
    So let’s keep trucking – don’t despair.

    “Here endeth the lesson” (silly face insert)

  • Phil

    Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version) 14 Oct, 2012 – 12:31 am
    “I thought this issue was exclusively American because we are such righteously appointed Guardians of sexual morality/hypocrisy.”

    In my experience this is not a hot topic on the streets of the UK. Although it apparently persists in the poorly attended churches and JimmyGiro’s home. But then again maybe I’m just a cultural marxist, pinkoe, feminist, fascist, atheist, duck loving, gullible libtard who can’t spot a pedophile from a goose.

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